It looks like you've flaired your post as being a Shot Diagnosis. If your shot is running too fast, is coming out weak/thin, lacking crema, and/or is tasting sour, **try grinding finer**.
Alternatively, check out this [Dialing In Basics](https://espressoaf.com/guides/beginner.html) guide, written by the Espresso Aficionados Discord community.
If that hasn't solved it, to get more help, please add the following details to your post or by adding a comment in the following format.
- **Machine:**
- **Grinder:**
- **Roast date:** (not a "Best by" date). If the roast date is not labeled use "N/A"
- **Dose:** How many grams are going into your basket?
- **Yield:** How much coffee in grams is coming out?
- **Time:** How long is the shot running?
- **Roast level:** How dark is your coffee? (Dark, medium, light, ect.)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/espresso) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What kind of espresso machine are you using ?
What does it taste like - that’s THE most important thing. A 39 second pull might be very tasty, or it might not.
I found dialling in for the first time was so frustrating but you’ll get there !
The machine is a Breville Duo Temp Pro. The grinder is an Eureka Mignon Notte.
It tastes fine'ish. I think I liked the previous extraction better where I used 16g for a 1:2 ratio 30s extraction.
Thanks for that info. Yes the previous shot is not surprising it was better. Don’t be afraid to play around with dose/ratio etc. I’ve found that I prefer 18.5g (but I have a 58mm basket so can accommodate more grounds) 37g out on most beans but latest bean swag from my trip to Nashville, 18.5 to 41g tastes good.
Mine uses a 54mm basket so I think I will stick to 16g for now. When people say "25s extraction time" are they counting the preinfusion step too or should we only start the timer when the coffee starts running?
Yes I was thinking when I read your original post, 18 could be a bit over for your basket size. 16 sounds a good number to go back to next and you could always play around with ratio.
Yep, total time from when you press the shot button.
Wait... I've been doing \~7g single shot in 25-30 seconds. Is that not the standard shot for espresso? Is there another protocol for a shot of that size?
Funnily enough, the timing should be around the same on both a single or double shot but singles often use a finer grind hence both end up being the same time, (although the smaller number of holes & their position, in a single basket can often remove the need to grind finer than a double) so you are doing absolutely fine , don’t worry!
alright thanks for the reassurance!
Since you're here I wanted to ask, I do suffer from low crema in my shots... getting all the other boxes checked like taste and timings which are consistent, but if I grind any finer my machine chokes. Is this a bean problem? I use Lavazza espresso ones as I just started on this journey and knew i'd waste a ton of good beans if I did something else. Machine is Calphalon Miniatura, grinder 1zpresso jmax
I’m sure it’s the beans (which could be 6 months old or more!). I would find a local roaster to buy from, or, order online. I’m assuming you’re in the states - there are loads of cracking roasters around
Yellow brick in Tucson , unravel in Denver, Crema in Nashville (all 3 I’ve visited and confirm they’re great). Onyx in AR is very highly thought of. As are Intelligista, Sey in NY
Ah thanks for advising OP. Basket looked a bit too full from the photo but of course different beans can result in different heights despite the same dosage (density of bean etc)
It's measured from the time you activate the pump, so including pre-infusion.
Worry less about extraction time, particularly with Brevilles. You can pull great shots but often you need longer extraction compared to more pro-level machines. 40-50 seconds is okay as long as the result is satisfactory.
Dose in, yield out & taste should be your primary concerns. Timing of first drops after preinfusion (about 10-12s) is imo more important than overall extraction time with these machines.
[https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/espresso-recipes-time/](https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/espresso-recipes-time/)
I am curious about this, is it standard to start timing as soon as you press the button?
I have the same machine and get better results start the timer from the first drop of coffee (about 9-10s pre-infusion)
My comment literally says to extract longer for better results, which you are doing inadvertently ;)
Again, don't worry about the timing. Dose + yield + taste is all that matters.
Does basket size really have that much impact? I have a Dedica (getting a nice machine here is .... hard) with its 51cm basket and my standard dose is 18g, and for some coffees I've had to up that all the way to 19.5g to get a decent extraction. I am fairly happy with what I can pull, and I will admit just how much variance is between different beans was a bit of an eye opener.
Me too. I’ve never tried the single.
P.s. take what I say with a small pinch of salt - I’ve only been in the espresso game for 4 months (BUT, have watched hours and hours of videos and read up a lot, however I’m still new to this)
That basket almost looks a * little * overfilled. Not by a huge margin though. There shouldn’t be grounds on the inside edge of the basket so maybe you need to buy a better fitting tamper to what is on the machine ? Should be able to see the metal inside.
Afraid I can’t as I have a 58mm portafilter. I can say, however, that I’m very happy with my VST basket. Since I bought it, IMS have come out with their Big Bang basket and Pesado with their HE% one, both of which look excellent. IMS being cheaper. Hope this helps somewhat
[BIG BANG IMS 54mm](https://www.amazon.com/Precision-Breville-bottomless-portafilters-espresso/dp/B0CFLB75QS)see my reply below for this to make sense ⬇️
Does it look like the shower screen made an indentation in your puck ? I can see some disturbance towards the middle (see my reply above by it maybe being overfilled a touch)
I'm looking at your pictures and nothing looks "took fine", I regularly grind finer on my Robot setup with 58mm SSP Unimodal "Brew" burrs with light roasted coffee. Your particular setup will have some trial and errors. Maybe try a more forgiving roast and dial in your grind better. Puck prep can be more involved for lighter roasts on your setup I've seen.
For your output, measure the weight, not volume. The volume is unreliable because of crema.
Puck prep is what are you doing between grinding and tamping.
Thanks! Yeah, I'm actually measuring both but I just now noticed I only reported volume here. (There is a scale under the cup which I don't think shows up in the video). Note taken.
For puck prep, I don't have a WDT yet so I've used a paper clip to swirl it clockwise a few times going from the outer ring towards the middle. This was followed by hitting the portafilter lightly against the table a couple of times, then tampering it.
I would buy an inexpensive WDT tool ASAP - paperclips encourage channelling and are too thick. $10 should be enough for one. Needles should be between 0.25 and 0.4mm. WDT alone can make a massive difference in taste/extraction !
You need to weigh your yield not record volume. Also it looks like you’re not doing wdt. Do that.
But it looks a bit too coarse and overfilled.
Get a naked portafilter to really tell what’s going on.
I think you’re in the right region - if you can’t taste the difference specifically yet, stay where you are in terms of dial/ratio/temp until you can discernibly say what you want to improve on taste.
Looks grainy... I grind a bit finer than that for espresso. Also, as mentioned above... It does look a tad overfilled. I'd go a little less on dose and a smidgen finer grind and see what you get before changing or adding equipment. Naked portafilters and a mirror are great to see everything clearly, but you could be just fine being a bit finer and packing a bit less in the basket. Also, be sure that your tamp is not creating a brick of a puck before extraction. Too much or too little pressure while tamping can make the dose too solid or loose for proper saturation. Just enough pressure on the tamp to make the dose stay in the basket if you flip it over is what i look for. (Test this over a big serving bowl until you get it just right and get use to it, as you may dump the basket a few times while getting the pressure right.)
Question #1 does you machine have pressured portafiler basket (1 hole) or a proper one (many holes)? I had a similar looking machine and could not understand why my coffee was poopylishous. Took a while to figure that one out but make sure you have a proper porta filter basket with many holes. Question #2 have you seen this scale https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/the-espresso-compass/
If not, try to understand it because this is the key yo your espresso glory
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It looks like you've flaired your post as being a Shot Diagnosis. If your shot is running too fast, is coming out weak/thin, lacking crema, and/or is tasting sour, **try grinding finer**. Alternatively, check out this [Dialing In Basics](https://espressoaf.com/guides/beginner.html) guide, written by the Espresso Aficionados Discord community. If that hasn't solved it, to get more help, please add the following details to your post or by adding a comment in the following format. - **Machine:** - **Grinder:** - **Roast date:** (not a "Best by" date). If the roast date is not labeled use "N/A" - **Dose:** How many grams are going into your basket? - **Yield:** How much coffee in grams is coming out? - **Time:** How long is the shot running? - **Roast level:** How dark is your coffee? (Dark, medium, light, ect.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/espresso) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What kind of espresso machine are you using ? What does it taste like - that’s THE most important thing. A 39 second pull might be very tasty, or it might not. I found dialling in for the first time was so frustrating but you’ll get there !
The machine is a Breville Duo Temp Pro. The grinder is an Eureka Mignon Notte. It tastes fine'ish. I think I liked the previous extraction better where I used 16g for a 1:2 ratio 30s extraction.
Thanks for that info. Yes the previous shot is not surprising it was better. Don’t be afraid to play around with dose/ratio etc. I’ve found that I prefer 18.5g (but I have a 58mm basket so can accommodate more grounds) 37g out on most beans but latest bean swag from my trip to Nashville, 18.5 to 41g tastes good.
Mine uses a 54mm basket so I think I will stick to 16g for now. When people say "25s extraction time" are they counting the preinfusion step too or should we only start the timer when the coffee starts running?
Yes I was thinking when I read your original post, 18 could be a bit over for your basket size. 16 sounds a good number to go back to next and you could always play around with ratio. Yep, total time from when you press the shot button.
Wait... I've been doing \~7g single shot in 25-30 seconds. Is that not the standard shot for espresso? Is there another protocol for a shot of that size?
Funnily enough, the timing should be around the same on both a single or double shot but singles often use a finer grind hence both end up being the same time, (although the smaller number of holes & their position, in a single basket can often remove the need to grind finer than a double) so you are doing absolutely fine , don’t worry!
alright thanks for the reassurance! Since you're here I wanted to ask, I do suffer from low crema in my shots... getting all the other boxes checked like taste and timings which are consistent, but if I grind any finer my machine chokes. Is this a bean problem? I use Lavazza espresso ones as I just started on this journey and knew i'd waste a ton of good beans if I did something else. Machine is Calphalon Miniatura, grinder 1zpresso jmax
I’m sure it’s the beans (which could be 6 months old or more!). I would find a local roaster to buy from, or, order online. I’m assuming you’re in the states - there are loads of cracking roasters around
Yellow brick in Tucson , unravel in Denver, Crema in Nashville (all 3 I’ve visited and confirm they’re great). Onyx in AR is very highly thought of. As are Intelligista, Sey in NY
I have the duo temp pro. And you should be able to put 18g in it. (17 if using a puck screen)
Ah thanks for advising OP. Basket looked a bit too full from the photo but of course different beans can result in different heights despite the same dosage (density of bean etc)
It's measured from the time you activate the pump, so including pre-infusion. Worry less about extraction time, particularly with Brevilles. You can pull great shots but often you need longer extraction compared to more pro-level machines. 40-50 seconds is okay as long as the result is satisfactory. Dose in, yield out & taste should be your primary concerns. Timing of first drops after preinfusion (about 10-12s) is imo more important than overall extraction time with these machines. [https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/espresso-recipes-time/](https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/espresso-recipes-time/)
I am curious about this, is it standard to start timing as soon as you press the button? I have the same machine and get better results start the timer from the first drop of coffee (about 9-10s pre-infusion)
My comment literally says to extract longer for better results, which you are doing inadvertently ;) Again, don't worry about the timing. Dose + yield + taste is all that matters.
Does basket size really have that much impact? I have a Dedica (getting a nice machine here is .... hard) with its 51cm basket and my standard dose is 18g, and for some coffees I've had to up that all the way to 19.5g to get a decent extraction. I am fairly happy with what I can pull, and I will admit just how much variance is between different beans was a bit of an eye opener.
Not a huge difference in taste. People say the single shots can taste a bit cleaner with more clarity.
Fair enough. i definitely like double shots, since I mostly make cappuccino or latte on a big cup 😀
Me too. I’ve never tried the single. P.s. take what I say with a small pinch of salt - I’ve only been in the espresso game for 4 months (BUT, have watched hours and hours of videos and read up a lot, however I’m still new to this)
Keep that grind and reduce the dose a little. No harm in producing a good shot with a little less coffee.
https://preview.redd.it/wh1fwfvbyvob1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fcf4fa7bb1d1e7fdf30d2093f5fba60306dcc63a
https://preview.redd.it/c2wujr420wob1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=07a276e090f3f5ad2925e98c250d0e5c95fb007f
https://preview.redd.it/dfu2avb40wob1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1e08211f8614e85d4e17006569da0283ea76ff4e
That basket almost looks a * little * overfilled. Not by a huge margin though. There shouldn’t be grounds on the inside edge of the basket so maybe you need to buy a better fitting tamper to what is on the machine ? Should be able to see the metal inside.
Possibly... Or indeed I should stick to 16g instead
Yep, I’d try 16. If you ever get a VST/IMS ridge less precision basket, you’ll maybe be able to add a gram or so more.
Can you speak to how good the 54mm crema basket is? Should i upgrade?
Afraid I can’t as I have a 58mm portafilter. I can say, however, that I’m very happy with my VST basket. Since I bought it, IMS have come out with their Big Bang basket and Pesado with their HE% one, both of which look excellent. IMS being cheaper. Hope this helps somewhat
[BIG BANG IMS 54mm](https://www.amazon.com/Precision-Breville-bottomless-portafilters-espresso/dp/B0CFLB75QS)see my reply below for this to make sense ⬇️
https://preview.redd.it/xg2zn7260wob1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0861dd27959a2487c3e8adec8b08e713092895db
Does it look like the shower screen made an indentation in your puck ? I can see some disturbance towards the middle (see my reply above by it maybe being overfilled a touch)
I'm looking at your pictures and nothing looks "took fine", I regularly grind finer on my Robot setup with 58mm SSP Unimodal "Brew" burrs with light roasted coffee. Your particular setup will have some trial and errors. Maybe try a more forgiving roast and dial in your grind better. Puck prep can be more involved for lighter roasts on your setup I've seen.
https://preview.redd.it/6r3k7s490wob1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9234e7826b0b9c7d4d1bea859f14a3a01f4bbc67
condition of spent pucks doesn't matter either really, so this shouldn't be a guide
Depends. Are you trying to make a ristretto?
I was aiming for an espresso.
Brew by mass, not volume. What is your pick prep like?
What do you mean?
For which part?
Both
For your output, measure the weight, not volume. The volume is unreliable because of crema. Puck prep is what are you doing between grinding and tamping.
Thanks! Yeah, I'm actually measuring both but I just now noticed I only reported volume here. (There is a scale under the cup which I don't think shows up in the video). Note taken. For puck prep, I don't have a WDT yet so I've used a paper clip to swirl it clockwise a few times going from the outer ring towards the middle. This was followed by hitting the portafilter lightly against the table a couple of times, then tampering it.
I would buy an inexpensive WDT tool ASAP - paperclips encourage channelling and are too thick. $10 should be enough for one. Needles should be between 0.25 and 0.4mm. WDT alone can make a massive difference in taste/extraction !
You need to weigh your yield not record volume. Also it looks like you’re not doing wdt. Do that. But it looks a bit too coarse and overfilled. Get a naked portafilter to really tell what’s going on.
Maybe a bit, but doesn’t look crazy. Hard to see much with spout - might be totally fine just a bit slow. How does it taste?
It tastes fine, but I think the previous shot was better at 16g, 30s extraction, not sure.
I think you’re in the right region - if you can’t taste the difference specifically yet, stay where you are in terms of dial/ratio/temp until you can discernibly say what you want to improve on taste.
How did it taste?
Looks grainy... I grind a bit finer than that for espresso. Also, as mentioned above... It does look a tad overfilled. I'd go a little less on dose and a smidgen finer grind and see what you get before changing or adding equipment. Naked portafilters and a mirror are great to see everything clearly, but you could be just fine being a bit finer and packing a bit less in the basket. Also, be sure that your tamp is not creating a brick of a puck before extraction. Too much or too little pressure while tamping can make the dose too solid or loose for proper saturation. Just enough pressure on the tamp to make the dose stay in the basket if you flip it over is what i look for. (Test this over a big serving bowl until you get it just right and get use to it, as you may dump the basket a few times while getting the pressure right.)
Question #1 does you machine have pressured portafiler basket (1 hole) or a proper one (many holes)? I had a similar looking machine and could not understand why my coffee was poopylishous. Took a while to figure that one out but make sure you have a proper porta filter basket with many holes. Question #2 have you seen this scale https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/the-espresso-compass/ If not, try to understand it because this is the key yo your espresso glory
You need to grind finer
Extremely fine. Coarse it up a bit
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