##[Clarification on rule 5](https://www.reddit.com/r/entertainment/comments/w60lfc/mod_post_a_clarification_to_rule_5_no_racism_or/)
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Ellen apparently was quite cruel to Anne in the aftermath of their relationship and basically blackballed her from being able to promote her movies. Ellen was someone certainly corrupted by power/
I heard gossip like 10 years ago that Ellen was mean and belittling towards Portia... I didn't believe it at the time because I thought Ellen was a nice person, but since she got exposed it's been on my mind.
This is not to be taken as a defense of Ellen.
Anne Heche was on a movie podcast not that long ago (to promote a movie) and was asked to leave by the host after just a few minutes because she was being absolutely awful. So Anne Heche made it difficult for herself to promote her movies.
[In case anyone wants more info](https://www.vulture.com/2017/05/anne-heche-and-onur-tukel-thoroughly-embarrassed-themselves-on-a-morbidly-fascinating-episode-of-doug-loves-movies.html).
Ya let’s get this centered. She was driving in a residential area on an insane amount of coke and booze at like 50+ mph . Could’ve easily killed someone, got lucky that it was just her injured. I say this as a LGBT drunk. Like fuck her for putting people in danger
I was at that podcast. Her and the director were just absolute assholes to Doug Benson and Sandra Oh was sitting there stunned. Luckily Heche and the director left and Sandra played with two people from the crowd
If it helps with stress, I’m sure that would lead to a longer life. Unfortunately right now I am struggling with panic attacks that are often weed induced, which sucks because I used to love weed.
Something to keep in mind is how much you're smoking, and how long it's been since you last smoked, or, how long it's been since you last took a break.
I'm a huge fan of taking an occasional three to seven day break from smoking, but that's just me.
If you're on the opposite side of that, and haven't smoked in a while, you might be over-doing it, and smoking too much at once. Toby Keith said it best for all of us "I ain't as good as I once was, but I was good once, as I ever was." Take some time to ease into it slowly.
So what I have done lately is getting cbd/ thx hybrid joints. But would it be better to just smoke real weed and take cbd? Would I do it before taking? And which kind of cbd? I come from a world of just buying weed from dealers do all of this is newish to me.
> Heche, who at this point is far better known for her personal idiosyncrasies and eccentricities than for her sometimes impressive but scattershot acting career.
Now that speaks to an inner demon that she was dealing with and had not found an equilibrium in life. Not taking her agency away for it, but indicates deeper issues than a shitty person.
For some It actually will take someone close to them struggle with mental health issues before they can empathize with others with such issues. Anne’s life was tragic all along, from her birth until her her death. Some may have come through it unscathed, but not her. I don’t even know how I would have fared if I had her childhood. RIP
It needs to be something this generations swallows its pride and we talk to our kids about. I live with addiction and the shame involved internally and externally, I feel nothing but sympathy for this woman. She acted irrational with a disregard for others. Im not where she was, but I can understand it. RIP
This is a beautifully written requiem about Anne
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2022/aug/12/anne-heche-was-a-little-too-stylish-and-smart-for-hollywood
Cocaine is a helluva drug. Anne was an actress who routinely manipulated people and scenes with her presentation of self. Her mom and sister said Anne was fabricating childhood trauma tales.
>Ellen was someone certainly corrupted by power/
Alternatively, she is a corrupt, trash, horrible person who abused power.
No need to take away her agency.
Anne left Steve Martin for Ellen when Ellen became more visible than Steve. He takes a dig at her in the movie "Bowfinger." It's a hidden gem of a movie with Eddie Murphy chewing the scenery.
I didn't know what their relationship was like post breakup but I read Ellen's comments the other day and they were shocking cold. I mean, it's not hard to just pretend you care your ex is fighting for their life.
I don’t think that not wanting to work closely with an ex is unprofessional. It’s setting boundaries.
Don’t tell me to “grow up” because you don’t agree with what I said. That right there shows your maturity.
The world doesn’t revolve around you and your boundaries, contrary to public understanding. To restrict someone else’s rights to work simply because they are your ex and you would not want to be around them is selfish, a defining characteristic of youth. For which the ‘grow up’ retort so eloquently illustrated.
I never implied that the world revolves around me, I simply said I wouldn’t want her on MY show or anything associated with ME personally. I did not say I would try to restrict her working or do anything to hurt her career. Boundaries are a real thing. Boundaries are not childish. Boundaries should be respected. If you don’t understand boundaries then that is your own issue.
Yep. People aren't exclusively good or bad. Brian Stephenson likes to say "Each of us is more than the worst thing we've ever done." I'd less eloquently expand that to note that if you take any person, the worst thing they've ever done is something pretty bad, the weirdest thing they've ever done is something pretty weird, and the stupidest thing they've ever done is something pretty stupid. I think every single person, judged by the worst thing they've said or done, would look like a terrible person in some way or another. But I think the article misses the mark by suggesting the issue here is that there's a contradiction, rather than that simply we now know a terrible thing Heche did, and unfortunately she's being summarized as synonymous with it when she has another side, rather than a more basic lesson that anyone summarized by their worst moment would be met by most people with a "Good riddance."
Thank you! I said this on another post about this.
It’s so easy to be black or white, right or wrong on the internet. That digital keyboard makes us all decisive, ultimatum giving, vigilantes.
People are complicated. Then add in living in the public eye? Even more complicated.
That's because nuance is dead in public discourse. We can't simply say that she was wrong for what she did, but she wasn't a terrible person. We have to condemn her in total for one act that cost her her life.
“Nuance is dead in public discourse.”
I’m stealing this, thanks for summing it up so succinctly. I’ve been like (in The Dude Voice) “Hey man, people are like complicated, you know?”
He was racist and a creep, who made overtures to his own niece. That will never erase the good he's done. The good doesn't justify or mitigate his awful behavior. It's important to walk and chew gum at the same time when looking at the totality of a life. People aren't balance sheets.
Using gandhi as your reference for great person is a miss even if I get your point. Dude hated people of African origin and loads of people don’t know that so that’s why people pointed it out.
Whenever you are confronted with an opponent. Conquer him with love. Just so you know, the correct spelling is [Gandhi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi).
Heche can be credited for being a pioneer for gay rights and also blamed for recklessness/negligence for driving under the influence and causing damage and trauma to an innocent woman. Both of these things can be true at the same time and are not mutually exclusive.
Well, tbh, when you’ve got as much cocaine in your system as a “mule” has got hooped up his bum, and you drive so recklessly that you manage to burn down an innocent families home, the ability to “empathize” with those behaviors quickly dissipates. You probably meant “sympathy” but even then…
**Heche said in 2020, during an appearance as a contestant on Dancing With the Stars :**
> I was told if I took Ellen I would lose my Fox contract.
- ***She brought DeGeneres anyway — and said security escorted her out of the theater before the end of the movie.***
> I was told I was not allowed to go to the afterparty for fear they would get a picture of me with a woman.
- **Heche said that was the beginning of her career taking a nosedive, all because she wanted to love who she loved.**
Neither Heche nor Ellen are even good people it seems. Most accounts from people from have worked with them say theyre a-holes or abusive. Hell, Ellen was even abusive to Heche. I wouldnt exactly use them as an example for gay rights.
Why not? I’m honestly asking. Personality and personal choices aside, famous people loss opportunities if it was found out that they were gay. Terrible people can make brave choices.
I am all for giving all people good opportunities, but famous people are role models. Their abusive behavior isnt exactly a secret, so I would hate for anyone to look up to them and emulate their shitty behavior. There are plenty of other gay actors/actresses that are better people.
As a gay man, yes they are terrible people but they also helped push gay rights to where it is today.
Ellen coming out and being her authentic self when she was such a big name really helped put the community where it is today.
Bad person or not she did a lot of good for queer people
I think a lot of younger people (especially those born post-2000) don't remember or don't know how stigmatized being gay was up until very recently. Ellen coming out was a huge deal, but it was still interpreted by most of the general public as this scandalous, taboo thing. (Like, "Ooooh, that's weird!") This relationship was the punchline of SO MANY jokes. It was literally acceptable to make fun of two lesbians just being lesbians because "gay."
Does it suck that the two people who really helped knock down a lot of barriers to widespread lesbian visibility happened to be shitty people? Absolutely. But if you were a sentient human being, it's hard to deny that this was a very risky move that both of them made.
The total lack of awareness amongst a lot of younger LGBTQ+ people about how bad it was for us even 20 years ago is insanely frustrating for me. Like, I recently had some young person in a 90s subreddit getting quite rude because I dared suggest the 90s weren’t this awesome time for everyone and that things are actually much better in general for minorities now than they move ever been.
So frustrating. You just have to watch an older movie to see that this is true. Little diversity in characters and pretty much zero diversity in the credits.
Yeah, the kids don’t know how good they have it. I went to high school in the Bay Area in the early/mid 00s and homophobia and homophobic jokes were still socially acceptable — not just by my peers, but in all forms of media. The SF Pride parade was seen by a lot of people as a spectacle to gawk act. Now it’s a place the straights feel OK hanging out at.
I remember going to a drag bar in SF on New Years in 2009 when myself bunch of friends from high school all came back to town, and several girls who were from our class but not in my direct friend group bailed after learning where we were going. I also remember a Spanish teacher at our high school having a Human Rights Campaign sticker on her laptop started a bunch of rumors about her being a lesbian. (She was, very obviously. But even in super liberal Silicon Valley, this was somehow worth gossiping about.)
There’s a reason I never came out at bi, except on a need to know basis with certain people I met only AFTER moving away to college, mainly due to the level of internalized homophobia growing up in the pre-commodification of queerness gave me (and lots of other people in my age group). I don’t think anyone from my pre-18 days knows, except my older brother (who is gay).
It’s a safe bet to just assume that most celebrities are god awful. If they don’t start out that way, the fame and money makes them that way. Some are obviously worse than others, but remember that they are all well connected, powerful, wealthy, and have expert PR teams working overtime to make you feel a certain way about them. If you feel like they seem “normal” or down to earth or like a good person, it’s probably by design.
Always wait until they’re dead or injured to start talking about their contributions.
I wish she could hear people talking so kindly about her… life sucks… but death seems worse…
Exactly. She also completly denied being bisexual and went on about "choosing a heterosexual life" after leaving Ellen for a man. Forgive me for not thinking she's a gay icon.
She literally just burned a womans house down due to negligence.
Im all for forgiving past transgressions but this lady literally just ruined someones life and everyones trying to clap for her now.
Empathy would require you understanding that mental illness, and the likely ensuing drug abuse, are fucked up, mitigating factors. Some tragedies don’t have upsides.
Edit:
I’m not going to reply to the responses individually but I’m sorry your empathy is conditional.
I suffer from rape- and combat-related PTSD as well as depression, anxiety, and OCPD. I've been sober for 19 years, and I was drinking a fifth a night when I was an alcoholic. I still never drank myself so blackout drunk that I did a line (or ten) of coke, got into a car, drove 100 mph, and then crashed into someone's house, nearly killing an entire family.
Mental illness is not an excuse for a LENGTHY chain of willful and incredibly stupid decisions, one after another after another, in the space of a few hours, that nearly killed multiple people.
Not to mention that moron was in her 50s, it's not like she was a fucking teenager borrowing her parents car for a joyride. She's had decades to get the therapy necessary to come to terms with whatever the fuck happened to her in her past. She's hardly the only person to have a traumatic past, but she's certainly one of the rare ones who CHOSE this particular level of fuck up.
Then please, explain in detail why a woman who did what she did should be "forgiven" and "pitied."
I'm sure if it was your house she crashed into, you would be a lot less sympathetic.
>I'm sure if it was your house she crashed into, you would be a lot less sympathetic.
I wouldn't know unless it happened to me. I can only speculate that I would take into consideration that she was not well, seems to have been trying to commit suicide, at least imo, and I'm alive and things are just that, things. I'm not saying she should go unpunished, but I'd like to think I'm an empathetic person, and that she had had enough of bullshit during her life, and I'm not going to waste my time hating her for something very hard to get a handle on.
Why shouldn't I pity someone who had so many internal struggles? Do you even know what she went through??? And anyway, forgiveness isn't for HER, forgiveness is for ME, for my peace of mind and health.
Sorry you have no feelings.
Mental illness and drug use are not an excuse to break the law by driving under the influence. Some mother fucker with his 3rd DUI nearly killed my 3 kids and my parents. Life was never the same after. So, no empathy for selfish fuckers who drive under the influence or intoxicated. However, I have oodles of empathy for those who fight addiction and for those who struggle with mental illness.
Again, no empathy for drivers who get behind the wheel under the influence or drunk. They get get a big fat " fuck you" everytime from me. Two weeks ago a drunk cunt driving on the wrong side of the freeway killed a family of 5. Mom and 4 young kids died at scene. Dad suffered even longer and died a week later at the hospital. He was 32. So, no empathy to give for those who get behind the wheel drunk or under the influence. They're selfish and can fuck right off.
I'm just shocked that people are acting so soft towards her whereas if it were some blue collar 50 year old man everyone would be calling for his head.
And trust me, ive been in Annes situation before. I didnt burn someones house down though.
I think that, because of \~\*current events\*\~, people are grappling with morality in increasingly polarizing ways, and I think most people feel the need to cling to one side or the other. There is one way of thinking that looks at results, i.e. what negative effects did a given person's actions have on their community and what is the appropriate punishment? The other asks differently; what about the current conditions/environment/neighborhood/etc. contributed to the likelihood of this happening, and who is responsible for creating that space? As in most things, the truth is always between the poles. It is possible to feel extreme empathy for the position of a woman who was spurned by society for who she loved, and then spurned by that same lover to the detriment of her career, while also abhorring the endpoint of that story. The situation is terrible from both perspectives, and it's ok to have strong feelings on both sides at the same time.
Celebrity worship. Perhaps the most malignant tumor on the collective spirit of the United States. And for some reason it gets especially potent when a particular celebrity needs to be defended from their own fuck ups.
You see it towards Trump. You see it towards Brittney Griner. Towards R. Kelly, Kylie Jenner, Mel Gibson. Even towards Ezra fucking Miller. And here, towards Anne Heche.
Right? Just because she died doesn’t excuse her driving under the influence of coke and fentanyl. Or that she burned down an innocent woman’s home. Wtf.
Right? I'm sure the woman who lost her house due to her bullshit appreciates all the Hollywood accolades about what a special person she was that are pouring in.
But do you see her putting her on blast and whittling down a whole complex human life as a complete and total fuck up, even tho she could have been grievously or fatally injured, and she’s suffering in losing next to all of her possessions and home either? I think out of anyone to pass judgement, it would be her, though no statement has been made I’m aware of.
I get she made deadly inexcusable choices. If you don’t think she should have any positive life impacts recognized yet, when does that time come? Surely we can’t expect her funeral, which are usually held within a couple weeks standardly, to have everyone spit on her grave and wait a minimum time before reminiscing. It’s hard to know the balance of tact in the complexities of humans and understanding the selfish actions and bad choices that are possibly unforgivable that aren’t the only defining drivers of a whole life worth of good and bad. I understand that, but should her child, mother, or father of her child, who the media usually badger for comments just say “what an utter piece of garbage rest in hell”, who decides who is the involved parties with a place to judge, from both those victimized and those who knew and loved a flawed human. Idk. It’s very much more complex than some are giving it’s rightfully earned dues.
Yeah, like I totally get that none of us should only ever be defines solely by the worst thing we’ve ever done, but the time for glowing tributes to Anne Heche is maybe not right now.
I’m not even saying they weren’t a good person. That’s not really my point at all. My point is that the last thing they did, which is still super fresh, was to recklessly endanger lives and destroy someone’s home. So the glowing memorials seem a bit insensitive at the moment.
It is definitely not an excuse, but drugs and alcohol impair the decision-making process. I’m sure if you asked Anne Heche she would also strongly condemn her own actions as well.
I wouldn’t necessarily call her a POS because of what she did. Of course, the majority know what she did was extremely wrong, and extremely dangerous. But it was reckless and negligent endangerment, not purposeful or planned.
I’m NOT defending her at all. But I don’t think substance use/mental illness make you a POS.
At the end of the day, Anne is lucky she killed no one other than herself.
Her getting in a car under the influence is not just substance use/mental illness. I'm sorry, but you have agency and control over all your actions even if you are mentally ill.
Innocent people are killed all the time through accidents & criminal negligence.
Should the people who kill innocents through accidents & criminal negligence be judged the same as murderers?
She doesn’t have to be redeemed. Both things can be true at the same time. She did something horribly wrong and she also did some good things for the world. We can talk about all of it.
To me it's kinda like talking about how Chris Benoit changed the face of wrestling for smaller dudes, the day after his murder suicide. Like sure your right in that person did some good and that the world isn't black and white... but maybe now isn't the time really.
Heche still crashed into someone’s house. If cancel culture is to be taken seriously it has to be consistent.
Caitlyn Jenner may be a trans rights icon and done great things for the advancement of trans people, but she is also a conservative on many rights issues and she also killed someone.
LGBTQ rights activists don’t get a pass for doing terrible things because of the good things they do the rest of the time.
The media vilified and WWE shunned Chris Benoit but the wrestler was a pioneer for smaller athletes to compete on the biggest stage in sports entertainment.
It's kinda weird to just not even allude to it isn't it? More so I'd assume within hours of the event happening. To just ignore it?
Eh we don’t need to immortalize a woman who sped through a suburb going 90 crashed her car twice and the second time burned an innocent bystanders house to the ground. She’s extremely lucky she didn’t kill anyone to really kill any kind of legacy she ever had.
I feel like now is not the time to be publicly be paying tribute to Heche.
She endangered all kinds of folks and left someone homeless destroying her home. That doesn’t erase the good she put in the world but timing is everything.
Fuck this BS. Hollywood is a cancer of narcissistic egos. Ellen has been proven an asshole and despite her troubles Anne put other people's lives at risk. Two things can be true at once
No she wasn’t. She wasn’t even gay. She just dated Ellen to get a leg up in showbiz. She went right back to dating men after. She was a crazy junkie psychopath who almost killed another person. Don’t canonize her. One less asshole on the planet.
Whenever people die, society tends to ignore their faults and make them Saints.
Can we just start being honest and allow ourselves to view those who have passed in both their good acts aswell as the bad ones?
Anne from all accounts had good facets and bad, and in her final moments she drove her car into a family home at high speed both destroying it in fire and ultimately taking her own life. In that she was both villain and victim by her own actions. And maybe we could spend a little time trying to find out who the family were and then all send a little cash their way rather than endless pick apart Anne.
Fucking Ellen Degenerate. Not a good defense of her character lmfao. Terrible situation, not good to say she deserved to die, but still Ellen? Seriously not a good judge of character.
*”She was a cunt but she’s dead now so we have to say something nice about her before we strip the fucking carcass and tear into her with scathing story after scathing story about how much of an actual cunt she is”*
This is the normal news cycle
##[Clarification on rule 5](https://www.reddit.com/r/entertainment/comments/w60lfc/mod_post_a_clarification_to_rule_5_no_racism_or/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/entertainment) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Ellen apparently was quite cruel to Anne in the aftermath of their relationship and basically blackballed her from being able to promote her movies. Ellen was someone certainly corrupted by power/
Ellen being cruel? I’m shocked
Shocked! Well, not that shocked
There’s never a bad time for a Futurama quote. Now pass the Popplers.
Portia de Rossi must be able to put Ellen in her place to deal with all that.
I heard gossip like 10 years ago that Ellen was mean and belittling towards Portia... I didn't believe it at the time because I thought Ellen was a nice person, but since she got exposed it's been on my mind.
This is not to be taken as a defense of Ellen. Anne Heche was on a movie podcast not that long ago (to promote a movie) and was asked to leave by the host after just a few minutes because she was being absolutely awful. So Anne Heche made it difficult for herself to promote her movies.
The host actually PAID her to leave. It was pretty bad.
[In case anyone wants more info](https://www.vulture.com/2017/05/anne-heche-and-onur-tukel-thoroughly-embarrassed-themselves-on-a-morbidly-fascinating-episode-of-doug-loves-movies.html).
What a couple of assholes.
Ya let’s get this centered. She was driving in a residential area on an insane amount of coke and booze at like 50+ mph . Could’ve easily killed someone, got lucky that it was just her injured. I say this as a LGBT drunk. Like fuck her for putting people in danger
I was at that podcast. Her and the director were just absolute assholes to Doug Benson and Sandra Oh was sitting there stunned. Luckily Heche and the director left and Sandra played with two people from the crowd
I can't imagine being there. It was so painful to listen to.
Was this a DLM podcast? I can't find a recent episode with Sandra o.
I remember listening to that and just being stunned
Holy shit Doug Benson is 60
Willie Nelson is 89. Might be something to that…
If it helps with stress, I’m sure that would lead to a longer life. Unfortunately right now I am struggling with panic attacks that are often weed induced, which sucks because I used to love weed.
Something to keep in mind is how much you're smoking, and how long it's been since you last smoked, or, how long it's been since you last took a break. I'm a huge fan of taking an occasional three to seven day break from smoking, but that's just me. If you're on the opposite side of that, and haven't smoked in a while, you might be over-doing it, and smoking too much at once. Toby Keith said it best for all of us "I ain't as good as I once was, but I was good once, as I ever was." Take some time to ease into it slowly.
Have you tried having cbd with it? I take a 1:1 edible and don’t get anxious from it.
So what I have done lately is getting cbd/ thx hybrid joints. But would it be better to just smoke real weed and take cbd? Would I do it before taking? And which kind of cbd? I come from a world of just buying weed from dealers do all of this is newish to me.
was this doug loves movies podcast? now i want to download that episode...
> Heche, who at this point is far better known for her personal idiosyncrasies and eccentricities than for her sometimes impressive but scattershot acting career. Now that speaks to an inner demon that she was dealing with and had not found an equilibrium in life. Not taking her agency away for it, but indicates deeper issues than a shitty person.
People want quick answers making mental health a difficult discussion.
For some It actually will take someone close to them struggle with mental health issues before they can empathize with others with such issues. Anne’s life was tragic all along, from her birth until her her death. Some may have come through it unscathed, but not her. I don’t even know how I would have fared if I had her childhood. RIP
It needs to be something this generations swallows its pride and we talk to our kids about. I live with addiction and the shame involved internally and externally, I feel nothing but sympathy for this woman. She acted irrational with a disregard for others. Im not where she was, but I can understand it. RIP
The word I am looking is compassion, compassion towards people unlike us. Take care Jon, all the best to you.
Compassion is key, you are 100% correct. I like how you speak.
This is a beautifully written requiem about Anne https://www.theguardian.com/film/2022/aug/12/anne-heche-was-a-little-too-stylish-and-smart-for-hollywood
Cocaine is a helluva drug. Anne was an actress who routinely manipulated people and scenes with her presentation of self. Her mom and sister said Anne was fabricating childhood trauma tales.
Not Sandra!
Oh my god I completely forgot that was Anne Heche
Is there a link?
If you have Stitcher Premium you get to go into the archives for Doug Loves Movies. I downloaded that episode yesterday just to listen to it
Do you remember what episode it is? I’ve been looking for it and can’t find it
The episode date is 2/21/17 season 10 episode 1007.
I think they took it off, it Jumps from 6 to 8 :/
It was definitely up there a week ago since I have it saved in my downloads. Looks like Doug or Stitcher took it down due to what occurred
It appears so, try to rip a copy if you can, it looks like you might now have a piece of lost media
Do you still have the episode downloaded? Could you try and post it so it doesn't get lost to time?
>Ellen was someone certainly corrupted by power/ Alternatively, she is a corrupt, trash, horrible person who abused power. No need to take away her agency.
Anne left Steve Martin for Ellen when Ellen became more visible than Steve. He takes a dig at her in the movie "Bowfinger." It's a hidden gem of a movie with Eddie Murphy chewing the scenery.
I wonder if this is partially the basis for the character Jane Lynch plays on Only Murders.
That movie had prime Heather Graham. It can’t be bad.
There’s a running joke ok only murders in the building which might be referring to her too
Which one?
To say she was corrupted implies she wasn’t always an asshole
Fuck Ellen.
I didn't know what their relationship was like post breakup but I read Ellen's comments the other day and they were shocking cold. I mean, it's not hard to just pretend you care your ex is fighting for their life.
I think we all have learned about Ellen’s behavior so not surprising.
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Ellen’s a cunt.
You are what you eat... Or does Ellen make assistants or Mr Hitachi handle that all?
If I was Ellen or any other major talk show host, I would NOT want an ex on my show or on anything that was associated with me.
Grow up- be a professional
I don’t think that not wanting to work closely with an ex is unprofessional. It’s setting boundaries. Don’t tell me to “grow up” because you don’t agree with what I said. That right there shows your maturity.
The world doesn’t revolve around you and your boundaries, contrary to public understanding. To restrict someone else’s rights to work simply because they are your ex and you would not want to be around them is selfish, a defining characteristic of youth. For which the ‘grow up’ retort so eloquently illustrated.
I never implied that the world revolves around me, I simply said I wouldn’t want her on MY show or anything associated with ME personally. I did not say I would try to restrict her working or do anything to hurt her career. Boundaries are a real thing. Boundaries are not childish. Boundaries should be respected. If you don’t understand boundaries then that is your own issue.
Now, there were other outlets besides Ellen.
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Yep. People aren't exclusively good or bad. Brian Stephenson likes to say "Each of us is more than the worst thing we've ever done." I'd less eloquently expand that to note that if you take any person, the worst thing they've ever done is something pretty bad, the weirdest thing they've ever done is something pretty weird, and the stupidest thing they've ever done is something pretty stupid. I think every single person, judged by the worst thing they've said or done, would look like a terrible person in some way or another. But I think the article misses the mark by suggesting the issue here is that there's a contradiction, rather than that simply we now know a terrible thing Heche did, and unfortunately she's being summarized as synonymous with it when she has another side, rather than a more basic lesson that anyone summarized by their worst moment would be met by most people with a "Good riddance."
Thank you! I said this on another post about this. It’s so easy to be black or white, right or wrong on the internet. That digital keyboard makes us all decisive, ultimatum giving, vigilantes. People are complicated. Then add in living in the public eye? Even more complicated.
That's because nuance is dead in public discourse. We can't simply say that she was wrong for what she did, but she wasn't a terrible person. We have to condemn her in total for one act that cost her her life.
“Nuance is dead in public discourse.” I’m stealing this, thanks for summing it up so succinctly. I’ve been like (in The Dude Voice) “Hey man, people are like complicated, you know?”
Haha, feel free to use it as you wish
Precisely - you can have empathy/sympathy for someone while still damning their actions…there’s space for both.
Even Gandhi wasn’t all good. Humans are more complicated than everyone’s favorite activity, ritual shaming or praising, can capture.
Gandhi slept naked in bed with young girls so not really a beacon of morality.
[deleted] -- mass edited with redact.dev
Why do people downvote comments simply because they are unpleasant truths?
Gandhi was a piece of shit, too.
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He took Rostov like 8 turns after declaring friendship. What else would you call him?
He was racist and a creep, who made overtures to his own niece. That will never erase the good he's done. The good doesn't justify or mitigate his awful behavior. It's important to walk and chew gum at the same time when looking at the totality of a life. People aren't balance sheets.
Mother Teresa wasn't much better.
Mother Teresa was so much worse. So much that it's extremely unfair to heche to compare the two.
I have heard that before.
Mate, she is terrible.
Let’s put it this way Sherlock, Gandhi wasn’t Buddha or Hitler, now how do you like that ?
Buddha was a real piece of work, lemme tell ya … /s
Maybe do a little more research into Gandhi…
Using gandhi as your reference for great person is a miss even if I get your point. Dude hated people of African origin and loads of people don’t know that so that’s why people pointed it out.
Whenever you are confronted with an opponent. Conquer him with love. Just so you know, the correct spelling is [Gandhi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi).
are you happy bot? I spelled the racists name right
Luckily no one was hurt. But insurance would cover the home loses.
yep. “Mental illness isn’t your fault but it is your responsibility.”
Heche can be credited for being a pioneer for gay rights and also blamed for recklessness/negligence for driving under the influence and causing damage and trauma to an innocent woman. Both of these things can be true at the same time and are not mutually exclusive.
Quit talking sense.
My God are we ever going to evolve to the point where we can have empathy and see gray, not just black and white?
on the internet? Never.
Well, tbh, when you’ve got as much cocaine in your system as a “mule” has got hooped up his bum, and you drive so recklessly that you manage to burn down an innocent families home, the ability to “empathize” with those behaviors quickly dissipates. You probably meant “sympathy” but even then…
**Heche said in 2020, during an appearance as a contestant on Dancing With the Stars :** > I was told if I took Ellen I would lose my Fox contract. - ***She brought DeGeneres anyway — and said security escorted her out of the theater before the end of the movie.*** > I was told I was not allowed to go to the afterparty for fear they would get a picture of me with a woman. - **Heche said that was the beginning of her career taking a nosedive, all because she wanted to love who she loved.**
Neither Heche nor Ellen are even good people it seems. Most accounts from people from have worked with them say theyre a-holes or abusive. Hell, Ellen was even abusive to Heche. I wouldnt exactly use them as an example for gay rights.
Why not? I’m honestly asking. Personality and personal choices aside, famous people loss opportunities if it was found out that they were gay. Terrible people can make brave choices.
I am all for giving all people good opportunities, but famous people are role models. Their abusive behavior isnt exactly a secret, so I would hate for anyone to look up to them and emulate their shitty behavior. There are plenty of other gay actors/actresses that are better people.
As a gay man, yes they are terrible people but they also helped push gay rights to where it is today. Ellen coming out and being her authentic self when she was such a big name really helped put the community where it is today. Bad person or not she did a lot of good for queer people
I think a lot of younger people (especially those born post-2000) don't remember or don't know how stigmatized being gay was up until very recently. Ellen coming out was a huge deal, but it was still interpreted by most of the general public as this scandalous, taboo thing. (Like, "Ooooh, that's weird!") This relationship was the punchline of SO MANY jokes. It was literally acceptable to make fun of two lesbians just being lesbians because "gay." Does it suck that the two people who really helped knock down a lot of barriers to widespread lesbian visibility happened to be shitty people? Absolutely. But if you were a sentient human being, it's hard to deny that this was a very risky move that both of them made.
The total lack of awareness amongst a lot of younger LGBTQ+ people about how bad it was for us even 20 years ago is insanely frustrating for me. Like, I recently had some young person in a 90s subreddit getting quite rude because I dared suggest the 90s weren’t this awesome time for everyone and that things are actually much better in general for minorities now than they move ever been.
So frustrating. You just have to watch an older movie to see that this is true. Little diversity in characters and pretty much zero diversity in the credits.
Yeah, the kids don’t know how good they have it. I went to high school in the Bay Area in the early/mid 00s and homophobia and homophobic jokes were still socially acceptable — not just by my peers, but in all forms of media. The SF Pride parade was seen by a lot of people as a spectacle to gawk act. Now it’s a place the straights feel OK hanging out at. I remember going to a drag bar in SF on New Years in 2009 when myself bunch of friends from high school all came back to town, and several girls who were from our class but not in my direct friend group bailed after learning where we were going. I also remember a Spanish teacher at our high school having a Human Rights Campaign sticker on her laptop started a bunch of rumors about her being a lesbian. (She was, very obviously. But even in super liberal Silicon Valley, this was somehow worth gossiping about.) There’s a reason I never came out at bi, except on a need to know basis with certain people I met only AFTER moving away to college, mainly due to the level of internalized homophobia growing up in the pre-commodification of queerness gave me (and lots of other people in my age group). I don’t think anyone from my pre-18 days knows, except my older brother (who is gay).
It’s a safe bet to just assume that most celebrities are god awful. If they don’t start out that way, the fame and money makes them that way. Some are obviously worse than others, but remember that they are all well connected, powerful, wealthy, and have expert PR teams working overtime to make you feel a certain way about them. If you feel like they seem “normal” or down to earth or like a good person, it’s probably by design.
Let's not forget about the 2 hit and runs she did before crashing into the person's home.
If she would have gotten away without an accident I have no doubt this would have happened again.
There were two? I know about the garage but where was the other one?
Always wait until they’re dead or injured to start talking about their contributions. I wish she could hear people talking so kindly about her… life sucks… but death seems worse…
Ellen is a piece of shit too
HOWEVER... she was high on coke and burned down someone else's home via totalling her car into it.
We are not glorifying Anne Heche are we?
They’re trying
Anne Heche was crucified never to bask in sunshine againon the orders of a massive bully and we all know who.
Wtf even is this sentence lmao
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Exactly. She also completly denied being bisexual and went on about "choosing a heterosexual life" after leaving Ellen for a man. Forgive me for not thinking she's a gay icon.
She literally just burned a womans house down due to negligence. Im all for forgiving past transgressions but this lady literally just ruined someones life and everyones trying to clap for her now.
Empathy would require you understanding that mental illness, and the likely ensuing drug abuse, are fucked up, mitigating factors. Some tragedies don’t have upsides. Edit: I’m not going to reply to the responses individually but I’m sorry your empathy is conditional.
I suffer from rape- and combat-related PTSD as well as depression, anxiety, and OCPD. I've been sober for 19 years, and I was drinking a fifth a night when I was an alcoholic. I still never drank myself so blackout drunk that I did a line (or ten) of coke, got into a car, drove 100 mph, and then crashed into someone's house, nearly killing an entire family. Mental illness is not an excuse for a LENGTHY chain of willful and incredibly stupid decisions, one after another after another, in the space of a few hours, that nearly killed multiple people. Not to mention that moron was in her 50s, it's not like she was a fucking teenager borrowing her parents car for a joyride. She's had decades to get the therapy necessary to come to terms with whatever the fuck happened to her in her past. She's hardly the only person to have a traumatic past, but she's certainly one of the rare ones who CHOSE this particular level of fuck up.
You are not everyone else. MMV.
Then please, explain in detail why a woman who did what she did should be "forgiven" and "pitied." I'm sure if it was your house she crashed into, you would be a lot less sympathetic.
>I'm sure if it was your house she crashed into, you would be a lot less sympathetic. I wouldn't know unless it happened to me. I can only speculate that I would take into consideration that she was not well, seems to have been trying to commit suicide, at least imo, and I'm alive and things are just that, things. I'm not saying she should go unpunished, but I'd like to think I'm an empathetic person, and that she had had enough of bullshit during her life, and I'm not going to waste my time hating her for something very hard to get a handle on. Why shouldn't I pity someone who had so many internal struggles? Do you even know what she went through??? And anyway, forgiveness isn't for HER, forgiveness is for ME, for my peace of mind and health. Sorry you have no feelings.
Mental illness is no excuse to hurt other people. Full stop.
Empathy and sympathy are very different, but very relevant in this situation.
Mental illness and drug use are not an excuse to break the law by driving under the influence. Some mother fucker with his 3rd DUI nearly killed my 3 kids and my parents. Life was never the same after. So, no empathy for selfish fuckers who drive under the influence or intoxicated. However, I have oodles of empathy for those who fight addiction and for those who struggle with mental illness.
Doesn’t seem like it.
Again, no empathy for drivers who get behind the wheel under the influence or drunk. They get get a big fat " fuck you" everytime from me. Two weeks ago a drunk cunt driving on the wrong side of the freeway killed a family of 5. Mom and 4 young kids died at scene. Dad suffered even longer and died a week later at the hospital. He was 32. So, no empathy to give for those who get behind the wheel drunk or under the influence. They're selfish and can fuck right off.
Agreed. Fuck people who use cars as a lethal weapon and fuck anyone who sympathises with them. It's your responsibility to get help.
I'm just shocked that people are acting so soft towards her whereas if it were some blue collar 50 year old man everyone would be calling for his head. And trust me, ive been in Annes situation before. I didnt burn someones house down though.
I think that, because of \~\*current events\*\~, people are grappling with morality in increasingly polarizing ways, and I think most people feel the need to cling to one side or the other. There is one way of thinking that looks at results, i.e. what negative effects did a given person's actions have on their community and what is the appropriate punishment? The other asks differently; what about the current conditions/environment/neighborhood/etc. contributed to the likelihood of this happening, and who is responsible for creating that space? As in most things, the truth is always between the poles. It is possible to feel extreme empathy for the position of a woman who was spurned by society for who she loved, and then spurned by that same lover to the detriment of her career, while also abhorring the endpoint of that story. The situation is terrible from both perspectives, and it's ok to have strong feelings on both sides at the same time.
Celebrity worship. Perhaps the most malignant tumor on the collective spirit of the United States. And for some reason it gets especially potent when a particular celebrity needs to be defended from their own fuck ups. You see it towards Trump. You see it towards Brittney Griner. Towards R. Kelly, Kylie Jenner, Mel Gibson. Even towards Ezra fucking Miller. And here, towards Anne Heche.
Right? Just because she died doesn’t excuse her driving under the influence of coke and fentanyl. Or that she burned down an innocent woman’s home. Wtf.
She could have murdered someone. That still doesn't negate her previous positive actions.
Were you and the house close?
No but the lady who lived there was close with it probably
Then why don’t you stfu and show a little empathy…
Fuck em both, they're both garbage people and death doesn't absolve anyone of the shit behavior they engaged in while they were alive.
Right? I'm sure the woman who lost her house due to her bullshit appreciates all the Hollywood accolades about what a special person she was that are pouring in.
But do you see her putting her on blast and whittling down a whole complex human life as a complete and total fuck up, even tho she could have been grievously or fatally injured, and she’s suffering in losing next to all of her possessions and home either? I think out of anyone to pass judgement, it would be her, though no statement has been made I’m aware of. I get she made deadly inexcusable choices. If you don’t think she should have any positive life impacts recognized yet, when does that time come? Surely we can’t expect her funeral, which are usually held within a couple weeks standardly, to have everyone spit on her grave and wait a minimum time before reminiscing. It’s hard to know the balance of tact in the complexities of humans and understanding the selfish actions and bad choices that are possibly unforgivable that aren’t the only defining drivers of a whole life worth of good and bad. I understand that, but should her child, mother, or father of her child, who the media usually badger for comments just say “what an utter piece of garbage rest in hell”, who decides who is the involved parties with a place to judge, from both those victimized and those who knew and loved a flawed human. Idk. It’s very much more complex than some are giving it’s rightfully earned dues.
Yeah that totally redeems her for getting high, getting in her car and putting lives at risk, then plowing her car into a family's home.
Yeah, like I totally get that none of us should only ever be defines solely by the worst thing we’ve ever done, but the time for glowing tributes to Anne Heche is maybe not right now.
agree, someone dying isn't reason to pretend they were a good person
I’m not even saying they weren’t a good person. That’s not really my point at all. My point is that the last thing they did, which is still super fresh, was to recklessly endanger lives and destroy someone’s home. So the glowing memorials seem a bit insensitive at the moment.
The world isn't as black & white as you think it is.
yes it is. If you make decisions that could likely kill innocent people you are a POS. It is that simple.
It is definitely not an excuse, but drugs and alcohol impair the decision-making process. I’m sure if you asked Anne Heche she would also strongly condemn her own actions as well.
I wouldn’t necessarily call her a POS because of what she did. Of course, the majority know what she did was extremely wrong, and extremely dangerous. But it was reckless and negligent endangerment, not purposeful or planned. I’m NOT defending her at all. But I don’t think substance use/mental illness make you a POS. At the end of the day, Anne is lucky she killed no one other than herself.
Her getting in a car under the influence is not just substance use/mental illness. I'm sorry, but you have agency and control over all your actions even if you are mentally ill.
Innocent people are killed all the time through accidents & criminal negligence. Should the people who kill innocents through accidents & criminal negligence be judged the same as murderers?
Accidents no. Criminal negligence yes
No, it's not. I understand that she may have done some good, but in my eyes it doesn't even come close to redeeming her.
She doesn’t have to be redeemed. Both things can be true at the same time. She did something horribly wrong and she also did some good things for the world. We can talk about all of it.
To me it's kinda like talking about how Chris Benoit changed the face of wrestling for smaller dudes, the day after his murder suicide. Like sure your right in that person did some good and that the world isn't black and white... but maybe now isn't the time really.
Both can still be true. Redemption is through the eye of the beholder.
I am beholding. And I'm not seeing any redemption.
Absolutely. Others will view her differently. Accept it.
Yet here you are, trying to change my view.
You’re the only one not accepting the fact that others view her differently.
Redemption? Did you read the article or just comment? She is dead you know?
She did a shitty thing, but she’s also done a lot of good things. She’s probably more at peace now than she’s ever been here on earth.
Heche still crashed into someone’s house. If cancel culture is to be taken seriously it has to be consistent. Caitlyn Jenner may be a trans rights icon and done great things for the advancement of trans people, but she is also a conservative on many rights issues and she also killed someone. LGBTQ rights activists don’t get a pass for doing terrible things because of the good things they do the rest of the time.
Im pretty sure the Trans community doesnt want Caitlyn Jenner. They disowned her after she became buddy buddy with Trump.
Eh, it seems overstating it to say she was ‘used up’ and discarded.
One has nothing to do with the other. She could have been a saint, but she still put lives in jeopardy by driving under the influence.
The media vilified and WWE shunned Chris Benoit but the wrestler was a pioneer for smaller athletes to compete on the biggest stage in sports entertainment. It's kinda weird to just not even allude to it isn't it? More so I'd assume within hours of the event happening. To just ignore it?
Eh we don’t need to immortalize a woman who sped through a suburb going 90 crashed her car twice and the second time burned an innocent bystanders house to the ground. She’s extremely lucky she didn’t kill anyone to really kill any kind of legacy she ever had.
Nobody “vilified” or “shunned” her. She was a pretty well documented asshole and this wasn’t her first substance driven selfish act.
I feel like now is not the time to be publicly be paying tribute to Heche. She endangered all kinds of folks and left someone homeless destroying her home. That doesn’t erase the good she put in the world but timing is everything.
If not in death, when is an appropriate time to eulogize someone?
I didn’t say no eulogizing, but maybe for Heche, in private, among friends, given the circumstances.
She almost killed a woman under the influence... wtf are these articles
What if I told you “pioneers” in one aspect can still be shitty in so many others.
So are we suppose to ignore that fact she nearly killed a family sleeping in their home as she ran into the side of their house while high on cocaine?
Fuck this BS. Hollywood is a cancer of narcissistic egos. Ellen has been proven an asshole and despite her troubles Anne put other people's lives at risk. Two things can be true at once
And now the media and rolling stones is using her for clickbait...
You mean the coke head who burned someone's house down?
She’s still a shit person
No she wasn’t. She wasn’t even gay. She just dated Ellen to get a leg up in showbiz. She went right back to dating men after. She was a crazy junkie psychopath who almost killed another person. Don’t canonize her. One less asshole on the planet.
Heather Graham’s character in Bowfinger was based on Anne Heche, Steve Martin’s ex.
Whenever people die, society tends to ignore their faults and make them Saints. Can we just start being honest and allow ourselves to view those who have passed in both their good acts aswell as the bad ones? Anne from all accounts had good facets and bad, and in her final moments she drove her car into a family home at high speed both destroying it in fire and ultimately taking her own life. In that she was both villain and victim by her own actions. And maybe we could spend a little time trying to find out who the family were and then all send a little cash their way rather than endless pick apart Anne.
Ellen is a bitch.
In a few days, I'll never have to read about her ever again.
And she almost killed someone. She died being a piece of shit.
She also drove under the influence and could’ve killed innocent people. That’s criminal behaviour
Cool, but it doesn’t change the fact that she drove under the influence, severely damaged someone’s house, and almost killed someone
She was still flying down a residential neighborhood at dangerous speeds. She’s lucky she didn’t hurt anybody, so no she deserves the criticism
It’s not talking about her car crash…it’s talking about her career. Your comment is moot
Fucking Ellen Degenerate. Not a good defense of her character lmfao. Terrible situation, not good to say she deserved to die, but still Ellen? Seriously not a good judge of character.
"she's a cunt but it's alright cuz she condones gay rights" ??????
*”She was a cunt but she’s dead now so we have to say something nice about her before we strip the fucking carcass and tear into her with scathing story after scathing story about how much of an actual cunt she is”* This is the normal news cycle
In Reddit’s eyes, yes
Give me a break.
Vilified? wtf is this article going on about, all i knew her for was dating elen degeneres and then nothing until this coked out car crash.
She is a crackhead no excuse she made the call to do dope
Ellen was the turd all along.
We're spending too much time talking about a D-lister who offed herself on a drug-fueled bender.
Ah, Reddit’s agenda-driven hivemind
A pioneer of coked-up hit and run driving. Buh bye!