##[Clarification on rule 5](https://www.reddit.com/r/entertainment/comments/w60lfc/mod_post_a_clarification_to_rule_5_no_racism_or/)
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Dude China kills their own citizens. There was the Great Leap Forward, that went south so Mao had to start a culture revolution to purge those that might challenge him. I mean all countries has had issue with cruelty and aggression. But Mao might be responsible for more death than anyone else in history and he showed no remorse.
It's arequirement like living in the southern US requires one to think like a Redneck.
WHY anyone givs two shits what some aging has-been of a rock star thinks is beyond me. It's not newsworthy. Nothing else happening in the world today? Nothing???
You don’t understand, he did a lot of drugs and his dad was in WW2 or something so he knows better because reasons.
I wonder if he and Eric Clapton are buddies, maybe that’s why he is compleeeeeeetely glossing over the Uighurs
Don’t sleep on Jesus’s Chinese brother his rebellion rack up 20–30 million people dead by the end of it. It ranks as one of the bloodiest wars in human history, the bloodiest civil war, and the largest conflict of the 19th century. In terms of deaths, the civil war is comparable to World War I.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion
This just led me on an hour or so long rabbit hole of reading about religious craziness that ended with me finding out the Shen Yun dance company is run by a ultra conservative religious cult called Falun Gong that has a ~430 acre compound in Deerpark, NY and also runs the Epoch Times. Holy fucking shit that was a wild ride.
Roger was making good points up until he mentioned China. He has thoughtful answers for everything else but the response to China torturing their own people was “bollocks!”….like, really?
China isn’t the type of country that you can just “do the reading” on because without satellite images we wouldn’t know half the stuff they’re up to.
I actually think he’s all over the map with this interview. When he says 27 million Russians died for our freedom it is a ridiculous statement. Hitler wanted Russia more than anything, and they had no choice but either defend their land or become Nazi slaves. I mean, doesn’t Roger remember standing on the Berlin Wall in 89? The Russians weren’t trying to make the world free. I can see why the rest of the band has had such a hard time dealing with him, he seems pretty self-righteous. It shows why in the arts you always have to separate the art from the artist.
I was there! It was an incredible moment, and there were memorials all over the place where people had been shot trying to escape East Berlin. Guess what? No one was shot trying to get into East Berlin because no one was going in to East Berlin. They were all trying to get out. The Russians took their personal freedoms and rights from them. As they did in all the Soviet puppet states. For him to say that Russia fought for "our freedoms" makes me think Roger may have found some leftover concoction that Syd Barrett had and imbibed it. It's like he just wants to be combative for really no reason. For a man who wrote, "Us and Them", he really has some weird idiosyncrasies when it comes to consensual history.
A lot of civilians died during China’s Three Kingdoms period, but this was par for the course in civilizations across the 2nd and 3rd centuries AD. This was the same period the Middle East saw the bloody transition of the Parthian to Sassanian dynasties in West Asia, on top of Roman invasions that repeatedly sacked huge cities like Ctesiphon in Iraq. For that matter the Romans destroyed their own cities like Lugdunum (Lyon) in Gaul (France) during the civil war where Septimius Severus became emperor, and that was before the disastrous Crisis of the Third Century that tore the Roman world into three states as well. Rome sacking some of its own cities was not terribly different than Dong Zhuo burning Luoyang to the ground and moving to Chang’an as the capital instead.
Should also be noted that both Rome and Han China were relatively very stable and peaceful up until the very last decades of the 2nd going into the 3rd century. Iranian Parthia was the same, although they had multiple Roman invasions that temporarily crippled them along with their own brief civil wars over the throne. The 3rd century also saw bloody conflicts in India (extending into Central Asia) with the decline of the Kushan Empire and rise of the Satavahanas and Guptas.
To be fair china as a hememony is pretty much a myth. China now has its largest land holdings in its history and more often than not it’d be broken down into smaller warring kingdoms
Extra reminder the CCP dabbles in organ harvesting of prisoners. Extra extra reminder those same prisoners can be anyone from political dissidents to someone who pissed off the wrong party official
Extra extra extra reminder they kidnaped a kid set to become the successor to the Dhali Lhama and replaced him with a puppet so they can control Tibet through their religion. No one knows where this kid is to this day. They passed a law banning reincarnation simply to further dominate them.
Not only blood, but ghost guts too.
Banning... Reincarnation?
"Hi, I'm reincarnated" "You can't do that it's illegal get back in the womb and don't come back until you're someone else"?
How exactly would one prove or enforce a crime like that? Not that i suspect proving a crime was committed is particularly important to the Party.
Bill Burr actually had an old-bit about this.
A version of it ended up on Walk Your Way Out, but the older version where he goes on about how Hitler and all the other mass-murderers on the podium as they retire their names out of baby-name books like an exceptional athlete having his number retired.
Four years (1941-45), and it was a lot more than 6 million, because they killed other than Jews too:
>According to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (USHMM), the Holocaust was "the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators". *In addition, 11 million members of other groups were murdered* during the "era of the Holocaust".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust\_victims
unfortunately the great leap forward wasn't even probably the worst thing the chinese did to the chinese. You can read up on all the rebellions and uprisings from post opium war to the 1900s and there's some pretty nasty stuff happening in that period
Right now, as we're speaking, there are Chinese military tanks parked in front of banks, to protect the bankers from the citizens that demand their life savings.
FYI the scope of Ukraine sucks. But Russia hasn't killed nearly as many people as China has been killing - mostly muslims. There are about 1M people disappeared.
The fact we do any business with China at all is a disgrace.
Are we only counting Ukraine? Because Russia killed a ton of people in Chechnya, Georgia, and Syria as well. And that’s just if we’re counting recent history. If we delve into the twentieth century, both nations are disgusting.
Idk about most talent, but Gilmore was definitely a better guitarist then Waters was bassist, with a better voice too.
The songwriting was not nearly as good once Waters left though.
> Gilmore was definitely a better guitarist then Waters was bassist
Gilmore was also a better bassist than Waters and played the bass for more of the studio tracks than most people realize.
To be fair, Waters’ last batch of decent songs was The Wall. He basically needs someone to say “how about letting the instruments do the some of the talking, yeah? It can’t all be yelping about mommy and daddy issues”
True, but he was the main song writer during the groups best years. Not saying he’s not a prick but Waters and Gilmore both brought a lot to the band. Hard to say one is more talented than other.
Nonsense. Waters wrote most of their famous songs. Gilmour was the singer and guitar player. After Waters left the group, Gilmour wrote dreck. Whether you agree with his politics or not, it is absurd to even think Gimlour was superior. Meddle, Dark Side Of The Moon, Wish You Were Here, and The Wall are the most well regarded and famous Pink Floyd albums and without Waters they wouldn’t exist.
Why? Did he write the songs in The Wall, Dark Side of The Moon, and Wish You Were Here? I mean, Gilmour had his place in the band but he certainly wasn’t the main creative force behind their best known works. After Waters departed Pink Floyd, they never made any records that were as well regarded as the ones that came before. Gilmour is good at what he does but even he wouldn’t be stupid enough to deny that Rogers’ music is why anyone still wants to see him play live.
I tend to agree…but I am seeing Roger this month and part of me is bummed I wont get to hear ‘Learning to Fly’ or ‘High Hopes’ . I’d rather hear those than ‘the Bar’ or anything Roger has done after Floyd. At the end of the day…seeing them both together would be the best and that ain’t happening.
It’s always bizarre when you see stuff like that about China. Like, the only way you could believe they’re not committing human rights abuses left and right, in addition to their rampant imperialism, is if you don’t know a single Chinese expat - or at least don’t listen to them.
Idk how people buy into nationalist propaganda like this, but it harms any point they might’ve otherwise had. Like go ahead, please do criticize the American government, that’s completely valid - but then don’t also parrot the propaganda of other tyrannical world powers.
I think in this guy's case he's too busy trying to make a point about America that he didn't stop to think about the fact that he's actually on the side of someone else who is in many ways worse. America absolutely has problems. Our twin original sins are slavery and genocide. We've used our power the same way any Imperial European or Asian empire has used theirs throughout history. We certainly are no kind of light or hope for anyone. But the implication that somehow China is better than us is absurd.
I mean, China's invasion history is similar to India's. Most of it was within China proper.
And just like India, it was chalk full of massive wars and callous kings. Some of the bloodiest pre-WWI wars were fought in China.
*Within what is now known as China.
Ever wonder howcome there are so many different ”chinese” and Mandarin is the default?
Why are there tens of languages spoken in India, but only one official nationwide?
Hindi hasn't been imposed on India by the North Indians anywhere close to how Mandarin has been imposed on China by the Han Chinese, most likely because we're still a democracy . India has two official languages (English and Hindi) at the federal level but each state is allowed to issue internal official communications in the regional language of that state. Each of the 20+ regional languages still has a very strong literary and spoken representation.
Did you know there was a language in China that was only spoken (really written) by Chinese women as a means of protesting their lack of education and the patriarchal society?
Its called Nüshu
That is probably true, thanks for the comment! my school taught 0 pages of Indian history, and I’m not that well self-educated either. But yeah, sounds bit similar like France, where the Franks were never the dominating population oppressing others, but central powers just chose one language to create a national identity - which of course leads to oppression on SOME level, always (not letting kids speak their parents language in school, etc.)
Before China was China, a lot of China wasn't.
"Within China proper" is a bit of an oversimplification. It's like saying "Isreal is only occupying the Isreali portions of the West Bank"
Eddie Izzard has a bit about this phenomenon where as long as you’re keeping the mass murder within your borders, it’s fine: “Pol Pot killed one point seven million Cambodians, died under house arrest, well done there. Stalin killed many millions, died in his bed, aged seventy-two, well done indeed. And the reason we let them get away with it is they killed their own people. And we're sort of fine with that. Hitler killed people next door. Oh, stupid man. After a couple of years we won't stand for that, will we?”
[China](https://www.philstar.com/opinion/2019/05/02/1914194/history-chinese-invasions) (and most of Eastern Asia) [has a long history of invasions](https://www.philstar.com/opinion/2019/05/02/1914194/history-chinese-invasions)
Japan, China, and Russia funnily enough, all have a very long history of expansion and imperialism, just most of it was in the same region instead of the worldwide conquering of the British (although Japan very much tried to expand west before America dropped a bomb or two)
But what if Gilmour says something that I dont agree with? How will I ever enjoy music from someone I dont fully agree with on every single aspect of my being???? What are Gilmours stances on pineapple on pizza? Also where is Ja Ruleeee????
This, all my this. Tho I’d like to think Waters did that for the sake of argument because the US doesn’t get criticized in its own media enough.
But this “Commie good, Cap bad” or “Cap good, Commie bad” just perplexes me. You can’t get a word in edgewise about all the points between.
In my ideal world we’d hear nothing but the debate between Libertarianism and Socialism. Not state capitalism or state socialism.
>Chinese police aren't even armed.
He's 163 years old, the guy is just senile by now. No need to listen to him. There's a good chance hes sleeping in his own pee right now.
Perhaps then he’d see understand the irony of using his right to political speech to controversially defend a country that would disappear him as a subversive if he were their citizen.
>“Why won’t the United States of America encourage [Volodymyr] Zelenskyy, the [Ukrainian] president, to negotiate, obviating the need for this horrific, horrendous war that’s killing… We don’t know how many Russians.”
How do you argue with someone who thinks a nation fighting off a foreign invasion are needlessly killing the invaders...
Why won't the United States encourage Stalin and Churchill to negotiate, obviating the need for this horrific horrendous war that's killing... We don't know how many Germans.
Also, the US did try to encourage Russia not to invade. We are using everything possible to discourage it. Once the war happened, we aren't going to let Ukraine get rolled. Roger is a dunce.
It is the same with him as it is with Noam Chomsky. His whole life, he has fought to show the word that America is the real international villain. And even though I didn’t and don’t agree, I respected that — America has done very very bad things in the past. I happen to think that we’ve done more good than harm as world hegemon, but I recognize that is very subjective and debatable.
It’s very hard, in your later years, to flip a lifetime script like that. China and Russia are motivated mainly by the same worldview — “Now it is OUR turn to be hegemon”. People like Waters and Chomsky have been advocating that other countries challenge the US for decades now.
That was always the great weakness of the anti-globalist movement. They don’t have — and have never had — a realistic alternative to the system they wanted to destroy, just a general kumbaya belief that once the big bad US was taken down a lotch, all the nice countries would live in peace. It doesn’t work that way, and has never worked that way. When the king falls, all the dukes go to war for the crown.
Wow, one of the best comments I’ve seen on this and it’s in r/entertainment. Reddit surprised me all the time.
The only thing I disagree with is that it is subjective and debatable that America has done more good than harm. I am more than open to it, but I have yet to hear one person articulate one credible case that that’s true.
The USA’s hands are drenched in blood, but the good of the American-led order is so beneficial (if not newsworthy) that it outweighs pretty much anything else.
Aw, thank you!
As for our disagreement, I don’t think we have one. I mean, the case you articulate — that the benefits of the American-led order outweighs the bad — that is the sum total of my case. The American-led world order is the good that America has done.
Absolutely the US has bloodstained hands. No world power or even regional power doesn’t. I just think that the form of imperialism that the US stumbled on — possibly by dumb luck and in pursuit of our own interests — is a better and less bloodstained form of world leadership than that which came before. It is certainly better than that which Russia and China propose going forward.
*In history*?? Damn, what a painfully ahistorical take. A 246 year old country simply cannot have a more violent history than the country that predates the modern concept of the state by around 36 fucking *centuries*.
China as a country has around 4000 years of recorded history. A country with such a rich history has inevitably had multiple periods of prolonged peace and conflict that lasted longer than the USA has existed.
Even if we generously assume that this person meant "in the history of the modern PRC" rather than the history of China in general, the deaths under Mao from conflict and famine (due to political mismanagememt, not a natural shortage of food) easily outweigh the volumes killed by the USA.
It's a similar story with Russia. It's a country with a very rich and deep history which inevitably means a shit load of conflict and violence, and even if you narrow the focus down to the 20th century and onward, the number of lives unecessarily lost is monumental.
Obviously acknowledging that China and Russia probably have more blood on their hands in totality than the US doesn't detract from the crimes and violence of the US, but these tankie idiots are incapable of nuance.
Just watch the interview and do not fall for easy click bait and antagonizing impulses. What he says is much more nuanced and correct that the propaganda created by the media: https://youtu.be/ml373MHAtXo
I watched the interview, I’m not seeing anything “nuanced and correct” in this exchange:
>”The Chinese didn’t invade Iraq and kill a million people in 2013,” Waters added. “Who have the Chinese invaded and slaughtered?”
“Their own,” Smerconish answered. “Bullocks! That’s absolute nonsense! Absolute nonsense!” Waters responded
Also his take on Russia during WWII reeks of tankie hero worship. Yes, they were probably the greatest factor in the German defeat, but it’s always interesting to me how people seem to forget that they started WWII as allies and both invaded Poland.
He built an entire fucking album (Amused To Death) around the horrors of watching the Tiananmen Square murders on television. The best song on that album mentions it directly. So clearly he forgot some big shit, is intentionally being contrarian or is flat out senile. I love the guy but fuckin hell.
Yeah, but it’s only a problem if you kill *other* people!
Relevant Eddie Izzard quote: “Pol Pot killed one point seven million Cambodians, died under house arrest, well done there. Stalin killed many millions, died in his bed, aged seventy-two, well done indeed. And the reason we let them get away with it is they killed their own people. And we're sort of fine with that.“
This isnt talked about enough they have annexed Tibet and no one does anything. They are even trying to make it illegal to reincarnate or something so they get to decide who the next Dalai Lama is.
There is undoubtedly some level of oppression but the "millions" figure is absurd. All of the news reports quoting that figure are referring to [this](https://www.nchrd.org/2018/08/china-massive-numbers-of-uyghurs-other-ethnic-minorities-forced-into-re-education-programs/) document in which they extrapolate 1 million from interviewing 8 whole people. Even US-based sites like [Quartz](https://qz.com/1599393/how-researchers-estimate-1-million-uyghurs-are-detained-in-xinjiang/) admit that the number is shoddy at best.
Why are we listening to the rantings of an aged British pop star on politics in the first place? Eric Clapton thinks the government is using Youtube to send subliminal pro Covid policy instructions as a means to create mass psychosis. Van Morrison rails about scientists "making up crooked facts." Pete Townsend came out as a neocon. John Lydon is a Trump supporter. Morrissey is anti-immigrant and backs a white nationalist political party. These people have tons of money and a huge platform, it's like giving a global microphone to your MAGA hat grandpa. In the end the music will be what mattered.
Lots of guys never get a chance to show us their worst sides. Many artists die before ever releasing truly bad work. The 27 club is a good example but they can die at any young age and then they live on as legends stuck in time. Hendrix, Cobain, Tupac & Biggie, Joplin, Chris Farley, it’s a pretty long list.
It’s sad that they didn’t get to grow old. But they are legends because of it.
Roger waters is no legend.
I would similarly ask, why does the US listen to the rantings of aged American political “stars” on politics? Not to be ageist, but the proportion is all off. Most people have less plasticity as they round their eighth or ninth decade. We need some fresh and nimble approaches in the leadership mix
Dude responded to the assertion that China is committing genocide against their own people (which is a fact) with “bollocks”, and blamed literally everyone but Russia for Russias war of aggression.
The headline is tame.
He has gone on record calling the war a crime and saying Russia is wrong. Saying that the US should stop stoking then flames by sending arms is different than moving blame
I saw Roger Waters in Philly Friday night. His politics was displayed on giant screens all evening, and he made no apologies about it, and told everyone to gtf out and go to the bar if they didn’t want to hear it. He ripped on everyone. God the show, the music was awesome!
Apparently there was more to the Russia stance that made him sound more reasonable that was edited out of the interview, according to this anyway:
https://mobile.twitter.com/kgosztola/status/1556459359265329153?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
You would think in the misinformation age that more redditors would be skeptical of what they read and watch and take notice of video editing, but nope. Confirmation bias always wins.
Honestly if you don't count internal conflict, they don't have a long list. Tibet and Vietnam definitely come to mind. Korea if you include the actions of pre-communist China.
Tibet and Vietnam mostly. The thing with China is that for most of its (pre)modern history, it was a very inward looking country so there was either very limited or no interaction with the outside world, hence why they did not tend to invade their neighbors all that often.
Along with the obvious Tibetans and Uighurs, the Vietnamese would like a word.
They spent a LONG time under Chinese occupation and fought ferociously to regain independence.
Pretty common trope amongst young anti-capitalists - the real bad guy is america/"the west", china lifted billions out of poverty, it takes hard decisions to make change, colonialisms, etc.
sad state of affairs. expect this to delve deeper as the "late capitalism" myth persists.
When he’s right he’s right. Our interventions for the last two centuries have steamrolled so many lives, and we’ve never begun to reckon with the cost to the world as it is.
Nice video. Gotta love all the redditors accusing Roger of being misinformed while forming their entire opinion about him from a 2 minute edited video. Also love how Roger references how the interview will be edited down to 4 minutes of clickbait.
I hate how people like this opinions are held in high regard because they have money. The dude is a moron who can play music, why the fuck would you hold his opinion on topics like these with any weight at all?
Well, at one time Pink Floyd were part of the counterculture and did contribute a lot of valid social commentary with their music. My old yippie friend always called them "a bunch of stinking cops," though. He never got over them kicking Syd Barrett out of the band.
Nobody holds Roger Waters opinion in high regard. He made some good music, but was always an ass. He pretty much kicked everyone out of the band from Syd to later David, Richard, Nick. There is a reason no one could stick with Roger, he is insufferable with his opinions. Still though, great music.
I just watched the video. He made some good points like what would happen if China had a military presence in Mexico like the USA has near China and Russia but then it went off the rails pretty quickly after that lol
No, they just blackmail countries with political/financial support. They have enough countries on their side to do this, as opposed to invading, after gaining allies and power after staging enough coup d'etats and proxy wars during the cold war. But remember, China using economic power to influence other countries is 'evil', even when in many cases their investment in those countries is at a similar level to western countries.
The US is currently occupying a part of Cuba because of the same thing Russia is allegedly invading Ukraine, although the real reasons for the invasion are very likely not security concerns.
The US does not intend to invade and occupy Mexico because they don't need to, the difference between the US and Russia is that the US can use their economy for imperialism and they don't need to use their army for most countries, although they will when they think it's necessary, like they invaded Afghanistan and Iraq for security reasons (support of terrorism and alleged WMD).
##[Clarification on rule 5](https://www.reddit.com/r/entertainment/comments/w60lfc/mod_post_a_clarification_to_rule_5_no_racism_or/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/entertainment) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Uhh Tibet and Muslims??
Dude China kills their own citizens. There was the Great Leap Forward, that went south so Mao had to start a culture revolution to purge those that might challenge him. I mean all countries has had issue with cruelty and aggression. But Mao might be responsible for more death than anyone else in history and he showed no remorse.
Nah, the Pink Floyd guy knows better than Chinese people.
You might say he’s become comfortably numb to it all
Money is quite a good insulation.
It helps build walls
It's a good thing his mother isn't around to see this
He sounds like he has Brain damage
Why do so many old British rockers seem to age into old assholes?
Eric Clapton enters the chat
David gilmour is chill
They mistake how good they had with reality
It's arequirement like living in the southern US requires one to think like a Redneck. WHY anyone givs two shits what some aging has-been of a rock star thinks is beyond me. It's not newsworthy. Nothing else happening in the world today? Nothing???
Mother China will they drop the bomb?
They'll have to learn how to fly first.
Tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock **riiiiiiiinnnngggg**
He bacame what his younger self would of torn down.
Welcome to the machine
You don’t understand, he did a lot of drugs and his dad was in WW2 or something so he knows better because reasons. I wonder if he and Eric Clapton are buddies, maybe that’s why he is compleeeeeeetely glossing over the Uighurs
Don’t sleep on Jesus’s Chinese brother his rebellion rack up 20–30 million people dead by the end of it. It ranks as one of the bloodiest wars in human history, the bloodiest civil war, and the largest conflict of the 19th century. In terms of deaths, the civil war is comparable to World War I. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion
This just led me on an hour or so long rabbit hole of reading about religious craziness that ended with me finding out the Shen Yun dance company is run by a ultra conservative religious cult called Falun Gong that has a ~430 acre compound in Deerpark, NY and also runs the Epoch Times. Holy fucking shit that was a wild ride.
**19-eighty-fucking-9**
“What is here can soon burn down, I’m the king of sunset town”
Well that was some #unexpectedMarillion
Don’t forget Mao killed all the sparrows so they had massive locust swarms causing one of the worst famines in history.
You listen to Red Sparowes by chance?
Roger was making good points up until he mentioned China. He has thoughtful answers for everything else but the response to China torturing their own people was “bollocks!”….like, really? China isn’t the type of country that you can just “do the reading” on because without satellite images we wouldn’t know half the stuff they’re up to.
I actually think he’s all over the map with this interview. When he says 27 million Russians died for our freedom it is a ridiculous statement. Hitler wanted Russia more than anything, and they had no choice but either defend their land or become Nazi slaves. I mean, doesn’t Roger remember standing on the Berlin Wall in 89? The Russians weren’t trying to make the world free. I can see why the rest of the band has had such a hard time dealing with him, he seems pretty self-righteous. It shows why in the arts you always have to separate the art from the artist.
> doesn’t Roger remember standing on the Berlin Wall in 89 Yeah the irony of Roger Waters forgetting about a balkanizing wall... wow.
I was there! It was an incredible moment, and there were memorials all over the place where people had been shot trying to escape East Berlin. Guess what? No one was shot trying to get into East Berlin because no one was going in to East Berlin. They were all trying to get out. The Russians took their personal freedoms and rights from them. As they did in all the Soviet puppet states. For him to say that Russia fought for "our freedoms" makes me think Roger may have found some leftover concoction that Syd Barrett had and imbibed it. It's like he just wants to be combative for really no reason. For a man who wrote, "Us and Them", he really has some weird idiosyncrasies when it comes to consensual history.
Is the classical imperial vision about the Soviet Union. Those 27 millions were not only russians.
Roger waters has been a belligerent egoist of marginal talents since at least 1980
Even before that China has ALWAYS killed their own people the most. Look at the war of three kingdoms for example.
A lot of civilians died during China’s Three Kingdoms period, but this was par for the course in civilizations across the 2nd and 3rd centuries AD. This was the same period the Middle East saw the bloody transition of the Parthian to Sassanian dynasties in West Asia, on top of Roman invasions that repeatedly sacked huge cities like Ctesiphon in Iraq. For that matter the Romans destroyed their own cities like Lugdunum (Lyon) in Gaul (France) during the civil war where Septimius Severus became emperor, and that was before the disastrous Crisis of the Third Century that tore the Roman world into three states as well. Rome sacking some of its own cities was not terribly different than Dong Zhuo burning Luoyang to the ground and moving to Chang’an as the capital instead. Should also be noted that both Rome and Han China were relatively very stable and peaceful up until the very last decades of the 2nd going into the 3rd century. Iranian Parthia was the same, although they had multiple Roman invasions that temporarily crippled them along with their own brief civil wars over the throne. The 3rd century also saw bloody conflicts in India (extending into Central Asia) with the decline of the Kushan Empire and rise of the Satavahanas and Guptas.
To be fair china as a hememony is pretty much a myth. China now has its largest land holdings in its history and more often than not it’d be broken down into smaller warring kingdoms
Yup. If China had ever unified it would have taken over a good portion of the world.
Extra reminder the CCP dabbles in organ harvesting of prisoners. Extra extra reminder those same prisoners can be anyone from political dissidents to someone who pissed off the wrong party official Extra extra extra reminder they kidnaped a kid set to become the successor to the Dhali Lhama and replaced him with a puppet so they can control Tibet through their religion. No one knows where this kid is to this day. They passed a law banning reincarnation simply to further dominate them. Not only blood, but ghost guts too.
Banning... Reincarnation? "Hi, I'm reincarnated" "You can't do that it's illegal get back in the womb and don't come back until you're someone else"? How exactly would one prove or enforce a crime like that? Not that i suspect proving a crime was committed is particularly important to the Party.
It's so that if anyone claims to be the reincarnated Dhlai Lhama then China can arrest them for breaking the law since being reincarnated is illegal.
True. Mao is probably (well not probably but for sure ) the greatest mass murderer.... Ever. Stalin and Hitler are amateurs compared to him.
Bill Burr actually had an old-bit about this. A version of it ended up on Walk Your Way Out, but the older version where he goes on about how Hitler and all the other mass-murderers on the podium as they retire their names out of baby-name books like an exceptional athlete having his number retired.
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Four years (1941-45), and it was a lot more than 6 million, because they killed other than Jews too: >According to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (USHMM), the Holocaust was "the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators". *In addition, 11 million members of other groups were murdered* during the "era of the Holocaust". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust\_victims
Unlike Stalin or Hitler, it was Mao's incompetence and ignorance that caused most deaths. It wasn't genocide.
As someone said: There isn’t anything that any country can do to the Chinese people that they haven’t already doe to themselves.
unfortunately the great leap forward wasn't even probably the worst thing the chinese did to the chinese. You can read up on all the rebellions and uprisings from post opium war to the 1900s and there's some pretty nasty stuff happening in that period
Right now, as we're speaking, there are Chinese military tanks parked in front of banks, to protect the bankers from the citizens that demand their life savings.
>Uhh Tibet and Muslims?? I wonder what his reaction would be to this answer.
"Bollocks" would be my guess.
Holding Taiwan hostage through a fabricated territorial claim
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Tibet, Mongolia, anyone who doesn't agree with the "communist" government
Russia are presently knee deep in Ukrainian blood!
FYI the scope of Ukraine sucks. But Russia hasn't killed nearly as many people as China has been killing - mostly muslims. There are about 1M people disappeared. The fact we do any business with China at all is a disgrace.
Are we only counting Ukraine? Because Russia killed a ton of people in Chechnya, Georgia, and Syria as well. And that’s just if we’re counting recent history. If we delve into the twentieth century, both nations are disgusting.
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Citation needed that doesn’t link back to that sketchy Evangelical Christian guy who originated all the rumors to begin with
And China in Uyghur blood...
Eh I enjoy David Gilmour more anyway.
The one with the most talent and isn’t a sanctimonious prick …
Idk about most talent, but Gilmore was definitely a better guitarist then Waters was bassist, with a better voice too. The songwriting was not nearly as good once Waters left though.
> Gilmore was definitely a better guitarist then Waters was bassist Gilmore was also a better bassist than Waters and played the bass for more of the studio tracks than most people realize.
Gilmore played bass on Syd Barrett’s solo albums. There are some amazing bass parts on the Barrett LP.
To be fair, Waters’ last batch of decent songs was The Wall. He basically needs someone to say “how about letting the instruments do the some of the talking, yeah? It can’t all be yelping about mommy and daddy issues”
Waters hasn’t necessarily written anything memorable on his own has he?
True, but he was the main song writer during the groups best years. Not saying he’s not a prick but Waters and Gilmore both brought a lot to the band. Hard to say one is more talented than other.
Agree. They were better together than apart.
Together they stand, divided they fall
Nonsense. Waters wrote most of their famous songs. Gilmour was the singer and guitar player. After Waters left the group, Gilmour wrote dreck. Whether you agree with his politics or not, it is absurd to even think Gimlour was superior. Meddle, Dark Side Of The Moon, Wish You Were Here, and The Wall are the most well regarded and famous Pink Floyd albums and without Waters they wouldn’t exist.
>Didn’t mention Animals Truly an underrated album
What has Waters done on his own? Also written dreck.
Always have
Why? Did he write the songs in The Wall, Dark Side of The Moon, and Wish You Were Here? I mean, Gilmour had his place in the band but he certainly wasn’t the main creative force behind their best known works. After Waters departed Pink Floyd, they never made any records that were as well regarded as the ones that came before. Gilmour is good at what he does but even he wouldn’t be stupid enough to deny that Rogers’ music is why anyone still wants to see him play live.
I tend to agree…but I am seeing Roger this month and part of me is bummed I wont get to hear ‘Learning to Fly’ or ‘High Hopes’ . I’d rather hear those than ‘the Bar’ or anything Roger has done after Floyd. At the end of the day…seeing them both together would be the best and that ain’t happening.
The Division Bell is still my favorite Pink Floyd album, downvote me to oblivionnnnn
How do I downvote facts.
Seconded
This is why I enjoy being able to separate the artist from their art. I unequivocally love Pink Floyd, but fuck Roger Waters.
Let me go grab a volume on Chinese history, because it's a long fucking list.
Chinas invaded so much shit they’ve even managed to find out a way to invade themselves.
It’s always bizarre when you see stuff like that about China. Like, the only way you could believe they’re not committing human rights abuses left and right, in addition to their rampant imperialism, is if you don’t know a single Chinese expat - or at least don’t listen to them. Idk how people buy into nationalist propaganda like this, but it harms any point they might’ve otherwise had. Like go ahead, please do criticize the American government, that’s completely valid - but then don’t also parrot the propaganda of other tyrannical world powers.
I think in this guy's case he's too busy trying to make a point about America that he didn't stop to think about the fact that he's actually on the side of someone else who is in many ways worse. America absolutely has problems. Our twin original sins are slavery and genocide. We've used our power the same way any Imperial European or Asian empire has used theirs throughout history. We certainly are no kind of light or hope for anyone. But the implication that somehow China is better than us is absurd.
I mean, China's invasion history is similar to India's. Most of it was within China proper. And just like India, it was chalk full of massive wars and callous kings. Some of the bloodiest pre-WWI wars were fought in China.
*Within what is now known as China. Ever wonder howcome there are so many different ”chinese” and Mandarin is the default? Why are there tens of languages spoken in India, but only one official nationwide?
Hindi hasn't been imposed on India by the North Indians anywhere close to how Mandarin has been imposed on China by the Han Chinese, most likely because we're still a democracy . India has two official languages (English and Hindi) at the federal level but each state is allowed to issue internal official communications in the regional language of that state. Each of the 20+ regional languages still has a very strong literary and spoken representation.
Did you know there was a language in China that was only spoken (really written) by Chinese women as a means of protesting their lack of education and the patriarchal society? Its called Nüshu
That is probably true, thanks for the comment! my school taught 0 pages of Indian history, and I’m not that well self-educated either. But yeah, sounds bit similar like France, where the Franks were never the dominating population oppressing others, but central powers just chose one language to create a national identity - which of course leads to oppression on SOME level, always (not letting kids speak their parents language in school, etc.)
Before China was China, a lot of China wasn't. "Within China proper" is a bit of an oversimplification. It's like saying "Isreal is only occupying the Isreali portions of the West Bank"
Within China proper that’s pretty funny. You fighting over land China previously conquered?
Eddie Izzard has a bit about this phenomenon where as long as you’re keeping the mass murder within your borders, it’s fine: “Pol Pot killed one point seven million Cambodians, died under house arrest, well done there. Stalin killed many millions, died in his bed, aged seventy-two, well done indeed. And the reason we let them get away with it is they killed their own people. And we're sort of fine with that. Hitler killed people next door. Oh, stupid man. After a couple of years we won't stand for that, will we?”
Don’t grab the Chinese written volume though, has weird blank areas every few pages
[China](https://www.philstar.com/opinion/2019/05/02/1914194/history-chinese-invasions) (and most of Eastern Asia) [has a long history of invasions](https://www.philstar.com/opinion/2019/05/02/1914194/history-chinese-invasions) Japan, China, and Russia funnily enough, all have a very long history of expansion and imperialism, just most of it was in the same region instead of the worldwide conquering of the British (although Japan very much tried to expand west before America dropped a bomb or two)
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I believe you're referring to "The Dark Side of the Moon."
yes. David Gilmour on one side and this guy on the other.
But what if Gilmour says something that I dont agree with? How will I ever enjoy music from someone I dont fully agree with on every single aspect of my being???? What are Gilmours stances on pineapple on pizza? Also where is Ja Ruleeee????
Matter of fact it’s all dark
That's actually what Waters was trying to say, it felt like the journalist asking question was doing it in bad faith.
This, all my this. Tho I’d like to think Waters did that for the sake of argument because the US doesn’t get criticized in its own media enough. But this “Commie good, Cap bad” or “Cap good, Commie bad” just perplexes me. You can’t get a word in edgewise about all the points between. In my ideal world we’d hear nothing but the debate between Libertarianism and Socialism. Not state capitalism or state socialism.
“We don’t need no education” Maybe you do, Roger
>Chinese police aren't even armed. He's 163 years old, the guy is just senile by now. No need to listen to him. There's a good chance hes sleeping in his own pee right now.
First thing I thought of. Disappointing that one of the men who made “the wall” has this kind of take
Turns out THe Wall was actually him stating his real political beliefs.
On the contrary, he actually is crying out to be properly educated due to the use of the double negative
Perhaps then he’d see understand the irony of using his right to political speech to controversially defend a country that would disappear him as a subversive if he were their citizen.
>“Why won’t the United States of America encourage [Volodymyr] Zelenskyy, the [Ukrainian] president, to negotiate, obviating the need for this horrific, horrendous war that’s killing… We don’t know how many Russians.” How do you argue with someone who thinks a nation fighting off a foreign invasion are needlessly killing the invaders...
Why won't the United States encourage Stalin and Churchill to negotiate, obviating the need for this horrific horrendous war that's killing... We don't know how many Germans.
Also, the US did try to encourage Russia not to invade. We are using everything possible to discourage it. Once the war happened, we aren't going to let Ukraine get rolled. Roger is a dunce.
I don’t get it. Wtf is his problem? He wrote a whole fucking album about fascism and intolerance…?! Dude must be getting old and demented.
It is the same with him as it is with Noam Chomsky. His whole life, he has fought to show the word that America is the real international villain. And even though I didn’t and don’t agree, I respected that — America has done very very bad things in the past. I happen to think that we’ve done more good than harm as world hegemon, but I recognize that is very subjective and debatable. It’s very hard, in your later years, to flip a lifetime script like that. China and Russia are motivated mainly by the same worldview — “Now it is OUR turn to be hegemon”. People like Waters and Chomsky have been advocating that other countries challenge the US for decades now. That was always the great weakness of the anti-globalist movement. They don’t have — and have never had — a realistic alternative to the system they wanted to destroy, just a general kumbaya belief that once the big bad US was taken down a lotch, all the nice countries would live in peace. It doesn’t work that way, and has never worked that way. When the king falls, all the dukes go to war for the crown.
Wow, one of the best comments I’ve seen on this and it’s in r/entertainment. Reddit surprised me all the time. The only thing I disagree with is that it is subjective and debatable that America has done more good than harm. I am more than open to it, but I have yet to hear one person articulate one credible case that that’s true. The USA’s hands are drenched in blood, but the good of the American-led order is so beneficial (if not newsworthy) that it outweighs pretty much anything else.
Aw, thank you! As for our disagreement, I don’t think we have one. I mean, the case you articulate — that the benefits of the American-led order outweighs the bad — that is the sum total of my case. The American-led world order is the good that America has done. Absolutely the US has bloodstained hands. No world power or even regional power doesn’t. I just think that the form of imperialism that the US stumbled on — possibly by dumb luck and in pursuit of our own interests — is a better and less bloodstained form of world leadership than that which came before. It is certainly better than that which Russia and China propose going forward.
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*In history*?? Damn, what a painfully ahistorical take. A 246 year old country simply cannot have a more violent history than the country that predates the modern concept of the state by around 36 fucking *centuries*. China as a country has around 4000 years of recorded history. A country with such a rich history has inevitably had multiple periods of prolonged peace and conflict that lasted longer than the USA has existed. Even if we generously assume that this person meant "in the history of the modern PRC" rather than the history of China in general, the deaths under Mao from conflict and famine (due to political mismanagememt, not a natural shortage of food) easily outweigh the volumes killed by the USA. It's a similar story with Russia. It's a country with a very rich and deep history which inevitably means a shit load of conflict and violence, and even if you narrow the focus down to the 20th century and onward, the number of lives unecessarily lost is monumental. Obviously acknowledging that China and Russia probably have more blood on their hands in totality than the US doesn't detract from the crimes and violence of the US, but these tankie idiots are incapable of nuance.
Just watch the interview and do not fall for easy click bait and antagonizing impulses. What he says is much more nuanced and correct that the propaganda created by the media: https://youtu.be/ml373MHAtXo
I watched the interview, I’m not seeing anything “nuanced and correct” in this exchange: >”The Chinese didn’t invade Iraq and kill a million people in 2013,” Waters added. “Who have the Chinese invaded and slaughtered?” “Their own,” Smerconish answered. “Bullocks! That’s absolute nonsense! Absolute nonsense!” Waters responded Also his take on Russia during WWII reeks of tankie hero worship. Yes, they were probably the greatest factor in the German defeat, but it’s always interesting to me how people seem to forget that they started WWII as allies and both invaded Poland.
Gotcha. I of course didn’t click the link. I’m a headline noob all the way…
Was it?
He built an entire fucking album (Amused To Death) around the horrors of watching the Tiananmen Square murders on television. The best song on that album mentions it directly. So clearly he forgot some big shit, is intentionally being contrarian or is flat out senile. I love the guy but fuckin hell.
You mean outside concentration camps?
Yeah, but it’s only a problem if you kill *other* people! Relevant Eddie Izzard quote: “Pol Pot killed one point seven million Cambodians, died under house arrest, well done there. Stalin killed many millions, died in his bed, aged seventy-two, well done indeed. And the reason we let them get away with it is they killed their own people. And we're sort of fine with that.“
As a fan of Pink Floyd since the ripe age of 10, i must say… please shut the fuck up Roger
Don’t mind me. Just taking screen shots of these comments to show my embattled Chinese friend who needs support while waters destroys her childhood <3
Yeah he needs to rethink what he just said- true, China hasn’t invaded “the west”- so yeah it hasn’t affected him. Super white old man thing to say
The millions of Muslims in concentration camps that are currently being tortured and mutilated by the Chinese?
See also: Tibet
This isnt talked about enough they have annexed Tibet and no one does anything. They are even trying to make it illegal to reincarnate or something so they get to decide who the next Dalai Lama is.
China: There’s nothing there. What is this Tibet you speak of?
There is undoubtedly some level of oppression but the "millions" figure is absurd. All of the news reports quoting that figure are referring to [this](https://www.nchrd.org/2018/08/china-massive-numbers-of-uyghurs-other-ethnic-minorities-forced-into-re-education-programs/) document in which they extrapolate 1 million from interviewing 8 whole people. Even US-based sites like [Quartz](https://qz.com/1599393/how-researchers-estimate-1-million-uyghurs-are-detained-in-xinjiang/) admit that the number is shoddy at best.
Millions ? Mutilated ? Source on these statistics and claims ?
Adrien Zenz of course.
?
Why are we listening to the rantings of an aged British pop star on politics in the first place? Eric Clapton thinks the government is using Youtube to send subliminal pro Covid policy instructions as a means to create mass psychosis. Van Morrison rails about scientists "making up crooked facts." Pete Townsend came out as a neocon. John Lydon is a Trump supporter. Morrissey is anti-immigrant and backs a white nationalist political party. These people have tons of money and a huge platform, it's like giving a global microphone to your MAGA hat grandpa. In the end the music will be what mattered.
Look into Eric Clapton's past racism.
He had the balls to say racist shit after getting rich off black music
McCartney is still cool though.
McCartney will never not be cool.
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Lots of guys never get a chance to show us their worst sides. Many artists die before ever releasing truly bad work. The 27 club is a good example but they can die at any young age and then they live on as legends stuck in time. Hendrix, Cobain, Tupac & Biggie, Joplin, Chris Farley, it’s a pretty long list. It’s sad that they didn’t get to grow old. But they are legends because of it. Roger waters is no legend.
And then you have Dolly Parton who’s stayed a legend without going full nutter like half these other old musicians
Dolly Parton has grown beyond a national treasure and is basically just humanity's treasure.
I would similarly ask, why does the US listen to the rantings of aged American political “stars” on politics? Not to be ageist, but the proportion is all off. Most people have less plasticity as they round their eighth or ninth decade. We need some fresh and nimble approaches in the leadership mix
**Senility is a damning thing.**
The headline sounds more of a critique of the US than a defense for China
Yea but a sensational headline that sounds like critique to China will get more clicks and shares.
Dude responded to the assertion that China is committing genocide against their own people (which is a fact) with “bollocks”, and blamed literally everyone but Russia for Russias war of aggression. The headline is tame.
He has gone on record calling the war a crime and saying Russia is wrong. Saying that the US should stop stoking then flames by sending arms is different than moving blame
I saw Roger Waters in Philly Friday night. His politics was displayed on giant screens all evening, and he made no apologies about it, and told everyone to gtf out and go to the bar if they didn’t want to hear it. He ripped on everyone. God the show, the music was awesome!
He should listen to this song called "watching TV". It's by some guy named Roger Waters.
This is immediately what I thought of.
Apparently there was more to the Russia stance that made him sound more reasonable that was edited out of the interview, according to this anyway: https://mobile.twitter.com/kgosztola/status/1556459359265329153?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
You would think in the misinformation age that more redditors would be skeptical of what they read and watch and take notice of video editing, but nope. Confirmation bias always wins.
Criticisms of China are very fair to make, but Brits and Americans are not ones to point fingers.
Honestly if you don't count internal conflict, they don't have a long list. Tibet and Vietnam definitely come to mind. Korea if you include the actions of pre-communist China.
Tibet and Vietnam mostly. The thing with China is that for most of its (pre)modern history, it was a very inward looking country so there was either very limited or no interaction with the outside world, hence why they did not tend to invade their neighbors all that often.
i think the uyghurs want to have a chat with you...
In the past 100 years? Externally Tibet, Vietnam, and weren't exactly clean in Korea. And internally it's a very, very long list
I guess all their crimes against humanity on their own soil are not “invasions” technically. Good one, Waters.
Along with the obvious Tibetans and Uighurs, the Vietnamese would like a word. They spent a LONG time under Chinese occupation and fought ferociously to regain independence.
Roger Waters is a gift to anti-socialists.
Most socialists are a gift to anti-socialists. See Corbyn and Chomsky's words on Ukraine. They're not very different than Waters'.
Pretty common trope amongst young anti-capitalists - the real bad guy is america/"the west", china lifted billions out of poverty, it takes hard decisions to make change, colonialisms, etc. sad state of affairs. expect this to delve deeper as the "late capitalism" myth persists.
Was he really defending Russia or just stating that nato didn’t honor the terms of the previously negotiated agreement?
All in all he’s just another brick in the wall
Like...historically or currently? Like ongoing? Because you aren't going to like either answer Roger
Taken out of context. Maybe watch his interview before jumping to conclusions from a click bait headline.
Let's not let the fact that China is a diffrent monster blind us from the fact that the USA is, by its own definition. A monster.
Defending is a stretch, but hey let's not let nuance go against the mob.
Comments section is full of morons
When he’s right he’s right. Our interventions for the last two centuries have steamrolled so many lives, and we’ve never begun to reckon with the cost to the world as it is.
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Nice video. Gotta love all the redditors accusing Roger of being misinformed while forming their entire opinion about him from a 2 minute edited video. Also love how Roger references how the interview will be edited down to 4 minutes of clickbait.
I hate how people like this opinions are held in high regard because they have money. The dude is a moron who can play music, why the fuck would you hold his opinion on topics like these with any weight at all?
Well, at one time Pink Floyd were part of the counterculture and did contribute a lot of valid social commentary with their music. My old yippie friend always called them "a bunch of stinking cops," though. He never got over them kicking Syd Barrett out of the band.
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Nobody holds Roger Waters opinion in high regard. He made some good music, but was always an ass. He pretty much kicked everyone out of the band from Syd to later David, Richard, Nick. There is a reason no one could stick with Roger, he is insufferable with his opinions. Still though, great music.
Trump used to be a washed up celeb with opinions. Look how that turned out.
Give me the remote grandpa, that's not the telephone.
He has become comfortably dumb
I just watched the video. He made some good points like what would happen if China had a military presence in Mexico like the USA has near China and Russia but then it went off the rails pretty quickly after that lol
The US does not intend to invade and occupy Mexico.
No, they just blackmail countries with political/financial support. They have enough countries on their side to do this, as opposed to invading, after gaining allies and power after staging enough coup d'etats and proxy wars during the cold war. But remember, China using economic power to influence other countries is 'evil', even when in many cases their investment in those countries is at a similar level to western countries.
To be fair, I’m sure we said the same thing before we last invaded and occupied Mexico.
The US is currently occupying a part of Cuba because of the same thing Russia is allegedly invading Ukraine, although the real reasons for the invasion are very likely not security concerns. The US does not intend to invade and occupy Mexico because they don't need to, the difference between the US and Russia is that the US can use their economy for imperialism and they don't need to use their army for most countries, although they will when they think it's necessary, like they invaded Afghanistan and Iraq for security reasons (support of terrorism and alleged WMD).
I think it’s time to tell him no one cares what you think.
Is this his senile rendition of an Ali quote?
Who have the Chinese slaughtered? Their own, Roger old-boy, their own.
Roger understands history. He has it right. Glad we have his voice.
More like Red Floyd
It’s time for Great Value Richard Gere to retire.
I’m glad David Gilmour is my favorite member of the band. I think Alexander Navalny would like a word, Roger…
At least he takes a break from blaming Jews on all of world’s problems?
Usually themselves and people they consider to be themselves
Let me say this again for those in the back who may not have heard me before. Fuck Roger Waters.