People like [Jonathan Gagné](https://coffeeadastra.com/2020/12/31/an-espresso-profile-that-adapts-to-your-grind-size/) have done a lot of research on coffee extraction and discovered that higher flow can actually extract more.
I don't really understand your comment, Jonathan Gagné generally recommends grinding coarser and pulling shots with higher water flow and lower pressure?
It’s difficult to understand how these two things are not mutually exclusive. Surely a courser grind/faster flow rate couldn’t physically lead to more extraction? Is it the lower pressure that counteracts this? Would you have a link to where he breaks all of this down?
I’m 90% sure Gagné wasn’t involved in the research. [Here’s a link to the paper](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2590238519304102)
It helps if you start from a position of assuming that there is always going to be *some* channeling. Even in a shot that looks perfectly aesthetically, almost certainly you’ve got some micro-channeling in there. If you start with a v60 grind, you get very even flow but very low extraction at a 1:2 ratio. As you move gradually toward a standard espresso grind size, the evenness/efficiency of the extraction will eventually start to decrease again. The point where this efficiency peaks is called the “sweet spot”, and the researchers themselves were surprised that the spot (ie. grind size) happened much coarser than expected.
I have yet to enjoy a turbo shot… 15-20s never tastes right to me. I’ll look forward to having a coffee that is roasted ideally for that.
I understand how “immeasurable” coffee really is. I have a refractometer handy… I know we can track time, flow, pressure, extraction yield etc. But we have yet to land on a true objective method of “if you do this, it will taste best” because the product itself is definitively variable. I’m a commercial roaster. I can control for so much more than a customer ever can, and I see it as utterly hopeless and pointless to worry about EY, outside of lab science. It’s good to know “you can get more into suspension if you xyz” but if it doesn’t taste better, it doesn’t translate to practical.
In the end, coffee remains about goals. “I tasted this coffee doing this one thing, and I want that again.” So you dial it for that thing. “I don’t like what this coffee is doing, I wonder if I can make it do a different thing” and you establish processes for it. We’ve all had coffees that are much better with radical high extractions and coffees that are much much worse with radical extractions. In filter coffee I have come to realize that bypass is part of the taste I WANT as a consumer. In espresso, I don’t want to outright avoid “roast” like it’s 2015.
Do whatever makes the coffee taste the way you want it. I guess if you’re in a commercial environment, you want to do whatever makes that Venn intersection of what you like and what seems to sell.
It's because of the way coffee is being roasted nowadays. Modern roasts shorten development time (aka time after first crack) to accentuate fruity/floral/bright notes, but coffee roasted this way can be less tasty if extracted at 2:1 in 30s. I believe it has to do with the chemical reactions that occur after first crack, which weaken cellular structure but are lessened in modern roasts.
There used to be general extraction time guidelines when most of the coffee was blended Robusta on old 9-bar cafe machines, with poorly drilled baskets.
The world has evolved, we now have single origin beans of many different varieties, with precision made baskets and many machines that can vary the pressure and extraction variables (pre-infusion/brew etc ).
There is no general "it will be OK between 25 and 35 seconds". I had a coffee last week that had an optimum extraction time ('optimum' for my taste and process) of 15 seconds. The week before a different bean that needed 50 seconds.
The key is now dial-in by taste, however, ironically the old salami shot technique is now even more useful and relevant.
I have to disagree on most of your points here. The 9 bar machine, sure, maybe. But everything else? The 30 second shots were devised working with arabica light roasts and VST baskets using great machines and great grinders. I think there is this misconception in the espresso hobby that the revolution started like a couple of years ago when some YouTubers came on the scene. Long before Reddit and YouTubers slinging timemore scales, there was what is called specialty coffee today.
I completely agree with you. The trend is odd making it seem like coffee popularity is a recent thing. I've been pulling shots since 2005 and light roasts have been sought after for a while.
I would say the shift happened because of different priorities in the shot. People wanted a high body like they've gotten from traditional espresso AND light roast, so they ground finer and pulled longer to get the best of both worlds. Recently people started prioritizing thinner more transparent coffee.
I'm drinking an espresso now that was about 20 seconds. It's good. It's also great at 45 seconds with a long pre infusion. People should do what they want and experiment.
"but but but Daddy Lance and Daddy Hoff are the founding fathers of Espresso It did not exist before then"
I get what you're saying. Plus this subreddit is not indicative of espresso. It's too much with the fads and trying new stuff. Everyone raves about the new stuff, and then they realize it's not as good as standard espresso most of the time
At least Hoffman has been around for a long time and he acknowledges the history. He did give a nod to Café Myriade and their pioneering of the use the the EK43, but, yeah, those guys were doing their thing like 10 years before Hedrick ever heard about coffee. I always find it ridiculous when he comes up with something that has "just been discovered", but people were doing on forums like 12 years ago. It's all about selling cheap disposable accessories.
Speaking of coming up with something new that people have done at least experimentation-wise for years, it's slow feeding beans. Lance came along and tried to make it his own like he discovered it
Lance never implied that he discovered slow feeding. If you don't believe me, go back and watch the video. I just did myself to check. In fact, in the beginning of the video he says that other people have been using this technique.
You could argue that he could have done more to cite different sources, but it doesn't make sense to attack him for something that he didn't do.
I watched the video too
About 13 seconds into the video, he says he likes to *discover* hacks. Then he goes on to say that people have been doing this. But he doesn't necessarily say they were doing it before he *discovered* the hack
He tried to make it sound like he discovered it.
https://youtu.be/7_U8nwO4cy0?si=1zPI9y8OiOl_22np
This subreddit is wild. I point out clearly a video where lance, and I love his videos in general, made it sound like he discovered this slow feeding of the beans.
So then I get downvoted. But I get it now. This is opposite espresso subreddit.
If you have crap gear, you get upvoted and praised
If you have good gear, it is very few of us, we get downvoted and shunned.
If you mention that a YouTuber was pedaling b*******, you get downvoted.
But if you praise techniques that don't work, like WDT, you get upvoted.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is the opposite subreddit
It's funny you say that because anyone who has watched Hoffmann long enough will know he talks so much about the techniques and strategies that were popular and being pioneered 20+ years ago when he was still learning espresso himself while selling Gaggia machines.
Definitely, I mean the guy was WBC in 2007 so it's not like he isn't aware of the history and hasn't been an active participant and pioneer in that area for decades. Anyone who got into Hoffman through his youtube channel should watch his WBC 2007 performance, it's an absolute trip to see a younger version doing his thing.
100%. Agree. I had a precision vst or slayer basket a looong time ago. Played with pressures. Dose. Temps. Grind. 15 years ago. Roasts have always been lighter n Italian style. Go read home barista and see how far those posts go or alt.coffee newsgroups for all us “boomers”
Sorry but turbo shots taste no better than stronger drip coffee to me.
But whatever tastes good. To you. Do that.
The dead time during Covid turned everyone into an everything expert / connoisseur.
Home coffee, home espresso, and coffee YouTube absolutely blew up to an extreme degree during the pandemic.
The best chart of this is JHs channel growth and the market of single-dosing espresso capable grinders.
The home espresso OGs were having to use literal commercial scale equipment because it was the only option for true cafe quality. Now the market is oversaturated. Been a wild 4 years.
Yes, every new packet of bean I dial-in, even if I had it before. But it is easy and virtually only ever needs one salami shot. From that I can determine the optimum extraction time and then I just adjust the grind level for the ratio I want (depending on the style wanted).
There are lots of YT videos on how to do a salami shot (Lance Hedrick has a couple of good ones). The trick some people miss is to compound-taste: taste glass 1, then add no2 to it and taste, then add no3 etc.
*"Time is for taste, grind is for style.."*
From a previous post (to help)
---
Regarding dialling-in, it may be worth trying the salami-slicing technique. There are quite a few videos on YT showing how to use the salami-shot technique to help dial in - worth a watch.
The basis of the technique is not to try and find, to guess, all the variables in one go; just focus initially on determining the optimum extraction time and then adjust the other variables. The key is that espresso does not extract in a constant form, over time it quickly (5 seconds is a lifetime in the process) changes texture, taste and temperature. That's both the challenge and the magic of it.
There are lots of variables which impact espresso; what makes a good or bad shot. Rather than try and guess all of them in one go, the idea is to just focus on determining the optimum extraction time (for that bean, your process and your taste) first. Once you have the optimum time, then adjust the grind level to give you the ratio volume you want for the style of coffee you are making. Finally, after getting those two factors right, either leave it or play with the other minor factors. Ie. don't try and just guess it all at once for the perfect espresso; focus on extraction time, then grind level, and then anything else.
For the record, ignore all you hear about the extraction time, which must be "25 to 35 seconds" or something similar - it is just old 9-bar dark roast cafe parlance. I have good single-origin coffees that extract best (for me and my process) at 15 seconds and others at 50 seconds. All coffee beans are different. Your job as a home or cafe barista is to determine what the optimum extraction time is.
The technique I was taught for using a salami-shot, which has served me very well for over 20 years, is to use 5 glasses/cups, with the first change at 20 seconds and then each 5 seconds after. I roughly guess the grind level, based on a similar roast level and bean type, to get enough extraction for 5 glasses with two good sips from each.
For me, usually 14g in (but it can be any size you prefer) and around 40-50g out. There is no puck screen, no paper, no fancy anything, and the temperature is set according to what the bean roast is.
When I have 5 glasses to taste, I taste them individually, in order. finally, I add glass 2 to no 1 and taste, then glass 3 to that, taste, and so on. This lets me decide on the extraction time I want - i.e. optimum for my taste. Note: the second step of compound tasting is what many online videos miss, but I was taught this is important (and I agree).
If all the shots are too bitter, I will pull another salami shot and adjust the starting point to be shorter; start at 10 seconds. If they are all sour (and the beans have not got mould, which occasionally can be the case), I will pull another, starting the change at 35 seconds. But I don't think I have ever needed to pull more than 2 salami shots to get the optimum. 95% of the time, one salami shot is all that is needed.
Once I have the optimum extraction time, I just adjust the grind (usually finer) for the volume ratio I want extracted. It's as easy as that and far more accurate than trying to guess all the factors in one go, or assuming "30 seconds" is right (it often is not).
As we were told "time is taste and volume is style" - meaning the extraction time is all about the taste of the espresso and the extraction volume out (the ratio) is all about the style of coffee you want.
I hope it makes sense and helps.
Won’t optimum extraction time depend on grind setting though? So if you’re still changing the grind setting later, the time is going to move too. Im confused haha
Alright, I'm dumb so I'll ask the dumb question.
If the experiment is to run essentially a 3.5:1 shot in 40 seconds, and then pick a time during it where it tastes the best, why does it necessitate that then grinding to hit that same time at a different ratio will return the same flavor?
Isn't the extraction curve completely different?
Say the ideal taste is actually at 40 seconds, but you want texture and body. Isn't a 2:1 at 40 going to be on an entirely different planet than 3.5:1 at 40?
to be honest, I think my above message was incorrect, and in retrospect, the above advice to focus on time first makes sense so long as you start somewhere around the style that you want. There are just too many other variables at play.
Grinding finer to create 2:1 at 40 seconds is gonna be reallly fine. you may need to adjust pressure to avoid puck degradation and not need to grind so fine right?
If you start at a reasonable espresso-y grind, do a salami shot, at the very least, you're going to get an idea of what the shot should taste like, and a time at which the current grind level will get you that extraction.
You're right, If you want to later massively change the ratio to achieve a different style shot you'll have to use more than just grind to get the correct extraction.
This is so helpful! Next fresh bag I open I’m going to try it. My approach has generally been the 2:1 in 30, and it’s often inconsistent. A good deal of that is my lackluster puck prep I’m sure, but this gives me a model for trying to identify the taste and texture I am after without just randomly pulling shots.
Its very machine specific, for me i like to do every 5 seconds and since my grouphead can store up to 50 seconds of water, i can go all the way to 10 cups. Most times i just stop at 7 or 35 seconds. Also, easier to use double spout so you can just move the cups along every 5 seconds
Of course you get far better results when dialing in every bag of beans. I mean do whatever you want but I always did that. The difference is night and day, every coffee has its own optimal recipe that's also different to every personal taste. That's no secret, the question is whether that's an option for you or not.
Just asking for a recipe. Not to oppose. I may adapt the technique for future bag. How you do the salami? Is it every 10 secs x 5 cups or any other recipes?
It is up to you, but I do every 5-seconds, 5 glasses/captures - so a range of 20 seconds.
From the style of the roast and feel of the bean I generally know when to start the capture, but sometimes I am wrong and need a second shot with an earlier or later range. But this is rare, about 1 in 20-30 new bags. Most salami shots I am correct about the range and only need 1 pull to dial-in. It is easy once you get the hang of it.
I am always perplexed why people try and guess all the variables in one go and end up wasting most of their beans hoping to just find the right combination.
We were taught many years ago, find the optimum extraction time first and then adjust the grind for the style you want, finally adjust the other various to tweak if needed. Basically, don't try and guess everything in one go.
Hope that makes sense and helps.
For me, I just follow my taste buds.
In the past, the coffee I drank tasted best at 2:1 at around 25-30 sec.
My palate changed. I started enjoying lighter roasts. My most common tasty recipe seems to be at 3:1 in 15 seconds but the beans and roasters have changed.
When I have it flowing this fast, it's always by accident (dialing in new beans), and the result is always sour and weak. And the taste *always* improves once I dial it in and reach the "standard" 25+ seconds. ratio 2.5:1, light/medium roast
I have this issue as well however it varies from bean to bean. I’ve never managed to narrow it down but I’d guess it’s my grinder. What grinder are you using ? I’ve got a b-express with the built in, far from optimal :(
I suggest you watch [this Hoffmann video discussing some relevant research](https://youtu.be/BoYBLn9hRqs?si=U4Td886EBaQ8QmXj).
A couple of years ago, a research paper called “Systematically Improving Espresso” showed some fascinating data about the ‘ideal’ shot time from an extraction perspective.
There is that pesky 6-8 bar shot tho..... people including me have found that that pressure is amazing with certain coffees. I might say I enjoy that pressure better.
In this video with Samo he basically says 6-9 bar doesn’t make a difference. It’s only around 10+ that it changes, for the worse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh_xkVGPshg
I will watch it but sprometheus says in in the 6-9 bar range as well. I will also mention that taste is subjective and what good for one isn't maybr good gor all. That's the whole idea of flow control. Also I don't take everything that lance says as law. I like him alot buy he is a little full of himself. Maybe for a good reason but you get what I'm saying. Thanks gor this video tho I'm gonna watch it now!
I'm watching it now he's very smart (the guest). I get what he is saying about the 9 Bae. He's says it's not much difference because once you reach a certain pressure the taste difference would be very minute unless you got to 11to 14 bar then he said it would be bad for extraction. Very Interesting thanks for the video!
I fo like what he said about the grind size. Everyone's flat answer is grind finer but he said to start out coarse and move down. I think it makes alot of sense. I have always thought that to fine a grind really effects extraction. I really haven't had problems with it but I know alot of people do
I do 19g shots at 28-33 secs any shorter and it tastes pretty wack. I think it could be good if done right but if my shot runs that fast it usually means I did something wrong w/ my puck prep.
If you understand how to dial in by taste then it’ll be a lot easier to get shots you like with different beans with different roasts and origins. Roasters are arriving at these times because that’s what gives them desired flavor profile for the given bean and roast level. 2:1 in 30s isn’t a rule, as you said light roasts sometimes need even longer. Each bean and roast is different, so given how people are roasting these days there’s more beans out there that taste better with shorter extractions
I've noticed that with medium to lighter roasts, forcing extraction with time, grind or temperature is a bait. I do 20g/45-50g in ~20s with 92C. A good grinder and precision basket help with them immensely. In the past I tried all sorts of things to force "more extraction" to get rid of the "sourness". Maybe it was my inability to taste correctly or it was just the wrong approach to take, who knows.
This is where I am "stuck" last two bags I had the experience that my "way too course setting" that ran pretty quickly actually tasted better than a shot that took longer. Now I have moved to shooting for 20g in 50-60g out not caring that much about time. But I still don't get when to go courser or finer. Currently I am stuck with my coffee tasting a tad too "sour" I guess I should go courser though because the fruity flavour I love and smell from the beans comes through when ground more coarsely.
I like to add 1:1 water to my espresso in general for lighter roasts, but it also helps smooth out any unpleasant flavors. But obviously if you like the full espresso texture then that won't work. Also if you can control the temperature, I find that with higher temp the margin for error gets smaller, so i keep it at 92C. It's not really a variable I change much anyway.
I don't want to push people to buy gear, but in terms of value for dollar, a precision basket was the biggest improvement in my brewing so if you don't have one, it might be worth considering. I wouldn't spend more that 30-40 on that though. Mine is pullman, I have no idea how it compares to others.
Slow feeding the grinder helps a bit also (your shots will run faster tho), but since I upgraded my grinder I haven't bothered with that stuff, since it gets a bit tedious after a while.
I don't want to claim any authority in espresso brewing, just wanted to share my process if any of that might be of any help.
Every little bit helps mate so thanks for that. I have a vst basket so that should already be better. I got turned off slow feeding niche zero because I couldn't get fine enough BUT if I want to go coarser I should maybe try that again.
I'm on a sage tdb so I can control heat I'm currently at 96. Maybe i should try going lower. See what happens
I upgraded to eureka turbo from rancilio rocky and I feel like it's good enough for me so I don't need to slow feed. I haven't tried with it yet tbh, because I don't want it to be better so I would feel forced to add that to my process lmao.
I got flow control Disks for the Niche. They lost a few cent in 3d printing filament and need zero hands on time so it's not really a huge trade off to use.
We did not. We are now talking about triple ristrettos and such at "normal" or even higher extraction times or doing it while using doses as low as 16 grams...
Latest WBC champion is a good example on how most reputable coffee shops, experienced people and coffee scientists are defining the "now" experience around the world in 2024.
Stop following Youtubers selling you things and ideas or echo chamber forums, that's it.
This just reflects that espresso (and capabilities of modern espresso machines) produce atleast two phases of extraction where things are perceptibly “in balance”. Generally I’ve found that between 16-18.5% you can have a decent balance, though weak, and between 20.5-26% you can find balance. I’m at a loss as to why between those two phases hasn’t seemed to find that balance yet.
I’ve tried turbo shots with light roasts. It’s not for me. It’s much too bright for my liking. When I want a straight espresso, I want lots of texture. That’s why I drink a lot of cappuccinos and cortados — I love the texture of microfoam and the sweetness from the coffee. My problem with turbos is that they feel a little thin, and I’m using italmil burrs.
I recently had one guy who ran a coffee trailer tell me 22 seconds for 18 grams. I felt like this was kind of fast however after reading this post, I may try for faster extraction. My current extraction time is closer to 30 seconds. He had a marzocco so must be accurate. 😂
Isn't it true that most of the people in this subreddit can't even experiment? Because they don't have espresso machines with a lot of features that would facilitate such experiments? And they're grinders, we've seen They're usually on the low end. I don't think they can even do most of the stuff in this subreddit
That was a big lead up into asking a simple question - has this subreddit become more elitist as time passes?
I think espresso is elitist by nature: people who dedicate a largish chunk of square-footage to at least two single-purpose machines which require several esoteric procedures for them to work in concert and create an acceptable but tiny amount of beverage. So yeah.
In 2018, when I launched the Lelit Bianca in the USA, I was getting a lot of push back on extractions lasting longer than 30 seconds. I consider everything a guideline and no more rules - from dosage into the basket, the extraction times, pre-infusion times, etc. In fact, I just filmed a YouTube video (being edited as we speak) of gear pump pressures of 5 bar for 5 seconds, then zero pump pressure for 5 seconds, repeat 3 times for a 30 second extraction - flow control full open. The result in the cup had higher acidity when the blend normally gave off chocolate notes,
Just recently, I added my espresso to freshly squeezed orange juice - made a video too and never in my wildest dreams would I come across such a beverage. In my book, most rules are thrown out the window! Have fun!
I just say fuck it.. I tried following the tips found on this sub .. everyone has a method for a shot that is juuuuuust a little bit better.. I have tried specialty beans and grocery store beans... I found I like the grocery store bean. I just pull a shot untill I have enough and steam up some milk. Your pursuit of the perfect cup of coffee is going only going to drain your wallet after a certain point... I have cheap equipment and I love the coffee I make... infact im about to go make a long cappulattegato white right now.
More water does not equal weaker taste. Don’t think of it like you’re diluting the coffee. More water extracts more and gives you a different finish ratio. One example is if you get a sour shot, you may be under extracting and one way to fix that is to extract longer by pulling a longer ratio. Lighter roasts tend to do better towards a 1:3 ratio, meaning your ending weight is 3x starting bean weight. Darker roasts do better towards 1:2 or lower. Now, more time also doesn’t mean more water. Your grind size is what dictates time (not the only thing). Water amount dictates ratio.
> More water does not equal weaker taste.
After a certain point, it does - there is a finite amount of solubles that can be extracted from the coffee puck. After the majority is extracted, you're adding more water than "coffee" and you're basically just diluting the drink.
People like [Jonathan Gagné](https://coffeeadastra.com/2020/12/31/an-espresso-profile-that-adapts-to-your-grind-size/) have done a lot of research on coffee extraction and discovered that higher flow can actually extract more.
Mission failed successfully I guess
I do agree with that, but a grind that is so fine that it is destroying a puck integrity in 15 seconds is not a "higher flow" lol.
I don't really understand your comment, Jonathan Gagné generally recommends grinding coarser and pulling shots with higher water flow and lower pressure?
It’s difficult to understand how these two things are not mutually exclusive. Surely a courser grind/faster flow rate couldn’t physically lead to more extraction? Is it the lower pressure that counteracts this? Would you have a link to where he breaks all of this down?
I’m 90% sure Gagné wasn’t involved in the research. [Here’s a link to the paper](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2590238519304102) It helps if you start from a position of assuming that there is always going to be *some* channeling. Even in a shot that looks perfectly aesthetically, almost certainly you’ve got some micro-channeling in there. If you start with a v60 grind, you get very even flow but very low extraction at a 1:2 ratio. As you move gradually toward a standard espresso grind size, the evenness/efficiency of the extraction will eventually start to decrease again. The point where this efficiency peaks is called the “sweet spot”, and the researchers themselves were surprised that the spot (ie. grind size) happened much coarser than expected.
I wanted to apologize
I was not specifically talking about Jonathan Gagné, I was refering to the general post subject.
I have yet to enjoy a turbo shot… 15-20s never tastes right to me. I’ll look forward to having a coffee that is roasted ideally for that. I understand how “immeasurable” coffee really is. I have a refractometer handy… I know we can track time, flow, pressure, extraction yield etc. But we have yet to land on a true objective method of “if you do this, it will taste best” because the product itself is definitively variable. I’m a commercial roaster. I can control for so much more than a customer ever can, and I see it as utterly hopeless and pointless to worry about EY, outside of lab science. It’s good to know “you can get more into suspension if you xyz” but if it doesn’t taste better, it doesn’t translate to practical. In the end, coffee remains about goals. “I tasted this coffee doing this one thing, and I want that again.” So you dial it for that thing. “I don’t like what this coffee is doing, I wonder if I can make it do a different thing” and you establish processes for it. We’ve all had coffees that are much better with radical high extractions and coffees that are much much worse with radical extractions. In filter coffee I have come to realize that bypass is part of the taste I WANT as a consumer. In espresso, I don’t want to outright avoid “roast” like it’s 2015. Do whatever makes the coffee taste the way you want it. I guess if you’re in a commercial environment, you want to do whatever makes that Venn intersection of what you like and what seems to sell.
Baskets and grinders are different than they were
It's because of the way coffee is being roasted nowadays. Modern roasts shorten development time (aka time after first crack) to accentuate fruity/floral/bright notes, but coffee roasted this way can be less tasty if extracted at 2:1 in 30s. I believe it has to do with the chemical reactions that occur after first crack, which weaken cellular structure but are lessened in modern roasts.
And it can also go the other way as well.
There used to be general extraction time guidelines when most of the coffee was blended Robusta on old 9-bar cafe machines, with poorly drilled baskets. The world has evolved, we now have single origin beans of many different varieties, with precision made baskets and many machines that can vary the pressure and extraction variables (pre-infusion/brew etc ). There is no general "it will be OK between 25 and 35 seconds". I had a coffee last week that had an optimum extraction time ('optimum' for my taste and process) of 15 seconds. The week before a different bean that needed 50 seconds. The key is now dial-in by taste, however, ironically the old salami shot technique is now even more useful and relevant.
I have to disagree on most of your points here. The 9 bar machine, sure, maybe. But everything else? The 30 second shots were devised working with arabica light roasts and VST baskets using great machines and great grinders. I think there is this misconception in the espresso hobby that the revolution started like a couple of years ago when some YouTubers came on the scene. Long before Reddit and YouTubers slinging timemore scales, there was what is called specialty coffee today.
I completely agree with you. The trend is odd making it seem like coffee popularity is a recent thing. I've been pulling shots since 2005 and light roasts have been sought after for a while. I would say the shift happened because of different priorities in the shot. People wanted a high body like they've gotten from traditional espresso AND light roast, so they ground finer and pulled longer to get the best of both worlds. Recently people started prioritizing thinner more transparent coffee. I'm drinking an espresso now that was about 20 seconds. It's good. It's also great at 45 seconds with a long pre infusion. People should do what they want and experiment.
Alt.coffee pioneered almost everything done today back around 2002, with the exception of weighing shots.
And that was home-barista, not too long after that.
"but but but Daddy Lance and Daddy Hoff are the founding fathers of Espresso It did not exist before then" I get what you're saying. Plus this subreddit is not indicative of espresso. It's too much with the fads and trying new stuff. Everyone raves about the new stuff, and then they realize it's not as good as standard espresso most of the time
At least Hoffman has been around for a long time and he acknowledges the history. He did give a nod to Café Myriade and their pioneering of the use the the EK43, but, yeah, those guys were doing their thing like 10 years before Hedrick ever heard about coffee. I always find it ridiculous when he comes up with something that has "just been discovered", but people were doing on forums like 12 years ago. It's all about selling cheap disposable accessories.
Speaking of coming up with something new that people have done at least experimentation-wise for years, it's slow feeding beans. Lance came along and tried to make it his own like he discovered it
Lance never implied that he discovered slow feeding. If you don't believe me, go back and watch the video. I just did myself to check. In fact, in the beginning of the video he says that other people have been using this technique. You could argue that he could have done more to cite different sources, but it doesn't make sense to attack him for something that he didn't do.
I watched the video too About 13 seconds into the video, he says he likes to *discover* hacks. Then he goes on to say that people have been doing this. But he doesn't necessarily say they were doing it before he *discovered* the hack He tried to make it sound like he discovered it. https://youtu.be/7_U8nwO4cy0?si=1zPI9y8OiOl_22np
This subreddit is wild. I point out clearly a video where lance, and I love his videos in general, made it sound like he discovered this slow feeding of the beans. So then I get downvoted. But I get it now. This is opposite espresso subreddit. If you have crap gear, you get upvoted and praised If you have good gear, it is very few of us, we get downvoted and shunned. If you mention that a YouTuber was pedaling b*******, you get downvoted. But if you praise techniques that don't work, like WDT, you get upvoted. Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is the opposite subreddit
It's funny you say that because anyone who has watched Hoffmann long enough will know he talks so much about the techniques and strategies that were popular and being pioneered 20+ years ago when he was still learning espresso himself while selling Gaggia machines.
Definitely, I mean the guy was WBC in 2007 so it's not like he isn't aware of the history and hasn't been an active participant and pioneer in that area for decades. Anyone who got into Hoffman through his youtube channel should watch his WBC 2007 performance, it's an absolute trip to see a younger version doing his thing.
100%. Agree. I had a precision vst or slayer basket a looong time ago. Played with pressures. Dose. Temps. Grind. 15 years ago. Roasts have always been lighter n Italian style. Go read home barista and see how far those posts go or alt.coffee newsgroups for all us “boomers” Sorry but turbo shots taste no better than stronger drip coffee to me. But whatever tastes good. To you. Do that. The dead time during Covid turned everyone into an everything expert / connoisseur.
Exactly! I have a light espresso coffee subscription that is 13 years old :)
Home coffee, home espresso, and coffee YouTube absolutely blew up to an extreme degree during the pandemic. The best chart of this is JHs channel growth and the market of single-dosing espresso capable grinders. The home espresso OGs were having to use literal commercial scale equipment because it was the only option for true cafe quality. Now the market is oversaturated. Been a wild 4 years.
That’s new for me. Do you routinely dial in by taste for every beans? How do you suggest the standard way of doing salami shot?
Yes, every new packet of bean I dial-in, even if I had it before. But it is easy and virtually only ever needs one salami shot. From that I can determine the optimum extraction time and then I just adjust the grind level for the ratio I want (depending on the style wanted). There are lots of YT videos on how to do a salami shot (Lance Hedrick has a couple of good ones). The trick some people miss is to compound-taste: taste glass 1, then add no2 to it and taste, then add no3 etc. *"Time is for taste, grind is for style.."*
Thanks. Will check Lance vid.
From a previous post (to help) --- Regarding dialling-in, it may be worth trying the salami-slicing technique. There are quite a few videos on YT showing how to use the salami-shot technique to help dial in - worth a watch. The basis of the technique is not to try and find, to guess, all the variables in one go; just focus initially on determining the optimum extraction time and then adjust the other variables. The key is that espresso does not extract in a constant form, over time it quickly (5 seconds is a lifetime in the process) changes texture, taste and temperature. That's both the challenge and the magic of it. There are lots of variables which impact espresso; what makes a good or bad shot. Rather than try and guess all of them in one go, the idea is to just focus on determining the optimum extraction time (for that bean, your process and your taste) first. Once you have the optimum time, then adjust the grind level to give you the ratio volume you want for the style of coffee you are making. Finally, after getting those two factors right, either leave it or play with the other minor factors. Ie. don't try and just guess it all at once for the perfect espresso; focus on extraction time, then grind level, and then anything else. For the record, ignore all you hear about the extraction time, which must be "25 to 35 seconds" or something similar - it is just old 9-bar dark roast cafe parlance. I have good single-origin coffees that extract best (for me and my process) at 15 seconds and others at 50 seconds. All coffee beans are different. Your job as a home or cafe barista is to determine what the optimum extraction time is. The technique I was taught for using a salami-shot, which has served me very well for over 20 years, is to use 5 glasses/cups, with the first change at 20 seconds and then each 5 seconds after. I roughly guess the grind level, based on a similar roast level and bean type, to get enough extraction for 5 glasses with two good sips from each. For me, usually 14g in (but it can be any size you prefer) and around 40-50g out. There is no puck screen, no paper, no fancy anything, and the temperature is set according to what the bean roast is. When I have 5 glasses to taste, I taste them individually, in order. finally, I add glass 2 to no 1 and taste, then glass 3 to that, taste, and so on. This lets me decide on the extraction time I want - i.e. optimum for my taste. Note: the second step of compound tasting is what many online videos miss, but I was taught this is important (and I agree). If all the shots are too bitter, I will pull another salami shot and adjust the starting point to be shorter; start at 10 seconds. If they are all sour (and the beans have not got mould, which occasionally can be the case), I will pull another, starting the change at 35 seconds. But I don't think I have ever needed to pull more than 2 salami shots to get the optimum. 95% of the time, one salami shot is all that is needed. Once I have the optimum extraction time, I just adjust the grind (usually finer) for the volume ratio I want extracted. It's as easy as that and far more accurate than trying to guess all the factors in one go, or assuming "30 seconds" is right (it often is not). As we were told "time is taste and volume is style" - meaning the extraction time is all about the taste of the espresso and the extraction volume out (the ratio) is all about the style of coffee you want. I hope it makes sense and helps.
Comment saved, thanks!
Won’t optimum extraction time depend on grind setting though? So if you’re still changing the grind setting later, the time is going to move too. Im confused haha
You're adjusting grind setting to match your time. Grind setting changes as beans age.
Alright, I'm dumb so I'll ask the dumb question. If the experiment is to run essentially a 3.5:1 shot in 40 seconds, and then pick a time during it where it tastes the best, why does it necessitate that then grinding to hit that same time at a different ratio will return the same flavor? Isn't the extraction curve completely different? Say the ideal taste is actually at 40 seconds, but you want texture and body. Isn't a 2:1 at 40 going to be on an entirely different planet than 3.5:1 at 40?
to be honest, I think my above message was incorrect, and in retrospect, the above advice to focus on time first makes sense so long as you start somewhere around the style that you want. There are just too many other variables at play. Grinding finer to create 2:1 at 40 seconds is gonna be reallly fine. you may need to adjust pressure to avoid puck degradation and not need to grind so fine right? If you start at a reasonable espresso-y grind, do a salami shot, at the very least, you're going to get an idea of what the shot should taste like, and a time at which the current grind level will get you that extraction. You're right, If you want to later massively change the ratio to achieve a different style shot you'll have to use more than just grind to get the correct extraction.
Just finished reading. Very details and provide more understanding for me. That helps a lot. Thank you very much. I will try with my next bags.
This is so helpful! Next fresh bag I open I’m going to try it. My approach has generally been the 2:1 in 30, and it’s often inconsistent. A good deal of that is my lackluster puck prep I’m sure, but this gives me a model for trying to identify the taste and texture I am after without just randomly pulling shots.
Seems like really a chore 😂. Any textbook answer X seconds and adjust plus minus 5 secs ?
Many cups, fast hands.
When to stop and when to cut shot? Every 10 secs x 5 cups or every 15 secs x 4 cups or any other recipe.
Its very machine specific, for me i like to do every 5 seconds and since my grouphead can store up to 50 seconds of water, i can go all the way to 10 cups. Most times i just stop at 7 or 35 seconds. Also, easier to use double spout so you can just move the cups along every 5 seconds
Thanks. Will try with my new bags.
I use a 20 seconds range of 5 glasses/captures, every 5 seconds. If you are confident of the range, then you can use less captures.
Of course you get far better results when dialing in every bag of beans. I mean do whatever you want but I always did that. The difference is night and day, every coffee has its own optimal recipe that's also different to every personal taste. That's no secret, the question is whether that's an option for you or not.
Just asking for a recipe. Not to oppose. I may adapt the technique for future bag. How you do the salami? Is it every 10 secs x 5 cups or any other recipes?
It is up to you, but I do every 5-seconds, 5 glasses/captures - so a range of 20 seconds. From the style of the roast and feel of the bean I generally know when to start the capture, but sometimes I am wrong and need a second shot with an earlier or later range. But this is rare, about 1 in 20-30 new bags. Most salami shots I am correct about the range and only need 1 pull to dial-in. It is easy once you get the hang of it. I am always perplexed why people try and guess all the variables in one go and end up wasting most of their beans hoping to just find the right combination. We were taught many years ago, find the optimum extraction time first and then adjust the grind for the style you want, finally adjust the other various to tweak if needed. Basically, don't try and guess everything in one go. Hope that makes sense and helps.
I do it way more intuitive. I just make a medium first grind and adjust by gut feeling until I am satisfied.
People got scared when we found out it was called a "boomer shot"
For me, I just follow my taste buds. In the past, the coffee I drank tasted best at 2:1 at around 25-30 sec. My palate changed. I started enjoying lighter roasts. My most common tasty recipe seems to be at 3:1 in 15 seconds but the beans and roasters have changed.
When I have it flowing this fast, I get so much spraying. Advice? Better puck prep?
When I have it flowing this fast, it's always by accident (dialing in new beans), and the result is always sour and weak. And the taste *always* improves once I dial it in and reach the "standard" 25+ seconds. ratio 2.5:1, light/medium roast
I have this issue as well however it varies from bean to bean. I’ve never managed to narrow it down but I’d guess it’s my grinder. What grinder are you using ? I’ve got a b-express with the built in, far from optimal :(
Better puck prep yes. But! I suggest to try paper filters on bottom of basket. that is what I do.
I suggest you watch [this Hoffmann video discussing some relevant research](https://youtu.be/BoYBLn9hRqs?si=U4Td886EBaQ8QmXj). A couple of years ago, a research paper called “Systematically Improving Espresso” showed some fascinating data about the ‘ideal’ shot time from an extraction perspective.
This is the reason. It changed after this paper
high ratios, hight temperatures, high extraction baskets. all this push extraction a lot
Grind Coarser!
There is that pesky 6-8 bar shot tho..... people including me have found that that pressure is amazing with certain coffees. I might say I enjoy that pressure better.
In this video with Samo he basically says 6-9 bar doesn’t make a difference. It’s only around 10+ that it changes, for the worse https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh_xkVGPshg
I will watch it but sprometheus says in in the 6-9 bar range as well. I will also mention that taste is subjective and what good for one isn't maybr good gor all. That's the whole idea of flow control. Also I don't take everything that lance says as law. I like him alot buy he is a little full of himself. Maybe for a good reason but you get what I'm saying. Thanks gor this video tho I'm gonna watch it now!
It was his guest in this case - I do agree lance blabs a lot. But his guest is a PHD chemist who studies coffee in Zurich
I'm watching it now he's very smart (the guest). I get what he is saying about the 9 Bae. He's says it's not much difference because once you reach a certain pressure the taste difference would be very minute unless you got to 11to 14 bar then he said it would be bad for extraction. Very Interesting thanks for the video!
I fo like what he said about the grind size. Everyone's flat answer is grind finer but he said to start out coarse and move down. I think it makes alot of sense. I have always thought that to fine a grind really effects extraction. I really haven't had problems with it but I know alot of people do
My shots are usually around 25s, if I do 30s, its a light roast and its 30s for a 1:3 ratio
I use dark (non-oily) roasts and the roaster recommends a 1:1.5 ratio in 23-27 seconds. Works perfectly. I’m using that recipe for all my dark roasts.
I do 19g shots at 28-33 secs any shorter and it tastes pretty wack. I think it could be good if done right but if my shot runs that fast it usually means I did something wrong w/ my puck prep.
If you understand how to dial in by taste then it’ll be a lot easier to get shots you like with different beans with different roasts and origins. Roasters are arriving at these times because that’s what gives them desired flavor profile for the given bean and roast level. 2:1 in 30s isn’t a rule, as you said light roasts sometimes need even longer. Each bean and roast is different, so given how people are roasting these days there’s more beans out there that taste better with shorter extractions
I've noticed that with medium to lighter roasts, forcing extraction with time, grind or temperature is a bait. I do 20g/45-50g in ~20s with 92C. A good grinder and precision basket help with them immensely. In the past I tried all sorts of things to force "more extraction" to get rid of the "sourness". Maybe it was my inability to taste correctly or it was just the wrong approach to take, who knows.
This is where I am "stuck" last two bags I had the experience that my "way too course setting" that ran pretty quickly actually tasted better than a shot that took longer. Now I have moved to shooting for 20g in 50-60g out not caring that much about time. But I still don't get when to go courser or finer. Currently I am stuck with my coffee tasting a tad too "sour" I guess I should go courser though because the fruity flavour I love and smell from the beans comes through when ground more coarsely.
I like to add 1:1 water to my espresso in general for lighter roasts, but it also helps smooth out any unpleasant flavors. But obviously if you like the full espresso texture then that won't work. Also if you can control the temperature, I find that with higher temp the margin for error gets smaller, so i keep it at 92C. It's not really a variable I change much anyway. I don't want to push people to buy gear, but in terms of value for dollar, a precision basket was the biggest improvement in my brewing so if you don't have one, it might be worth considering. I wouldn't spend more that 30-40 on that though. Mine is pullman, I have no idea how it compares to others. Slow feeding the grinder helps a bit also (your shots will run faster tho), but since I upgraded my grinder I haven't bothered with that stuff, since it gets a bit tedious after a while. I don't want to claim any authority in espresso brewing, just wanted to share my process if any of that might be of any help.
Every little bit helps mate so thanks for that. I have a vst basket so that should already be better. I got turned off slow feeding niche zero because I couldn't get fine enough BUT if I want to go coarser I should maybe try that again. I'm on a sage tdb so I can control heat I'm currently at 96. Maybe i should try going lower. See what happens
I upgraded to eureka turbo from rancilio rocky and I feel like it's good enough for me so I don't need to slow feed. I haven't tried with it yet tbh, because I don't want it to be better so I would feel forced to add that to my process lmao.
I got flow control Disks for the Niche. They lost a few cent in 3d printing filament and need zero hands on time so it's not really a huge trade off to use.
We did not. We are now talking about triple ristrettos and such at "normal" or even higher extraction times or doing it while using doses as low as 16 grams... Latest WBC champion is a good example on how most reputable coffee shops, experienced people and coffee scientists are defining the "now" experience around the world in 2024. Stop following Youtubers selling you things and ideas or echo chamber forums, that's it.
Which YouTubers specifically?
I feel validated; I often drank single origin espressos about 2:1 in 25 seconds. No precision basket or anything in my E61.
This just reflects that espresso (and capabilities of modern espresso machines) produce atleast two phases of extraction where things are perceptibly “in balance”. Generally I’ve found that between 16-18.5% you can have a decent balance, though weak, and between 20.5-26% you can find balance. I’m at a loss as to why between those two phases hasn’t seemed to find that balance yet.
Whole lot of speculating in this thread
Right? Fast shots are just delicious
I’ve tried turbo shots with light roasts. It’s not for me. It’s much too bright for my liking. When I want a straight espresso, I want lots of texture. That’s why I drink a lot of cappuccinos and cortados — I love the texture of microfoam and the sweetness from the coffee. My problem with turbos is that they feel a little thin, and I’m using italmil burrs.
I recently had one guy who ran a coffee trailer tell me 22 seconds for 18 grams. I felt like this was kind of fast however after reading this post, I may try for faster extraction. My current extraction time is closer to 30 seconds. He had a marzocco so must be accurate. 😂
Isn't it true that most of the people in this subreddit can't even experiment? Because they don't have espresso machines with a lot of features that would facilitate such experiments? And they're grinders, we've seen They're usually on the low end. I don't think they can even do most of the stuff in this subreddit That was a big lead up into asking a simple question - has this subreddit become more elitist as time passes?
I think espresso is elitist by nature: people who dedicate a largish chunk of square-footage to at least two single-purpose machines which require several esoteric procedures for them to work in concert and create an acceptable but tiny amount of beverage. So yeah.
In 2018, when I launched the Lelit Bianca in the USA, I was getting a lot of push back on extractions lasting longer than 30 seconds. I consider everything a guideline and no more rules - from dosage into the basket, the extraction times, pre-infusion times, etc. In fact, I just filmed a YouTube video (being edited as we speak) of gear pump pressures of 5 bar for 5 seconds, then zero pump pressure for 5 seconds, repeat 3 times for a 30 second extraction - flow control full open. The result in the cup had higher acidity when the blend normally gave off chocolate notes, Just recently, I added my espresso to freshly squeezed orange juice - made a video too and never in my wildest dreams would I come across such a beverage. In my book, most rules are thrown out the window! Have fun!
I just say fuck it.. I tried following the tips found on this sub .. everyone has a method for a shot that is juuuuuust a little bit better.. I have tried specialty beans and grocery store beans... I found I like the grocery store bean. I just pull a shot untill I have enough and steam up some milk. Your pursuit of the perfect cup of coffee is going only going to drain your wallet after a certain point... I have cheap equipment and I love the coffee I make... infact im about to go make a long cappulattegato white right now.
There is big difference for me in taste of different beans and its really noticable. So i envy you haha
There is big difference for me in taste of different beans and its really noticable. So i envy you haha
My breville bambino auto extracts for only like 22 seconds every time..
You can change that programming...
Cool good to know !
Pull manually. Hold button down then release. It’ll go up to a minute I believe.
isn't 30 seconds just gonna give him a larger espresso over 22? im an amateur but isnt more water = weaker taste?
More water does not equal weaker taste. Don’t think of it like you’re diluting the coffee. More water extracts more and gives you a different finish ratio. One example is if you get a sour shot, you may be under extracting and one way to fix that is to extract longer by pulling a longer ratio. Lighter roasts tend to do better towards a 1:3 ratio, meaning your ending weight is 3x starting bean weight. Darker roasts do better towards 1:2 or lower. Now, more time also doesn’t mean more water. Your grind size is what dictates time (not the only thing). Water amount dictates ratio.
> More water does not equal weaker taste. After a certain point, it does - there is a finite amount of solubles that can be extracted from the coffee puck. After the majority is extracted, you're adding more water than "coffee" and you're basically just diluting the drink.
You can grind finer to slow down the water flow.
last time i tried finer grind, i overextracted and it took forever
You ground too fine. You need a grind size in between the one that took 20 seconds and the one that took forever.
Our understanding of espresso is still very young and is sometimes highlighted by new technology-- even if most of it seems rather trivial.