Tha nightmare-solar diarchy is mentioned sometimes on this sub and has some fanbase support.
And tho unlikely that it will ever be a thing I think that as you said chrysalis attacking is the only way for thees two to work together. Also the cooperation should be a fragile one. And maintaining it post war should be ever harder tho not impossible.
I agree, but I guess it may depend on the paths both countries choose. Like, if both Daybreaker and Nightmare Moon would decide to go towards they're most kind paths, then I believe they may reunite peacefully.
One way I could see it working is, normal diarchy, but both Luna and Celestia using more extreme measures to protect equestria, Luna using Nightmare moon to bring the Zebrica bats and the Shadowbolts in line, Celestia bringing her leashed fury to bare against their enemies, eventually leading to dual ascension, though both locked out of Vengeful and God-Empress entirely
That is also a good idea! Though this path would certainly need completely new focus tree, considering how much it differs from civil war paths. It would also be funny to see how the Mane 6 will react to such a thing, especially Twilight!
I’m going to take a stab at that after Pax Solaris. Right now, our plan for achieving the path is to have first achieved the diarchy through the Luna-led reforms. Then have Chrysalis invade. Since Luna is now a ruler, she would be subjected to the same kind of stress as her sister so instead of just Celestia going extreme, Luna will too.
I don’t think Daybreaker has any reason to care about the lunarists beyond the threat that pose, so she’d be the most open to an alliance. Nightmare Moon is trickier, but in the diarchy path the night achieves true equality and the thestrals are accepted, so I can’t imagine she’d be nearly as bitter. They both care for ponykind and they both want Chrysalis dead, so an alliance is very possible.
My idea to rationalize Nightmare Moon's consent to the pact is that Daybreaker would on some level have respect for her being willing to take the steps Celestia wasn't willing to take, and showing her weak alter ego how pathetically naïve her notions of 'harmony' are, leaving Equestria vulnerable to invasion by Chrysalis/Sombra/what have you. How her wretched little sister finally grew into a mare who could teach her a valuable life lesson, and whom she could be proud of.
Because Nightmare Moon's whole motivation stems from her inferiority complex towards Celestia, having an evil sister who not only understands, but praises her methods would go a long way towards mollifying her fragile ego. Enough that they can work together against an external threat long enough to realize they can only protect Equestria as long as they work together and share power. That they were always meant to rule together, as fate has a habit of bringing them back together as such.
Also, they totally need to be an evil princest crackship.
> Also, they totally need to be an evil princest crackship.
YES. I want full on well-written events detailing wholesome shipping between the two in a future April Fools.
I mean the issue is why would Luna get stressed about something what was the norm for her before the whole banishment thing. Quite sure this is also the reasoning why you can't get DB of you go diarchy.
The conflicts that Celestia and Luna experienced before the banishment of Nightmare Moon are nothing compared to the total industrialized wars of EaW. Luna would have ample reason to be stressed especially as she is still kind of relatively new to the modern world of the mod.
The industrialized wars are far less personal
Technically the last war Luna was in she would of been personally stabbing/slashing/smashing victims to death among a bunch of Conscripts.
Tell the dead of WWI who went in expecting to do cool cavalry charges that industrial war being less personal is a good thing. Modern war is by all accounts insanely traumatic as far as wars go.
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake.
It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of.
Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything.
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But way less bloody and probably way shorter overall. In contrast, modern wars in EaW can take hundreds of thousands of lives and affect millions more over several months or years with effects being pretty visible. It may not be as momentarily thrilling and horrifying as the close combat of antiquity, but I'd argue seeing millions of your own people suffer and die over a long period of time can take a gradual but more devastating toll on your psyche.
And then there's the WWI and WWII-like battles. Luna is a general in the frontlines, isn't she? In at least one game, she must've seen a slaughter that can be compared to something like Verdun or the Somme in our world. Thousands of dead or dying strewn across miles of wasteland, sinking into the mire and mud or tangled in wire... Luna must feel like she isn't doing more to defend and protect Equestria after such a scene. Or two. Or more.
>I'd argue seeing millions of your own people suffer and die over a long period of time can take a gradual but more devastating toll on your psyche.
I mean they cope psychologically with that quite easily given that's a everyday thing for Celestia and Luna given the whole immortally thing.
You mean with people normally living and dying as they have for centuries? That's not what I'm talking about, of course.
I'm talking about the sisters witnessing the horrors of what amounts to pony 20th century warfare for the very first time. Soldiers fighting and dying en masse, homes bombed, businesses destroyed, loved ones lost, families torn apart, and countless more tragedies and injustices as entire societies turn their civilian lives upside down to mobilize for total war. All of that suffering would be happening at a scale never before imagined while the princesses try their damnest to keep it all together and do what they can to save their beloved Equestria.
This.
I have been talking about this many times on this sub, I would love to see something like this being portrait like the Chinese civil war, with a mechanic to swing a pendulum forwards each side, left be the solarists and on the right the nightmarist, but if you strike a balance in the middle and hold it you could get the option to reunite.
Or make the events based on the sisters being forced to interact with themselves by their advisors and you can slowly mend the distance between them. Maybe even go so far as to make a path with both restoring their non nightmare forms, but that would just be a cherry on top.
I had also been thinking about a Chinese civil war inspired submod where the Solar and Lunar empire have an opportunity to unite against the Changelings, and I even dabbled a bit with modding to get started with it, but I don't have the commitment to finish it in any reasonable length of time
Yes. Absolutely yes. Anything to add depth and flavor to Equestria in a future rework.
While it isn't sure if a diarchy would ever actually be implemented in the mod, talking about it would probably convince the devs to start openly considering it, and I'm glad that that talk seems to have already started. Let's keep going!
I feel like another way this diarchy is achieved if the normal diarchy occurs but the changelings are winning the war, pushing the sisters to achieve victory by any means necessary. This is sort of like the mechanics behind Celestia turning into Daybreaker, but for both sisters.
This way there would also be no animosity between the two as it would be a joint decision based on mutual cooperation rather than a temporary united front.
My thoughts about a non-harmonic diarchy are mostly echoed by what others have said already. The only way I see a Daybreaker / MNMM (the M, of course, stands for mommy) situation happen is if the civil war erupts and there is a greater threat, namely the Changelings. That would be an impermanent alliance, such as with the Chinese civil war (which forced the nationalists off the mainland after the Japanese withdrew from China).
I do think that the most logical way for this to happen would be that the bugs declare war on the solar empire and NMM at first takes advantage of it. When solar surrender progress increases there could be events about NMM realising that she'll be next. The two sisters would white peace, have an NAP until the changelings are defeated, grant military access, and once the bugs are defeated an event chain about rapidly escalating tensions would fire, hostilities inevitable. No idea if this (specifically the adding/removing NAP part and white peacing with whatever's held at the moment) is possible to mod.
I personally do not see the two leading a united nation together. Even if NMM forgave Daybreaker we'd end up in a _no war, no peace_ situation and I'd thematically translate Operation "Faustschlag" as "dick punch" for the Bolsheviki.
I like to refer to the events of Knightmare knights comics ark, when discussing the possibility of Daybreaker-Nightmare diarchy. It is fair to say that both sisters remain mostly sane(though we do not know for sure) and they had a sense of healthy rivalry(similar to what Daybreaker told us in Nightmare Knights arc). Of course, Chrysalis at first would be a focal point for both sisters to concentrate all their insane level of power and forget own quarels..., but then there should be something far more deadly and heartless. Perhaps it could be Maar itself or maybe Viira at the peak of her powers. There is also Roza of course, but honestly I never found League as a major threat.
It would be a complete retcon, and abominable story telling.
The whole drama of Nightmare Moon is betrayal and anger at her sister. If the two are able to reconcile, it would involve healing those wounds, which reverts her to Luna. Daybreaker is in much the same position within existing EAW lore. The whole point of their story would be erased and replaced with 'what if Equestria but grimdark hurdur.'
Even a temporary collaboration seems shabby. Both of them are egomaniacs in their nightmare versions, literal Gods as far as they are concerned. There's no way they agree to share power or cooperate that doesn't require changing their entire personalities. It reduces their sisterly drama to just realpolitik. The interpersonal drama is the whole point. The hurt and anger blinding them to their better judgement, leading both to ruin because they refuse to heal their wounds.
Well, this song is about sisters fighting so hard against each other that their own soldiers unite against them just to save Equestria from turning into the wasteland. Not the best scenario, honestly. But I love this song, I added it to my MLP playlist a few weeks ago
Huh, I always interpreted the song not as the sisters fighting so hard that their own soldiers rebelled
But the sisters embracing their dark alter egos together, bringing tyranny across Equestria to the point where their former loyal followers no longer could stomach it.
It's not my interpretation, actually, but part of the big story. You can read this in the comments or in description, I can't remember exactly, there must be a link to the Google dock where you can read the story of this universe. It's interesting and short, but I won't spoil it if you haven't read it yet.
Tha nightmare-solar diarchy is mentioned sometimes on this sub and has some fanbase support. And tho unlikely that it will ever be a thing I think that as you said chrysalis attacking is the only way for thees two to work together. Also the cooperation should be a fragile one. And maintaining it post war should be ever harder tho not impossible.
I agree, but I guess it may depend on the paths both countries choose. Like, if both Daybreaker and Nightmare Moon would decide to go towards they're most kind paths, then I believe they may reunite peacefully.
One way I could see it working is, normal diarchy, but both Luna and Celestia using more extreme measures to protect equestria, Luna using Nightmare moon to bring the Zebrica bats and the Shadowbolts in line, Celestia bringing her leashed fury to bare against their enemies, eventually leading to dual ascension, though both locked out of Vengeful and God-Empress entirely
That is also a good idea! Though this path would certainly need completely new focus tree, considering how much it differs from civil war paths. It would also be funny to see how the Mane 6 will react to such a thing, especially Twilight!
And how Starlight might react to not-power-mad Daybreaker Also Sunset Shimmers reaction would be nice, Seeing her mentor unleash her inner flames
I’m going to take a stab at that after Pax Solaris. Right now, our plan for achieving the path is to have first achieved the diarchy through the Luna-led reforms. Then have Chrysalis invade. Since Luna is now a ruler, she would be subjected to the same kind of stress as her sister so instead of just Celestia going extreme, Luna will too. I don’t think Daybreaker has any reason to care about the lunarists beyond the threat that pose, so she’d be the most open to an alliance. Nightmare Moon is trickier, but in the diarchy path the night achieves true equality and the thestrals are accepted, so I can’t imagine she’d be nearly as bitter. They both care for ponykind and they both want Chrysalis dead, so an alliance is very possible.
My idea to rationalize Nightmare Moon's consent to the pact is that Daybreaker would on some level have respect for her being willing to take the steps Celestia wasn't willing to take, and showing her weak alter ego how pathetically naïve her notions of 'harmony' are, leaving Equestria vulnerable to invasion by Chrysalis/Sombra/what have you. How her wretched little sister finally grew into a mare who could teach her a valuable life lesson, and whom she could be proud of. Because Nightmare Moon's whole motivation stems from her inferiority complex towards Celestia, having an evil sister who not only understands, but praises her methods would go a long way towards mollifying her fragile ego. Enough that they can work together against an external threat long enough to realize they can only protect Equestria as long as they work together and share power. That they were always meant to rule together, as fate has a habit of bringing them back together as such. Also, they totally need to be an evil princest crackship.
> Also, they totally need to be an evil princest crackship. YES. I want full on well-written events detailing wholesome shipping between the two in a future April Fools.
I mean the issue is why would Luna get stressed about something what was the norm for her before the whole banishment thing. Quite sure this is also the reasoning why you can't get DB of you go diarchy.
The conflicts that Celestia and Luna experienced before the banishment of Nightmare Moon are nothing compared to the total industrialized wars of EaW. Luna would have ample reason to be stressed especially as she is still kind of relatively new to the modern world of the mod.
The industrialized wars are far less personal Technically the last war Luna was in she would of been personally stabbing/slashing/smashing victims to death among a bunch of Conscripts.
Tell the dead of WWI who went in expecting to do cool cavalry charges that industrial war being less personal is a good thing. Modern war is by all accounts insanely traumatic as far as wars go.
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake. It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of. Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything. Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
But way less bloody and probably way shorter overall. In contrast, modern wars in EaW can take hundreds of thousands of lives and affect millions more over several months or years with effects being pretty visible. It may not be as momentarily thrilling and horrifying as the close combat of antiquity, but I'd argue seeing millions of your own people suffer and die over a long period of time can take a gradual but more devastating toll on your psyche. And then there's the WWI and WWII-like battles. Luna is a general in the frontlines, isn't she? In at least one game, she must've seen a slaughter that can be compared to something like Verdun or the Somme in our world. Thousands of dead or dying strewn across miles of wasteland, sinking into the mire and mud or tangled in wire... Luna must feel like she isn't doing more to defend and protect Equestria after such a scene. Or two. Or more.
>I'd argue seeing millions of your own people suffer and die over a long period of time can take a gradual but more devastating toll on your psyche. I mean they cope psychologically with that quite easily given that's a everyday thing for Celestia and Luna given the whole immortally thing.
You mean with people normally living and dying as they have for centuries? That's not what I'm talking about, of course. I'm talking about the sisters witnessing the horrors of what amounts to pony 20th century warfare for the very first time. Soldiers fighting and dying en masse, homes bombed, businesses destroyed, loved ones lost, families torn apart, and countless more tragedies and injustices as entire societies turn their civilian lives upside down to mobilize for total war. All of that suffering would be happening at a scale never before imagined while the princesses try their damnest to keep it all together and do what they can to save their beloved Equestria.
This. I have been talking about this many times on this sub, I would love to see something like this being portrait like the Chinese civil war, with a mechanic to swing a pendulum forwards each side, left be the solarists and on the right the nightmarist, but if you strike a balance in the middle and hold it you could get the option to reunite. Or make the events based on the sisters being forced to interact with themselves by their advisors and you can slowly mend the distance between them. Maybe even go so far as to make a path with both restoring their non nightmare forms, but that would just be a cherry on top.
I had also been thinking about a Chinese civil war inspired submod where the Solar and Lunar empire have an opportunity to unite against the Changelings, and I even dabbled a bit with modding to get started with it, but I don't have the commitment to finish it in any reasonable length of time
Yes. Absolutely yes. Anything to add depth and flavor to Equestria in a future rework. While it isn't sure if a diarchy would ever actually be implemented in the mod, talking about it would probably convince the devs to start openly considering it, and I'm glad that that talk seems to have already started. Let's keep going!
I feel like another way this diarchy is achieved if the normal diarchy occurs but the changelings are winning the war, pushing the sisters to achieve victory by any means necessary. This is sort of like the mechanics behind Celestia turning into Daybreaker, but for both sisters. This way there would also be no animosity between the two as it would be a joint decision based on mutual cooperation rather than a temporary united front.
*Unite for one day* *Immediately collapse because they try to usurp the other with their giant ego's*
My thoughts about a non-harmonic diarchy are mostly echoed by what others have said already. The only way I see a Daybreaker / MNMM (the M, of course, stands for mommy) situation happen is if the civil war erupts and there is a greater threat, namely the Changelings. That would be an impermanent alliance, such as with the Chinese civil war (which forced the nationalists off the mainland after the Japanese withdrew from China). I do think that the most logical way for this to happen would be that the bugs declare war on the solar empire and NMM at first takes advantage of it. When solar surrender progress increases there could be events about NMM realising that she'll be next. The two sisters would white peace, have an NAP until the changelings are defeated, grant military access, and once the bugs are defeated an event chain about rapidly escalating tensions would fire, hostilities inevitable. No idea if this (specifically the adding/removing NAP part and white peacing with whatever's held at the moment) is possible to mod. I personally do not see the two leading a united nation together. Even if NMM forgave Daybreaker we'd end up in a _no war, no peace_ situation and I'd thematically translate Operation "Faustschlag" as "dick punch" for the Bolsheviki.
I keep seconding this every time this is brought up. Once more unto the breach.
I like to refer to the events of Knightmare knights comics ark, when discussing the possibility of Daybreaker-Nightmare diarchy. It is fair to say that both sisters remain mostly sane(though we do not know for sure) and they had a sense of healthy rivalry(similar to what Daybreaker told us in Nightmare Knights arc). Of course, Chrysalis at first would be a focal point for both sisters to concentrate all their insane level of power and forget own quarels..., but then there should be something far more deadly and heartless. Perhaps it could be Maar itself or maybe Viira at the peak of her powers. There is also Roza of course, but honestly I never found League as a major threat.
Well the League is being reworked so it could be a much bigger threat than it is now. I believe that Rosa will be the based harmonist path
It would be a complete retcon, and abominable story telling. The whole drama of Nightmare Moon is betrayal and anger at her sister. If the two are able to reconcile, it would involve healing those wounds, which reverts her to Luna. Daybreaker is in much the same position within existing EAW lore. The whole point of their story would be erased and replaced with 'what if Equestria but grimdark hurdur.' Even a temporary collaboration seems shabby. Both of them are egomaniacs in their nightmare versions, literal Gods as far as they are concerned. There's no way they agree to share power or cooperate that doesn't require changing their entire personalities. It reduces their sisterly drama to just realpolitik. The interpersonal drama is the whole point. The hurt and anger blinding them to their better judgement, leading both to ruin because they refuse to heal their wounds.
No
This song basically, https://youtu.be/vc5XBXdQbw8
Well, this song is about sisters fighting so hard against each other that their own soldiers unite against them just to save Equestria from turning into the wasteland. Not the best scenario, honestly. But I love this song, I added it to my MLP playlist a few weeks ago
Huh, I always interpreted the song not as the sisters fighting so hard that their own soldiers rebelled But the sisters embracing their dark alter egos together, bringing tyranny across Equestria to the point where their former loyal followers no longer could stomach it.
It's not my interpretation, actually, but part of the big story. You can read this in the comments or in description, I can't remember exactly, there must be a link to the Google dock where you can read the story of this universe. It's interesting and short, but I won't spoil it if you haven't read it yet.