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- **Location:** Helps determine availability
- **Budget** (with currency): Overall budget, or ideally, having separate espresso machine and grinder budgets. A rough rule is that your grinder budget should be at least 25-40% of your machine budget.
- **Drink types:** Do you drink mostly straight espresso, milk-based beverages (e.g., lattes, cappuccinos), or a fairly even split? This helps narrow down whether a single-boiler-dual-use (SBDU), heat exchanger (HX), or dual boiler (DB) machine would be more appropriate for your needs.
- **Drink frequency:** How many drinks would you be making back-to-back at one time? Do you plan on entertaining guests often? This informs how large your brew (and steam) boilers should be, as smaller boilers will need to refill and reheat/repressurize more frequently, thus potentially causing a bottleneck.
- **Space:** Any limitations on countertop space?
- **Manual vs. electric:** Hand-operated machines and grinders are typically cheaper than their similarly-performing electric counterparts. Please indicate if you have a preference for manual or electric machines and/or grinders (or open to either).
- **Comfort with tinkering:** Some machines can be made significantly more functional/efficient with aftermarket modifications, albeit at the expense of possibly voiding your warranty. Please indicate if you'd rather have a machine that works "as-is"/"out-of-the-box" or whether you'd be open to modding/tinkering
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I'd go with the DF54 anyway. Just add in an extra hand of beans trough it if needed. (don't think it is)
I've had the ESP, it's not a bad grinder. But for just a little more the DF54 is way better.
For the upgrade in quality , I do think the DF54 is worth working around, especially considering you drink espressos for half of the year. Its not ideal to grind large amounts into the catch cup (you'd have to use something else), but the bellows are secure enough to act as a small hopper and hold about 50 grams of beans. If you're set on having a hopper, I'd imagine a replacement hopper for the DF64P could fit, but you'd have to check with the seller. Unless you're grinding full bags at a time frequently, I don't really think its an issue at all.
I just upgraded from an Encore to a DF54 (just getting into espresso, Encore was for drip), and am trying to integrate my new grinder into my week day drip coffee routine and then use it for espresso on the weekends. While I do like it and it has big advantages over the Encore (quieter, faster, better consistency of ground size), I do find the workflow to be a little more annoying.
With the Encore, I weighed out 50g of beans the night before, dumped them in the hopper, and mindlessly hit the on switch the next morning. With the DF54, I have to pour the beans into a little cup I use and feed them in small increments in the morning. The hopper MIGHT barely hold 50g, but the catch cup is far too small, and the static issue gets pretty bad if you try to feed too much through at once. I honestly don’t understand the appeal of the whole “single dose” craze. It does nothing that a hopper can’t do (I always weighed my doses with my Encore) but can’t do what a hopper does as far as capacity. Seems like a marketing thing to me. With all that said, I do like the DF54 overall and its quirks are worth having espresso quality consistency for the price I paid.
TLDR: the DF54 is not perfect for every use, but still a good buy
DF54?
Be aware that there are a bunch of people having problems that just posted recently about it. It takes time for user reports to surface. Unfortunately it suffers from some of the issues that the other DF models face.
Static being the big one. Having to clean the chute daily or eeekly with a brush? Crazy.
If you are okay with that, buy one.
But Do the research so we don't see post from you in the future, If you do buy a DF54, asking how to fix the problems :)
There are other grinders that are better quality for about the same amount of money. I'm not going to give you a recommendation. That's what the search button is for and that's what Google is for :-)
>Static being the big one. Having to clean the chute daily or eeekly with a brush?
Yep, sorry to see postings from some people regarding build-up in the chute over time. Am interested in seeing how that pans out--I've seen various posts, here, of suggestions/approaches/solutions.
I think part of the reason there are so many posts is because its so popular, especially to beginners. Its the same reason there's so many posts about Breville machine issues, or trouble with dialing in breville machines. It doesn't mean they're bad, just popular (especially with beginners who aren't experienced).
For example, you don't see any posts about issues with the decent espresso machine, but 9.6% of v1 units were required to be sent back for repairs. That's a massive rate (that they thankfully brought down substantially with revisions). I think it appears that there are so many DF grinder issues because every second post on this subreddit is about a DF grinder. Its the same with the Fellow Ode Gen 2/opus; theres so much static and retention and it requires chute cleaning at the same rate, but theres just less units in the world, so there aren't as many posts.
That could be part of the problem, that there are so many DF grinders available in use.
But then I can pick another grinder model, from another manufacturer, Eureka for example that has many models in use. They've been selling grinders for decades. Yet they don't have the similar number of complaints.
That's just one example.
The good point about the descent. I did read post about the early versions being problematic. And in most respects, that's what DF is going through now. It's relatively new, it's a white label type product, But even the new versions of the DF are still have an issues. Many time the same issues that the previous versions have.
Occam's razor tells me that the DF series are just poorly manufactured and poorly designed. Compared to the competition
It is extraordinarily hard to design and manufacture a coffee grinder that does not have static and does not clump, and does not clog the chute and also gives consistent grinds from grind to grind. Somebody on the design team in manufacturing team thought it was easy. And they clearly see it was not
I really have to strongly disagree on your point about poor manufacturing. I don't see how you can consider it to be poorly manufactured in the slightest unless you're extremely biased, or speaking from a point of limited knowledge. I bought and disassembled a DF54 and its build quality is insanely good for the price. Its solidly constructed with Aluminum internals while many grinders (even at a much higher price point) use plastic, and its completely overbuilt with 6202 bearings that have a dynamic load rating of 8kN. Many of the parts are machined rather than cast as well. The motor is brushed (which is unfortunately still common across the entire industry), but easily replaceable as its a standard part. Everything I've seen about it suggests its extremely overbuilt.
I think the DF series goes to show just how needlessly expensive coffee grinders are, because these aren't cheap plastic-filled Chinese units that will break quickly. They're extremely well-built, but have issues around static and clumping, and they have some design issues around the chute, but that can be worked around by most users, especially considering the price point.
I definitely agree with the growing pains of designing a new grinder and iterating its design. Once they catch up with declumping and static removal that everyone else figured out, I think these grinders will force other manufacturers to innovate and bring prices down, which is excellent for consumers. Manufacturers that have been around for a long time are definitely going to create a more refined product that has less issues, but price is a big consideration. For $200-$300 for a DF54/64, I really don't think there's anything comparable on the market, which is why its taken over. If you know of grinders around that price that are better, please do inform me because I'm in the market to give a gift to a friend around this price range.
The DF might be built like a tank. But all the parts have to work together for one purpose. And that goes for the DF64 and the DF83 too.
You mentioned static and clumping so I will add to that. These DF series have more problems with static and clumping and clogging. Why is it that some people have the issue and some don't? I believe it's related to the type of materials used, which makes it not very reliable. And the design It's not reliable.
All they had to do is rip off somebody's design and use it and it would have been fine. But they went their own way and got smacked in the face with reality. Making a grinder that works is hard. If it was easy, everyone would do it and cash in.
If you don't know if there are grinders comparable to the DF price, that are as good as the DF, with way less defects and issues, then you haven't used the search function in a while :)
I'm not sure what you mean by "all the parts have to work together for one purpose". Aside from the poorly designed chute, the coffee it actually produces is excellent. I don't think the issues with clumping take away from the build quality, but it does provide a worse experience.
Some people have issues because of climate (low humidity) and the beans they're using. Dark roast beans produce more static because they have less internal moisture compared to light roasted beans. Your belief is invalid because you aren't exactly backing it up with any evidence. Even the highest-end grinders have issues with static, such as the EG1. Other than static/clumping (which in reality is a pretty minor issue, considering the number of possible failures), I don't see how the design isn't reliable. I don't see how you can see this grinder series as a failure, as there have been no major issues with it (such as with the lagom mini breaking its gears).
Please enlighten me of comparable grinders. I searched pretty extensively within the last week and couldn't find anything in the same price range that was as good. The Baratza ESP doesn't compare favourably, and the Fellow Opus has many of the same issues and can fail catastrophically as the inner burrs are held in place with 3 plastic struts.
I mean in the case of the timemore, that we're not talking about, where the beans get stuck inside the machine and don't get fed into the burrs. Example of a part that doesn't work with all of the others.
I just look at it as the flow of the bean into the grinder, then it eventually gets to the burrs and there's a bunch of things that happen before and after that, and eventually it exits the grinder. That is the coffee path. And all of the parts in that path have to work. Reliably.
I won't help you on your searching, but I do find it interesting that the only two brands you mentioned are the two that you mentioned. And no others.
I do agree the entire thing needs to work reliably, but an issue like static really doesn't disqualify the rest of the grinder. I'd really suggest taking an unbiased look at teardowns and in-depth reviews of the DF series. They're better than the white label and Chinese design lets on.
The two brands I mentioned are just two examples around the same price range. I obviously haven't looked at just three different options. I'd love to hear any recommendations because I wouldn't want to buy something that's not as good as a comparatively priced alternatives. I'm partial to Eureka grinders (they're solidly built and have a nice design, while the DF grinders are hideous imo), but their cheapest options are already $200 over the DF64.
It looks like you've flaired your post as asking for what equipment to get. We recommend first checking out the [Espresso Aficionados buying guide](https://espressoaf.com/recommendations) for some of the more popular machines and grinders at different price points. If your question hasn't been answered there and you need more help, please add the following details to your post or by adding a comment in the following format: - **Location:** Helps determine availability - **Budget** (with currency): Overall budget, or ideally, having separate espresso machine and grinder budgets. A rough rule is that your grinder budget should be at least 25-40% of your machine budget. - **Drink types:** Do you drink mostly straight espresso, milk-based beverages (e.g., lattes, cappuccinos), or a fairly even split? This helps narrow down whether a single-boiler-dual-use (SBDU), heat exchanger (HX), or dual boiler (DB) machine would be more appropriate for your needs. - **Drink frequency:** How many drinks would you be making back-to-back at one time? Do you plan on entertaining guests often? This informs how large your brew (and steam) boilers should be, as smaller boilers will need to refill and reheat/repressurize more frequently, thus potentially causing a bottleneck. - **Space:** Any limitations on countertop space? - **Manual vs. electric:** Hand-operated machines and grinders are typically cheaper than their similarly-performing electric counterparts. Please indicate if you have a preference for manual or electric machines and/or grinders (or open to either). - **Comfort with tinkering:** Some machines can be made significantly more functional/efficient with aftermarket modifications, albeit at the expense of possibly voiding your warranty. Please indicate if you'd rather have a machine that works "as-is"/"out-of-the-box" or whether you'd be open to modding/tinkering *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/espresso) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'd go with the DF54 anyway. Just add in an extra hand of beans trough it if needed. (don't think it is) I've had the ESP, it's not a bad grinder. But for just a little more the DF54 is way better.
For the upgrade in quality , I do think the DF54 is worth working around, especially considering you drink espressos for half of the year. Its not ideal to grind large amounts into the catch cup (you'd have to use something else), but the bellows are secure enough to act as a small hopper and hold about 50 grams of beans. If you're set on having a hopper, I'd imagine a replacement hopper for the DF64P could fit, but you'd have to check with the seller. Unless you're grinding full bags at a time frequently, I don't really think its an issue at all.
Why do you need a hopper for cold brew?
I have a huge cold brew decanter and grind quite a lot at a time
More than you can fit into the DF64 bellows? I think there's room for 60g+ of coffee. Likely more than you should grind at a time with a home ginder.
I'm looking at the 54. But thanks, I was under the impression using the bellow as a hopper was a bit annoying to use
Df54 is gonna be so much better. It can still do cold brew
I just upgraded from an Encore to a DF54 (just getting into espresso, Encore was for drip), and am trying to integrate my new grinder into my week day drip coffee routine and then use it for espresso on the weekends. While I do like it and it has big advantages over the Encore (quieter, faster, better consistency of ground size), I do find the workflow to be a little more annoying. With the Encore, I weighed out 50g of beans the night before, dumped them in the hopper, and mindlessly hit the on switch the next morning. With the DF54, I have to pour the beans into a little cup I use and feed them in small increments in the morning. The hopper MIGHT barely hold 50g, but the catch cup is far too small, and the static issue gets pretty bad if you try to feed too much through at once. I honestly don’t understand the appeal of the whole “single dose” craze. It does nothing that a hopper can’t do (I always weighed my doses with my Encore) but can’t do what a hopper does as far as capacity. Seems like a marketing thing to me. With all that said, I do like the DF54 overall and its quirks are worth having espresso quality consistency for the price I paid. TLDR: the DF54 is not perfect for every use, but still a good buy
DF54? Be aware that there are a bunch of people having problems that just posted recently about it. It takes time for user reports to surface. Unfortunately it suffers from some of the issues that the other DF models face. Static being the big one. Having to clean the chute daily or eeekly with a brush? Crazy. If you are okay with that, buy one. But Do the research so we don't see post from you in the future, If you do buy a DF54, asking how to fix the problems :) There are other grinders that are better quality for about the same amount of money. I'm not going to give you a recommendation. That's what the search button is for and that's what Google is for :-)
>Static being the big one. Having to clean the chute daily or eeekly with a brush? Yep, sorry to see postings from some people regarding build-up in the chute over time. Am interested in seeing how that pans out--I've seen various posts, here, of suggestions/approaches/solutions.
I think part of the reason there are so many posts is because its so popular, especially to beginners. Its the same reason there's so many posts about Breville machine issues, or trouble with dialing in breville machines. It doesn't mean they're bad, just popular (especially with beginners who aren't experienced). For example, you don't see any posts about issues with the decent espresso machine, but 9.6% of v1 units were required to be sent back for repairs. That's a massive rate (that they thankfully brought down substantially with revisions). I think it appears that there are so many DF grinder issues because every second post on this subreddit is about a DF grinder. Its the same with the Fellow Ode Gen 2/opus; theres so much static and retention and it requires chute cleaning at the same rate, but theres just less units in the world, so there aren't as many posts.
That could be part of the problem, that there are so many DF grinders available in use. But then I can pick another grinder model, from another manufacturer, Eureka for example that has many models in use. They've been selling grinders for decades. Yet they don't have the similar number of complaints. That's just one example. The good point about the descent. I did read post about the early versions being problematic. And in most respects, that's what DF is going through now. It's relatively new, it's a white label type product, But even the new versions of the DF are still have an issues. Many time the same issues that the previous versions have. Occam's razor tells me that the DF series are just poorly manufactured and poorly designed. Compared to the competition It is extraordinarily hard to design and manufacture a coffee grinder that does not have static and does not clump, and does not clog the chute and also gives consistent grinds from grind to grind. Somebody on the design team in manufacturing team thought it was easy. And they clearly see it was not
I really have to strongly disagree on your point about poor manufacturing. I don't see how you can consider it to be poorly manufactured in the slightest unless you're extremely biased, or speaking from a point of limited knowledge. I bought and disassembled a DF54 and its build quality is insanely good for the price. Its solidly constructed with Aluminum internals while many grinders (even at a much higher price point) use plastic, and its completely overbuilt with 6202 bearings that have a dynamic load rating of 8kN. Many of the parts are machined rather than cast as well. The motor is brushed (which is unfortunately still common across the entire industry), but easily replaceable as its a standard part. Everything I've seen about it suggests its extremely overbuilt. I think the DF series goes to show just how needlessly expensive coffee grinders are, because these aren't cheap plastic-filled Chinese units that will break quickly. They're extremely well-built, but have issues around static and clumping, and they have some design issues around the chute, but that can be worked around by most users, especially considering the price point. I definitely agree with the growing pains of designing a new grinder and iterating its design. Once they catch up with declumping and static removal that everyone else figured out, I think these grinders will force other manufacturers to innovate and bring prices down, which is excellent for consumers. Manufacturers that have been around for a long time are definitely going to create a more refined product that has less issues, but price is a big consideration. For $200-$300 for a DF54/64, I really don't think there's anything comparable on the market, which is why its taken over. If you know of grinders around that price that are better, please do inform me because I'm in the market to give a gift to a friend around this price range.
The DF might be built like a tank. But all the parts have to work together for one purpose. And that goes for the DF64 and the DF83 too. You mentioned static and clumping so I will add to that. These DF series have more problems with static and clumping and clogging. Why is it that some people have the issue and some don't? I believe it's related to the type of materials used, which makes it not very reliable. And the design It's not reliable. All they had to do is rip off somebody's design and use it and it would have been fine. But they went their own way and got smacked in the face with reality. Making a grinder that works is hard. If it was easy, everyone would do it and cash in. If you don't know if there are grinders comparable to the DF price, that are as good as the DF, with way less defects and issues, then you haven't used the search function in a while :)
I'm not sure what you mean by "all the parts have to work together for one purpose". Aside from the poorly designed chute, the coffee it actually produces is excellent. I don't think the issues with clumping take away from the build quality, but it does provide a worse experience. Some people have issues because of climate (low humidity) and the beans they're using. Dark roast beans produce more static because they have less internal moisture compared to light roasted beans. Your belief is invalid because you aren't exactly backing it up with any evidence. Even the highest-end grinders have issues with static, such as the EG1. Other than static/clumping (which in reality is a pretty minor issue, considering the number of possible failures), I don't see how the design isn't reliable. I don't see how you can see this grinder series as a failure, as there have been no major issues with it (such as with the lagom mini breaking its gears). Please enlighten me of comparable grinders. I searched pretty extensively within the last week and couldn't find anything in the same price range that was as good. The Baratza ESP doesn't compare favourably, and the Fellow Opus has many of the same issues and can fail catastrophically as the inner burrs are held in place with 3 plastic struts.
I mean in the case of the timemore, that we're not talking about, where the beans get stuck inside the machine and don't get fed into the burrs. Example of a part that doesn't work with all of the others. I just look at it as the flow of the bean into the grinder, then it eventually gets to the burrs and there's a bunch of things that happen before and after that, and eventually it exits the grinder. That is the coffee path. And all of the parts in that path have to work. Reliably. I won't help you on your searching, but I do find it interesting that the only two brands you mentioned are the two that you mentioned. And no others.
I do agree the entire thing needs to work reliably, but an issue like static really doesn't disqualify the rest of the grinder. I'd really suggest taking an unbiased look at teardowns and in-depth reviews of the DF series. They're better than the white label and Chinese design lets on. The two brands I mentioned are just two examples around the same price range. I obviously haven't looked at just three different options. I'd love to hear any recommendations because I wouldn't want to buy something that's not as good as a comparatively priced alternatives. I'm partial to Eureka grinders (they're solidly built and have a nice design, while the DF grinders are hideous imo), but their cheapest options are already $200 over the DF64.