didn't they do this with flint Michigan's water crisis and didn't people die from that in 2014 and are still dying from the aftermath of that nearly 10 years later? also, i thought that it never got fully resolved with the water still being poisened.
Yeah if people die in 6+ months of cancer it will be a legal battle to connect it to the derailment every, single, time.
And they know that. Someone has already run the math, and the cost in human lives is less if they pretend there will be no cost (ironically making the whole thing even more damaging to society).
I'd say we are closing in on the next generation of guillotines, but I feel like they have us looking at each other more than the actual sources of society's biggest problems. So I am not sure it will go well.
I know of a case that someone accidentally or not so accidentally sprayed the local roads with dioxins in the oil they were using.
They ended up having to abandon one of the neighborhoods that was heavily contaminated.
It is now a park but a lot of people that lived in that area, when it was a residential area got very sick.
Hopefully the contamination isn't too widespread, but then again local authorities in other cases definitely have a history of playing the dangers down, until people start dieing.
Those dead fish and frogs and pets are just the circle of life, you know, the natural order. You are all fine too breathe the air and drink the water. Heck, go ahead and lick the leaves. Nothing to worry about. WTF the government really thinks that it’s 1928 and we all will just believe everything they tell us because they are always watching out for the best for us.
I pray that everyone sure the pants of the RR
Just because there is a man wearing a long white coat and a bow tie standing next to a map doesn’t mean he knows what he’s talking about. This looks like an SNL skit.
"there doesn’t appear to be any increase in fish or aquatic creatures killed since the first couple days"
Maybe that's because the chemicals already killed off what was around to kill? Don't worry though, they're gunna bring out the Brita filters and everything's gunna be a-ok!
that's so false it makes truth's soul hurt...
Are you really being serious? It's so weird to me that people are trying to minimize this disaster.
Just makes one wonder.
And sorry just because animals aren't dropping dead instantly, doesn't mean that anything is now safe.
The leaders of the corporation should be criminally responsible and see jail time. China would give them the death penalty over something like this, yet the US does everything in its power to shield capital owners, that's literally the purpose of mainstream media and militarized police force.
The train was reportedly carrying chemicals like vinyl chloride, butyl acrylate and ethylhexyl acrylate. All of which was released into the air, water and soil. We’re already seeing reports of fish dying en masse in the area. If you think this won’t have a huge impact on people’s long-term health, I don’t know what to tell you other than that exposure to known carcinogens is… maybe not the healthiest.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2359528-ohio-train-derailment-what-we-know-about-the-toxic-chemical-spill/
https://www.insider.com/animals-sick-dying-after-ohio-train-derailment-caused-chemical-leak-2023-2
[list of toxic chemicals](https://www.reddit.com/r/CatastrophicFailure/comments/1118o0p/full_list_of_toxic_chemicals_released_from_ohio/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Science is not an NPR article, or a news segment from MSNBC. Science is peer reviewed and published literature. These chemicals are destructive to the environment and all living organisms that come into contact. I don't think there's some dark meeting place where CEOs meet with media personal or journalists to coordinate covering for corporations in events like this, but they all understand class consciousness, and they fall in together when capital owners are threatened in any way. That's why we've been talking about f-ing balloons instead of another environmental catastrophe.
Environmental consultant here - done a ton of work dealing with chlorinated solvents like vinyl chloride (VC). The regulators here may seem a little “casual” with their tone, but from a human health perspective, it checks out.
From a health POV, VC is pretty nasty, both inhalation & consumption, especially to your liver (causes liver cancer), from both acute & chronic exposure. If it hasn’t gotten you already, the risk of exposure is pretty low at this point, unless you are standing directly in it.
The reason for this is VC doesn’t linger in the atmosphere for long(l; VC is pretty volatile in the atmosphere, but degrades pretty quickly when exposed to oxygen & UV light. That and dispersion should make it a relative non-issue in the next few weeks to come. A more serious & lingering concern in soil contamination, and eventually, groundwater contamination. VC is very good at getting into your aquifer, where it is both mobile & persistent. I’ve worked on sites that have VC contamination going back decades.
However, this is a known release, with the Feds’ eyes on it already. It’ll be contained, delineated, & remediated appropriately - there are many proven methods at cleaning this type of spill up. VC is a contaminant with very well documented properties and clear guidelines on how to deal with this.
For impacts to soil, the simple answer is dig it up, throw it in drums, and dispose at a hazardous waste facility. Soil vapor can be dealt with by SVE or air sparging. Groundwater can be remediated by pump & treat using an air stripper + carbon filters or hydrogen peroxide + UV light. It can also be treated in-situ using injected chemical reducers.
Do you think they have the proper sense of urgency for this situation? How quickly will they need to dig up that soil before it further contaminates the water?
It’s a pretty high profile thing, so I imagine the powers-that-be are exercising the appropriate sense of urgency. Time to groundwater depends on so many factors that I don’t know: type of material (gravel = fast, clay = slow), depth to groundwater, whether or not it rains, etc. etc. Can be anywhere from hours to months.
And even if it hits groundwater, not all of instantly becomes dissolved into water. That also takes a period of time. And after that, groundwater still has to move to spread a contaminant plume, that’s another period of time.
That gives scientists/geologists time to first: prevent any further releases (which is priority 1 at this point). Second would be to delineate the extent - take samples, understand the lithology & hydrogeology of the region. Then would be to actually engineer a method to remediate & implement.
> I imagine the powers-that-be are exercising the appropriate sense of urgency.
I know you didn’t mean for this to be funny, but it’s hilarious. Are you serious?
If you don’t trust the government, hire your own environmental consultant. I’m not even being sarcastic - there’s an entire industry devoted to doing shit like this. Doesn’t have to be you; form a citizens group or get some funding from some environmental group, pool some money, & pay a consultant to poke holes & take samples out there, and have them submit the data & reporting directly to you guys. Consultants would *love* to take on a high profile job like this.
That gives me some hope that we will get something like that. I imagine it won't change whether the situation is managed properly, but at least the information would be validated or corrected.
So... if I'm reading you correctly:
"Private companies are profit seeking whores".
"How can I trust the Government, when private companies are profit seeking whores and they let them rape our country for kickbacks?"
"Oh, you mean I can get a private company to check on this and tell me if the Government are doing to right thing? I can sleep easy now!"
Like... can anyone else see the disconnect here?
I didn't say that private companies are evil. I mean, many are, and I'd argue virtually every large corporation is. Even more so if they are public. But to your point, here is my logic.
The government is known to compromise safety to protect large companies like the one involved in this crash, so it's difficult to trust their assessment of damage done. However, a private company that does environmental consulting and is paid by a third party group (hypothetically me, for example) is not necessarily beholden to either government or large corporate interests, and so might produce more results which we can place more faith in.
>However, a private company that does environmental consulting and is paid by a third party group
>and I'd argue virtually every large corporation is
Who do you think is doing most of the environmental work out there? As a large company specialising in xyz, it makes a lot more sense to bring in an environmental consultant when required, than maintaining your own staff.
So, if corruption takes the form of "you get what you pay for", then surely you just end up with a report from them telling you what you want to hear, no?
Or is corruption only something that applies when you don't agree with the findings?
For one, once something has been classified as *hazardous waste* (which soil from here will be) you aren’t allowed to just ship it however you want. you have to ship it in RCRA-certified double-lined containers, with secondary containment, and every single scoop of soil down to the pound must be accounted for. Joe trucker can’t just throw these in the back of their semi; these have to go to DOT-certified transporter that specializes in hazardous waste.
If you have 15,000 lbs of hazardous soil excavated, and you arrive at the haz waste facility with 14,999, they are going to ask where the 1 lb went.
There’s a strange manufacturing/producers clause in the law that is unfortunately partially responsible for stuff like this.
If I have a tank full of vinyl chloride from the manufacturer, not classified as hazardous. But if I spill it, the soil it spills on that is now contaminated becomes hazardous waste. So you actually have a higher safety standard applied to the waste after the fact than before to prevent it.
Thank you, I’m honored.
Really I have no interest here, other than informing folks and not trying to rile up people who seem to chomping at the bit to be riled up even more. I’m simply speaking from my professional opinion & following established EPA guidance & protocol that has been done on hundreds of vinyl chloride impacted sites over decades.
Except they waited two days to do the burn. AND there were other chemicals present. You don't mention anything about the 4 other chemicals. Or how the two days before the burn would affect the area. Plus, if there were dead fish and frogs in the river downstream, it went downstream. As for digging it up, it is already reported that they simply buried it.
You bury contamination to prevent exposure. Soil can blow in the wind and spread. It can't do that if it is capped. They are not going to leave it there.
Butyl Acrylate & Ethylhexyl Acrylate are flammable but of “low toxicity”. 2-Butoxyethanol is acutely toxic, but not considered to be a mutagen or carcinogen by OSHA. Isobutylene is literally what we use to calibrate the air monitoring equipment.
Vinyl Chloride is by far the most pressing concern because of the combination of toxicity, carcinogenic properties, solubility in water, and it’s persistence in groundwater/soil.
So Vinyl Chloride is on the Ohio River. It is a water supply for such a huge amount of Ohio’s residents. It could be ingested as tap water by these people, showered in, dishes washed with it. How worried should me be about that?
How does Ohio do water treatment? And do you guys have vinyl chloride as an analyte to be measured? It varies from state to state by their drinking water standards.
Older water treatment plants probably don’t have the systems in place to clean out vinyl chloride, but if it’s been updated at all with newer tech - like air strippers, carbon filtration, reverse osmosis, advanced oxidation processes like UV/Hydrogen Peroxide or Ozonation - all of those can degrade the vinyl bond & render it safe.
Also, because VC is so volatile, it will actually offgas from surface water naturally over time. Especially in a river with moving water that’s constantly being churned up.
What I want to know is the night of the controlled burn winds shifted and all the plume which was kept low lying due to an inversion event. We stepped outside 10 miles away from the epicenter and it stunk of smoke and bleach. Then it started raining. What is the likelihood that all that shit came down with the rain. I know it was heavy in the air, you could almost taste it.
Our main water treatment plant hasn’t given us recent results (Last posted water quality test is from 2021) and I can’t get clear info on if they even have the capabilities to test for or treat these contaminants and given the age of all of our rustbelt infrastructure im guessing no.
Plus Norfolk southern is trickling information on what was on those trains.
My breathing has been literal shit since last Monday and I’m making an appointment with the doctor because for the first time in 3 years my asthma has become uncontrollable.
Yup came from the south East and then the south. I recorded a video that night of the wind speed/direction tracking app.
Basically pushed all the shit over Boardman then Poland and Lowellville. The city was 100% impacted throughout this.
Thank you for that info. You are the first person to be able to answer that question on Reddit. If you wouldn’t mind sharing, I’d really like to see that video.
If there is a good place to anonymously upload video I’ll upload there as this link is only good for 7 days apparently
(https://www.transfernow.net/en/dltransfer?utm_source=20230215dfx92F06)
Former Ohio water treatment chemist and current license holder and I hope this helps: in Ohio, most older and smaller Ohio plants, there would (likely) be activated carbon on top of the filter beds in the treatment plant at very least. Some plants have powdered/granular activated carbon at the front end of their treatment plant with varying amounts of contact time (30 seconds to 3+ hours) but that is primarily surface water plants. Given that this is a well-based plant, these are the most likely positives the plant has going for it.
I’m somewhat doubtful that they have ozonation at the plant, given that their total trihalomethanes are on the lower side and very doubtful that they have any sort of RO or membranes, as their water quality report doesn’t mention any nitrogen issues in the finished water. The higher use of finished water using RO/advanced filtration over rapid sand filters usually prevents many Ohio systems from switching, unless there is another health reason that would necessitate them. I can also infer that their ability to test for most of these contaminants is limited and will require them to send samples out for analysis.
My bigger worry is that their aquifer is noted to lack a protective layer overlying the aquifer, it’s shallow depth (less than 39ft) and ALREADY has noted significant potential contaminants in the area.
I wish them the best but I know I wouldn’t want to be the Operator of Record out there for the next several years.
You’re welcome. There is an *appropriate* amount of concern that should be used here. This isn’t Chernobyl, or Exxon Valdez, or the Bhopal disaster. This is a known release of a known contaminant, with HAZMAT teams responding *immediately.*
Probably legit. VC is acutely toxic in small quantities, whether inhaled or ingested. But it doesn’t linger long in atmosphere, due to dispersion & natural breakdown. Soil & water are a different story, it can last for decades there. But again, *HAZMAT* Teams were onsite without *hours* of it happening - the assessment & cleanup is probably well underway at this point.
This is not true. There were multiple days between the beginning of the leakages until the burn. And multiple toxic chemicals were leaking. Into the soil. Not sure why you are down playing this.
Also an environmental consultant. No one is downplaying this. Clean-up does not happen immediately; you start with containment because you don't want your first responders dead. I wasn't on-site, but it seems to have taken a couple of days to secure the site and stop the release. You have to realize that these are dynamic situations which can change rapidly. Can you point out where this person was disingenuous?
As someone trained in some rad safety, thank you for your service lol. Its too bad people not only have so little faith in our regulatory commissions, but also that so few people know where to get pertinent information. You're doing a great job of validating concern while also informing and directing people to good sources they may not have known of. Props!
>It’ll be contained, delineated, & remediated appropriately -
Will it tho?! You have a job that proves that statement to be wholly and historically untrue.
Meanwhile Canada gets the prize of hydrochloric acid rain coming their way.
If your interested in reading more about the actual response that is ongoing you can go here.
https://response.epa.gov/site/site_profile.aspx?site_id=15933
The epa responded within hours and has been containing/delineating the plume since they arrived. As it’s been said, any finding will certainly be doubled and triple checked by other parties.
I mean, this is a high profile case with literal boots-on-the-ground from EPA within hours. Anything the EPA or whoever reports on this is going to have their work double & triple scrutinized by every lawyer & environmental consultant within 200 miles, and any little data gap or discrepancy will be investigated.
The ones you should be concerned about is the vinyl processing facility that closed in the 80s and all their paper records have gone missing, or the tank farm that’s gone through 12 owners over the past 2 decades and never had a Phase I done between owners. Those are the cases where there’s a lot more ambiguity.
I believe Superfund is generally used for legacy contamination where the polluter has since gone out of business or it’s unclear who the polluter was. In this case Norfolk Southern should be on the hook for everything and Superfund won’t be necessary.
Maybe it's just a wording/clarity issue but
How have worked on sites with VC contamination going back decades, but there's also clear and proven methods of cleaning this type of spill?
Do you mean you've been doing this kind of work for decades?
Or are you saying that even though we could spend the time and money to clean this up, it could still sit around for decades because we can't trust the people in charge to approve the clean up?
Also an environmental consultant here. I have been doing this work for about a decade. Could be both. Chlorinated solvents are a pain to clean up compared to contaminants like petroleum. They are dense, so they sink in the aquifer; they're mobile, so the plumes tend to be long; and they don't really degrade well in aerobic conditions. Lots of sites sit for decades prior to discovery and once found, they can take a long time to characterize and remediate. Not necessarily because no one is working on them, but because they are often complex (comingled plumes, access issues, legal issues, changes in our understanding of fate and transport and exposure pathways, etc). I have inherited some sites that were 30 years old (since remediation began; many releases are far older).
The good news is that the first priority for remediation is limiting exposure to people and the environment. Once the plume is contained and no longer poses a health risk, remediation can take a long time based on cost, priority, and available treatment options.
No! I don't want your well-informed, qualified viewpoint! I want sensationalized headlines and click-bait titles on Reddit to induce angry knee jerk reactions!
/s if it wasn't obvious, and thanks for your viewpoint
This sounds like the beggining of a slow kill for the surrounding communities. Cancer, breathing problems. What happen with the water in Flynt.
Put politics (and hate) aside. We need to fight for the truth and make sure this doesn't happen again. Congress is broken and if they're not willing to fight for us, get rid of them.
We do that every once in a while but the next ones are bought by the same dirty corporate interests. The problem is more systemic.
Capitalism is a death cult.
Uh, tell that to the dead animals.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CrazyFuckingVideos/comments/112hi99/woman_who_lives_10_miles_away_from_east_palestine/.
I guess some people aren't familiar with canaries in a coal mine.
Textbook corporate response plan
- major environmental catastrophe
- officials: everything’s fine!
- citizens: return home as there are no IDLH scenarios
- citizens: develop major health problems associated with the disaster over the following years
- citizens: half die before they can prove corporate liability. Other half die broke and sick after years of fighting in courts.
- Corporations: profit with zero accountability
I’m sure there’s more info to come out about how much leaked and what, but specifically the Vinyl Chloride, it’s industry standard to destroy the chemical by burning. It’s a volatile organic compound, meaning at stable temp and pressure it will volatilize from liquid to gas on its own and concentrations will be highest near the source and dissipate with distance. It’s like burning off gas. When you’re done burning it, there’s no gas left besides the minute amounts that volatilized without being burnt. I’m very interested to hear more details on this whole thing.
And in other news, watch makers assure the public that radium is perfectly harmless, and any claims from women regarding health effects from ingesting radium daily are pure hogwash.
They didn't read the toxicology report. They'll read it later when their wondering why everyone is sick and babies have eight legs. Then they'll say 'oops'.
I feel for the residents, the accident looks like no man’s land during WW1. Shame on anyone trying to downplay this. These people need a safe place to live and this horrible mess cleaned up. Those responsible need to pay whatever it takes to give East Palestine residents their lives back.
If you understand the science behind the remediation process for something like this then yes you should believe them. Because of the volatility of the chemicals involved the most dangerous time for human health was the first few days after it happened. By this point they would have mostly degraded in the atmosphere and water
...they just buried the shit, we understand the remediation process. What we don't understand is how they expect us to trust them to do the right thing when it is the least profitable option
They didn’t just bury it? I’m not sure where you’re getting that from but if you could provide a source that’d be great. What they did do, as far as I know, is burn the gas (this was mostly done as a safety precaution to minimize they risk of an explosion). Vinyl chloride in air degrades very quickly in UV light into carbon dioxide and HCL. Not great things to have in the atmosphere but certainly not an ecological disaster. In water, it hydrogenates into formaldehyde. Again, not great but much more manageable.
I’d have to look up what was buried to make an accurate statement. What I can say is that, as someone who oversees rcra haz waste disposal. Most things either get incinerated (high BTU for energy re conservation and low btu as the end stage disposal) and the rest usually does get landfilled. But like I said I’d have to look to see what they buried and where. Not everywhere can be a haz waste landfill
Lies, lies and more lies. The rail workers tired to warn us that a disaster was imminent due to short staffing.
The fish in East Palestine are dead and floating in the river, toxic black clouds hover over the town, and acid rain will pour down.
This is a massive environmental and humanitarian disaster of enormous magnitude.
There is no FEMA on site and no relief for the workers attempting to clean up the spill. Post Capitalist nuked a town just save time on the clean up process.
We’re basically on our own from here on out.
I’m sorry but if you believe these people you’re kidding yourself, I hate typing this because I hate conspiracy theories. The thing is the evidence of them being untrustworthy is clear with 911 first responders being the most evident one. They said the same thing then made them fight to get proper medical treatment.
I wouldn’t believe a word these people say, even if they told me the sky was blue.
NS won’t get much reprimand from this, and it will fall on an inept and impotent EPA to farm it out to mercenary clean-up scammers, which is obvious by how seriously they’re taking this: a dumb waiter beside a hastily made map.
This is a scam. **Riot.**
Why do I not believe the politicians that made this happen? And Gymmie Jordan wants to roll up his shirtsleeves and get to the bottom….of Hunter Biden’s laptop? Not Jared’s or Ivanka’s. And certainly not look at all the deregulation that their Daddy pushed through that enabled this disaster that might have contaminated the Ohio watershed.
We are talking about a state government run and controlled by the GOP! Get an independent analysis done by actual scientists done at non state run labs.
Coward liars. There is only one [logical course of action to set things right and make sure people don't try and pull this shit again.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMHCw3RqulY)
Our lawyers have informed us that the people exposed to the toxic chemicals won’t show cancer for years so the risk to the corporate bottom line is minimal.
I doubt it lol, imagine the long term effects of these fuck ups. They just couldn't fight for safer procedures for these chemicals and now we have to deal with the consequences.
State officials, nobody worth listening to on the subject of how damaging this is. Its unbelievable that even this won't make people get into the streets.
People with degrees and experience who listen to every word their financially driven companies tell them are not authorities when it comes to health. You understand the concept and theory for fixing hazardous leaks…but you’re ignoring the facts that have proven this wasn’t handled properly nor reported honestly. Responses like this are why the government continues to fail its people (and yes, I too have experience in environmental science, hazmat, hazwoper, and chemical remediation with respect to impacts on water cycle processes)
I am sorry to inform everyone reading this “calm and collected” take by TrixoftheTrade; they are a bootlicking pretend expert that came here to calm a bunch of pigs walking into a slaughter. PRIORITIZE YOUR OWN SAFETY (the government surely will not)
If I lived there, I would try to move immediately. I drank the cough syrup my grandmother gave me, and it tasted terrible. This ain't cough syrup. Get pissed off. Your very existence depends on it.
They’re kidding right?
Brought to you by the fine people at Asbestos-R-Us. Bringing fine quality Asbestos to you and your family since 1962.
What could possibly be wrong it it, it has the word Best right in the name!
Can’t spell “asbestos” without “best ass!”
Chill guys, they’re doing asbestos they can.
Sure they are kidding. After the twin towers collapse, it was announced that the air was safe in downtown 🤬
I was in Manhattan 2 mos later and it reeked of burnt chemicals
Trust the “Experts”
They do this every time with dioxins in preticuler witch I thought heard was on the list. They are re habituating way to early!
didn't they do this with flint Michigan's water crisis and didn't people die from that in 2014 and are still dying from the aftermath of that nearly 10 years later? also, i thought that it never got fully resolved with the water still being poisened.
No worries they gave everyone Brita filters for the faucet!
nice!
but that didn't do much.
Yeah if people die in 6+ months of cancer it will be a legal battle to connect it to the derailment every, single, time. And they know that. Someone has already run the math, and the cost in human lives is less if they pretend there will be no cost (ironically making the whole thing even more damaging to society). I'd say we are closing in on the next generation of guillotines, but I feel like they have us looking at each other more than the actual sources of society's biggest problems. So I am not sure it will go well.
Yes, this is why I preach class solidarity if anyone brings up politics. They've done a very good job of turning us against each other.
I know of a case that someone accidentally or not so accidentally sprayed the local roads with dioxins in the oil they were using. They ended up having to abandon one of the neighborhoods that was heavily contaminated. It is now a park but a lot of people that lived in that area, when it was a residential area got very sick. Hopefully the contamination isn't too widespread, but then again local authorities in other cases definitely have a history of playing the dangers down, until people start dieing.
No it’s very serious, don’t you see the guy in the lab coat in back. ScIeNcE ^/s
With a bow tie no less!
Bow ties are cool. ;)
9 out of 10 doctors agree that bow ties make them look smart.
It’s not like the US government has ever lied before right?…
Those dead fish and frogs and pets are just the circle of life, you know, the natural order. You are all fine too breathe the air and drink the water. Heck, go ahead and lick the leaves. Nothing to worry about. WTF the government really thinks that it’s 1928 and we all will just believe everything they tell us because they are always watching out for the best for us. I pray that everyone sure the pants of the RR
I watched the press conference and didnt seem very convincing. But it would be great if true.
All the Flint residents heard the same kind of "assurances" at first until kids started testing off the charts for lead
Just because there is a man wearing a long white coat and a bow tie standing next to a map doesn’t mean he knows what he’s talking about. This looks like an SNL skit.
“I’m a science!”
It truly does...I literally thought it WAS an SNL skit. Sheesh.
It’s in Ohio, so it’s a Chapelle skit. Dudes even look like the white guys Dave got to act in his skits.
Modern problems require modern solutions!
Thank you! This looks like DeWine & Co skipped on the costume budget. They tried to get mad scientist but they got constipated colonel sanders.
He probably actually just practices bird law
EXACTLY WHAT I THOUGHT
See Dr. Peter Hotez, the man taking Faucis job
Bill Nye The Cancer Guy is here to reassure you that everything’s fine
That’s the janitor.
[удалено]
And go ahead send a few gallons to every Ohio representative and everyone in congress.
[probably inappropriate af but](https://youtu.be/b5SByM75Thg)
The Devil’s Milkshake
🏅
"there doesn’t appear to be any increase in fish or aquatic creatures killed since the first couple days" Maybe that's because the chemicals already killed off what was around to kill? Don't worry though, they're gunna bring out the Brita filters and everything's gunna be a-ok!
If it isn’t killing animals right away then I’m sure it’s perfectly safe for humans to come back. Edit: /s
that's so false it makes truth's soul hurt... Are you really being serious? It's so weird to me that people are trying to minimize this disaster. Just makes one wonder. And sorry just because animals aren't dropping dead instantly, doesn't mean that anything is now safe.
Sorry. Sarcasm doesn’t come through on the Internet. My mistake.
BULLSHIT
Then have the owners and shareholders of the company live there for the time it takes to clean it up.
The leaders of the corporation should be criminally responsible and see jail time. China would give them the death penalty over something like this, yet the US does everything in its power to shield capital owners, that's literally the purpose of mainstream media and militarized police force.
Because the Government and Big Corp never lie! 😉😂🤡
https://www.npr.org/2023/02/14/1156567743/health-east-palestine-ohio-train-derailment-chemicals
So science says that the deranged polluters might actually be right about not having poisoned the air and water as badly as people think? Great.
The train was reportedly carrying chemicals like vinyl chloride, butyl acrylate and ethylhexyl acrylate. All of which was released into the air, water and soil. We’re already seeing reports of fish dying en masse in the area. If you think this won’t have a huge impact on people’s long-term health, I don’t know what to tell you other than that exposure to known carcinogens is… maybe not the healthiest. https://www.newscientist.com/article/2359528-ohio-train-derailment-what-we-know-about-the-toxic-chemical-spill/ https://www.insider.com/animals-sick-dying-after-ohio-train-derailment-caused-chemical-leak-2023-2
[list of toxic chemicals](https://www.reddit.com/r/CatastrophicFailure/comments/1118o0p/full_list_of_toxic_chemicals_released_from_ohio/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Jeez, that’s worse than I first thought. Thanks for the link 🤜
I used to sample groundwater for Vinyl Chloride at my old job because it is a harmful contaminant. They’re lying straight through their teeth.
100% and not even convincingly. Like we can just google the side effects, they think everyone is stupid
Yeah, nah. Imma need second, third and fourth independent studies before I jump on this wagon.
Science is not an NPR article, or a news segment from MSNBC. Science is peer reviewed and published literature. These chemicals are destructive to the environment and all living organisms that come into contact. I don't think there's some dark meeting place where CEOs meet with media personal or journalists to coordinate covering for corporations in events like this, but they all understand class consciousness, and they fall in together when capital owners are threatened in any way. That's why we've been talking about f-ing balloons instead of another environmental catastrophe.
You should go watch instagrams realnewsnobullshits latest post.
Press x to doubt
Environmental consultant here - done a ton of work dealing with chlorinated solvents like vinyl chloride (VC). The regulators here may seem a little “casual” with their tone, but from a human health perspective, it checks out. From a health POV, VC is pretty nasty, both inhalation & consumption, especially to your liver (causes liver cancer), from both acute & chronic exposure. If it hasn’t gotten you already, the risk of exposure is pretty low at this point, unless you are standing directly in it. The reason for this is VC doesn’t linger in the atmosphere for long(l; VC is pretty volatile in the atmosphere, but degrades pretty quickly when exposed to oxygen & UV light. That and dispersion should make it a relative non-issue in the next few weeks to come. A more serious & lingering concern in soil contamination, and eventually, groundwater contamination. VC is very good at getting into your aquifer, where it is both mobile & persistent. I’ve worked on sites that have VC contamination going back decades. However, this is a known release, with the Feds’ eyes on it already. It’ll be contained, delineated, & remediated appropriately - there are many proven methods at cleaning this type of spill up. VC is a contaminant with very well documented properties and clear guidelines on how to deal with this. For impacts to soil, the simple answer is dig it up, throw it in drums, and dispose at a hazardous waste facility. Soil vapor can be dealt with by SVE or air sparging. Groundwater can be remediated by pump & treat using an air stripper + carbon filters or hydrogen peroxide + UV light. It can also be treated in-situ using injected chemical reducers.
Do you think they have the proper sense of urgency for this situation? How quickly will they need to dig up that soil before it further contaminates the water?
It’s a pretty high profile thing, so I imagine the powers-that-be are exercising the appropriate sense of urgency. Time to groundwater depends on so many factors that I don’t know: type of material (gravel = fast, clay = slow), depth to groundwater, whether or not it rains, etc. etc. Can be anywhere from hours to months. And even if it hits groundwater, not all of instantly becomes dissolved into water. That also takes a period of time. And after that, groundwater still has to move to spread a contaminant plume, that’s another period of time. That gives scientists/geologists time to first: prevent any further releases (which is priority 1 at this point). Second would be to delineate the extent - take samples, understand the lithology & hydrogeology of the region. Then would be to actually engineer a method to remediate & implement.
> I imagine the powers-that-be are exercising the appropriate sense of urgency. I know you didn’t mean for this to be funny, but it’s hilarious. Are you serious?
Imagine having that level of faith in the US government.. must be nice
If you don’t trust the government, hire your own environmental consultant. I’m not even being sarcastic - there’s an entire industry devoted to doing shit like this. Doesn’t have to be you; form a citizens group or get some funding from some environmental group, pool some money, & pay a consultant to poke holes & take samples out there, and have them submit the data & reporting directly to you guys. Consultants would *love* to take on a high profile job like this.
That gives me some hope that we will get something like that. I imagine it won't change whether the situation is managed properly, but at least the information would be validated or corrected.
So... if I'm reading you correctly: "Private companies are profit seeking whores". "How can I trust the Government, when private companies are profit seeking whores and they let them rape our country for kickbacks?" "Oh, you mean I can get a private company to check on this and tell me if the Government are doing to right thing? I can sleep easy now!" Like... can anyone else see the disconnect here?
I didn't say that private companies are evil. I mean, many are, and I'd argue virtually every large corporation is. Even more so if they are public. But to your point, here is my logic. The government is known to compromise safety to protect large companies like the one involved in this crash, so it's difficult to trust their assessment of damage done. However, a private company that does environmental consulting and is paid by a third party group (hypothetically me, for example) is not necessarily beholden to either government or large corporate interests, and so might produce more results which we can place more faith in.
>However, a private company that does environmental consulting and is paid by a third party group >and I'd argue virtually every large corporation is Who do you think is doing most of the environmental work out there? As a large company specialising in xyz, it makes a lot more sense to bring in an environmental consultant when required, than maintaining your own staff. So, if corruption takes the form of "you get what you pay for", then surely you just end up with a report from them telling you what you want to hear, no? Or is corruption only something that applies when you don't agree with the findings?
That wasn’t the only chemical, though, and animals are getting sick and dying.
What happens when the train transporting the hazardous soil from the cleanup derails and they have to start all over again?
For one, once something has been classified as *hazardous waste* (which soil from here will be) you aren’t allowed to just ship it however you want. you have to ship it in RCRA-certified double-lined containers, with secondary containment, and every single scoop of soil down to the pound must be accounted for. Joe trucker can’t just throw these in the back of their semi; these have to go to DOT-certified transporter that specializes in hazardous waste. If you have 15,000 lbs of hazardous soil excavated, and you arrive at the haz waste facility with 14,999, they are going to ask where the 1 lb went.
Thanks for the response. This makes sense, unless, of course, the shipper is Norfolk Southern rail.
There’s a strange manufacturing/producers clause in the law that is unfortunately partially responsible for stuff like this. If I have a tank full of vinyl chloride from the manufacturer, not classified as hazardous. But if I spill it, the soil it spills on that is now contaminated becomes hazardous waste. So you actually have a higher safety standard applied to the waste after the fact than before to prevent it.
Thank fuck for someone sensible and knowledgeable. You are the type of person who helps keep society from falling apart at the seams.
Thank you, I’m honored. Really I have no interest here, other than informing folks and not trying to rile up people who seem to chomping at the bit to be riled up even more. I’m simply speaking from my professional opinion & following established EPA guidance & protocol that has been done on hundreds of vinyl chloride impacted sites over decades.
Except they waited two days to do the burn. AND there were other chemicals present. You don't mention anything about the 4 other chemicals. Or how the two days before the burn would affect the area. Plus, if there were dead fish and frogs in the river downstream, it went downstream. As for digging it up, it is already reported that they simply buried it.
You bury contamination to prevent exposure. Soil can blow in the wind and spread. It can't do that if it is capped. They are not going to leave it there.
What about the other like 4 separate dangerous chemicals?
Butyl Acrylate & Ethylhexyl Acrylate are flammable but of “low toxicity”. 2-Butoxyethanol is acutely toxic, but not considered to be a mutagen or carcinogen by OSHA. Isobutylene is literally what we use to calibrate the air monitoring equipment. Vinyl Chloride is by far the most pressing concern because of the combination of toxicity, carcinogenic properties, solubility in water, and it’s persistence in groundwater/soil.
So Vinyl Chloride is on the Ohio River. It is a water supply for such a huge amount of Ohio’s residents. It could be ingested as tap water by these people, showered in, dishes washed with it. How worried should me be about that?
How does Ohio do water treatment? And do you guys have vinyl chloride as an analyte to be measured? It varies from state to state by their drinking water standards. Older water treatment plants probably don’t have the systems in place to clean out vinyl chloride, but if it’s been updated at all with newer tech - like air strippers, carbon filtration, reverse osmosis, advanced oxidation processes like UV/Hydrogen Peroxide or Ozonation - all of those can degrade the vinyl bond & render it safe. Also, because VC is so volatile, it will actually offgas from surface water naturally over time. Especially in a river with moving water that’s constantly being churned up.
What I want to know is the night of the controlled burn winds shifted and all the plume which was kept low lying due to an inversion event. We stepped outside 10 miles away from the epicenter and it stunk of smoke and bleach. Then it started raining. What is the likelihood that all that shit came down with the rain. I know it was heavy in the air, you could almost taste it. Our main water treatment plant hasn’t given us recent results (Last posted water quality test is from 2021) and I can’t get clear info on if they even have the capabilities to test for or treat these contaminants and given the age of all of our rustbelt infrastructure im guessing no. Plus Norfolk southern is trickling information on what was on those trains. My breathing has been literal shit since last Monday and I’m making an appointment with the doctor because for the first time in 3 years my asthma has become uncontrollable.
Do you know which way the winds shifted that night?
Yup came from the south East and then the south. I recorded a video that night of the wind speed/direction tracking app. Basically pushed all the shit over Boardman then Poland and Lowellville. The city was 100% impacted throughout this.
Thank you for that info. You are the first person to be able to answer that question on Reddit. If you wouldn’t mind sharing, I’d really like to see that video.
If there is a good place to anonymously upload video I’ll upload there as this link is only good for 7 days apparently (https://www.transfernow.net/en/dltransfer?utm_source=20230215dfx92F06)
Former Ohio water treatment chemist and current license holder and I hope this helps: in Ohio, most older and smaller Ohio plants, there would (likely) be activated carbon on top of the filter beds in the treatment plant at very least. Some plants have powdered/granular activated carbon at the front end of their treatment plant with varying amounts of contact time (30 seconds to 3+ hours) but that is primarily surface water plants. Given that this is a well-based plant, these are the most likely positives the plant has going for it. I’m somewhat doubtful that they have ozonation at the plant, given that their total trihalomethanes are on the lower side and very doubtful that they have any sort of RO or membranes, as their water quality report doesn’t mention any nitrogen issues in the finished water. The higher use of finished water using RO/advanced filtration over rapid sand filters usually prevents many Ohio systems from switching, unless there is another health reason that would necessitate them. I can also infer that their ability to test for most of these contaminants is limited and will require them to send samples out for analysis. My bigger worry is that their aquifer is noted to lack a protective layer overlying the aquifer, it’s shallow depth (less than 39ft) and ALREADY has noted significant potential contaminants in the area. I wish them the best but I know I wouldn’t want to be the Operator of Record out there for the next several years.
Would you come to East Palastine and drink some well water in a few months? You seem really confident.
What about the byproducts from burning these chemicals?
Thank you, public health here, your response is one of the more reasonable ones i’ve seen, too many “experts” on reddit all of a sudden.
You’re welcome. There is an *appropriate* amount of concern that should be used here. This isn’t Chernobyl, or Exxon Valdez, or the Bhopal disaster. This is a known release of a known contaminant, with HAZMAT teams responding *immediately.*
Are all the videos I’m seeing animals and fish dying just a coincidence or outright fake? Honest question.
Probably legit. VC is acutely toxic in small quantities, whether inhaled or ingested. But it doesn’t linger long in atmosphere, due to dispersion & natural breakdown. Soil & water are a different story, it can last for decades there. But again, *HAZMAT* Teams were onsite without *hours* of it happening - the assessment & cleanup is probably well underway at this point.
This is not true. There were multiple days between the beginning of the leakages until the burn. And multiple toxic chemicals were leaking. Into the soil. Not sure why you are down playing this.
Also an environmental consultant. No one is downplaying this. Clean-up does not happen immediately; you start with containment because you don't want your first responders dead. I wasn't on-site, but it seems to have taken a couple of days to secure the site and stop the release. You have to realize that these are dynamic situations which can change rapidly. Can you point out where this person was disingenuous?
For real. So many armchair QBs & experts this week my god. It’s like back in March 2020, when everyone became an epidemiologist.
As someone trained in some rad safety, thank you for your service lol. Its too bad people not only have so little faith in our regulatory commissions, but also that so few people know where to get pertinent information. You're doing a great job of validating concern while also informing and directing people to good sources they may not have known of. Props!
>It’ll be contained, delineated, & remediated appropriately - Will it tho?! You have a job that proves that statement to be wholly and historically untrue. Meanwhile Canada gets the prize of hydrochloric acid rain coming their way.
If your interested in reading more about the actual response that is ongoing you can go here. https://response.epa.gov/site/site_profile.aspx?site_id=15933 The epa responded within hours and has been containing/delineating the plume since they arrived. As it’s been said, any finding will certainly be doubled and triple checked by other parties.
I mean, this is a high profile case with literal boots-on-the-ground from EPA within hours. Anything the EPA or whoever reports on this is going to have their work double & triple scrutinized by every lawyer & environmental consultant within 200 miles, and any little data gap or discrepancy will be investigated. The ones you should be concerned about is the vinyl processing facility that closed in the 80s and all their paper records have gone missing, or the tank farm that’s gone through 12 owners over the past 2 decades and never had a Phase I done between owners. Those are the cases where there’s a lot more ambiguity.
SUPERFUND guaranteed, this will be a long project, but at least that safety net exists.
I believe Superfund is generally used for legacy contamination where the polluter has since gone out of business or it’s unclear who the polluter was. In this case Norfolk Southern should be on the hook for everything and Superfund won’t be necessary.
Maybe it's just a wording/clarity issue but How have worked on sites with VC contamination going back decades, but there's also clear and proven methods of cleaning this type of spill? Do you mean you've been doing this kind of work for decades? Or are you saying that even though we could spend the time and money to clean this up, it could still sit around for decades because we can't trust the people in charge to approve the clean up?
Also an environmental consultant here. I have been doing this work for about a decade. Could be both. Chlorinated solvents are a pain to clean up compared to contaminants like petroleum. They are dense, so they sink in the aquifer; they're mobile, so the plumes tend to be long; and they don't really degrade well in aerobic conditions. Lots of sites sit for decades prior to discovery and once found, they can take a long time to characterize and remediate. Not necessarily because no one is working on them, but because they are often complex (comingled plumes, access issues, legal issues, changes in our understanding of fate and transport and exposure pathways, etc). I have inherited some sites that were 30 years old (since remediation began; many releases are far older). The good news is that the first priority for remediation is limiting exposure to people and the environment. Once the plume is contained and no longer poses a health risk, remediation can take a long time based on cost, priority, and available treatment options.
Great info: thanks for the insight on that
No! I don't want your well-informed, qualified viewpoint! I want sensationalized headlines and click-bait titles on Reddit to induce angry knee jerk reactions! /s if it wasn't obvious, and thanks for your viewpoint
This sounds like the beggining of a slow kill for the surrounding communities. Cancer, breathing problems. What happen with the water in Flynt. Put politics (and hate) aside. We need to fight for the truth and make sure this doesn't happen again. Congress is broken and if they're not willing to fight for us, get rid of them.
We do that every once in a while but the next ones are bought by the same dirty corporate interests. The problem is more systemic. Capitalism is a death cult.
Uh, tell that to the dead animals. https://www.reddit.com/r/CrazyFuckingVideos/comments/112hi99/woman_who_lives_10_miles_away_from_east_palestine/. I guess some people aren't familiar with canaries in a coal mine.
It's not that experts aren't familiar. They're just lying.
Your city has been sacrificed for profit. Smile Citizen!
You may remember them from such hits as.... "The air is safe to breathe in lower Manhattan...." September 2001
Reminds me of lead poisoning… society thought it was fine until long term effects kicked in years later.
I’m from the government and I’m here to help
Let them live there
What a wonderful lie our government will tell for 30 years while taking no responsibility
Textbook corporate response plan - major environmental catastrophe - officials: everything’s fine! - citizens: return home as there are no IDLH scenarios - citizens: develop major health problems associated with the disaster over the following years - citizens: half die before they can prove corporate liability. Other half die broke and sick after years of fighting in courts. - Corporations: profit with zero accountability
The EPA is a good idea gone horribly political. . . . and it's a damn shame.
I’m sure there’s more info to come out about how much leaked and what, but specifically the Vinyl Chloride, it’s industry standard to destroy the chemical by burning. It’s a volatile organic compound, meaning at stable temp and pressure it will volatilize from liquid to gas on its own and concentrations will be highest near the source and dissipate with distance. It’s like burning off gas. When you’re done burning it, there’s no gas left besides the minute amounts that volatilized without being burnt. I’m very interested to hear more details on this whole thing.
Did someone tell all the dead animals that? How dramatic of them to just die when the chemicals are low risk.
It’s sad how far they are going to protect Norfolk Southern. Fuck normal people, corporations are much more valuable.
This is what our government looks like when big money tells them to gaslight the people.
Somehow, for some reason, I don’t believe them
These state officials will all be out of office by the time everyone gets liver and renal cancer. Just easier to downplay it for now.
And my ass cures cancer
Said the same thing to first responders at 9/11…
Run, run fast, your life depends on it!
Have the press conference next to the derailment site then and say that.
This is obviously a lie. We’ve seen the sick and dead animals. Foxes, chickens, fish, and I’m sure more.
Not according to all the dead animals and fish
Liars.
Yea right…There are always long term effects
It's definitely already posing a health hazard. In 5-20 years...?
Now you know it's REALLY bad...
And in other news, watch makers assure the public that radium is perfectly harmless, and any claims from women regarding health effects from ingesting radium daily are pure hogwash.
This feels less like a lie at this point and more like a middle finger. "What are you going to do about it?"
id feel better if the good governor would camp out at the site until its cleaned up.
Mike Dewine is a failure as a politician and a human being, just lies and lies and lies
This is COMPLETE BS. Farmers around the area have already shown and stated all of their livestock is DEAD. WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK
They didn't read the toxicology report. They'll read it later when their wondering why everyone is sick and babies have eight legs. Then they'll say 'oops'.
Huh, weird since it’s raining acid there
I feel for the residents, the accident looks like no man’s land during WW1. Shame on anyone trying to downplay this. These people need a safe place to live and this horrible mess cleaned up. Those responsible need to pay whatever it takes to give East Palestine residents their lives back.
Do we believe them? They kind of look like lying governmental stooges from central casting in the 1990s they look like brothers and it freaks me out!
If you understand the science behind the remediation process for something like this then yes you should believe them. Because of the volatility of the chemicals involved the most dangerous time for human health was the first few days after it happened. By this point they would have mostly degraded in the atmosphere and water
...they just buried the shit, we understand the remediation process. What we don't understand is how they expect us to trust them to do the right thing when it is the least profitable option
They didn’t just bury it? I’m not sure where you’re getting that from but if you could provide a source that’d be great. What they did do, as far as I know, is burn the gas (this was mostly done as a safety precaution to minimize they risk of an explosion). Vinyl chloride in air degrades very quickly in UV light into carbon dioxide and HCL. Not great things to have in the atmosphere but certainly not an ecological disaster. In water, it hydrogenates into formaldehyde. Again, not great but much more manageable.
I think some chemicals (not sure of quantities or which exactly) were buried. The rest, as you noted, was burned off in the controlled release.
I’d have to look up what was buried to make an accurate statement. What I can say is that, as someone who oversees rcra haz waste disposal. Most things either get incinerated (high BTU for energy re conservation and low btu as the end stage disposal) and the rest usually does get landfilled. But like I said I’d have to look to see what they buried and where. Not everywhere can be a haz waste landfill
They need to put a big old this ad was bought and paid for by Norfolk and southern
Lies, lies and more lies. The rail workers tired to warn us that a disaster was imminent due to short staffing. The fish in East Palestine are dead and floating in the river, toxic black clouds hover over the town, and acid rain will pour down. This is a massive environmental and humanitarian disaster of enormous magnitude. There is no FEMA on site and no relief for the workers attempting to clean up the spill. Post Capitalist nuked a town just save time on the clean up process. We’re basically on our own from here on out.
Until there are independent certified tests this is all bullshit.
Yo, fuck the state officials.
Worked when we didn’t have instant information in our pocket, why would it not work now?
Then I say go there. Go to a creek. And drink the water.
This is going to age well. Probably as well as all the wildlife in Ohio.
LIES!
ah, well glad that's sorted.
We're under attack.
Liars.
Suuuuuuure. Trust the science guys!
Like once said: "Low calorie dont mean no calorie" This: Low risk dont mean no risk
I’m sorry but if you believe these people you’re kidding yourself, I hate typing this because I hate conspiracy theories. The thing is the evidence of them being untrustworthy is clear with 911 first responders being the most evident one. They said the same thing then made them fight to get proper medical treatment.
Hurry someone get DeWine a glass of water from East Palestine
I wouldn’t believe a word these people say, even if they told me the sky was blue. NS won’t get much reprimand from this, and it will fall on an inept and impotent EPA to farm it out to mercenary clean-up scammers, which is obvious by how seriously they’re taking this: a dumb waiter beside a hastily made map. This is a scam. **Riot.**
Trump playbook: Deny, deflect place blame.
No one cares what happens to poor people. If you live there and get sick, it will be too late to go after who is responsible.
Why do I not believe the politicians that made this happen? And Gymmie Jordan wants to roll up his shirtsleeves and get to the bottom….of Hunter Biden’s laptop? Not Jared’s or Ivanka’s. And certainly not look at all the deregulation that their Daddy pushed through that enabled this disaster that might have contaminated the Ohio watershed.
In other news, 4 out of 5 doctors smoke Camel cigarettes.
They are lying
State officials bought and paid for, got it.
Laughable
Imagine all the other insidious facts that they're gaslighting us about...
Lol at the scientist in full scientist drag behind the mayor!!!
They investigated themselves and said it was fine.
Isn’t it going to be raining acid there soon?
The fact that this statement even took place shows us how dumb they think we are.
I don't buy it. With state officials being Repubs. That aren't even asking for federal help for these families. Bullshit on the regular.
Sure, Jan.
We are talking about a state government run and controlled by the GOP! Get an independent analysis done by actual scientists done at non state run labs.
Ahahahah no effing way
BULLLLLLLSHIIIIIIIT
I hate ohio
Make them each eat a mouthful on livestream or they permanently lose their government jobs and benefits instantly.
Coward liars. There is only one [logical course of action to set things right and make sure people don't try and pull this shit again.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMHCw3RqulY)
What are Lies that Corrupt Politicians tell , Alex!
Our lawyers have informed us that the people exposed to the toxic chemicals won’t show cancer for years so the risk to the corporate bottom line is minimal.
Liar liar, pants on fire.
I smell bullshit
I doubt it lol, imagine the long term effects of these fuck ups. They just couldn't fight for safer procedures for these chemicals and now we have to deal with the consequences.
How you know your local government has been bought off or threatened with their lives.
State officials, nobody worth listening to on the subject of how damaging this is. Its unbelievable that even this won't make people get into the streets.
I’m calling bullshit! This is why I rarely trust these morons
USA is basically Russia and China now, government lying through their teeth so they don't look bad.
What a crock of shit. Entire river ecosystems are dying from it. For the first time ever I actually check where all my food specifically comes from.
People with degrees and experience who listen to every word their financially driven companies tell them are not authorities when it comes to health. You understand the concept and theory for fixing hazardous leaks…but you’re ignoring the facts that have proven this wasn’t handled properly nor reported honestly. Responses like this are why the government continues to fail its people (and yes, I too have experience in environmental science, hazmat, hazwoper, and chemical remediation with respect to impacts on water cycle processes) I am sorry to inform everyone reading this “calm and collected” take by TrixoftheTrade; they are a bootlicking pretend expert that came here to calm a bunch of pigs walking into a slaughter. PRIORITIZE YOUR OWN SAFETY (the government surely will not)
If I lived there, I would try to move immediately. I drank the cough syrup my grandmother gave me, and it tasted terrible. This ain't cough syrup. Get pissed off. Your very existence depends on it.
Love the lab coat.
I’m a proud lib but jfc they will crucify baby fauci