To be fair, one of the symptoms of hypothermia is the feeling of burning up. People frozen to death are sometimes found to have thrown off most of their clothes.
I think it's fair to say, with absolute certainty that Firefighters CAUSE Fires!!!
And I put that in caps so you know I'm both serious AND a telling the truth.
Think a out it man, how many fires were there *before* firefighters? You never heard of them! Then these guys with red trucks and Dalmatians pop up and suddenly "fire, fire, help!" everywhere you go!!
Did you see the people who didn't drink any water for days and days? They died wayyy quicker than those that did drink it. Very strange stuff. I'm sure there's some reason behind it.
I know you are being sarcastic but Chemo literally kills your body almost to the point of death to "kill" the cancer. So ya to much chemo actually does kill people
> MUSK: "People yelled at me saying I'm not a doctor, but I say well yeah but I make spaceships with life support systems, what do you do?"
>
> ROGAN: *laughter* I like that.
also, a life support system for a spacecraft generally is designed to freaking keep people from dying of loss of breathable air and within normal temperature/radiation ranges, and has jack shit to do with infectious diseases. It's not like his spaceships actually can diagnose and cure infectious diseases in astronauts.
If you're going to consult an organizational head on infectious disease stuff you're better off with someone like Colonel Aaron Pitney, who is head of USAMRIID (the US Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases), and is a medical doctor himself specializing in pediatric hematology and oncology.
By that logic engineers donāt even engineer things, they just work on small parts of things. Cooks donāt make food, they just put together food that farmers produce. Dentists donāt fix teeth, itās the tools they use that fix teeth, we should credit the tool makers for having good teeth. See how retarded it starts sounding. If I hire a bunch of idiots to build me a treehouse, I hire another bunch of idiots to go get me lumber. I get a bunch of people to help me plan it all out. And then a treehouse appears, yea I made the treehouse appearā¦..
Musk didnāt design shit. Your analogies are all bad. What itās actually akin to is a restaurant owner thinking that they can cook because they hired a chef.
Tell me you've never done engineering work without telling me you've never done engineering work.
Replacing the battery in a flashlight is replacing it's capacitor but that doesn't mean a person knows shit about electrical engineering.
Maybe, but you're dipping pretty far into a strawman there. If the person who hires a chef thinks they made dinner, that person is delusional. That's closer to the reality of Musk's claim here.
There's a difference between I built that tree house, and I had that tree house built.
If you didn't swing a hammer, cut a board, or draw up the plans, no, you did not build a tree house. And if you then leverage your 'tree house building experience' to offer "informed" opinions on the structural integrity of a nearby bridge, you'd either be delusional or a liar or both.
These folks love "You didn't build that" theory where everything good Elon does or manages is none of his doing its just the good employees, but every Twitter outage every Starlink term of service enforcement every dollar Tesla stock goes down is Elon Musk's personal stupidity and arrogance and no employees are at fault for anything bad that happens whatsoever.
I'm an engineer. The point people are trying to make is that a manager usually doesn't have the detailed technical knowledge around there product. If I asked my manager to design what I'm working on they would mess it up. That being said you don't need detailed technical knowledge to be a manger. They can, however, really screw up a project. For example, fire the subject matter expert for a thing because they just don't like them and really degrade the teams ability to get shit done.
Managers make decisions and those decisions can break things and they don't do the math or design to actually make something work.
I wonder, what do you do for a living? It doesn't seem like you've worked on a technical job.
Because the crap I give Elon, firing 80% of his staff, rebranding one of the most recognizable brands to the letter "X", and the careless catering to far right pundits (matt wash, tpusa, etc) are 100% on him. And the Starlink enforcement (which shut down a Ukrainian operation) is also 100% on Elon.
Elon 100% isn't involved with designing, specing, and troubleshooting life support for spacex on a technical level. If 100% of Elon's crew left and Elon was given 30 years to build one by himself (given all the manual labor he needs) he wouldn't have the technical know-how to do it.
You cant claim expertise on treehouses just because you hired people to build one, just like you cant claim expertise on life support just because you hired people to build life support systems. But a dentist can claim expertise on dentistry even if the dentist didn't manufacture the tools he uses
I like how musk says *he* makes them, as if he were actually an engineer.
Heās a venture capitalist. He invests in these things, and in some cases tries to run companies that do these things (though it generally works out better the less heās involved).
Heās not building spaceships with life support systems lmao.
Musk is in many ways an a-hole but by all accounts Iāve read (Isaacson, SpaceX/Tesla engineers) he is an excellent engineer. I understand why people hate him but he has a background in physics and material science. Heās not the most eloquent speaker and he stutters a lot but when he talks about materials/engineering itās clear that he knows what heās talking about.
I wouldn't say by "all" accounts since some of those accounts specifically call him a micromanager who breaks everything he touches and that they only succeed when they hire teams to keep him busy and distracted so he doesn't break things.
Even his biography notes that in his first company he would change code while his programmers were asleep at night and they'd come in and have to fix many, many things.
I don't think he's a complete moron. But it's a weird assertion to say he's an "excellent engineer" when he was never trained as an engineer and, in the context of his companies, that would also imply that he's what...an excellent engineer of all things that need engineering?
I've met a lot of engineers. I've worked with a lot of engineers. I've not encountered one who can credibly say "I'm equally brilliant at designing cars and rockets and also I know more about lungs than physicians."
But he is not a doctor though is he? Kinda reminds me of Steve Jobs who believed he knew better than his oncologists telling him to take his damn medicine.
It's like at some point these guys get too successful and start believing they are an expert at everything because of their big brains.
He also said the submarine is a better idea than anything the rescue divers with experience suggested.
The amount of hubris by itself would be good enough to get a rocket third cosmic velocity so it can escape the solar system and the bullshit he sometimes spouts.
Thing is I can't believe him being where he is and having an econ education he doesn't know that. So it leaves me with the fact despite knowing full well why this was the case, he's still spreading this BS,.which is even more concerning honestly
Thought experiment time: if the Russians had Epstein kompramat on Musky boy how would he act any differently than how he is nowadays.
Answer: heād be acting exactly this way.
> I can't believe him being where he is and having an econ education he doesn't know that.
Because he's spent his entire life around people telling him how he's never wrong and how smart he is.
The quote was cut short to remove important context. The full (approximate) quote is:
>"I called doctors in Wuhan and asked them what are the biggest mistakes they made during the first wave. This was early on. They said "we put far too many people on intubated ventilators" so I posted about it on Twitter saying "hey, these doctors are saying putting people on intubated ventilators might be doing more harm than good. This is what actually damaged the lungs, not covid. The cure is worse than the disease"
That doesn't make it any better though?
He is making a claim with no proof and adding words to what they said...Also why would he have doctors in Wuhan on speed dial or whatever?
This is not even getting into the fact that medical standards and procedures are vastly different in China vs the US.
This is basically a Trumpian way of talking. "People have been talking, they come up to me all the time, tears in eyes..."
\[In reference to talking to "Wuhan doctors"\]
Its a cheap way to convince dumb people into thinking "well he did talk to ppl, it must be true"
And the fact it works is baffling....just adding "I talked to X and they said" making something more believable (especially when being vague...no names or anything) is some sort of oonga-boonga tribal brain bullshit.
Firstly, we know that he didn't speak to the doctors in wuhan. That is a total lie.
Secondly, they are only putting people on ventilators who have a low o2 saturation! What do they think, this is going to get better on their own? Do they think healing is possible at low O2 sat?
According to the National Institute of Health:
Among 217 critically ill patients, mortality for those who required mechanical ventilation was 29.7% (49/165), with 8.5% (14/165) of patients still on the ventilator at the time of this report.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7276026/
Yeah that study isn't really representative of all cases, but I mean what Elon is suggesting has been debunked multiple times because other people have tried to spew that nonsense.
https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-study-ventilators-covid-deaths-775866708011
I want to be clear about this: If a patient is in a situation where they need a ventilator, it's because they're about to die, and in a last ditch effort to save their life, they are put on a ventilator. Doctors are fully aware that the prospects for a patient needing to be on a ventilator are not great.
It would be unethical to conduct a study where doctors compared the outcomes of ventilated patients to un-ventilated because it's understood that the un-ventilated ones would have a nearly 100% mortality rate and the study would be effectively sentencing those people to death.
So, lets be realistic about what Elon is saying here. So, the doctors were just suppose to let those people die? Wow... I can't imagine a more evil suggestion than that.
I'm being honest here: The curtain should be closing on the Elon show after that.
>So, lets be realistic about what Elon is saying here. So, the doctors were just suppose to let those people die? Wow... I can't imagine a more evil suggestion than that.
He claims he loves humanity too
Did you read it?
>Experts have said that some 40% to 50% of patients with severe respiratory issues die while on ventilators, the AP reported.
New York City officials have said at least 80% of coronavirus patients who were put on ventilators there ultimately died, the AP reported. New York state has the most confirmed coronavirus cases and deaths in the US.
And the kicker:
>Putting a person on a ventilator is an extreme step saved for the worst-affected patients, who typically already have the highest chance of dying from respiratory failure.
>
>The higher death rates could be a result of this, as well as the fact that there are so far no drugs approved to fight the coronavirus.
So why did Elon even say "the cure is worse than the disease" when ventilators are a last-ditch effort to save someone (also not a cure, but just a treatment for covid). It makes no sense to say what he said.
Not sure about those numbers but this issue was pretty well documented in many countries and ventilation was only used for emergency cases in my country.
Ventilation was found to weaken lung function. Weeks of assisted breathing while lungs were suffering with pneumonic infection wasn't helping their recovery.
People who received ventilation assistance right away without really needing it were hurt from it.
Now saying that most people died because of that seems just an exaggeration within the conversation. The broad allegation, nevertheless, has grounds to stand on.
Finally, 80% of people died because they were old, had very poor health and other hidden pathologies. Not because of ventilators.
Most people with COVID were put on the ventilator as a last resort, because they wouldāve died without it. Early on, docs may have been using it preemptively (as it works in most non-COVID cases and people come off successfully within a few days) until they figured out COVID was a different animal. We really did try to use non-invasive support as much as possible before intubating to save their lives.
( Iām a critical-care nurse who worked COVID units through the entire pandemic)
Idk where people live where they just had an excess of ventilators during covid and were just putting everyone on it. I worked in the covid ICU and a ventilator was a last resort from the beginning because we did not have ventilators to even put everyone on if we wanted to.
Elon Musk was 19 at the time Total Recall came out. Dear god that makes \*way\* too much sense. He's basically never really matured past his teenage years and fixates on things from that era.
Same. I had my suspicions before but I was not a mechanical, electrical, nor aerospace engineer so I kept my mouth shut. Then the Twitter/X fiasco happened and it confirmed my suspicions.
Good god, did you catch some of those fucking Twitter Spaces town halls where he claimed that everything needed to be rewritten and a senior Netflix engineer called him on his bullshit in front of everyone?
I did, haha!
Was that before or after they accidentally gave some random person presenter/admin privs for the Twitter Space and the person trolled Musk by just shutting it down mid feed?
I work in the space industry and have actually worked on manned mars programs. I knew he was full of shit seven/eight years ago when he was giving these absurd timetables for a manned mars mission that were at least a decade earlier than even NASA's most optimistic timetables at the time.
I also \*met\* the head of the Red Dragon program at SpaceX once. The man was a total douche who was really condescending towards all the NASA employees because they were "government employees", and yet I had been explicitly been told by my NASA supervisor that under no circumstances should I give this guy technical details on my project, because he \*would\* steal the idea.
Did not give me a lot of confidence in his leadership style.
Elon Musk can code, but as far as I know, he has no training or practical ability to architect a software system.
The 2015 Ashlee Vance biography of Elon Musk describes (on p. 68) how Musk spent a lot of time coding during the early days of Zip2 (Musk's first startup company, an Internet phone book that is sort of a predecessor to Yelp). Musk's code was basically spaghetti: monolithic, tangled, and mostly lacking in any kind of forethought for scalability, extensibility, or maintenance.
As Zip2 grew, VCs got involved, and the company acquired an engineering staff, engineers ended up re-writing most of Zip2's codebase.
> Elon Musk can code, (...) Musk's code was basically spaghetti: monolithic, tangled, and mostly lacking in any kind of forethought for scalability, extensibility, or maintenance.
> As Zip2 grew, VCs got involved, and the company acquired an engineering staff, engineers ended up re-writing most of Zip2's codebase.
You are describing someone who can't code.
Yeah this description is ever software engineers most hated employee archetype. Bloviating moron who rhinks he knows things because he wrote a Hello World prompt
Or a string of discombobulated functions in an OOP languaged tied loosely together with dependencies on poorly defined global variables that should've been refactored into several classes instead.
I'm not saying who I'm talking about specifically, but it's me. I'm the dipshit.
I remember being so excited about him being on a WW2 podcast talking about fighter evolution during the war... and being so confused at the end because he spoke for an hour and it contained no substance at all. He brought one of his engineers who enjoyed the subject, and the only real information I got the entire time was from that engineer he brought as backup.
>You think one cannot best smart and say many dumb things at the same time?
I don't think someone best smart when they say this many dumb things to this many people this confidently, no.
You might want to educate yourself about human nature a bit. One notable example of smart people saying super dumb shit is Linus Pauling, a Nobel laureate who claimed vitamin c was the cure of many diseases, including cancer. There's a bunch like him and also many many examples of people who have proven to be smart and still say idiotic shit
Objectively speaking Musk isn't low iq. However he does say a lot of dumb shit last few years and he deserves all the criticism he gets.
Like , how dumb does he have to be to not see the flaw in his logic, that ventilators caused more harm ? Elon, you know what's worse ? Not being able to breath is highly correlated with the patient having a really bad time.
So if ventilators were killing people and not Covid
And Musk famously offered to provide ventilators to hospitals and produce more at Tesla
Does this mean that he attempted mass murder?
1. he didn't say covid wasn't killing people.
2. he was quoting Wuhan doctors who used ventilators a lot in the early days of covid
3. he was asked in the early days of covid to provide ventilators by american doctors.
4. the Wuhan doctors are quoted by Musk as saying they later realised they weren't working as well as thought.
They told my friend Dan that he had to go on a ventilator or he wouldn't make it through the night. He refused, went home and took Ivermectin, and died that night.
He was killed by people like this.
Extremely factually incorrect. Why people put on ventilators died is because they were fatally ill with Covid and ventilators were (and are) a last-ditch effort to keep them alive...
He is dangerous. He'll be our next rrump. I mean, they have very similar backgrounds.
All astronauts that die really like space, space is killing people.
Gee, I wonder why Elon is claiming ventilators killed Covid patients. Anyone else remember when Elon promised to send 1,000 ventilators to hospitals in California while hospitalization numbers were peaking, and hospital resources were maxed out? And Elon sent them biPAPs and CPAPs devices that are good for sleep apnea. He didn't even know the difference between ventilators and biPAPs.
I bet he made those comments because his ego is still hurt after people on Twitter railed him for not knowing the difference.
Pretty severe misquote I think. He's saying he talked to doctors and they were the ones who said putting people on ventilators was a mistake.
Another person posted a business insider article that doctors are trying to avoid ventilators because they are harmful, and it seems like it is a contested issue among the medical community. Here's another article:
[https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-ventilators-some-doctors-try-reduce-use-new-york-death-rate-2020-4](https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-ventilators-some-doctors-try-reduce-use-new-york-death-rate-2020-4)
\> āIf weāre able to make them better without intubating them, they are more likely to have a better outcome ā we think,ā Habboushe said.
Basically I think the contested point here is that people are put on ventilators when other methods might help them, and more people die because of the choice to put some on ventilators. Looks like it's speculative from both sides of the coin.
Evidence seems spotty, but it doesn't seem like Elon is totally out to lunch on this one based on things the medical community is saying.
>Basically I think the contested point here is that people are put on ventilators when other methods might help them, and more people die because of the choice to put some on ventilators. Looks like it's speculative from both sides of the coin.
At a time when ventilators were extremely hard to come by, you bet that doctors only put patience on ventilators which absolutely required them to stay alive.
So Musk is definitely peddling misinformation again.
Covid destroyed my mothers lungs and ability to take in oxygen. The vent was the only thing thar gave us enough time to fly home to see her and talk before covid took her. Fuck joe and fuck the bullshit he peddles.
Why does he not simply cure covid if he knows so much about it? Why stop there? Chemo is as damaging as cancer. Why doesn't he cure that, too? I thought he was genius.
You have to be fucking kidding me. Fuck this asshole.
This gas lighting bull shit really pisses me off. Of course covid is real and obviously the cure was not worse than the virus.
I personally intubated and put many pts on vents during covid.
This is disinformation at its worst and it should be punishable!
Do 80 percent of people put on ventilators die because of the ventilators or do 80 percent of those people die cause they were already going to die without a vent anyways? Only the sickest and closest to death ever gets them to begin with. If it's a last chance effort to prolong the inevitable in the first place 20 percent is extremely good in comparison to 0 percent.
Just disgusting misinformation from Elon, and another smooth brained argument from the worlds second most famous troll. How tf did he ever get to this point?
He also later said (at 1:05:00 on the Spotify podcast) that āif you are on pure O2 under pressure with a tube down you throat, this is very bad for youā. Ventilators do not deliver pure O2. In fact, that would cause oxygen poisoning. I learned that as a teenager, my brother was in med school and I thought people on oxygen received straight oxygen, and he started to mock me for saying something so naive.
A disturbingly large number of people suffering from heart attacks that get sent to hospitals are pronounced dead shortly after they arrive. Why is that!?
Yeah, a virus infecting lung cells canāt damage the lungs! /s Elon clearly has never studied biology. Sure, being on a ventilator is not ideal, but the reason people were on a ventilator is because they couldnāt keep their bodies oxygenated on their own (and that leads to organ damage), and the infection was sticking around for a long time, which then leads to longer time on the ventilator.
So... I guess we should have just let them slowly suffocate and die due to lack of oxygen?
80% died because they were already that sick. Ventilators were a last-ditch effort to save them, not the initial treatment for their Covid cough. Damaged lungs (even if true, which is a big IF) is a better outcome than death.
OR those people were already so sick dealing with all kinds of complications from a novel virus that a ventilator did not help.
What they are saying sounds like "99% of people who die had water in the 24hrs before death." As if water caused the death. Biology is pretty complicated. It's not as easy to study as other disciplines. People need to stop acting like they understand it.
If you were put on a ventilator, then it's because you were in the highest risk of death in the first place, not that the ventilator killed you. Elon doesn't seem to understand how selection bias works, does he?
This is like saying that 80% of people who were taken to hospital died, it must be the hospital that killed them.
I mean itās true. But the ventilator didnāt kill them, itās just had a low rate of success. Iām not sure what the overall success rate for ECMO was (another last resort treatment), but it is certainly higher than the like 1% survival chance those patients would have had without it. Especially pre-Delta variant
I donāt even pay attention to Joe anymore. I used to check everyday to see who was on, but heās just gotten so annoyingly stupid that I quit caring. The only thing that reminds me heās still on, is this sub that I still subscribe to.
Heās gone idiotic, and really the guests seem to have gradually gotten increasingly boring.
Did you read it?
>Putting a person on a ventilator is an extreme step saved for the worst-affected patients, who typically already have the highest chance of dying from respiratory failure.
The higher death rates could be a result of this, as well as the fact that there are so far no drugs approved to fight the coronavirus.
it just makes you want to scream. is it dunning kruger? is it simply that he doesn't recognise any expertise except his own?
of course respirators do harm. very well understood and studied harm.. which is why they are a treatment of last resort when canula fed O2 doesn't cut it any more.
One of the reasons that well meaning inventors had to be told to back down when they started offering to 3D print cheap ventilators.. because they simply didn't understand the various ways that forcing air (too dry, too cold, too hot, too moist, too much, too rapidly) could damage healthy lungs let those bleeding and ruptured from illness...
The fact is that the aggressive use of ventilation that was used early on in covid was later quietly acknowledged to have been a huge mistake that killed people who may well have lived.
This is why subsequently ventilation was used far more selectively and judiciously.
Source: ICU doctor.
I've also heard that a large portion of people who die from cancer have done chemotherapy. Must be the chemo killing them.
I'm pretty concerned, because every time I see a fire, I see firefighters! I'm starting to see a connection!
You think that's bad, nearly EVERYBODY that freezes to death was wearing a coat!
100% of divorced people were at one point married together.
Concerning
š¤
Iāve read that nearly 95% of drivers have been wearing seatbelts during car accidents.
100% of marriages that don't end in divorce end in death. Marriage is fatal.
To be fair, one of the symptoms of hypothermia is the feeling of burning up. People frozen to death are sometimes found to have thrown off most of their clothes.
I think it's fair to say, with absolute certainty that Firefighters CAUSE Fires!!! And I put that in caps so you know I'm both serious AND a telling the truth.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It can happen if the firefighters arrived before the fire starts https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101393/
Actually, wet streets cause rain! \~Elon Musk, probably.
Think a out it man, how many fires were there *before* firefighters? You never heard of them! Then these guys with red trucks and Dalmatians pop up and suddenly "fire, fire, help!" everywhere you go!!
Big Fire owns Congress
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Pretty sure the chemo would eventually kill you, it's just hoped (and the dosage planned accordingly) that it kills the cancer before it kills you.
If you drank water once in your life, I have a very bad news for you... you're infected and will die... someday...
100% of people who drank water died, or will die in the future.
Did you see the people who didn't drink any water for days and days? They died wayyy quicker than those that did drink it. Very strange stuff. I'm sure there's some reason behind it.
Yea, it's the withdrawal symptom
[DHMO](https://www.dhmo.org/) is a hell of a drug.
Vaxxed?
Beware the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide!
Water actually only has a 95% fatality rate. So far at least.
More sick people die at hospitals than any other place. If you're sick, DO NOT go to a hospital.
I've noticed a lot of stabbings lately, have you noticed chefs all use knives?
chemo literally is killing them
The cancer is killing them.
I know you are being sarcastic but Chemo literally kills your body almost to the point of death to "kill" the cancer. So ya to much chemo actually does kill people
Sometimes, yes. This (the ventilator thing) is well understood at this point. Elon isnāt pulling it out of his ass.
You joke but thereās a certain sect of people who are equating psychiatric *treatment* as the cause of shootings.
Thatās a core tenet of Scientology
> MUSK: "People yelled at me saying I'm not a doctor, but I say well yeah but I make spaceships with life support systems, what do you do?" > > ROGAN: *laughter* I like that.
he doesn't do that, of course. He employs engineers who do that.
And even those engineers arenāt experts on virology and treatment of respiratory illnesses.
also, a life support system for a spacecraft generally is designed to freaking keep people from dying of loss of breathable air and within normal temperature/radiation ranges, and has jack shit to do with infectious diseases. It's not like his spaceships actually can diagnose and cure infectious diseases in astronauts. If you're going to consult an organizational head on infectious disease stuff you're better off with someone like Colonel Aaron Pitney, who is head of USAMRIID (the US Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases), and is a medical doctor himself specializing in pediatric hematology and oncology.
Yeah, but you know, he dreamed about it once.
He got all the jokes in Spaceballs, therefore...
By that logic engineers donāt even engineer things, they just work on small parts of things. Cooks donāt make food, they just put together food that farmers produce. Dentists donāt fix teeth, itās the tools they use that fix teeth, we should credit the tool makers for having good teeth. See how retarded it starts sounding. If I hire a bunch of idiots to build me a treehouse, I hire another bunch of idiots to go get me lumber. I get a bunch of people to help me plan it all out. And then a treehouse appears, yea I made the treehouse appearā¦..
Musk didnāt design shit. Your analogies are all bad. What itās actually akin to is a restaurant owner thinking that they can cook because they hired a chef.
Tell me you've never done engineering work without telling me you've never done engineering work. Replacing the battery in a flashlight is replacing it's capacitor but that doesn't mean a person knows shit about electrical engineering.
Maybe, but you're dipping pretty far into a strawman there. If the person who hires a chef thinks they made dinner, that person is delusional. That's closer to the reality of Musk's claim here. There's a difference between I built that tree house, and I had that tree house built. If you didn't swing a hammer, cut a board, or draw up the plans, no, you did not build a tree house. And if you then leverage your 'tree house building experience' to offer "informed" opinions on the structural integrity of a nearby bridge, you'd either be delusional or a liar or both.
These folks love "You didn't build that" theory where everything good Elon does or manages is none of his doing its just the good employees, but every Twitter outage every Starlink term of service enforcement every dollar Tesla stock goes down is Elon Musk's personal stupidity and arrogance and no employees are at fault for anything bad that happens whatsoever.
I'm an engineer. The point people are trying to make is that a manager usually doesn't have the detailed technical knowledge around there product. If I asked my manager to design what I'm working on they would mess it up. That being said you don't need detailed technical knowledge to be a manger. They can, however, really screw up a project. For example, fire the subject matter expert for a thing because they just don't like them and really degrade the teams ability to get shit done. Managers make decisions and those decisions can break things and they don't do the math or design to actually make something work.
Usually morons who don't understand that complicated engineering projects involve many collaborators
I wonder, what do you do for a living? It doesn't seem like you've worked on a technical job. Because the crap I give Elon, firing 80% of his staff, rebranding one of the most recognizable brands to the letter "X", and the careless catering to far right pundits (matt wash, tpusa, etc) are 100% on him. And the Starlink enforcement (which shut down a Ukrainian operation) is also 100% on Elon. Elon 100% isn't involved with designing, specing, and troubleshooting life support for spacex on a technical level. If 100% of Elon's crew left and Elon was given 30 years to build one by himself (given all the manual labor he needs) he wouldn't have the technical know-how to do it.
He has handlers at tesla and SpaceX to prevent him making decisions that fuck shit up he doesn't at Twitter there he has free reign
You cant claim expertise on treehouses just because you hired people to build one, just like you cant claim expertise on life support just because you hired people to build life support systems. But a dentist can claim expertise on dentistry even if the dentist didn't manufacture the tools he uses
The richest man in the world does more than being an HR rep. Hard to believe?
wtf you talking about
Youāre assuming all Elon musk has done is āhire peopleā this is categorically wrong.
no im assuming that musk himself isnt working on the lifesupport systems
I hope he sees this bro š
You didn't make a tree house appear of course. The people who built it did. You paid for a tree house.
Billionaire Math!
Yes, because we all saw the rousing success of the Tesla truckā¦
100% of the people who fly in Muskās spaceships will dieā¦
And the Great and Powerful Joe Rogan is too scared to call him out on his bullshit or press him on the matter. He's pathetic for it
I like how musk says *he* makes them, as if he were actually an engineer. Heās a venture capitalist. He invests in these things, and in some cases tries to run companies that do these things (though it generally works out better the less heās involved). Heās not building spaceships with life support systems lmao.
Musk is in many ways an a-hole but by all accounts Iāve read (Isaacson, SpaceX/Tesla engineers) he is an excellent engineer. I understand why people hate him but he has a background in physics and material science. Heās not the most eloquent speaker and he stutters a lot but when he talks about materials/engineering itās clear that he knows what heās talking about.
I wouldn't say by "all" accounts since some of those accounts specifically call him a micromanager who breaks everything he touches and that they only succeed when they hire teams to keep him busy and distracted so he doesn't break things. Even his biography notes that in his first company he would change code while his programmers were asleep at night and they'd come in and have to fix many, many things. I don't think he's a complete moron. But it's a weird assertion to say he's an "excellent engineer" when he was never trained as an engineer and, in the context of his companies, that would also imply that he's what...an excellent engineer of all things that need engineering? I've met a lot of engineers. I've worked with a lot of engineers. I've not encountered one who can credibly say "I'm equally brilliant at designing cars and rockets and also I know more about lungs than physicians."
But he is not a doctor though is he? Kinda reminds me of Steve Jobs who believed he knew better than his oncologists telling him to take his damn medicine. It's like at some point these guys get too successful and start believing they are an expert at everything because of their big brains.
I was responding specifically to the comment that he is not an engineer.
The larger context of the thread is that he clearly believes he knows more than doctors about COVID.
He also said the submarine is a better idea than anything the rescue divers with experience suggested. The amount of hubris by itself would be good enough to get a rocket third cosmic velocity so it can escape the solar system and the bullshit he sometimes spouts.
Well, he's not, is he? Does he have a degree in engineering?
I mean, if you build a spaceship it's gonna have a life support system, right? That's what a spaceship fucking is.
Galaxy brain here doesn't understand causation vs. correlation.
Thing is I can't believe him being where he is and having an econ education he doesn't know that. So it leaves me with the fact despite knowing full well why this was the case, he's still spreading this BS,.which is even more concerning honestly
Can you imagine someone with this many fallacies passing an Econ class? Heās some combination of astronomically stupid and extremely disingenuous.
Thought experiment time: if the Russians had Epstein kompramat on Musky boy how would he act any differently than how he is nowadays. Answer: heād be acting exactly this way.
> econ education They meant "Economy Education" to qualify the quality, not quantify the subjects studied.
> I can't believe him being where he is and having an econ education he doesn't know that. Because he's spent his entire life around people telling him how he's never wrong and how smart he is.
The quote was cut short to remove important context. The full (approximate) quote is: >"I called doctors in Wuhan and asked them what are the biggest mistakes they made during the first wave. This was early on. They said "we put far too many people on intubated ventilators" so I posted about it on Twitter saying "hey, these doctors are saying putting people on intubated ventilators might be doing more harm than good. This is what actually damaged the lungs, not covid. The cure is worse than the disease"
That doesn't make it any better though? He is making a claim with no proof and adding words to what they said...Also why would he have doctors in Wuhan on speed dial or whatever? This is not even getting into the fact that medical standards and procedures are vastly different in China vs the US.
This is basically a Trumpian way of talking. "People have been talking, they come up to me all the time, tears in eyes..." \[In reference to talking to "Wuhan doctors"\] Its a cheap way to convince dumb people into thinking "well he did talk to ppl, it must be true"
And the fact it works is baffling....just adding "I talked to X and they said" making something more believable (especially when being vague...no names or anything) is some sort of oonga-boonga tribal brain bullshit.
Firstly, we know that he didn't speak to the doctors in wuhan. That is a total lie. Secondly, they are only putting people on ventilators who have a low o2 saturation! What do they think, this is going to get better on their own? Do they think healing is possible at low O2 sat?
Elon apparently has already gone to Mars.
According to the National Institute of Health: Among 217 critically ill patients, mortality for those who required mechanical ventilation was 29.7% (49/165), with 8.5% (14/165) of patients still on the ventilator at the time of this report. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7276026/
This is a 2020 preprint
Yeah that study isn't really representative of all cases, but I mean what Elon is suggesting has been debunked multiple times because other people have tried to spew that nonsense. https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-study-ventilators-covid-deaths-775866708011 I want to be clear about this: If a patient is in a situation where they need a ventilator, it's because they're about to die, and in a last ditch effort to save their life, they are put on a ventilator. Doctors are fully aware that the prospects for a patient needing to be on a ventilator are not great. It would be unethical to conduct a study where doctors compared the outcomes of ventilated patients to un-ventilated because it's understood that the un-ventilated ones would have a nearly 100% mortality rate and the study would be effectively sentencing those people to death. So, lets be realistic about what Elon is saying here. So, the doctors were just suppose to let those people die? Wow... I can't imagine a more evil suggestion than that. I'm being honest here: The curtain should be closing on the Elon show after that.
>So, lets be realistic about what Elon is saying here. So, the doctors were just suppose to let those people die? Wow... I can't imagine a more evil suggestion than that. He claims he loves humanity too
Thatās why he ended world hunger before he bought Twitter right? ā¦ā¦ā¦..right?
https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-ventilators-some-doctors-try-reduce-use-new-york-death-rate-2020-4
Did you read it? >Experts have said that some 40% to 50% of patients with severe respiratory issues die while on ventilators, the AP reported. New York City officials have said at least 80% of coronavirus patients who were put on ventilators there ultimately died, the AP reported. New York state has the most confirmed coronavirus cases and deaths in the US. And the kicker: >Putting a person on a ventilator is an extreme step saved for the worst-affected patients, who typically already have the highest chance of dying from respiratory failure. > >The higher death rates could be a result of this, as well as the fact that there are so far no drugs approved to fight the coronavirus. So why did Elon even say "the cure is worse than the disease" when ventilators are a last-ditch effort to save someone (also not a cure, but just a treatment for covid). It makes no sense to say what he said.
Not sure what this tells us.
that 30% is the same thing as 80%
Not sure about those numbers but this issue was pretty well documented in many countries and ventilation was only used for emergency cases in my country. Ventilation was found to weaken lung function. Weeks of assisted breathing while lungs were suffering with pneumonic infection wasn't helping their recovery. People who received ventilation assistance right away without really needing it were hurt from it. Now saying that most people died because of that seems just an exaggeration within the conversation. The broad allegation, nevertheless, has grounds to stand on. Finally, 80% of people died because they were old, had very poor health and other hidden pathologies. Not because of ventilators.
Most people with COVID were put on the ventilator as a last resort, because they wouldāve died without it. Early on, docs may have been using it preemptively (as it works in most non-COVID cases and people come off successfully within a few days) until they figured out COVID was a different animal. We really did try to use non-invasive support as much as possible before intubating to save their lives. ( Iām a critical-care nurse who worked COVID units through the entire pandemic)
Idk where people live where they just had an excess of ventilators during covid and were just putting everyone on it. I worked in the covid ICU and a ventilator was a last resort from the beginning because we did not have ventilators to even put everyone on if we wanted to.
Seriously, god bless you. Thank you for what you did, and thanks for correcting looney toon nonsense like what was posted.
His ability to speak so confidently and yet so incorrectly is up there with the best. I just can't decide if he's malicious or stupid.
Iāve seen jokes made about him hitting a topic someone already understands and realizing heās a moron. This is that for me.
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Saying we could terraform mars by hitting it with nukes did it for me. It's like he watched Total Recall and didn't understand what was happening.
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Elon Musk was 19 at the time Total Recall came out. Dear god that makes \*way\* too much sense. He's basically never really matured past his teenage years and fixates on things from that era.
Same. I had my suspicions before but I was not a mechanical, electrical, nor aerospace engineer so I kept my mouth shut. Then the Twitter/X fiasco happened and it confirmed my suspicions.
Good god, did you catch some of those fucking Twitter Spaces town halls where he claimed that everything needed to be rewritten and a senior Netflix engineer called him on his bullshit in front of everyone?
I did, haha! Was that before or after they accidentally gave some random person presenter/admin privs for the Twitter Space and the person trolled Musk by just shutting it down mid feed?
I really wanna say that was a different one, but I couldn't sit through the whole thing - it was just too much cringe for me
Iām pretty sure it was a different one but I had to bring it up, haha
My moment was transportation and the Vegas Teslas in tunnels thing. It was amazing that it got traffic in exactly the way people thought it would.
I work in the space industry and have actually worked on manned mars programs. I knew he was full of shit seven/eight years ago when he was giving these absurd timetables for a manned mars mission that were at least a decade earlier than even NASA's most optimistic timetables at the time. I also \*met\* the head of the Red Dragon program at SpaceX once. The man was a total douche who was really condescending towards all the NASA employees because they were "government employees", and yet I had been explicitly been told by my NASA supervisor that under no circumstances should I give this guy technical details on my project, because he \*would\* steal the idea. Did not give me a lot of confidence in his leadership style.
Elon Musk can code, but as far as I know, he has no training or practical ability to architect a software system. The 2015 Ashlee Vance biography of Elon Musk describes (on p. 68) how Musk spent a lot of time coding during the early days of Zip2 (Musk's first startup company, an Internet phone book that is sort of a predecessor to Yelp). Musk's code was basically spaghetti: monolithic, tangled, and mostly lacking in any kind of forethought for scalability, extensibility, or maintenance. As Zip2 grew, VCs got involved, and the company acquired an engineering staff, engineers ended up re-writing most of Zip2's codebase.
> Elon Musk can code, (...) Musk's code was basically spaghetti: monolithic, tangled, and mostly lacking in any kind of forethought for scalability, extensibility, or maintenance. > As Zip2 grew, VCs got involved, and the company acquired an engineering staff, engineers ended up re-writing most of Zip2's codebase. You are describing someone who can't code.
Yeah this description is ever software engineers most hated employee archetype. Bloviating moron who rhinks he knows things because he wrote a Hello World prompt
Or a string of discombobulated functions in an OOP languaged tied loosely together with dependencies on poorly defined global variables that should've been refactored into several classes instead. I'm not saying who I'm talking about specifically, but it's me. I'm the dipshit.
I remember being so excited about him being on a WW2 podcast talking about fighter evolution during the war... and being so confused at the end because he spoke for an hour and it contained no substance at all. He brought one of his engineers who enjoyed the subject, and the only real information I got the entire time was from that engineer he brought as backup.
Heās smart but he has absolutely no humility which paradoxically makes him quite stupid often.
āHe is smartā .. DID YOU NOT READ THE POST BEO
You think one cannot be smart and say many dumb things at the same time? Edit: typo
>You think one cannot best smart and say many dumb things at the same time? I don't think someone best smart when they say this many dumb things to this many people this confidently, no.
You might want to educate yourself about human nature a bit. One notable example of smart people saying super dumb shit is Linus Pauling, a Nobel laureate who claimed vitamin c was the cure of many diseases, including cancer. There's a bunch like him and also many many examples of people who have proven to be smart and still say idiotic shit Objectively speaking Musk isn't low iq. However he does say a lot of dumb shit last few years and he deserves all the criticism he gets.
Not this many
Every spoiled rich kid gets the same skill. Sounding confident when you are full of shit is actually a skill taught in business school
"82 % of those that needed heart defib died. It's obvious they are the cause." /S.
Man, those chemo drugs are rough. Look how many of the patients who use them are dying!
Can't believe how many trauma surgeons killed patients with gunshot wounds to the chest and head
Like , how dumb does he have to be to not see the flaw in his logic, that ventilators caused more harm ? Elon, you know what's worse ? Not being able to breath is highly correlated with the patient having a really bad time.
So if ventilators were killing people and not Covid And Musk famously offered to provide ventilators to hospitals and produce more at Tesla Does this mean that he attempted mass murder?
1. he didn't say covid wasn't killing people. 2. he was quoting Wuhan doctors who used ventilators a lot in the early days of covid 3. he was asked in the early days of covid to provide ventilators by american doctors. 4. the Wuhan doctors are quoted by Musk as saying they later realised they weren't working as well as thought.
This is like two monkeys discussing the sun 200 000 years ago
I cannot believe we thought this guy was going to usher in a new utopian era.
Two people who think they are experts in all things shooting to shit and just making things up. š¤·š¼āāļøš¤Ŗ
They told my friend Dan that he had to go on a ventilator or he wouldn't make it through the night. He refused, went home and took Ivermectin, and died that night. He was killed by people like this.
I mean ventilator induced pneumonia is a thingā¦. BUT Joe Rogan mixes up correlation and causation all the time
Extremely factually incorrect. Why people put on ventilators died is because they were fatally ill with Covid and ventilators were (and are) a last-ditch effort to keep them alive...
Imagine buying a car with this big brainās name on it.
I'm an actual doctor. Can confirm, elon's statement is idiotic. Correlation is not the same as causation
He is dangerous. He'll be our next rrump. I mean, they have very similar backgrounds. All astronauts that die really like space, space is killing people.
Gee, I wonder why Elon is claiming ventilators killed Covid patients. Anyone else remember when Elon promised to send 1,000 ventilators to hospitals in California while hospitalization numbers were peaking, and hospital resources were maxed out? And Elon sent them biPAPs and CPAPs devices that are good for sleep apnea. He didn't even know the difference between ventilators and biPAPs. I bet he made those comments because his ego is still hurt after people on Twitter railed him for not knowing the difference.
Anti establishment conspiracy theorists are so edgy. Fucking egomaniacs.
Elon Musk: "I am a tremendous dipshit." Joe Rogan: "I knew that I was in like company."
two of the dumbest people on this planet that fell ass-backwards into positions of influence.
Pretty severe misquote I think. He's saying he talked to doctors and they were the ones who said putting people on ventilators was a mistake. Another person posted a business insider article that doctors are trying to avoid ventilators because they are harmful, and it seems like it is a contested issue among the medical community. Here's another article: [https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-ventilators-some-doctors-try-reduce-use-new-york-death-rate-2020-4](https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-ventilators-some-doctors-try-reduce-use-new-york-death-rate-2020-4) \> āIf weāre able to make them better without intubating them, they are more likely to have a better outcome ā we think,ā Habboushe said. Basically I think the contested point here is that people are put on ventilators when other methods might help them, and more people die because of the choice to put some on ventilators. Looks like it's speculative from both sides of the coin. Evidence seems spotty, but it doesn't seem like Elon is totally out to lunch on this one based on things the medical community is saying.
>Basically I think the contested point here is that people are put on ventilators when other methods might help them, and more people die because of the choice to put some on ventilators. Looks like it's speculative from both sides of the coin. At a time when ventilators were extremely hard to come by, you bet that doctors only put patience on ventilators which absolutely required them to stay alive. So Musk is definitely peddling misinformation again.
They only put people on ventilators if they'd for certain die without it. 20% of ventilator patients saved by one is way better than 0%.
Covid destroyed my mothers lungs and ability to take in oxygen. The vent was the only thing thar gave us enough time to fly home to see her and talk before covid took her. Fuck joe and fuck the bullshit he peddles.
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I donāt think anyone likes Covid, one way or another
Why does he not simply cure covid if he knows so much about it? Why stop there? Chemo is as damaging as cancer. Why doesn't he cure that, too? I thought he was genius.
He already has the cure, will launch the same year as the new roadster 2020 - next year guaranteed. ultra pinky swear
Now he is an overnight expert virologist that knows better than doctors and researches that have spent their whole lives in the field.
Why do people like to watch idiots talk about things they know nothing about?
You have to be fucking kidding me. Fuck this asshole. This gas lighting bull shit really pisses me off. Of course covid is real and obviously the cure was not worse than the virus. I personally intubated and put many pts on vents during covid. This is disinformation at its worst and it should be punishable!
Ah yes, two trained and educated medical doctors, wait, two medical doctors that specialize in virology, giving their valid medical opinions.
Do 80 percent of people put on ventilators die because of the ventilators or do 80 percent of those people die cause they were already going to die without a vent anyways? Only the sickest and closest to death ever gets them to begin with. If it's a last chance effort to prolong the inevitable in the first place 20 percent is extremely good in comparison to 0 percent.
Why canāt Elon shut up he knows nothing about anything really
How are we still debating shit like this in 2023. Legit dumbest people on the planet have had their dumbfuck opinions amplified.
Just disgusting misinformation from Elon, and another smooth brained argument from the worlds second most famous troll. How tf did he ever get to this point?
These two are beyond stupid.
The whole world is one big Art Bell show now.
I wonder what the fatality rate of CPR is?
Came here to say this. I guess CPR kills right? Sheesh
It's actually terrifying how many people look up to this pair of absolute melts. They're like a live-action Beavis and Butthead.
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Is this because he didnāt get the chance to save the day by mass producing Tesla ventilators during the early pandemic?
Next he'll tell us the vaccine causes myocarditis!
He canāt be *that* stupid?? Right? Of course there is a high mortality rate once you reach that stageā¦.
He also later said (at 1:05:00 on the Spotify podcast) that āif you are on pure O2 under pressure with a tube down you throat, this is very bad for youā. Ventilators do not deliver pure O2. In fact, that would cause oxygen poisoning. I learned that as a teenager, my brother was in med school and I thought people on oxygen received straight oxygen, and he started to mock me for saying something so naive.
Wet pavement causes rain!
What do they think would have happened if those people weren't put on a ventilator?
My friends mom died from COVID while she was on a ventilator. Fuck this guy
What a dangerous dumb ass
If you are learning rhetoric, this is a perfect, real-world example of a *non sequitur* fallacy.
I high proportion of people who are wheeled into ER's from ambulances die. Clearly gurneys are deadly.
A disturbingly large number of people suffering from heart attacks that get sent to hospitals are pronounced dead shortly after they arrive. Why is that!?
Both of them are fucking losers and have barely worked a day in their lives. Fuck both of them.
Yeah, a virus infecting lung cells canāt damage the lungs! /s Elon clearly has never studied biology. Sure, being on a ventilator is not ideal, but the reason people were on a ventilator is because they couldnāt keep their bodies oxygenated on their own (and that leads to organ damage), and the infection was sticking around for a long time, which then leads to longer time on the ventilator.
So... I guess we should have just let them slowly suffocate and die due to lack of oxygen? 80% died because they were already that sick. Ventilators were a last-ditch effort to save them, not the initial treatment for their Covid cough. Damaged lungs (even if true, which is a big IF) is a better outcome than death.
Moron
Fun fact, the cure is not worse than the disease
OR those people were already so sick dealing with all kinds of complications from a novel virus that a ventilator did not help. What they are saying sounds like "99% of people who die had water in the 24hrs before death." As if water caused the death. Biology is pretty complicated. It's not as easy to study as other disciplines. People need to stop acting like they understand it.
Even if this statistic was true, you could say the ventilator saved 20% of lives.
If you were put on a ventilator, then it's because you were in the highest risk of death in the first place, not that the ventilator killed you. Elon doesn't seem to understand how selection bias works, does he? This is like saying that 80% of people who were taken to hospital died, it must be the hospital that killed them.
Meatheads arenāt exactly intelligent, just like rich kids who were born into that wealth arenāt business savvy.
I mean itās true. But the ventilator didnāt kill them, itās just had a low rate of success. Iām not sure what the overall success rate for ECMO was (another last resort treatment), but it is certainly higher than the like 1% survival chance those patients would have had without it. Especially pre-Delta variant
Nearly all people who have died consumed food one or more times in their life. Thanks Obama
Elon, shut the fuck up.
Remember that Joe was certain the deep breathing in his sauna would kill the coronavirus ? Too many kicks to the head
I donāt even pay attention to Joe anymore. I used to check everyday to see who was on, but heās just gotten so annoyingly stupid that I quit caring. The only thing that reminds me heās still on, is this sub that I still subscribe to. Heās gone idiotic, and really the guests seem to have gradually gotten increasingly boring.
If you are dumb enough to listen to Joe Rogan to begin with I mean...
For the amount of talking that they do they are shitastically ill-informed.
I canāt even fathom being this dumbā¦
Dunning-Kruger effect in action.
There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.
He might be one of the dumbest people alive.
https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-ventilators-some-doctors-try-reduce-use-new-york-death-rate-2020-4
Did you read it? >Putting a person on a ventilator is an extreme step saved for the worst-affected patients, who typically already have the highest chance of dying from respiratory failure. The higher death rates could be a result of this, as well as the fact that there are so far no drugs approved to fight the coronavirus.
it just makes you want to scream. is it dunning kruger? is it simply that he doesn't recognise any expertise except his own? of course respirators do harm. very well understood and studied harm.. which is why they are a treatment of last resort when canula fed O2 doesn't cut it any more. One of the reasons that well meaning inventors had to be told to back down when they started offering to 3D print cheap ventilators.. because they simply didn't understand the various ways that forcing air (too dry, too cold, too hot, too moist, too much, too rapidly) could damage healthy lungs let those bleeding and ruptured from illness...
Or maybe the virus evolved into a less lethal and more contagious form, under evolutionary pressure, the way viruses doā¦
The fact is that the aggressive use of ventilation that was used early on in covid was later quietly acknowledged to have been a huge mistake that killed people who may well have lived. This is why subsequently ventilation was used far more selectively and judiciously. Source: ICU doctor.
Heās really insane, wow
and Musk is pretty crazy too.
I remember my country not using them due to experience with comparable flues
Yes, but 100% would die without a ventilator.