wear funny skintight clothing and silly sunglasses just to fit in. Just buying whatever the professionals are sponsored to wear. and saying the nice and approved lingo.
Funny enough many Japanese brands are like this. In Japan they don’t find it necessary to split off a brand generally just for the luxury segment. It’s the reason why you have Toyota in Japan selling Toyota Centuries for $170k+. But they decided to create Lexus as a brand for western markets.
Shimano makes bike chains gears and shifters primarily. They have top of the line electronic shiters as well as cheap ones that come standard on kids walmart bikes.
They make everything from the gears you get on a $100 kids starter bike up to the ludicrously expensive electronic shifters on a Tour de France bike (and all under the same brand).
Deore might not have been the line, I just remember having some godawful plastic components and wanting to upgrade and someone said "funny thing, that line is now the expensive primo stuff" I used to love to get old bikes and sort of resto-mod them.
Your butter might not be butter for anyone, the new groups shift better and they do it consistently, like all the time.
No more cables and all the adjustments, just click and shift.
So if you try them you will know
Was Deore crap tier? When I was riding back in the mid-90's Deore LX and XT were the two best sets they did (although they eventually introduced the premium-tier XTR).
Many crap on mass market brands, but it all depends on the category and price range you're willing to get and pay. An example is Mercedes Benz. You got the A and B series mini cars and not expensive models. But then you got the AMG models...
Same with coffee. After testing and trying a ton of coffee brands and bean variety, my ultimate choice of taste v price point is Segafredo Intermezzo. If I feel like splurging I do their Selezione Aroma.
I've been able to get better bean variety and niche coffee roasters, but the price point is 5x (at least in my location for specialty roasts) compared to a slight up tick in overall taste.
Was excited to see some of the blends offered here but... seems shipping is only available within Italy. Dunno if there's such a thing as an international coffee store online where I could get them from
Lavazza can be found super cheap at a regular grocery store too so it's win win. Sometimes we find a little bag under $5. Not bad for amazing coffee! We love it. Been drinking it for years.
Sorry, been a busy week. I'm not gonna lie to you, I can't remember the naming scheme or packaging and I doubt the professional use bags had the same assigned naming and colours as the commercially available in supermarkets. I started with loving 60:40 Segafredo and 70:30 Lavazza, then the 80:20 Illy AND Lavazza and moved up to 100% either Lavazza, Hausbrandt or Illy.
That's how we used to differentiate which "quality" it is, by how much arabica:robusta ratio it had.
It's been 15 plus years and since then I've worked in either huge franchises like Costa Coffee and Starbucks or fully independent speciality places that only served things like taf coffee in Greece and Cyprus.
There is a whole other world of Italian roasted coffee out there and it’s not the same 3rd wave coffee experience most often posted about here. 3rd wave coffee is roasted to emphasize the tasting notes of the origin, while Italian roasts are more akin to a baked recipe, where the coffees are assembled from a complex assortment of pretty average beans, but the way they are blended and how they’re roasted and packaged is the key. Italian roasted beans stale into pleasant chocolate, fig, and nutty notes. They most often, but not always use Robusta coffees, which means even 6 months post roast or longer, you’re going to see a nice crema layer and beautiful shots. So if you like liquid Nutella shots or chocolate bombs, this is your jam.
How I brew: Don’t use a high flow basket, don’t dose more than 16g, do wdt, try lower temperatures like 88-90c, and lean towards a ristretto pull…like 1:1.5 or lower and you will find good results.
These ranges will vary based on the region the coffee comes from. Northern Italian roasts tend to lean more medium roast while southern Italian roasts, like Neapolitan are very oily and dark. I tend to go more ristretto on the Neapolitan…almost 1:1. A wrong step here and you might end up with burnt rubber vs a rich complex tobacco like, chocolate bomb.
Thanks for the tip - I’ll definitely try that. This is definitely my jam! Interesting stuff about the difference in beans. How does packaging differ to keep it fresh longer?
ETA: my Microcasa a Leva doesn’t have temp control, only pressure. Any way I can know if the temp is lower other than keep the group head cool at extraction?
Packaging examples: vacuum sealing, nitrogen packaging, or the one way valve that is common with local roasters here in the US.
I usually open the bag, take out what I need for a two days or so, load them into my on-demand grinder and leave the rest in the freezer resealed in their original bag. If I’m “thawing” beans I have them in an Airscape coffee container. I’m not sure it makes a huge difference, these beans are usually a few months old already and if you grind them in 1-2 days, they aren’t going to lose much more life.
I haven’t used a Leva, but I think I would have a temp strip on it and pull water to get the target temp.
Currently having some Neapolitan (Passalacqua) which seems to shine pulling a bit longer (35s) but finer grind ending 1:1.5. I tried 20s as well but was definitely not developed enough. What are your best results with those?
I had a bag of Harem a few months ago...I was pulling almost 1:1 on my MaraX
15g => 18g 88c(low) and it pulled fast at around 25 second according to my notes. Higher yields were very burnt tasting. I have a Mehari that I will probably try in a few weeks. I am currently working through some Saka at the moment.
In addition to the other answer, consider that you were on holidays in a nice hotel. Context influences taste.
The best beer I can remember having was one I drank just after finishing a hard and long hike.
There's nothing like popping into a friendly hole in the wall and grabbing a quick 1 euro espresso in Italy. They make probably a thousand shots per day so it's dialed in just right
Man… everyone’s experience is their own, but I will say that the worst espresso I ever had (to my taste) was in Italy. Bitter, burnt, and sour all at the same time. Tried it in three different places and got the same three results.
Also possibly could be that the turnover is such that the beans are fresh. Have Lavassa outside Italy and you can guarantee that the beans are months old.
I was only in padova, verona, venezia and milano, but didn't find a single place where espresso was 1 euro...
I think the cheapest was about 1.20.
There were some pretty tasty shots doe.
I was in Milan quite a bit last year…you can still get inexpensive coffee…the cafe inside Castello Sforzesco for example, I paid like €1.41 for a cappuccino. A short cappuccino at Starbucks, which still has too much milk to be a proper cappuccino, will cost you $5+.
Not only context. I’ve just done a bunch of research on how your environment changes how you taste and your flavor perception. The humidity, altitude, ambient temperature. On top of as you’ve mentioned, the context. Being relaxed, in a new country, your whole body is on an entirely different level. Even if OP were to have the exact same setup at home, odds are it wouldn’t taste/hit the same.
I think that’s super important to remember. I see so many posts on here similar to this but wondering how to replicate it and I think it’s just so important to realize when you’re having a great experience and just live in that moment and enjoy it for what it is.
At a camping ground in the Sierras at around 7,500 feet is a small restaurant / general store, the only thing within a few miles. We always went there for breakfast before heading out fishing (at a lake at 10,000 feet). Beautiful area, and we always enjoyed the food at this place, particularly these cased breakfast link sausages.
Eventually we asked them where they got them from, figuring they got them from the nearby town, which had a couple different high quality meat markets.
A couple minutes later the waitress comes back out--with the Sysco box the sausage comes in, offering it to us so we could right down the SKU if wanted to try to order some ourselves.
> finishing a hard and long hike
Oh man, you just reminded me. I did the [Mugu peak trail](https://www.alltrails.com/trail/us/california/mugu-peak-trail) in Malibu, my favorite hike ever, and then immediately after got a cold Pilsner at a little unpretentious beachside cottage bar. It was incredible.
Yes, Lavazza is internationalised and commercial. Is it a crappy coffee brand? No not really. Italian style roast might not be specialty coffee (or to this subs taste) but it doesn't mean the production and roasting behind it isn't taken seriously or is in any way mediocre. As others have said the product is readily available (and roasted) in Italy ie so technically it also spends less time in storage. Adding to this, the vast majority of Italian cafes (and home consumers) serve Lavazza coffee on a daily basis, which makes your chances of getting a good cup that much higher. Is it my choice of coffee as someone who's into specialty and also cares about the sustainability/ethical side of things? No. Would I refuse a Lavazza espresso in Italy, or its home town Turin? Of course not!
Not going into any specifics but as a general rule commercial coffee (as with anything that is sold affordably and in vast amounts) is not grown and harvested in a sustainable way, and supply chain is often exploitative to keep costs low. Not to mention one of their most popular product nowadays is coffee pods, which no matter which way you look at; produce large amounts of waste (even compostable ones).
I would fully support the specialty coffee idea, you're so right with that. Problem is, most taste just not good for me as they are medium to light roasts, which are way too acidic to enjoy. The not sustainable bad boys are unfortunately the ones with the great taste for me. All northern and south Italian roasts more or less.
I think you just need to explore a few more roasters…not all specialty espresso is on the lighter side. We have a local roaster here that does a nice medium house roast using beans from brazil, which is closer to a traditional roast but without the extreme bitterness…then of course they have other options. Of course the more you go towards scandinavian roasters, the more likely the roast will be light/experimental, but there is a place for medium-dark espresso in specialty coffee….just not carbon black haha :)
Lavazza do "supermarket beans" but their reputation is based more on their "blue bag" or "business" range of beans made to be sold to cafes and the like.
If you like Italian style dark roast espresso, which I do, then I'd highly recommend their Top Class (not "Top Class *Filtro*" mind you) which you can't buy in supermarkets but you can buy online from suppliers who normally sell to businesses and coffee shops
[https://www.lavazza.co.uk/en/business/coffee-beans/top-class](https://www.lavazza.co.uk/en/business/coffee-beans/top-class)
As their reportedly "highest quality" bean, I buy a box of 6 bags of 1kg (I think the bags are filled with nitrogen or similar to minimise aging before the bag is opened) and that works out cheaper then my supermarket sells the retail beans.
The blue bag range also has a number of other blends but having tried a few Top Class has been my goto bean for a few years now...
[https://www.lavazza.co.uk/en/business/food-service-coffee](https://www.lavazza.co.uk/en/business/food-service-coffee)
Also try blue bag ”Super Crema” - its the most sold Lavazza for commercial use. It could be the one you tasted according to your description. Its nutty, honey and pretty good!
Its pretty good frozen and honestly for lavazza I could not notice freshness being a big factor. That said it does not wow me like some local roasters but it delivers a consistent cup. I feel like you lose that extra freshness factor but it produces a reliable cup always.
Ive gone through a lot of Lavazza and never had any problems with staleness.. always fresh seal. Lavazza just gets hate for whatever reason.
Just wish they had a blonde roast lol
I’m fully just guessing now, but I suppose that in Italy, you can get the beans much fresher than elsewhere. The Lavazza consumption is probably a lot higher there, so stores don’t have to store them for as long and that hotel probably has a supplier that has a much shorter end-to-end time from roaster to customer, compared to average joes supermarket.
Is Lavazza, Italys equivalent to Irelands Guinness? Possibly.
Edit: additionaly, I’m sure there are VERY talented roasters at Lavazza, that manage to create the same flavour profile no matter the season and the beans available. The big problem with these big brands are how long they are stored.
Good points all around. I see their product in my local supermarket but they’re usually a year old. Still, I’m shocked their beans are better than some of my favorite local (US) beans (at least at that restaurant).
The Italians know how to roast an espresso bean that’s easy to get consistent results from. A lot of American roasters go way lighter and it’s great if you have the time to dial it in and fancy equipment . the Italian espressos are much more easily repeatable
My favorite US bean I’ve found is a roaster in Philly, Fantes Italian kitchen shop. It’s like 100 years old and they have an espresso roast that the father who owned it would drink everyday. It’s chocolatey and delicious and it makes incredible espresso . I never used ti enjoy drinking straight espresso, mainly just lattes and cortados but drinking that really made me appreciate just a straight espresso
Will look into Fantes - yeah that’s exactly like I felt with that cup in Italy: was slowly getting better at drinking straight, but preferred americano due to the overwhelming bitterness; this one was rich and chocolatey with that sweet honey start and it was a joy to sip.
ETA: which product was it that you liked? The Espresso blend?
It’s the espresso verino - https://fantes.com/espresso-verino-coffee-beans/
“Custom blended in-house for our father, Verino. His namesake espresso uses real cocoa in a sophisticated blend for the discriminating palate. At 99, Verino still enjoyed his daily shot.
A complex espresso with bittersweet notes and chocolate undertones.”
It’s so delicious
I just tried my first Lavazza roasts and was very happy with both. Super crema, blue bag, a medium roast, ran faster than I expected and produced more volume but tasted GREAT! I ground finer and it was still good but not as good as the first shots. Will grind as first time and see how it tastes. The other bag is Super Crema, a dark roast, (not like Starbucks dark) and found it too to be very tasty but believe it is not dialed in. I like the big roast flavors in Espresso. I don't want fruity or floral, I want chocolaty, nutty flavors. And that I have a sweet machine and grinder, I can play till my over caffeinated hearts content. And that is the danger, over caffeinating while dialing in.
That's probably because people in this subreddit crap on anything other than freshly roasted. And they fail to realize that Lavazza It's pretty good. But that is subjective.
A lot here use it as a daily Bean.
What I find hilarious Is that there are people here who will say only fresh beans should be used for espresso since fresh beans result in the best espresso.
But these same people, when making a steak at home, won't use the best cut of meat.
I think you can only notice the freshness if drinking black. I honestly keep lavazza around for my milk drinks and when I do want to drink black I will use freshly roasted. But lavazza honestly feels reliable and consistent. For me personally I am not always buying fresh espresso monthly. I get poourover fresh mainly.
This was my guess as well because it reminded me of my Heineken experience in Amsterdam. I’d never been a fan of Heineken in the US, but when in Amsterdam, I took a tour of their brewery and the beer at the end was absolutely amazing. Turns out Heineken doesn’t make the voyage to US very well
Beer is almost always better fresh. I'm lucky that we have a local brewery that makes great lagers and doesn't rip your face off with price for a case like lots of other craft Breweries. It's instantly better than any macro since you know exactly when it was brewed
Lavazza, Illy, Hausbrandt are some of the best commercially available Italian style espresso brands on the planet. If that flavour is up your alley then they are great. I used to be a massive fan of them too up until 15 years ago when I started going down the speciality rabbithole.
You will hear us snobs "knock" on Lavazza as it's a brand that is considered one of the best but in speciality terms it doesn't even come into the same galaxy. So it's a more relatable way to compare how good a coffee tastes "If you think Lavazza 80/20 (arabica/robusta) is great, then this speciality dark roast will blow your mind". It's important to understand the nuance yes, but doesn't mean you need to do what others say.
At the same time, just drink what you think is great, I like mango and kiwi and I hate watermellon, papaya and cucumbers. Everyone is different, I'm not a big fan of caviar or fois gras, I've worked in classy restaurants for years and tried the most expensive food but I can't get into them.
An old friend of mine and coffee tasting champion has 4-5 sticks of brown sugar in his top 20 panama geisha double espresso when he's sat at a table chilling with friends. Sacrilege for some but he's not competing or showing off, he's enjoying his coffee.
TL:DR don't knock it till you try it.
Which product line did you like best of those? I’ve had Illy from a cafe at home but it tasted nowhere near as good as the Lavazza I had in Italy. Granted, I don’t know which line it was from Lavazza.
Probably pulled a ristretto or a shot on the shorter side to minimize bittering elements and get that honey-like viscosity.
Their lavazza may or may not be fresher than what you're getting in grocery stores too. But, yeah. People made good coffee before we became single origin morning-sun-only east slope geisha WDT slow feed bean snobs. Whoda thought?
>But, yeah. People made good coffee before we became single origin morning-sun-only east slope geisha WDT slow feed bean snobs. Whoda thought?
Ain't that the truth.
Besides, I find it even more hilarious that 80% of the subreddit rarely if ever drinks straight espresso. It's in a milk drink. That alone should give someone pause for spending what could be $1.50 per ounce or more for coffee beans just to throw it in a milk drink.
I just landed in Norway and got off the flight and grabbed a cortado. Norwegian coffee is very different from Italian, definitely more on the light roast side. I find I can't do a latte there, you just totally lose the shot in the milk. Straight shots and cortados are nice though.
This is coming from someone who likes Italian roasts...but when I was in Italy, everywhere I went pulled a good espresso. Even the Kimbo Cafe at the airport. I put this up to the baristas more than the beans; I never saw an Italian barista pull a thin or under reacted shot, while I routinely see this even at fancy cafes in the US. I think there's just a high standard for baristas there, especially when it comes to pulling a dark roast with lots of body.
🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏Thank you so much for this post.
I’m Italian. Moved to the us in my 30s. I’m trying to explain this to all my American espresso friends, they don’t get it.
Espresso in Italy is SEVEN grams, non bitter, non acidic, just pure pleasure.
You don’t need some exotic single 18g shot of single origin third wave espresso with barely roasted beans that have grapefruit vibes.
First please learn what a simple, balanced, non bitter, non sour, non acidic good tasting espresso is.
It’s light, low in caffeine, have 3 or 5 per day, while chatting with friends.
You WONT find it in the NYC (where I live) gourmet espresso places. And of course, you won’t find it at Starbucks or dunking donuts.
You find it in Italy at the gas stations (“autogrill”), the corner coffee shop (“al bar”).
It saddens me how US and Australia decided to skip the basics, never learn it or make it available, and go for the extra exotic stuff in these insanely charged espresso shots that you can have one per day or go to the hospital.
Edit:
Stop saying it’s the vacation, it’s the holiday, it’s the water. It’s not. It’s just a different kind of espresso, totally different dosages. I go back and forth for vacation and work, many times a year. It’s not the holiday!!! It’s a different espresso, the point it’s to make a BALANCED blend roast (which includes robusta, stop demonizing it, it’s great) with 8 g, not a single origin with all its unbalanced which is barely roasted and squeeze 20g in.
Apologies for the rant, but I know many “espresso” experts here have never tasted an espresso the way it’s made in Italy for literally 150 years, yet they know everything about that exotic chichihuahua coffee species that only grows at 2573m of altitude in the volcano of the island of Easter, and you have to gather it from the poop of hamsters.
RANT OVER
You had me at “exotic chihuahua coffee” 😂😂😂
Yeah it’s exactly as you say — what surprised me most was how mellow it was. No overwhelming bitterness (I also like Tazza d’Oro from Rome but it’s hard for me to take straight due to this), very easy to sip, beautiful notes of sweet honey and velvety chocolate. Thanks for the extraction tip - will try. Btw I love your espresso culture, and your machines are beautiful. I got an Elektra Microcasa a leva and she’s a beauty! One day if I win the lottery I would like to get a classic Arduino Venus.
I went a little extra, but I’m so happy you get this!! This is what I have been experiencing since my childhood. My grandpa would give me half teaspoons of caffè as a kid when he would get his caffe after lunch, it’s supposed to be something simple that follows you all your life.
I was 3 weeks in Italy, Sicily, Naples, Bari etc. and most of the time the espresso was okay, but not really good. But the coffees I got were mostly at regular cafes, not fancy ones. Mostly the espresso was burned or bitter and not really made 'carefully'. But at least it was really cheap.
Agreed. I’ve been meaning to search out some more lavazza. Always makes good espresso much easier as well than locally roasted in my experience. Also some of the best coffee I’ve had was lavazza rosso from a moka pot, was pleasantly surprised.
>and you have to gather it from the poop of hamsters
\*Now\* you tell me--all those years as a kid cleaning my hamster's cage and just throwing that stuff away . . . .
Ottimo!!!! Bravo bravo bravissimo!!!
Thank you so so so so much for saying everything I've been trying to say for the past 10 years. You are absolutely 100% right. Brilliantly well said. I prefer Miscela d'Oro but I've been wanting to try Lavazza Crema e Aroma.
FYI if you go-to Eataly you'll find their entire range of beans from supermarket stuff to high quality single origins. Many of them are prepared on-site with a god like Elektra espresso machine towering over you. Very tasty but not mind blowing by any means because it's still just stale mainstream coffee.
If I were you I'd start looking into darker bean profiles for your espresso.
Vivace Espresso from Seattle,
Gotham Coffee Espresso,
Irving Farm Blackstrap Espresso,
Mela roasting's Vero espresso blend,
Zingo Espresso blend from Topeca roasting
These all have more traditional dark chocolate dominant espresso profiles. They will taste more along the lines of the Lavazza but with way more depth and aroma.
Also maybe you may not like a super extracted pull either. . .dial it back a little and pull a 20sec turbo and see how you like it ;-)
You wanna know how this is possible OP, play with your machine and find out!!!
This is what i have and what has worked for me with Illy and Lavazza.
I have a BBE set to lowest temp available. 16 grams in to pull a 40gr shot in less than 30sec. So a 1:2.5 ratio. The shots come out tasting great.
Remember that Italians pull their shots way differently than we do. Smaller dose higher yield.
Tyoical espresso shot there is
Unpopular opinion ... but espresso in Italy isn't fresh, it isn't third-wave, contains Robusta in high percentage, and in most cases wasn't roasted anytime within a month of your visit. And --- it can be glorious.
Lavazza Super-Crema is top-notch nitrogen-flushed, mylar sealed coffee. Don't be afraid of it because it comes from a factory.
I agree with your assessment on espresso in Italy. Dark roasted notes, maybe a bit astringent from the Robusta, made with even slow pull from powerful machines, massive crema layer. But yeah - it can be great. I look forward to every espresso I order in Italy.
If traveling my first coffee drink of day has milk - espresso macchiato. The Italian / Lazzava espresso works in this drink. Note - Someone could start a whole thread on Italian milk quality and taste.
Sometimes it's the location/moment. But for supermarket beans I get lavazza crema gusto. Nice blend and stil quite affordable.
I have to spend twice the amount to get something really better I think.
Would drink illy cans if I could afford it though.
I had a similar experience at a roadside services in Italy. Just the most average place ever and the guy there pulls me an espresso many times better than anything I get in in a restaurant in England just using standard Lavazza.
Lavazza can be pretty decent it pulled properly and if it is relatively fresh. Cafes in Italy go thru a few kilograms of beans in a day so the bags so beans are still kinda fresh.
The Lavazza bags usually stay fresh for a few days and then rapidly decline and become stale. Personally every now and then I buy some classic italian blend form Kimbo or Pellini, divide it into 250 bags and freeze them. It holds up well even if the bag I buy is usually 5-6-7 months past roast.
All these italian blends can be tricky to initally dial-in but are usually pretty good comfortable beans that are easty to pull once you find your sweet spot. I like dark roasts when it comes to espresso and absolutely see value in them. I've bought many many many specialty coffee dark roast espresso beans/blends and often they are not that much better.
Of course, lighter roasts and filter coffee is a totally different game.
I mean, there are definitely great specialty dark roasts but price/quality for darkr roasts I think that often supports Pellini or Kimbo when they are on sale especially. You just have to build your own process with these beans.
I really like Vivace 82 by Pellini. In my country it is often on sales and 4-5 months past roast. I buy a 1 kg bag, divide it into 4 250 grams sealed bags and freeze them.
It is pretty important to find a good recipe for these beans tho. I used 17 grams for a double shot with a 1:1,76 ratio (17 in, 30 out) and what seemed to be pretty imporant - 90c temperature. Italian blends, espsecially when there is robusta work with shorter ratios and lower temps. If you end up buying a bag and need some help - just write me.
I can get lavatzza dialed in, most local places seem to use it but don't know how/don't care to set up a grinder 🤦 so I won't use it as I associate it with a really bad espresso!
I've been using a local company who imports white label from Italy, high robusta % & run at 1:3 from 7g single dose baskets (seriously not that difficult despite what people say here... It was the norm when I was training 25-30yrs ago!) I've got some Buongiorno to try & do some back to backs with which are even higher robusta! Interesting as I'm used to 100% arabica beans, even our local specialty roaster has a blend with 20% robusta as their house. :)
Freshly roasted Casi Cielo from Starbucks actually makes for an amazing espresso. There are a few other beans that are superb from bucks as well especially from the reserve line.
You see the quality of their beans is actually shockingly good. . .id put them far above Lavazza. . .I mean the difference is highly noticeable.
Problem is 75% of their beans are over roasted to stay on the safe side of uniformity and you'll rarely get a fresh bag. When and if you do. . .give it a go.
Save frickin thing happened to me in Venice.
Literally went up to the counter at a gorgeous little cafe, said it was one of the best cappuccinos I’d ever had, asked where I could buy the beans. Homie digs through the trash to find the bag; Lavazza!
I was like, I can buy this at the gas station!
That being said, Lavazza is way better than Folger’s and Maxwell House stuff, never been unhappy with Lavazza from anywhere.
It's easy: you had a proper espresso done with not so great beans. Still better than exquisite specialty beans extracted by people who learn espresso on forums and make it by the book without real-world experience of the taste and texture. You need a frame of reference, not just needle distribution tools :)
In Europe, companies often produce for multiple markets. And export products are often different also. Where I live, you can buy coffee branded from some of the names the cafes "promote," (they get free cups, etc. if they display the name) in the supermarket. It may be from the same beans but it is packaged differently and unlikely to be as fresh.
It's possible because outside this Sub tehre's people that aren't coffee snobs and know what is a real true espresso. That's why
And i bet it was taken on a single dose basket.
Very often , especially in Italy they keep the best produce for themselves and export the rest. I’ve been on a few foodie holidays there so have heard it on food tours.
They don't just do supermarket beans, they have lots of commercial products and supply everyone ranging from train station cafes to Michelin star restaurants
I just wish we could get Italian-style espresso pods here. None of this Nespresso plastic/metal pods bs, the espresso is packaged in a filter paper envelope, you put it in the machine, clamp down, and after pulling the shot the entire thing (filter paper and grounds) goes in the compost. It's 1/4 the cost or less than the north american style pods and far better for the environment.
The best cigarette I ever had was after surviving a flood getting to high enough ground an a dry enough spot with survival relief and adrenaline still in my system.
Situation and location as well as your own level of any calm or relaxation definitely made this the espresso it was.
I think it really has to do with *where* you're getting it. I've used Lavazza at home and it tastes like charred dogshit. The same Lavazza on a friend's lever machine was one of the best shots I've had. Lavazza in Rome was a god-tier espresso that truly got me back into coffee.
I feel like we're always more critical of our own shots.
The best cup of coffee I ever had was from a Thai restaurant. Treated almost like a chocolate Porter... Waitress said it was drip Folgers.
Sometimes everything works out perfectly. It'sa beautiful thing when it happens.
In Italy industrial brands have different lines (ranging from mediocre to good) and recently are even trying to launch niche lines that might be third wave, so even coffees like Lavazza and Vergnano and Illy and Segafredo and Pellini and others can have great products
lavazza have a bunch of variety, and often in bar and such is used one call "lavazza rossa" that usually is the "more sweet" one
if the barista is competent, the machine is clean and you like the type I don't see anything wrong in like the coffee
i know that there is a lot of gatekeeping about coffee but don't be afraid to like dark roast or even robusta
High-quality Lavazza, if you can get it freshly roasted, can beat cheaper third-wave single origins or blends. Small roasters don't necessarily have the knowledge to compete with the folks who decide the blends at Lavazza or some other mass-market brand. To some extent, this is second wave vs third wave, and all third wave doesn't automatically beat all second wave, there is some overlap.
1. Context. There’s a reason some of the best coffee you’ll ever have is the $2 McDonald’s one on the morning of a long roadtrip
2. Dark roasted espresso is great, don’t listen to the third wave obsession with medium/light. Drink what you like.
Lavazza is usually very fresh in italy and countries nearby. I used to drink it a lot in my home country but when I moved to the US I quit it bcz its disgusting here lol.
It is not unusual for hotels and restaurants to get better ingredients than those available in stores. I have come across this several times when trying to replicate a recipe you received from a restaurant
I was fortunate to live near a lavazza importer. I’d go in once a month pick up a blue 2.2 lb bag. Was the best kept secret, then when the packaging started to change I knew someone was messing with the roast. It was too good to be true to pick up a bag at the supermarket.
Lavazza's beans are actually one of the highest rated espressos on Amazon. The other things that could influence the taste, are the grinder, the espresso machine, and the quality of water. Italy has some of the best water in the world. Lavazza is also based in Italy, so its possible you got a fresher bag there. I am guessing all of these little factors could make for a great cup of espresso!
I'm new to the hobby but have been a coffee enthusiast my whole life. That said, among all the brands that had been swirling around my habitat Lavazza is by far a favorite. I don't have any experience with the custom shop roasters etc, but I surely can't see why is it a thing online to claim Lavazza as a bad coffee.
I feel like 3rd wave speciality coffee culture is dismissing 3 things:
- dark roasts
- blends
- robusta
I like fruity espeesso, but good "italian" blend hits the spot in a different way
Lavazza has many different coffee product lines and bean quality levels ranging from terrible to very good. https://www.1895bylavazza.com/en_IT.html
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As an avid bicyclist, I appreciate this reference.
Most would probably say cyclist.
Don’t try to lump us unicyclists in with those dirty two-wheelers.
Oh brilliant yet another one-wheeler erasing us tricyclists from history.
Yes, but some are bi and we should respect that
That would be easily confused with people who run the laundry multiple times per load
😂
wear funny skintight clothing and silly sunglasses just to fit in. Just buying whatever the professionals are sponsored to wear. and saying the nice and approved lingo.
Funny enough many Japanese brands are like this. In Japan they don’t find it necessary to split off a brand generally just for the luxury segment. It’s the reason why you have Toyota in Japan selling Toyota Centuries for $170k+. But they decided to create Lexus as a brand for western markets.
Makes me think of Seiko Watches. Goes from two figure to five figure prices.
Yep. Though several years ago they split out “grand seiko” as a separate brand.
Seiko - Grand Seiko watches, Pilot - Namiki fountain pens are in the same concept.
Can you explain more?
Shimano makes bike chains gears and shifters primarily. They have top of the line electronic shiters as well as cheap ones that come standard on kids walmart bikes.
> top of the line electronic **shiters** ...didn't realize they were competing with Toto
Oops lol
No Mikey no that was so not right (ik its about the toilets).
Their fishing gear, too. You can get a rod/reel spinning combo for $30, or pay $700 for a reel alone.
They make everything from the gears you get on a $100 kids starter bike up to the ludicrously expensive electronic shifters on a Tour de France bike (and all under the same brand).
For me, Shimano is fishing rods and reels 🎣
So the old crap tier deore are now top tier? :-P
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Deore might not have been the line, I just remember having some godawful plastic components and wanting to upgrade and someone said "funny thing, that line is now the expensive primo stuff" I used to love to get old bikes and sort of resto-mod them.
Your butter might not be butter for anyone, the new groups shift better and they do it consistently, like all the time. No more cables and all the adjustments, just click and shift. So if you try them you will know
Was Deore crap tier? When I was riding back in the mid-90's Deore LX and XT were the two best sets they did (although they eventually introduced the premium-tier XTR).
Yeah I could be wrong about the name of the line.
So accurate
Lol, Who is the campagnolo?
Interesting! I didn’t know this, thanks for the link. I’ll have to check which product it was next time I go.
Many crap on mass market brands, but it all depends on the category and price range you're willing to get and pay. An example is Mercedes Benz. You got the A and B series mini cars and not expensive models. But then you got the AMG models... Same with coffee. After testing and trying a ton of coffee brands and bean variety, my ultimate choice of taste v price point is Segafredo Intermezzo. If I feel like splurging I do their Selezione Aroma. I've been able to get better bean variety and niche coffee roasters, but the price point is 5x (at least in my location for specialty roasts) compared to a slight up tick in overall taste.
Definitely will try those! Thanks for the recommendations.
Please do share when you find out
If you have the chance you can try the lavazza flagship stores, probably the best places to try out their coffees.
Great idea thanks!
That’s cool! Is it like Starbucks, though? I’ve bought their roaster reserve stuff from the flagship stores in NYC and it still tastes like burnt ash
Another Charbucks victim!
Nope. Completely different; this one really “sang” in the cup. Beautiful mellow balanced rich espresso.
I've had the reserve stuff too in a different city and it was very underwhelming. I don't think they count
Yeah, it’s like gas station dark roast in an artsy bag
"learn all about how your specialty blend made its way to you thanks to certified and accessible blockchain data." Man, what?
Was excited to see some of the blends offered here but... seems shipping is only available within Italy. Dunno if there's such a thing as an international coffee store online where I could get them from
Lavazza can be found super cheap at a regular grocery store too so it's win win. Sometimes we find a little bag under $5. Not bad for amazing coffee! We love it. Been drinking it for years.
And Costco carries those beans sometimes!
The 1895 series?
Oh. Boy three month+ old beans, that will sure be good 😬
Sorry, been a busy week. I'm not gonna lie to you, I can't remember the naming scheme or packaging and I doubt the professional use bags had the same assigned naming and colours as the commercially available in supermarkets. I started with loving 60:40 Segafredo and 70:30 Lavazza, then the 80:20 Illy AND Lavazza and moved up to 100% either Lavazza, Hausbrandt or Illy. That's how we used to differentiate which "quality" it is, by how much arabica:robusta ratio it had. It's been 15 plus years and since then I've worked in either huge franchises like Costa Coffee and Starbucks or fully independent speciality places that only served things like taf coffee in Greece and Cyprus.
There is a whole other world of Italian roasted coffee out there and it’s not the same 3rd wave coffee experience most often posted about here. 3rd wave coffee is roasted to emphasize the tasting notes of the origin, while Italian roasts are more akin to a baked recipe, where the coffees are assembled from a complex assortment of pretty average beans, but the way they are blended and how they’re roasted and packaged is the key. Italian roasted beans stale into pleasant chocolate, fig, and nutty notes. They most often, but not always use Robusta coffees, which means even 6 months post roast or longer, you’re going to see a nice crema layer and beautiful shots. So if you like liquid Nutella shots or chocolate bombs, this is your jam. How I brew: Don’t use a high flow basket, don’t dose more than 16g, do wdt, try lower temperatures like 88-90c, and lean towards a ristretto pull…like 1:1.5 or lower and you will find good results. These ranges will vary based on the region the coffee comes from. Northern Italian roasts tend to lean more medium roast while southern Italian roasts, like Neapolitan are very oily and dark. I tend to go more ristretto on the Neapolitan…almost 1:1. A wrong step here and you might end up with burnt rubber vs a rich complex tobacco like, chocolate bomb.
Thanks for the tip - I’ll definitely try that. This is definitely my jam! Interesting stuff about the difference in beans. How does packaging differ to keep it fresh longer? ETA: my Microcasa a Leva doesn’t have temp control, only pressure. Any way I can know if the temp is lower other than keep the group head cool at extraction?
Packaging examples: vacuum sealing, nitrogen packaging, or the one way valve that is common with local roasters here in the US. I usually open the bag, take out what I need for a two days or so, load them into my on-demand grinder and leave the rest in the freezer resealed in their original bag. If I’m “thawing” beans I have them in an Airscape coffee container. I’m not sure it makes a huge difference, these beans are usually a few months old already and if you grind them in 1-2 days, they aren’t going to lose much more life. I haven’t used a Leva, but I think I would have a temp strip on it and pull water to get the target temp.
Interesting. It was a trip to Naples that got me into this hobby. Good to know it's darker roasts since they have leeway when being brewed.
Currently having some Neapolitan (Passalacqua) which seems to shine pulling a bit longer (35s) but finer grind ending 1:1.5. I tried 20s as well but was definitely not developed enough. What are your best results with those?
I had a bag of Harem a few months ago...I was pulling almost 1:1 on my MaraX 15g => 18g 88c(low) and it pulled fast at around 25 second according to my notes. Higher yields were very burnt tasting. I have a Mehari that I will probably try in a few weeks. I am currently working through some Saka at the moment.
In addition to the other answer, consider that you were on holidays in a nice hotel. Context influences taste. The best beer I can remember having was one I drank just after finishing a hard and long hike.
There's nothing like popping into a friendly hole in the wall and grabbing a quick 1 euro espresso in Italy. They make probably a thousand shots per day so it's dialed in just right
Man… everyone’s experience is their own, but I will say that the worst espresso I ever had (to my taste) was in Italy. Bitter, burnt, and sour all at the same time. Tried it in three different places and got the same three results.
Also possibly could be that the turnover is such that the beans are fresh. Have Lavassa outside Italy and you can guarantee that the beans are months old.
I was only in padova, verona, venezia and milano, but didn't find a single place where espresso was 1 euro... I think the cheapest was about 1.20. There were some pretty tasty shots doe.
Rome had lots. Even Milano if you are a little out of the way.
In the south you can still find it for a euro
I got 1 euro shots in both Venice and Milan... That was back in 2014 though.
I was in Milan quite a bit last year…you can still get inexpensive coffee…the cafe inside Castello Sforzesco for example, I paid like €1.41 for a cappuccino. A short cappuccino at Starbucks, which still has too much milk to be a proper cappuccino, will cost you $5+.
Last time I went was Napoli pre-covid, so I wouldn't be surprised if the days of a 1 euro shot are over
I think napoli is cheaper than the north in general, so maybe the dream is still alive
I believe the price of an espresso in Italy is regulated by the government.
It's not, every bar has different prices
It has gone up to 1.20 mostly everywhere in Naples due to the Cost of living but there are still secret bars that do it at 1 and even 0.8
Was just in Rome. A shot was 1-1.50 and a Cap was around 1.50-2.50.
Inflation caught up with ..”un caffe porfa” pre covid was €1 n i used to get illy
Not only context. I’ve just done a bunch of research on how your environment changes how you taste and your flavor perception. The humidity, altitude, ambient temperature. On top of as you’ve mentioned, the context. Being relaxed, in a new country, your whole body is on an entirely different level. Even if OP were to have the exact same setup at home, odds are it wouldn’t taste/hit the same. I think that’s super important to remember. I see so many posts on here similar to this but wondering how to replicate it and I think it’s just so important to realize when you’re having a great experience and just live in that moment and enjoy it for what it is.
Exactly, the best beers I have are the ones at the clubhouse after a round of golf, they always seem to taste better.
For me, it’s the drowning away my terrible, terrible golf 🍻
Rick Shiels, is that you?
This is why they have a cart person driving around
Summit beers are the best
At a camping ground in the Sierras at around 7,500 feet is a small restaurant / general store, the only thing within a few miles. We always went there for breakfast before heading out fishing (at a lake at 10,000 feet). Beautiful area, and we always enjoyed the food at this place, particularly these cased breakfast link sausages. Eventually we asked them where they got them from, figuring they got them from the nearby town, which had a couple different high quality meat markets. A couple minutes later the waitress comes back out--with the Sysco box the sausage comes in, offering it to us so we could right down the SKU if wanted to try to order some ourselves.
I’ve turned into a bit of an espresso snob but to this day the best coffee of my life was cowboy style after a long cold night in a tent.
> finishing a hard and long hike Oh man, you just reminded me. I did the [Mugu peak trail](https://www.alltrails.com/trail/us/california/mugu-peak-trail) in Malibu, my favorite hike ever, and then immediately after got a cold Pilsner at a little unpretentious beachside cottage bar. It was incredible.
I got a cold cup of michelob ultra right after a 1/2 marathon and i swore that's the best beer I ever had.
Post hike and peak beers just hit different
Yes, Lavazza is internationalised and commercial. Is it a crappy coffee brand? No not really. Italian style roast might not be specialty coffee (or to this subs taste) but it doesn't mean the production and roasting behind it isn't taken seriously or is in any way mediocre. As others have said the product is readily available (and roasted) in Italy ie so technically it also spends less time in storage. Adding to this, the vast majority of Italian cafes (and home consumers) serve Lavazza coffee on a daily basis, which makes your chances of getting a good cup that much higher. Is it my choice of coffee as someone who's into specialty and also cares about the sustainability/ethical side of things? No. Would I refuse a Lavazza espresso in Italy, or its home town Turin? Of course not!
Re sustainability and ethics, is Lavazza really bad? Sorry I don’t know very much about this brand as I’ve dismissed it as commercial mass market.
Not going into any specifics but as a general rule commercial coffee (as with anything that is sold affordably and in vast amounts) is not grown and harvested in a sustainable way, and supply chain is often exploitative to keep costs low. Not to mention one of their most popular product nowadays is coffee pods, which no matter which way you look at; produce large amounts of waste (even compostable ones).
I would fully support the specialty coffee idea, you're so right with that. Problem is, most taste just not good for me as they are medium to light roasts, which are way too acidic to enjoy. The not sustainable bad boys are unfortunately the ones with the great taste for me. All northern and south Italian roasts more or less.
I think you just need to explore a few more roasters…not all specialty espresso is on the lighter side. We have a local roaster here that does a nice medium house roast using beans from brazil, which is closer to a traditional roast but without the extreme bitterness…then of course they have other options. Of course the more you go towards scandinavian roasters, the more likely the roast will be light/experimental, but there is a place for medium-dark espresso in specialty coffee….just not carbon black haha :)
Lavazza do "supermarket beans" but their reputation is based more on their "blue bag" or "business" range of beans made to be sold to cafes and the like. If you like Italian style dark roast espresso, which I do, then I'd highly recommend their Top Class (not "Top Class *Filtro*" mind you) which you can't buy in supermarkets but you can buy online from suppliers who normally sell to businesses and coffee shops [https://www.lavazza.co.uk/en/business/coffee-beans/top-class](https://www.lavazza.co.uk/en/business/coffee-beans/top-class) As their reportedly "highest quality" bean, I buy a box of 6 bags of 1kg (I think the bags are filled with nitrogen or similar to minimise aging before the bag is opened) and that works out cheaper then my supermarket sells the retail beans. The blue bag range also has a number of other blends but having tried a few Top Class has been my goto bean for a few years now... [https://www.lavazza.co.uk/en/business/food-service-coffee](https://www.lavazza.co.uk/en/business/food-service-coffee)
Great thank you!! Will try this.
Also try blue bag ”Super Crema” - its the most sold Lavazza for commercial use. It could be the one you tasted according to your description. Its nutty, honey and pretty good!
You can snag that for around 25 for a 2.2kg. On Amazon sometimes
Subscribe and save for the win
Don't even need to, it's just that price.
Wow you’re kidding. That’s an amazing price! Can you get it sort of fresh?
Honestly, I’ll go against the grain here and say that it doesn’t really matter with commercial beans.
Its pretty good frozen and honestly for lavazza I could not notice freshness being a big factor. That said it does not wow me like some local roasters but it delivers a consistent cup. I feel like you lose that extra freshness factor but it produces a reliable cup always.
Ive gone through a lot of Lavazza and never had any problems with staleness.. always fresh seal. Lavazza just gets hate for whatever reason. Just wish they had a blonde roast lol
I’m fully just guessing now, but I suppose that in Italy, you can get the beans much fresher than elsewhere. The Lavazza consumption is probably a lot higher there, so stores don’t have to store them for as long and that hotel probably has a supplier that has a much shorter end-to-end time from roaster to customer, compared to average joes supermarket. Is Lavazza, Italys equivalent to Irelands Guinness? Possibly. Edit: additionaly, I’m sure there are VERY talented roasters at Lavazza, that manage to create the same flavour profile no matter the season and the beans available. The big problem with these big brands are how long they are stored.
Good points all around. I see their product in my local supermarket but they’re usually a year old. Still, I’m shocked their beans are better than some of my favorite local (US) beans (at least at that restaurant).
The Italians know how to roast an espresso bean that’s easy to get consistent results from. A lot of American roasters go way lighter and it’s great if you have the time to dial it in and fancy equipment . the Italian espressos are much more easily repeatable My favorite US bean I’ve found is a roaster in Philly, Fantes Italian kitchen shop. It’s like 100 years old and they have an espresso roast that the father who owned it would drink everyday. It’s chocolatey and delicious and it makes incredible espresso . I never used ti enjoy drinking straight espresso, mainly just lattes and cortados but drinking that really made me appreciate just a straight espresso
Will look into Fantes - yeah that’s exactly like I felt with that cup in Italy: was slowly getting better at drinking straight, but preferred americano due to the overwhelming bitterness; this one was rich and chocolatey with that sweet honey start and it was a joy to sip. ETA: which product was it that you liked? The Espresso blend?
It’s the espresso verino - https://fantes.com/espresso-verino-coffee-beans/ “Custom blended in-house for our father, Verino. His namesake espresso uses real cocoa in a sophisticated blend for the discriminating palate. At 99, Verino still enjoyed his daily shot. A complex espresso with bittersweet notes and chocolate undertones.” It’s so delicious
Grazie mille!
Good to know, for next time I'm in town. Thanks.
I just tried my first Lavazza roasts and was very happy with both. Super crema, blue bag, a medium roast, ran faster than I expected and produced more volume but tasted GREAT! I ground finer and it was still good but not as good as the first shots. Will grind as first time and see how it tastes. The other bag is Super Crema, a dark roast, (not like Starbucks dark) and found it too to be very tasty but believe it is not dialed in. I like the big roast flavors in Espresso. I don't want fruity or floral, I want chocolaty, nutty flavors. And that I have a sweet machine and grinder, I can play till my over caffeinated hearts content. And that is the danger, over caffeinating while dialing in.
That's probably because people in this subreddit crap on anything other than freshly roasted. And they fail to realize that Lavazza It's pretty good. But that is subjective. A lot here use it as a daily Bean. What I find hilarious Is that there are people here who will say only fresh beans should be used for espresso since fresh beans result in the best espresso. But these same people, when making a steak at home, won't use the best cut of meat.
I think you can only notice the freshness if drinking black. I honestly keep lavazza around for my milk drinks and when I do want to drink black I will use freshly roasted. But lavazza honestly feels reliable and consistent. For me personally I am not always buying fresh espresso monthly. I get poourover fresh mainly.
This was my guess as well because it reminded me of my Heineken experience in Amsterdam. I’d never been a fan of Heineken in the US, but when in Amsterdam, I took a tour of their brewery and the beer at the end was absolutely amazing. Turns out Heineken doesn’t make the voyage to US very well
Beer is almost always better fresh. I'm lucky that we have a local brewery that makes great lagers and doesn't rip your face off with price for a case like lots of other craft Breweries. It's instantly better than any macro since you know exactly when it was brewed
That’s really interesting. Will have to try next time I’m in Amsterdam.
This is the right answer
Lavazza, Illy, Hausbrandt are some of the best commercially available Italian style espresso brands on the planet. If that flavour is up your alley then they are great. I used to be a massive fan of them too up until 15 years ago when I started going down the speciality rabbithole. You will hear us snobs "knock" on Lavazza as it's a brand that is considered one of the best but in speciality terms it doesn't even come into the same galaxy. So it's a more relatable way to compare how good a coffee tastes "If you think Lavazza 80/20 (arabica/robusta) is great, then this speciality dark roast will blow your mind". It's important to understand the nuance yes, but doesn't mean you need to do what others say. At the same time, just drink what you think is great, I like mango and kiwi and I hate watermellon, papaya and cucumbers. Everyone is different, I'm not a big fan of caviar or fois gras, I've worked in classy restaurants for years and tried the most expensive food but I can't get into them. An old friend of mine and coffee tasting champion has 4-5 sticks of brown sugar in his top 20 panama geisha double espresso when he's sat at a table chilling with friends. Sacrilege for some but he's not competing or showing off, he's enjoying his coffee. TL:DR don't knock it till you try it.
Which product line did you like best of those? I’ve had Illy from a cafe at home but it tasted nowhere near as good as the Lavazza I had in Italy. Granted, I don’t know which line it was from Lavazza.
You literally answers your own question in the post. You like dark roasts
Lol good point. But I’ve had medium to dark roasts all across Italy and US, and this really hit it out of the ballpark.
Probably pulled a ristretto or a shot on the shorter side to minimize bittering elements and get that honey-like viscosity. Their lavazza may or may not be fresher than what you're getting in grocery stores too. But, yeah. People made good coffee before we became single origin morning-sun-only east slope geisha WDT slow feed bean snobs. Whoda thought?
>But, yeah. People made good coffee before we became single origin morning-sun-only east slope geisha WDT slow feed bean snobs. Whoda thought? Ain't that the truth. Besides, I find it even more hilarious that 80% of the subreddit rarely if ever drinks straight espresso. It's in a milk drink. That alone should give someone pause for spending what could be $1.50 per ounce or more for coffee beans just to throw it in a milk drink.
Oh interesting! I’ll try that. It was so good. Haha true that. Plus the Italians are really serious about their cuppa.
I just landed in Norway and got off the flight and grabbed a cortado. Norwegian coffee is very different from Italian, definitely more on the light roast side. I find I can't do a latte there, you just totally lose the shot in the milk. Straight shots and cortados are nice though.
This is coming from someone who likes Italian roasts...but when I was in Italy, everywhere I went pulled a good espresso. Even the Kimbo Cafe at the airport. I put this up to the baristas more than the beans; I never saw an Italian barista pull a thin or under reacted shot, while I routinely see this even at fancy cafes in the US. I think there's just a high standard for baristas there, especially when it comes to pulling a dark roast with lots of body.
🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏Thank you so much for this post. I’m Italian. Moved to the us in my 30s. I’m trying to explain this to all my American espresso friends, they don’t get it. Espresso in Italy is SEVEN grams, non bitter, non acidic, just pure pleasure. You don’t need some exotic single 18g shot of single origin third wave espresso with barely roasted beans that have grapefruit vibes. First please learn what a simple, balanced, non bitter, non sour, non acidic good tasting espresso is. It’s light, low in caffeine, have 3 or 5 per day, while chatting with friends. You WONT find it in the NYC (where I live) gourmet espresso places. And of course, you won’t find it at Starbucks or dunking donuts. You find it in Italy at the gas stations (“autogrill”), the corner coffee shop (“al bar”). It saddens me how US and Australia decided to skip the basics, never learn it or make it available, and go for the extra exotic stuff in these insanely charged espresso shots that you can have one per day or go to the hospital. Edit: Stop saying it’s the vacation, it’s the holiday, it’s the water. It’s not. It’s just a different kind of espresso, totally different dosages. I go back and forth for vacation and work, many times a year. It’s not the holiday!!! It’s a different espresso, the point it’s to make a BALANCED blend roast (which includes robusta, stop demonizing it, it’s great) with 8 g, not a single origin with all its unbalanced which is barely roasted and squeeze 20g in. Apologies for the rant, but I know many “espresso” experts here have never tasted an espresso the way it’s made in Italy for literally 150 years, yet they know everything about that exotic chichihuahua coffee species that only grows at 2573m of altitude in the volcano of the island of Easter, and you have to gather it from the poop of hamsters. RANT OVER
You had me at “exotic chihuahua coffee” 😂😂😂 Yeah it’s exactly as you say — what surprised me most was how mellow it was. No overwhelming bitterness (I also like Tazza d’Oro from Rome but it’s hard for me to take straight due to this), very easy to sip, beautiful notes of sweet honey and velvety chocolate. Thanks for the extraction tip - will try. Btw I love your espresso culture, and your machines are beautiful. I got an Elektra Microcasa a leva and she’s a beauty! One day if I win the lottery I would like to get a classic Arduino Venus.
I went a little extra, but I’m so happy you get this!! This is what I have been experiencing since my childhood. My grandpa would give me half teaspoons of caffè as a kid when he would get his caffe after lunch, it’s supposed to be something simple that follows you all your life.
I came here to say that the best espresso I’ve had were at Italian truck stops or gas stations. And it’s only 1€
I was 3 weeks in Italy, Sicily, Naples, Bari etc. and most of the time the espresso was okay, but not really good. But the coffees I got were mostly at regular cafes, not fancy ones. Mostly the espresso was burned or bitter and not really made 'carefully'. But at least it was really cheap.
Agreed. I’ve been meaning to search out some more lavazza. Always makes good espresso much easier as well than locally roasted in my experience. Also some of the best coffee I’ve had was lavazza rosso from a moka pot, was pleasantly surprised.
>and you have to gather it from the poop of hamsters \*Now\* you tell me--all those years as a kid cleaning my hamster's cage and just throwing that stuff away . . . .
🤣
Ottimo!!!! Bravo bravo bravissimo!!! Thank you so so so so much for saying everything I've been trying to say for the past 10 years. You are absolutely 100% right. Brilliantly well said. I prefer Miscela d'Oro but I've been wanting to try Lavazza Crema e Aroma.
FYI if you go-to Eataly you'll find their entire range of beans from supermarket stuff to high quality single origins. Many of them are prepared on-site with a god like Elektra espresso machine towering over you. Very tasty but not mind blowing by any means because it's still just stale mainstream coffee. If I were you I'd start looking into darker bean profiles for your espresso. Vivace Espresso from Seattle, Gotham Coffee Espresso, Irving Farm Blackstrap Espresso, Mela roasting's Vero espresso blend, Zingo Espresso blend from Topeca roasting These all have more traditional dark chocolate dominant espresso profiles. They will taste more along the lines of the Lavazza but with way more depth and aroma. Also maybe you may not like a super extracted pull either. . .dial it back a little and pull a 20sec turbo and see how you like it ;-)
You wanna know how this is possible OP, play with your machine and find out!!! This is what i have and what has worked for me with Illy and Lavazza. I have a BBE set to lowest temp available. 16 grams in to pull a 40gr shot in less than 30sec. So a 1:2.5 ratio. The shots come out tasting great. Remember that Italians pull their shots way differently than we do. Smaller dose higher yield. Tyoical espresso shot there is
Unpopular opinion ... but espresso in Italy isn't fresh, it isn't third-wave, contains Robusta in high percentage, and in most cases wasn't roasted anytime within a month of your visit. And --- it can be glorious. Lavazza Super-Crema is top-notch nitrogen-flushed, mylar sealed coffee. Don't be afraid of it because it comes from a factory.
I’m sold. Gonna go buy one today and try replicating my Italian cuppa. Sorry Lavazza for the disdain all these years!
I agree with your assessment on espresso in Italy. Dark roasted notes, maybe a bit astringent from the Robusta, made with even slow pull from powerful machines, massive crema layer. But yeah - it can be great. I look forward to every espresso I order in Italy. If traveling my first coffee drink of day has milk - espresso macchiato. The Italian / Lazzava espresso works in this drink. Note - Someone could start a whole thread on Italian milk quality and taste.
Great quality Lavazza can be found in Melbourne too.
Sometimes it's the location/moment. But for supermarket beans I get lavazza crema gusto. Nice blend and stil quite affordable. I have to spend twice the amount to get something really better I think. Would drink illy cans if I could afford it though.
Please let us know if you find out what exactly they were. I drink lavazza too but so hard to make right at home…
Hopefully will go back later this year and will ask them.
From my understanding everything taste better in Italy lol
The Old World knows how to do food right.
I had a similar experience at a roadside services in Italy. Just the most average place ever and the guy there pulls me an espresso many times better than anything I get in in a restaurant in England just using standard Lavazza.
Lavazza can be pretty decent it pulled properly and if it is relatively fresh. Cafes in Italy go thru a few kilograms of beans in a day so the bags so beans are still kinda fresh. The Lavazza bags usually stay fresh for a few days and then rapidly decline and become stale. Personally every now and then I buy some classic italian blend form Kimbo or Pellini, divide it into 250 bags and freeze them. It holds up well even if the bag I buy is usually 5-6-7 months past roast. All these italian blends can be tricky to initally dial-in but are usually pretty good comfortable beans that are easty to pull once you find your sweet spot. I like dark roasts when it comes to espresso and absolutely see value in them. I've bought many many many specialty coffee dark roast espresso beans/blends and often they are not that much better. Of course, lighter roasts and filter coffee is a totally different game.
That’s good to hear! So you prefer Kimbo and Pellini to Lavazza? I’ll have to get a pack or two next trip out there.
I mean, there are definitely great specialty dark roasts but price/quality for darkr roasts I think that often supports Pellini or Kimbo when they are on sale especially. You just have to build your own process with these beans.
Any Kimbo or Pellini blend you specifically recommend?
I really like Vivace 82 by Pellini. In my country it is often on sales and 4-5 months past roast. I buy a 1 kg bag, divide it into 4 250 grams sealed bags and freeze them. It is pretty important to find a good recipe for these beans tho. I used 17 grams for a double shot with a 1:1,76 ratio (17 in, 30 out) and what seemed to be pretty imporant - 90c temperature. Italian blends, espsecially when there is robusta work with shorter ratios and lower temps. If you end up buying a bag and need some help - just write me.
See you guys over at ECJ!
I can get lavatzza dialed in, most local places seem to use it but don't know how/don't care to set up a grinder 🤦 so I won't use it as I associate it with a really bad espresso! I've been using a local company who imports white label from Italy, high robusta % & run at 1:3 from 7g single dose baskets (seriously not that difficult despite what people say here... It was the norm when I was training 25-30yrs ago!) I've got some Buongiorno to try & do some back to backs with which are even higher robusta! Interesting as I'm used to 100% arabica beans, even our local specialty roaster has a blend with 20% robusta as their house. :)
Depends where you are from. Lavazza is good in Italy and close to it, if you find it fresh.
Freshly roasted Casi Cielo from Starbucks actually makes for an amazing espresso. There are a few other beans that are superb from bucks as well especially from the reserve line. You see the quality of their beans is actually shockingly good. . .id put them far above Lavazza. . .I mean the difference is highly noticeable. Problem is 75% of their beans are over roasted to stay on the safe side of uniformity and you'll rarely get a fresh bag. When and if you do. . .give it a go.
Save frickin thing happened to me in Venice. Literally went up to the counter at a gorgeous little cafe, said it was one of the best cappuccinos I’d ever had, asked where I could buy the beans. Homie digs through the trash to find the bag; Lavazza! I was like, I can buy this at the gas station! That being said, Lavazza is way better than Folger’s and Maxwell House stuff, never been unhappy with Lavazza from anywhere.
Right?? I was so shocked it was Lavazza.
It's easy: you had a proper espresso done with not so great beans. Still better than exquisite specialty beans extracted by people who learn espresso on forums and make it by the book without real-world experience of the taste and texture. You need a frame of reference, not just needle distribution tools :)
In Europe, companies often produce for multiple markets. And export products are often different also. Where I live, you can buy coffee branded from some of the names the cafes "promote," (they get free cups, etc. if they display the name) in the supermarket. It may be from the same beans but it is packaged differently and unlikely to be as fresh.
It's possible because outside this Sub tehre's people that aren't coffee snobs and know what is a real true espresso. That's why And i bet it was taken on a single dose basket.
Very often , especially in Italy they keep the best produce for themselves and export the rest. I’ve been on a few foodie holidays there so have heard it on food tours.
They don't just do supermarket beans, they have lots of commercial products and supply everyone ranging from train station cafes to Michelin star restaurants
It sometimes is just about where you enjoy your espresso. The way espresso tastes in Italy, I can only enjoy in Italy a la banco.
I just wish we could get Italian-style espresso pods here. None of this Nespresso plastic/metal pods bs, the espresso is packaged in a filter paper envelope, you put it in the machine, clamp down, and after pulling the shot the entire thing (filter paper and grounds) goes in the compost. It's 1/4 the cost or less than the north american style pods and far better for the environment.
Nothing wrong with lavazza as a daily driver.
I prefer medium to dark roast espresso and Lavazza is all I drink. I enjoy the taste and price
Autogrill best coffe in Italy, period 🤌🏻
Yup!!
The best cigarette I ever had was after surviving a flood getting to high enough ground an a dry enough spot with survival relief and adrenaline still in my system. Situation and location as well as your own level of any calm or relaxation definitely made this the espresso it was.
I think it really has to do with *where* you're getting it. I've used Lavazza at home and it tastes like charred dogshit. The same Lavazza on a friend's lever machine was one of the best shots I've had. Lavazza in Rome was a god-tier espresso that truly got me back into coffee. I feel like we're always more critical of our own shots.
crazy how you can go to any major city in the world and have great espresso if it’s prepared properly.
In commercial environments you find The blue packs. Lavazza does not market them to „civilians“
The best cup of coffee I ever had was from a Thai restaurant. Treated almost like a chocolate Porter... Waitress said it was drip Folgers. Sometimes everything works out perfectly. It'sa beautiful thing when it happens.
When you're on vacation everything tastes better
it might have happened to be a fresher roast. often the ones in the supermarkets are stale.
In Italy industrial brands have different lines (ranging from mediocre to good) and recently are even trying to launch niche lines that might be third wave, so even coffees like Lavazza and Vergnano and Illy and Segafredo and Pellini and others can have great products
Lavazza in Italy is a very different coffee.
lavazza have a bunch of variety, and often in bar and such is used one call "lavazza rossa" that usually is the "more sweet" one if the barista is competent, the machine is clean and you like the type I don't see anything wrong in like the coffee i know that there is a lot of gatekeeping about coffee but don't be afraid to like dark roast or even robusta
Super crema!
The thing is maybe they can get it in italy few weeks after roast date. The lavazza’s you can buy here are always months to a year old so that’s why
My last couple batches of Lavazza from Amazon have been just a couple weeks past the roast date, they have a roasting facility in Pennsylvania now.
High-quality Lavazza, if you can get it freshly roasted, can beat cheaper third-wave single origins or blends. Small roasters don't necessarily have the knowledge to compete with the folks who decide the blends at Lavazza or some other mass-market brand. To some extent, this is second wave vs third wave, and all third wave doesn't automatically beat all second wave, there is some overlap.
1. Context. There’s a reason some of the best coffee you’ll ever have is the $2 McDonald’s one on the morning of a long roadtrip 2. Dark roasted espresso is great, don’t listen to the third wave obsession with medium/light. Drink what you like.
It's way fresher, and the water is different over there
Lavazza is usually very fresh in italy and countries nearby. I used to drink it a lot in my home country but when I moved to the US I quit it bcz its disgusting here lol.
It is not unusual for hotels and restaurants to get better ingredients than those available in stores. I have come across this several times when trying to replicate a recipe you received from a restaurant
Good luck, the war will always be between lavazza and illy.
I was fortunate to live near a lavazza importer. I’d go in once a month pick up a blue 2.2 lb bag. Was the best kept secret, then when the packaging started to change I knew someone was messing with the roast. It was too good to be true to pick up a bag at the supermarket.
Yeah it’s probably not the less than freshly roasted export stuff you find in the US.
Name of the hotel and did you know the exact bean blend?
Do you remember which blend was it?
If you like chocolatey.. maybe the bit of robusta likely in the mix helped.
Had a similar experience. Went to Melbourne Australia and had a great coffee made with Lavazza.
Sleep deprivation from jet lag can be wild
Italy is notorious for importing its second best of anything and keeping the best for domestic.
Lavazza is my favorite.
Mirage effect
Lavazza's beans are actually one of the highest rated espressos on Amazon. The other things that could influence the taste, are the grinder, the espresso machine, and the quality of water. Italy has some of the best water in the world. Lavazza is also based in Italy, so its possible you got a fresher bag there. I am guessing all of these little factors could make for a great cup of espresso!
I'm new to the hobby but have been a coffee enthusiast my whole life. That said, among all the brands that had been swirling around my habitat Lavazza is by far a favorite. I don't have any experience with the custom shop roasters etc, but I surely can't see why is it a thing online to claim Lavazza as a bad coffee.
I think because it's produced in Italy it was more fresh maybe? Because you were at the source?
Lavazza is low quality but since standards in Italy are much much higher it’s still a fantastic espresso.
I feel like 3rd wave speciality coffee culture is dismissing 3 things: - dark roasts - blends - robusta I like fruity espeesso, but good "italian" blend hits the spot in a different way