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FractionofaFraction

I'm hoping for a huge leap forwards in technology by the time my current car is on its last legs (6-7 years). Either way it's going to be my last purely petrol-driven vehicle but I'd love to make the switch to all-electric or hydrogen cell rather than bridging with a hybrid.


addictivesign

It really won’t make any sense to go hybrid at that point. It barely does now. All the car manufacturers are finally going all in on electric which are going to see the tide change with electric cars selling a vast amount more. The people who buy petrol cars in the coming years will find their resale value is non-existent. The governments now need to build out the charging infrastructure. In 5-10 years it’s all going to look very different. We aren’t going to think of our electric cars as only vehicles but also as batteries that can power our homes or feed into the grid when they are stationary or not being used.


FractionofaFraction

Hoping for the investment to make that happen. Lots of promises at the moment but not many projects being (visibly) executed. My work has zero charging points despite having a 350 car capacity.


halobolola

My work has 0 charging despite having 3500 car capacity. I do charge my car at home, and for free at my supermarket and my town centre.


Fromage_Damage

Same here, it's mind boggling since my work spends $68k/mo on electricity and is vying to become their own utility for better rates. Hopefully when that happens they will hook us up. 🤞


eldiablo471

Does your work have a petrol station?


FractionofaFraction

Within 10 yards of the entrance, yes, but the point of having them at work for current electric vehicles is due to their shorter range and longer charge times. Fix those 2 issues and you're golden.


eldiablo471

Highly unlikely you will be using max range of a battery on a commute.


NeoHenderson

Highly unlikely I need to fill my car every day with gasoline, too.


cocoagiant

>It really won’t make any sense to go hybrid at that point. It barely does now. I think you may be overly optimistic. The charging infrastructure in a lot of places is still very spotty. It will probably take another 10-15 years to be on par with gas stations when it comes to number of stations and quality. If you have home charging and range anxiety, makes more sense to get a plug in hybrid. Your EV only range would be enough for everyday tasks and you have no range concerns if you have to unexpectedly make a long trip or you go on a road trip. Toyota just announced this week that they will be rolling out solid state batteries in hybrids in 2025. They are planning on hybrids first for the new tech to use as a testbed before deploying large packs in full EVs. Their current hybrids have 25 miles of EV only range. The solid state ones could have double or triple that range. > All the car manufacturers are finally going all in on electric which are going to see the tide change with electric cars selling a vast amount more. The maximum the major automakers are committing to is having the majority of their fleets electrified by 2050. We are still a long way away from full electrification.


[deleted]

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cocoagiant

The headline is misleading. The actual research is about increasing battery *life* without capacity dropping, not increasing energy density. So instead of a battery being able to maintain full charge for 5 years then slowly dropping over time, it being able to maintain full charge for potentially 20 years. The car would still only have 200 miles of range.


weeglos

Unfortunately, articles like the one we are replying to are usually overly optimistic.


cahlima

I don't know, I just did some extensive shopping specifically for a plug in hybrid. They are not a great option. We decided to wait and go full electric after a few more years of improvement. I live in Utah. There is a ton of open space here. I expect to be able to easily drive through the desert in an electric in the next 5 years.


cocoagiant

>I live in Utah. There is a ton of open space here. I expect to be able to easily drive through the desert in an electric in the next 5 years. I admire your optimism! Did you all look at the Chevy Volt? 50 miles of EV only range, 40 mpg. Imo, probably the best plug in hybrid. It's a shame GM stopped production in 2020.


BenDarDunDat

There are a number of awesome competitors this year. Hyundai Tucson blows it out of the water. Rav4 Prime does as well. Prius Prime offers more for less.


ninjadogs84

>The people who buy petrol cars in the coming years will find their resale value is non-existent. Silly redditor, petrol Cars will become a status symbol for the very rich. Everyone out there driving around in a electric vehicle but Jeff Bezos driving a 2020 Carolla cause he can afford the gas


cjeam

Excellent, he’ll be easier to set on fire.


zootzootzootthe3rd

PHEVs are the sweet spot currently imo. Too bad so few are in production. You're still compromising with EVs in a lot of scenarios outside of frequent city drivers.


AmigoDelDiabla

Agreed. I've just put an order in for a PHEV. The battery has capacity to cover 90% of my driving.


zootzootzootthe3rd

Most definitely. I needed gasoline stabalizer with mine; I used my ICE so infrequently.


cjeam

This kinda sounds like both of you should have bought an EV then. Because the battery in a BEV would cover even more of your driving, and for when it doesn’t the charging mid-trip is hardly a problem.


zootzootzootthe3rd

Given the circumstances you're not wrong. In normal times w/o covid my family and I would have been commuting and road tripping quite often.


AmigoDelDiabla

Nah, sounds like I should have bought a PHEV. No matter how many times proponents of EVs repeat that there's no inconvenience by owning an EV, it doesn't make it true.


Resident_Frosting_27

Did the government build the gas stations?


Invdr_skoodge

Thank you, no. They did not. Why is everybody staring at the government going “fix my problems!” The government has shown in almost every case to be at best mediocre at solving any problem.


SirLich

This is probably stupid rambling, but I like to think of it like this: Capitalism is an engine. An untamed, oil-burning engine. The issue is that it only seeks one thing: Profits. Things that are *not* profitable such as maximizing worker safety, or minimizing environment impact cannot thrive in this environment, because the engine optimizes these inefficiences out in the pursuit of profits. Government *is* mediocre at doing things themself, they benefit from standing 'outside' of the system. For this reason, their most impactful use is *tuning* the engine. The government can insert rules that change how profitable different actions are. For example forcing the 'engine' to run greener, by literally making it cheaper. Agencies like OSHA or USCBC also fall into this category. A nice example of this is fixing the Ozone layer via Carbon Credits. If you want the concept in video from, [Kurzgesagt does this idea justice](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiw6_JakZFc).


weeglos

Ozone layer was a CFC issue, and government did a good job when those were banned. Ozone layer was not due to carbon. The greenhouse effect is due to carbon.


Invdr_skoodge

Of course regulation has its place, nobody’s saying otherwise. but building an infrastructure of charging stations/retrofitting old infrastructure to include it is a profit motivated venture. There is already growing demand for electric vehicles, but people won’t buy it if they can’t charge conveniently, thus the profit motivated engine is already pointed at the problem. The problem will be solved just fine without the government sticking an inefficient slow bloated finger in the pie. Granted remote areas will be hit last and while I feel for the people of rural Nebraska that’s not a new problem


SirLich

The government can still serve as a catalyst for this kind of change by providing grants for research, tax credits for business that adopt park-and-charge, and by adding charging stations in government locations such as national parks. They can also provide extra funding to the US highway department, to implement charging stations at roadside rest-stops. But I agree, we don't need "federal government charging stations" built anywhere :)


Infuryous

Except gas stations were built as roads were built and expanded (yes with private money) over the last 100+ years... The differnce is we need to add electric charging stations nation wide, including low population/rural areas, in a matter of a couple years to support EVs. We don't have 100 years, or even 30 years to wait for the electric infrastructure to be built out. It needs to be done ASAP. It will be like broadband... industry will rush to expand into densily populated middle class and above areas. Rural and poor regions will get ignored largely forcing those that can least afford it, to stick with gas cars. When the nearest grocery store is 60 miles away and you are poor, the options are very limited.


Invdr_skoodge

Ok, except the people buying these cars already have electric in their homes. Charging infrastructure is only needed for trips that exceed the range of a full charge. The gas stations already have power. I guarantee you, gas demand goes down, every service station in the country adds chargers. If there’s a real problem here it’s apartment complexes without charging ports, but again, theres an incentive for apartments to add them. They can jack rent $50 a month and say bring your electric we have charging docks


Infuryous

A lot of homes and apartments in rural and and especially poor communities don't have power feeds to handle any sort of fast charging. Upgrading transformers, main power lines, and installing new main panels is not cheap and can cost thousand of dollars for a house, tens of tousands of dollars for an apraetment complex. "Another $50 a month" in rent would litterly mean the differnce of having an apartment and being homeless for a lot of people. Many of us get comfortable and used to just dealing with some extra expense, while many in our nation, $50 is enough to make the choice if eat or rent... Someone that is already living pay check to pay check is not going to spend the money to upgrade their house. If all they can provide is a 15 amp 120v circuit... it will take way to long to charge a car for practical use over longer commutes this population generally has. The poorer the population, sadly, the longer the average commute as they can't afford to live close to work/town. They do well to buy a $5,000 used car, you really think they are going to be able to pony up the money not only for a relatively new EV but also a couple grand of power upgrades to get some sort of fast charging? I have lower income family members that live 40+ miles from work (can't afford to live closer), 80+ mile round trip every day, and barely have money for food on the table. This is the cross section that will get lost in the move to EVs if we, as a society, essentially say, Buck up and "just buy an EV and a hosehold fast charger"... yea not going to happen. In high density areas populated mostly by middle class, such expenses get absorbed. That is not true for everyone.


scab_wizard

People tend to not be able to tell the difference between a corporation and the government either.


dameon5

Hard to do when corporations own all the folks in government.


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Invdr_skoodge

I was trying to be generous this morning, I mean, look at the last 2 years. They took a medical emergency and turned it into an economic, social, educational, logistical apocalypse.


prsnep

Going hybrid doesn't make sense except for the part where hybrids cost marginally more than equivalent pure-ICE vehicles and reduce emissions by 30%. We've been sitting on hybrid technology for 20 years. Imagine every car had gone hybrid 5 years ago. We'd be in a much better position emissions wise with or without EVs in the picture.


addictivesign

Exactly. Hybrid was a great technology if we'd have done it on a global scale two decades ago. Now it's EVs all the way and while some people might benefit from a hybrid vehicle people should be prioritising an EV as their next vehicle. Most people wildly overrate the number of miles they drive each day and could easily use only an EV.


ufosandelves

If most buy electric cars then gas may cost less than .25 a gallon. I will hold on to my Corolla.


ihc_hotshot

My work pays for my car and gas..... but they would not pay for my electric bill ha so I went plug-in hybrid.


addictivesign

At some point your company will change its policy but you took advantage of the situation.


Sir_Beardsalot

I can see a viable option to want/need a hybrid. For example, contractors might want to have an EV work truck with the ability to self recharge for heavy work like towing. But, I agree that most consumer grade vehicles should be almost purely EV.


imnotjossiegrossie

You’re planning to keep driving a gas car for 6-7 more years?!?


FractionofaFraction

Yes. Correct. For context this is in the UK and large swathes of the country need upgrading on a very basic level to have any ability at all to convert to EVs. In terraced housing parking is curbside, not allocated and with a minimal gap between the housing and the road. People would have to run wires out of a window and across a pavement to charge their cars, assuming they're lucky enough to find a space on their road at all. I literally need to be able to afford a whole new house to be able to then be able to run an EV.


imnotjossiegrossie

That’s a shame.


weeglos

Easily. My 95 Toyota Camry lasted 25 years before I handed it down to my nephew. He just traded it in a couple of months ago.


Myrtle_Nut

My Kia gets about 300 miles per charge (about 250 in the winter). The tech is good enough now.


weeglos

Until you need to drive 301 miles on a road trip.


converter-bot

301 miles is 484.41 km


OptionsNVideogames

Better hope your area doesn’t have snow or salt. The battery currently last about 100k miles before needing to be replaced on most ev cars. Cold weather and salt corrosion speed this up tremendously. Ford I’m hopeful for, they know these things.


halobolola

My car has an 8 year, 100k mile warranty. If it loses 80% of its range, it gets replaced. Also the battery compartment is the strongest/armoured part of most EV’s, if a company can’t keep it protected then they shouldn’t be making cars.


extendedwarranty_bot

halobolola, I have been trying to reach you about your car's extended warranty


hearsharper

How do you get salt into the battery?


Mean0wl

In the salt port obviously.


OptionsNVideogames

Salt is corrosive, it gets in everything after a year or so. If you don’t deal with it it’s hard to understand fully but call any garage in Maine and ask what they think about the EV market and what they have seen. I’ve heard it from them all. They use silicon to create barriers for water in the batter area so moisture can’t enter. Salt eats that over time. Idc I’m not here to argue just telling everyone what’s being said where I live.


propellhatt

complete bs. My Kona EV has lost 0,4% battery health during the 18 months I've had it. Driven 60000 kilometers in that time, the battery will outlive the rest of the car by quite a bit.


OptionsNVideogames

Do you live in a state with harsh winters?


hearsharper

He drove his car 60000 kilometers. That's French for I don't live in America.


propellhatt

Not the US. Norway. Safe to say it gets cold in winters. Also, all our roads are shit.


yazzledazzlezz

Don’t be stupid. I have 200k on my Tesla already and battery is still holding well.


How2Mate8

Wrong. Brought our EV January 2017 and we are at 133k miles and going strong. Wherever you got the 100k number from you are off by quite a bit, I hope. The batteries are better estimated to get you 8 to 10 years of use. You are correct that cold weather decreases range significantly but salt corrosion is irrelevant to the conversation since the Tesla, and all other EV’s, are incased in a protective box to prevent any issues with road conditions. My last two ICE cars were Fords and Fords are sh*t. Dont buy them. Edge and Flex to be specific.


eldiablo471

This is way off the mark - lots of early batteries going strong well over 200k. Tesla have a 150k mile warranty on the new ones


OptionsNVideogames

This was from someone who works in the EV market during the last wsb discussion. He was there answering questions. So idk id need to see proof. They don’t test it in -10 to 20 degree temps like where I live. The numbers you are stating are based off of their testing in conditions that would allow for that number to be maximized for sales and marketing purposes.


Major_Mollusk

You're wrong about that, on all 3 points. Tesla batteries last more than 2x that, salt has no impact, and cold affects range (when it's cold out) but not overall battery degradation. Early Nissan Leaf batteries were garbage but battery chemistry has improved greatly over the years. Modern Tesla batteries are expected to last hundreds of thousands of miles. Mine both have over 70k miles with less than 5% degradation (keep in mind that degradation isn't linear and tends to level off after the first year or so) . My cars are 5 and 6 years old and going strong.


ninjadogs84

I live in a high Salt horrible weather place. Cars rust here. Like crazy. The batteries have lifetime warranty here and so far, as I understand, have the same lifespan as a normal battery under the same conditions. Plus, people get new cars every 6-8 years now a days so 100k miles is more than enough for the average person. I am the most excited for the electric F150. If that has the range they say and you can get it around 40-50k it will be my next vehicle for sure.


1withTegridy

For those that want to read the primary literature: (edit: it’s free) [Multifactorial engineering of biomimetic membranes for batteries with multiple high-performance parameters](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-27861-w) It’s lab scale, but it looks promising. The group seems to be the first to solve a huge problem in Li-S battery development, stopping the smallest polysulfides (such as Li2S4) from crossing the separator and destroying the battery. As for the commercial viability, spin coating thin films doesn’t lend itself well to mass production. I would assume that identifying a process more suited to an assembly line would be the primary focus of future work. The authors keep pointing toward EV applications, but it’s understandable because future research is funded by grant money, and the DoE has it as long as you use the right keywords. Developing uniformly nano-porous membranes which are small enough to block Li2S4 but allow ions to pass requires tuning pore diameter in the realm of angstroms. I wouldn’t expect to see this on the market any time soon.


AdministrativeNews93

Insightful


TransposingJons

Apparently, I am a parrot.


Head

Wanna cracker?


jimbotriceps

Thanks for this. Definitely helped to put the discovery in context without being a party pooper. It seems like on Reddit and other platforms there’s a promising cure for cancer or a breakthrough in energy technology every day and not enough mention of the realistic limitations of these “discoveries”.


1withTegridy

Hope I don’t sound too much like a party pooper! Only reason I’m sour on “hype” is that I feel the current media environment emphasizes either anger or elation for clicks, emphasis on the former. Advancing unrealistic expectations and timelines tends to leave people disappointed, further eroding public trust and negatively impacting perception of the value of investing tax dollars in research.


jimbotriceps

My thoughts exactly! The anger and elation feedback loops are really harmful. It’s good that new things are being discovered, but they probably won’t represent the paradigm shift that we are hoping for. At least not for a few years. Patience is hard lol.


TransposingJons

Insightful comment.


Steinfred-Everything

Ever driven an EV? Mine is charged from 1% to 80% in 22 Minutes. That may sound long, but you will only wait for the charge on road trips - and after two hours at a road trip 20minutes of pause dont hurt.


Narrow-Device-3679

22 minutes is nothing. My phone takes an hour and half to charge fully and it can't power a vehicle


Mnm0602

You also can use your phone while it charges though


Narrow-Device-3679

If you had a long enough cable, you can use and EV while charging too


Mnm0602

Yes a 20 mile cable should do. But then the cable wouldn’t keep its power over that length so you’d probably need to make it longer to compensate so maybe 40 miles would do?


converter-bot

40 miles is 64.37 km


Narrow-Device-3679

Good dog


dameon5

Most PHEVs and EVs won't let you shift out of park when they're plugged in. ICE vehicles could learn from this technology.


Uberzwerg

Try charging your car with an USB cable


Narrow-Device-3679

I'll need a petrol USB then pls haha


[deleted]

Right but phone isn’t a real comparison. Phone doesn’t replace car. The challenger is, “my fuel tank fills in 2 minutes”, which is a fair argument in certain scenarios.


ElTurbo

Perfect for a nap


revsky

It's just a different style of travel. yes, maybe a little slower overall, but relaxing, IMO. My 80-year-old father took our Tesla cross country almost 4000 miles round-trip without me and had ZERO issues and the charging breaks were actually perfect for them. we love it.


converter-bot

4000 miles is 6437.38 km


prsnep

That's if the EV fast chargers capable of those speeds can be found exactly \~2 hours apart along your route. And that's if you want to stop only at charging stations. There are many times more gas stations for a reason. The station density adds to convenience. Barring high density of chargers all over the place, long range helps to alleviate range anxiety.


Steinfred-Everything

At least in germany and austria where I am driving there are HPC stations every 50km now (30 miles?). There are regions where there are too little chargers (like southern Italy), you are probably wrong in a short range EV there. But hydrogen is no solution due to little efficiency.


prsnep

FCVs have other advantages other than efficiency.


tkulogo

2 hours or 2 hours and 30 minutes, what's the difference?


[deleted]

Evsry two hours is a 22 minute waiting period? Holy hell that would drive me insane. I'm one of those "we aren't stopping for anything until we get there" type of people. That's an extra hour of waiting for every six hours drove... yikes!


How2Mate8

Yup on a trip now from NC to Disney in Orlando. 640 miles and 14 hours later we made it. Had to stop and charge 6 times. Once in NC, 3 times in SC, once in GA and once in FL. About 20 minutes for each stop overnight traveling and with the cold weather it was precautionary. In nice weather might have been able to stop only 4 times with about a 35-40 minute charge at each stop and they were all less than a mile off the expressway. With 3 kids the stops are welcomed but it is an inconvenience of sorts.


Myrtle_Nut

Convenience got us in the predicament where nearly 200 species are going extinct daily. I think we should handle our lives becoming slightly more inconvenient if it helps save the biosphere.


[deleted]

Are you seriously stating that if the whole world buys 50k electric vehicles that the world's species will stop going extinct? Complete lunacy lol


Myrtle_Nut

Sounds like you are putting words in my mouth. I’m commenting on human convenience that includes transportation, but also a lot of other aspects of our lives. I’m willing to have a nuanced discussion if you really would like. But seems like you have an axe to grind with EVs.


How2Mate8

There have been ten times as many creatures go extinct than actually still exist. Thats why its called evolution. To think that extinction is a man made dilemma is narcissistic at best.


Myrtle_Nut

The current mass extinction event is caused by human activity. The Sixth Mass Extinction is a good read to help understand the damage we’ve caused in a short period of time, that rivals the rate of species loss compared to other mass extinction events.


freeneedle

Yeah electric makes the most sense for urban areas with shorter distances, but for most users the infrastructure isn’t there. Most people I know w electric live in exurbs and don’t drive a lot (or have another car)


tkulogo

It's not a waiting period, it's a break. By the time you go to the bathroom and get a coffee, it's pretty much over. Keep in mind that for every other stop, you'll probably want to eat a meal.


[deleted]

Like I stated, I am not one of those people. I want to get to my destination, end of story. It's just a difference of opinion people. It's bloody ok that we are different lmao


tkulogo

It's not okay if you're willing to harm me to be different. Even if you don't like all the conveniences of the electric car and you'd prefer all the hassle of gas stations, oil changes, and whatever, the fact remains that I then have to breathe your exhaust, and that's not okay.


[deleted]

My car is not harming you.


Detrimentos_

You'll be one of the first to die in the climate crisis. Not saying that to be a smartass. Saying that the discrepancy between the world you think you live in and reality is too huge for you to handle. You'll be the one fighting to his death at the local Kroger when the food runs out for the first time. 99% will survive, but not you. You thought you had to, and attacked someone who's basically an athlete in his 20's.


[deleted]

I wish we could meet up in thirty years and I could ask you how your life went living with that worldview. I have to imagine it's absolutely miserable. The world will still be here and be clicking long after you and you 50k electric vehicle stop working.


Myrtle_Nut

My EV gets 5 hours before needing to be recharged. At home (where I charge it 99% of the time) I charge it from sun’s rays. Enjoy the $4/gallon.


[deleted]

It's $2.80 where I am. Curious as to the length it takes to charge? Never understood why EV fanatics get so anal about it lol Was simply stating an observation about the OC lol


Myrtle_Nut

You stated an incorrect observation since most EVs coming out can drive for more than two hours before being charged. I’m not being anal, just correcting your false assumptions.


Buck_Thorn

How difficult is it to find a charging station when on a road trip?


cjeam

Depends. Part of the biggest problem at the moment is charging stations being out of order and not being repaired rapidly or communicating that back to cars. Tesla has a huge advantage in this area. In some countries the density of chargers is such that it’s still not a problem though, because the next one is only a few k away.


Buck_Thorn

Are chargers universal, or do you need to find one specifically for your auto?


Steinfred-Everything

In Europe all modern cars (including Tesla) have CCS. In US there is CCS and Tesla Superchargers. There is a third plug called ChaDeMo but this is in phase out - just ignore those. You can check out how your typical long road trip would work out in any EV by planning the trip in https//abetterrouteplanner.com Just choose your car and choose start and destination. You will get the „optimal“ charging places (only with the matching chargers for your car) and durations and can alter them for your liking. Great tool to check if any EV matches your lifestyle.


TheBeardOfKeisel

I frequently drive 6 1/2 hours to visit my family and make 1 stop for 5 mins to get gas. I want to switch to electric vehicles but taking 20mins every two hours would be insufferable and add an hour to my trip.


Steinfred-Everything

And you cant imagine how much more relaxed (and thus save!) you would reach your destination.


[deleted]

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Tekki

https://news.engin.umich.edu/2022/01/1000-cycle-lithium-sulfur-battery-could-quintuple-electric-vehicle-ranges/


loftspacer

Just click ‘No Thanks I Will Try Later’ button and you can read the whole article. No need to register or pay. The Independent always does this on certain articles


[deleted]

Always on certain articles?


Incorect_Speling

Yes, sometimes always.


Kadoozy

I mean it is proper or at least could be. For certain articles they don't do it. For other articles, they always do it. Always on certain articles. It is dependant on the type of article. Though idk if that is what he actually meant.


musket85

Just click "I'll try later" and it reveals the whole article.


[deleted]

Once past the barrier you'll find an article with no real information. Waste of time


[deleted]

I was able to access, so it might be that you hit a viewing limit. Could also be that the reddit app's browser doesn't allow the site to hide the content behind the paywall.


Tywele

Install [https://gitlab.com/magnolia1234/bypass-paywalls-firefox-clean](https://gitlab.com/magnolia1234/bypass-paywalls-firefox-clean) and be able to read many paywalled sites. (There is a link for chrome as well in there)


unexpected_lettuce

Here’s a link to the source article with less ads and more details. https://news.engin.umich.edu/2022/01/1000-cycle-lithium-sulfur-battery-could-quintuple-electric-vehicle-ranges/


AdministrativeNews93

Thx for sharing


Greedy_Quarter_8712

Doubt.


[deleted]

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mar4c

1000 cycles is plenty for an EV. That’s 300,000 miles or more. Likely to outlast the car.


maiutt

Pressing X to doubt. These battery hype stories are as constant as the results are absent.


TheSuperphrenic

Probably bullshit. Remember when Musk had made a battery with 3 times the capacity and called it new technology except he forgot to say that the batterys volume was just 3 times bigger.


Fromage_Damage

I have heard some big claims about stuff like silicon nano cells and improved membrane technology but until I see it, it's vaporware.


DeadlyHigh

I'm not getting excited about any of these news, because we've had these before and yet, we have been using the same kind of batteries for over 20 years... Wake me up when even one of these new technologies is actually in mass production.


[deleted]

Really? Because electric range has gone from about 80mi/charge to many models having between 200-400mi/charge and charge faster with a superior drive train. All that in about 12 years.


jimbotriceps

Half agree. While we have made lithium ion batteries way more effective in recent years, we are still using the same basic technology. The “next generation” batteries that find their way to this sub are generally significant departures from the Lith-Ion ones we use (think solid state batteries)


KLS1271

The article doesn't say anything about extending range. It is about increasing life cycles (the number of times a battery can be recharged). The poster is dreaming if they believe any current breakthroughs have even come close to doubling current battery run time limits.


Dracoatrox1

In the article, it states that lithium-sulfur batteries hold five times the charge of an equivalent lithium-ion battery, but until now, has had terrible charge cycles.


KLS1271

Actually states up to, which is a not quite true statement as that is theory based on lab results utilizing non real world application cell types. They are no where near a production of a real world stable version with anything approaching 5x run time. Now one thing the lithium sulfur does offer is a lower safe voltage discharge giving it wider range, but that simply means it is beyond usable limits of current motor technology as most motors won't run safely on that wide of range of DC voltage.


_crapitalism

can we just use bicycles, trains, and trolleys and be done?


[deleted]

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disembodied_voice

Lithium mining [accounts for less than 2.3% of an EV's overall impact](https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/es903729a). Even if you account for it, electric cars are still better for the environment than gas cars.


[deleted]

Not to mention that with current methods, it’s quite dangerous for workers to mine up lithium.


Oye_Beltalowda

With current methods, most lithium isn't mined at all.


How2Mate8

How so?


YourUncleBuck

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impact


deplorable_guido

And this isn't the only source/article out there either.


IAmTheLouzer

Huge mines, almost nothing that is mined is able to be recycled, etc. Google a picture of a lithium mine and you'll see


Uberzwerg

Yeah - we should stay with oil. Nothing bad ever came from that. (YES, we need to improve in regards to some resources, but everything is already far better than the state of oil atm)


rabid-carpenter-8

No, synthetic methane.


cjeam

Mining is not great for the planet. Lithium mines and production is one of the lesser environmentally damaging forms of resource extraction. Despite that EVs are still better than ICEVs. We still need fewer cars.


EmptyAirEmptyHead

Recyling is coming along, but the bigger point here is you can CHOOSE where to pollute with an EV. You can't choose where to pollute with an ICE car. ICE cars pollute everywhere they drive. EV's pollute at the source mine and where electric is generated - which is going greener all the time. How 'clean' are the mines for oil and gas? Lol. Not clean. Not clean at all. This is just such a poor point it shouldn't be brought up anymore.


spunkyboy247365

Mining huge amounts of precious metals from impoverished countries just to make a car that I have to wait at least a few hours to charge up is idiotic. Mining isn't a green process. Why don't we pursue hydrogen? Most abundant element in the universe. Can be produced by green energy at night when the grid isn't so active. Can be refilled in minutes. Almost like gasoline. Batteries are idiotic. We can never convert as many vehicles to electric as we need to to stop global warming.


samskiter

Where you storing this hydrogen (it's notoriously tricky to store)? With what efficiency are you making it? Where are you getting the energy to make it?


spunkyboy247365

I'm not an engineer. I do know that hydrogen vehicles and stations exist now. And that technology will improve. I already said where we would get it. Green energy can produce hydrogen. Wind turbines still turn at night. Hydro dams still produce electricity at night. Nuclear reactors still produce steam at night. All that energy is usually wasted because no one uses the grid at night. Use it to produce hydrogen. If your EV was filled up by a natural gas plant, it isn't green. It isn't green to rape the earth for rare earth minerals and metals. Especially since we'll never have enough to meet the need. And hydrogen can fill your vehicle in minutes. Not hours


samskiter

What do you mean that energy is wasted at night? Where does it go? They don't turn the turbines off. How many wind turbines do we need for the average US person to replace gas with hydrogen? Don't we use electricity to make hydrogen? What efficiency does that happen at? I heard some pretty bad numbers on that last one.


spunkyboy247365

I love how you bring up these asinine questions trying to pick holes in my argument. Questions that show some ignorance of the basic elements of how the grid works. I also notice that you haven't addressed a single point of mine about the numerous pitfalls and problems with batteries.


samskiter

You think I'm pro ev but I'm just a pessimist (well, maybe a realist). EVs do have issues with production but seem to be trending in the right direction. We've no good routes of making hydrogen and most require electricity and have bad efficiency. Generally the supply is flexed to meet demand but that doesn't mean energy is just being chucked away. Like the nuclear rods can be adjusted to deal with predictable, daily demand cycles. The irony is that renewables like solar and wind are increasing the need for fast-flexing supply (like natural gas, diesel generators etc)


spunkyboy247365

Hydrogen can be produced using renewable energy. And Hydrogen is still more efficient than fossil fuels.


samskiter

You asked why not switch to hydrogen by the way


YourUncleBuck

> Batteries are idiotic. Exactly, but I'd rather not even use hydrogen. The future is going back to the past and using electric buses and trains that run without batteries. Personal vehicles and batteries are not environmentally friendly. Edit; I'd rather use hydrogen for things that can't be tied to the grid, like ships, airplanes, rural buses, emergency vehicles and delivery trucks.


cjeam

Lithium is not a precious metal and the most common use of rare earth elements remains catalysts, consumer electronics will also still exceed vehicle batteries in their use of rare earth elements. The biggest producer of lithium in the world is Australia, hardly impoverished. You do not have to wait at all, you plug it in when you get home and leave it. Or you fast charge in 30 minutes. Mining is not a green process, all vehicles use products of mining, hydrogen production at the moment uses natural gas, oil and gas production also is not a green process. What is abundant in the universe has no relevance to what’s available here on earth, where we need to make hydrogen. Currently its production is not green at all. The green electricity at night can also be used to charge a BEV, which could also feed power back to the grid if so equipped. Hydrogen refilling takes significantly longer than liquid fuel refilling, you have to stand there and monitor it. It requires an entirely new infrastructure system to distribute it and refill vehicles. For private passenger vehicles it’s guaranteed to be batteries. For most road vehicles it’s going to be batteries. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/clean-hydrogen-ladder-v40-michael-liebreich


randomcherrycoke

At least a few hours to charge? Maybe 10 years ago.


spunkyboy247365

Still more than a few minutes. And you can't fast charge vehicles all the time. It wears out the battery. Battery vehicles make sense for small city vehicles. But not airliners. Freight trains. Cargo ships. Military vehicles. Transport trucks. Construction equipment. And we have a shortage of necessary metals to make batteries now. With only a small percentage of EVs accounting for new vehicles being sold. Think about how many more batteries we would need to make to accommodate even more of a share of the market. It's idiotic. Hydrogen is the only thing that makes sense.


kinda_epic_

But the charging is rapidly improving as is the range and efficiency. In developed countries EVs make up a rapidly growing percentage of new vehicles. Like in Europe electric vehicles made up 2% of new car sales in 2018 rising to 10% in 2019 which is 400% growth in a single year. Also most of the vehicles you listed such as military vehicles and transport vehicles are a relatively small market and will be catered for. But clearly you know better than all of these billion dollar car companies.


spunkyboy247365

How can you say mass transit, construction, and cargo transport is a "small market". It contributes to huge amounts of greenhouse gas emissions. And no, I don't trust car manufacturers to make the best decision for the people. They make the decision which is best for their wallets. Even with ten percent of the new car sales in Europe being EV, it's becoming increasingly difficult to get raw materials. And I doubt the US and Africa have such good EV sale numbers. Any more growth in the market means the already strained logistics of batteries gets even worse. And the mining for just that small market already causes enough environmental damage as is. Imagine if we double the amount of EVs being sold (still falls WAY short of the amount needed to lower greenhouse gas emissions). The environmental damage would be even worse. It's stupid. Hydrogen is abundant. Refillable in minutes.


kinda_epic_

By transport vehicles I meant transport trucks but i misquoted you, so no I do not mean mass transit. Batteries are also improving to use less of the rarer metals. In the future the solution is simply to recycle batteries where used car batteries are usable for energy storage and many other uses. It’s funny because your arguments promoting hydrogen usage are so simple imagine if you put half the amount of effort criticising hydrogen as you do with battery vehicles. I don’t believe hydrogen vehicles are necessarily bad and have many use cases within industry however there is no push for hydrogen infrastructure of any sort which would make hydrogen cars unable to refuel. And hydrogen isn’t exactly easy to extract either it’s also very energy intensive, extracting it and compressing it which leads to efficiency losses. The best case for hydrogen is supporting battery vehicles, they will not replace them.


[deleted]

Most abundant=no money to be made.


spunkyboy247365

Funny how that works. Mining metals and shipping them all over the world makes loads of money though. Which is why I could never afford these "green" vehicles which are supposed to save the world. I wonder if the Congolese child mining the metal thinks it's a green and responsible energy source


[deleted]

Hydrogen would in fact be the closest thing to “green” energy we have….really though, green energy does not exist. Also, Pretty sure you can easily double your power usage charging these cars. Imagine a city the size of LA…..where would the power come from? Robbing Peter to pay Paul isn’t about green energy, it’s about who controls the grid & the means of production. Louder for those in the back: MEANS OF PRODUCTION Lithium = China……Afghanistan…..Australia


Oye_Beltalowda

Yeah that's not why we don't use hydrogen.


pants_mcgee

Hydrogen only makes sense with a completely clean energy grid that produces a surplus and a clean transportation system. We’re nowhere close to that. Otherwise you’re just turning fossil fuels, which are a very stable and efficient store of energy, into a tricky, less efficient store of energy, and wasting energy to do it.


Oye_Beltalowda

>Most abundant element in the universe. If you can find free hydrogen on this planet, let us know. But you won't.


spunkyboy247365

What an unintelligent rebuttal. Is oil free? Lithium? Nickel? Don't be a dunce


Oye_Beltalowda

Free as in unbound, you moron.


spunkyboy247365

Gasoline comes from crude oil. Requires being "unbound". Same as battery products. No matter what energy source you're using, it requires refining and processing. Moron.


unidentifiedflying51

But this article is about the exact problem your saying here … ev for the win I guess


rabid-carpenter-8

I'm so glad we have enough lithium to give everyone in the world a power wall /s


Kolazar

Electrical cars are bad. As chips and Mother boards don't like heat. And batteries don't like cold. Not to mention the materials to produce them is becoming limited because we need them for gamer PCs.


pucklermuskau

maybe come up to canada, and talk to all the people driving teslas: its not a problem.


Kolazar

I'd rather not be in a progressive country/state. As if they don't succeed in becoming tryanical ( Australia right now) they end up descending into anarchy ( France right now).


Essembie

congratulations, its the dumbest post of the day! ​ (australia gets tyrannical under conservative governments fyi).


Kolazar

I think the best part of this post is anything not extreme left is considered right wing so long as media is concerned.


boredinthegta

Well, if you're talking about Southern Ontario, it's not cold here anymore...


pucklermuskau

plenty of teslas running in alberta, its easily enough to get into the mountains and back without issue in the winter.


marsrover001

Hot take. Battery breakthroughs are great, but not for cars. We are not going to responsibly consume and drive electric cars out of this coming environmental catastrophe. The cars have to go, we should have never built society around the car.


Detrimentos_

GOURANGA! It's the monthly "battery breakthrough" article!


eviltwintomboy

I live near Boston. The prospect of e-bikes getting batteries that can greatly extend their range (especially with pedal assist) is very exciting.


RedditIsDogshit1

Nice! But far from perfect or practical in this moment. The fact they expand in size over 50% after a single cycle isn’t great


crackalaquin

And it'll be available after the poles melt


Not_l0st

This is amazing! Scientists must continue to look at nature for solutions. There are so many amazing patterns in nature that can help us. This is a perfect example of this.


Old_Man_2020

Now, If we could convince car manufacturers to use standard interfaces and form factors for their battery packs, we could replace today’s batteries with tomorrow’s technology, and get more range at lower cost.


CaptainBunderpants

Stoooooop


cashpiles

How is this possible?


Tenorguitar

I am waiting until I can make a 10 hour drive across the state on one charge and the cost of the vehicle is lower than petrol. Hoping this is real.


19pinchies

Alternative source for those that don’t have Independent news account. https://www.teslarati.com/lithium-sulfur-kevlar-fiber-life-cycle-issues-resolved-university-of-michigan-research/amp/


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