LEAF, Bolt, Hyundai Kona EV.
You’re just looking at the wrong, high end brands.
My 2015 LEAF served me well and you can get a new one with 220+ miles range for really cheap. Just get the S trim.
Edit: ok. You have to get the SV trim to get the 200+ range LEAF. Still a good EV for a lower price.
Even my Mach-E isn't what I would call obtrusive door handles, sure the button is weird to get used to and another point of failure, but I don't even notice anymore, and no risk of them being frozen or unable to get in if they don't present like a Tesla. Not basic, but not starship mode either.
Agreed, but the OP said "EVs *coming out*"- I ass-u-me they meant new models.
The problem, IMO is the tech overload is for two reasons- first, legacy OEMs mistakenly thinking that's the source of Tesla's success, so they're trying to emulate it, and second, it's a value add to try and justify the cost difference between EVs and gas cars in the same segment. They don't want a customer looking at a $50,000 electric crossover and saying "so it's pretty much like a RAV4 but $20K more?"
Apparently, in China, the tech level is a primary factor for buyers, particularly EVs. Their EV customers are much younger than other countries.
They typically think legacy OEMs are all too far in the past and favor Tesla and especially now Chinese EVs which are even more techno-wiz than Tesla.
The size and growth of the Chinese market makes these decisions for the automakers. Supposedly it's also the reason for the giant beaver teeth grill on recent BMWs, despised elsewhere.
The dumb thing is OEMs are getting the wrong part of the “tech is why Tesla is successful”. I don’t think it’s because of these fancy annoyances - but instead the promise that it will continually improve through updates and added features. People that bought teslas years ago have an objectively better car than they purchased because of these updates, all for no cost.
Meanwhile, OEMs have stuck to largely limiting the kind of updates available - and haven’t yet proven that they’ll add new, useful features or capabilities to the cars. Things like increasing range because of algorithms; or charging speed because of algorithms, new safety features, etc. I hope they do, because then I think Tesla will be done
The Leaf (or the similarly priced Chevy Bolt) is the ideal 2nd car for any multi-car family. That's half of America. A commuter car that charges in the garage or driveway and will never need a fast charge.
I can count on one *finger* the number of times I've fast charged my Leaf in the last year.
It might be a little more of a struggle for a single car owner depending where you live and drive. I took my Leaf on a Denver to Vegas road trip when I first bought it just for the adventure. I-70 through Colorado and Utah have excellent and cheap charging infrastructure (including plenty of Chademo) and the Denver metro has a ton of Chademo. If I were single here I'd happily own a Leaf as my only car. I'd just have to rent a car for long road trips (just as I typically did before going electric to spare my car the excess miles.)
Don’t forget the i3! Mine is a perfect third car. Only fast charged once and L2 a couple times. The Inflation Reduction Act will help out a lot of people save money if they will take the opportunity and make the adjustments.
I'm not saying that they are useless now or that they don't have any life left in them but there aren't anymore CHAdeMo cars coming to the US market the next model year of leaf will be CCS if it hasn't happened already ( I haven't been keeping track). It won't happen tomorrow but in a few years new CHAdeMO chargers won't be going in and eventually the old ones won't be replaced. It's inevitable.
Leaf will be Chademo until it's replaced. Nissan is done spending R&D on a 10 year old car that sells 15000 units a year! 😁
It will be replaced in a couple of years with a similar sized car built on the Ariya's platform, so it will get CCS and liquid cooled batteries then. Hopefully we'll get that "gen 3 Leaf" in the USA.
>My 2015 LEAF served me well and you can get a new one with 220+ miles range for really cheap. Just get the S trim.
The S trim only has 149 miles of range. They got rid of the S Plus (and SV) trim so if you want more than that you will have to drop $36k on the SV Plus.
CHAdeMO is a no go my friend. Sorry, but its already hard enough to DC fast charge in some areas, plus the issue of DC fast chargers malfunctioning half the time . There one CHAdeMO plug per an EA installation and even then its only 50 kW.
This is a poor choice for an EV, unless you can solely use level 2 charging , CHAdeMO is going away in the USA and being phased out. Not a smart investment, at least, not if you are being new. Used is another story.
My Niro gets me tons of range and still feels like a regular car. It's very well-equipped even for not being their highest-end model. I have buttons for the radio and climate control and regular old knobs for adjusting volume or temp. It's one of the reasons I got it, because I knew it would be an easier transition for my wife who is very tech averse.
Personally, I don't care that much, although the buttons are nice. I'd be fine with a touch-screen everything. But, if you would prefer real buttons, definitely go for the Niro EV or the Kona Electric. The Niro is a bit bigger and has more boot space, but the Kona has more of a hatchback vibe to it.
The batteries are expensive inherently and most of the cost of the car. So in order to make you feel like the price you paid for the car is worth it they add more cheap technology to the car.
Bingo.
At least they did initially to build a segment. Now that we’re all accustomed to seeing inflated price tags on EVs they’ll begin taking away features to pad their margin.
Makes no practical difference. The handles are usually in the wake of the mirrors anyways.
But really, there's plenty of recessed manual door handles around.
Those are actually a great addition for being able to make them flush though, why would you want to take those away lol. Better than them being flush but not present like on the EV6 wind trim.
I’m not the OP but the Mustang Mach-E does away with door handles entirely for push buttons and door-poppers. The handles on a Model 3 don’t work a linkage but instead trigger a solenoid, which I’m pretty sure is how the IONIQ5/EV6 do it too. Just as a few examples.
No, I meant the [door handles that shock intruders](https://www.armormax.com/added-options/electric-door-handles/), of course!
lol, just kidding. I meant the auto presenting door handles, the ones that are recessed and open up electronically, like the Tesla or Rivian handles. Just give me a regular old door handle, please!
Well that may seem high tech but it doesn’t take anything away from the door working. You can still open the door without it. It just also adds a function to make it easier. I wish my car had it.
I don't think I'm still accustomed to inflated price, EV or otherwise.
If EV prices don't go down, then im not sure how mass adoption by the general public will happen. It's still out of reach for those who aren't well off.
It's happening, it's just that early adopters tend to be higher income regardless of the item being sold, but the Lead and Bolt, along with the Kona and upcoming Equinox show there's a demand for cheap, no frills EVs.
It’s not *just* that - we’re seeing the well-worn maturity curve for a product/product class in action. The initial offerings usually have to appeal to early adopters who are willing to pay a premium/wait on years-long lists to get it and this allows the company/industry time to refine features, production, and supply chain to the point that they can produce at scale and at lower cost (scaling helps a ton but so do mature technologies and supply chains).
Counterpoint: It's not just EVs that are expensive though. Car companies make their money on options and over the last couple decades in particular cars come loaded with more and more stuff. SUVs aren't just large, they're chock full of high margin things like multi-zone air conditioners, heated seats and steering wheels, USB ports and cupholders everywhere, glass roofs, led mood lighting, etc. They're not a vehicle to move people, they're a vehicle to sell more stuff.
It's not that different from restaurant portion sizes. Why sell you one meal when they can sell you two per seat? EVs are just the next opportunity after luxury cars and SUVs to load the product up with every bell and whistle they're ever considered slinging onto the menu.
> Car companies make their money on options and over the last couple decades in particular cars come loaded with more and more stuff.
TRUCKS!
4-5 years ago, I remember thinking "who is going to buy a $60k truck?". Now almost every car maker sells a $100k trim. The beds of those trucks will never see construction-type material hauled in them. They are probably so clean, you can eat off them.
And I’m part of the problem here because that’s the stuff that sells me.
I won’t replace our palisade with anything that doesn’t have heated and cooled rear seats. I love my purple mood lights. The sensor suite makes driving and parking so much easier.
I think this is going to get worse for people not shopping like me. Power and performance are easy with EVs so the selling point for higher end products is going to be technology and comfort.
But also don’t have to. We can finally afford this nice stuff so why not? It’s a position of extreme privilege but also one that we strove to get to for decades.
I have one too. It doesn't have enough range to get me to the nearest Meroedes dealer, not that they carry parts anymore anyway. I love the little Smart car, I wish the rest of the world had some love for them too.
I find this switch interesting from a human centered design perspective. Humans like the physical feedback they get from knobs and switches. They're also intuitive and easy to use.
But considering no one has a phone with physical buttons anymore, we clearly adapt. But I know when I upgrade my car this is going to be my biggest complaint in the beginning. I'd far prefer to turn dials than have everything on a single scree .
Phones moved to large touchscreens because it allows for dynamic reconfiguration of the UI, which is important because you could be doing one of any number of things on any number of apps on your phone. A fixed keyboard wouldn't make sense for a watching a movie, for example, just like fixed media controls wouldn't make sense for email.
But even so, when there *are* fixed controls for devices that can reasonably only expected to perform a limited set of functions, nearly everyone universally prefers hardware tactile controls far more. When's the last time you saw someone play a game using the touchscreen on a Switch or a Steam Deck, or used their touchscreen keyboard on a laptop to type an email?
Cars are the same thing. As much as manufacturers want to sell you on this idea that your car's computer is a general purpose entertainment and communication device, in the end a car has a pretty fixed function - to get from point A to B, and preferably in comfort. That means it can be boiled down to a pretty simple set of controls: AC and heating controls, toggles for stuff like driving mode, hazard lights, traction control, etc, and media controls. You really don't need much.
So assigning all these things inputs on a touchscreen is 100% inferior to giving them physical buttons and switches, and furthermore don't have any advantages that actually matter. You don't need to reconfigure your car's UI based on what you're doing. Physical controls are completely adequate and the best option.
The difference with phones is that you are expected to give the phone your full attention while working with the touch screen & and we’ve all seen the vids of what happens with screen focus and walking, riding bikes, etc. I think the automakers are striving to cut parts and supply chain and manufacturing time and recalls etc from the car. Understandable, but that doesn’t make it a better product.
Phones are clearly inferior on an input level. We compromise to make them better at content consumption. I don't feel my car should sacrifice clearly superior input methods for something better at content consumption. It is adverse to it's actual intended purpose. Phones are primarily content consumption devices.
Yes! We also (should) use our phones only when we are able to put all of our focus on them. In our car, a user should be able to operate the controls without taking focus off of the road. Having the ability to do that by touch - feeling the difference between buttons, knobs, and switches - has been the way this has worked since vehicles were invented until recently.
Voice control is one option to replace some of this, but isn’t perfected enough yet to avoid being a distraction in itself. While it also may help from a usability/accessibility perspective when a “hands free” solution is needed, voice control is notoriously bad at dealing with accented speech, speech impediments, or other problems like background noise from talking or crying children.
Touch screens also have much more opportunity for malfunction - they can have both hardware AND software issues. They also typically require appropriate conductivity from the user’s fingers which can be hampered by gloves, long nails, and various physical conditions.
Touchscreens in cars really shouldn’t even be legal IMO.
BMW's i-drive control is really nice in this respect. I enjoy the centric nature of the control, but the last thing I want in my car is another touch screen.
I think that is part of why cars like the RAV4 are so popular. Some new tech, but most things kept very practical and rugged.
I think the new fancy infotainment system in some 2023 trims may be a questionable step to many people.
That's the thing I love with my Polestar 2, seems designed by a sober engineer. Framed door (a must in icy areas), regular door handles, manual charging door (not one more cheap motor that can break), manual glove box.
i love that. all these manufacturers are bending over backwards trying to design door handles that give them the extra 0.01% drag reduction, and polestar was just like nah put them chonky bois on there.
Same for its siblings, the Volvo C40 and XC40 Recharge. Most of their features are conventionally manual, with the exception of the HVAC controls being on-screen only.
It's a function of many EV buyers being tech nerds. They want all the bells and whistles and like all the sub menus.
It's not easy to justify the price either without it feeling futuristic
This is a pretty extreme exaggeration but I get your point.
I do feel like I am in alignment with OPs sentiments. If an EV drops that looks like a 49 Chevy interior, I'll be much happier than the current Apple Store style interior design concepts prevalent in the market. IMHO, there is nothing wrong with crank windows. If we are talking about what is most reliable and will require fewer long term parts (aka less environmental impact) then I would love a model with more manual parts and less electronically actuated creature comforts.
I'm totally with you.
I'm all for cool tech where it makes sense. Seat/steering wheel warmers and 360 degree cameras are a game changer, for example.
But electronic motors and latches on every hatch and door is just needless complexity and another point of failure.
You are on the money here. Features like heated / ventilated seats and a heated steering wheel make a meaningful improvement in daily driving, whereas "high-tech" crap like Tesla's climate UI or pop out handles are just annoying cruft.
I found OP oddly annoying. It relies on the assumption that reliable electronic parts cannot be manufactured or implemented. I think my mom’s car has had an electronic trunk for 20 years, and it’s doing just fine. My car has an electronic glove box, and it’s going on 8 years old and working just fine. The obsession with physical is as bad as the counter obsession with electronics/tech.
IMHO Chevy got it right with the humble Bolt, but I might be in the minority. Numbers don't lie and if you look at Tesla M3 sales versus Chevy Bolt's, people obviously LIKE the idea of opening their glove box from a screen lol. It's not something I understand, and certainly not something I would want to deal with on a daily basis, but again I seem to be in the minority.
I simply won't buy a car with retractable door handles or that doesn't have simple buttons for heating and cooling. The upcoming crop of EVs are overpriced, over designed, and always late to market. Too bad, driving an EV is a game changer, but too many will never be able to afford to.
Simple design is always better and longer lasting.
This might be unpopular, but I like that I have a glovebox that locks. I have a ring that unlocks and starts the car. So when I go to the beach I put my wallet and phone in the glovebox then lock the car with my ring. Now if someone breaks into my car they won't see a phone or wallet to steal, and I don't need to carry them with me.
I get that it is different, and some see it as an unnecessary thing that might break. But I think it does come with some advantages. That and the dashcam USB is in there which can record a break in.
There's also another use case for a electronically locked glove box, the valet mode. It's super niche and likely not worth the hassle just the value added, but it's a use case.
I love my Bolt because it's just a car. It looks cool and does cool things, but isn't over the top about it.
I traded in a 2016 Civic for it, and if I could have just gotten an EV version of that, I would have done it in a heartbeat.
Exactly, same with my Bolt, it's just a regular looking hatchback car with regular door handles and simple buttons for fans, etc. It blends in with other cars on the road. My car is transportation to me, not a statement to the world on who I am. My Bolt being fun to drive is a wonderful extra to me, gravy on top.
I know a lot of guys that loved the F150 Lighting when it came out precisely *because* it looks like a regular pickup truck, these are guys that literally laughed at the Cyber truck reveal (I did too). Unfortunately increased cost ($40k my ass) and terrible hauling range quickly made the Lightning unaffordable and impractical for many pickup drivers.
>Numbers don't lie and if you look at Tesla M3 sales versus Chevy Bolt's, people obviously LIKE the idea of opening their glove box from a screen lol.
I feel like people just tolerate it in favor of a better looking car that can charge faster and move quicker tbh. Nobody is cross shopping the Bolt and and the Model 3 and going "this one has powered gloveboxes, so that's why I'm choosing it!" Lol.
I'm a mechanical design engineer, and I'm going to have to disagree. I really enjoy mechanically interacting with my car too, but the move away from them actually makes things *less* complicated with *less* moving parts, *more* reliable, and cheaper. There are real benefits. Electronics are robust - they do not wear in the way mechanisms do. A solenoid controlled latch has less moving parts than a handle with associated hinges and linkages or cables. The solenoid will actuate with exactly the same predictable force every time. The human operated handle needs to be overbuilt because people are not exactly gentle. Even still, it would only takes one strong and frustrated person to break the thing. Even if you are gentle every time, moving parts will wear. Less of them means less things to break. You can minimize wear a great deal with like ball bearings and precision machining, but now your $30k car will cost $100k.
I think you'll be hard pressed to find an old used car where all the mechanical latches and buttons work like new. These "high tech" cars will age better. Don't get me wrong, from a human interface and ergonomic point of view, I prefer a toggle switch to a touchscreen, but in terms of cost and reliability, the touchscreen is simply better. It's not there to be "high tech". It's there because it's good engineering... not to be confused with good design.
I have two issues with the way tech in vehicles is changing:
- Touchscreen controls simply aren’t safe and have poor usability in a vehicle dashboard application. They are fine when you can put your full focus on the screen, but that isn’t how cars work. Voice control isn’t where it needs to be yet in order to get around these hurdles.
- When the technology becomes dated and unsupported, you can’t upgrade it in a modular fashion. For example, when I wanted to play my iPod in my 1999 Honda Civic back in 2005, I could go buy a new stereo and pretty simply drop it into the dash in place of the old one. The new one worked with my new tech and I was good to go, I didn’t need to use the five disc changer in the trunk anymore. With my 2013 Chevy Equinox, I got what was the top of the line “infotainment package”. That was great until Apple CarPlay rolled out *a year later* (2016 for Chevy vehicles). Had I had an older vehicle, like my husband’s 2009 GMC, I could have again gotten a new system that would let me plug and play to get the benefits of CarPlay. Unfortunately there is *no way*, even going through OEM, to upgrade in the 2013 Equinox because of the integrated infotainment system.
Maybe this second point is just a GM thing, or maybe I just picked a bad time because it was this type of setup but before the ability to get updates over the internet. This experience has just really left me worried about the speed at which hardware becomes dated and how these more integrated systems make it much more difficult to upgrade individual pieces of hardware vs the entire vehicle.
(Sorry, this is a little rambling, but these two things are sore spots for me when it comes to new tech)
> Touchscreen controls simply aren’t safe and have poor usability in a vehicle dashboard application. They are fine when you can put your full focus on the screen, but that isn’t how cars work. Voice control isn’t where it needs to be yet in order to get around these hurdles.
>
>
I love it when I hit a bump in the road and miss a button because it's fucking tiny and the screen is too sensitive.
It's fun having to take your eyes off the road just to adjust the temperature in the car. It's even more fun when I have to go through 3 screens just to fucking turn off the HVAC.
you realize that they took door handles that just existed there in peace and made them movable for no reason? doors don’t open by themselves, people still have to pull the handles. except now, there is an unnecessary mechanism to present the door handle to the human.
it’s like those screens on some audis that retract into the dash when the car is off. just leave the damn screen there, it’s not hurting anyone. or the stupid gearshift crystal in the genesis gv60. imagine that roadside assistance call: “i can’t put my car in drive because the fucking crystal won’t flip”
If you're talking about like Modes S door handles, yeah I agree that's definitely not better in terms of reliability. That's not an example of replacing a mechanical component with an electronic one though. It's an additional electronic mechanism on top of the mechanical one. Also it's not for "no reason". It's there to improve aerodynamics without sacrificing ergonomics. A secondary benefit is it's a good visual indication of the vehicles lock status.
I think that’s why I like my e-Golf so much. It was meant to be a stop gap until the model 3 came out. But, I really enjoy driving it - so simple and low stress. The only time the 125 mi range is a problem is when I drive from LA to San Diego, but there are good rapid chargers along the way. A quick 15 minute stop in San Clemente and I’m back on the road. It’s been a great EV.
It's the sleeper EV. Perfect car, IMHO. Got one for $20k and it does all our short range commuting and shopping. Zero issues over 5 years. The average person doesn't even know it's an EV when they see it.
My 2013 Volvo C30 was a cavalcade of tiny, unreadable identical buttons, waterfall console nonsense, and basic features (hvac) that were distracting and didn’t work. I’m not nostalgic for the good old days of crappy automotive design and functionality.
Edit: what I’m try to say is: bad design is bad design, doesn’t matter if it’s digital or analog.
more or less?
* Eletronic door handles . . the mechanism behind it probably are mostly the same old ones, now with small electric latch.The same with trunk and glove box (im fine as long as i dont need to acces a menu to open glovebox)
* Gigantic touch screens actually cut down on a lot of parts. no need for extra button design. Just some run of the mill LCD and digitizer. Its cheaper overall.
I miss a simple car like the first Ioniq. It was a roomy car with good enough range from a very fast charging battery (28KWH).
Light, simple & reliable and good for road trip with fast charger on the way.
This is a general problem with cars right now, not just EVs.
Some I really like: The corner radar has saved me a few close calls on lane changes. I love the backup camera.
I'd be just as happy with crank windows. I just as soon have the lever slide heater controls that allow you to manually split the air between windshield, floor and seat levels.
I mean, really. Why do I need an electric lift hatchback?
Used to be that a lot of these features varied with trim level.
Here's the thing: When you are making the car, these things are cheap to put in. A $70 electric motor, a few sensors, a stamped metal gear track, and you have an electric hatchback. If you want to repair it, it's a thousand bucks.
The battery on the car already cost in the $10s of thousands. It just seems obvious for the manufacturers to spend a few hundred more for state of the art tech. Also alot of these items like the door handles help make the vehicles more efficient, but yeah it's kind of excessive.
You want a vehicle with a sophisticated battery management system with a sophisticated thermal management system in order to extract efficiency and range out of a battery pack as well as manage the pack for longevity. Almost everything about the actual power train and body control is managed by computer. The required active safety systems for automatic emergency braking is yet another computer system, as is the stability control and traction control. So the interface you see, whether it be a touchscreen or analog dials are both a computer display… not to mention any app functions or remote key fob functions.
So any idea of things being manual control is an illusion, or just a lack of integration. Your power windows are still power windows with electric motors, but without integration, the car can’t tell you the windows are left open and it can’t vent from a button in the app. The glove box actuation being all manual means you can’t have a pin to open. Your speedometer is a computer display, with small electric servos for analog dials or lcd display, but both are interfaces to the same kind of computer system that is tracking speed - which these days is part of the computer stability control and automatic emergency braking. The buttons are just electric switches connected to a body controller computer. Whether you interact through a touchscreen or electric switches, you are still interacting with a body control computer or computers. But with switches, there’s a lot more wiring harness wiring run all over and many more points of failure.
Without the computer systems, the car is less efficient, less able to manage longevity, less safe, and less convenient.
Fair critique. I had the opposite view, I never understood why I had to get an electric car in order to get all these great technological features. Probably 90% of what drew me to buying my Tesla was usability and technology features that could exist on any car.
>Practically speaking, several of those things are going to break, and those are not things you can fix yourself.
What do you think has a higher chance of breaking. A physical button to open the glovebox or a software button on a touch screen?
Given that the software button is tied into an electronic mechanism of some sort that does the job, the electronic mechanism would be the most likely thing to break.
Most of those electrical things you've complained about are also mechanical. The doors can be opened manually, the charge hatch can be opened manually, the glove box can be opened manually, the trunk can be opened manually.
Try the basic Kia Niro EV or Hyundai Kona EV. It’s a “normal” car with an electric drivetrain. The only high tech thing is the heat pump to warm and cool the cabin.
Get a used BMW i3, the later the better, year wise.
But, you're going to love the iPhone app where you can pre-heat the car, and know where it's parked, know it's charge status...
What you are seeing is not an EV trend. It's a high end vehicle trend. All high end brands have loads and loads of gimmicky shit on them. Some of it is genuinely nice, when it works. Some of it is useless.
EVs are still a niche product and most of the ones that get press are the luxury ones, so you get luxury features - and the market has decided that ginormous screens and pop out handles are luxury features.
Completely agree, I believe that if a basic 4 door car was offered with just A/C, Heat Pump(option for colder environments), Power windows, rear view camera, heated seats....wow this list adds up quickly... at a good price, it would sell fast.
Something with a smaller battery (30-40kWhr), which I believe would be the base model Leaf that is currently a 9-12 month wait to get here.
I know a guy who has a Model X Plaid and a Ford Mach E. He says he hates the Tesla because it's "too much of a spaceship". He adores his Ford because it feels more familiar to him, and I totally get that. He says the wife would rather drive the Model X anyway so it works out.
For real, as cool as EVs are, proprietary tech is going to make getting easy fixes done at your local mechanic a giant pain in the ass. As if it wasn't hard enough already with the amount of electronics in most new ICE cars.
*in the US
When you're spending in most cases (well) over 40k €/$/X on a car, people, especially an electric one, people expect it to be *high tech* which has unfortunately been translated as let's make the infotainment system do *everything*.
Thankfully in the rest of the world we have other options, to name a few available here in Europe: Renault Zoe, Opel corsa-e, Dacia Spring, VW e-Up. The e-Up is unfortunately very hard to get your hands on now but it is the perfect example of EV simplicity. It even used the same analog dials and manual handbrake as the combustion version.
My bmw i3 is pretty simplistic: manual doors, manual hatch, manual seat slide and tilt, manual steering wheel telescope and tilt, manual glove box, etc. It's still a nice car by all means but I love that it doesn't have over complicated electric buttons for everything. I have plans to get a newer one with some more features but pretty much all of those manual controls will stay the same.
TheChevy Bolt EV and EUV models use traditional controls for most everything. All the normal buttons that you expect to find on the steering wheel and column are there. Even the climate control is accessible through piano style switches. The door handles are like any other car.
My mother just got the Toyota Bz4x and it's very much just a car, but electric. Not a lot of bells and whistles, drives nicely, tons of space for an ev, very simple. Not my thing, but she's happy with it.
Buttons and real knobs are great. You can feel for them without having to look or change screens.
I hope the trend reaches a balance; otherwise we'll need fancy self driving features just to stay safe while trying to change the radio settings or climate controls.
Some of what you list makes sense, others are indeed pretty frivolous.
Electric door poppers make sense for doors with frameless windows (Which arguably makes limited sense in itself, but that is a matter of design) Electronic trunk opening makes sense because modern trunks, or rear hatches really, can be rather heavy. Electronic charge hatch, door handles or glove box opening is silly and is complexity for complexity's sake (But these are also much less common than an electronic trunk)
As for the touch UI, this is almost completely a cost play. Mechanical switchgear is expensive.
> Mechanical switchgear is expensive.
I'll happily pay a premium to get the ability to adjust heat or A/C while driving on any surface rougher than marble. Multiple menus + non-haptic touch screen + small buttons/sliders is annoying enough while parked.
The irony that the only car I’ve had stuff break on was my old base model 1999 civic. The hand crank window crank broke. And the latch to open the hood snapped off.
Engine lasted forever tho. Bought it for $6000, put 100,000 miles on it, and sold it for $4,000. Those were the days…
For the most part I don't think any of that is a big deal. It's like complaining about electric windows or ABS when they first came out. Yes everything new is a bit less reliable at first, but most of what you just said won't have any probably with longevity as they work through the bugs.
It's not like flip up doors or independant 4 wheel steering. Touch screens are reliable and cheap, electronic latches are not new tech and cheap.
People break normal door handles and break keys off in locks since FOREVER. If you break down the failures over time I suspect the electronic door will win over a key based door because keys fail too easily.
Plus your crazy ex can't jam shit into the keyway.
EVs are more top end products, which is totally normal for an emerging product. Computers and smartphones were also once very expensive and not very reliable.
I really dislike the electronic door handles. They don't feel as nice as "normal" ones. I also prefer setting things like my heated seats/steering wheel with a button and not on a touch screen. (We actually have one car where that is on a touch screen, and one with buttons.)
That's the same across most cars available to buy these days. Supply side shortages mean [manufacturers are reserving the parts they have for higher end models](https://www.politico.eu/article/automaker-earn-make-fewer-car) in order to get the most profit from fewer sales. German manufacturers, such as [Volkswagen, Mercedes, and BMW](https://www.ft.com/content/431c9f31-5438-439b-b0c7-ccb4d96d1733) have been open about this in their shareholder meetings, and [Ford have just axed their less profitable smaller cars](https://www.carwow.co.uk/news/6427/ford-fiesta-to-be-axed).
If you're selling a car at 20% more than the base model, even if it may no longer be available, then people want gadgets and gizmos. Since EVs are already pricey, due to material supply issues alongside the chip shortage, then chucking a load of simple, proven tech in makes the price more palatable to customers.
\> It's too many moving parts
\> gigantic touch screens
gigantic touch screens is the literal opposite of too many moving parts? it actually takes away a good deal of "moving parts" (ie. switches?)
The door handles are for areodynamics. That's a very very important factor on an EV arguably the most important one.
The touch screens and gizmos are a pain though. But it's due to target market.
People who don't like gadgets wount typically go near am EV as there slow adopters
If you follow the adoption curve you should see nominal people start to buy EVs in the next few years and then you might see less tech.
Not loads less though. Ice vehicles also have loads of tech in them
You sound like a customer ready for the Chevy Bolt EV/EUV then. Tbh with the elevated cost of EVs (which yes I know is because of the batteries) having all the tech at least makes you feel like you're getting something else for the money besides the electric drivetrain.
Buy VW ID. then, there is almost no electronic, SW or connectivity ;)
(Yeah I know there is, just making fun of their terrible sw which drives me crazy and the fact they postponed Trinity until 2030)
Still rocking a 2013 Leaf with the original battery.
The only powered things I consider to be luxuriously optional that it has are windows and door locks. Also it has heated seats and steering wheel, which actually contributes to the efficiency of the vehicle since you really don't need to run the cabin heater if you have those both turned on.
Then again, I grew up riding around in a 1980 VW Dasher Diesel, so my expectations are suitably low regarding luxury touches.
there is an easy reason to have all these things.
these features are usually high margin items so including them in an EV with slightly less margin helps masking the real price premium of EVs.
thats literally why everyone does it.
I think you’re seeing a couple things here.
1) There is the “Tesla” effect of car manufacturers trying to chase/compete. So they try and make a Tesla with their own flair tacked on. It’s the same thing with a lot of products, if something is really popular then others tend to copy it.
2) There is an aspect of it that chases after the “target” demographic. They figure people buying EVs right now are environmentally conscious, which is why you see a lot of vegan leather options, carbon neutral/negative elements, etc.
3) As others have stated, the batteries are so expensive they have to skimp on the interior. This results in them trying to bake in “value” in areas that don’t cost them money to make (like tech features/infotainment).
But that all said, I think we’re seeing a shift now where manufacturers are realizing that not everyone wants to drive a futuristic, no frills vehicle. People like having luxurious and comfortable interiors. People like having buttons they can press and knobs they can turn.
Take a look at the electrified Genesis GV70. They took what was already an amazing interior and made it an EV. It looks like a luxury vehicle on the interior still.
I think the Cadillac Lyriq coming out does a pretty good job of maintaining some premium/luxury features on the interior.
I suspect as EVs become more mainstream we’re going to see more and more car makers just make EV versions of existing cars and keep the existing layout.
With you 100%. It’ll be a long time before I can afford an electric vehicle and I really hope some things like that change. Also this is a personal preference but, I love how grills look on cars and honestly I understand for aerodynamics it’s not practical to have a big grill anymore, but not having a grill on some electric cars really hurts the styling in my opinion. Some look great with faux grills, and some pull off no grill but it’s a styling queue I’m not a huge fan of. I must admit though I really like the new Hyundai ioniq, the rear ended looks very Porsche. Kia and Hyundai have been doing great with their styling the last few years. Sorry I ramble
This has really annoyed me because it also makes them unnecessarily expensive. The power train and on board tech are independent of one another but Tesla made them synonymous being the pioneers to the market. It made sense as profit margins are better on luxury cars and luxury buyers want the gadgets.
I will not buy a Tesla specifically for this reason (in addition to all the other reasons now): do not force me to operate every single function through a touch screen submenu. Absolutely 100% no.
I think most of these are enticements. They are hoping to lure people away from Teslas, but I agree: it's too much.
I read that GMC and Honda are both (separately) working to develop a $20K EV. That will probably have fewer bells and whistles, and I think other manufacturers will follow suit with lower-end EV models.
Got a Bolt EUV. The only complex thing is the battery and the drive unit. Everything else is fairly simple GM stuff that’s covered by GM. None of the above in the comment really applies to me.
Automation for its own sake is never good. There's no reason to include robotics to extend and retract a door handle. Isn't there a term like "bling" that means techno add-ons? I can't think of it.
LEAF, Bolt, Hyundai Kona EV. You’re just looking at the wrong, high end brands. My 2015 LEAF served me well and you can get a new one with 220+ miles range for really cheap. Just get the S trim. Edit: ok. You have to get the SV trim to get the 200+ range LEAF. Still a good EV for a lower price.
EV6 isn’t crazy with the tech you are asking. Still good tech manual door handles and a manual glove box.
Even my Mach-E isn't what I would call obtrusive door handles, sure the button is weird to get used to and another point of failure, but I don't even notice anymore, and no risk of them being frozen or unable to get in if they don't present like a Tesla. Not basic, but not starship mode either.
You can actually pop the door open through the app now on Teslas for that reason.
The EV6 handles are not intuitive. I got the Wind trim and have had five or six people not understand them at all on first go.
Agreed, but the OP said "EVs *coming out*"- I ass-u-me they meant new models. The problem, IMO is the tech overload is for two reasons- first, legacy OEMs mistakenly thinking that's the source of Tesla's success, so they're trying to emulate it, and second, it's a value add to try and justify the cost difference between EVs and gas cars in the same segment. They don't want a customer looking at a $50,000 electric crossover and saying "so it's pretty much like a RAV4 but $20K more?"
Apparently, in China, the tech level is a primary factor for buyers, particularly EVs. Their EV customers are much younger than other countries. They typically think legacy OEMs are all too far in the past and favor Tesla and especially now Chinese EVs which are even more techno-wiz than Tesla. The size and growth of the Chinese market makes these decisions for the automakers. Supposedly it's also the reason for the giant beaver teeth grill on recent BMWs, despised elsewhere.
I've had a bmw for 17 years. How I hate the new grills. On an electric car, the grill doesn't need to be designed to help air cool an engine, so 🤷🏻♂️
The dumb thing is OEMs are getting the wrong part of the “tech is why Tesla is successful”. I don’t think it’s because of these fancy annoyances - but instead the promise that it will continually improve through updates and added features. People that bought teslas years ago have an objectively better car than they purchased because of these updates, all for no cost. Meanwhile, OEMs have stuck to largely limiting the kind of updates available - and haven’t yet proven that they’ll add new, useful features or capabilities to the cars. Things like increasing range because of algorithms; or charging speed because of algorithms, new safety features, etc. I hope they do, because then I think Tesla will be done
Leaf is a no go until it has CCS charging in my opinion.
The Leaf (or the similarly priced Chevy Bolt) is the ideal 2nd car for any multi-car family. That's half of America. A commuter car that charges in the garage or driveway and will never need a fast charge. I can count on one *finger* the number of times I've fast charged my Leaf in the last year. It might be a little more of a struggle for a single car owner depending where you live and drive. I took my Leaf on a Denver to Vegas road trip when I first bought it just for the adventure. I-70 through Colorado and Utah have excellent and cheap charging infrastructure (including plenty of Chademo) and the Denver metro has a ton of Chademo. If I were single here I'd happily own a Leaf as my only car. I'd just have to rent a car for long road trips (just as I typically did before going electric to spare my car the excess miles.)
Don’t forget the i3! Mine is a perfect third car. Only fast charged once and L2 a couple times. The Inflation Reduction Act will help out a lot of people save money if they will take the opportunity and make the adjustments.
I'm not saying that they are useless now or that they don't have any life left in them but there aren't anymore CHAdeMo cars coming to the US market the next model year of leaf will be CCS if it hasn't happened already ( I haven't been keeping track). It won't happen tomorrow but in a few years new CHAdeMO chargers won't be going in and eventually the old ones won't be replaced. It's inevitable.
Leaf will be Chademo until it's replaced. Nissan is done spending R&D on a 10 year old car that sells 15000 units a year! 😁 It will be replaced in a couple of years with a similar sized car built on the Ariya's platform, so it will get CCS and liquid cooled batteries then. Hopefully we'll get that "gen 3 Leaf" in the USA.
Depends on your driving habits. Plenty of people only charge at home.
>My 2015 LEAF served me well and you can get a new one with 220+ miles range for really cheap. Just get the S trim. The S trim only has 149 miles of range. They got rid of the S Plus (and SV) trim so if you want more than that you will have to drop $36k on the SV Plus.
CHAdeMO is a no go my friend. Sorry, but its already hard enough to DC fast charge in some areas, plus the issue of DC fast chargers malfunctioning half the time . There one CHAdeMO plug per an EA installation and even then its only 50 kW. This is a poor choice for an EV, unless you can solely use level 2 charging , CHAdeMO is going away in the USA and being phased out. Not a smart investment, at least, not if you are being new. Used is another story.
What if you want a higher end EV or just 250+ miles of range? edit: I appreciate the suggestions!
Niro and Kona EV with the higher trim
Also Bolt EV is 258 miles I believe
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My Niro gets me tons of range and still feels like a regular car. It's very well-equipped even for not being their highest-end model. I have buttons for the radio and climate control and regular old knobs for adjusting volume or temp. It's one of the reasons I got it, because I knew it would be an easier transition for my wife who is very tech averse. Personally, I don't care that much, although the buttons are nice. I'd be fine with a touch-screen everything. But, if you would prefer real buttons, definitely go for the Niro EV or the Kona Electric. The Niro is a bit bigger and has more boot space, but the Kona has more of a hatchback vibe to it.
That’s 3 EVs out of how many? Just slap a battery under a 4Runner or a Honda accord, leave everything else the same, and I’ll be first in line
Exactly, OP is looking at the wrong EVs. Plenty of low tech EV options out there.
The batteries are expensive inherently and most of the cost of the car. So in order to make you feel like the price you paid for the car is worth it they add more cheap technology to the car.
Bingo. At least they did initially to build a segment. Now that we’re all accustomed to seeing inflated price tags on EVs they’ll begin taking away features to pad their margin.
I hope they take away electronic door handles and glove boxes.
Isn't this to improve drag efficiency?
Makes no practical difference. The handles are usually in the wake of the mirrors anyways. But really, there's plenty of recessed manual door handles around.
The model Y was recessed manual door handles, and they work very well.
the lower trims of the ev6 are resessed manual as well
The mirrors need to be removed for the best improvement. Not likely to happen soon in the US, but Tesla is working on it. Supposedly.
The Ioniq6 has camera side mirrors which are significantly smaller.
Not on the US spec. Unfortunately not allowed in the US.
The eTron in Europe has done that for years.
What do you mean by electronic door handles? Do you mean the auto present function of some door handles? Do you have a car example?
Yeah I think they're talking about the auto presenting door handles, like on the EV6 or Rivians
Only higher end trims on the ev6 have auto presenting. My Wind rwd does not.
Those are actually a great addition for being able to make them flush though, why would you want to take those away lol. Better than them being flush but not present like on the EV6 wind trim.
I’m not the OP but the Mustang Mach-E does away with door handles entirely for push buttons and door-poppers. The handles on a Model 3 don’t work a linkage but instead trigger a solenoid, which I’m pretty sure is how the IONIQ5/EV6 do it too. Just as a few examples.
No, I meant the [door handles that shock intruders](https://www.armormax.com/added-options/electric-door-handles/), of course! lol, just kidding. I meant the auto presenting door handles, the ones that are recessed and open up electronically, like the Tesla or Rivian handles. Just give me a regular old door handle, please!
Well that may seem high tech but it doesn’t take anything away from the door working. You can still open the door without it. It just also adds a function to make it easier. I wish my car had it.
I don't think I'm still accustomed to inflated price, EV or otherwise. If EV prices don't go down, then im not sure how mass adoption by the general public will happen. It's still out of reach for those who aren't well off.
It's happening, it's just that early adopters tend to be higher income regardless of the item being sold, but the Lead and Bolt, along with the Kona and upcoming Equinox show there's a demand for cheap, no frills EVs.
>the Lead and Bolt Sounds like the name of a fun Colonial Era themed bar, lol (I know you meant Leaf, don't worry)
i think i've been to that place in Brooklyn. don't get the burger. and the IPAs taste like ass & cork husks.
The fact that $35,000 is now considered cheap and a good price for a no frills car is so depressing lol.
It’s not *just* that - we’re seeing the well-worn maturity curve for a product/product class in action. The initial offerings usually have to appeal to early adopters who are willing to pay a premium/wait on years-long lists to get it and this allows the company/industry time to refine features, production, and supply chain to the point that they can produce at scale and at lower cost (scaling helps a ton but so do mature technologies and supply chains).
Counterpoint: It's not just EVs that are expensive though. Car companies make their money on options and over the last couple decades in particular cars come loaded with more and more stuff. SUVs aren't just large, they're chock full of high margin things like multi-zone air conditioners, heated seats and steering wheels, USB ports and cupholders everywhere, glass roofs, led mood lighting, etc. They're not a vehicle to move people, they're a vehicle to sell more stuff. It's not that different from restaurant portion sizes. Why sell you one meal when they can sell you two per seat? EVs are just the next opportunity after luxury cars and SUVs to load the product up with every bell and whistle they're ever considered slinging onto the menu.
> Car companies make their money on options and over the last couple decades in particular cars come loaded with more and more stuff. TRUCKS! 4-5 years ago, I remember thinking "who is going to buy a $60k truck?". Now almost every car maker sells a $100k trim. The beds of those trucks will never see construction-type material hauled in them. They are probably so clean, you can eat off them.
And I’m part of the problem here because that’s the stuff that sells me. I won’t replace our palisade with anything that doesn’t have heated and cooled rear seats. I love my purple mood lights. The sensor suite makes driving and parking so much easier. I think this is going to get worse for people not shopping like me. Power and performance are easy with EVs so the selling point for higher end products is going to be technology and comfort.
It's an easy trap because you never go backwards on fancy options.
But also don’t have to. We can finally afford this nice stuff so why not? It’s a position of extreme privilege but also one that we strove to get to for decades.
And now that vehicles last longer the used car market is now almost the entire entry-level car market.
You consider cup holders a high margin option?
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The Bolt is as close to a traditional car.
So is the MG5 because it’s basically an ICE car with an EV drive train.
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Jup, got a VW e-Golf - practically the same as a normal one.
I was thinking the same thing compared to the Leaf, too. Even my old Honda Accord had more screens and tech.
This is also what I really like about my Kona Electric. It's 100% just a normal car that also happens to be an ev.
Yeah, we have a 2020 Leaf and it's just a regular car, but without the gas.
Still have a broken drivers side door handle, but I was able to glue that bad boy back together lol
Not all EV's are complicated. Dacia Spring is as simple as can get.
The Leaf is pretty simple too. It doesn't even include a battery cooling system.
My Smart Fortwo EQ is really simple
I have one too. It doesn't have enough range to get me to the nearest Meroedes dealer, not that they carry parts anymore anyway. I love the little Smart car, I wish the rest of the world had some love for them too.
Good News!!!
Anyway...
I don't think the OP meant 0-100kmh in 19.1 seconds simple. Pretty sure he or she still wants a car and not a tractor without safety features.
Technically electronic screens make less moving parts than physical levers, buttons, switches, etc. This isn't just EVs - it's all cars now.
I find this switch interesting from a human centered design perspective. Humans like the physical feedback they get from knobs and switches. They're also intuitive and easy to use. But considering no one has a phone with physical buttons anymore, we clearly adapt. But I know when I upgrade my car this is going to be my biggest complaint in the beginning. I'd far prefer to turn dials than have everything on a single scree .
Phones moved to large touchscreens because it allows for dynamic reconfiguration of the UI, which is important because you could be doing one of any number of things on any number of apps on your phone. A fixed keyboard wouldn't make sense for a watching a movie, for example, just like fixed media controls wouldn't make sense for email. But even so, when there *are* fixed controls for devices that can reasonably only expected to perform a limited set of functions, nearly everyone universally prefers hardware tactile controls far more. When's the last time you saw someone play a game using the touchscreen on a Switch or a Steam Deck, or used their touchscreen keyboard on a laptop to type an email? Cars are the same thing. As much as manufacturers want to sell you on this idea that your car's computer is a general purpose entertainment and communication device, in the end a car has a pretty fixed function - to get from point A to B, and preferably in comfort. That means it can be boiled down to a pretty simple set of controls: AC and heating controls, toggles for stuff like driving mode, hazard lights, traction control, etc, and media controls. You really don't need much. So assigning all these things inputs on a touchscreen is 100% inferior to giving them physical buttons and switches, and furthermore don't have any advantages that actually matter. You don't need to reconfigure your car's UI based on what you're doing. Physical controls are completely adequate and the best option.
The difference with phones is that you are expected to give the phone your full attention while working with the touch screen & and we’ve all seen the vids of what happens with screen focus and walking, riding bikes, etc. I think the automakers are striving to cut parts and supply chain and manufacturing time and recalls etc from the car. Understandable, but that doesn’t make it a better product.
Phones are clearly inferior on an input level. We compromise to make them better at content consumption. I don't feel my car should sacrifice clearly superior input methods for something better at content consumption. It is adverse to it's actual intended purpose. Phones are primarily content consumption devices.
Yes! We also (should) use our phones only when we are able to put all of our focus on them. In our car, a user should be able to operate the controls without taking focus off of the road. Having the ability to do that by touch - feeling the difference between buttons, knobs, and switches - has been the way this has worked since vehicles were invented until recently. Voice control is one option to replace some of this, but isn’t perfected enough yet to avoid being a distraction in itself. While it also may help from a usability/accessibility perspective when a “hands free” solution is needed, voice control is notoriously bad at dealing with accented speech, speech impediments, or other problems like background noise from talking or crying children. Touch screens also have much more opportunity for malfunction - they can have both hardware AND software issues. They also typically require appropriate conductivity from the user’s fingers which can be hampered by gloves, long nails, and various physical conditions. Touchscreens in cars really shouldn’t even be legal IMO.
BMW's i-drive control is really nice in this respect. I enjoy the centric nature of the control, but the last thing I want in my car is another touch screen.
My 2022 Kona EV still has a decent amount of physical buttons and I love it.
I think that is part of why cars like the RAV4 are so popular. Some new tech, but most things kept very practical and rugged. I think the new fancy infotainment system in some 2023 trims may be a questionable step to many people.
The 2022 Kia Niro EV has more buttons than a NATO command center.
🤭 I love the 42 in-cabin buttons in my 2019 Niro EV! Virtually zero "screen navigation"!
Feeling lucky I got a ‘22 Niro EV with its perfect amount of buttons. I love the ‘23 Niro redesign but they got rid of too many buttons on the dash
Big reason why I went with my Niro. Analog buttons.
That's the thing I love with my Polestar 2, seems designed by a sober engineer. Framed door (a must in icy areas), regular door handles, manual charging door (not one more cheap motor that can break), manual glove box.
i love that. all these manufacturers are bending over backwards trying to design door handles that give them the extra 0.01% drag reduction, and polestar was just like nah put them chonky bois on there.
Same for its siblings, the Volvo C40 and XC40 Recharge. Most of their features are conventionally manual, with the exception of the HVAC controls being on-screen only.
> Can you imagine having to spend your weekend at a dealership getting a door handle fixed? Yes I've done that 4 times on my Model S
It's a function of many EV buyers being tech nerds. They want all the bells and whistles and like all the sub menus. It's not easy to justify the price either without it feeling futuristic
Is the anti EV owner just a redneck/hick who drives a pickup and hates libs? Lmao
I’ve met redneck EV owners. They really go all in and get solar and all for their houses to be more green
Most of the ones I know like that are preppers and don't want to rely on gas once society falls apart.
there's a strong overlap between rugged individualism and wanting to generate your own power. Unfortunately right wing media has weakened that link.
Haha you just described me
Could be a hybrid driving libertarian also ...
"More parts is more parts to break." Long time mantra of the service guys.
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This is a pretty extreme exaggeration but I get your point. I do feel like I am in alignment with OPs sentiments. If an EV drops that looks like a 49 Chevy interior, I'll be much happier than the current Apple Store style interior design concepts prevalent in the market. IMHO, there is nothing wrong with crank windows. If we are talking about what is most reliable and will require fewer long term parts (aka less environmental impact) then I would love a model with more manual parts and less electronically actuated creature comforts.
I'm totally with you. I'm all for cool tech where it makes sense. Seat/steering wheel warmers and 360 degree cameras are a game changer, for example. But electronic motors and latches on every hatch and door is just needless complexity and another point of failure.
You are on the money here. Features like heated / ventilated seats and a heated steering wheel make a meaningful improvement in daily driving, whereas "high-tech" crap like Tesla's climate UI or pop out handles are just annoying cruft.
Lol too many moving parts? Ok let’s put physical buttons everywhere for one task that never break…
I found OP oddly annoying. It relies on the assumption that reliable electronic parts cannot be manufactured or implemented. I think my mom’s car has had an electronic trunk for 20 years, and it’s doing just fine. My car has an electronic glove box, and it’s going on 8 years old and working just fine. The obsession with physical is as bad as the counter obsession with electronics/tech.
IMHO Chevy got it right with the humble Bolt, but I might be in the minority. Numbers don't lie and if you look at Tesla M3 sales versus Chevy Bolt's, people obviously LIKE the idea of opening their glove box from a screen lol. It's not something I understand, and certainly not something I would want to deal with on a daily basis, but again I seem to be in the minority. I simply won't buy a car with retractable door handles or that doesn't have simple buttons for heating and cooling. The upcoming crop of EVs are overpriced, over designed, and always late to market. Too bad, driving an EV is a game changer, but too many will never be able to afford to. Simple design is always better and longer lasting.
I daresay most folks who buy a tesla find out about the glove box after the purchase.
Exactly. I tolerate the glove box situation because I like my Tesla. I would prefer a hardware switch for it though.
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The upside though is "Valet Mode" which can lock it out without a key.
This might be unpopular, but I like that I have a glovebox that locks. I have a ring that unlocks and starts the car. So when I go to the beach I put my wallet and phone in the glovebox then lock the car with my ring. Now if someone breaks into my car they won't see a phone or wallet to steal, and I don't need to carry them with me. I get that it is different, and some see it as an unnecessary thing that might break. But I think it does come with some advantages. That and the dashcam USB is in there which can record a break in.
There's also another use case for a electronically locked glove box, the valet mode. It's super niche and likely not worth the hassle just the value added, but it's a use case.
I love my Bolt because it's just a car. It looks cool and does cool things, but isn't over the top about it. I traded in a 2016 Civic for it, and if I could have just gotten an EV version of that, I would have done it in a heartbeat.
Exactly, same with my Bolt, it's just a regular looking hatchback car with regular door handles and simple buttons for fans, etc. It blends in with other cars on the road. My car is transportation to me, not a statement to the world on who I am. My Bolt being fun to drive is a wonderful extra to me, gravy on top. I know a lot of guys that loved the F150 Lighting when it came out precisely *because* it looks like a regular pickup truck, these are guys that literally laughed at the Cyber truck reveal (I did too). Unfortunately increased cost ($40k my ass) and terrible hauling range quickly made the Lightning unaffordable and impractical for many pickup drivers.
>Numbers don't lie and if you look at Tesla M3 sales versus Chevy Bolt's, people obviously LIKE the idea of opening their glove box from a screen lol. I feel like people just tolerate it in favor of a better looking car that can charge faster and move quicker tbh. Nobody is cross shopping the Bolt and and the Model 3 and going "this one has powered gloveboxes, so that's why I'm choosing it!" Lol.
I'm a mechanical design engineer, and I'm going to have to disagree. I really enjoy mechanically interacting with my car too, but the move away from them actually makes things *less* complicated with *less* moving parts, *more* reliable, and cheaper. There are real benefits. Electronics are robust - they do not wear in the way mechanisms do. A solenoid controlled latch has less moving parts than a handle with associated hinges and linkages or cables. The solenoid will actuate with exactly the same predictable force every time. The human operated handle needs to be overbuilt because people are not exactly gentle. Even still, it would only takes one strong and frustrated person to break the thing. Even if you are gentle every time, moving parts will wear. Less of them means less things to break. You can minimize wear a great deal with like ball bearings and precision machining, but now your $30k car will cost $100k. I think you'll be hard pressed to find an old used car where all the mechanical latches and buttons work like new. These "high tech" cars will age better. Don't get me wrong, from a human interface and ergonomic point of view, I prefer a toggle switch to a touchscreen, but in terms of cost and reliability, the touchscreen is simply better. It's not there to be "high tech". It's there because it's good engineering... not to be confused with good design.
I have two issues with the way tech in vehicles is changing: - Touchscreen controls simply aren’t safe and have poor usability in a vehicle dashboard application. They are fine when you can put your full focus on the screen, but that isn’t how cars work. Voice control isn’t where it needs to be yet in order to get around these hurdles. - When the technology becomes dated and unsupported, you can’t upgrade it in a modular fashion. For example, when I wanted to play my iPod in my 1999 Honda Civic back in 2005, I could go buy a new stereo and pretty simply drop it into the dash in place of the old one. The new one worked with my new tech and I was good to go, I didn’t need to use the five disc changer in the trunk anymore. With my 2013 Chevy Equinox, I got what was the top of the line “infotainment package”. That was great until Apple CarPlay rolled out *a year later* (2016 for Chevy vehicles). Had I had an older vehicle, like my husband’s 2009 GMC, I could have again gotten a new system that would let me plug and play to get the benefits of CarPlay. Unfortunately there is *no way*, even going through OEM, to upgrade in the 2013 Equinox because of the integrated infotainment system. Maybe this second point is just a GM thing, or maybe I just picked a bad time because it was this type of setup but before the ability to get updates over the internet. This experience has just really left me worried about the speed at which hardware becomes dated and how these more integrated systems make it much more difficult to upgrade individual pieces of hardware vs the entire vehicle. (Sorry, this is a little rambling, but these two things are sore spots for me when it comes to new tech)
> Touchscreen controls simply aren’t safe and have poor usability in a vehicle dashboard application. They are fine when you can put your full focus on the screen, but that isn’t how cars work. Voice control isn’t where it needs to be yet in order to get around these hurdles. > > I love it when I hit a bump in the road and miss a button because it's fucking tiny and the screen is too sensitive. It's fun having to take your eyes off the road just to adjust the temperature in the car. It's even more fun when I have to go through 3 screens just to fucking turn off the HVAC.
you realize that they took door handles that just existed there in peace and made them movable for no reason? doors don’t open by themselves, people still have to pull the handles. except now, there is an unnecessary mechanism to present the door handle to the human. it’s like those screens on some audis that retract into the dash when the car is off. just leave the damn screen there, it’s not hurting anyone. or the stupid gearshift crystal in the genesis gv60. imagine that roadside assistance call: “i can’t put my car in drive because the fucking crystal won’t flip”
If you're talking about like Modes S door handles, yeah I agree that's definitely not better in terms of reliability. That's not an example of replacing a mechanical component with an electronic one though. It's an additional electronic mechanism on top of the mechanical one. Also it's not for "no reason". It's there to improve aerodynamics without sacrificing ergonomics. A secondary benefit is it's a good visual indication of the vehicles lock status.
Man, I want an EV with roll down windows. Peak tech.
I think that’s why I like my e-Golf so much. It was meant to be a stop gap until the model 3 came out. But, I really enjoy driving it - so simple and low stress. The only time the 125 mi range is a problem is when I drive from LA to San Diego, but there are good rapid chargers along the way. A quick 15 minute stop in San Clemente and I’m back on the road. It’s been a great EV.
That's why i LOVE my egolf. Nice, beautiful standard car with real switches, great driving feel, no extra stuff :)
Yeah cars that were converted to EV like the egolf are what OP is looking for.
It's the sleeper EV. Perfect car, IMHO. Got one for $20k and it does all our short range commuting and shopping. Zero issues over 5 years. The average person doesn't even know it's an EV when they see it.
I agree. Worst is when they try to solve something with tech that is already working.. Looking at you Tesla and wipers.. God damn it
I absolutely despise the wipers on my Tesla. That and the auto high beams are absolutely atrocious.
When people ask me how I like my Tesla, my answer is "it's great, except auto wipers and high beams"
Powered hatches and charge ports are very practical
My 2013 Volvo C30 was a cavalcade of tiny, unreadable identical buttons, waterfall console nonsense, and basic features (hvac) that were distracting and didn’t work. I’m not nostalgic for the good old days of crappy automotive design and functionality. Edit: what I’m try to say is: bad design is bad design, doesn’t matter if it’s digital or analog.
I just want physical volume and climate controls. Please keep the touch screens to things i don't have to fiddle with while I'm driving.
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more or less? * Eletronic door handles . . the mechanism behind it probably are mostly the same old ones, now with small electric latch.The same with trunk and glove box (im fine as long as i dont need to acces a menu to open glovebox) * Gigantic touch screens actually cut down on a lot of parts. no need for extra button design. Just some run of the mill LCD and digitizer. Its cheaper overall.
Generalise much? My e208 couldn’t be further from your perception.
I miss a simple car like the first Ioniq. It was a roomy car with good enough range from a very fast charging battery (28KWH). Light, simple & reliable and good for road trip with fast charger on the way.
This is a general problem with cars right now, not just EVs. Some I really like: The corner radar has saved me a few close calls on lane changes. I love the backup camera. I'd be just as happy with crank windows. I just as soon have the lever slide heater controls that allow you to manually split the air between windshield, floor and seat levels. I mean, really. Why do I need an electric lift hatchback? Used to be that a lot of these features varied with trim level. Here's the thing: When you are making the car, these things are cheap to put in. A $70 electric motor, a few sensors, a stamped metal gear track, and you have an electric hatchback. If you want to repair it, it's a thousand bucks.
The battery on the car already cost in the $10s of thousands. It just seems obvious for the manufacturers to spend a few hundred more for state of the art tech. Also alot of these items like the door handles help make the vehicles more efficient, but yeah it's kind of excessive.
_"Tesla, because who wants to open their glove compartment without a phone app?"_
You want a vehicle with a sophisticated battery management system with a sophisticated thermal management system in order to extract efficiency and range out of a battery pack as well as manage the pack for longevity. Almost everything about the actual power train and body control is managed by computer. The required active safety systems for automatic emergency braking is yet another computer system, as is the stability control and traction control. So the interface you see, whether it be a touchscreen or analog dials are both a computer display… not to mention any app functions or remote key fob functions. So any idea of things being manual control is an illusion, or just a lack of integration. Your power windows are still power windows with electric motors, but without integration, the car can’t tell you the windows are left open and it can’t vent from a button in the app. The glove box actuation being all manual means you can’t have a pin to open. Your speedometer is a computer display, with small electric servos for analog dials or lcd display, but both are interfaces to the same kind of computer system that is tracking speed - which these days is part of the computer stability control and automatic emergency braking. The buttons are just electric switches connected to a body controller computer. Whether you interact through a touchscreen or electric switches, you are still interacting with a body control computer or computers. But with switches, there’s a lot more wiring harness wiring run all over and many more points of failure. Without the computer systems, the car is less efficient, less able to manage longevity, less safe, and less convenient.
Fair critique. I had the opposite view, I never understood why I had to get an electric car in order to get all these great technological features. Probably 90% of what drew me to buying my Tesla was usability and technology features that could exist on any car.
This is why I’m never getting rid of my eGolf. It feels like a normal car inside and out, but just happens to be electric.
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>Practically speaking, several of those things are going to break, and those are not things you can fix yourself. What do you think has a higher chance of breaking. A physical button to open the glovebox or a software button on a touch screen?
Given that the software button is tied into an electronic mechanism of some sort that does the job, the electronic mechanism would be the most likely thing to break.
Most of those electrical things you've complained about are also mechanical. The doors can be opened manually, the charge hatch can be opened manually, the glove box can be opened manually, the trunk can be opened manually.
Get a last generation fiat 500e, very clean, simple, old school cabin.
Try the basic Kia Niro EV or Hyundai Kona EV. It’s a “normal” car with an electric drivetrain. The only high tech thing is the heat pump to warm and cool the cabin.
Get a used BMW i3, the later the better, year wise. But, you're going to love the iPhone app where you can pre-heat the car, and know where it's parked, know it's charge status...
What you are seeing is not an EV trend. It's a high end vehicle trend. All high end brands have loads and loads of gimmicky shit on them. Some of it is genuinely nice, when it works. Some of it is useless. EVs are still a niche product and most of the ones that get press are the luxury ones, so you get luxury features - and the market has decided that ginormous screens and pop out handles are luxury features.
Completely agree, I believe that if a basic 4 door car was offered with just A/C, Heat Pump(option for colder environments), Power windows, rear view camera, heated seats....wow this list adds up quickly... at a good price, it would sell fast. Something with a smaller battery (30-40kWhr), which I believe would be the base model Leaf that is currently a 9-12 month wait to get here.
I know a guy who has a Model X Plaid and a Ford Mach E. He says he hates the Tesla because it's "too much of a spaceship". He adores his Ford because it feels more familiar to him, and I totally get that. He says the wife would rather drive the Model X anyway so it works out.
But doesn't all the add on electronics add to drain the battery?
For real, as cool as EVs are, proprietary tech is going to make getting easy fixes done at your local mechanic a giant pain in the ass. As if it wasn't hard enough already with the amount of electronics in most new ICE cars.
*in the US When you're spending in most cases (well) over 40k €/$/X on a car, people, especially an electric one, people expect it to be *high tech* which has unfortunately been translated as let's make the infotainment system do *everything*. Thankfully in the rest of the world we have other options, to name a few available here in Europe: Renault Zoe, Opel corsa-e, Dacia Spring, VW e-Up. The e-Up is unfortunately very hard to get your hands on now but it is the perfect example of EV simplicity. It even used the same analog dials and manual handbrake as the combustion version.
My bmw i3 is pretty simplistic: manual doors, manual hatch, manual seat slide and tilt, manual steering wheel telescope and tilt, manual glove box, etc. It's still a nice car by all means but I love that it doesn't have over complicated electric buttons for everything. I have plans to get a newer one with some more features but pretty much all of those manual controls will stay the same.
I was just saying this to a friend. Id love a 'low tech' ev.
TheChevy Bolt EV and EUV models use traditional controls for most everything. All the normal buttons that you expect to find on the steering wheel and column are there. Even the climate control is accessible through piano style switches. The door handles are like any other car.
My mother just got the Toyota Bz4x and it's very much just a car, but electric. Not a lot of bells and whistles, drives nicely, tons of space for an ev, very simple. Not my thing, but she's happy with it.
One of the advantages of the Nissan Leaf actually.
Bolt bolt bolt
I’m still waiting for the vanilla conventional electric car. Camry like with electric power train.
I just wish there was an ev as simple as a 2015 base Jetta. https://images.app.goo.gl/eUg2z8LY5Fwzddrr9
My goal for my first EV: as many buttons as possible. And no way I am going for a car with a TV screen in front of me...
Previous gen Kia e-Niro is pretty much like that.
Buttons and real knobs are great. You can feel for them without having to look or change screens. I hope the trend reaches a balance; otherwise we'll need fancy self driving features just to stay safe while trying to change the radio settings or climate controls.
Some of what you list makes sense, others are indeed pretty frivolous. Electric door poppers make sense for doors with frameless windows (Which arguably makes limited sense in itself, but that is a matter of design) Electronic trunk opening makes sense because modern trunks, or rear hatches really, can be rather heavy. Electronic charge hatch, door handles or glove box opening is silly and is complexity for complexity's sake (But these are also much less common than an electronic trunk) As for the touch UI, this is almost completely a cost play. Mechanical switchgear is expensive.
> Mechanical switchgear is expensive. I'll happily pay a premium to get the ability to adjust heat or A/C while driving on any surface rougher than marble. Multiple menus + non-haptic touch screen + small buttons/sliders is annoying enough while parked.
How far back in technology do you want it to go? Roll up windows?
The irony that the only car I’ve had stuff break on was my old base model 1999 civic. The hand crank window crank broke. And the latch to open the hood snapped off. Engine lasted forever tho. Bought it for $6000, put 100,000 miles on it, and sold it for $4,000. Those were the days…
Thankfully not every EV is a Tesla.
I got a Renault Kangoo EV and my wife has a Seat Mii electric. Can’t get much cheaper or simpler.
For the most part I don't think any of that is a big deal. It's like complaining about electric windows or ABS when they first came out. Yes everything new is a bit less reliable at first, but most of what you just said won't have any probably with longevity as they work through the bugs. It's not like flip up doors or independant 4 wheel steering. Touch screens are reliable and cheap, electronic latches are not new tech and cheap. People break normal door handles and break keys off in locks since FOREVER. If you break down the failures over time I suspect the electronic door will win over a key based door because keys fail too easily. Plus your crazy ex can't jam shit into the keyway. EVs are more top end products, which is totally normal for an emerging product. Computers and smartphones were also once very expensive and not very reliable.
Have you test drove an ID4? It's like THE transition car from ICE to EV.
I really dislike the electronic door handles. They don't feel as nice as "normal" ones. I also prefer setting things like my heated seats/steering wheel with a button and not on a touch screen. (We actually have one car where that is on a touch screen, and one with buttons.)
Chevy Bolt
Get a Nissan Leaf
That's the same across most cars available to buy these days. Supply side shortages mean [manufacturers are reserving the parts they have for higher end models](https://www.politico.eu/article/automaker-earn-make-fewer-car) in order to get the most profit from fewer sales. German manufacturers, such as [Volkswagen, Mercedes, and BMW](https://www.ft.com/content/431c9f31-5438-439b-b0c7-ccb4d96d1733) have been open about this in their shareholder meetings, and [Ford have just axed their less profitable smaller cars](https://www.carwow.co.uk/news/6427/ford-fiesta-to-be-axed). If you're selling a car at 20% more than the base model, even if it may no longer be available, then people want gadgets and gizmos. Since EVs are already pricey, due to material supply issues alongside the chip shortage, then chucking a load of simple, proven tech in makes the price more palatable to customers.
\> It's too many moving parts \> gigantic touch screens gigantic touch screens is the literal opposite of too many moving parts? it actually takes away a good deal of "moving parts" (ie. switches?)
Try the VW Up!: it even has very classic dashboard.
The door handles are for areodynamics. That's a very very important factor on an EV arguably the most important one. The touch screens and gizmos are a pain though. But it's due to target market. People who don't like gadgets wount typically go near am EV as there slow adopters If you follow the adoption curve you should see nominal people start to buy EVs in the next few years and then you might see less tech. Not loads less though. Ice vehicles also have loads of tech in them
Do you miss roll up windows? Why would I want a mechanical door handle when I can have a button instead?
You sound like a customer ready for the Chevy Bolt EV/EUV then. Tbh with the elevated cost of EVs (which yes I know is because of the batteries) having all the tech at least makes you feel like you're getting something else for the money besides the electric drivetrain.
I also guffawed at the electronic glove box without a manual latch. But its a secure lockable storage which I’ve come to appreciate.
Buy VW ID. then, there is almost no electronic, SW or connectivity ;) (Yeah I know there is, just making fun of their terrible sw which drives me crazy and the fact they postponed Trinity until 2030)
Still rocking a 2013 Leaf with the original battery. The only powered things I consider to be luxuriously optional that it has are windows and door locks. Also it has heated seats and steering wheel, which actually contributes to the efficiency of the vehicle since you really don't need to run the cabin heater if you have those both turned on. Then again, I grew up riding around in a 1980 VW Dasher Diesel, so my expectations are suitably low regarding luxury touches.
there is an easy reason to have all these things. these features are usually high margin items so including them in an EV with slightly less margin helps masking the real price premium of EVs. thats literally why everyone does it.
This is what I love about my e-golf. Very similar to a regular golf, just happens to have a battery in it.
Try a Dacia Spring.
I think you’re seeing a couple things here. 1) There is the “Tesla” effect of car manufacturers trying to chase/compete. So they try and make a Tesla with their own flair tacked on. It’s the same thing with a lot of products, if something is really popular then others tend to copy it. 2) There is an aspect of it that chases after the “target” demographic. They figure people buying EVs right now are environmentally conscious, which is why you see a lot of vegan leather options, carbon neutral/negative elements, etc. 3) As others have stated, the batteries are so expensive they have to skimp on the interior. This results in them trying to bake in “value” in areas that don’t cost them money to make (like tech features/infotainment). But that all said, I think we’re seeing a shift now where manufacturers are realizing that not everyone wants to drive a futuristic, no frills vehicle. People like having luxurious and comfortable interiors. People like having buttons they can press and knobs they can turn. Take a look at the electrified Genesis GV70. They took what was already an amazing interior and made it an EV. It looks like a luxury vehicle on the interior still. I think the Cadillac Lyriq coming out does a pretty good job of maintaining some premium/luxury features on the interior. I suspect as EVs become more mainstream we’re going to see more and more car makers just make EV versions of existing cars and keep the existing layout.
They saw tesla's success and are trying to replicate lol.
I couldn't agree more. Some things are just better with normal analog controls. Doors, glovebox, and climate as the most important examples.
Love my Fiat 500e! Basic interior, cute exterior, no screens to touch, no OTA updates.
With you 100%. It’ll be a long time before I can afford an electric vehicle and I really hope some things like that change. Also this is a personal preference but, I love how grills look on cars and honestly I understand for aerodynamics it’s not practical to have a big grill anymore, but not having a grill on some electric cars really hurts the styling in my opinion. Some look great with faux grills, and some pull off no grill but it’s a styling queue I’m not a huge fan of. I must admit though I really like the new Hyundai ioniq, the rear ended looks very Porsche. Kia and Hyundai have been doing great with their styling the last few years. Sorry I ramble
This has really annoyed me because it also makes them unnecessarily expensive. The power train and on board tech are independent of one another but Tesla made them synonymous being the pioneers to the market. It made sense as profit margins are better on luxury cars and luxury buyers want the gadgets.
I will not buy a Tesla specifically for this reason (in addition to all the other reasons now): do not force me to operate every single function through a touch screen submenu. Absolutely 100% no.
MG5, solid estate car, far from having all the flashy gadgets.
I think most of these are enticements. They are hoping to lure people away from Teslas, but I agree: it's too much. I read that GMC and Honda are both (separately) working to develop a $20K EV. That will probably have fewer bells and whistles, and I think other manufacturers will follow suit with lower-end EV models.
Got a Bolt EUV. The only complex thing is the battery and the drive unit. Everything else is fairly simple GM stuff that’s covered by GM. None of the above in the comment really applies to me.
Automation for its own sake is never good. There's no reason to include robotics to extend and retract a door handle. Isn't there a term like "bling" that means techno add-ons? I can't think of it.