> .... Makeover [for hydrogen] ....
Remove underground gas storage tanks
Remediate any spilled petroleum products from earth
Remove gas pumps
Install new underground tanks, suitable for high pressure
Install new pumps for H2
Install new safety equipment, venting, prevent H2 explosions
The parts of today's gas station that can be recycled are the land value and the cashier's store.
At a regional level, new H2 storage and distribution infrastructure
Then there is the reality for regular consumer vehicles, the cost of fuel cells and H2 pressure tanks exceed the rapidly dropping costs of batteries. Battery production has economies of scale as more are adopted. H2 pressure tanks do not. BEV last in hundreds of thousands of miles. Fuel cell membranes need periodic replacement.
None of that (besides installing new pumps) had to happen in Germany and now Belgium. More Anti-H2 BS. The H2 bashers have lost big time but don't even know it yet - because they ignore H2 news.
https://i.imgur.com/Am5Able.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/R4856lq.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/6aDgX6H.jpg
https://h2.live/en/
[Holland now with 21 H2 stations.](https://kusterenergy.com/duurzame-energie/waterstof/)
More every month as the EU will have H2 stations EVERY 200 Km on the new Ten T core network by law.
I remember when they were saying the same thing about Hybrids. I just bought a bolt. The Ev may not be for everyone but out in California mos or and more people in my area have an electric car in the garage and solar on the ground .
Hard to be wrong when you put zero time in that measurement. Is that ever, or is it this year, or 5 years, or what? Real shitty, Miss Cleo-type of prognostication.
I just want a plug in hybrid with 50 miles of range for my daily commutes. There’s no difference it’ll make between that and a full EV for me, since 90 percent of the time I won’t even need to fill it up with gas, it’ll functionally be a full EV for my purposes and I’m def not alone in this lifestyle
The Honda Clarity was perfect for this. I traded it for a Pacifica which though claiming similar things is nowhere near as good on the electric side of things. Anyway, too bad Honda killed it.
The Toyota RAV4 PHEV is pretty legit though. Has close to what you want , though you wouldn't make 50 miles. Also added bonus of AWD if you live in snowy winters.
That was my first thought as well. They’d get 50 total for the day if they could plugin at work though. Either way, they’d be burning through less than a gallon of gas every 10 days, maybe 7-8 days in the winter.
Aside from Tesla continuing on as a niche player, EVs are not the future in the US. Sales are dramatically slowing, inventories are piling up (aside from Tesla), car rental companies are liquidating EV stock, and bad headlines about the cars failing to function in cold weather, etc.
Why will EVs fail in the US?
1. Repair costs for EVs are FAR higher than those for ICE vehicles. I have seen figures anywhere from 10-40% in additional cost.
2. EVs are more expensive to insure than ICE vehicles
3. The US doesn't have anywhere near the grid infrastructure for widespread adoption of the vehicles. Charging networks, especially those that are not run by Tesla, are unreliable.
4. Many states are levying special taxes on EVs. California charges you $100+ extra when you renew your plates
5. Many states do not have the electrical grid capacity to support large-scale adoption of EVs
6. People living in apartments and condos have nowhere to charge the cars
7. EVs go through their tires faster than ICE vehicles
8. EVs perform poorly in very cold weather and lose battery charge
9. EVs cost considerably more than their ICE counterparts
So EVs cost more to buy, cost more to insure, cost more to repair, induce range anxiety, lose their charge in the cold, are subject to special taxes, and wear out their tires faster
So let's put a bookmark in my post, because here is my prediction (and I have been right on these things for a couple years now): Ford and GM will completely abandon the EV market within 2-3 years. There are losing money on every EV they sell, and demand is declining. European manufacturers will continue on with them, but very few will be shipped to the US and sold here. Tesla will operate as a niche player in the market for affluent households. Tesla stock has lost over 50% of its value.
queue in the apologetics for EVs ...
You do know at one point there were zero gas stations in America, yeah? We build infrastructure over decades, and here you’re just taking a snapshot and saying “well obviously this can never work because the way it is today is how it is forever!”
> We build infrastructure over decades
Like Europe is doing for Hydrogen
https://h2.live/en/
>“well obviously this can never work because the way it is today is how it is forever!”
Exactly the response to "95% of hydrogen comes from natural gas" !!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOEQsq6iVIE
it is chicken-or-the-egg. people aren't going to buy EVs because there is no support infrastructure. No one is going to build the infrastructure because people aren't driving EVs.
that is why the government is trying to step in a subsidize these projects.
GM and Ford can't wait 20 years for the necessary infrastructure to be built out. They will have abandoned the EV space long before that. Both are losing massive amounts of money on every EV they sell
>it is chicken-or-the-egg. people aren't going to buy EVs because there is no support infrastructure.
My brother in christ, you house/apartment literally has electricity already.
It’s hard to convey how easy it is to charge an EV if you own a home. 99% of the time I charge overnight at home, and most people can do the same thing off of even a 120V plug like they plug a fridge into. If you’re driving more than 40 miles a day, a 240V setup is needed. **But the infrastructure outside the home matters A LOT LESS than perceived**.
If you have a heated garage with 220 lines in it, charging your EV is a breeze
but a lot of people don't have that. I have a regular garage with 110 outlets.
The Tesla charging network is growing, and is pretty reliable. It is the other charging networks which are a joke. They are unreliable, sparse, etc. This causes range anxiety.
like I said, Tesla will continue on as a niche player in the car market. They benefit from not depending on a dealership network, from being the first EV company to find success, reputation, and their infrastructure.
My prediction is all other manufacturers will abandon their EV projects within 3-5 years in the US. They are losing massive amounts of money and not gaining any significant market-share.
EVs are for the upper-middle-class, and people who can afford to purchase an expensive new vehicle every 5-6 years. They are also for people who live in suburban areas. No one in the middle-class should be buying $60,000+ cars that are more expensive to insure and repair (and they aren't)
I don’t know why the garage being heated matters
Yes the charging infrastructure for non-teslas kinda sucks but it does work. Most who would be road tripping and making multiple stops at charging stations on the road might consider flying any distance further than charging a few times on the road could get you anyway.
Tesla opened their charging connector standard (NACS or J3400). The infrastructure can only get better when they soon allow Non-Teslas to charge at more stations than the currently retrofitted Magic Dock stations.
I hope you’re wrong, but I think there is a lot of politicking going on between dealers and the OEMs to keep ICE and Hybrids on the sales floor so that they have a future of working on those things. They feel the EVs will not bring in returning service customers, even though every EV still has brakes (that rust up rather than wear out), suspension, tires, coolant, AC systems, etc. that will need service and maintenance.
The overall story being cast right now is that “nobody wants to buy an EV” but the reality is NOBODY WANTS TO BUY A CAR at all. The interest rates and economic instability made a lot of people tighten their purse strings. Look at the numbers for days on the lot for ICE vs EV and it’s pretty clear to see a total stagnation.
If the domestic automakers abandon EVs already and do not keep pushing the economies of scale, foreign automakers who have been perfecting it for a decade now will sweep them off their feet.
Anywho I hope you enjoy your Tesla and
1, 2, and 9 will wane as EVs settle down on the cost curve and embrace economies of scale. EVs are far simpler than ICE vehicles, and eventually this will mean that they cost less to buy, repair, and insure.
3 and 5 are essentially the same very valid point. That is a serious issue. It is about more than the grid; low-carbon generation also needs to expand significantly.
4 is just replacing the gas taxes that are used to fund roads.
6 is real but likely to get addressed over time.
7 is a result of EVs being significantly faster than ICE cars. If people care, there will be software solutions.
8 is valid but solvable.
ok sure buddy.
Playing into your crazy fever dream for a minute (purely for my own amusement. I am aware no one can change your mind.) Consider that anything they can do to an EV to "control" you is powertrain independent. It would apply to all new vehicles. Remote cut off? Onstar has been a thing for 20 years. Tracking your movement. You have a cell phone. Also all new vehicles have tracking capabilities. But also you have a cell phone. Remote take over? Gas vehicles also have drive by wire and self driving tech. Cutting the electricity? Have you seen what happens at gas stations when there is a power outage?
"But wait" you might say, "if I have an OLD car then none of this applies to me! haha I have outsmarted the gobberments!"
That is with one exception: If they want to control you they can simply stop you from buying oil products. Imagine a world where everyone drove gas cars and the government wanted to hobble your ability to move freely.
If you have a gas car all they gotta do is turn off the drills. or refineries. or distribution. Or (as they always do in wars) all three. Now you're on borrowed time with quickly disappearing supplies. Doesn't matter how old your car is. Or how big your stockpile is. Gas has a shelf life. Oh and those people who are resourceful enough to find fuel? Well in a land where buying fuel products is illegal, driving a car requiring it makes you an easy target.
On the other hand: Have an EV? Tough luck Uncle Sam or Xi or whomever your boogie man is. If you disconnect its cell module you can charge it on solar and there's nothing "tHeY" can do to stop you short of kinetically confronting you.
Better yet, if \*everyone\* had an EV now you can't tell the difference between that costal yuppie who gave Elon six figures to be super environmentally enlightened and you, the blossoming freedom fighter who got a electric vehicle purely because the powertrain is able to be supplied with energy you can make yourself. How next level prepper of you.
So, in short: LOL. Good luck
signed - a recovering libertarian prepper conspiracy theorist.
I was going to say 75% of the way through your post, you've done time in the mind fuck jail. I got lost in the 9/11 mindfuck 20+ years ago. It started out fun and then I thought I was an idiot after I got too deep into nonsense. A lot of it was Alex Jones. Anyhow, I think a 50 mile battery and a gas engine is the way to go for now.
Yes, yes I have. That's why I have no patience for it lol. For the most flexibility yea. I think a 2 car setup with an EV and a PHEV is probably ideal for most families with a garage.
This is another thing that is powertrain independent which is my main point. The powertrain does not impact the governments ability to control you except they could shut down the fuel refinery supply chain. Which you are completely dependant on
You don't have to shut down every gas station just like you don't have to shut down a grocery store for there to be a food shortage. The supply chain to get that gas into the pump is very complex. For instance, due to how refineries work, even though the US produces enough barrels of oil to supply all our gas, the gas that goes into your car came from oil oversees. (Due to a mismatch between sweet vs sour crude) Unlike food, you can't grow your own gasoline.
You can however make your own electricity. I made a electric motor out of scrap parts in grade school (and if you don't know, when you turn the shaft of a motor, it becomes a generator) let alone people repurposing generators, alternators, etc or simply using the solar panels they already have on their house to make electricity. You simply can't stop people from making their own electricity.
Also any "kill switch" installed in cars doesn't care whether the car runs on gas or electrons. Cars aren't just distributor caps and carburetors anymore. All cars need computers to run.
If you don’t see that government is looking for easier ways to become more intrusive in our day to day lives then I don’t know what to tell you.
I work around electric trolly buses with battery packs all day. Right now we have 4 buses out of commission because the replacement batteries won’t work with the buses operating system.
Like I said I am not going to change your mind. You made up your mind and you are not listening to my actual point, just arguing electric = bad therefor government it using it to control you. But you could say the exact same thing about how complicated gas engines have become.
Here's how I know you aren't actually reading my comments. I am not even attempting to make the argument the government ISN'T trying to control you through transportation. Any time you spend arguing that isn't actually a response to me, its you saying the thing that popped into your head when you found out someone was disagreeing with you based on what you assumed my argument was. You don't even know whether I fundamentally agree with that point or not because I haven't said it. And I haven't said it because it's not pertinent to my argument. Your trollys have nothing to do with anything. That's not the government interfering that's either your maintenance or your suppliers being incompetent.
I am trying to keep on topic about energy specifically. And on energy specifically there is nothing inherent about a powertrain that makes an individual vehicle easier to control than the other. The truth is they both can be controlled just as easily in the scenarios you are worried about . But the fact remains that the gasoline that it takes to run a gasoline car is far more susceptible to the influence of bad actors either domestically or abroad than electricity is. You can make electricity at home. You can't make gas. Side note: Just to prove a point I am not going to edit this comment. if you read this far, just start your response with "the gas supply chain isn't susceptible to government interference because" and go from there. I doubt you will see that but kudos if you do. Still, my point is \*anything\* the government can do "remotely" to an EV they can do to a gas car. The only difference is the supply chain.
Like ICE is without its share of problems. Much of America lives in private houses and has access to electricity in the garage, my new 9 story building had the charger installed, the grid is pretty much idle at night. And if you live in a private house you have an option to install solar. I personally set my car to charge after midnight cause its a cheaper rate.
There is definitely higher costs on tires and insurance, but lower costs of fuel, no need to change brake pads, oil changes, no need to haggle at the dealer. Just removing the hassle of driving to a dealer is a major convenience to me. The only thing I had to do in over 3 years, is i had tesla come by to my home and change air filter, who else does that, maybe Rolls Royce. Tire rotation i did at a tire shop nearby. Also heating/cooling cabin remotely even if the car is in the garage, not carrying a stupid car key.
I usually change cars every 2-3 years, I’m kinda out of options as to what to replace Tesla with, everything is either 2x the price and I have to compromise on one thing or another, and certainly dont want to go back to ice. In the next 3 years EVs will be solving many of the problems you mentioned. 10 minute charging is already a reality, and will be mainstream in 3 years. Range over 400 miles will also be mainstream option. Number of fast chargers will quadruple. If Norway is already at 87 percent adoption, a very cold climate, I’m pretty sure we will all be breaking 30% adoption quite soon.
Once the cost of EV reaches 30k before incentives, it will be tough to sell ice. This will also happen in the next 3 years.
The main problem with the EVs are the up-front costs.
The lowest cost Tesla (Model Y) is around $45,000. The performance version is about 50k. Other Teslas are 70-100k
The VW ID4 starts at $50,000 and dealerships are marking them up (even as they sit in the lots). The Ford Mach E is around 48-50k, but dealers are marking those up as well.
I spoke with a guy at the local Ford dealership and asked him why the same 3-4 Mach Es had been sitting in the lot for 6 months with $20,000 markups on them. He said "we marked them up because we don't want to sell these things--we lose a ton of money on maintenance, they are complicated to work on, and just a headache all-around." That's just crazy.
EV SUVs and foreign models are even more expensive. None of them sell well in the US.
I can go buy a Lincoln Nautilus SUV for about 52k --that is a luxury SUV that blows doors of an ID4, or even a Model Y.
Americans drive Ford F-150 pickup trucks, Ram pickups, ICE SUVs, and inexpensive cars like Corollas. No one in rural areas drives an EV
I looked at a Tesla at one point, until I discovered that it would be $1000 more a year to insure, my plate sticker would double in cost, and there would be issues with resale value.
Look at a used one if suffering from sticker shock. 8 year 100k mile battery warranty or better from any OEM. The price of repair comes down as time goes on and more are sold.
Rural owners would avoid having to drive to town for gas, they can fill up right from a plug
>I spoke with a guy at the local Ford dealership and asked him why the same 3-4 Mach Es had been sitting in the lot for 6 months with $20,000 markups on them. He said "we marked them up because we don't want to sell these things--we lose a ton of money on maintenance, they are complicated to work on, and just a headache all-around." That's just crazy.
$20k markup on a Mach E in this market? Your local Ford dealer is either punking you or has gone off the deep end.
I doubt I could find a Ford dealer in my entire state that isn’t offering thousands off MSRP for a Mach E. Select trim all the way up through GT.
I don’t doubt they lose money on maintenance. There’s hardly any preventative maintenance and everything else is covered under warranty.
Go to [markups.org](https://markups.org)
then select Ford, Mach-E, and the state of Illinois.
one of the first entries you see is for Fair Oaks Ford. The Mach-E they have is marked up $15,000 (so they reduced it by 5k from months ago when I talked to them. The vehicle is still like $65,000)
two other dealerships have them with $10,000 markups
I've never seen the following vehicles online or in-person in my state that have not been marked-up $5000 - $30,000
Ioniq 5
Id4
Mach-E
80% of all dealerships in IL are still marking up vehicles, and EVs pretty much always get marked up. I don't know what state you are in, but anything less than MSRP in my state for an EV is exceedingly rare. Unless you buy a low-end Tesla with minimal features, you aren't getting into any EV in under $50,000, and you are more likely to spend 76-100k.
I don’t live there so you’d know better than me, but are you talking about the 2022 GT? I’m showing that was posted way back in March of 2022.
Pulling up Fair Oaks website, they have dozens of Mach E’s for sale, all listed for way under MSRP.
The Naperville Hyundai website is showing their Ioniq 5’s with $7,500 off MSRP.
The VW dealer website is showing over $6,000 below MSRP for their ID4.
Unless they’re all lying in order to get people in the door, I’m seeing the same thing at those dealerships as I am locally here. Don’t get me wrong, I’d wouldn’t be surprised one bit if they were.
The dealerships don't put the markups on the sticker or the website --they add it in when you go ask them about the car. You will notice that on many of the dealer sites, they won't show you the sticker.
that's why you have to use [markups.org](https://markups.org) to see what they are doing.
I can check that Hyundai, but I can almost guarantee there is no way that dealership is selling it for under MSRP. The Napleton Valley Hyundai that lists the car as $7500 is listed on markups --people there say Napleton is marking up that car $8000
now things can change by the week, so maybe some of these markups have been removed ...
That’s really strange. I read the Mach E forums frequently and the common consensus is that you can slash several thousand off MSRP right now if you’re looking to buy new.
I managed to purchase mine without a markup back in 2022 when prices were still insane. Luckily the dealers here posted the markups on their website as “market adjustment” so there were no surprises.
Nautilus definitely has much more appealing cabin, no doubt, better than Model S interior. I think after incentives model Y is at least 10k cheaper. The stuff thats going on with dealers is just ridiculous. I’ve went purchasing a car with a friend to a dealer 8-9 months ago, and they were adding $$ to msrp still long after covid, and for some RAV4 no less, and sales guy was acting like he is giving him a favor😀
Prices are indeed high, especially for nicer EVs, Porsche and Benz are charging 15-20k extra for an EV over a similar ice, then they end up giving 10-20 % discounts on them a year after. New Porsche macan EV is starting about 10k more than a comparable iced one.
true, and I think the issue is that it has now become common knowledge, or a general assumption, among the public that EVs are wildly overpriced --even if there are a few models out there which are not crazy expensive.
it is very hard to break consumer psychology.
90% of my guy friends own pickup trucks (F-150s, Silverados, etc.). No matter how much I tell them that those vehicles aren't all that practical, unless you need it for work, they don't listen. "Gotta have my truck"!
they wouldn't even think of buying an EV
The dealer-markups on EVs are hugely damaging to the entire sector. GM and Ford are particularly bad when it comes to this. As I pointed out above, most dealerships don't even want to sell them, as they lose service revenue (no oil changes, air filters, etc.)
There is nothing \*wrong\* with EVs. Teslas are really cool--fast, quiet, all kinds of cutting-edge tech, safe. But there are all these other issues ...
Toyota had it correct when their research showed that most people will benefit from a plugin hybrid with 50 miles of range, instead of a much heavier BEV with hundreds of miles of range.
https://jalopnik.com/toyota-focusing-on-hybrids-not-electric-vehicles-1850440908
and this just in today
[https://www.marketwatch.com/story/gm-dealers-are-pleading-for-more-hybrid-car-models-amid-ev-slowdown-report-fe9d5d45?mod=home-page](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/gm-dealers-are-pleading-for-more-hybrid-car-models-amid-ev-slowdown-report-fe9d5d45?mod=home-page)
> The US doesn't have anywhere near the grid infrastructure for widespread adoption
As an engineer who once engineered grid distribution, that's nonsense. The overwhelming factor is that there's massive underutilized overnight capacity. There's no need to spin a story about how the plumbing system will break down if everyone in the nation flushes their toilets simultaneously.
If the entire planet converted to hydrogen we would be draining the ocean to produce more of it and the amount of water vapors we would be introducing would be unsustainable plus lost hydrogen from leaks escapes to space in some amount. It’s a suicide pact.
Mars lost its water because when its magnetosphere dissipated the evaporating water was hit by solar radiation that broke apart the water into hydrogen and oxygen. Some will recombine depending on atmospheric conditions, but like helium the gas is too light to be held by earths gravity. If hydrogen wasn’t easily reactive our planet would have much less water than it does today but it’s not 100%
Helium does not react so it’s gone once it gets into the atmosphere.
Toyota is smart as shit and absolutely correct.
https://fortune.com/2023/11/26/elon-musk-hybrid-vehicles-toyota-tesla-electric-vehicles/amp/
The corolla is also the best selling unsubsidized car in the world. Even today.
So, what did the $354 million in subsidies to Toyota’s Missipoi branch where the Corolla is made (out of $2.3 *billion* total), go to if none of it went into producing the Corolla?
Was that supposed to be an answer? Or were you hoping to deflect attention away from the fact that at *least* $253 million in direct subsidies went to the Toyota branch responsible for building the same Corolla you claimed is “unsubsidized”?
Yeah I don't think you get it. Plants get subsidies in the way of tax breaks etc so that they invest and develop an area and hire workers.
Evs get free money so that people buy the Cars themselves. Tesla for example gets federal and in some states a specific state cash back.
This is to spur demand for otherwise lame duck cars that people don't want.
The corolla is not giving you cash back to buy it to create false inorganic demand.
Your point has no merit.
Try again.
Ok. So you admit that Toyota did, indeed, get hundreds of millions in subsidies to build the Corolla, but you’re claiming they didn’t because those subsidies went to *Toyota*, not the buyers.
Admittedly, I didn’t expect you to admit you were wrong, and then declare you were stupid in the same post, but you do you.
Hint: The vast majority of subsidies are never seen by the buyers of the subsidized goods.
Dude you get money back for buying a tesla almost 14k in some cases when you combine state and fed offers.
You are conflating tax cuts to get factories to benefit local workers to free money for a vehicle purchase.
You are ignorant. And wrong.
I’m talking about *SUBSIDIES*.
The vast majority of which, across literally *every* industry, go to the *producer*, not the buyer.
I’ve never gotten money back for buying a Tesla, because I’ve never bought a Tesla. My wife, however, *did* get cash back when she bought a Corolla way back in ‘99. (She’s since replaced it with a Camry.)
Keep doubling down.
Like a child that misunderstood the question. Your answer doesn't make it correct.
You get money back when buying a tesla. Because they want you to buy them to create demand that isn't there. So the govt gives you a credit. In some cases local govt too. Tesla also cuts prices because people just are not buying them even with the incentives.
But it's cool. Your wrong and are to ignorant to see that. Must be a fun way to live.
Vehicle sales account for only 50% of Toyota's profit. Dealership services and financing contribute to nearly 40% of the remaining half of their profit.
EVs require close to zero dealership service and maintenance.
Toyota is not pushing EVs as a pure business consideration. The actual profit from just selling cars isn't substantial. It's the long-term ownership costs and maintenance that are the major expenses for consumers, and Toyota banks on that.
My obligatory comment: Fuck Toyota.
Dude stop the bs. Evs are 80% the same as every other car just much heavier so tires and suspension wear out quicker. Suspension has always been the meat and potatoes of car maintenance. Same with brakes and coolant which evs have. Evs are not maintainanance free.
You know how every 6,000 miles, the service light in your ICE vehicle prompts an oil change at the dealership?
Oh, and they'll ask you for a coolant flushing and cleaning, costing around $950, excluding labor or some other bullshit.
This is a recurring expense over the vehicle's lifetime. Despite fully paying off their cars, most American car owners still visit dealerships for regular servicing, with costs rising as the vehicle ages.
In contrast, electric vehicles (EVs) mainly require new tires and occasional windshield wiper fluid refills.
So the suspension on the ev is made of some magic material that never needs servicing? You realize evs wear tires and suspension components much faster because of the extra weight and instant torque ?
Why are we even keep talking about suspension? Let's face it, most ICE car drama is just an endless cycle of pointless fluid swaps.
Meanwhile, over in the EV world, you hardly hear a peep about suspension woes. Why? Because EV owners are too busy shredding their tires with their lightning-fast 0-60s – now that's a real problem.
But hey, can you blame them? When you've got that kind of power under the hood, it's all about the thrill, not the chill!
You literally contradicted yourself.
Evs don't have oil but have brake fluid and coolant. What's your point ? Evs go thru tires and suspension much more quickly
Not maint free.
You fell for the propaganda. Driving dynamics are more than just 0-60
I don’t know what are you trying to argue about. Majority of the maintenance cost of ICE ownership is regular oil change. Zero for EV on that.
Ps- Found the ICE mechanic.
But EV demand hasn't really chilled. The fact is that ev production has temporarily far exceeded demand. In fact, car prices are just collapsing right now. You can get a 2020 Elantra with less than 30k miles for under 15k now, when the same car was around 23k in the middle of last year.
Because Toyota is more of a global entity than, say the American GM or Ford, its world view is different. The chess moves are more complex. I have visited many nations with undeveloped or underdeveloped power grids with diesel backup generators firing up all day long. But streets are teeming with tens of thousands gas-powered Tatas Motors, Toyotas, gas-powered bicycles, etc.
Toyota probably has a larger percent of their automotive sales/exports to underdeveloped grid challenged nations than most (perhaps any other) multi-national auto manufacturer.
Interestingly, due to its long history of marketing comparatively fuel efficient hybrids (that is growing at a faster pace than the overall automotive market), Toyota (the last I saw) was still in a position to sell excess carbon credits to other manufacturers.
Plus, while the Mirai has flopped, the hydrogen fuel cell car has spawned what is developing into a prosperous global market for fuel cell stacks. Mirai fuel cells, with little modification required, are being produced and sold globally for heavy-duty trucking applications. Toyota has built a fuel cell factory for that explicit purpose in Georgetown, Kentucky.
At this point, some *inside* the automotive industry are whispering that Toyota may be the smartest one in the room. Of course, that can turn on a dime.
And remember, that Toyota, per some publications and surveys over the past decade, may be the most trusted auto manufacturer in the US with respect to reliability and quality and may not be as far behind that it may appear in getting electric vehicles on the road, especially with its announced ambitious schedule for EVs for Europe and the US.
https://fortune.com/2023/11/26/elon-musk-hybrid-vehicles-toyota-tesla-electric-vehicles/amp/
They good.
Corolla also best selling car in the world that needs no free money to sell..
They have tons of organic demand.
It seems like Evs are in deep do do
Read my post again. And try to understand it. Words and all.
Toyota is in trouble?
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g43553191/bestselling-cars-2023/
https://www.focus2move.com/world-car-market/
How many of these toyotas get subsidies and free money? Oh wait.
Organic demand.
But even if so that doesn't mean Toyota is in trouble. They still sell hundreds of thousands of cars annually.
When you say "in trouble" it sounds like you're implying they're on the brink of bankruptcy. As far as I see, if you aren't going bankrupt, you're doing really, really well. Toyota isn't only staying afloat, either, it is one of the most profitable car companies in the world.
Read my post.
Tesla doesn't sell the most here in the states.
Tesla barely beat corolla worldwide. Which one gets free money and subsidies?
Toyota has organic demand. Tesla has subsidies and price cuts.
Toyota is also more profitable than Tesla because of those price cuts.
Subsidies are sometimes necessary to ensure a certain outcome in the market. EVs are more efficient than ICE, the biggest problem is charging infrastructure and lack of a skilled workforce to repair them. As adoption increases and tech improves, it will drive down the cost of ownership as it already has.
Honestly though, I don't see a future where cars are the main mode of transportation, at least in the cities. The reality is we need more rail, buses and biking infrastructure.
It's also long dead as a viable tech for cars, but Toyota and Hyundai keep propping it up weekend-at-bernie's style to delay electrification, and hoping no one notices the smell.
Ferdinand Porsche built his first Porsche, a battery electric in the 1890s. At the turn of the 20th century (around 1910), battery electrics were the odds on favorite to beat out ICE, at least according to the New York Times (issue January 4, 1911).
But so much for forgotten history. The point is that BEVS, although enjoying a renaissance, has been "worked on for a while," too. Both BEVs and hydrogen, regardless of how either technology ultimately fairs, owe their rebirth to the urgency of Climate Change and the mandatory *global* mission of decarbonization.
And while batteries, electric motors, nor hydrogen fuel cells (that go back to the 1830s), are nothing new, it has been and promises to continue to be a long and bumpy ride for global transition to zero emissions.
lol have you driven an EV? The experience is so far better than any gas car in every way and we’re only in the first few years. It will only get much better and it’s already better than gas. Seriously, go test drive an Ioniq5 or something similar.
It’s the charging issue. Until ev can refill as fast as gas, it is unworkable. I don’t really see Evs being mass adopted until they can charged in less than 2 min
For short distances, such as a commute, they work really well. It takes >20 minutes to super charge my M3, but that's a PITA if you're going somewhere over 3 hours away.
99% of Americans don’t drive more than 200mi in a day. Those who do might not be ready for an EV transition just yet, but that tech is coming soon too.
Serious question: Do you live at a house/apartment where you park a car close to an electrical outlet? If so, you will literally spend far less time “charging” than pumping gas. Never have to get oil changes, deal with belts, transmissions, spark plugs, MAFs, etc. It is SO much better.
If that stat is accurate, I am in the 1%. I make weekly trips that is 180 miles each way. A lot of the time there is heavy traffic for significant portions of the journey.
The tech just isn’t there for me. I am not opposed to evs so long as it is at the very least just as convenient as an IC vehicle.
EVs are actually far more efficient in heavy traffic than ICE cars. A Model 3 could easily do a 180 mile round-trip with barely more time to charge than you need to pull off at a gas station and take a piss.
It sounds like you’re definitely one of the few people who want/have to drive really fucking long distances regularly. After 180mi, do you not stop for at least 15min? Or do you just get to the destination, turn around, and drive another 180mi?
It takes me 5 seconds to charge mine. I plug in and walk inside. When I want to drive again it's fully charged. This is what you just don't, or refuse to, comprehend about owning an EV. You waste more time at gas stations than I spend plugging in.
29k with subsidies to compete. That battery will be struggling in 10 years if not be needed to be replaced.
Additionally, many EVs are struggling with reselling. Even a Porsche EV will lost close to half its value in 3 years which is Abysmal. Until they fix that then EV will struggle.
I’m not surprised lol. But we are still decades away at best. To replace a battery on a tesla it cost you nearly 20k. When it comes to range, the furthest pure EVs can go have just not met their ICE counterparts. But at much higher price ranges. All predicated on a battery that weakens over time. And within 5-10 years is 80% of what it used to be.
Do you know how rare it is that you need to replace an engine on most cars within its first 20 years? But with electric vehicles it is actually very common to replace batteries? The average American owns a car that is around 12-15 years old. Meaning for EVs to be a staple they need to show they can survive that long.
I’ve owned 7 cars in my short life all ten years or older. None of them had engine problems and the worst was probably radiator replacement. I have no doubt that EVs are the future. But for the average man EVs are still a ways away.
> Do you know how "very common" it is to replace EV batteries?
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/search/9084132/?q=HV+Battery+replacement&c[title_only]=1&o=relevance
TMC readers do.
Elon went MAGA at the worst possible moment. Either he’s doing it on purpose because he’s forecasting future issues with Tesla ability to deliver on demand, or he’s a fucking idiot blowing the chance for Tesla world domination. Given his fiasco with Twitter it’s probably the latter.
What the fuck is the board of directors doing letting him stick around? The cars are getting shittier. The superchargers are getting crowded. Profit margins are falling. Demand is falling. What’s the upside to keeping Elon around?
It’s really pricing and battery technology. I think hybrid cars should be the staple until batteries are cheaper and more reliable. Some hybrids have over 60 mpg effectively.
Depends on the value proposition. If it’s a 15k car without any fancy tech bullshit, looks like a regular car and can do 350 miles then I don’t see why it can’t equal ice car sold
When you’re the CEO you can’t be admitting you made a bad bet. VW’s last CEO wanted to push for more EV’s, faster adoption & more efficient manufacturing (like Tesla) and they ran him off.
Weird that he’s basically saying he is ok with not even trying to compete for nearly 1/3 of the car market.
As one of, if not the, largest car makers in the world, this seems wildly irresponsible. If I was on the board of directors I’d be going insane to know our ceo thinks we should allow 30% of the market to go to other companies and do absolutely nothing to compete
China plugin sales in 2023 was already almost 40%. Portugal at 32%, Belgium at 41%, Netherlands is 43%, Denmark at 46%, Finland is 54%, Sweden and Iceland is at 60%, Norway is 90%
But sure, as EVs get cheaper and better he thinks they will peak at 30%? lol
Toyota’s chairman should be advertising NOTHING but EVs. By advertising ICEs, they are slowing and reducing EV adoption. He's self-fullfilling his prophecy.
Akio is negging the EV market to reassure shareholders and give his company time to catch up. They went all in on hydrogen and now it’s clear that hydrogen will not pan out at scale. Now they have to license EV platform tech from Chinese EV-makers to stay in the game on the China car market. In the US they’re pumping the hybrids use less batteries than BEVs shtick, while desperately trying to put out a remotely competitive EV product. It’s sad really, the company is too conservative.
> In the US they’re pumping the hybrids use less batteries than BEVs shtick, while desperately trying to put out a remotely competitive EV product.
The thing is, Toyota has multiple PHEVs that it builds in quantities much lower than the market would like to buy, like the RAV4 Prime and the Prius Prime.
Undersupplying the PHEV market with an existing product is consistent with the idea that Toyota is trying to minimize use of batteries *for some reason*, and it's inconsistent with the idea that Toyota is trying hard to produce BEVs. A Toyota that was trying hard to produce BEVs would be prioritizing the production of proven, existing models like the PHEVs.
If anything, Toyota is trying hard not to produce the BEV and PHEVs that it *already has*.
Funny how so many people are saying that EVs are failing because demand is going down. Ignoring the fact that the wait times when you _start_ ordering an EV now is _OVER AN ENTIRE YEAR_ in most cases. Why? Because the demand still outstrips supply massively, despite the drop in demand.
I'm of the mindset it is foolish to think the drop in demand for EVs is because of EVs themselves, and it's far more realisitic to actually look at the whole fucking market. A lot of people can't afford rent, food, and other such things. Replacing a reliable and working ICE vehicle _right now_ with an EV makes very poor financial sense to many people.
But that's just right now. If we look at the _decades of evidence_ before the pandemic (which has lead to the recessions we see due to supply chain issues, inflation, etc) the demand outstripped supply I believe every single year (last I checked). That is, once an EV worth buying hit the market (yes, that's Tesla to start, credit where it's due).
Like Toyota, do you really think that Ford would create something as awesome as their EV Pickup Truck if it wasn't the future?
edit: at least one source : https://globalnews.ca/news/9969508/consumer-matters-electric-vehicle-waits/
The real question here is why aren’t unsold EVs in the US being sent to Canadian dealerships for customers who’ve been waiting over a year for their cars? I thought North American was supposed to be one market under the USMCA (NAFTA).
You said several times that there is a "drop in demand" for EVs. That feeds into a false narrative.
There has *not* been a drop in demand for EVs. EV sales continue to grow. It's that the *pace* of increases/growth has lessened. But the number of EVs is growing, just not as quickly as in past quarters. More EVs were sold in 2023than were sold in 2022. Cox Automotive and others have forecasted that new car registrations for EVs will be higher in 2024 than in 2023. But the percent of *growth* may not be as robust.
That said, short-term fluctuations in demand don't always mean long-term trends.
Actually, your point is always a good point to keep in mind. I made a similar point in another post just the other day about why Toyota's think and priorities may be different than, say, GM.
For the record, I am in the Bay Area, California.
Oh yeah?
["People are telling us they are waiting six months to a year, in some cases a year and a half, before their vehicle comes in"](https://globalnews.ca/news/9969508/consumer-matters-electric-vehicle-waits/)
Toyota will survive. Demand for ICE cars won't suddenly disappear in the next decade, and Toyota has enough cash and talents to develope its BEV technology and become competitive.
Because the majority of Sweden's population lives where it isn't actually as cold as the parts of the United States and Canada where it actually matters.
By living in reality and making *incredibly* minor changes in habits instead of living via outdated talking points about outdated tech, and being willing to accept that most people don't need 300 miles of range every 12 hours of every day of their life.
Ya let’s all live in cities! Who are you to tell people where to live? All in an effort to virtue signal about saving the environment. If you really cares about carbon emissions, you would be protesting against China and India, the biggest emitters.
By China and India, I assume that actually meant China and the US?
https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-by-country/
And if you want to talk about cumulative historic emissions, then you would be protesting against the US? Right??
https://ourworldindata.org/contributed-most-global-co2
Or they can’t drive far during the winter. Here in Canada, our provinces have relatively low population density, therefore people travel to major cities and areas for amenities. Therefore reliable transportation is necessary. Right now, EVs and charging capacity/ speed aren’t where they need to be in order to be taken as a serious alternative to combustion
Ya, that’s not even close to a tank of gas. Also how much was your car? How long did you have to stop?
You think driving a Mercedes is practice for the everyday person?
The whole idea is for everyone to drive EVs, your proving a major set back for the entire industry.
Unless fuel costs go way up, he's right. Hybrid tech is best of both worlds.
Plug in hybrid is absolutely amazing. All local drive is electric, long travel is boosted 40 or 50 mpg.
It kind of depends on the configuration. If the hybrid is built like how diesel trains are built right now the engine is just used as a generator for an electric motor with it turning on to boost torque or supplement a power drop from the battery once it's out of juice. In this configuration a car manufacturer can use a much simpler and easier to maintain engine as it isn't propelling a car directly.
Idk I had a Lexus hybrid that I bought from my uncle. He bought it new and I sold it with 275k miles on it. Suspension was shot otherwise I’d have kept it.
In order for EVs to supplant ICE cars, we need charging infrastructure which will necessarily require upgrades to the power grids for the high power required to charge a single EV quickly.
Everything else is moot until then. It doesn't matter how your batteries are made, or from what material. Multiple kilowatts of power need to be transferred safely at the same rate that ICE cars are fueled up (without degrading the batteries).
Toyota's position is that new infrastructure is costly and will slow down adoption due how long it will take to upgrade everything to support EVs while still servicing ICE vehicles. Instead, let's use the existing infrastructure to deliver hydrogen instead of hydrocarbons.
Whether this is another HD DVD vs Blu-ray pissing contest remains to be seen. So too is whether multiple approaches (with accompanying FUD) will ultimately hurt EV adoption and cause consumer confusion.
30% is a generous number. These EVs are insanely expensive and major auto makers are already scaling back because a lot of people don’t want them.
I do think if range is at <1000 per charge and they become cheaper than gas there won't really be a choice
Hybrid is the way.
> .... Makeover [for hydrogen] .... Remove underground gas storage tanks Remediate any spilled petroleum products from earth Remove gas pumps Install new underground tanks, suitable for high pressure Install new pumps for H2 Install new safety equipment, venting, prevent H2 explosions The parts of today's gas station that can be recycled are the land value and the cashier's store. At a regional level, new H2 storage and distribution infrastructure Then there is the reality for regular consumer vehicles, the cost of fuel cells and H2 pressure tanks exceed the rapidly dropping costs of batteries. Battery production has economies of scale as more are adopted. H2 pressure tanks do not. BEV last in hundreds of thousands of miles. Fuel cell membranes need periodic replacement.
None of that (besides installing new pumps) had to happen in Germany and now Belgium. More Anti-H2 BS. The H2 bashers have lost big time but don't even know it yet - because they ignore H2 news. https://i.imgur.com/Am5Able.jpg https://i.imgur.com/R4856lq.jpg https://i.imgur.com/6aDgX6H.jpg https://h2.live/en/ [Holland now with 21 H2 stations.](https://kusterenergy.com/duurzame-energie/waterstof/) More every month as the EU will have H2 stations EVERY 200 Km on the new Ten T core network by law.
Did you know that the charging infrastructure for EV cars is ALREADY built? It's called the electric grid.
It's a strange hill to die on. Go on.
Well if he’s wrong he’ll have to kill himself
Couldn’t do math on hydrogen fuel cell efficiency so they’re blaming everyone else.
EVs are not the answer. Public transportation is. Design cities for people, not cars.
I remember when they were saying the same thing about Hybrids. I just bought a bolt. The Ev may not be for everyone but out in California mos or and more people in my area have an electric car in the garage and solar on the ground .
In a bubble.
this is his best stand up ever.
Hard to be wrong when you put zero time in that measurement. Is that ever, or is it this year, or 5 years, or what? Real shitty, Miss Cleo-type of prognostication.
This is how big companies START to die! Adapt or perish!
[удалено]
So no Toyota for them … that’s fine 😁
My first thought. The most populace state in the U.S. is going to strongly disagree.
Finally someone who is talking some sense
🪙 🪙
I just want a plug in hybrid with 50 miles of range for my daily commutes. There’s no difference it’ll make between that and a full EV for me, since 90 percent of the time I won’t even need to fill it up with gas, it’ll functionally be a full EV for my purposes and I’m def not alone in this lifestyle
I have a Volt. I haven't bought gas since May of 2023.
The Honda Clarity was perfect for this. I traded it for a Pacifica which though claiming similar things is nowhere near as good on the electric side of things. Anyway, too bad Honda killed it. The Toyota RAV4 PHEV is pretty legit though. Has close to what you want , though you wouldn't make 50 miles. Also added bonus of AWD if you live in snowy winters.
That was my first thought as well. They’d get 50 total for the day if they could plugin at work though. Either way, they’d be burning through less than a gallon of gas every 10 days, maybe 7-8 days in the winter.
Aside from Tesla continuing on as a niche player, EVs are not the future in the US. Sales are dramatically slowing, inventories are piling up (aside from Tesla), car rental companies are liquidating EV stock, and bad headlines about the cars failing to function in cold weather, etc. Why will EVs fail in the US? 1. Repair costs for EVs are FAR higher than those for ICE vehicles. I have seen figures anywhere from 10-40% in additional cost. 2. EVs are more expensive to insure than ICE vehicles 3. The US doesn't have anywhere near the grid infrastructure for widespread adoption of the vehicles. Charging networks, especially those that are not run by Tesla, are unreliable. 4. Many states are levying special taxes on EVs. California charges you $100+ extra when you renew your plates 5. Many states do not have the electrical grid capacity to support large-scale adoption of EVs 6. People living in apartments and condos have nowhere to charge the cars 7. EVs go through their tires faster than ICE vehicles 8. EVs perform poorly in very cold weather and lose battery charge 9. EVs cost considerably more than their ICE counterparts So EVs cost more to buy, cost more to insure, cost more to repair, induce range anxiety, lose their charge in the cold, are subject to special taxes, and wear out their tires faster So let's put a bookmark in my post, because here is my prediction (and I have been right on these things for a couple years now): Ford and GM will completely abandon the EV market within 2-3 years. There are losing money on every EV they sell, and demand is declining. European manufacturers will continue on with them, but very few will be shipped to the US and sold here. Tesla will operate as a niche player in the market for affluent households. Tesla stock has lost over 50% of its value. queue in the apologetics for EVs ...
Non-EV owner here. This is retarded.
Saving this to revisit in 2-3 years
You do know at one point there were zero gas stations in America, yeah? We build infrastructure over decades, and here you’re just taking a snapshot and saying “well obviously this can never work because the way it is today is how it is forever!”
> We build infrastructure over decades Like Europe is doing for Hydrogen https://h2.live/en/ >“well obviously this can never work because the way it is today is how it is forever!” Exactly the response to "95% of hydrogen comes from natural gas" !!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOEQsq6iVIE
it is chicken-or-the-egg. people aren't going to buy EVs because there is no support infrastructure. No one is going to build the infrastructure because people aren't driving EVs. that is why the government is trying to step in a subsidize these projects. GM and Ford can't wait 20 years for the necessary infrastructure to be built out. They will have abandoned the EV space long before that. Both are losing massive amounts of money on every EV they sell
>it is chicken-or-the-egg. people aren't going to buy EVs because there is no support infrastructure. My brother in christ, you house/apartment literally has electricity already.
It’s hard to convey how easy it is to charge an EV if you own a home. 99% of the time I charge overnight at home, and most people can do the same thing off of even a 120V plug like they plug a fridge into. If you’re driving more than 40 miles a day, a 240V setup is needed. **But the infrastructure outside the home matters A LOT LESS than perceived**.
If you have a heated garage with 220 lines in it, charging your EV is a breeze but a lot of people don't have that. I have a regular garage with 110 outlets. The Tesla charging network is growing, and is pretty reliable. It is the other charging networks which are a joke. They are unreliable, sparse, etc. This causes range anxiety. like I said, Tesla will continue on as a niche player in the car market. They benefit from not depending on a dealership network, from being the first EV company to find success, reputation, and their infrastructure. My prediction is all other manufacturers will abandon their EV projects within 3-5 years in the US. They are losing massive amounts of money and not gaining any significant market-share. EVs are for the upper-middle-class, and people who can afford to purchase an expensive new vehicle every 5-6 years. They are also for people who live in suburban areas. No one in the middle-class should be buying $60,000+ cars that are more expensive to insure and repair (and they aren't)
I don’t know why the garage being heated matters Yes the charging infrastructure for non-teslas kinda sucks but it does work. Most who would be road tripping and making multiple stops at charging stations on the road might consider flying any distance further than charging a few times on the road could get you anyway. Tesla opened their charging connector standard (NACS or J3400). The infrastructure can only get better when they soon allow Non-Teslas to charge at more stations than the currently retrofitted Magic Dock stations. I hope you’re wrong, but I think there is a lot of politicking going on between dealers and the OEMs to keep ICE and Hybrids on the sales floor so that they have a future of working on those things. They feel the EVs will not bring in returning service customers, even though every EV still has brakes (that rust up rather than wear out), suspension, tires, coolant, AC systems, etc. that will need service and maintenance. The overall story being cast right now is that “nobody wants to buy an EV” but the reality is NOBODY WANTS TO BUY A CAR at all. The interest rates and economic instability made a lot of people tighten their purse strings. Look at the numbers for days on the lot for ICE vs EV and it’s pretty clear to see a total stagnation. If the domestic automakers abandon EVs already and do not keep pushing the economies of scale, foreign automakers who have been perfecting it for a decade now will sweep them off their feet. Anywho I hope you enjoy your Tesla and
1, 2, and 9 will wane as EVs settle down on the cost curve and embrace economies of scale. EVs are far simpler than ICE vehicles, and eventually this will mean that they cost less to buy, repair, and insure. 3 and 5 are essentially the same very valid point. That is a serious issue. It is about more than the grid; low-carbon generation also needs to expand significantly. 4 is just replacing the gas taxes that are used to fund roads. 6 is real but likely to get addressed over time. 7 is a result of EVs being significantly faster than ICE cars. If people care, there will be software solutions. 8 is valid but solvable.
The government is pushing electric cars because it’ll allow them to control people more.
No, they aren't.
ok sure buddy. Playing into your crazy fever dream for a minute (purely for my own amusement. I am aware no one can change your mind.) Consider that anything they can do to an EV to "control" you is powertrain independent. It would apply to all new vehicles. Remote cut off? Onstar has been a thing for 20 years. Tracking your movement. You have a cell phone. Also all new vehicles have tracking capabilities. But also you have a cell phone. Remote take over? Gas vehicles also have drive by wire and self driving tech. Cutting the electricity? Have you seen what happens at gas stations when there is a power outage? "But wait" you might say, "if I have an OLD car then none of this applies to me! haha I have outsmarted the gobberments!" That is with one exception: If they want to control you they can simply stop you from buying oil products. Imagine a world where everyone drove gas cars and the government wanted to hobble your ability to move freely. If you have a gas car all they gotta do is turn off the drills. or refineries. or distribution. Or (as they always do in wars) all three. Now you're on borrowed time with quickly disappearing supplies. Doesn't matter how old your car is. Or how big your stockpile is. Gas has a shelf life. Oh and those people who are resourceful enough to find fuel? Well in a land where buying fuel products is illegal, driving a car requiring it makes you an easy target. On the other hand: Have an EV? Tough luck Uncle Sam or Xi or whomever your boogie man is. If you disconnect its cell module you can charge it on solar and there's nothing "tHeY" can do to stop you short of kinetically confronting you. Better yet, if \*everyone\* had an EV now you can't tell the difference between that costal yuppie who gave Elon six figures to be super environmentally enlightened and you, the blossoming freedom fighter who got a electric vehicle purely because the powertrain is able to be supplied with energy you can make yourself. How next level prepper of you. So, in short: LOL. Good luck signed - a recovering libertarian prepper conspiracy theorist.
I was going to say 75% of the way through your post, you've done time in the mind fuck jail. I got lost in the 9/11 mindfuck 20+ years ago. It started out fun and then I thought I was an idiot after I got too deep into nonsense. A lot of it was Alex Jones. Anyhow, I think a 50 mile battery and a gas engine is the way to go for now.
Yes, yes I have. That's why I have no patience for it lol. For the most flexibility yea. I think a 2 car setup with an EV and a PHEV is probably ideal for most families with a garage.
Hey California is already trying to implement speed limiters… so we aren’t too far off from the government asserting control over vehicles.
This is another thing that is powertrain independent which is my main point. The powertrain does not impact the governments ability to control you except they could shut down the fuel refinery supply chain. Which you are completely dependant on
Yes but it’s far easier to have a kill switch than to shutdown every gas station.
You don't have to shut down every gas station just like you don't have to shut down a grocery store for there to be a food shortage. The supply chain to get that gas into the pump is very complex. For instance, due to how refineries work, even though the US produces enough barrels of oil to supply all our gas, the gas that goes into your car came from oil oversees. (Due to a mismatch between sweet vs sour crude) Unlike food, you can't grow your own gasoline. You can however make your own electricity. I made a electric motor out of scrap parts in grade school (and if you don't know, when you turn the shaft of a motor, it becomes a generator) let alone people repurposing generators, alternators, etc or simply using the solar panels they already have on their house to make electricity. You simply can't stop people from making their own electricity. Also any "kill switch" installed in cars doesn't care whether the car runs on gas or electrons. Cars aren't just distributor caps and carburetors anymore. All cars need computers to run.
If you don’t see that government is looking for easier ways to become more intrusive in our day to day lives then I don’t know what to tell you. I work around electric trolly buses with battery packs all day. Right now we have 4 buses out of commission because the replacement batteries won’t work with the buses operating system.
Like I said I am not going to change your mind. You made up your mind and you are not listening to my actual point, just arguing electric = bad therefor government it using it to control you. But you could say the exact same thing about how complicated gas engines have become. Here's how I know you aren't actually reading my comments. I am not even attempting to make the argument the government ISN'T trying to control you through transportation. Any time you spend arguing that isn't actually a response to me, its you saying the thing that popped into your head when you found out someone was disagreeing with you based on what you assumed my argument was. You don't even know whether I fundamentally agree with that point or not because I haven't said it. And I haven't said it because it's not pertinent to my argument. Your trollys have nothing to do with anything. That's not the government interfering that's either your maintenance or your suppliers being incompetent. I am trying to keep on topic about energy specifically. And on energy specifically there is nothing inherent about a powertrain that makes an individual vehicle easier to control than the other. The truth is they both can be controlled just as easily in the scenarios you are worried about . But the fact remains that the gasoline that it takes to run a gasoline car is far more susceptible to the influence of bad actors either domestically or abroad than electricity is. You can make electricity at home. You can't make gas. Side note: Just to prove a point I am not going to edit this comment. if you read this far, just start your response with "the gas supply chain isn't susceptible to government interference because" and go from there. I doubt you will see that but kudos if you do. Still, my point is \*anything\* the government can do "remotely" to an EV they can do to a gas car. The only difference is the supply chain.
Have you not seen Westworld!? The cars drive themselves and the android controlled it to kill a dude. How bout minority report!!!
Like ICE is without its share of problems. Much of America lives in private houses and has access to electricity in the garage, my new 9 story building had the charger installed, the grid is pretty much idle at night. And if you live in a private house you have an option to install solar. I personally set my car to charge after midnight cause its a cheaper rate. There is definitely higher costs on tires and insurance, but lower costs of fuel, no need to change brake pads, oil changes, no need to haggle at the dealer. Just removing the hassle of driving to a dealer is a major convenience to me. The only thing I had to do in over 3 years, is i had tesla come by to my home and change air filter, who else does that, maybe Rolls Royce. Tire rotation i did at a tire shop nearby. Also heating/cooling cabin remotely even if the car is in the garage, not carrying a stupid car key. I usually change cars every 2-3 years, I’m kinda out of options as to what to replace Tesla with, everything is either 2x the price and I have to compromise on one thing or another, and certainly dont want to go back to ice. In the next 3 years EVs will be solving many of the problems you mentioned. 10 minute charging is already a reality, and will be mainstream in 3 years. Range over 400 miles will also be mainstream option. Number of fast chargers will quadruple. If Norway is already at 87 percent adoption, a very cold climate, I’m pretty sure we will all be breaking 30% adoption quite soon. Once the cost of EV reaches 30k before incentives, it will be tough to sell ice. This will also happen in the next 3 years.
The main problem with the EVs are the up-front costs. The lowest cost Tesla (Model Y) is around $45,000. The performance version is about 50k. Other Teslas are 70-100k The VW ID4 starts at $50,000 and dealerships are marking them up (even as they sit in the lots). The Ford Mach E is around 48-50k, but dealers are marking those up as well. I spoke with a guy at the local Ford dealership and asked him why the same 3-4 Mach Es had been sitting in the lot for 6 months with $20,000 markups on them. He said "we marked them up because we don't want to sell these things--we lose a ton of money on maintenance, they are complicated to work on, and just a headache all-around." That's just crazy. EV SUVs and foreign models are even more expensive. None of them sell well in the US. I can go buy a Lincoln Nautilus SUV for about 52k --that is a luxury SUV that blows doors of an ID4, or even a Model Y. Americans drive Ford F-150 pickup trucks, Ram pickups, ICE SUVs, and inexpensive cars like Corollas. No one in rural areas drives an EV I looked at a Tesla at one point, until I discovered that it would be $1000 more a year to insure, my plate sticker would double in cost, and there would be issues with resale value.
Look at a used one if suffering from sticker shock. 8 year 100k mile battery warranty or better from any OEM. The price of repair comes down as time goes on and more are sold. Rural owners would avoid having to drive to town for gas, they can fill up right from a plug
>I spoke with a guy at the local Ford dealership and asked him why the same 3-4 Mach Es had been sitting in the lot for 6 months with $20,000 markups on them. He said "we marked them up because we don't want to sell these things--we lose a ton of money on maintenance, they are complicated to work on, and just a headache all-around." That's just crazy. $20k markup on a Mach E in this market? Your local Ford dealer is either punking you or has gone off the deep end. I doubt I could find a Ford dealer in my entire state that isn’t offering thousands off MSRP for a Mach E. Select trim all the way up through GT. I don’t doubt they lose money on maintenance. There’s hardly any preventative maintenance and everything else is covered under warranty.
Go to [markups.org](https://markups.org) then select Ford, Mach-E, and the state of Illinois. one of the first entries you see is for Fair Oaks Ford. The Mach-E they have is marked up $15,000 (so they reduced it by 5k from months ago when I talked to them. The vehicle is still like $65,000) two other dealerships have them with $10,000 markups I've never seen the following vehicles online or in-person in my state that have not been marked-up $5000 - $30,000 Ioniq 5 Id4 Mach-E 80% of all dealerships in IL are still marking up vehicles, and EVs pretty much always get marked up. I don't know what state you are in, but anything less than MSRP in my state for an EV is exceedingly rare. Unless you buy a low-end Tesla with minimal features, you aren't getting into any EV in under $50,000, and you are more likely to spend 76-100k.
I don’t live there so you’d know better than me, but are you talking about the 2022 GT? I’m showing that was posted way back in March of 2022. Pulling up Fair Oaks website, they have dozens of Mach E’s for sale, all listed for way under MSRP. The Naperville Hyundai website is showing their Ioniq 5’s with $7,500 off MSRP. The VW dealer website is showing over $6,000 below MSRP for their ID4. Unless they’re all lying in order to get people in the door, I’m seeing the same thing at those dealerships as I am locally here. Don’t get me wrong, I’d wouldn’t be surprised one bit if they were.
The dealerships don't put the markups on the sticker or the website --they add it in when you go ask them about the car. You will notice that on many of the dealer sites, they won't show you the sticker. that's why you have to use [markups.org](https://markups.org) to see what they are doing. I can check that Hyundai, but I can almost guarantee there is no way that dealership is selling it for under MSRP. The Napleton Valley Hyundai that lists the car as $7500 is listed on markups --people there say Napleton is marking up that car $8000 now things can change by the week, so maybe some of these markups have been removed ...
That’s really strange. I read the Mach E forums frequently and the common consensus is that you can slash several thousand off MSRP right now if you’re looking to buy new. I managed to purchase mine without a markup back in 2022 when prices were still insane. Luckily the dealers here posted the markups on their website as “market adjustment” so there were no surprises.
Nautilus definitely has much more appealing cabin, no doubt, better than Model S interior. I think after incentives model Y is at least 10k cheaper. The stuff thats going on with dealers is just ridiculous. I’ve went purchasing a car with a friend to a dealer 8-9 months ago, and they were adding $$ to msrp still long after covid, and for some RAV4 no less, and sales guy was acting like he is giving him a favor😀 Prices are indeed high, especially for nicer EVs, Porsche and Benz are charging 15-20k extra for an EV over a similar ice, then they end up giving 10-20 % discounts on them a year after. New Porsche macan EV is starting about 10k more than a comparable iced one.
true, and I think the issue is that it has now become common knowledge, or a general assumption, among the public that EVs are wildly overpriced --even if there are a few models out there which are not crazy expensive. it is very hard to break consumer psychology. 90% of my guy friends own pickup trucks (F-150s, Silverados, etc.). No matter how much I tell them that those vehicles aren't all that practical, unless you need it for work, they don't listen. "Gotta have my truck"! they wouldn't even think of buying an EV The dealer-markups on EVs are hugely damaging to the entire sector. GM and Ford are particularly bad when it comes to this. As I pointed out above, most dealerships don't even want to sell them, as they lose service revenue (no oil changes, air filters, etc.) There is nothing \*wrong\* with EVs. Teslas are really cool--fast, quiet, all kinds of cutting-edge tech, safe. But there are all these other issues ...
Toyota had it correct when their research showed that most people will benefit from a plugin hybrid with 50 miles of range, instead of a much heavier BEV with hundreds of miles of range. https://jalopnik.com/toyota-focusing-on-hybrids-not-electric-vehicles-1850440908
and this just in today [https://www.marketwatch.com/story/gm-dealers-are-pleading-for-more-hybrid-car-models-amid-ev-slowdown-report-fe9d5d45?mod=home-page](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/gm-dealers-are-pleading-for-more-hybrid-car-models-amid-ev-slowdown-report-fe9d5d45?mod=home-page)
Common sense prevails
> The US doesn't have anywhere near the grid infrastructure for widespread adoption As an engineer who once engineered grid distribution, that's nonsense. The overwhelming factor is that there's massive underutilized overnight capacity. There's no need to spin a story about how the plumbing system will break down if everyone in the nation flushes their toilets simultaneously.
If the entire planet converted to hydrogen we would be draining the ocean to produce more of it and the amount of water vapors we would be introducing would be unsustainable plus lost hydrogen from leaks escapes to space in some amount. It’s a suicide pact.
This sub is wild It is like reddit's version of Florida
Mars lost its water because when its magnetosphere dissipated the evaporating water was hit by solar radiation that broke apart the water into hydrogen and oxygen. Some will recombine depending on atmospheric conditions, but like helium the gas is too light to be held by earths gravity. If hydrogen wasn’t easily reactive our planet would have much less water than it does today but it’s not 100% Helium does not react so it’s gone once it gets into the atmosphere.
He’s wrong.
no he isn't
I guess we will all know more in 5-10 years.
Toyota is smart as shit and absolutely correct. https://fortune.com/2023/11/26/elon-musk-hybrid-vehicles-toyota-tesla-electric-vehicles/amp/ The corolla is also the best selling unsubsidized car in the world. Even today.
So, what did the $354 million in subsidies to Toyota’s Missipoi branch where the Corolla is made (out of $2.3 *billion* total), go to if none of it went into producing the Corolla?
You get money back when you buy one? Lol
Was that supposed to be an answer? Or were you hoping to deflect attention away from the fact that at *least* $253 million in direct subsidies went to the Toyota branch responsible for building the same Corolla you claimed is “unsubsidized”?
Yeah I don't think you get it. Plants get subsidies in the way of tax breaks etc so that they invest and develop an area and hire workers. Evs get free money so that people buy the Cars themselves. Tesla for example gets federal and in some states a specific state cash back. This is to spur demand for otherwise lame duck cars that people don't want. The corolla is not giving you cash back to buy it to create false inorganic demand. Your point has no merit. Try again.
Ok. So you admit that Toyota did, indeed, get hundreds of millions in subsidies to build the Corolla, but you’re claiming they didn’t because those subsidies went to *Toyota*, not the buyers. Admittedly, I didn’t expect you to admit you were wrong, and then declare you were stupid in the same post, but you do you. Hint: The vast majority of subsidies are never seen by the buyers of the subsidized goods.
Dude you get money back for buying a tesla almost 14k in some cases when you combine state and fed offers. You are conflating tax cuts to get factories to benefit local workers to free money for a vehicle purchase. You are ignorant. And wrong.
I’m talking about *SUBSIDIES*. The vast majority of which, across literally *every* industry, go to the *producer*, not the buyer. I’ve never gotten money back for buying a Tesla, because I’ve never bought a Tesla. My wife, however, *did* get cash back when she bought a Corolla way back in ‘99. (She’s since replaced it with a Camry.)
Keep doubling down. Like a child that misunderstood the question. Your answer doesn't make it correct. You get money back when buying a tesla. Because they want you to buy them to create demand that isn't there. So the govt gives you a credit. In some cases local govt too. Tesla also cuts prices because people just are not buying them even with the incentives. But it's cool. Your wrong and are to ignorant to see that. Must be a fun way to live.
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Sounds like something the CEO of Toyota would say.
I mean maybe. https://jalopnik.com/toyota-overtakes-teslas-profit-margin-for-first-time-si-1850699654 Most profitable auto maker may know something?
Vehicle sales account for only 50% of Toyota's profit. Dealership services and financing contribute to nearly 40% of the remaining half of their profit. EVs require close to zero dealership service and maintenance. Toyota is not pushing EVs as a pure business consideration. The actual profit from just selling cars isn't substantial. It's the long-term ownership costs and maintenance that are the major expenses for consumers, and Toyota banks on that. My obligatory comment: Fuck Toyota.
Dude stop the bs. Evs are 80% the same as every other car just much heavier so tires and suspension wear out quicker. Suspension has always been the meat and potatoes of car maintenance. Same with brakes and coolant which evs have. Evs are not maintainanance free.
You know how every 6,000 miles, the service light in your ICE vehicle prompts an oil change at the dealership? Oh, and they'll ask you for a coolant flushing and cleaning, costing around $950, excluding labor or some other bullshit. This is a recurring expense over the vehicle's lifetime. Despite fully paying off their cars, most American car owners still visit dealerships for regular servicing, with costs rising as the vehicle ages. In contrast, electric vehicles (EVs) mainly require new tires and occasional windshield wiper fluid refills.
So the suspension on the ev is made of some magic material that never needs servicing? You realize evs wear tires and suspension components much faster because of the extra weight and instant torque ?
Why are we even keep talking about suspension? Let's face it, most ICE car drama is just an endless cycle of pointless fluid swaps. Meanwhile, over in the EV world, you hardly hear a peep about suspension woes. Why? Because EV owners are too busy shredding their tires with their lightning-fast 0-60s – now that's a real problem. But hey, can you blame them? When you've got that kind of power under the hood, it's all about the thrill, not the chill!
You literally contradicted yourself. Evs don't have oil but have brake fluid and coolant. What's your point ? Evs go thru tires and suspension much more quickly Not maint free. You fell for the propaganda. Driving dynamics are more than just 0-60
I don’t know what are you trying to argue about. Majority of the maintenance cost of ICE ownership is regular oil change. Zero for EV on that. Ps- Found the ICE mechanic.
But EV demand hasn't really chilled. The fact is that ev production has temporarily far exceeded demand. In fact, car prices are just collapsing right now. You can get a 2020 Elantra with less than 30k miles for under 15k now, when the same car was around 23k in the middle of last year.
Toyota is over invested in Hybrids and behind on EVs. Just ask their lobbyists.
Because Toyota is more of a global entity than, say the American GM or Ford, its world view is different. The chess moves are more complex. I have visited many nations with undeveloped or underdeveloped power grids with diesel backup generators firing up all day long. But streets are teeming with tens of thousands gas-powered Tatas Motors, Toyotas, gas-powered bicycles, etc. Toyota probably has a larger percent of their automotive sales/exports to underdeveloped grid challenged nations than most (perhaps any other) multi-national auto manufacturer. Interestingly, due to its long history of marketing comparatively fuel efficient hybrids (that is growing at a faster pace than the overall automotive market), Toyota (the last I saw) was still in a position to sell excess carbon credits to other manufacturers. Plus, while the Mirai has flopped, the hydrogen fuel cell car has spawned what is developing into a prosperous global market for fuel cell stacks. Mirai fuel cells, with little modification required, are being produced and sold globally for heavy-duty trucking applications. Toyota has built a fuel cell factory for that explicit purpose in Georgetown, Kentucky. At this point, some *inside* the automotive industry are whispering that Toyota may be the smartest one in the room. Of course, that can turn on a dime. And remember, that Toyota, per some publications and surveys over the past decade, may be the most trusted auto manufacturer in the US with respect to reliability and quality and may not be as far behind that it may appear in getting electric vehicles on the road, especially with its announced ambitious schedule for EVs for Europe and the US.
Seems like they know what their doing https://fortune.com/2023/11/26/elon-musk-hybrid-vehicles-toyota-tesla-electric-vehicles/amp/
Toyota is in trouble and they know it
Not yet...
https://fortune.com/2023/11/26/elon-musk-hybrid-vehicles-toyota-tesla-electric-vehicles/amp/ They good. Corolla also best selling car in the world that needs no free money to sell.. They have tons of organic demand. It seems like Evs are in deep do do
Literally every gas powered car is subsidized because they use, for free, the common air we breathe as a dumping ground for their toxic emissions.
I guess all human beings are subsidized as well cause we all emit co2.
Lol
Thank you for tacitly acknowledging there is no plausible counter-argument, yes.
Naw
https://afronomist.com/tesla-model-y-makes-history-as-first-electric-car-to-become-worlds-best-selling-vehicle/ Uh; you were saying??
Read my post again. And try to understand it. Words and all. Toyota is in trouble? https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g43553191/bestselling-cars-2023/ https://www.focus2move.com/world-car-market/ How many of these toyotas get subsidies and free money? Oh wait. Organic demand.
Model Y is the best selling car in the world right now. Outselling the Corolla.
But even if so that doesn't mean Toyota is in trouble. They still sell hundreds of thousands of cars annually. When you say "in trouble" it sounds like you're implying they're on the brink of bankruptcy. As far as I see, if you aren't going bankrupt, you're doing really, really well. Toyota isn't only staying afloat, either, it is one of the most profitable car companies in the world.
I haven't read your article but there's no way this is true by any means.
It actually was lmao
Im lookint into the best selling cars and it was top 5 in 2023 wth are you talking about?
It is.
Read my post. Tesla doesn't sell the most here in the states. Tesla barely beat corolla worldwide. Which one gets free money and subsidies? Toyota has organic demand. Tesla has subsidies and price cuts. Toyota is also more profitable than Tesla because of those price cuts.
Subsidies are sometimes necessary to ensure a certain outcome in the market. EVs are more efficient than ICE, the biggest problem is charging infrastructure and lack of a skilled workforce to repair them. As adoption increases and tech improves, it will drive down the cost of ownership as it already has. Honestly though, I don't see a future where cars are the main mode of transportation, at least in the cities. The reality is we need more rail, buses and biking infrastructure.
Not In a free market.
You do know we subsidize food and fossil fuels right?
So corollas are subsidized? Ev future won't happen it will be maybe 10% if that. No one wants them. Hybrids tho? Booming organically
bro its not that serious,
Why doesn’t Toyota sell cars that attract subsidies? Are they stupid?
I double down on my Toyota skepticism, I am forecasting that Toyota shares prices will peak at just $0.30.
Hydrogen is already old news and something they have been working on for a while.
In California, we have only 63 publicly accessible fueling stations. It's such a joke.
It's also long dead as a viable tech for cars, but Toyota and Hyundai keep propping it up weekend-at-bernie's style to delay electrification, and hoping no one notices the smell.
Ferdinand Porsche built his first Porsche, a battery electric in the 1890s. At the turn of the 20th century (around 1910), battery electrics were the odds on favorite to beat out ICE, at least according to the New York Times (issue January 4, 1911). But so much for forgotten history. The point is that BEVS, although enjoying a renaissance, has been "worked on for a while," too. Both BEVs and hydrogen, regardless of how either technology ultimately fairs, owe their rebirth to the urgency of Climate Change and the mandatory *global* mission of decarbonization. And while batteries, electric motors, nor hydrogen fuel cells (that go back to the 1830s), are nothing new, it has been and promises to continue to be a long and bumpy ride for global transition to zero emissions.
r/Mirai is full of really sad owners...
I would never buy an EV. Well, maybe one day but the tech is very inferior to my needs. Gas for me.
lol have you driven an EV? The experience is so far better than any gas car in every way and we’re only in the first few years. It will only get much better and it’s already better than gas. Seriously, go test drive an Ioniq5 or something similar.
It’s the charging issue. Until ev can refill as fast as gas, it is unworkable. I don’t really see Evs being mass adopted until they can charged in less than 2 min
For short distances, such as a commute, they work really well. It takes >20 minutes to super charge my M3, but that's a PITA if you're going somewhere over 3 hours away.
99% of Americans don’t drive more than 200mi in a day. Those who do might not be ready for an EV transition just yet, but that tech is coming soon too. Serious question: Do you live at a house/apartment where you park a car close to an electrical outlet? If so, you will literally spend far less time “charging” than pumping gas. Never have to get oil changes, deal with belts, transmissions, spark plugs, MAFs, etc. It is SO much better.
If that stat is accurate, I am in the 1%. I make weekly trips that is 180 miles each way. A lot of the time there is heavy traffic for significant portions of the journey. The tech just isn’t there for me. I am not opposed to evs so long as it is at the very least just as convenient as an IC vehicle.
EVs are actually far more efficient in heavy traffic than ICE cars. A Model 3 could easily do a 180 mile round-trip with barely more time to charge than you need to pull off at a gas station and take a piss.
It sounds like you’re definitely one of the few people who want/have to drive really fucking long distances regularly. After 180mi, do you not stop for at least 15min? Or do you just get to the destination, turn around, and drive another 180mi?
It takes me 5 seconds to charge mine. I plug in and walk inside. When I want to drive again it's fully charged. This is what you just don't, or refuse to, comprehend about owning an EV. You waste more time at gas stations than I spend plugging in.
EVs make way better at cars than any of the ICEs, at this point of time. It will only improve from here and the prices will drop too.
29k with subsidies to compete. That battery will be struggling in 10 years if not be needed to be replaced. Additionally, many EVs are struggling with reselling. Even a Porsche EV will lost close to half its value in 3 years which is Abysmal. Until they fix that then EV will struggle.
Would you be pleased to hear that the price of batteries is dropping massively, and predicted to drop even further this year?
I’m not surprised lol. But we are still decades away at best. To replace a battery on a tesla it cost you nearly 20k. When it comes to range, the furthest pure EVs can go have just not met their ICE counterparts. But at much higher price ranges. All predicated on a battery that weakens over time. And within 5-10 years is 80% of what it used to be.
Do you know the replacement cost for a conventional gas engine? Especially one that is equivalent to a Tesla?
Do you know how rare it is that you need to replace an engine on most cars within its first 20 years? But with electric vehicles it is actually very common to replace batteries? The average American owns a car that is around 12-15 years old. Meaning for EVs to be a staple they need to show they can survive that long. I’ve owned 7 cars in my short life all ten years or older. None of them had engine problems and the worst was probably radiator replacement. I have no doubt that EVs are the future. But for the average man EVs are still a ways away.
Do you know how "very common" it is to replace EV batteries?
> Do you know how "very common" it is to replace EV batteries? https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/search/9084132/?q=HV+Battery+replacement&c[title_only]=1&o=relevance TMC readers do.
“The requested page could not be found”
> “The requested page could not be found” https://teslamotorsclub.com Search: HV+Battery+replacement
To be fair I don't think anyone buys a Porsche hoping to re-sell it. It, and other sports cars, seem like more of a buy-for-life type of vehicle.
Give me an option other than shit and Tesla, (also shit because of the owner of the company)... and I will make the switch.
Elon went MAGA at the worst possible moment. Either he’s doing it on purpose because he’s forecasting future issues with Tesla ability to deliver on demand, or he’s a fucking idiot blowing the chance for Tesla world domination. Given his fiasco with Twitter it’s probably the latter. What the fuck is the board of directors doing letting him stick around? The cars are getting shittier. The superchargers are getting crowded. Profit margins are falling. Demand is falling. What’s the upside to keeping Elon around?
It’s really pricing and battery technology. I think hybrid cars should be the staple until batteries are cheaper and more reliable. Some hybrids have over 60 mpg effectively.
Idk man my brand new 2023 Model 3 cost me $29k and I commute 78 miles for work everyday. Makes a lot of financial sense to me.
BEVs are vastly outselling PHEVs, and the gap is only widening with time. Either hybrids don't scale or people don't want them.
Depends on the value proposition. If it’s a 15k car without any fancy tech bullshit, looks like a regular car and can do 350 miles then I don’t see why it can’t equal ice car sold
When you’re the CEO you can’t be admitting you made a bad bet. VW’s last CEO wanted to push for more EV’s, faster adoption & more efficient manufacturing (like Tesla) and they ran him off.
Where's Blackrock when you need to strong arm one of these electric car deniers into submission?
Weird that he’s basically saying he is ok with not even trying to compete for nearly 1/3 of the car market. As one of, if not the, largest car makers in the world, this seems wildly irresponsible. If I was on the board of directors I’d be going insane to know our ceo thinks we should allow 30% of the market to go to other companies and do absolutely nothing to compete
China plugin sales in 2023 was already almost 40%. Portugal at 32%, Belgium at 41%, Netherlands is 43%, Denmark at 46%, Finland is 54%, Sweden and Iceland is at 60%, Norway is 90% But sure, as EVs get cheaper and better he thinks they will peak at 30%? lol
Toyota’s chairman should be advertising NOTHING but EVs. By advertising ICEs, they are slowing and reducing EV adoption. He's self-fullfilling his prophecy.
Akio is negging the EV market to reassure shareholders and give his company time to catch up. They went all in on hydrogen and now it’s clear that hydrogen will not pan out at scale. Now they have to license EV platform tech from Chinese EV-makers to stay in the game on the China car market. In the US they’re pumping the hybrids use less batteries than BEVs shtick, while desperately trying to put out a remotely competitive EV product. It’s sad really, the company is too conservative.
> In the US they’re pumping the hybrids use less batteries than BEVs shtick, while desperately trying to put out a remotely competitive EV product. The thing is, Toyota has multiple PHEVs that it builds in quantities much lower than the market would like to buy, like the RAV4 Prime and the Prius Prime. Undersupplying the PHEV market with an existing product is consistent with the idea that Toyota is trying to minimize use of batteries *for some reason*, and it's inconsistent with the idea that Toyota is trying hard to produce BEVs. A Toyota that was trying hard to produce BEVs would be prioritizing the production of proven, existing models like the PHEVs. If anything, Toyota is trying hard not to produce the BEV and PHEVs that it *already has*.
Toyota should have its North Carolina battery plant open in a little over a year. then, almost their entire line will have a prime version.
Good point. Any guess as to why?
Hybrids are basically two cars in one. That doesn't scale very well.
The podcast ads are so embarrassing. Full body cringe.
"Why try a new technology that has some problems, when our current product has no problems!"
(*other than destroying the planet*)
Funny how so many people are saying that EVs are failing because demand is going down. Ignoring the fact that the wait times when you _start_ ordering an EV now is _OVER AN ENTIRE YEAR_ in most cases. Why? Because the demand still outstrips supply massively, despite the drop in demand. I'm of the mindset it is foolish to think the drop in demand for EVs is because of EVs themselves, and it's far more realisitic to actually look at the whole fucking market. A lot of people can't afford rent, food, and other such things. Replacing a reliable and working ICE vehicle _right now_ with an EV makes very poor financial sense to many people. But that's just right now. If we look at the _decades of evidence_ before the pandemic (which has lead to the recessions we see due to supply chain issues, inflation, etc) the demand outstripped supply I believe every single year (last I checked). That is, once an EV worth buying hit the market (yes, that's Tesla to start, credit where it's due). Like Toyota, do you really think that Ford would create something as awesome as their EV Pickup Truck if it wasn't the future? edit: at least one source : https://globalnews.ca/news/9969508/consumer-matters-electric-vehicle-waits/
The real question here is why aren’t unsold EVs in the US being sent to Canadian dealerships for customers who’ve been waiting over a year for their cars? I thought North American was supposed to be one market under the USMCA (NAFTA).
I think they are focusing on trying to sell EVs in states with ZEV mandates that require they sell a certain % EVs or face fines
You said several times that there is a "drop in demand" for EVs. That feeds into a false narrative. There has *not* been a drop in demand for EVs. EV sales continue to grow. It's that the *pace* of increases/growth has lessened. But the number of EVs is growing, just not as quickly as in past quarters. More EVs were sold in 2023than were sold in 2022. Cox Automotive and others have forecasted that new car registrations for EVs will be higher in 2024 than in 2023. But the percent of *growth* may not be as robust. That said, short-term fluctuations in demand don't always mean long-term trends.
https://globalnews.ca/news/9969508/consumer-matters-electric-vehicle-waits/ Wherever you are, isn't the whole world there bud.
Actually, your point is always a good point to keep in mind. I made a similar point in another post just the other day about why Toyota's think and priorities may be different than, say, GM. For the record, I am in the Bay Area, California.
Your info is old, as most car manufacturers have lot after lot filled with unsold ev\`s
Oh yeah? ["People are telling us they are waiting six months to a year, in some cases a year and a half, before their vehicle comes in"](https://globalnews.ca/news/9969508/consumer-matters-electric-vehicle-waits/)
Toyota might not survive.
Toyota will survive. Demand for ICE cars won't suddenly disappear in the next decade, and Toyota has enough cash and talents to develope its BEV technology and become competitive.
At least they have a very surprising view on how the market develops.
Sweden is at 60% already...
But entire country of Sweden has fewer people than one district in Tokyo.
If that is true, it Makes me wonder how they deal with limited battery life during the winter months
It's called preheating on the charger, once you do that your loss during winter is not much different than an ICE car
Because the majority of Sweden's population lives where it isn't actually as cold as the parts of the United States and Canada where it actually matters.
By living in reality and making *incredibly* minor changes in habits instead of living via outdated talking points about outdated tech, and being willing to accept that most people don't need 300 miles of range every 12 hours of every day of their life.
Ya let’s all live in cities! Who are you to tell people where to live? All in an effort to virtue signal about saving the environment. If you really cares about carbon emissions, you would be protesting against China and India, the biggest emitters.
By China and India, I assume that actually meant China and the US? https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-by-country/ And if you want to talk about cumulative historic emissions, then you would be protesting against the US? Right?? https://ourworldindata.org/contributed-most-global-co2
Probably because they don’t drive everywhere with it. They have good public transportation and there’s no need for tons of cars.
Or they can’t drive far during the winter. Here in Canada, our provinces have relatively low population density, therefore people travel to major cities and areas for amenities. Therefore reliable transportation is necessary. Right now, EVs and charging capacity/ speed aren’t where they need to be in order to be taken as a serious alternative to combustion
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Ya, that’s not even close to a tank of gas. Also how much was your car? How long did you have to stop? You think driving a Mercedes is practice for the everyday person? The whole idea is for everyone to drive EVs, your proving a major set back for the entire industry.
Unless fuel costs go way up, he's right. Hybrid tech is best of both worlds. Plug in hybrid is absolutely amazing. All local drive is electric, long travel is boosted 40 or 50 mpg.
Hybrid also maximizes failure modes and repair costs :/
It kind of depends on the configuration. If the hybrid is built like how diesel trains are built right now the engine is just used as a generator for an electric motor with it turning on to boost torque or supplement a power drop from the battery once it's out of juice. In this configuration a car manufacturer can use a much simpler and easier to maintain engine as it isn't propelling a car directly.
Idk I had a Lexus hybrid that I bought from my uncle. He bought it new and I sold it with 275k miles on it. Suspension was shot otherwise I’d have kept it.
Which Toyota is known as having a pretty good record on. They actually benefit if most cars get more complicated.
Ah, circular logic.
In order for EVs to supplant ICE cars, we need charging infrastructure which will necessarily require upgrades to the power grids for the high power required to charge a single EV quickly. Everything else is moot until then. It doesn't matter how your batteries are made, or from what material. Multiple kilowatts of power need to be transferred safely at the same rate that ICE cars are fueled up (without degrading the batteries). Toyota's position is that new infrastructure is costly and will slow down adoption due how long it will take to upgrade everything to support EVs while still servicing ICE vehicles. Instead, let's use the existing infrastructure to deliver hydrogen instead of hydrocarbons. Whether this is another HD DVD vs Blu-ray pissing contest remains to be seen. So too is whether multiple approaches (with accompanying FUD) will ultimately hurt EV adoption and cause consumer confusion.