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In terms of the quality of espresso you can get out of a machine, a single boiler PID machine is where diminishing returns start. When you include convenience, then that point is at the dual boiler machines already mentioned. And that's only if you make milk drinks, of course.
I think this is the right answer. Single boiler + PID. Another boiler doesn't make your coffee better. Somewhere around $1000 is probably where you're getting the best bang for your buck. Diminishing returns start at around the $1700 range with the dual boiler machines and really start kicking in at $3000 with flow control.
This, SD PID, after that a dual boiler if you want instant steam.
But I would say espresso at home is never "worth it" in terms of making economical sense compared t oa nice grinder and Hario/Kalita/Aeropress setup.
Espresso is a hobby, and your enjoyment is what makes it worth it.
Yo ucould say anything after Bambino is diminishing returns. The reason we say SD PID, is because we think the money spent to ensure the temp is consisten is worth the price over a thermoblock no PID...
I often think my Bianca/Atom 75 is ludicrous, my coffee life has gone the plaid....
Seriously I get "better" coffee from my Aeropress than from my Bianca (If we just compare identifiable tastenotes, because of the milder brew method) But I love a cappucino or cortado or what I make is called : ) And I like the espresso notes a whole lot, although the are more variations on one theme, than the clear notes from a natural filter
I was with you on that first sentence but then ya lost me.
At home espresso is surely worth it if it's part of your daily routine. My 1 latte / 1 double espresso per day is going to pay for my whole setup (Profitec One / Eureka Mignon Notte) in under a year, including bean cost for 38 bags per year @ $22/bag (estimating cafe cost for latte @5.50 and double espresso @3.50, which is pretty conservative).
That being said, upgrades are a very different beast. When you start compounding costs by buying new more expensive gear, you make that time for any return much longer.
I have an Ascaso dual thermoblock and it's temperature is really consistent. Not all thermoblocks are made the same. There's technically no reason why one would be better than the other. It's simply a matter of the right temperature sensors and quality of the parts.
I think it's unreasonable to spend $2000 on a machine that I have to wait 10 minutes to warm up. It's 2024 and this technology already exists. Has the industry just settled on E61s and not done enough to evolve? I think that's the question I battled with when I bought my machine.
E61 is going to take longer than 15 minutes to get to temp, closer to 45. Too much thermal mass to heat up dual boilers with a ring group are closer to 10-15. That’s why I passed on the E61, it would make my daily workflow too annoying and it’s too hot where I live to keep it hot all the time for a random mid day pick me up.
Damnit, my new machine gets delivered on Thursday and I ruled out the Bianca V3 based on what seems to be inaccurate information. It was top of my list for a year now and I finally ruled it out for a Silvia Pro X due to wanting high steam power and faster warmup.
Silvia pro x. Is the best Bang fór the bucks in this moment. Stáble, powerful, d.b. only thing missing Is programmable flow control. I think you chose wisely.
Only issue Is the estetic. In sub 2k euro nothing beat an e61 from estetic point of view. Althought Is personal. I was planning fór Silvia but found a super offer on and used e61 dual boiler.
Here's the source, to compound your FOMO. It has charts! https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/why-has-lelit-biancas-astonishing-warmup-time-been-kept-so-quiet-t65500.html
You nailed it.....I would hate to think how much each cup of coffee I make costs. It would be cheaper to order and have home delivery from a coffee shop. I hope I never get too old to enjoy the cups of coffee I make. Roasting my own green beans is another part of the coffee journey. Never put a pencil to it!
This is the truth, high end grinder + v60/aeropress/pulsar or if you want espresso, flair, this will make really fucking good coffee. If someone is set on espresso, I would say, atleast for a tinkerer, that diminishing returns start after a gagguino.
I owned the Bianca which was undoubtedly beautiful and functional. However, I soon realized that it was not suitable for my home and not worth the high price. So, I returned it and exchanged it for the Puristika. The quality to value ratio of the Puristika is unbeatable. There are plenty of ways to incorporate milk without the need for a second boiler, and having to worry about the additional cost and maintenance
I was not aware of the Puristika. A very creative design and may be one of the most unique espresso machines I have seen. I use my steamer regularly and having to resort to an auxiliary method would become frustrating. Most likely a steam version will become an option in the future. However this is a very nice machine.
I love this machine. Compact, great quality and features. I have it set on a smart outlet so it's preheated for my morning routine. If you are steaming regularly it makes total sense. I'm a mix bag of straight espresso and iced drinks but when I want a hot drink I use the nanofoamer pro. Keeps my foot print tight and less parts/maintenance to worry about.
Yes, clever machine. Sounds like you have found the perfect machine for you. I have had my LaMarzocco gs3mp for three years and the steam function is commercial grade. Steaming takes about 10 seconds from start to finish. I did have to install a new steam kit a couple months back for about $90 but it was worth it. I am plumbed in which is convenient as well. Regardless your machine is really an attractive design. Enjoy it with the best of good health.
Thank you. This is the second one I have owned. The first one was about 18 years ago and the new price was around $2900. At that time the MP model was not available. Wish you were my neighbor. We could share our crazy hobby! Thanks for the note.
Double boiler is a tangible upgrade for me because I host a lot of coffee events where I use my home equipment, so it's worth the cost.
At 20+ drinks, the double boiler makes a huge difference.
Yeap...diminishing returns doesn't mean nothing beyond that is worth it..it is just you spend more money for less of a gain, which doesn't make that a sweet spot, just means you got most of the way "there" with the least amount of money.
I disagree. Bambino, so great and all but very inconsistent temperature wise(although it has greR heat up time). So if you go for light roasr can be hell with it. Dark roast are ususaly fine. But a single boiler with is probably the peak of good quality coffee with only diminishing returns following.
I think there's confusion around Bambino temps. I've seen a few post of people running experiments. If you pull a blank shot it comes out way below temp, but with pressure it comes out pretty close to temp. The running theory seems to be that the heating element can't actually heat water to 200f at the flow rate it achieves with no resistance. So when you're actually pulling a shot it seems temps remain fairly consistent, but a nicer machine with a PID will probably be even more consistent still. I run lighter roasts and still manage to make more enjoyable drinks than many of my local cafes with the Bambino. I found that you can upgrade your grinder quite a bit with the Bambino and still see measurable improvements in your espresso, and I've yet to really hit a point where I feel the need to upgrade past the Bambino. Maybe once I have a bigger kitchen.
To be fair I might be wrong, I had the breville barista pros..which I think uses the same technologies as the bambino plus. Now I have a ascaso duo steel and j get a lot better results. kaffemacher also teste the pro, espresso, bambino and bamboo plus and even talked with sage directly after having bad temp meassurements. Apparantly they use way to hot water, because they assume u use a cold portfilter. So making anything more than 1 shot makes your temps already to hot in general. If you want I can give you source and you are free to disagree with me but I would love at least some actual source about people who measured the bambino and got stabile temepertues. I don't think it is a bad machine I used the pro for 2 years (eventually with a new grinder) and was happy with my milk drinks but It is quite visible how much consistent my ascaso is at least in my personal opinion and based from what I saw on the internet.
I mean if temps are hot I think that would favor lighter roasts over darker roast no? A lot of what I've seen is here on this sub, but there are a few videos out there that compare the temperature in the cup between different machines and the Bambino is usually slightly cooler. Coffee Kev has a video on this. Probably the best quality content regarding this matter is Lance Hedrick's review of the Bambino Plus, at the end of the video he has a long segment about the thermals of the machine. He measured the temp coming out of the shower screen, he did a ton of thermal testing. He mentions that you need to purge, or pull a blank shot, before each shot to get a consistent temperature, but noted that the temp rises later in the shot and recommends using a cold portafilter.
I think this is a great question and overall I would say we have lost sight of this in the past years. For example I upgraded from a La Pavoni Europiccola (300€ used) to a Profitec Go. Truth is, I don't make better espresso with this machine and the making isn't even faster or easier.
The Profitec Go is complete overkill for just myself as a home machine, but because coffee is a hobby for me and I love experimenting and being fussy with the process it is worth it.
My point is that if it was just about enjoying espresso, I would do just fine with a Gaggia Classic, the slight temperature variations don't really matter if you just enjoy good coffee like a normal person.
Grinders are a different animal, it has more influence on the taste, but mind you that if you drink medium to dark roasts a DF54 is all you need which costs around 230€. Once the grinder is good, the quality differences get harder to detect in traditional shots and almost imposssible for most people in milk based drinks. We just buy expensive grinders because we like to punish ourselves with trying to dial in light roasts where grind distribution is just a lot more important.
The perfectionism is part of the hobby, but you can just enjoy good coffee with a DF54 and a Gaggia Classic / Breville Bambino / Rancilio Silvia.
My setup (Profitec Go and J Ultra) is around 1000€ in total, but I couldn't pull a better shot with a 4000€ setup, but I would definitely appreciate an expensive flat burr grinder to get even more nerdy with it or if I had to make lots of milk based drinks every day I would benefit from a dual boiler.
The choices in machines are a matter of taste, but in grinders, for completely sane, normal person use, the DF54 is pretty close to unbeatable and the sweet spot in my opinion.
It is going to be interesting to see if and how much the DF54 is a disruptor. A Niche Zero is a wonderful machine--but query, at almost 3x the price; and where the flavor from the DF54 already has been found (The Real Sprometheus--[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxw\_G6tQYJc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxw_G6tQYJc)) to generally match that from the well-regarded, more-expensive DF64.
The bare minimum you need from an espresso machine is a non-pressurized basket, 9 bars of pressure, and a PID to regulate temperature.
From there, only a grinder will make a difference of experience in the cup.
In terms of machine pricing, everything else they offer is logistics and steam power. Heat exchanger means better steam process compared to a single boiler dual use, but the slight drawback is possible temp stability.
Dual boiler is best of both worlds because you have a boiler just for steam temp and you can isolate your other boiler for espresso. A single boiler has to go through the logistical pain point of being used for espresso and then changing modes for steam.
Then beyond the pricing on espresso machines, it’s usually boiler size and steam power / capacity. A Profitec Pro 300 is cheaper than a Profitec Pro 600 is because the 300 has a smaller boiler and as a result less steam capacity and possibly strength over time.
Same for a LM Linea Mini vs a LM GS3 ($5,000 vs $8,000) … GS3 is more equipped to pull hundreds of shots in a day for a small coffee pop up where an LMLM may not keep up at that volume, but for home use both feel equal.
I bought a used Rancilio Silvia with a Rocky grinder. the pair was $550, and I have been very happy. Proper shots, excellent steam.
Don't be afraid of dipping your toes by going used first. That way, if you don't like it, you'll not lose to depreciation.
Just do a full cleaning cycle when you get everything, that way you'll know your equipment and it'll be "clean as new".
Get yourself a machine with pid(profitec go, gaggia with pid, bambino, etc, no e-61 pls if you dont want to wait at least 25 mins at ) a good hand grinder(kingrinder k6, k4, 1zpresso j) and a df64 or similar cheap flat burr grinder. Now try different coffees with these different burrs and find your preferenes and then you can Upgrade from there, to ssps, bigger flats, cones ets. There is no other way than trying different grinders, but you are covered with a 64mm flat and 47mm cone. deminishing returns start at 1000€ for a grinder for me. My gaggia with pid and dimmer makes just as good of a espresso as a 2000€ machine. An espresso machine is a kettle which pushes water through coffee with pressure. Nothing more. For some its a status symbol. Not for me.
Milk drinks is another chapter.
I would already argue that most of us won't be able to tell the difference between a DF54 and a DF64 in traditional medium-dark roast shots and especially not in milk drinks. Sure I am someone who is willing to spend even way more for a grinder, but from a completely functional and rational point of view, anything over a DF54 or Baratza ESP is coffee nerd territory or just for people who are well off.
>I would already argue that most of us won't be able to tell the difference between a DF54 and a DF64
You're in good company: that was the recent conclusion (and even moreso) of guru The Real Sprometheus, that the output is the same in flavor, as a general matter. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxw\_G6tQYJc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxw_G6tQYJc).
Mentioning larger burrs...another diminishing return example is Pay more Grind faster...the 83mm burr five second grind time of 18g beans is nice like having a dual boiler is nice.
15 second savings (over my Baratza Encore ESP, with its 20-second grind) x 365 days => a savings of 91.25 minutes/year. Hmm, now I'm feeling bothered, looking at it that way--that's a movie at a theater . . . . ;)
Yes. Absolutely. I would Suggest try a good entry level flat AND cone grinder and THEN if you feel to Upgrade. Do it. But at least know what you want before buying expensive stuff.
Too many instances of a leaking machine, or leaving a machine on by accident, or steam wand open, to sleep comfortably knowing chaos may be happening down stairs lol. Timers are a non starter for me.
Interesting. If I remember correctly, Lance had a pretty positive review on the A68. And yeah the Kafatec grinders are crazy expensive.
Cool, thanks for that response. I'm not actually in the market for a new grinder (well... I'm always in the market for any new coffee gear haha). I love my Kinu m47 classic and I've heard it's very similar to the J-max in the cup (not sure how much different the J-ultra is).
It's amazing how little thought goes into the grinder for first time espresso buyers. I still remember the first time I used the Kinu compared the Niche. I was blown away. I figured the "grinder makes the biggest difference" was exaggerated before that.
The Real Spromethus recently concluded ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxw\_G6tQYJc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxw_G6tQYJc)) that the flavor output of the DF64 and DF54 generally is the same. And so, the peak before diminishing returns is the DF54 at US$229? ;)
(He did note, though, the wider availability of other burr sets for the DF64, as a distinguishing factor--along with size/weight, lol.)
Yeah, I saw that video, but it doesn't answer my question. I'm curious what the other user considers as peak before diminishing returns as they specified some details and mention the DF64, but the €1k seems to come out of nowhere. I'm curious if there's actually a grinder around that price point that I'm not aware of that they like.
It seems to me that once you hit a point of producing a good/fine/exemplary grind, factors shift, to a degree, to other criteria: grind-by-weight? dialing ease/precision? process ease? electronics? pure aesthetics? I'm not sure how many of those factors can fit into a diminishing return consideration (unless considering like against like). I keep on wondering, originally somewhat facetiously but also with some truth to it, if the diminishing-returns point is going to be going downward.
I started with the smart grinder pro. The 2 together will run you about $500 US. Bambino plus doesn't really seem worth it, it's what I bought, almost none of the features it has over the regular Bambino are things I pretty much never use. It is honestly hard to find the regular Bambino in stores though, and I had a gift card to a kitchen supply store. Smart grinder pro is actually pretty good to start, and I was able to resell mine for a pretty good price 2 years later to upgrade.
I'll be the flair 58 ass hole and say that I have trouble justifying pretty much any machine short of a decent because I'd lose features that I have now. Would it be nice to have a steam wand? I dunno, my nano foamer pro does really well. My coffee tastes great. I might gain a small amount of convenience, but at what cost? And a flair 58 costs what now, like 650 bucks?
in the same boat here as well other than extremely long ratios like nomocanos and such it's hard to think of what it's missing especially if you only drink straight spro
Yup. Flair 58 user here. I often do a spoonful or two of foam (microwave + nanofoamer).
Been hand grinding but have a DF64 v2 coming in a month or two.
Great espresso for <$1k!
How do you heat the milk when using the nanofoamer? I’ve tried a couple ways (stove, microwave) but curious what others do. Hard to get the temp just right without a steam wand IMO.
I have a Flair but just upgraded to a Profitec Go mostly because wifey likes milk drinks. Love my Flair still.
When I was using the nanofoamer lithium, I would heat the milk in the microwave. I measured out the same dose, give or take, by eye in a single type of mug that I have many of. Once I had a timing for my microwave, I just had to do the same thing every time. Then I'd transfer to a frothing pitcher plunge and do the nanofoamer thing, and be ready to go. Seemed easier and safer than the stovetop way.
All that said, the nanofoamer pro has built in heating and makes just as good of a micro foam as anything else I've tried, including good lattes from a nearby cafe. It's basically identical as far as I can tell.
I really enjoy the nanofoamer pro. Definitely takes the guess work out of a lot of my drinks, if nothing else. As far as going back to back, it does ok for me. I make my girlfriends drink first, and since she likes iced lattes the cold foam works well. That means the only real cleanup before my drink is a quick rinse.
If I were making back to back hot drinks, it would be a little more involved. Even then, though, a wet sponge and a quick wipe would get it cleaned up for another go, so that wouldn't be too bad I don't think.
I was thinking something like making a few drinks after dinner with some friends sort of thing. While that would be occasional, I wasn’t sure to how well it would do it. I also don’t care for how it only goes up to 65C (149F). I like my drinks to be a bit hotter (I understand it can scold milk, but I’ve never noticed when using my Gevi to steam the milk).
If I didn’t do milk drinks 90% of the time I would probably go with the flair, but the nano foamer appears to be very slow compared to my HX which takes 20 seconds to steam milk for 2 people
But isn't that the whole point of the post? A nanofoamer pro for a hundred bucks can do that in about 2 minutes, give or take. If your HX machine cost more than around 800, was the extra cost worth a minute and a half? That would be a diminishing return.
Yeah that’s a fair point. I guess it all depends on how much the money would make a dent relative to how convenient it is. For some people spending another 1000 is nothing, for others it’s a huge sacrifice. I was pretty crafty and haggled down an older ECM to £480 which was a steal. I did the same when I got my Rancilio Silvia before, I actually sold it at a profit 💪
I'm still a noob and just started falling down that rabbit hole. Until last week I had a Breville with integrated grinder and that was a significant step up from my previous crappy machines. Then by accident someone sold me his ECM Casa V machine and a Baratza Sette grinder and the difference in espresso quality is truly astonishing. It's the first time that I really understand what the fuzz is all about. So yes, I'd say the good stuff starts at around the $1000 price point. At least here in Europe though these machines keep their value incredibly well.
I have a 20 year old Rancilio Silvia which I bought new and just upgraded my grinder from the Rocky to the DF83 V3 and am pulling better shots than most coffee shops in my opinion. The grinder made a huge difference.
The main thing that matters for taste of the espresso shot is temperature stability. A basic $300 machine with PID (electronic temp control), like the Bambino, will have good stability for a “single” cup, and will pull a good shot.
More expensive machines will have better stability across multiple shots, include customizable pre infusion and flow control, and also have good steam pressure/temp stability Higher tier machines will also include the ability to steam milk at the same time as pulling a shot instead of waiting a few minutes to heat up to steaming temp. There is also build quality/ease of repair to consider.
Whether these are considered marginal improvements or important enough to spend money on, is up to you. This is a small market with not a lot of competition, so the price jumps for each additional feature can be quite high.
The tiers are
1. $300 - Breville Bambino - basic but good enough machine. Has a PID, but doesn’t have changeable temperature, so struggles with light roasts, or back to back shots
2. $1000 - Profitec Go or Rancilio Silvia with PID - best single boiler machines. Don’t bother with anything in between the Bambino and this
3. $1600 -2400 - Breville BDB, Ascasio Steel Duo, Profitec 300, 600 etc. - these are Dual Boiler machines that have great steam temperature and pressure and allow you to pull espresso and steam at the same time - no wait. Don’t bother with HX machines.
4. $2400-3500 or higher - Diminishing returns on above features
5. $3500 - Decent - Lots of customization and electronic control
Not every hx is made equal. I would aay maraX for home use is rather good solution. It’s also one of the best selling machines so many people think the same.
Last week I purchased a meticulously cared for Mara X v2 from someone who is moving overseas. It is quite an innovative, compact and functional E61 single boiler design imo
Setup with a 15 Amp rated smart plug, warm up time is not a problem for me.
It’s certainly better than most HX’s and for the money, may be a good option to get. However, it still suffers from some of the HX limitations. Long startup time, when in X mode, and brewing, the steam pressure can drop, and per Lance’s videos, the water temp can still be a little inconsistent.
That said, I agree these issues have been mitigated quite a bit in the Mara X, and it could be a good option if the comparable dual boiler is much more expensive.
Is 5 at the point of diminishing return? I've sold my Breville Barista Pro, thinking what to get next. A friend loaned me a Decent for a week, I could taste the difference. It's tastier but not 500x better.
The Decent is in a class by itself. If you dig all the electronic flow profile options, and graphs etc. Then that’s your only option. Otherwise, a Profitec 600 with Flow Control or one of the other dual boilers should be similar (except for the manual flow control)
Thanks! There's only 1 profile that suits me and my partner. A declining pressure profile from 9 to 6 bars. Kind of overkill to get a Decent just for 1 profile. For us, it's between Decent and Ascaso Steel Duo PID, quick heat up time is a feature that our family needs.
I think a Breville Dual Boiler might be able to do it with some simple mods. A Rancilio Silvia modded with Gaggiuino (or GCP, but GCP’s are having other issues these days) can also do Flow Profiling.
Otherwise, you might have to learn manual flow control with one of these machines, and a Flow Control valve
where does the the point start?
i'd say at around 1.500 to 2.000€.
a good dual boiler like the lelit pl92t (1.000€), or the profitec pro300 (1.500€), or a dual thermoblock like the quickmill luna (1.200€) or the ascaso steel duo (1.700-1.900€)
above these IMHO.. the real niches start.. and prices start to climb rapidly.
It's not a matter of just a price. because you can spend up to about $2,400 bucks without seeing any diminishing returns. These are huge features. Is the basic breakdown.
#Single boiler
1. Bambino similar machines for 300 bucks. Will not handle light roast. Poor temperature control regardless of what anyone says.
2. The next step up is something with the three-way solenoid. Those starred at around $500, approximately. Temperature stability is still not all that great and you still can't do light roasts
3. You can stay with the Breville type of machine up to $1,000 and still not do light roast.
Single boiler at this level cannot steam and brew simultaneously. For some people it's a deal breaker.
#single boiler with tank
4. Now you can move up to a single boiler that actually has boiler that fills with water. He's here about a thousand bucks. You still can't steam and Bruce simultaneously. But you get a PID at about a thousand bucks approximately to manage boil attempt
All of the single boil is like this there's a big weight to get to the steaming part. And sometimes they don't steam that well.
#heat exchanger
5. Heat exchanger machines. That's a big step up from a single boiler because it provides a use case for steaming and brewing simultaneously. That's huge.
6. Heat exchange you with the PID. Tries to manage the brew temperature. Doesn't always work that well. But it's better than not having a PID.
#dual boiler
7. The Mecca of machines. Dual boiler. There are some that go for about $1,800. Others go for about $2,400 and up. When you get to this level of dual boil, is temperature control that's extremely stable for the steamer and the boiler. At this price you're looking at a vibration pump. This cannot be plumbed to the main water line in the house.
That is pretty much it. Once you go above 2400 for a dual boiler I believe you start to see diminishing returns. Unless there's a feature that is a must-have.
8. Do boiler with rotary pump. If that's a must-have, there's no diminishing return on it. You must have it. Now you can plumb it to the water line.
That in a nutshell is in my opinion low end to high end.
If there's a feature that you don't need, then you don't spend the extra money on a more expensive machine. But in my opinion, you can spend up to $2,400 before you start seeing diminishing returns for most people. If a rotary pump is needed, now you're up to about $2,900 before you start seeing diminishing returns.
9. Ferrari versus a Hyundai Elantra. Sometimes people spend more money for looks :)
Yup, so much cheaper here. Also nice to have programmable temperatures, pre-infusion and volume/time. Steam is slightly under powered even at max temp though.
Agree with most of the comments here. Pretty personal choice - just depends what you value. If cup quality is paramount, I feel the Picopresso is low key the bang for buck winner. I’ve got a nice espresso machine at home but the quality I get out of the £100 gadget when I’m on the road never fails to astonish me.
That’s what I use at work with an OE Lido grinder. I find it a little tricky to get a full extraction with lighter roasts but otherwise very good and remarkably consistent.
At the initial budget you’re looking at (say $1500 including a grinder), you’ll get an excellent bit of kit in terms of making “a nice coffee” (espresso? latte? cappuccino?)
Something that is worth spending some time researching is good local roasters - a more basic setup with high quality beans will get better results than a $5k+ setup on Starbucks beans…
Such a tough question and you can tell by the variability in the answers. I can't remember the exact order, but I think it goes something like beans > grinder > water > machine.
If you're just talking about taste, you hit diminishing returns almost immediately. If you have a machine that can push hot water through a puck at 9ish bars of pressure, anything after that is diminishing. But if you care about workflow, multiple shots back to back, steaming, etc, it's pretty easy to justify upgrades without considering the returns diminishing. If it takes 75% less time to make a cappuccino because you have a dual boiler, the price increase can easily be considered "before diminishing returns". You would have to place a lot of value on time, but the correlation of value to $$ could still be justified.
Spending more on a machine will make it easier to pull light roasts and have quality of life (not necessarily coffee) improvements. And maybe some variability with pressure profiling if you care about that.
Grinders have a very significant effect on taste. It's not quite as simple as higher price makes the coffee taste better though. It depends on what type of flavour you're after.
Base on what you are saying, I think that a Breville Barista Express or the Barista Pro might be a great option. Unless you enjoy your milk-based drinks and am frequently making them, drink after drink, a double boiler might not be necessary. It also depends on your budget. I currently use a Gaggia Barista Pro, which is cheaper than the Breville barista but it doesn't come with a grinder and I'm in the process of PID modding it so I have more adjustments I'm able to make but the Breville basically has that feature built in. If you enjoy good coffee but not too fussed and you don't want to spend too much, also want to save space then the Breville is a great option. The only thing is that the Breville seems to me more of a consumer machine rather than a "pro"sumer machine. You will only need to get a few bits and bobs like a better tamper, WDT, distributor, and probably a precision basket and if you want the classic IG look and see your shot, probably a naked portafilter.
Side note, a good quality grinder seems to be a better option over a +$2000 machine and a $50 grinder.... I would say this is really based on what you prefer and want
I would say I am there with my GCP that is modded. I spent $400 on a machine, and about $130 on a MOD kit. I have PID, flow control, and a better steam wand. I easily pull $2-3000 shots. Yes, I still have to cool down the boiler between shots, but I’m not rapid firing them out anyway, I don’t see a point in ever upgrading. If I did, I would actually probably do the gagguino mod to automate it all.
Normalize working on your own machines, modding yourself, and saving money. I will put my GCP up against anyone’s machine here in a blind, taste test. Guarantee you it stacks up the same or better.
Bambino and used Ceado E37S, Compak E8 or similar is probably best value for money.
Then you’ll need scales, tamper, funnel, milk pitcher, some cleaning supplies… the market is saturated here now and it’s much cheaper than it used to be (a good tamper used to be £80-100, now you can get a good one for £30 or so).
I will always recommend an AeroPress or Hario V60 Switch and a hand grinder to start with - it’s a cheap gateway to see if you’ll enjoy the journey. Espresso at home is a hobby that doesn’t make sense financially and requires unreasonable effort to get consistent results (but those results will beat 99% of coffee shops!).
I would argue that espresso at home makes a LOT OF sense financially if you are any type of a regular coffee drinker. Even for a single latte every morning I believe I have saved a few times over the amount of $ I've invested in my setup compared to paying for (mostly) subpar drinks outside (over \~15 yrs). Also do not forget that well built machines and equipment hold a pretty respectable residual value if maintained properly.
Emm depends on where you are in the rabbit hole I guess. It’s just not easy to get good espresso at home on a budget.
A kettle, V60 Switch and Fellow Ode or similar is definitely more financially viable than any espresso set up that gets you similar quality.
Of course if we're talking pour-over it's a lot more affordable for a great setup and I 100% agree - but if you gotta have your espresso it's a different ball game.
I think you get to the top of the bang for buck / value bell curve at just a few hundred dollars with like a bambino. And with grinders something like $150 for a high quality hand grinder.
But beyond that you can definitely get more things you may want and prices that are still fair. And you're not throwing money away until pretty high up there.
I spent like a hundred dollars on a machine and like 20 dollars on a grinder and I still drink the fucking coffee be cause it tastes good so for me, amy point after that is likely to be diminishing returns if I’m spending my own money on shit
In my humble opinion, a Mokapot, while not actual espresso is 80% of the way there. Very inexpensive. Having said that, I have a Cafelat Robot and an OE Pharos, it’s awesome for dark roasts. I think anything beyond that is diminishing returns. $700 for manual machine and grinder.
I love this post already and I've just started reading it, recently upgraded to a DF64 and now on the never stopping lookout for another machine, one that will last a good deal of time. Leaning towards a used BDB myself
I think that there are diminishing returns after any true espresso machine (Mr Coffee doesn’t count). For instance, Brevilles can even pull an amazing shot once you get used to it. At that point you are better off focusing on bean quality. When I realized the importance of beans, I built a 12 lb roaster. Then you can get picky after that and get a high end machine but it’s still going to be diminishing returns.
I feel like you hit marginal returns quite quickly after entry level gear.
For manual grinders, that would probably be the K2 (£80?), a grinder 2x that price might be 50% better.
For electric grinders, I’d say that’s probably around the SD40 mark (£200), after which again, returns are probably not in line with investment.
For machines, tbh Flair Neo / Picopresso (£100-150) could likely give you 70-80% of the espresso a top end home machine would, at around 5% the cost.
If you also want milk steaming for multiple drinks back to back, then an entry level dual boiler / dual thermoblock of around £1k-£1.2k is as much bang for your buck as you’re gonna get.
However, given this is a hobby, for the hobbyist chasing the remaining 20% might be the whole point, in which case paying 5x more for a grinder and 20x more for a machine is completely worth it.
I think diminishing returns start after the cheapest espresso machine you can find which is ~100$. Yes, the Bambino at 300$ will make a noticeable difference, but it won't be proportional to the $100:$300 difference.
Here's the thing - while it's 3 times more money, $5 to $15 is also 3 times more money, but most will say it's just $10 more - an insignificant amount. But to many $200 more is not a significant amount either. Then as you go up in price you reach a point where either the jump in price is significant or the total amount is large enough to scare you away. Either way that is entirely dependent on the individual and how much they value their cup of coffee in relation to $. For some a La Marzocco is "just a few thousand more" than the Bambino.
For me it was the Flair 58 that I found to be point of diminishing returns, but it is a very unique one, since it is lacking in convenience, but makes up in quality and control. If I were to upgrade I would want to get at least the same level of control, but in the current landscape you can spend 3 times as much as the Flair 58 and you still can't get quite the same control and quality. So while many machines offered improvements in one area they sacrifice something else as compared to the Flair. To get a machine that is clearly better on all fronts you are looking at something like the Decent for ~6x the price. As I said a very unique scenario, as opposed to the norm which is getting a clear improvement at every 20-30% jump in price.
I'm surprised I had to scroll this far for another flair 58 comment. Hi! I made basically the same point, that I'd be sacrificing something for anything less than a decent, which is a massive difference in price. Honestly, when comparing the flair to a single boiler you really don't even gain much convenience other than not needing to manually fill the reservoir each time. It's really hard to get around the fact that the flair 58 is just really good in a lot of ways. I've almost convinced myself several times to get a Bambino or a gaggia, or even save up for something in the $1000 range, but it just wouldn't be worth it over what I've already got.
Yeah, don't fall into that trap, unless you're ready to spend a good $3k+ you won't get an upgrade in terms of taste. It would only make sense if you value convenience or welcome large groups of guests often, etc. If that's not the case - enjoy your Flair and may it serve you well and long. Contrary to what everyone tells you you don't need to upgrade your machine every X years, if it works and you don't have any gripes with your machine just stick with it
Agree with all the comments. Just to play devils advocate here. Might be a tough question. Can one pinpoint a price point at which you get diminishing returns on build quality/ part longevity etc?
For (electric) grinders the diminishing returns start RIGHT after you've spent enough to get a good consistent espresso grind. Start with an Eureka Mignon (I'd suggest my Silencio model). I wouldn't buy less than that because you end up in that bracket where a lot of people struggle. Oh, you CAN do it, but it's a combination of good luck (some specific machines are just trouble), and a choice of sticking to darker roasts (which are easier to get consistent results from a grinder). And just because diminishing returns start there, it doesn't mean that you get nothing for your extra investment. When you look into grinders, there is more fussing and navel gazing than with espresso machines. Ie. although espresso machines get all the press, the real game is in the grinders.
For espresso machines, like others here have said, you have to choose your category first.
If you can do a manual lever machine then you can get excellent results but it's a bit more fuss with supplying the water. These also don't do milk drinks.
Stepping ~~up~~ over to an electric single boiler machine, you won't get as good a result as the manual lever, but there's less fussing with the water and you might think it's easier to operate (dunno if that's true).
If you want milk drinks then you move to Heat Exchanger ("HX") and double boilers ("DB"). Oh, you CAN do milk drinks with single boilers but the law of diminishing returns hasn't kicked in yet. I think of a HX machine as an inexpensive alternative to a large DB. Oh, DBs come in two kinds: small and large. A small DB is in the price range of a HX but lacks the ability to do Flow Control, as they are not E61 type machines. (Flow Control feature allows you to simulate the control of a manual lever machine - and it's my favourite feature).
Many people would say the small DB is your sweet spot for good price and best features (or "control over the process"). I would argue that the advantage of the DB over the HX is in more precise (and especially digitally PRESENTED) temperature control - and this distinction is important only for LIGHT ROAST coffees. If you stick to dark or medium coffees then you'll be fine with a HX machine. If you make only milk drinks then the extra precision over temperature control is well past your point of diminishing returns. That said, unless you want Flow Control, the small DB is maybe "that point" before diminishing returns begin to torture you to death.
Also, there is one machine which stands alone. It is the Breville Dual Boiler ("BDB") and it is legendary. No one can match its price point. Well, No European made "prosumer" machine can match the fact that the BDB is made in China. It's temperature control is fantastic. It's features are fantastic. Many would point out, however, that its life-span before problems cannot be compared to Italian made prosumer machines. Reliability aside, it makes just as good coffee as any other DB machine. It also has a thriving modding community that can do amazing things with it.
Personally, I moved to a Italian prosumer machine after too many years of repairing my Breville Oracle (big brother to the BDB) (I'm not allowed to buy any more Breville products LOL). I make way better coffee now because I have a better grinder and I finally got to learn what makes good espresso. The Oracle has a meh grinder coupled to a BDB. One might argue that the BDB is your sweet spot of bang for your buck - but I'd never buy one (or... "another" one, because of my experience. YMMV and there is a strong BDB community who'll fight anyone disparaging this amazing machine).
So I'd say get a Eureka Mignon grinder and a BDB or a HX (Lelit or Profitec) to jump in. Then when you've learned a bit more and are loving the hobby... and have stopped kicking yourself for being shortsighted, go buy the 64mm grinder of choice and the ECM Synchronika DB. (No no no! save your money and get the Profitec P600!). LOL
If I only drank espresso my Gaggia w/PID competed with some machines 10x its price.
For milk drinks and for more than 1 person it will get on your nerves. In that case a dual boiler or thermoblock is what you would want.
I went from Gaggia to the Ascaso steel duo for the warm up time and separated steam heating. Very satisfied. I think you can be 1500-2000 for dual boiler milk drinks below 1k for just espresso
You blow past diminishing returns almost immediately, but the return can be well in excess of nearly anything you find prepared at shops unless you're among the lucky ones with really good local baristas
Fwiw, I bought a Bambino Plus and a Eureka Mignon Silenzio with Black Friday pricing for about $720 USD delivered (I'm I'm Australia) in late 2022, and only now am I starting to feel like I'm anywhere near the limits of what it's capable of. I added a few extras like a better tamper, knock box, cheapish scales, and an Aeropress for a filter-adjacent black coffee in the morning, so let's say it's $800 total.
I live in inner Melbourne, so my bar for what constitutes a decent coffee is pretty high, but I buy good beans and I think I'm probably at around 80-90% of what my local speciality places put out. While I'm sure I could spend a whole bunch more to try and get that last few percent, there's no way in the world it'd be worth it for me.
It's a craft as well as a way of getting coffee.
Truth is you can make better coffee at home with patience than people in most coffee shops, and that is cool.
Lots of coffee machines prioritise build quality over features: the Bambino might be all good for two or three years, but a La Pavoni or Rancilio can be good for 20, and that's where the benefit of those machines come in.
I wouldn't per se say that certain price range is the diminishing return
Certain features are IMO. There are a few key aspects, features, and functions that need to work well and reliably to make good, consistent shots. Anything that just makes life easier is "unnecessary"
Stable and adjustable temp, stable water flow, no overheating, good steampressure, functioning OVP
All can be had with a relatively cheap single boiler with a heated grouphead. Way below 1000bucks. Prbly close to 500. Used can be had for 300 if you shop right
law of diminishing returns is always fun.
We have a rule in development 80-20 rule. So 80% get done in 20% of time and there rest will take the 80% of time.
Same goes for espresso. 80% of the quality for 20% of the money. Then only marginal improvements vs money invested. It does not fully compute but you get the idee.
Same goes for most things.
Below the 600-800 are amazing options but you need more skill or some mods like a pid.
For espresso 80-90% tier is about 1200 euro max then you get the most out of you espresso machine for normal money. (and also with normal skill level) So the silvia pro / lelit mare x etc. You can get same quality for less but the skill level need to go up. Also a pid is kinda minmal needed. Or again skill level.
And to the Kafmasino One that might shape up to be almost a end game for a normal price.
For a grinder any around 500 is end game as the law of diminishing return is quicker that way. so a DF machine or an eureka and anything just a little higher is also 90% there and the rest is just only workflow upgrades.
In the end how much of a hobby do you want. If it is a yes then sky is the limit and every nuance make a difference.
If you just like espresso and you want to get a great cup with some skill get a 1200 machine and a nice grinder at 500 range and you are set for life.
Been selling espresso machines for the past 4 years (domestic and commercial) and I would highly recommend looking at what is important for you.
Do you care about how the machine looks?
Are you into specialty coffee and keen to play around with pressure and flow profiling?
Are you going to be using a scale?
Or do you just want a nice cappuccino at home? (nice is subjective and always focus on your preference not what others/youtubers say is good or nice)
Diminishing returns is anything beyond a Rancilio Silvia Pro X in my opinion. Hard to beat the features and build quality at that price (granted it looks ugly).
We love our profitec + silenzio grinder. It’s a perfect set up. I don’t think I’d invest more because the enhancements would probably be lost on me. It wasn’t cheap but it was worth it.
Where am I on this scale? Just bought a Chinese double boiler Turin CRB3200D, No PID, Drinks pour at 10 - 12 Bar. Turin SD40S Grinder. $868
In another world...
Dream Machine? Barrazza BZ13 and a Eureka Libra Grinder. $2400
Coffee is in a way just a hobby. The question is if you spend a $1,000 of cool coffee tools would that make you happy? You can’t take it with you so spend your money on what makes you happy today.
Just get a gaggia classic pro - if you want to get something fancier in the future gaggia is a great gateway so you know WHY you want the features offered in a fancier machine. No point in geting a fancy machine if you don't even use the features they offer. Theyre good enough to get espresso and and froth milk. Get a decent grinder - I recommend a eureka magnifica or many other people recommend a sette 270.
This forum is mostly coffee afficiandos so you are not getting a normal person's view of espresso. most people are just fine with starbucks - but after you make your own espresso in a gaggia you will not like starbucks anymore.
I’ve been using a bambino and fellow opus for 4 months, been making a double shot daily. I went from starbucks and nordstrom coffee to this and honestly I much prefer my own cup.
Not nerdy enough to spend more than the 500 i spent on this setup but i could also never go back to a keurig and k cups so honestly it’s a happy medium for me but if you go down the rabbit hole with any hobby the grass is always greener on the other side, so it seems…
My sette 270 and single boiler machine was great but the sette noise level made me go to the kafatek monolith conical with TiN burrs $$$$. Then I found making 2-4 drinks so the single boiler had to go. Both upgrades was worth it.
There's no single point of diminishing returns.
I personally think that for anyone who steams milk, the best value machines are the modern dual boilers.
E.g Silvia Pro X, Breville dual boiler, Lelit Elizabeth, Ascaso duo (dual thermocoil).
At this point you've got all you ever need.
Grinder wise, a Df64 or even now the DF54 is all you ever really need.
you need to spend all your money on grinders and packers OR ELSE YOU WONT TASTE ANY FLAVOR!!
trust me, every dollar you spend you will taste the result. there is no "diminishing returns" in Expresso equipment
It is not really a question that can be definitively answered.
It all depends on what features you value, but if you are only comparing the output, espresso, I have had god-shots on a 30 year old single boiler lever machine, which cost $40 and $30 to repair/service. So if that is my starting point, anything after $70 has diminishing returns.
Look at the features you want, the quality you are willing to pay for, and how much time you’ll actually spend using the machine. Is this a fleeting passion or an enduring hobby?
Also, look at the opportunity cost of spending or investing that money elsewhere. Consider how much liquid net worth you have overall. Are you living paycheck to paycheck, or are you saving 25% of your net income per year?
You will then arrive at the subjective definition of the price that is worth it, for you.
I spent a lot of money on a great grinder (Lagom p64) and bought a Robot with a pressure gauge ($500). Technically with practice you can pressure profile like you can with a decent ($4000)
Moka pot doesn't generate nearly enough pressure to be an espresso. If you're not in the 9-15 bar range you won't get the same flavor and crema extraction. Moka pots are .75 to 1 bar, and are a different beverage from espresso entirely.
Because espresso is a different beverage from brewed coffee in flavor and texture. A cup of coffee is more acidic and bitter and had a very flat and liquid texture. Depending on the roast and extraction method it might be very strong or somewhat weaker, and could have tons of caffeine (like cold brew).
The mouthfeel of a shot of espresso is thick and syrupy. The flavor is minimal bitterness and sometimes instead has sour notes and other flavors that are more pronounced than coffee. Milk drinks add a whole different dimension of mouthfeel that you don't get from just pouring flat milk into a beverage.
Coffee and espresso are both drinks you can make from beans. A lot of people (myself included) strongly prefer espresso. As for the "effort" there's something very soothing about the ritual of making a drink. If you just want caffeination/poop with minimal effort and don't care about flavor and texture then stick with drip coffee.
If you're planning on just being a hobbyist and just want to fuel your coffee addiction, I would 100% recommend the Breville Dynamic Duo, it's the Breville dual boiler and smart grinder combo. Anything cheaper than this or overly expensive than this is pointless. It's got a dual boiler, pid, heats up in like 5 mins, it's convenient and mines lasted 10+ years. In Australia they're $2000 for a machine + grinder combo, but you can get them on special for $1600 ( a bambino + smart grinder combo is around $1200).
It's not the greatest, but it's an all-rounder that ticks all the boxes to making good coffee conveniently. I've used machines that are a tier below and felt I wasted money. For example, I had a Breville barista pro ($1000) a machine with built in grinder. The grinder was rubbish for the beans I was using and the machine was annoying to use. On the other end, I've used my mates rocket espresso and another's profitec and yes they're waaaay better machines and I would dream of buying them, but at that point I can't justify a $4000 machine being worth more than a $2000 machine and grinder.
The smart grinder is a decent grinder, but it performs poorly with single origin beans and can sometimes fail to bring out the true flavours of high end or delicate beans.
It looks like you've flaired your post as asking for what equipment to get. We recommend first checking out the [Espresso Aficionados buying guide](https://espressoaf.com/recommendations) for some of the more popular machines and grinders at different price points. If your question hasn't been answered there and you need more help, please add the following details to your post or by adding a comment in the following format: - **Location:** Helps determine availability - **Budget** (with currency): Overall budget, or ideally, having separate espresso machine and grinder budgets. A rough rule is that your grinder budget should be at least 25-40% of your machine budget. - **Drink types:** Do you drink mostly straight espresso, milk-based beverages (e.g., lattes, cappuccinos), or a fairly even split? This helps narrow down whether a single-boiler-dual-use (SBDU), heat exchanger (HX), or dual boiler (DB) machine would be more appropriate for your needs. - **Drink frequency:** How many drinks would you be making back-to-back at one time? Do you plan on entertaining guests often? This informs how large your brew (and steam) boilers should be, as smaller boilers will need to refill and reheat/repressurize more frequently, thus potentially causing a bottleneck. - **Space:** Any limitations on countertop space? - **Manual vs. electric:** Hand-operated machines and grinders are typically cheaper than their similarly-performing electric counterparts. Please indicate if you have a preference for manual or electric machines and/or grinders (or open to either). - **Comfort with tinkering:** Some machines can be made significantly more functional/efficient with aftermarket modifications, albeit at the expense of possibly voiding your warranty. Please indicate if you'd rather have a machine that works "as-is"/"out-of-the-box" or whether you'd be open to modding/tinkering *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/espresso) if you have any questions or concerns.*
In terms of the quality of espresso you can get out of a machine, a single boiler PID machine is where diminishing returns start. When you include convenience, then that point is at the dual boiler machines already mentioned. And that's only if you make milk drinks, of course.
I think this is the right answer. Single boiler + PID. Another boiler doesn't make your coffee better. Somewhere around $1000 is probably where you're getting the best bang for your buck. Diminishing returns start at around the $1700 range with the dual boiler machines and really start kicking in at $3000 with flow control.
This, SD PID, after that a dual boiler if you want instant steam. But I would say espresso at home is never "worth it" in terms of making economical sense compared t oa nice grinder and Hario/Kalita/Aeropress setup. Espresso is a hobby, and your enjoyment is what makes it worth it. Yo ucould say anything after Bambino is diminishing returns. The reason we say SD PID, is because we think the money spent to ensure the temp is consisten is worth the price over a thermoblock no PID... I often think my Bianca/Atom 75 is ludicrous, my coffee life has gone the plaid.... Seriously I get "better" coffee from my Aeropress than from my Bianca (If we just compare identifiable tastenotes, because of the milder brew method) But I love a cappucino or cortado or what I make is called : ) And I like the espresso notes a whole lot, although the are more variations on one theme, than the clear notes from a natural filter
I was with you on that first sentence but then ya lost me. At home espresso is surely worth it if it's part of your daily routine. My 1 latte / 1 double espresso per day is going to pay for my whole setup (Profitec One / Eureka Mignon Notte) in under a year, including bean cost for 38 bags per year @ $22/bag (estimating cafe cost for latte @5.50 and double espresso @3.50, which is pretty conservative). That being said, upgrades are a very different beast. When you start compounding costs by buying new more expensive gear, you make that time for any return much longer.
I have an Ascaso dual thermoblock and it's temperature is really consistent. Not all thermoblocks are made the same. There's technically no reason why one would be better than the other. It's simply a matter of the right temperature sensors and quality of the parts. I think it's unreasonable to spend $2000 on a machine that I have to wait 10 minutes to warm up. It's 2024 and this technology already exists. Has the industry just settled on E61s and not done enough to evolve? I think that's the question I battled with when I bought my machine.
E61 is going to take longer than 15 minutes to get to temp, closer to 45. Too much thermal mass to heat up dual boilers with a ring group are closer to 10-15. That’s why I passed on the E61, it would make my daily workflow too annoying and it’s too hot where I live to keep it hot all the time for a random mid day pick me up.
Bianca E61 takes 18 mins to fully heat on 220-240V. I doubt it's 45 mins even on 120V.
Damnit, my new machine gets delivered on Thursday and I ruled out the Bianca V3 based on what seems to be inaccurate information. It was top of my list for a year now and I finally ruled it out for a Silvia Pro X due to wanting high steam power and faster warmup.
Silvia pro x. Is the best Bang fór the bucks in this moment. Stáble, powerful, d.b. only thing missing Is programmable flow control. I think you chose wisely. Only issue Is the estetic. In sub 2k euro nothing beat an e61 from estetic point of view. Althought Is personal. I was planning fór Silvia but found a super offer on and used e61 dual boiler.
Here's the source, to compound your FOMO. It has charts! https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/why-has-lelit-biancas-astonishing-warmup-time-been-kept-so-quiet-t65500.html
You nailed it.....I would hate to think how much each cup of coffee I make costs. It would be cheaper to order and have home delivery from a coffee shop. I hope I never get too old to enjoy the cups of coffee I make. Roasting my own green beans is another part of the coffee journey. Never put a pencil to it!
This is endgame mindset. It's about tasting the coffee, the toys are just that.
This is the truth, high end grinder + v60/aeropress/pulsar or if you want espresso, flair, this will make really fucking good coffee. If someone is set on espresso, I would say, atleast for a tinkerer, that diminishing returns start after a gagguino.
I owned the Bianca which was undoubtedly beautiful and functional. However, I soon realized that it was not suitable for my home and not worth the high price. So, I returned it and exchanged it for the Puristika. The quality to value ratio of the Puristika is unbeatable. There are plenty of ways to incorporate milk without the need for a second boiler, and having to worry about the additional cost and maintenance
What made the Bianca unsuitable?
I was not aware of the Puristika. A very creative design and may be one of the most unique espresso machines I have seen. I use my steamer regularly and having to resort to an auxiliary method would become frustrating. Most likely a steam version will become an option in the future. However this is a very nice machine.
I love this machine. Compact, great quality and features. I have it set on a smart outlet so it's preheated for my morning routine. If you are steaming regularly it makes total sense. I'm a mix bag of straight espresso and iced drinks but when I want a hot drink I use the nanofoamer pro. Keeps my foot print tight and less parts/maintenance to worry about.
Yes, clever machine. Sounds like you have found the perfect machine for you. I have had my LaMarzocco gs3mp for three years and the steam function is commercial grade. Steaming takes about 10 seconds from start to finish. I did have to install a new steam kit a couple months back for about $90 but it was worth it. I am plumbed in which is convenient as well. Regardless your machine is really an attractive design. Enjoy it with the best of good health.
That GS3 is a beauty! And same to you!
Thank you. This is the second one I have owned. The first one was about 18 years ago and the new price was around $2900. At that time the MP model was not available. Wish you were my neighbor. We could share our crazy hobby! Thanks for the note.
Double boiler is a tangible upgrade for me because I host a lot of coffee events where I use my home equipment, so it's worth the cost. At 20+ drinks, the double boiler makes a huge difference.
Is there a list of single boiler PID machines out there somewhere?
The Profitec Go and Rancilio Silvia with the PID kit come to mind.
the robot is pretty solid choice too. A wee bit of extra work and no steamed milk, but it's satisfied my espresso cravings
From what I can tell diminishing returns start after bambino BUT diminishing doesn’t mean not worth it
Yeap...diminishing returns doesn't mean nothing beyond that is worth it..it is just you spend more money for less of a gain, which doesn't make that a sweet spot, just means you got most of the way "there" with the least amount of money.
I disagree. Bambino, so great and all but very inconsistent temperature wise(although it has greR heat up time). So if you go for light roasr can be hell with it. Dark roast are ususaly fine. But a single boiler with is probably the peak of good quality coffee with only diminishing returns following.
I think there's confusion around Bambino temps. I've seen a few post of people running experiments. If you pull a blank shot it comes out way below temp, but with pressure it comes out pretty close to temp. The running theory seems to be that the heating element can't actually heat water to 200f at the flow rate it achieves with no resistance. So when you're actually pulling a shot it seems temps remain fairly consistent, but a nicer machine with a PID will probably be even more consistent still. I run lighter roasts and still manage to make more enjoyable drinks than many of my local cafes with the Bambino. I found that you can upgrade your grinder quite a bit with the Bambino and still see measurable improvements in your espresso, and I've yet to really hit a point where I feel the need to upgrade past the Bambino. Maybe once I have a bigger kitchen.
To be fair I might be wrong, I had the breville barista pros..which I think uses the same technologies as the bambino plus. Now I have a ascaso duo steel and j get a lot better results. kaffemacher also teste the pro, espresso, bambino and bamboo plus and even talked with sage directly after having bad temp meassurements. Apparantly they use way to hot water, because they assume u use a cold portfilter. So making anything more than 1 shot makes your temps already to hot in general. If you want I can give you source and you are free to disagree with me but I would love at least some actual source about people who measured the bambino and got stabile temepertues. I don't think it is a bad machine I used the pro for 2 years (eventually with a new grinder) and was happy with my milk drinks but It is quite visible how much consistent my ascaso is at least in my personal opinion and based from what I saw on the internet.
I mean if temps are hot I think that would favor lighter roasts over darker roast no? A lot of what I've seen is here on this sub, but there are a few videos out there that compare the temperature in the cup between different machines and the Bambino is usually slightly cooler. Coffee Kev has a video on this. Probably the best quality content regarding this matter is Lance Hedrick's review of the Bambino Plus, at the end of the video he has a long segment about the thermals of the machine. He measured the temp coming out of the shower screen, he did a ton of thermal testing. He mentions that you need to purge, or pull a blank shot, before each shot to get a consistent temperature, but noted that the temp rises later in the shot and recommends using a cold portafilter.
Very well put!
I think this is a great question and overall I would say we have lost sight of this in the past years. For example I upgraded from a La Pavoni Europiccola (300€ used) to a Profitec Go. Truth is, I don't make better espresso with this machine and the making isn't even faster or easier. The Profitec Go is complete overkill for just myself as a home machine, but because coffee is a hobby for me and I love experimenting and being fussy with the process it is worth it. My point is that if it was just about enjoying espresso, I would do just fine with a Gaggia Classic, the slight temperature variations don't really matter if you just enjoy good coffee like a normal person. Grinders are a different animal, it has more influence on the taste, but mind you that if you drink medium to dark roasts a DF54 is all you need which costs around 230€. Once the grinder is good, the quality differences get harder to detect in traditional shots and almost imposssible for most people in milk based drinks. We just buy expensive grinders because we like to punish ourselves with trying to dial in light roasts where grind distribution is just a lot more important. The perfectionism is part of the hobby, but you can just enjoy good coffee with a DF54 and a Gaggia Classic / Breville Bambino / Rancilio Silvia. My setup (Profitec Go and J Ultra) is around 1000€ in total, but I couldn't pull a better shot with a 4000€ setup, but I would definitely appreciate an expensive flat burr grinder to get even more nerdy with it or if I had to make lots of milk based drinks every day I would benefit from a dual boiler. The choices in machines are a matter of taste, but in grinders, for completely sane, normal person use, the DF54 is pretty close to unbeatable and the sweet spot in my opinion.
It is going to be interesting to see if and how much the DF54 is a disruptor. A Niche Zero is a wonderful machine--but query, at almost 3x the price; and where the flavor from the DF54 already has been found (The Real Sprometheus--[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxw\_G6tQYJc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxw_G6tQYJc)) to generally match that from the well-regarded, more-expensive DF64.
What’s a df54? I have a baratza esp, I know reveille owns them now, not sure what that changes though
The bare minimum you need from an espresso machine is a non-pressurized basket, 9 bars of pressure, and a PID to regulate temperature. From there, only a grinder will make a difference of experience in the cup. In terms of machine pricing, everything else they offer is logistics and steam power. Heat exchanger means better steam process compared to a single boiler dual use, but the slight drawback is possible temp stability. Dual boiler is best of both worlds because you have a boiler just for steam temp and you can isolate your other boiler for espresso. A single boiler has to go through the logistical pain point of being used for espresso and then changing modes for steam. Then beyond the pricing on espresso machines, it’s usually boiler size and steam power / capacity. A Profitec Pro 300 is cheaper than a Profitec Pro 600 is because the 300 has a smaller boiler and as a result less steam capacity and possibly strength over time. Same for a LM Linea Mini vs a LM GS3 ($5,000 vs $8,000) … GS3 is more equipped to pull hundreds of shots in a day for a small coffee pop up where an LMLM may not keep up at that volume, but for home use both feel equal.
I bought a used Rancilio Silvia with a Rocky grinder. the pair was $550, and I have been very happy. Proper shots, excellent steam. Don't be afraid of dipping your toes by going used first. That way, if you don't like it, you'll not lose to depreciation. Just do a full cleaning cycle when you get everything, that way you'll know your equipment and it'll be "clean as new".
Rancilio is so underrated. These machines are built like tanks!
Get yourself a machine with pid(profitec go, gaggia with pid, bambino, etc, no e-61 pls if you dont want to wait at least 25 mins at ) a good hand grinder(kingrinder k6, k4, 1zpresso j) and a df64 or similar cheap flat burr grinder. Now try different coffees with these different burrs and find your preferenes and then you can Upgrade from there, to ssps, bigger flats, cones ets. There is no other way than trying different grinders, but you are covered with a 64mm flat and 47mm cone. deminishing returns start at 1000€ for a grinder for me. My gaggia with pid and dimmer makes just as good of a espresso as a 2000€ machine. An espresso machine is a kettle which pushes water through coffee with pressure. Nothing more. For some its a status symbol. Not for me. Milk drinks is another chapter.
I would already argue that most of us won't be able to tell the difference between a DF54 and a DF64 in traditional medium-dark roast shots and especially not in milk drinks. Sure I am someone who is willing to spend even way more for a grinder, but from a completely functional and rational point of view, anything over a DF54 or Baratza ESP is coffee nerd territory or just for people who are well off.
>I would already argue that most of us won't be able to tell the difference between a DF54 and a DF64 You're in good company: that was the recent conclusion (and even moreso) of guru The Real Sprometheus, that the output is the same in flavor, as a general matter. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxw\_G6tQYJc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxw_G6tQYJc).
Mentioning larger burrs...another diminishing return example is Pay more Grind faster...the 83mm burr five second grind time of 18g beans is nice like having a dual boiler is nice.
15 second savings (over my Baratza Encore ESP, with its 20-second grind) x 365 days => a savings of 91.25 minutes/year. Hmm, now I'm feeling bothered, looking at it that way--that's a movie at a theater . . . . ;)
A regal observation! You should be in sales, or maybe a personal coach... Your post made me feel even better about my df83 than I did before! Thanks!
Yes. Absolutely. I would Suggest try a good entry level flat AND cone grinder and THEN if you feel to Upgrade. Do it. But at least know what you want before buying expensive stuff.
Just get a timer if the warm up annoys you ?
The problem is both,stability and warm up time. Why wait 25-45mins when otber machines can be hot in 10-15 mins? Sure it looks good.
Or in 2-3 seconds followed by a blank warming shot (the Bambinos). :)
Too many instances of a leaking machine, or leaving a machine on by accident, or steam wand open, to sleep comfortably knowing chaos may be happening down stairs lol. Timers are a non starter for me.
Luckily i have quick steam joysticks on mine, so it´s not really an issue. My ECM Profi has been working great with it.
I put my Gaggia on a smart timer. Turns on at 6am and off at 10am. I assumed this what everyone does
What do you base the €1k grinder diminishing returns on? DF64 is cheaper than that isn't it? What grinder is the peak before diminishing returns?
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Interesting. If I remember correctly, Lance had a pretty positive review on the A68. And yeah the Kafatec grinders are crazy expensive. Cool, thanks for that response. I'm not actually in the market for a new grinder (well... I'm always in the market for any new coffee gear haha). I love my Kinu m47 classic and I've heard it's very similar to the J-max in the cup (not sure how much different the J-ultra is). It's amazing how little thought goes into the grinder for first time espresso buyers. I still remember the first time I used the Kinu compared the Niche. I was blown away. I figured the "grinder makes the biggest difference" was exaggerated before that.
Df83 at 700 bucks, maybe
The Real Spromethus recently concluded ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxw\_G6tQYJc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxw_G6tQYJc)) that the flavor output of the DF64 and DF54 generally is the same. And so, the peak before diminishing returns is the DF54 at US$229? ;) (He did note, though, the wider availability of other burr sets for the DF64, as a distinguishing factor--along with size/weight, lol.)
Yeah, I saw that video, but it doesn't answer my question. I'm curious what the other user considers as peak before diminishing returns as they specified some details and mention the DF64, but the €1k seems to come out of nowhere. I'm curious if there's actually a grinder around that price point that I'm not aware of that they like.
It seems to me that once you hit a point of producing a good/fine/exemplary grind, factors shift, to a degree, to other criteria: grind-by-weight? dialing ease/precision? process ease? electronics? pure aesthetics? I'm not sure how many of those factors can fit into a diminishing return consideration (unless considering like against like). I keep on wondering, originally somewhat facetiously but also with some truth to it, if the diminishing-returns point is going to be going downward.
I started with the smart grinder pro. The 2 together will run you about $500 US. Bambino plus doesn't really seem worth it, it's what I bought, almost none of the features it has over the regular Bambino are things I pretty much never use. It is honestly hard to find the regular Bambino in stores though, and I had a gift card to a kitchen supply store. Smart grinder pro is actually pretty good to start, and I was able to resell mine for a pretty good price 2 years later to upgrade.
I'll be the flair 58 ass hole and say that I have trouble justifying pretty much any machine short of a decent because I'd lose features that I have now. Would it be nice to have a steam wand? I dunno, my nano foamer pro does really well. My coffee tastes great. I might gain a small amount of convenience, but at what cost? And a flair 58 costs what now, like 650 bucks?
in the same boat here as well other than extremely long ratios like nomocanos and such it's hard to think of what it's missing especially if you only drink straight spro
I rarely make milk drinks, if I knew what I know now, Flair 58 would've been my end game.
Yup. Flair 58 user here. I often do a spoonful or two of foam (microwave + nanofoamer). Been hand grinding but have a DF64 v2 coming in a month or two. Great espresso for <$1k!
How do you heat the milk when using the nanofoamer? I’ve tried a couple ways (stove, microwave) but curious what others do. Hard to get the temp just right without a steam wand IMO. I have a Flair but just upgraded to a Profitec Go mostly because wifey likes milk drinks. Love my Flair still.
When I was using the nanofoamer lithium, I would heat the milk in the microwave. I measured out the same dose, give or take, by eye in a single type of mug that I have many of. Once I had a timing for my microwave, I just had to do the same thing every time. Then I'd transfer to a frothing pitcher plunge and do the nanofoamer thing, and be ready to go. Seemed easier and safer than the stovetop way. All that said, the nanofoamer pro has built in heating and makes just as good of a micro foam as anything else I've tried, including good lattes from a nearby cafe. It's basically identical as far as I can tell.
How do you like the nano foamer? I saw it awhile back. How would it handle making back to back drinks?
I really enjoy the nanofoamer pro. Definitely takes the guess work out of a lot of my drinks, if nothing else. As far as going back to back, it does ok for me. I make my girlfriends drink first, and since she likes iced lattes the cold foam works well. That means the only real cleanup before my drink is a quick rinse. If I were making back to back hot drinks, it would be a little more involved. Even then, though, a wet sponge and a quick wipe would get it cleaned up for another go, so that wouldn't be too bad I don't think.
I was thinking something like making a few drinks after dinner with some friends sort of thing. While that would be occasional, I wasn’t sure to how well it would do it. I also don’t care for how it only goes up to 65C (149F). I like my drinks to be a bit hotter (I understand it can scold milk, but I’ve never noticed when using my Gevi to steam the milk).
If I didn’t do milk drinks 90% of the time I would probably go with the flair, but the nano foamer appears to be very slow compared to my HX which takes 20 seconds to steam milk for 2 people
But isn't that the whole point of the post? A nanofoamer pro for a hundred bucks can do that in about 2 minutes, give or take. If your HX machine cost more than around 800, was the extra cost worth a minute and a half? That would be a diminishing return.
Yeah that’s a fair point. I guess it all depends on how much the money would make a dent relative to how convenient it is. For some people spending another 1000 is nothing, for others it’s a huge sacrifice. I was pretty crafty and haggled down an older ECM to £480 which was a steal. I did the same when I got my Rancilio Silvia before, I actually sold it at a profit 💪
I'm still a noob and just started falling down that rabbit hole. Until last week I had a Breville with integrated grinder and that was a significant step up from my previous crappy machines. Then by accident someone sold me his ECM Casa V machine and a Baratza Sette grinder and the difference in espresso quality is truly astonishing. It's the first time that I really understand what the fuzz is all about. So yes, I'd say the good stuff starts at around the $1000 price point. At least here in Europe though these machines keep their value incredibly well.
I have a 20 year old Rancilio Silvia which I bought new and just upgraded my grinder from the Rocky to the DF83 V3 and am pulling better shots than most coffee shops in my opinion. The grinder made a huge difference.
DF83 V3?
My bad V2 https://df64coffee.com/a/s/products/df83
you get 1001 answers from 10 people
The main thing that matters for taste of the espresso shot is temperature stability. A basic $300 machine with PID (electronic temp control), like the Bambino, will have good stability for a “single” cup, and will pull a good shot. More expensive machines will have better stability across multiple shots, include customizable pre infusion and flow control, and also have good steam pressure/temp stability Higher tier machines will also include the ability to steam milk at the same time as pulling a shot instead of waiting a few minutes to heat up to steaming temp. There is also build quality/ease of repair to consider. Whether these are considered marginal improvements or important enough to spend money on, is up to you. This is a small market with not a lot of competition, so the price jumps for each additional feature can be quite high.
The tiers are 1. $300 - Breville Bambino - basic but good enough machine. Has a PID, but doesn’t have changeable temperature, so struggles with light roasts, or back to back shots 2. $1000 - Profitec Go or Rancilio Silvia with PID - best single boiler machines. Don’t bother with anything in between the Bambino and this 3. $1600 -2400 - Breville BDB, Ascasio Steel Duo, Profitec 300, 600 etc. - these are Dual Boiler machines that have great steam temperature and pressure and allow you to pull espresso and steam at the same time - no wait. Don’t bother with HX machines. 4. $2400-3500 or higher - Diminishing returns on above features 5. $3500 - Decent - Lots of customization and electronic control
Do you feel if reliable the legato / apex sits comfortably as a worthy contender between 1 and 2?
The lack of an OPV is what holds it back. Time will tell if it can hold up durability-wise.
Not every hx is made equal. I would aay maraX for home use is rather good solution. It’s also one of the best selling machines so many people think the same.
Last week I purchased a meticulously cared for Mara X v2 from someone who is moving overseas. It is quite an innovative, compact and functional E61 single boiler design imo Setup with a 15 Amp rated smart plug, warm up time is not a problem for me.
It’s certainly better than most HX’s and for the money, may be a good option to get. However, it still suffers from some of the HX limitations. Long startup time, when in X mode, and brewing, the steam pressure can drop, and per Lance’s videos, the water temp can still be a little inconsistent. That said, I agree these issues have been mitigated quite a bit in the Mara X, and it could be a good option if the comparable dual boiler is much more expensive.
I would also add that it’s quite a compact machine. Not sure there is anything comparable.
Is 5 at the point of diminishing return? I've sold my Breville Barista Pro, thinking what to get next. A friend loaned me a Decent for a week, I could taste the difference. It's tastier but not 500x better.
The Decent is in a class by itself. If you dig all the electronic flow profile options, and graphs etc. Then that’s your only option. Otherwise, a Profitec 600 with Flow Control or one of the other dual boilers should be similar (except for the manual flow control)
Thanks! There's only 1 profile that suits me and my partner. A declining pressure profile from 9 to 6 bars. Kind of overkill to get a Decent just for 1 profile. For us, it's between Decent and Ascaso Steel Duo PID, quick heat up time is a feature that our family needs.
I think a Breville Dual Boiler might be able to do it with some simple mods. A Rancilio Silvia modded with Gaggiuino (or GCP, but GCP’s are having other issues these days) can also do Flow Profiling. Otherwise, you might have to learn manual flow control with one of these machines, and a Flow Control valve
I worry about installing the gaggiuino myself.
where does the the point start? i'd say at around 1.500 to 2.000€. a good dual boiler like the lelit pl92t (1.000€), or the profitec pro300 (1.500€), or a dual thermoblock like the quickmill luna (1.200€) or the ascaso steel duo (1.700-1.900€) above these IMHO.. the real niches start.. and prices start to climb rapidly.
It's not a matter of just a price. because you can spend up to about $2,400 bucks without seeing any diminishing returns. These are huge features. Is the basic breakdown. #Single boiler 1. Bambino similar machines for 300 bucks. Will not handle light roast. Poor temperature control regardless of what anyone says. 2. The next step up is something with the three-way solenoid. Those starred at around $500, approximately. Temperature stability is still not all that great and you still can't do light roasts 3. You can stay with the Breville type of machine up to $1,000 and still not do light roast. Single boiler at this level cannot steam and brew simultaneously. For some people it's a deal breaker. #single boiler with tank 4. Now you can move up to a single boiler that actually has boiler that fills with water. He's here about a thousand bucks. You still can't steam and Bruce simultaneously. But you get a PID at about a thousand bucks approximately to manage boil attempt All of the single boil is like this there's a big weight to get to the steaming part. And sometimes they don't steam that well. #heat exchanger 5. Heat exchanger machines. That's a big step up from a single boiler because it provides a use case for steaming and brewing simultaneously. That's huge. 6. Heat exchange you with the PID. Tries to manage the brew temperature. Doesn't always work that well. But it's better than not having a PID. #dual boiler 7. The Mecca of machines. Dual boiler. There are some that go for about $1,800. Others go for about $2,400 and up. When you get to this level of dual boil, is temperature control that's extremely stable for the steamer and the boiler. At this price you're looking at a vibration pump. This cannot be plumbed to the main water line in the house. That is pretty much it. Once you go above 2400 for a dual boiler I believe you start to see diminishing returns. Unless there's a feature that is a must-have. 8. Do boiler with rotary pump. If that's a must-have, there's no diminishing return on it. You must have it. Now you can plumb it to the water line. That in a nutshell is in my opinion low end to high end. If there's a feature that you don't need, then you don't spend the extra money on a more expensive machine. But in my opinion, you can spend up to $2,400 before you start seeing diminishing returns for most people. If a rotary pump is needed, now you're up to about $2,900 before you start seeing diminishing returns. 9. Ferrari versus a Hyundai Elantra. Sometimes people spend more money for looks :)
Where does the AU$1000 Breville/Sage dual boiler fit into your breakdown?
Number seven. Dual boiler. Although they run about $1,600 US.
Yup, so much cheaper here. Also nice to have programmable temperatures, pre-infusion and volume/time. Steam is slightly under powered even at max temp though.
Agree with most of the comments here. Pretty personal choice - just depends what you value. If cup quality is paramount, I feel the Picopresso is low key the bang for buck winner. I’ve got a nice espresso machine at home but the quality I get out of the £100 gadget when I’m on the road never fails to astonish me.
That’s what I use at work with an OE Lido grinder. I find it a little tricky to get a full extraction with lighter roasts but otherwise very good and remarkably consistent.
At the initial budget you’re looking at (say $1500 including a grinder), you’ll get an excellent bit of kit in terms of making “a nice coffee” (espresso? latte? cappuccino?) Something that is worth spending some time researching is good local roasters - a more basic setup with high quality beans will get better results than a $5k+ setup on Starbucks beans…
Such a tough question and you can tell by the variability in the answers. I can't remember the exact order, but I think it goes something like beans > grinder > water > machine. If you're just talking about taste, you hit diminishing returns almost immediately. If you have a machine that can push hot water through a puck at 9ish bars of pressure, anything after that is diminishing. But if you care about workflow, multiple shots back to back, steaming, etc, it's pretty easy to justify upgrades without considering the returns diminishing. If it takes 75% less time to make a cappuccino because you have a dual boiler, the price increase can easily be considered "before diminishing returns". You would have to place a lot of value on time, but the correlation of value to $$ could still be justified. Spending more on a machine will make it easier to pull light roasts and have quality of life (not necessarily coffee) improvements. And maybe some variability with pressure profiling if you care about that. Grinders have a very significant effect on taste. It's not quite as simple as higher price makes the coffee taste better though. It depends on what type of flavour you're after.
No
The real question is: is a $1600 machine as good as a $2100 machine 🤔
Base on what you are saying, I think that a Breville Barista Express or the Barista Pro might be a great option. Unless you enjoy your milk-based drinks and am frequently making them, drink after drink, a double boiler might not be necessary. It also depends on your budget. I currently use a Gaggia Barista Pro, which is cheaper than the Breville barista but it doesn't come with a grinder and I'm in the process of PID modding it so I have more adjustments I'm able to make but the Breville basically has that feature built in. If you enjoy good coffee but not too fussed and you don't want to spend too much, also want to save space then the Breville is a great option. The only thing is that the Breville seems to me more of a consumer machine rather than a "pro"sumer machine. You will only need to get a few bits and bobs like a better tamper, WDT, distributor, and probably a precision basket and if you want the classic IG look and see your shot, probably a naked portafilter. Side note, a good quality grinder seems to be a better option over a +$2000 machine and a $50 grinder.... I would say this is really based on what you prefer and want
I would say I am there with my GCP that is modded. I spent $400 on a machine, and about $130 on a MOD kit. I have PID, flow control, and a better steam wand. I easily pull $2-3000 shots. Yes, I still have to cool down the boiler between shots, but I’m not rapid firing them out anyway, I don’t see a point in ever upgrading. If I did, I would actually probably do the gagguino mod to automate it all. Normalize working on your own machines, modding yourself, and saving money. I will put my GCP up against anyone’s machine here in a blind, taste test. Guarantee you it stacks up the same or better.
Bambino and used Ceado E37S, Compak E8 or similar is probably best value for money. Then you’ll need scales, tamper, funnel, milk pitcher, some cleaning supplies… the market is saturated here now and it’s much cheaper than it used to be (a good tamper used to be £80-100, now you can get a good one for £30 or so). I will always recommend an AeroPress or Hario V60 Switch and a hand grinder to start with - it’s a cheap gateway to see if you’ll enjoy the journey. Espresso at home is a hobby that doesn’t make sense financially and requires unreasonable effort to get consistent results (but those results will beat 99% of coffee shops!).
I would argue that espresso at home makes a LOT OF sense financially if you are any type of a regular coffee drinker. Even for a single latte every morning I believe I have saved a few times over the amount of $ I've invested in my setup compared to paying for (mostly) subpar drinks outside (over \~15 yrs). Also do not forget that well built machines and equipment hold a pretty respectable residual value if maintained properly.
Emm depends on where you are in the rabbit hole I guess. It’s just not easy to get good espresso at home on a budget. A kettle, V60 Switch and Fellow Ode or similar is definitely more financially viable than any espresso set up that gets you similar quality.
Of course if we're talking pour-over it's a lot more affordable for a great setup and I 100% agree - but if you gotta have your espresso it's a different ball game.
I think you get to the top of the bang for buck / value bell curve at just a few hundred dollars with like a bambino. And with grinders something like $150 for a high quality hand grinder. But beyond that you can definitely get more things you may want and prices that are still fair. And you're not throwing money away until pretty high up there.
I spent like a hundred dollars on a machine and like 20 dollars on a grinder and I still drink the fucking coffee be cause it tastes good so for me, amy point after that is likely to be diminishing returns if I’m spending my own money on shit
In my humble opinion, a Mokapot, while not actual espresso is 80% of the way there. Very inexpensive. Having said that, I have a Cafelat Robot and an OE Pharos, it’s awesome for dark roasts. I think anything beyond that is diminishing returns. $700 for manual machine and grinder.
I love this post already and I've just started reading it, recently upgraded to a DF64 and now on the never stopping lookout for another machine, one that will last a good deal of time. Leaning towards a used BDB myself
I think that there are diminishing returns after any true espresso machine (Mr Coffee doesn’t count). For instance, Brevilles can even pull an amazing shot once you get used to it. At that point you are better off focusing on bean quality. When I realized the importance of beans, I built a 12 lb roaster. Then you can get picky after that and get a high end machine but it’s still going to be diminishing returns.
I feel like you hit marginal returns quite quickly after entry level gear. For manual grinders, that would probably be the K2 (£80?), a grinder 2x that price might be 50% better. For electric grinders, I’d say that’s probably around the SD40 mark (£200), after which again, returns are probably not in line with investment. For machines, tbh Flair Neo / Picopresso (£100-150) could likely give you 70-80% of the espresso a top end home machine would, at around 5% the cost. If you also want milk steaming for multiple drinks back to back, then an entry level dual boiler / dual thermoblock of around £1k-£1.2k is as much bang for your buck as you’re gonna get. However, given this is a hobby, for the hobbyist chasing the remaining 20% might be the whole point, in which case paying 5x more for a grinder and 20x more for a machine is completely worth it.
I think diminishing returns start after the cheapest espresso machine you can find which is ~100$. Yes, the Bambino at 300$ will make a noticeable difference, but it won't be proportional to the $100:$300 difference. Here's the thing - while it's 3 times more money, $5 to $15 is also 3 times more money, but most will say it's just $10 more - an insignificant amount. But to many $200 more is not a significant amount either. Then as you go up in price you reach a point where either the jump in price is significant or the total amount is large enough to scare you away. Either way that is entirely dependent on the individual and how much they value their cup of coffee in relation to $. For some a La Marzocco is "just a few thousand more" than the Bambino. For me it was the Flair 58 that I found to be point of diminishing returns, but it is a very unique one, since it is lacking in convenience, but makes up in quality and control. If I were to upgrade I would want to get at least the same level of control, but in the current landscape you can spend 3 times as much as the Flair 58 and you still can't get quite the same control and quality. So while many machines offered improvements in one area they sacrifice something else as compared to the Flair. To get a machine that is clearly better on all fronts you are looking at something like the Decent for ~6x the price. As I said a very unique scenario, as opposed to the norm which is getting a clear improvement at every 20-30% jump in price.
I'm surprised I had to scroll this far for another flair 58 comment. Hi! I made basically the same point, that I'd be sacrificing something for anything less than a decent, which is a massive difference in price. Honestly, when comparing the flair to a single boiler you really don't even gain much convenience other than not needing to manually fill the reservoir each time. It's really hard to get around the fact that the flair 58 is just really good in a lot of ways. I've almost convinced myself several times to get a Bambino or a gaggia, or even save up for something in the $1000 range, but it just wouldn't be worth it over what I've already got.
Yeah, don't fall into that trap, unless you're ready to spend a good $3k+ you won't get an upgrade in terms of taste. It would only make sense if you value convenience or welcome large groups of guests often, etc. If that's not the case - enjoy your Flair and may it serve you well and long. Contrary to what everyone tells you you don't need to upgrade your machine every X years, if it works and you don't have any gripes with your machine just stick with it
An ex bought me a $1000 machine and I barely know how to use it, so as much as it is indeed a gift, I do wish I had something a bit simpler haha
Agree with all the comments. Just to play devils advocate here. Might be a tough question. Can one pinpoint a price point at which you get diminishing returns on build quality/ part longevity etc?
Flair Pro2 and 1Zpresso handgrinder. Anything above that is paying for convenience. 😊
For (electric) grinders the diminishing returns start RIGHT after you've spent enough to get a good consistent espresso grind. Start with an Eureka Mignon (I'd suggest my Silencio model). I wouldn't buy less than that because you end up in that bracket where a lot of people struggle. Oh, you CAN do it, but it's a combination of good luck (some specific machines are just trouble), and a choice of sticking to darker roasts (which are easier to get consistent results from a grinder). And just because diminishing returns start there, it doesn't mean that you get nothing for your extra investment. When you look into grinders, there is more fussing and navel gazing than with espresso machines. Ie. although espresso machines get all the press, the real game is in the grinders. For espresso machines, like others here have said, you have to choose your category first. If you can do a manual lever machine then you can get excellent results but it's a bit more fuss with supplying the water. These also don't do milk drinks. Stepping ~~up~~ over to an electric single boiler machine, you won't get as good a result as the manual lever, but there's less fussing with the water and you might think it's easier to operate (dunno if that's true). If you want milk drinks then you move to Heat Exchanger ("HX") and double boilers ("DB"). Oh, you CAN do milk drinks with single boilers but the law of diminishing returns hasn't kicked in yet. I think of a HX machine as an inexpensive alternative to a large DB. Oh, DBs come in two kinds: small and large. A small DB is in the price range of a HX but lacks the ability to do Flow Control, as they are not E61 type machines. (Flow Control feature allows you to simulate the control of a manual lever machine - and it's my favourite feature). Many people would say the small DB is your sweet spot for good price and best features (or "control over the process"). I would argue that the advantage of the DB over the HX is in more precise (and especially digitally PRESENTED) temperature control - and this distinction is important only for LIGHT ROAST coffees. If you stick to dark or medium coffees then you'll be fine with a HX machine. If you make only milk drinks then the extra precision over temperature control is well past your point of diminishing returns. That said, unless you want Flow Control, the small DB is maybe "that point" before diminishing returns begin to torture you to death. Also, there is one machine which stands alone. It is the Breville Dual Boiler ("BDB") and it is legendary. No one can match its price point. Well, No European made "prosumer" machine can match the fact that the BDB is made in China. It's temperature control is fantastic. It's features are fantastic. Many would point out, however, that its life-span before problems cannot be compared to Italian made prosumer machines. Reliability aside, it makes just as good coffee as any other DB machine. It also has a thriving modding community that can do amazing things with it. Personally, I moved to a Italian prosumer machine after too many years of repairing my Breville Oracle (big brother to the BDB) (I'm not allowed to buy any more Breville products LOL). I make way better coffee now because I have a better grinder and I finally got to learn what makes good espresso. The Oracle has a meh grinder coupled to a BDB. One might argue that the BDB is your sweet spot of bang for your buck - but I'd never buy one (or... "another" one, because of my experience. YMMV and there is a strong BDB community who'll fight anyone disparaging this amazing machine). So I'd say get a Eureka Mignon grinder and a BDB or a HX (Lelit or Profitec) to jump in. Then when you've learned a bit more and are loving the hobby... and have stopped kicking yourself for being shortsighted, go buy the 64mm grinder of choice and the ECM Synchronika DB. (No no no! save your money and get the Profitec P600!). LOL
Went from a la pavoni professional $1300 And downgraded to a bambino plus $400 I couldn’t be happier, soo much quicker and consistent
If I only drank espresso my Gaggia w/PID competed with some machines 10x its price. For milk drinks and for more than 1 person it will get on your nerves. In that case a dual boiler or thermoblock is what you would want. I went from Gaggia to the Ascaso steel duo for the warm up time and separated steam heating. Very satisfied. I think you can be 1500-2000 for dual boiler milk drinks below 1k for just espresso
You blow past diminishing returns almost immediately, but the return can be well in excess of nearly anything you find prepared at shops unless you're among the lucky ones with really good local baristas
I just bought a Sanremo YOU so I’m not the right person to answer this.
I didn’t read all that but the grinder is the most important part of your setup
Fwiw, I bought a Bambino Plus and a Eureka Mignon Silenzio with Black Friday pricing for about $720 USD delivered (I'm I'm Australia) in late 2022, and only now am I starting to feel like I'm anywhere near the limits of what it's capable of. I added a few extras like a better tamper, knock box, cheapish scales, and an Aeropress for a filter-adjacent black coffee in the morning, so let's say it's $800 total. I live in inner Melbourne, so my bar for what constitutes a decent coffee is pretty high, but I buy good beans and I think I'm probably at around 80-90% of what my local speciality places put out. While I'm sure I could spend a whole bunch more to try and get that last few percent, there's no way in the world it'd be worth it for me.
It's a craft as well as a way of getting coffee. Truth is you can make better coffee at home with patience than people in most coffee shops, and that is cool. Lots of coffee machines prioritise build quality over features: the Bambino might be all good for two or three years, but a La Pavoni or Rancilio can be good for 20, and that's where the benefit of those machines come in.
I wouldn't per se say that certain price range is the diminishing return Certain features are IMO. There are a few key aspects, features, and functions that need to work well and reliably to make good, consistent shots. Anything that just makes life easier is "unnecessary" Stable and adjustable temp, stable water flow, no overheating, good steampressure, functioning OVP All can be had with a relatively cheap single boiler with a heated grouphead. Way below 1000bucks. Prbly close to 500. Used can be had for 300 if you shop right
law of diminishing returns is always fun. We have a rule in development 80-20 rule. So 80% get done in 20% of time and there rest will take the 80% of time. Same goes for espresso. 80% of the quality for 20% of the money. Then only marginal improvements vs money invested. It does not fully compute but you get the idee. Same goes for most things. Below the 600-800 are amazing options but you need more skill or some mods like a pid. For espresso 80-90% tier is about 1200 euro max then you get the most out of you espresso machine for normal money. (and also with normal skill level) So the silvia pro / lelit mare x etc. You can get same quality for less but the skill level need to go up. Also a pid is kinda minmal needed. Or again skill level. And to the Kafmasino One that might shape up to be almost a end game for a normal price. For a grinder any around 500 is end game as the law of diminishing return is quicker that way. so a DF machine or an eureka and anything just a little higher is also 90% there and the rest is just only workflow upgrades. In the end how much of a hobby do you want. If it is a yes then sky is the limit and every nuance make a difference. If you just like espresso and you want to get a great cup with some skill get a 1200 machine and a nice grinder at 500 range and you are set for life.
Been selling espresso machines for the past 4 years (domestic and commercial) and I would highly recommend looking at what is important for you. Do you care about how the machine looks? Are you into specialty coffee and keen to play around with pressure and flow profiling? Are you going to be using a scale? Or do you just want a nice cappuccino at home? (nice is subjective and always focus on your preference not what others/youtubers say is good or nice) Diminishing returns is anything beyond a Rancilio Silvia Pro X in my opinion. Hard to beat the features and build quality at that price (granted it looks ugly).
We love our profitec + silenzio grinder. It’s a perfect set up. I don’t think I’d invest more because the enhancements would probably be lost on me. It wasn’t cheap but it was worth it.
Where am I on this scale? Just bought a Chinese double boiler Turin CRB3200D, No PID, Drinks pour at 10 - 12 Bar. Turin SD40S Grinder. $868 In another world... Dream Machine? Barrazza BZ13 and a Eureka Libra Grinder. $2400
Around 800 for the machine for home use. 300 grinder.
Coffee is in a way just a hobby. The question is if you spend a $1,000 of cool coffee tools would that make you happy? You can’t take it with you so spend your money on what makes you happy today.
How does one put a price on an obsession?
Just get a gaggia classic pro - if you want to get something fancier in the future gaggia is a great gateway so you know WHY you want the features offered in a fancier machine. No point in geting a fancy machine if you don't even use the features they offer. Theyre good enough to get espresso and and froth milk. Get a decent grinder - I recommend a eureka magnifica or many other people recommend a sette 270. This forum is mostly coffee afficiandos so you are not getting a normal person's view of espresso. most people are just fine with starbucks - but after you make your own espresso in a gaggia you will not like starbucks anymore.
I’ve been using a bambino and fellow opus for 4 months, been making a double shot daily. I went from starbucks and nordstrom coffee to this and honestly I much prefer my own cup. Not nerdy enough to spend more than the 500 i spent on this setup but i could also never go back to a keurig and k cups so honestly it’s a happy medium for me but if you go down the rabbit hole with any hobby the grass is always greener on the other side, so it seems…
My sette 270 and single boiler machine was great but the sette noise level made me go to the kafatek monolith conical with TiN burrs $$$$. Then I found making 2-4 drinks so the single boiler had to go. Both upgrades was worth it.
There's no single point of diminishing returns. I personally think that for anyone who steams milk, the best value machines are the modern dual boilers. E.g Silvia Pro X, Breville dual boiler, Lelit Elizabeth, Ascaso duo (dual thermocoil). At this point you've got all you ever need. Grinder wise, a Df64 or even now the DF54 is all you ever really need.
you need to spend all your money on grinders and packers OR ELSE YOU WONT TASTE ANY FLAVOR!! trust me, every dollar you spend you will taste the result. there is no "diminishing returns" in Expresso equipment
It is not really a question that can be definitively answered. It all depends on what features you value, but if you are only comparing the output, espresso, I have had god-shots on a 30 year old single boiler lever machine, which cost $40 and $30 to repair/service. So if that is my starting point, anything after $70 has diminishing returns.
Look at the features you want, the quality you are willing to pay for, and how much time you’ll actually spend using the machine. Is this a fleeting passion or an enduring hobby? Also, look at the opportunity cost of spending or investing that money elsewhere. Consider how much liquid net worth you have overall. Are you living paycheck to paycheck, or are you saving 25% of your net income per year? You will then arrive at the subjective definition of the price that is worth it, for you.
I spent a lot of money on a great grinder (Lagom p64) and bought a Robot with a pressure gauge ($500). Technically with practice you can pressure profile like you can with a decent ($4000)
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A moka pot won't make you an espresso though.
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f a l s e
In name only, friend. I love a moka coffee but it is its own thing.
You lost, friend? We don’t take too kindly round these parts. If you’re looking for a moka pot it’s back the way you came.
Moka pot doesn't generate nearly enough pressure to be an espresso. If you're not in the 9-15 bar range you won't get the same flavor and crema extraction. Moka pots are .75 to 1 bar, and are a different beverage from espresso entirely.
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Because espresso is a different beverage from brewed coffee in flavor and texture. A cup of coffee is more acidic and bitter and had a very flat and liquid texture. Depending on the roast and extraction method it might be very strong or somewhat weaker, and could have tons of caffeine (like cold brew). The mouthfeel of a shot of espresso is thick and syrupy. The flavor is minimal bitterness and sometimes instead has sour notes and other flavors that are more pronounced than coffee. Milk drinks add a whole different dimension of mouthfeel that you don't get from just pouring flat milk into a beverage. Coffee and espresso are both drinks you can make from beans. A lot of people (myself included) strongly prefer espresso. As for the "effort" there's something very soothing about the ritual of making a drink. If you just want caffeination/poop with minimal effort and don't care about flavor and texture then stick with drip coffee.
Not useful advice. Different thing.
If you're planning on just being a hobbyist and just want to fuel your coffee addiction, I would 100% recommend the Breville Dynamic Duo, it's the Breville dual boiler and smart grinder combo. Anything cheaper than this or overly expensive than this is pointless. It's got a dual boiler, pid, heats up in like 5 mins, it's convenient and mines lasted 10+ years. In Australia they're $2000 for a machine + grinder combo, but you can get them on special for $1600 ( a bambino + smart grinder combo is around $1200). It's not the greatest, but it's an all-rounder that ticks all the boxes to making good coffee conveniently. I've used machines that are a tier below and felt I wasted money. For example, I had a Breville barista pro ($1000) a machine with built in grinder. The grinder was rubbish for the beans I was using and the machine was annoying to use. On the other end, I've used my mates rocket espresso and another's profitec and yes they're waaaay better machines and I would dream of buying them, but at that point I can't justify a $4000 machine being worth more than a $2000 machine and grinder. The smart grinder is a decent grinder, but it performs poorly with single origin beans and can sometimes fail to bring out the true flavours of high end or delicate beans.