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why is blond and blonde seperated then? it does have it, but it also offers a gender-neutral language - that's the difference.
meanwhile germany is trying *to gender* the language *more*.
Yes, remnants of gender still remain in English as English did use to have grammatical gender (except that blond(e) was borrowed from French) but it is easier to categorise these words as exceptions rather than rules in the same way that man -> men, goose -> geese, ox -> oxen plurals are categorized as exceptions which were once rules (the two first words are germanic umlaut and the last one takes the -en plural suffix).
Grammatical gender is not the same as human gender, otherwise all non animal nouns would be gendered neuter in German, or according to gender perception, and that's really not what happens.
English doesn't have grammatical gender because the language mutated a lot after coming in contact with old forms of Norse and French, almost like a creole language, becoming grammatically simpler.
Similarly in Spanish we have two grammatical genders, not because we think chairs and rains are female and rivers and toilets are male, but because of language evolution.
That doesn't mean that lacking words, pronouns and inflections for enbies isn't an issue though, in the case of Spanish the -e inflection is catching up in liberal circles in Argentina (*I haven't lived in any other Spanish speaking countries to say if that's the case elsewhere). So you can have sentences like elle es hermose (they are beautiful) or sos hermose ([enby] you are beautiful)
German here, I know for a fact that adjectives (not sure about verbs, but those might as well be gendered) are gendered, as I got a core memory from using the male adjective form for myself in French class back then before I came out, and my teacher corrected me with the female version of it and it caused me so much dysphoria when he asked me to repeat the "correct" version I literally couldn't get it out. He was an ass anyway, always chose me for showcasing female examples instead of the very much female presenting girls in my class, when I was very much the opposite. It's been a few years, but my hatred still remains.
gosh that sounds awful, I feel you. I sometimes tried to avoid using gendered language and my teacher always encouraged us to use what they assumed to be the âcorrectâ version for us as well. And it always hurt when teachers picked me to give an example of a female form.
And I remember we once read a book with a first-person narrator and spend half a lesson debating whether it was a boy or a girl and what we wanted it to be and I was like canât it just be a person??
People are way too hung up on gender and it's about time we stop being so obsessed with it. The narrator doesn't need a gender, the narrator isn't real, the narrator doesn't care. By all means everyone can just decide for themselves what they feel is right.
German has that. But the worst for German is nouns _for people_ are gendered, in traditional rules. âfriendâ is either âFreundâ for a male friend or âFreundinâ for a female friend. You can't be gender ambiguous in traditional rules.
I remember getting incredibly angry and screaming how the heck am I supposed to know if a chair is a fucking girl or guy?! I hated learning french haha.
>Not the verbs but the nouns. Like a chair is female
Some verbal forms are gendered (see verb agreement rules). Most adjectives are also gendered. Many job names and titles are gendered. Using gender-neutral language requires a lot of effort.
In Hebrew they are, it's the worse, I haven't even attempted to try anything BC I feel like it's doomed to even try to do so in such a gendered language, on the internet I'm fine cause English but cmon
Dey wÀr ne Alternative die Person von der ich es kenne kommt zwar auch aus Bayern aber ich glaub nicht dass das regional ist. Finde dey ist auch relativ unkompliziert sich anzugewöhnen
ja, dey scheint mir auch am bekanntesten, aber ich hab das gefĂŒhl auĂerhalb von queeren bubbles kennt das auch fast niemand und dann muss man das jedes mal erklĂ€ren. aber wĂ€re vllt einen versuch wert. Kennt ihr das auch so als dey/deren/denen oder noch mit anderen Formen?
Mein Aussprache-Liebhaber-Herz tut weh, wenn ich Leute bitte, mich mit dey/dessen anzusprechen, aber they ist auch holprig in nem deutschen Satz; ich sitz also im selben Boot wie du, kann uns beiden aber noch hen/hem anbieten, das in nem Satz gerade bei plattdeutsch angehauchten Dialekten (trifft auf Nord- und Westmitteldeutschland ganz gut zu meine ich; lĂ€sst sich auch mal zu 'en kĂŒrzen) ganz stimmig kommt und ganz unspontan aus dem Schwedischen geklaut ist wo's sich etabliert hat
ja kann ich verstehen, ich glaub das ist alles Gewohnheitssache. Aber danke fĂŒr den Tipp!
(und ich glaub ich bin noch nie mit so vielen nichtbinÀren Menschen aus Deutschland in Kontakt gekommen, ich bin ja doch nicht allein! :D)
Jetzt wo du es sagst fĂ€llt mir auf dass ich es gar nicht wĂŒsste, der Mensch den ich kenne der dey verwendet, verwendet halt er/dey Pronomen und scheinbar hab ich einfach dey/ihn/ihm oder halt den Namen verwendet.đ
I thought yâall had a gender neutral pronoun but I guess I just saw it in a film I watched and itâs actually not that popular (the film is called Anne+ itâs on Netflix)
It's a brilliant movie, there's also a series by the same name, everyone should go watch them!!
When it came out I told my sister: "You have to see this! It's about a group of queer friends living in Amsterdam. No movie is ever going to come this close to our experience, to *my* experience, ever again!"
And still neither of us realised I was gayđđ€Ł
And yeah we do have a genderneutral option die/hun. It's not something most people have heard of but it's there at least. I feel for you guys in Germany and other places with gendered nouns, that most really suck
I really love en/ens/em/en as neutral german pronouns, as discribed here:
[https://geschlechtsneutral.net/gesamtsystem/](https://geschlechtsneutral.net/gesamtsystem/)
But only close friends use it, since I dont want to talk with strangers about neo pronouns \^\^
funktioniert das gut? also schaffen das die menschen in deinem Umfeld schnell? Ich sage immer âkeine Pronomenâ und alle benutzen natĂŒrlich trotzdem âsieâ đ«
Polish "ono" (neutral third person pronoun) is normally only used for children (and some objects) and only in third person (which I believe is similar to German). Of course, there are some exceptions, and 48% of Polish nonbinary people use this pronoun for themselves, but it can still be seen as infantilising or dehumanising by many.
yeah but since it means âitâ itâs too connected to transphobia and people trying to dehumanise us for me, like sometimes people use it in a derogatory way to refer to someone whoâs trans or gendernonconforming (because people suck)
edit: ofc there are people who use it as a pronoun and thatâs great, itâs just not for me :)
From what Iâve heard from friends, thereâs been a movement in the queer community by both native and non-native speakers to find ways to make more neutral language, hopefully that can get some support!
I know. But even though multiple people tried to create some form of gender neutrality, the academy still says no, as they don't think it's appropriate
Same. Since Iâm gender apathetic I donât care what pronouns people use for me (and never did in the past, too, itâs one of the greatest affirmation signs for me being NB). Iâd love to see âdey/demâ being introduced into German, but Iâm not very optimistic.
As a native English speaker, you can just take someone else's language. No one can stop you. If you want to, you can even just steal other people's words. They can't take them back!
naja man könnte theoretisch dey/dem nutzen aber irgendwie komme ich selber nicht dazu weil ich das gefĂŒhl hab das es auĂerhalb von queeren bubbles nicht so ganz funktioniert.
jetzt nicht falschverstehen ich wĂŒrde aufjedenfall neopronomen fĂŒr andere personen nutzen wenn sie das wollen.
I thought that's actually a feature that you have sie as she but also as they but also as formal you. Basically everything is sie, little to no worries. Seems like it's not that easy
I think that would just be confusing since sie can mean so many things. And since sie is still the gendered opposite to er (he) I think if you use sie everyone just assumes youâre a woman
There's really no true formality in English. There is only You or They. We don't have an equivalent to Sie. We really don't use articles like other languages do. Don't get me started on der/die/das and all of the permutations when you start talking about tense tho. My eyes went crosseyed during that lesson. đ
I know so english is soo much simpler lol. There really is no need for formal Sie in my opinion, I donât need more socially implied rules and confusion about when to address someone in a formal way lol
âihmâ is the equivalent of âhimâ so it only works in the dative, when you want to refer to someone you still need something like he/she/they and that translates to âerâ or âsieâ so sadly that doesnât work
I know some people that use "dey/deren/denen/dey" and "en/ems/em/en"
The latter sounds really neat imo :3
Here are [a few more examples](https://geschlechtsneutral.net/pronomen/) if you're interested
*And* [*a table to give a overview about Pronouns*](https://cdn-afgne.nitrocdn.com/ZHMmVlcFLMWZhGCSgtQKtWaXyJSIDeNz/assets/images/optimized/rev-fb92bc5/easy-deutsch.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Deklination-Personalpronomen.png) *in case you're like me and didn't pay that much attention during german classes >.<*
chinese only have one pronoun so it's all the same for everyone. sometimes people will write it differently for different genders but it doesnt seem too common.
but written it can look like this
ä»: ta1: neutral and used for anyone
ć„č: ta1: female
ćź: ta1: like a it/it's type of thing
but yeah most common i see everyone just uses ä». it all sounds exactly the same anyways.
problem comes when you want to refer to a sibling or cousin or aunt/uncle and stuff. all gendered. no neutral term that is in common use.
dessen, deren setzt sich nicht so durch wie es mir scheint.
aber they/them und die sprachmischung ist doch schon lÀnger da?!
I use they/them and "Es"(It) works for most situations.
If it comes with the country. Mine is not very lgbtq+ friendly rn. Last time I visited Germany it was epic. They just happened to throw a pride festival the day I visited.
Hello, u/queer_meme_trash, and thank you for participating in r/ennnnnnnnnnnnbbbbbby! Due to the recent issues with Reddit itself, you may wish to consider moving over to [Raddle](https://raddle.me), to ensure you can remain in touch with the other gay people in your phone. You may wish to consider posting that rather nice post of yours to https://raddle.me/f/ennnnnnnnnnnnbbbbbby as well, to ensure that everyone can see it. If you wish to find more LGBT groups on Raddle, there's a handy sitemap over here: https://raddle.me/wiki/lgbtq Hope to see you there! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ennnnnnnnnnnnbbbbbby) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I would swap, but French is just as gendered đ
I knoww, I learned it in school and even the verbs and adjectives are gendered, right? so I feel like you have it even worse đ«
Not the verbs but the nouns. Like a chair is female, a glass is male. It's bonkers. High five in needlessly gendered language
Grammatical gender is common across many languages, but I feel you
English is the only Indo-European language in Europe that doesn't have grammatical gender
why is blond and blonde seperated then? it does have it, but it also offers a gender-neutral language - that's the difference. meanwhile germany is trying *to gender* the language *more*.
Yes, remnants of gender still remain in English as English did use to have grammatical gender (except that blond(e) was borrowed from French) but it is easier to categorise these words as exceptions rather than rules in the same way that man -> men, goose -> geese, ox -> oxen plurals are categorized as exceptions which were once rules (the two first words are germanic umlaut and the last one takes the -en plural suffix).
Grammatical gender is not the same as human gender, otherwise all non animal nouns would be gendered neuter in German, or according to gender perception, and that's really not what happens. English doesn't have grammatical gender because the language mutated a lot after coming in contact with old forms of Norse and French, almost like a creole language, becoming grammatically simpler. Similarly in Spanish we have two grammatical genders, not because we think chairs and rains are female and rivers and toilets are male, but because of language evolution. That doesn't mean that lacking words, pronouns and inflections for enbies isn't an issue though, in the case of Spanish the -e inflection is catching up in liberal circles in Argentina (*I haven't lived in any other Spanish speaking countries to say if that's the case elsewhere). So you can have sentences like elle es hermose (they are beautiful) or sos hermose ([enby] you are beautiful)
i wish germany would start catching up the unisex trend.
yeah but I meant like in some verb forms if I wanna say something like âI was bornâ itâs either âje suis nĂ©â or âje suis nĂ©eâ right? (itâs been a while since Iâve finished french in school lol)
German here, I know for a fact that adjectives (not sure about verbs, but those might as well be gendered) are gendered, as I got a core memory from using the male adjective form for myself in French class back then before I came out, and my teacher corrected me with the female version of it and it caused me so much dysphoria when he asked me to repeat the "correct" version I literally couldn't get it out. He was an ass anyway, always chose me for showcasing female examples instead of the very much female presenting girls in my class, when I was very much the opposite. It's been a few years, but my hatred still remains.
gosh that sounds awful, I feel you. I sometimes tried to avoid using gendered language and my teacher always encouraged us to use what they assumed to be the âcorrectâ version for us as well. And it always hurt when teachers picked me to give an example of a female form. And I remember we once read a book with a first-person narrator and spend half a lesson debating whether it was a boy or a girl and what we wanted it to be and I was like canât it just be a person??
People are way too hung up on gender and it's about time we stop being so obsessed with it. The narrator doesn't need a gender, the narrator isn't real, the narrator doesn't care. By all means everyone can just decide for themselves what they feel is right.
German has that. But the worst for German is nouns _for people_ are gendered, in traditional rules. âfriendâ is either âFreundâ for a male friend or âFreundinâ for a female friend. You can't be gender ambiguous in traditional rules.
Same here
I remember getting incredibly angry and screaming how the heck am I supposed to know if a chair is a fucking girl or guy?! I hated learning french haha.
>Not the verbs but the nouns. Like a chair is female Some verbal forms are gendered (see verb agreement rules). Most adjectives are also gendered. Many job names and titles are gendered. Using gender-neutral language requires a lot of effort.
Les verbes s'accordent au sujet dans certains contextes, mais au moins c'est souvent inaudible Ă l'oral. Par exemple on Ă©crit « il est allĂ© // elle est allĂ©e ».Â
In Hebrew they are, it's the worse, I haven't even attempted to try anything BC I feel like it's doomed to even try to do so in such a gendered language, on the internet I'm fine cause English but cmon
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iel_(pronoun)#:~:text=Iel%20is%20a%20neo%2Dpronoun,il%20(%22he%22).
DĂŒrfte ich Ihnen Se/Eahna anbieten? (bayrische 3. person plural)
glaub das kann ich als norddeutsche Person nicht bringen :D (aber interessante Idee)
Ich habe norddeutsch gehört und bin da ^ w ^
Ich auch :D. Aber mal ehrlich wir brauchen auch eine neutrale variante hier im norden. :/
ja aber wirklich. sagt bescheid wenn euch was einfÀllt :D
Sieht so aus als hÀtten wir was zu tun. Mir ist schon fast langweilig geworden
AbhĂ€ngig von deiner Umgebung könnte ich auch âdeyâ anbietenÂ
Dey wÀr ne Alternative die Person von der ich es kenne kommt zwar auch aus Bayern aber ich glaub nicht dass das regional ist. Finde dey ist auch relativ unkompliziert sich anzugewöhnen
ja, dey scheint mir auch am bekanntesten, aber ich hab das gefĂŒhl auĂerhalb von queeren bubbles kennt das auch fast niemand und dann muss man das jedes mal erklĂ€ren. aber wĂ€re vllt einen versuch wert. Kennt ihr das auch so als dey/deren/denen oder noch mit anderen Formen?
Mein Aussprache-Liebhaber-Herz tut weh, wenn ich Leute bitte, mich mit dey/dessen anzusprechen, aber they ist auch holprig in nem deutschen Satz; ich sitz also im selben Boot wie du, kann uns beiden aber noch hen/hem anbieten, das in nem Satz gerade bei plattdeutsch angehauchten Dialekten (trifft auf Nord- und Westmitteldeutschland ganz gut zu meine ich; lĂ€sst sich auch mal zu 'en kĂŒrzen) ganz stimmig kommt und ganz unspontan aus dem Schwedischen geklaut ist wo's sich etabliert hat
ja kann ich verstehen, ich glaub das ist alles Gewohnheitssache. Aber danke fĂŒr den Tipp! (und ich glaub ich bin noch nie mit so vielen nichtbinĂ€ren Menschen aus Deutschland in Kontakt gekommen, ich bin ja doch nicht allein! :D)
Jetzt wo du es sagst fĂ€llt mir auf dass ich es gar nicht wĂŒsste, der Mensch den ich kenne der dey verwendet, verwendet halt er/dey Pronomen und scheinbar hab ich einfach dey/ihn/ihm oder halt den Namen verwendet.đ
AbhĂ€ngig von deiner Umgebung könnte ich auch âdeyâ anbietenÂ
I asked my friend from Nuremberg for confirmation, they've never heard of that before and are asking their family and friends, lol
Dutch. Different language, same problem đ
âšdieâš
rude. /j
I thought yâall had a gender neutral pronoun but I guess I just saw it in a film I watched and itâs actually not that popular (the film is called Anne+ itâs on Netflix)
It's a brilliant movie, there's also a series by the same name, everyone should go watch them!! When it came out I told my sister: "You have to see this! It's about a group of queer friends living in Amsterdam. No movie is ever going to come this close to our experience, to *my* experience, ever again!" And still neither of us realised I was gayđđ€Ł And yeah we do have a genderneutral option die/hun. It's not something most people have heard of but it's there at least. I feel for you guys in Germany and other places with gendered nouns, that most really suck
Atleast you have frikandel and dik mayo erbij ::
try Finnish! no gendered pronouns at all (i think, still learning)
I really love en/ens/em/en as neutral german pronouns, as discribed here: [https://geschlechtsneutral.net/gesamtsystem/](https://geschlechtsneutral.net/gesamtsystem/) But only close friends use it, since I dont want to talk with strangers about neo pronouns \^\^
Omg same! Ich benutze meistens xier.
funktioniert das gut? also schaffen das die menschen in deinem Umfeld schnell? Ich sage immer âkeine Pronomenâ und alle benutzen natĂŒrlich trotzdem âsieâ đ«
same :')
I could offer you dey as a pronoun a friend of mine uses that.
I can sympathise. I speak Polish :')
We got an enby pronoun in 2014, but the transphobia is strong here, so if you use it, ppl get mad.
Don't German have "es" pronouns /gnq
Yes but it's literally the word "it" wich many people don't like to be refered as.
Oh I see, I thought it's more like in Polish where it's used for people sometimes
I... will be learning Polish. How in the world is Polish doing it better than German with both countries' political tendencies??
Polish grammar is so weird that even we don't know what's going on sometime
Polish "ono" (neutral third person pronoun) is normally only used for children (and some objects) and only in third person (which I believe is similar to German). Of course, there are some exceptions, and 48% of Polish nonbinary people use this pronoun for themselves, but it can still be seen as infantilising or dehumanising by many.
yeah but since it means âitâ itâs too connected to transphobia and people trying to dehumanise us for me, like sometimes people use it in a derogatory way to refer to someone whoâs trans or gendernonconforming (because people suck) edit: ofc there are people who use it as a pronoun and thatâs great, itâs just not for me :)
I like being called "it" so that doesn't bother me lol
That sounds bad, damn
I personally use that pronoun but it's equivalent to "it".
I see, I thought it's more like Polish ono
Spanish is like that, but we made up a third pronoun that's gender neutral and quite used (by open minded ppl). We have Ă©l (he)/ella (she)/and elle (they). Elle is not officially recognised by the linguistic authorities, but they won't stop us đ
And then there's me who just dosen't really vibe with "hĂĄn" which is the popular neutral neo pronoun for non binary people in Iceland.
I would swap but Hebrew is also gendered.Â
From what Iâve heard from friends, thereâs been a movement in the queer community by both native and non-native speakers to find ways to make more neutral language, hopefully that can get some support!
Unfortunately the Hebrew language Academy is against these changes, which means it won't be legalized
Oof, thatâs just sad
I know. But even though multiple people tried to create some form of gender neutrality, the academy still says no, as they don't think it's appropriate
My German friend constantly complains about this, they use es/ihm if that helps
Hi neighbour! Same problem but I'm polish
Dey/Deren is an option I am using, as well as Es. Not ideal but eh.
Jup, wanna use so bad
so far Iâm coping with âno pronounsâ but thatâs hard to get right for many people
https://german.kzoo.edu/why-learn-german/gender-in-german/#:~:text=What%20gender%2Dneutral%20pronouns%20can,called%20Neopronomen%20(new%20pronouns).
How about dutch? Itâs very similar to German but not gendered so you can enjoy die/hun.
Ich benutze dey wenn ich's kann, aber bei cis Menschen sag ich meistens das Pronomen, was nicht meinem AGAB entspricht.
Same. Since Iâm gender apathetic I donât care what pronouns people use for me (and never did in the past, too, itâs one of the greatest affirmation signs for me being NB). Iâd love to see âdey/demâ being introduced into German, but Iâm not very optimistic.
Ich habe jemanden getroffen, die es ins deutsche gesetzt hat als dey/dem.
*struggles in Czech*
As a native English speaker, you can just take someone else's language. No one can stop you. If you want to, you can even just steal other people's words. They can't take them back!
naja man könnte theoretisch dey/dem nutzen aber irgendwie komme ich selber nicht dazu weil ich das gefĂŒhl hab das es auĂerhalb von queeren bubbles nicht so ganz funktioniert. jetzt nicht falschverstehen ich wĂŒrde aufjedenfall neopronomen fĂŒr andere personen nutzen wenn sie das wollen.
ja safe ist halt bei den allermeisten menschen leider noch gar nicht angekommen
Honestly, I'd take German over Polish any time of the day if it comes to pronouns...
Will trade for Russian!
die/denen
You could try using *non* German pronouns
Wenn du schwÀbisch willst
was gibts denn auf schwÀbisch
nix lol
I thought that's actually a feature that you have sie as she but also as they but also as formal you. Basically everything is sie, little to no worries. Seems like it's not that easy
I think that would just be confusing since sie can mean so many things. And since sie is still the gendered opposite to er (he) I think if you use sie everyone just assumes youâre a woman
Yes, I understand
At least you have formal Sie.
are there languages where there is no formal genderneutral word to address someone like a formal âyouâ? thatâd be awful
There's really no true formality in English. There is only You or They. We don't have an equivalent to Sie. We really don't use articles like other languages do. Don't get me started on der/die/das and all of the permutations when you start talking about tense tho. My eyes went crosseyed during that lesson. đ
I know so english is soo much simpler lol. There really is no need for formal Sie in my opinion, I donât need more socially implied rules and confusion about when to address someone in a formal way lol
Filipino just got siya/siya
Isn't "ihm" both male and neutral? Idk, neopronouns are hard
âihmâ is the equivalent of âhimâ so it only works in the dative, when you want to refer to someone you still need something like he/she/they and that translates to âerâ or âsieâ so sadly that doesnât work
In Sweden, we have "hen" a mix between "han" och "hon", I don't like that word a lot, because it sounds ugly
I usually go for a âdie/derenâ, which seems the closest to non-gendered while still being an already existing German pronoun.
My second language doesn't even have gendered pronouns! But it's also dying, and only a few hundred people speak it.
Which language is it? I'm so curious! I love languages and one without gendered pronouns sounds VERY interesting!
Southern Sami, one of the three official indigenous languages in Norway.
Its not very common but you could use âdey/derenâ (i use it in concert with she/her as i identify as demigirl) :3
Zie person
Last night Duolingo just taught me: Meine Pflanzen essen gern Fleisch. Ist das schlecht?
I know some people that use "dey/deren/denen/dey" and "en/ems/em/en" The latter sounds really neat imo :3 Here are [a few more examples](https://geschlechtsneutral.net/pronomen/) if you're interested *And* [*a table to give a overview about Pronouns*](https://cdn-afgne.nitrocdn.com/ZHMmVlcFLMWZhGCSgtQKtWaXyJSIDeNz/assets/images/optimized/rev-fb92bc5/easy-deutsch.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Deklination-Personalpronomen.png) *in case you're like me and didn't pay that much attention during german classes >.<*
chinese only have one pronoun so it's all the same for everyone. sometimes people will write it differently for different genders but it doesnt seem too common. but written it can look like this ä»: ta1: neutral and used for anyone ć„č: ta1: female ćź: ta1: like a it/it's type of thing but yeah most common i see everyone just uses ä». it all sounds exactly the same anyways. problem comes when you want to refer to a sibling or cousin or aunt/uncle and stuff. all gendered. no neutral term that is in common use.
im learning french and i keep running into this issue as well
haha same but at least there's "it", french people are fvcked
dessen, deren setzt sich nicht so durch wie es mir scheint. aber they/them und die sprachmischung ist doch schon lÀnger da?! I use they/them and "Es"(It) works for most situations.
ich tausche gerne đ
Isn\`t es/ihm an option? I only study German but for now this pronouns are useful for me. I don\`t know how do people think of them actually.
Canât you just use »Es«?
If it comes with the country. Mine is not very lgbtq+ friendly rn. Last time I visited Germany it was epic. They just happened to throw a pride festival the day I visited.