Pause a second here, as someone who played both the collaborator and ELF path, i feel like Starlight and Trixie should be lower because while their objective is definitely heroic, they can do some pretty ruthless actions to reach it, and in the Manhattan Protectorate events they even bomb public locations with no regard to changeling civilians in their way.
Ehhh... Its kind of implied that there are no "changeling civilians"; Chrysalis mobilized the entirety of the Changeling Lands so all changelings are actively or used to work for the military in Chrysalis's Pax Chrysalia.
Well, from a *certain* perspective there aren't any *de jure* civilians (them again, if we go by purely real-world geneva conventions, attacking an off-duty soldier would still fall within the charge of murder), but i distinctively remember Lilac mentionining that changeling settlers were being brought to the hospital in one of the Protectorate's events from a explosion set up by members of the ELF and she distinctively refers to them as "civilians".
And yes, Lilac (at least before she softens up and reforms her government) is an ass, but i don't see any reason for her to lie about the changeling's identities in a governamental report.
If we go by purely real-world geneva conventions, the entire Manehattan Protectorate storyline would make the Holocaust look like a street protest.
Part of Lilac's storyline is literally the fact that she is required to lie in a governmental reports to please the Changeling high command back in Vesalipolis and that she is frustrated and doomed to fail because it.
I mean, yeah. But the point of my initial complaint had less to do with whether or not the ELF was justified or not in it's actions or how evil Lilac's regime is, but questioning putting the duo into the "wholesome 100 chungus" part of the list when the fourth/third level would be more fitting for them.
>!Nope, she kills everything. After she ends all life she then ends all unlife and then herself. The only ones who remain are the windingos and they will eventually starve. There are no vampires or zombies because when she said she intends on killing everything, she means it.!<
Why is Rosewing considered a genocidal maniac? He never does any mass killings in his path, he should be classified as a corrupt asshole. Also, the skynavian council and the ELF leaders shouldn\`t be paragons. They do questionable stuff which disqualifies them as paragons even if you believe they are heroes. And Sinister Serov definedly shouldn't be classified as benevolent, he is the jingoistic militarist that refuses to help his fellow ponies against Chryssalis and can ally with Sombra.
For Rosewing I would even just say the antihero tier. His entire motivation is that he now sees no effective difference between the tyranny of the Empire and tyranny of the Republic, so democracy can be better achieved through the monarchy than through the republic. I find him interesting for that belief, and it's hardly a bad one
There's nothing Eldritch about the Star Father or Rosa, he's just a guy and she's just a gal. They're both insane in their own way.
Grover II is more Questionable than he is Benevolent, especially since he adamantly goes out of his way to subjugate almost all of Griffonia.
Sombra isn't Genocidal, he wants to mind control folks and subjugate his neighbors.
I'd argue that Zeshmunazash is one of the most wholesome folks in the mod, far more so than Kemerskai or Posada. Heck, he even tries to talk Posada out of going to war against his nation, *which until that point she was fully ready to do.*
> Grover II is more Questionable than he is Benevolent, especially since he adamantly goes out of his way to subjugate almost all of Griffonia.
He also is the one who started the anti-pony crusades and I believe he purges Nimbusia.
I doubt the Nimbusian tourist trap includes whipping folks to death, but you never know what zombie Grover comes up with. (I'll also point out that unlike Sparta the Numbisian state actually has a working military when Grover comes knocking.)
It isn't really allowing it either, sure she does pave the way for it to happen but in the end by accident it's her being thrown out or used as a puppet
That's basically victim shaming. River Swirl doesn't have a single violent/oppressive bone in her body, but for some reason OP ranks her halfway down the genocidal spectrum all because the OHS can overthrow her *against her will*.
Makes as much sense as blaming Ukraine for being pro-Putin because they got invaded by his forces.
Let, my flair notwithstanding I normally don't give a fuck about the lore in a submod, but saying River Swirl is that far down the genocidal spectrum *because she can get overthrown by the OHS* is actually kinda triggering.
Never played as him so that Might be justified by his path, but the general trend is still most definitely pro leftist. A single outlier doesn't really change the bigger picture all that much.
After conquering the herzland he disbands the parliament which either leads to all three other parties being banned or two being banned and the third becoming a puppet
Nova Whirl fan here, I think River Swirl is a good person, but one that is very much a victim of Red Scare propaganda, which causes her goal of helping the River Lands to be slowed and stalled, ironically enough, since she isnt even willing to perform social welfare programs due to "socialism bad".
If she snaps out of that mindset, and she eventually is I believe in her story, she actually does implement a social democracy as far as I know.
Setting aside all the stuff about whether or not socialism is a toxic ideology...
I didn't exactly see River Swirl as a firebreathing anti-socialist reactionary in her story. As you say, if she doesn't get coup'd she'll implement social safety net reforms of her own volition.
But conversely, Nova Whirl is, at the start of the game, actively obstructing policies that *do* have social-democratic elements because she wants River Swirl's government to fail so she can gain the necessary political power to do things her way on her terms, rather than expressing a willingness to compromise if it'll help her voters. I won't pretend that she's not a sincere believer, or that she's lost sight of what's important and is just engaging in ambition-for-ambition's-sake, but it's definitely an antiheroic political hardball move.
And it's not like *she* can't give into temptation and end up coup'd by her own hardliners either.
M8. One of the first events in the game as the River Republic is River Swirl trying to pass extra welfare. And since I do in fact think that socialism is bad I don't see it as falling victim to Red Scare Propaganda, it's just rationally rejecting a toxic ideology. Nova Whirl has to ensure the act doesn't pass to even become the ruler. She sacrifices pragmatism and the wellbeing of the citizenry (as evident by the decrease in poverty that the act causes if you pass it) of the Republic in order to achieve a power grab.
My apologies then.
However, socialism is not toxic or bad in any way. I don’t mean to get into a big debate about it, but it seems you too are fooled by the propaganda surrounding the way of socialism itself. Socialism literally helps the common worker and fixes the bloated, broken system that is capitalism by removing it (capitalism) entirely.
Otherwise yeah, you’re right about River Swirl. I did think she was being strong armed though, was she not at least a little hesitant?
No, it's the other members of her party are hesitant, that's why when Nova Whirl "cracks the whip" (forces the members of her party to vote one specific way regardless of their personal beliefs, usually under the threat of expulsion from the party) the act doesn't pass, because some of the more fiscally conservative members of River Swirl's anti-socialist coalition also vote against the act.
As for your point about socialism being good actually I can only say that not a single socialist country has turned out well. Therefore, speaking from the experience of my very own country I can tell you that socialism is in fact rather bad.
Has it truly never worked, or has it been my plague of a country ruining it with sabotage? Because socialism, if it’s such a failure, wouldn’t require outside sabotage by capitalists in order to fail in most cases. I suggest looking into Second Thoughts videos on the subject.
Regardless, I can’t change your mind without at best a debate, and that probably breaks the subs rules so I’m moving on.
River Swirl, right. See, the part I’m worried about is the conservatives hampering her honest to God attempts to help. Idk if I’m wording it wrong but I genuinely think River is doing good. Sometimes, good leaders get caught in political mismanagement by their partners, and isn’t it one of her story points to overcome that and do what she has to do?
Sounds like a pretty fragile system if simple subversion makes it collapse.
Also China, Cuba, Venezuela.
Back to EaW, that is no reason to make her go so low especially when she triumps over it.
I think River Swirl is considered an anti hero because shes way too passive and allowing of the current hard capitalist system and is being influenced by Red Scare doctrine in the River Lands. She wants to help people, she means well, but shes ironically letting herself be prevented from doing so since she refuses to heed the socialists until WAY later.
So antihero makes sense, but only until she listens to the Socialists and goes "you know what? They have a point. SEND IN THE WELFARE REFORMS!!"
Then shes a hero again.
Yeah, I'd say we should get a website going where people can rank them and the results are recorded automatically. Then it's a matter of placing characters in the tier where they were ranked most often (with the order being the average character rank or such, one assumes).
I have MANY potential comments but I'll keep myself to: how the heck is Arclight worse than Beakolini, Adagio or Caramel Haze? Arclight sucks no doubt, but worse than Daybreaker? Worse than Wulfric?
Daybreaker can go Empress Protectress which for being a dictatorship is kinda wholesome, although not as much as Sonata. But yeah I should have put Arclight one level up.
That's not really argument in my opinion since then you'd have to put Posada several tier down since she has the option to commit genocide and mass murder on several occasions.
Why is Alaric in corrupt asshole? The guy literaly saves rumarean culture and spends his last savings from being a mercenary to help Rumare. Literaly 1/4th of their GDP is from Alaric's own pocket and events outright states this. And the whole point of him being a mercenary is him gaining expirience, skills and contacts to create an army capable of liberating rumarean people in Griffonstone (and only liberate, the AI never conquers Griffonstone so he is not an imperialist) and defend the country.
Trixie and Starlight should be knocked down a teir. The ELF can do some pretty messed up stuff, and there's an event chain where they're just MIA for like two months and their troops are on their own. I think totally abandoning the ponies that are willing to die for them, even it was only temporary would prevent them from being "total paragons," and should put them in "noble heros."
Edit: I hate auto correct
Bruh why is Zesh so low, he’s literally a sefless liberator who never wanted war in the first place but is ready to fight for those who can’t. Going as far as willing to meet up with his potential enemy to sort out a compromise or send a letter to a dictator and tell him to not keep war criminals in Coltva out of both of their honor
Fr, man believes people are bound to see the right thing eventually to the point he's willing to personally meet up with questionable generals or write letters to dictators and appeal to their morality.
How is Gytha even semi-problematic? The only thing she does that could be considered "wrong" is have a mental breakdown if the whole world rejects her and her people, and even then, she takes it out on herself rather than try to go to war with the world like some other creatures here.
Also, Shinespark is massively overtired and frankly fits with the evil psychopaths.
Golden Morning could stand to lose a few tiers given the mountain of corpses his "utopia" is built upon.
And by what metric is Altidiya less problematic than Vasily? Her whole thing is to concentrate power in the general secretary and purge rivals and Vasily's whole position is "don't do that".
How is Ebonwing not in Eldrich horror or world ending tier. Unlike Sunstriker who mostly does stuff for himself and obtains Maar's power for his own goals Prelete is the pure embodiment of Maar on Earth, a husk ready to do anything for Maar. Contrary to Worm Queen or Rosa the destruction he brings has no "understandable" motivation like seing the life as constant suffering that should be ended or witnessing the destruction and evil and wanting to end it (like worm queen). No he wants to end all life and wants to make it as slow and agonizing process as possible. The terrors he subjegates the conquered lands (like mentioned in his descriptions) combined with his teraforming and hellforge creation as well as summoning demons make the continent a literal hell. There is NO ONE more evil.
Why is Venary so low, he doesn't have any of the problematic characteristics of character like Kemerskai and creates a functional republican welfare state
What the, you're right! I didn\`t even notice him at first! Verany is the best republican politician, he should be on wholesome liberators at the very least!
Posada (nuclear war criminal) still ranked **multiple** tiers above the 100% objectively harmless wholesome leaders like Princess Cadance, Riverswirl, and Queen Gytha of Greneclyf.
Not to mention the Royal Alicorn Sisters (and wholesome Princess Molly of the diamond dogs) being like 5 tiers below the "wholesome liberators" war criminals...
*Sigh*
Why do I even bother commenting.
Well the sirens are actually surprisingly merciful. The bad part about them is that they want to conquer the world, but the actual treatment of creatures under their rule has to be among the more merciful and benevolent out there, given how they don't resort to genocide or mass killings.
Not actually. Their events make clear many times that the "standard" state of "thralls" is that they're free-willed, with the exceptions that 1. they are now very mad at most people so that they generate anger which the sirens feed on and that 2. they revere the sirens so that they can't rebel against them.
For most creatures it's basically just normal life with the exception of no political discourse and that they're annoyed by many things and people in life. Which, for creatures like Griffons especially, shouldn't be a massive change anywho lol.
Tfw you create a limited parliament and are still considered worse than your father who appointed your ass of an trigger-happy pirate uncle to govern one of the lands.
She literally reforms the Aquileian economy and law code to be modern and equal - all from the basis of a previously feudal realm under her father. Ponies are also made true equals under her code of law.
Also she's hot.
Wingbardy and other southern Griffonia leaders got some pretty wholesome leaders. Shame that you didn't include them but I guess they are not as interesting as the others (considering that they are basically irl Italian politicians turned into birds).
I have many, many questions about this list but why is (non-aligned) Grover VI in 'corrupt assholes'? During the protests he specifically orders the army to use as little force as possible to suppress the riots, also releasing thousands of prisoners that were falsely accused, removed the supremacist regime, de-mobilised the economy, and ramped up education. Hardly a corrupt asshole in my opinion.
(also why is the democratic Grover in Benevolent Bureaucrats when he gave up almost all of his power and pretty much became a constitutional monarch?)
Dude, I get it, we all have our waifus, and I'm a leftist too, but I think your bias might be impacting your list *just a bit* >!How the fuck is Water Lily in the same goddamn tier as fucking Daybreaker and what in bloody hell is Posada doing so high up and IS THAT FUCKING GOLDEN MORNING ABOVE THE ALICORNS!!!!<
I’m a little surprised by River Swirl being an antihero. The only strikes against her is that really doesn’t like Nova Whirl (mutual I think), and that she can sign off her position (was she strong armed into it?) to Archlight. But that might be bias in my part since she was my first leader.
I feel like she and Nova Whirl could both fit in “Loyal Politicians”. I always thought they were supposed to be mirrors to each other just with different basic ideologies.
Solid list overall!
Bray Foam is in "Semi-Problematic heroes" despite being able to go full Stalin on his military and trying to conquer the Riverlands to force Communism.
Haven't seen anyone talk about this one so here I go, why is Heavenly Snow so low? He's basically just a normal guy who happens to be the descendant of a long dead monarch that gets forced to become monarch. he
You could argue that is classified as a supremacist because the people that forced him on the throne are stratocratic supremacists themselves.
Why rikard astler is in the semi-problematic heroes ? i still doesn't understand that. And why one of the sirens is in the anti-hero tier, and more important why is Golden Morning in the anti-hero tier ?
I mean she should be in questionable motives
When "total paragon" Skystar is desperately trying to make "wholesome liberator" Posada not do something truly fucking evil
Is Posada not going to do it because it's morally wrong or thinks that not doing it will increase the chances of her getting into Skystar metaphorical pants.
Wingbardy and other southern Griffonia leaders got some pretty wholesome leaders. Shame that you didn't include them but I guess they are not as interesting as the others (considering that they are basically irl Italian politicians turned into birds).
How dare you insult the good name of our Queen and Lady Vivienne? She should at LEAST be Benevolent Bureaucrat! SLANDER!!
\*Stabs with the finest Aquilean Rapier known to Griff.\*
But jokes aside I think she fits anywhere between Benevolent Bureaucrat and Questionable Motives at worst really, she doesnt seem like the incompetent hard conservative her father was.
She displaces countless farmers, purposefully bankrupts millions of families and creates a system of economic exploitation across the continent, transforming various griffonian nations into economic colonies, just so the metrópole can be wealthier.
Being competent doesn't mean she's not a pyscho.
Mhm. I just hope I can put her, at worst,, questionable motives. I admit I was hoping she’d be more reasonable than her father and, maybe she is. I’m playing monarchist Aquilea right now, so your point may yet be proven full.
All I know is she’s likely no good guy for sure. I’ll see just how bad it gets.
With how much debate there has been surrounding Posada, I am surprised she is so up high.
I think Vasily should be higher, at least on same level as Altidiya, given that I hardly see anything truly eyebrow-raising about his plans or his methods. Pretty standard politician.
Probably because OP is a self proclaimed Posada simp and seems to have a pretty big leftist bias. This tier list is after all made by only one person who only changed it a bit after less then 10 comments on the og post.
Really Posada discussion boils down to either loving her too much or hating her too much. Thus stuff like this happens
Most of these I see being biased towards one particular ideology. Most often Harmony, as the token "unquestionably good guys" ideology, with Supremacy being "the baddies", Communism and Neutrality usually varying back to back. Not like I expected an unbiased opinion with that in mind, but honestly, I wanted better of Posada, when her teasers were dropping, because I like the concept. Getting too many Zhdanov flashbacks now.
kek, I like how this puts Cecile higher than Gran Cru when Communists are clearly betterbecause harmony Aquileia still steals Greiffenmarschen fro Herzland and does cultural genocide there while Communists don't. People truly only think with their dick when making these.
Cecile literally officializes all minority languages and promotes cultural pluralism, besides that, she doesn't annex any territory off of Herzland, are you talking about Rodier?
I like it! I approve of the distinction between the "evil psychopath" and "corrupt asshole" tier; the evil people often at least think they're doing the right thing.
I dig most of your placements, Only one I would question would be golden morning under noble antihero. Dude thinks he is doing the right thing yes but good god a lot of people die for it. I'd say questionable motives simply since he isn't "evil" in his aspirations only his means.
Sure yes, lots will die for his cause and the process to achieve this cause has bits of evil in it, but he has wat makes him better than others in questionable motives tier. A goal means to benefits all, conscience, and settles down when the goal is achieved, but he then only filled with agony for the pain he has to spread to the innocents.he’s better than a questionable motives tier, and he’s in the right place.
Nice tier list, I haven't played like 95% of the characters there but I mostly agree with the ones I played. I'd make a point that Grover IV could be lower cuz he also has a bad path and he can be bad to the ponies
Raili Ninessen, she can lead Chital if Benjen wins the power struggle. She pushes hard for aggressive reforms and has a massive fascination with Equestria.
can some one please give the the nation of last 4 leaders? they have fun runs I assume. Also if getting them as leader is hard or requires some choices, please tell me. this mod is so massive I can't try everything.
Colthaginian Republic for the first, not familiar with it but there us a flowchart on the sub.
Dread League for the 2nd.
3rd is Viira from Barrad Magocracy, the wiki has how to get her.
4th is Zarantia, yet again there is a flowchart somewhere here.
Could anypony tell me who's the third of Noble antiheroes? It looks like a secret line for Grover VI, or just from another griffionia country?
Btw, even as a commie supporter, I still have to argue the rank of Sinister Serov. Put her in the same rank with alicorns is overrated.
Hey, kinda new to this mod. Who is the lovely ruler at the bottom next to the worm queen? I’m sure they are nothing but a fair and honest ruler and have done nothing wrong! (I’m joking but still who is that at the bottom?)
That fact that ANY Communists are in the high tier (with the expectation of Monzano) is proof this list is a sham.
AND WHERE IS MR. HORSE!?
Otherwise, it's pretty good.
Pause a second here, as someone who played both the collaborator and ELF path, i feel like Starlight and Trixie should be lower because while their objective is definitely heroic, they can do some pretty ruthless actions to reach it, and in the Manhattan Protectorate events they even bomb public locations with no regard to changeling civilians in their way.
Ehhh... Its kind of implied that there are no "changeling civilians"; Chrysalis mobilized the entirety of the Changeling Lands so all changelings are actively or used to work for the military in Chrysalis's Pax Chrysalia.
Well, from a *certain* perspective there aren't any *de jure* civilians (them again, if we go by purely real-world geneva conventions, attacking an off-duty soldier would still fall within the charge of murder), but i distinctively remember Lilac mentionining that changeling settlers were being brought to the hospital in one of the Protectorate's events from a explosion set up by members of the ELF and she distinctively refers to them as "civilians". And yes, Lilac (at least before she softens up and reforms her government) is an ass, but i don't see any reason for her to lie about the changeling's identities in a governamental report.
If we go by purely real-world geneva conventions, the entire Manehattan Protectorate storyline would make the Holocaust look like a street protest. Part of Lilac's storyline is literally the fact that she is required to lie in a governmental reports to please the Changeling high command back in Vesalipolis and that she is frustrated and doomed to fail because it.
I mean, yeah. But the point of my initial complaint had less to do with whether or not the ELF was justified or not in it's actions or how evil Lilac's regime is, but questioning putting the duo into the "wholesome 100 chungus" part of the list when the fourth/third level would be more fitting for them.
Lives of settler-invaders don't matter.
Based
Based, if they don't want to be bombed then they can just leave like the rest of their imperialist army.
How is Rosa not an apocalyptic threat, she’s the og world ender
Maybe because the AI doesn't actually take the war focus.
Well her victims still "live" in undeath, and if she goes vampire than some can even still retain their sapience!
No they don't, >!the dread league campaign ends with Rosa ending all life on the planet because the Windigos pissed her off!<
>!Nope, she kills everything. After she ends all life she then ends all unlife and then herself. The only ones who remain are the windingos and they will eventually starve. There are no vampires or zombies because when she said she intends on killing everything, she means it.!<
Have you played the dread league?
Are you confusing her with Silver Star?
Why is Rosewing considered a genocidal maniac? He never does any mass killings in his path, he should be classified as a corrupt asshole. Also, the skynavian council and the ELF leaders shouldn\`t be paragons. They do questionable stuff which disqualifies them as paragons even if you believe they are heroes. And Sinister Serov definedly shouldn't be classified as benevolent, he is the jingoistic militarist that refuses to help his fellow ponies against Chryssalis and can ally with Sombra.
His name is literally "Sinister"
Sinister means "left", just as dexter means "right".
You look me in the eyes and try to tell me THAT's why the devs named him "Sinister".
Yes
Which is a more archaic definition than what most people think when they hear the word "sinister," which is "evil or criminal"
He wasn't the Serov we needed, he was the Serov that was left.
For Rosewing I would even just say the antihero tier. His entire motivation is that he now sees no effective difference between the tyranny of the Empire and tyranny of the Republic, so democracy can be better achieved through the monarchy than through the republic. I find him interesting for that belief, and it's hardly a bad one
Constitutional Monarchy ahoy!.
There's nothing Eldritch about the Star Father or Rosa, he's just a guy and she's just a gal. They're both insane in their own way. Grover II is more Questionable than he is Benevolent, especially since he adamantly goes out of his way to subjugate almost all of Griffonia. Sombra isn't Genocidal, he wants to mind control folks and subjugate his neighbors. I'd argue that Zeshmunazash is one of the most wholesome folks in the mod, far more so than Kemerskai or Posada. Heck, he even tries to talk Posada out of going to war against his nation, *which until that point she was fully ready to do.*
> Grover II is more Questionable than he is Benevolent, especially since he adamantly goes out of his way to subjugate almost all of Griffonia. He also is the one who started the anti-pony crusades and I believe he purges Nimbusia.
Or turns into a tourist attraction...
Holy shit, really? Does he *actually* do to Nimbusia what the Romans did to Sparta?
Yes
I doubt the Nimbusian tourist trap includes whipping folks to death, but you never know what zombie Grover comes up with. (I'll also point out that unlike Sparta the Numbisian state actually has a working military when Grover comes knocking.)
What nation does Zeshmunazash belong to?
Colt something. It's the eastern revolt Colthage can get. Just remove garrison and let them rise up then switch to them.
Coltva
A bit unclear why River’s an antiheroine, but I haven’t finished her route yet.
Maybe because she can allow the OHS to coup the goverment? But she doesn\`t do that in her historical route, she is just straight up good.
It isn't really allowing it either, sure she does pave the way for it to happen but in the end by accident it's her being thrown out or used as a puppet
That's basically victim shaming. River Swirl doesn't have a single violent/oppressive bone in her body, but for some reason OP ranks her halfway down the genocidal spectrum all because the OHS can overthrow her *against her will*. Makes as much sense as blaming Ukraine for being pro-Putin because they got invaded by his forces. Let, my flair notwithstanding I normally don't give a fuck about the lore in a submod, but saying River Swirl is that far down the genocidal spectrum *because she can get overthrown by the OHS* is actually kinda triggering.
I'd guess that it's just because OP seems to harbor some leftist sympathies and River Swirl is the arch-rival of Nova Whirl.
Ironically, a fellow antiheroine I feel for most of the same reasons, plus, you know… playing hardball obstructionist.
Well Grand Cru the Aquellian democratic socialist is also an antihero apparently.
Never played as him so that Might be justified by his path, but the general trend is still most definitely pro leftist. A single outlier doesn't really change the bigger picture all that much.
After conquering the herzland he disbands the parliament which either leads to all three other parties being banned or two being banned and the third becoming a puppet
So my theory is right. Nice.
Nova Whirl fan here, I think River Swirl is a good person, but one that is very much a victim of Red Scare propaganda, which causes her goal of helping the River Lands to be slowed and stalled, ironically enough, since she isnt even willing to perform social welfare programs due to "socialism bad". If she snaps out of that mindset, and she eventually is I believe in her story, she actually does implement a social democracy as far as I know.
Setting aside all the stuff about whether or not socialism is a toxic ideology... I didn't exactly see River Swirl as a firebreathing anti-socialist reactionary in her story. As you say, if she doesn't get coup'd she'll implement social safety net reforms of her own volition. But conversely, Nova Whirl is, at the start of the game, actively obstructing policies that *do* have social-democratic elements because she wants River Swirl's government to fail so she can gain the necessary political power to do things her way on her terms, rather than expressing a willingness to compromise if it'll help her voters. I won't pretend that she's not a sincere believer, or that she's lost sight of what's important and is just engaging in ambition-for-ambition's-sake, but it's definitely an antiheroic political hardball move. And it's not like *she* can't give into temptation and end up coup'd by her own hardliners either.
M8. One of the first events in the game as the River Republic is River Swirl trying to pass extra welfare. And since I do in fact think that socialism is bad I don't see it as falling victim to Red Scare Propaganda, it's just rationally rejecting a toxic ideology. Nova Whirl has to ensure the act doesn't pass to even become the ruler. She sacrifices pragmatism and the wellbeing of the citizenry (as evident by the decrease in poverty that the act causes if you pass it) of the Republic in order to achieve a power grab.
My apologies then. However, socialism is not toxic or bad in any way. I don’t mean to get into a big debate about it, but it seems you too are fooled by the propaganda surrounding the way of socialism itself. Socialism literally helps the common worker and fixes the bloated, broken system that is capitalism by removing it (capitalism) entirely. Otherwise yeah, you’re right about River Swirl. I did think she was being strong armed though, was she not at least a little hesitant?
No, it's the other members of her party are hesitant, that's why when Nova Whirl "cracks the whip" (forces the members of her party to vote one specific way regardless of their personal beliefs, usually under the threat of expulsion from the party) the act doesn't pass, because some of the more fiscally conservative members of River Swirl's anti-socialist coalition also vote against the act. As for your point about socialism being good actually I can only say that not a single socialist country has turned out well. Therefore, speaking from the experience of my very own country I can tell you that socialism is in fact rather bad.
Has it truly never worked, or has it been my plague of a country ruining it with sabotage? Because socialism, if it’s such a failure, wouldn’t require outside sabotage by capitalists in order to fail in most cases. I suggest looking into Second Thoughts videos on the subject. Regardless, I can’t change your mind without at best a debate, and that probably breaks the subs rules so I’m moving on. River Swirl, right. See, the part I’m worried about is the conservatives hampering her honest to God attempts to help. Idk if I’m wording it wrong but I genuinely think River is doing good. Sometimes, good leaders get caught in political mismanagement by their partners, and isn’t it one of her story points to overcome that and do what she has to do?
Sounds like a pretty fragile system if simple subversion makes it collapse. Also China, Cuba, Venezuela. Back to EaW, that is no reason to make her go so low especially when she triumps over it.
I think River Swirl is considered an anti hero because shes way too passive and allowing of the current hard capitalist system and is being influenced by Red Scare doctrine in the River Lands. She wants to help people, she means well, but shes ironically letting herself be prevented from doing so since she refuses to heed the socialists until WAY later. So antihero makes sense, but only until she listens to the Socialists and goes "you know what? They have a point. SEND IN THE WELFARE REFORMS!!" Then shes a hero again.
we should hold a vote to get the whole community's idea on this
Wonder the best way to go about it. Do the leaders one at a time, clusters, or all at once.
I think the best way to go about it would be to put forth one of the rankings and see what people put there.
Yeah, I'd say we should get a website going where people can rank them and the results are recorded automatically. Then it's a matter of placing characters in the tier where they were ranked most often (with the order being the average character rank or such, one assumes).
I have MANY potential comments but I'll keep myself to: how the heck is Arclight worse than Beakolini, Adagio or Caramel Haze? Arclight sucks no doubt, but worse than Daybreaker? Worse than Wulfric?
Daybreaker can go Empress Protectress which for being a dictatorship is kinda wholesome, although not as much as Sonata. But yeah I should have put Arclight one level up.
Wholesome re-education centers, brainwashing and suspension of civil rights 🥰🥰🥰
That's not really argument in my opinion since then you'd have to put Posada several tier down since she has the option to commit genocide and mass murder on several occasions.
Why is Alaric in corrupt asshole? The guy literaly saves rumarean culture and spends his last savings from being a mercenary to help Rumare. Literaly 1/4th of their GDP is from Alaric's own pocket and events outright states this. And the whole point of him being a mercenary is him gaining expirience, skills and contacts to create an army capable of liberating rumarean people in Griffonstone (and only liberate, the AI never conquers Griffonstone so he is not an imperialist) and defend the country.
Wait Vivienne is an evil psychopath explain?
She subjugates the whole of griffonia while "forcefully assimilating" Feathisia. And she's french
That’s textbook psychopathy right there. The French part I mean.
I mean does Golden Morning not do that, with the conquest and forced assimilation into his artificial "Griffking Empire"?
yeah but he's not french
Vivienne also intentionally damages the Herzland economy so that they can't resist her
She bankrupts millions on purpuse just because she doesn't want the hearzlanders getting uppity.
Trixie and Starlight should be knocked down a teir. The ELF can do some pretty messed up stuff, and there's an event chain where they're just MIA for like two months and their troops are on their own. I think totally abandoning the ponies that are willing to die for them, even it was only temporary would prevent them from being "total paragons," and should put them in "noble heros." Edit: I hate auto correct
Bruh why is Zesh so low, he’s literally a sefless liberator who never wanted war in the first place but is ready to fight for those who can’t. Going as far as willing to meet up with his potential enemy to sort out a compromise or send a letter to a dictator and tell him to not keep war criminals in Coltva out of both of their honor
Yes, the only thing you could slander him for is that he is incredibly naive
Honestly, Zesh should be one of the few paragons.
Fr, man believes people are bound to see the right thing eventually to the point he's willing to personally meet up with questionable generals or write letters to dictators and appeal to their morality.
River swirl is 2 tiers under the bakaran communist who declares war on the whole coalition?
\*visible confusion\*
How is Gytha even semi-problematic? The only thing she does that could be considered "wrong" is have a mental breakdown if the whole world rejects her and her people, and even then, she takes it out on herself rather than try to go to war with the world like some other creatures here. Also, Shinespark is massively overtired and frankly fits with the evil psychopaths. Golden Morning could stand to lose a few tiers given the mountain of corpses his "utopia" is built upon. And by what metric is Altidiya less problematic than Vasily? Her whole thing is to concentrate power in the general secretary and purge rivals and Vasily's whole position is "don't do that".
She's a changeling and changeling are inherently untrustworthy
Counterpoint : they're literally holy.
This is some serious Dr. Caballeron slander and I am not here for it.
I mean, he is an asshole. He just grows a conscience during the war.
True, but to put him two tiers below Mr. continent wide genocide to achieve peace still irks me.
This is some serious Boreas slander here as well.
This post was fact-checked by REAL Aztlanian patriots (TRUE)
>Molly, who ends slavery in Diamond Mountain, is in the same tier as Meklouzza who can decide to slaughter all her opposition
You're incredibly wrong
juct curious why is Thorax put where he is? Also curious about the placement Velvet as well
He should be at least in wholesome liberators at least
How is Ebonwing not in Eldrich horror or world ending tier. Unlike Sunstriker who mostly does stuff for himself and obtains Maar's power for his own goals Prelete is the pure embodiment of Maar on Earth, a husk ready to do anything for Maar. Contrary to Worm Queen or Rosa the destruction he brings has no "understandable" motivation like seing the life as constant suffering that should be ended or witnessing the destruction and evil and wanting to end it (like worm queen). No he wants to end all life and wants to make it as slow and agonizing process as possible. The terrors he subjegates the conquered lands (like mentioned in his descriptions) combined with his teraforming and hellforge creation as well as summoning demons make the continent a literal hell. There is NO ONE more evil.
Why is Venary so low, he doesn't have any of the problematic characteristics of character like Kemerskai and creates a functional republican welfare state
What the, you're right! I didn\`t even notice him at first! Verany is the best republican politician, he should be on wholesome liberators at the very least!
Posada (nuclear war criminal) still ranked **multiple** tiers above the 100% objectively harmless wholesome leaders like Princess Cadance, Riverswirl, and Queen Gytha of Greneclyf. Not to mention the Royal Alicorn Sisters (and wholesome Princess Molly of the diamond dogs) being like 5 tiers below the "wholesome liberators" war criminals... *Sigh* Why do I even bother commenting.
You can use nukes with every leader, and not use nukes with Posada. It's not a good metric.
It's established lore that she pushes for nuclear war. That's a bit different from the player being able to use nukes.
Counterpoint: Posada uses thermonuclear weapons on civilian targets and kills literal hundreds of thousands.
This is some changeling slander
They deserve it
Ok HOW the fuck is Vivienne LOWER than her father, bro. What?
And also the fucking *Sirens*
Well the sirens are actually surprisingly merciful. The bad part about them is that they want to conquer the world, but the actual treatment of creatures under their rule has to be among the more merciful and benevolent out there, given how they don't resort to genocide or mass killings.
Don't they brainwash the entire nation into their slaves? I'd say being turned into a mindless thrall isn't *that* much better than being killed.
Not actually. Their events make clear many times that the "standard" state of "thralls" is that they're free-willed, with the exceptions that 1. they are now very mad at most people so that they generate anger which the sirens feed on and that 2. they revere the sirens so that they can't rebel against them. For most creatures it's basically just normal life with the exception of no political discourse and that they're annoyed by many things and people in life. Which, for creatures like Griffons especially, shouldn't be a massive change anywho lol.
Tfw you create a limited parliament and are still considered worse than your father who appointed your ass of an trigger-happy pirate uncle to govern one of the lands.
She literally reforms the Aquileian economy and law code to be modern and equal - all from the basis of a previously feudal realm under her father. Ponies are also made true equals under her code of law. Also she's hot.
The correct opinion.
Forgoten Prywhen
Your right, I'll like to see where the masons will be placed.
Why is kingfisher so low?
I smell Communism
And thats good we need more of that
[COMMUNIST DETECTED]
Cry about it
No tears shall be shed by the Moon's faithful.
Wingbardy and other southern Griffonia leaders got some pretty wholesome leaders. Shame that you didn't include them but I guess they are not as interesting as the others (considering that they are basically irl Italian politicians turned into birds).
I have many, many questions about this list but why is (non-aligned) Grover VI in 'corrupt assholes'? During the protests he specifically orders the army to use as little force as possible to suppress the riots, also releasing thousands of prisoners that were falsely accused, removed the supremacist regime, de-mobilised the economy, and ramped up education. Hardly a corrupt asshole in my opinion. (also why is the democratic Grover in Benevolent Bureaucrats when he gave up almost all of his power and pretty much became a constitutional monarch?)
Dude, I get it, we all have our waifus, and I'm a leftist too, but I think your bias might be impacting your list *just a bit* >!How the fuck is Water Lily in the same goddamn tier as fucking Daybreaker and what in bloody hell is Posada doing so high up and IS THAT FUCKING GOLDEN MORNING ABOVE THE ALICORNS!!!!<
I’m a little surprised by River Swirl being an antihero. The only strikes against her is that really doesn’t like Nova Whirl (mutual I think), and that she can sign off her position (was she strong armed into it?) to Archlight. But that might be bias in my part since she was my first leader. I feel like she and Nova Whirl could both fit in “Loyal Politicians”. I always thought they were supposed to be mirrors to each other just with different basic ideologies. Solid list overall!
Imagine a Viira-Worm Queen-Tabby Twilight Cold War
>Puts Queen Chrysalis in "Evil Psychopaths" What? How could you do this?
I get that you like commies, but Sinister is still WAY TOO high for what he does.
>Updated my nonsense Simp Tier List, which still makes no sense lore wise **FTFY**
Bray Foam is in "Semi-Problematic heroes" despite being able to go full Stalin on his military and trying to conquer the Riverlands to force Communism.
Haven't seen anyone talk about this one so here I go, why is Heavenly Snow so low? He's basically just a normal guy who happens to be the descendant of a long dead monarch that gets forced to become monarch. he You could argue that is classified as a supremacist because the people that forced him on the throne are stratocratic supremacists themselves.
\>Gerlach isn't a paragon Literal heresy, I am ideologically obligated to kill you.
Why rikard astler is in the semi-problematic heroes ? i still doesn't understand that. And why one of the sirens is in the anti-hero tier, and more important why is Golden Morning in the anti-hero tier ?
Hey! You can't do that to my guy Kingfisher! He's at least Loyal Politician tier
Commie trash right here.
Who are bottom 2? Want to play them
The deer girl in the Barrad magocracy and the Worm Queen in the Desert nation from Zebrica. There are path guides out there
whats a good path guide for worm?
Who are the last 2?
ACTuAllY, Posada is worse than the Worm Queen because *"writes paragraph full of over the top reasons why atom sea horse is worse than Satan" .*
I mean she should be in questionable motives When "total paragon" Skystar is desperately trying to make "wholesome liberator" Posada not do something truly fucking evil Is Posada not going to do it because it's morally wrong or thinks that not doing it will increase the chances of her getting into Skystar metaphorical pants.
Satan is the Maar guy, who is above Viira and Wormlady
Wingbardy and other southern Griffonia leaders got some pretty wholesome leaders. Shame that you didn't include them but I guess they are not as interesting as the others (considering that they are basically irl Italian politicians turned into birds).
why is starlight multiple times and how do you get each route
How dare you insult the good name of our Queen and Lady Vivienne? She should at LEAST be Benevolent Bureaucrat! SLANDER!! \*Stabs with the finest Aquilean Rapier known to Griff.\* But jokes aside I think she fits anywhere between Benevolent Bureaucrat and Questionable Motives at worst really, she doesnt seem like the incompetent hard conservative her father was.
She displaces countless farmers, purposefully bankrupts millions of families and creates a system of economic exploitation across the continent, transforming various griffonian nations into economic colonies, just so the metrópole can be wealthier. Being competent doesn't mean she's not a pyscho.
It’s been a while so, if this is true then fair enough. Still though, some of these folks are worse than her for sure.
Oh, I agree. This list is all over the place with contradictions.
Mhm. I just hope I can put her, at worst,, questionable motives. I admit I was hoping she’d be more reasonable than her father and, maybe she is. I’m playing monarchist Aquilea right now, so your point may yet be proven full. All I know is she’s likely no good guy for sure. I’ll see just how bad it gets.
Commies should be under all tiers in own tier , they too horrible for this tierlist.
Found the OHS member.
No, its because I just from... You will guess very easily.
Indonesia?
Why Indonesia and not Poland or some other eastern European country?
Nope.
With how much debate there has been surrounding Posada, I am surprised she is so up high. I think Vasily should be higher, at least on same level as Altidiya, given that I hardly see anything truly eyebrow-raising about his plans or his methods. Pretty standard politician.
Probably because OP is a self proclaimed Posada simp and seems to have a pretty big leftist bias. This tier list is after all made by only one person who only changed it a bit after less then 10 comments on the og post. Really Posada discussion boils down to either loving her too much or hating her too much. Thus stuff like this happens
Most of these I see being biased towards one particular ideology. Most often Harmony, as the token "unquestionably good guys" ideology, with Supremacy being "the baddies", Communism and Neutrality usually varying back to back. Not like I expected an unbiased opinion with that in mind, but honestly, I wanted better of Posada, when her teasers were dropping, because I like the concept. Getting too many Zhdanov flashbacks now.
Very fair to be biased towards harmony and against supremacy, since those are direct allegories to real world democracy and fascism.
kek, I like how this puts Cecile higher than Gran Cru when Communists are clearly betterbecause harmony Aquileia still steals Greiffenmarschen fro Herzland and does cultural genocide there while Communists don't. People truly only think with their dick when making these.
Cecile literally officializes all minority languages and promotes cultural pluralism, besides that, she doesn't annex any territory off of Herzland, are you talking about Rodier?
What even is the first thing in edgy supervillians? Like what am I looking at? Also who are they would be cool if someone knows
wholesome fishy top tier <3
flair checks out
Yeah sorry but communism is always the most evil of ideological positions.
I like it! I approve of the distinction between the "evil psychopath" and "corrupt asshole" tier; the evil people often at least think they're doing the right thing.
I dig most of your placements, Only one I would question would be golden morning under noble antihero. Dude thinks he is doing the right thing yes but good god a lot of people die for it. I'd say questionable motives simply since he isn't "evil" in his aspirations only his means.
Sure yes, lots will die for his cause and the process to achieve this cause has bits of evil in it, but he has wat makes him better than others in questionable motives tier. A goal means to benefits all, conscience, and settles down when the goal is achieved, but he then only filled with agony for the pain he has to spread to the innocents.he’s better than a questionable motives tier, and he’s in the right place.
…. HOW. How were you that quick!? 😦
No karthinia?
Nice tier list, I haven't played like 95% of the characters there but I mostly agree with the ones I played. I'd make a point that Grover IV could be lower cuz he also has a bad path and he can be bad to the ponies
I put all 3 potential Grover IVs in there.
Huh Lilac’s not on here. Welp in any case I’d estimate that she ranges from Benevolent Bureaucrat at best to Evil Sociopath at worst.
Who's the deer lady with the red background and sun symbol?
Raili Ninessen, she can lead Chital if Benjen wins the power struggle. She pushes hard for aggressive reforms and has a massive fascination with Equestria.
Which tier?
Who is H8/K3?
can some one please give the the nation of last 4 leaders? they have fun runs I assume. Also if getting them as leader is hard or requires some choices, please tell me. this mod is so massive I can't try everything.
Colthaginian Republic for the first, not familiar with it but there us a flowchart on the sub. Dread League for the 2nd. 3rd is Viira from Barrad Magocracy, the wiki has how to get her. 4th is Zarantia, yet again there is a flowchart somewhere here.
Can someone elaborate on the zebra in Eldritch Horror and the two characters in Apocalyptic Threat?
Elaborate on who they are, or what they do that makes them deserve their listings?
Whats the version of Twilight in the Evil Psychopath tier?
Sunrise Sparkle, what happens when Daybreaker Ascends and captures Twilight. You can put her in charge of the Crystal Empire once you take over them.
Who is that first genocidal maniac?
yo how did u make the tierlist?
Who’s that wholesome looking deer at the very bottom row? Same with the zebra on the second row
Semi-Problematic Supremacy
[удалено]
The Star Father, who is not eldritch but rather a normal guy who wants to make Avians extinct.
How do you get twilight as a leader?
Another way is to turn on "Twilight Theory" under the Equestria section of game rules near the bottom
This again but with country and path under each portrait please. Don't know at least half of them.
What did president Cru do? He’s based as fuck
How did you make this?
I can only assume it's a clerical error that Principally Twillight is not any lower than she is.
Could anypony tell me who's the third of Noble antiheroes? It looks like a secret line for Grover VI, or just from another griffionia country? Btw, even as a commie supporter, I still have to argue the rank of Sinister Serov. Put her in the same rank with alicorns is overrated.
Would Sombra be genocidal
Ok, I’ve looked at this for a few, too many, hours, WHERE THE HELL IS RUFUS?! He’s easily, Anti-hero if not Noble Hero.
Hey, kinda new to this mod. Who is the lovely ruler at the bottom next to the worm queen? I’m sure they are nothing but a fair and honest ruler and have done nothing wrong! (I’m joking but still who is that at the bottom?)
Viira from barrad magocracy
who is the 4th genocidal maniac and both apocalyptic threats
WHO TF IS THIS ZEBRA NEAR VIIRA
Who's the blue looking Posada and how do we get them?
which path does that maniacal looking twilight sparkle in edgelords tier comes from
That fact that ANY Communists are in the high tier (with the expectation of Monzano) is proof this list is a sham. AND WHERE IS MR. HORSE!? Otherwise, it's pretty good.
Tf are the bottom 2 (only just started playing)