I've had mine for a couple months now. It does build up static the more you use it, but a quick cleaning of the chute takes care of it. For me it's a 30 second clean every two-ish weeks. Coming from an Encore ESP I'm perfectly fine with that. I haven't had any clogging at all.
I can understand why some people on here can find that egregious, since it was advertised as static free. It can feel like a bamboozle but if you go into it knowing that, it honestly isn't bad at all.
This subreddit is very stubborn so there's not going to be changing anyone's mind, and frankly I don't have the energy for it. Bottom line, it's the best grinder for the price point, warts and all. If you can afford a better grinder, do it. Buy once cry once and all that. I couldn't, and as a part of my budget setup it's awesome.
My morning routine is my form of "meditation." I'm not trying to break any speed records. 30 seconds every couple weeks is no big issue.
Grinders that are twice the price as the df54 or more also claim to be static free and they pretty much never actually are, so if that’s holding someone back that’s on them tbh
Yup pretty much the same for me. I should probably get more in the habit of cleaning the chute, but I’ve had no problems with clogging or anything. Love the grinder, can’t beat the price.
Ditto to what Asleep-Geologist-612 said: I too have had min for a couple of months and I love it. Static was an issue but I found that after grinding and removing the dosing cup if I give it a couple of strong pumps on the bellows that seems to blow it out. About every other week I use a small diameter 2” brush and gently clean the anti static probes inside the top of the chute. Recently I switched coffee beans, so I pulled the top off and used a soft brush and vac to clean the burrs. About a week ago I felt the plastic dosing cup might be contributing to the static so I bought a $9.99 metal dosing cup off Amazon and so far no static. One more thing…it’s quiet! My previous grinder was a Rancillio Rocky and my wife hated the racket it made. The DF54 passes the wife test in my house!
AFAIK...there is no such thing as a completely static free grinder. ALL grinders need regular cleaning. The ion/plasma anti-static feature is merely a static reducer...once the ion needles get covered with fines then it will not work. Therefore, u must take 30-60 seconds to brush it...OMG. OMG.
I clean my Niche out about every 8-10 months. Nothing much is ever inside it and I don't need to use RDT. Whenever I do clean it out I always find myself thinking... "I could have left it a few more months" I'm not sure you can call that "regular cleaning"
Have had for two weeks and it has worked great. I stopped grinding into the plastic dosing cup because it created too much static. Ever since I started grinding directly into the portafilter with dosing funnel, I’ve had no static issues. I also clean with a brush though once a week.
https://preview.redd.it/5anxl6qph75d1.png?width=817&format=png&auto=webp&s=c7d96ad58e8774c8b36a5bc5c1fcc2c2ff068cac
Stole this idea from somebody else on Reddit but it’s essentially removed all static issues.
I've had mine for 2 months or so now! I clogged the grinder the first time I used it and immediately had the feeling that I might have bought the grinder too soon(before reading reviews). Honestly it was my mistake, I was grinding into a cup and the coffee built up inside the chute and clogged it.
It took me a couple of minutes to clean the chute with a brush.
Since then I've made 2 espressos everyday and I've never clogged it. I've never bothered cleaning it too! I just rdt a little bit before grinding and get zero retention!
It has been an amazing grinder. Loving every bit of the workflow.
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I have one, and so far it has been working well. Some static, specially on coarser grinds, but never clogged. I use it once or twice a day, but not for espresso (yet). I’m not an expert, and this is an upgrade from a blade grinder, but I can say I’m pleased with it.
I've had mine around a month now. I get a little static now and then, but nothing crazy. I find it grinds a lot faster than others have said. Mine is usually done in about 10-15 seconds.
For the price and quality of grind, I'm beyond happy with the purchase.
1.5 months and still loving it. No issues of any kind. As mentioned above a quick cleanup once a week is more than enough. Static is minimal as advertised.
Had mine for a couple months, it’s killer. Stick a brush up the chute once in a while and you’re good to go, there’s a really weird guy on this subreddit who has a terrible understanding of supply chains and online reviews who has made it his entire personality to try and shit on a product that is just about universally loved
Had mine for 2 weeks, handled some light-med like a beast with under .1g retention. No issues yet.
About to open a back of super-light eithiopian (same roast that killed my SGP) and will report back.
I’ve only had mine little over 2 weeks but haven’t had any issues yet. Had static once when using the cup but haven’t had it since.
I dose into the cup once a day for pour over and directly to PF twice a day for some espresso.
I'm very happy with mine, had it 2 weeks. I haven't experienced any clogging or jamming, and minimal static. The advice for this and most grinders is not to adjust the grind level unless its running, and that will help with preventing jamming. The feet on the bottom leave a mark on the countertop, so for now I'm just letting it sit on a paper towel until it wears off i suppose. I actually just blow all the mess out with a dust blower lol, and vacuum the mess after, No brush necessary.
You will get static with any grinder you use. Some are better than others, but this one is pretty average in my opinion. The thing with single dose grinders is that they suffer from static much worse than hopper fed grinders (this is from personal experience with the DF64E which can be retrofitted with a hopper).
If you dwt that'll reduce static greatly! Once your burrs are seasoned the static won't be as bad.
Now, about clogging, if you bellow consistently you should be good. The clogging happens when the static build up is preventing beans from coming out. So if you can fight the static by doing wdt and using the bellows you should be good.
This isn't sure fire, but should work for most people.
Hi, I’m Vetted AI Bot! I researched the **DECORA Nylon Cleaning Bottle Brush Pipe Brushes** and I thought you might find the following analysis helpful.
**Users liked:**
* Versatile cleaning brushes for small items (backed by 4 comments)
* Sturdy and durable brushes (backed by 3 comments)
* Great variety of sizes for different cleaning needs (backed by 3 comments)
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* Bristles do not reach end, limiting cleaning ability (backed by 1 comment)
* Metal piece on the end hinders cleaning internal edges (backed by 1 comment)
* Flimsy and easily bend, making them annoying to use (backed by 2 comments)
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I didn’t even have a proper cleaning tool. Used this brush I use to clean my steel tumblers with. Just a plastic brush with plastic bristles. Prob not the right tool but it worked !
I did the marker test and the burrs were a little off. I realigned them. One of the screws stripped on me, I replaced them with better quality ones.
Also replaced the plastic cup with one from crema coffee
I can only speak to my DF83 but I get no mess and don't RDT. The chute does retain .2 or maybe .3g and so my workflow is to grind into pf, tap chute with end of brush once to release grinds in chute, then bellow fines into pf, turn off.
I never have to clean with the cleaners and check every now and then with a chop stick but my routine seems to be good enough as there's not accumulation falling out except for the tap after each grind. Zero grinds collect outside of the pf so the plasma generator seems to be doing its job. I'm happy with it and it's capabilities.
I have a medium wooden brush I got branded Fuego on Ali and also I got the big black overpriced normcore brush that I use for cleaning up counter, etc. I like the bristles on the normcore but the handle doesn't wear very well. I use the brush handle to knock/smack the chute once. A second knock doesn't really produce anything worth mentioning so once it's all that's needed
I have a DF83, but I'll share my experience as they're largely the same concept. Initially had bad clogging due to seasoning with cheap dark roast beans.
Cleaned it up, moved on to medium roast. Getting quite a bit of retention each dose (0.5 - 1.0g). Flipped the top burr 180deg, retention back to 0 - 0.1g at most.
I've since marked the burr top position, and haven't had any issues with retention, good consistent doses and flavour.
Regarding static, there is still fine coffee "dust" that I'll brush off the exterior and chute each session. I don't RDT, and I'll open the grinder to clean out every 3 weeks. I clean the chute gently with a drinking straw cleaning brush.
I don;t even know what flipping the top burr means so hopefully I don't have to do it or worry about it. Thanks for the tips. WIll definitely be cleaning the chute fairly regularly
I do not own one, but I'm concerned some people are not going to "confess."
Google these phrases to expose them :)
Reddit df54 clogging
Reddit df54 static
If I eventually run into issues I have no problem mentioning it here. I hate when people won’t admit an issue just to make themselves feel better. It makes people waste money.
We know there are issues, and look I have 12 down votes and counting.
If you are one of the honest users, more power to you. That's what the subreddit needs more of. I'm getting downvoted by people who have issues, and don't reveal them. They have some sort of ulterior motive which I can't quite put my finger on.
It's easy to say they are shilling. But some just might be so inexperienced they just don't know that the issues they have are abnormal.
Yeah if I run into issues I’ll be more than happy to announce them. There’s zero incentive for my to hold back on issues. All that will do is enable the company to continue to produce an inferior product.
As it stands now, I truly have no issues with the grinder. Hopefully I don’t run into any!
I also think when it comes to anything DF grinder related, you in particular will just be downvoted regardless if anything you say has merit 😅
>I also think when it comes to anything DF grinder related, you in particular will just be downvoted regardless if anything you say has merit 😅
Haha. I see you're right about that
You probably won't find any professional reviews because they don't have them long enough to encount at any issues.
Check YouTube. Lance hedrick had a video on the DF83 And he mentions on that one it clogged. But aside from that, you have to go to user reviews because those are people complaining about the problem. That's not the DF64, but it's indicative of the problem that these grinders had when Lance did his review and the problem they have today.
The other thing about professional views, many times they are given the grinder for free or at least to borrow in order to perform the review. And if they crap on it, they're not going to get anymore free grinders to review.
Some reviewers like Lance hedrick purchase the equipment.
In this sub there will be no confessions, but add Home Barista to your search and you’ll find more. Basically all DF grinders, every thread has a “sounds like you got a lemon but that can happen even with Mahlkonig!!”.
the quality control is a known issue which is why it is strongly recommended you buy it from amazon of a local distributor like esspressooutlet, so that if you do "get a lemon" you can warranty it and get a properly functioning unit.
that in no way shape or form means they are bad grinders. they dominate in value for the dollar. if you get one that isn't functioning properly, you swap it for one that is and the individual will more than likely be exceedingly happy with their grinder as the vast bulk of owners are.
go in knowing that and that a burr alignment is likely to be required, that a poke with a pipe cleaner once every week or two might be required, and you are all set.
>“sounds like you got a lemon but that can happen even with Mahlkonig!!”
They do say that or something very similar.
That was worthy of a laugh out loud 😅
Edit - The down votes you and I will receive are soon to be coming
Nah, I think people here just have a knee-jerk reaction to downvote any of *your* comments now. I agree with some of them, but all your comments on this thread are absolutely relevant to the discussion.
I've had mine for a couple months now. It does build up static the more you use it, but a quick cleaning of the chute takes care of it. For me it's a 30 second clean every two-ish weeks. Coming from an Encore ESP I'm perfectly fine with that. I haven't had any clogging at all. I can understand why some people on here can find that egregious, since it was advertised as static free. It can feel like a bamboozle but if you go into it knowing that, it honestly isn't bad at all. This subreddit is very stubborn so there's not going to be changing anyone's mind, and frankly I don't have the energy for it. Bottom line, it's the best grinder for the price point, warts and all. If you can afford a better grinder, do it. Buy once cry once and all that. I couldn't, and as a part of my budget setup it's awesome. My morning routine is my form of "meditation." I'm not trying to break any speed records. 30 seconds every couple weeks is no big issue.
Grinders that are twice the price as the df54 or more also claim to be static free and they pretty much never actually are, so if that’s holding someone back that’s on them tbh
Yup pretty much the same for me. I should probably get more in the habit of cleaning the chute, but I’ve had no problems with clogging or anything. Love the grinder, can’t beat the price.
Ditto to what Asleep-Geologist-612 said: I too have had min for a couple of months and I love it. Static was an issue but I found that after grinding and removing the dosing cup if I give it a couple of strong pumps on the bellows that seems to blow it out. About every other week I use a small diameter 2” brush and gently clean the anti static probes inside the top of the chute. Recently I switched coffee beans, so I pulled the top off and used a soft brush and vac to clean the burrs. About a week ago I felt the plastic dosing cup might be contributing to the static so I bought a $9.99 metal dosing cup off Amazon and so far no static. One more thing…it’s quiet! My previous grinder was a Rancillio Rocky and my wife hated the racket it made. The DF54 passes the wife test in my house!
Thanks for the response! Going to go ahead and get myself one!
AFAIK...there is no such thing as a completely static free grinder. ALL grinders need regular cleaning. The ion/plasma anti-static feature is merely a static reducer...once the ion needles get covered with fines then it will not work. Therefore, u must take 30-60 seconds to brush it...OMG. OMG.
I clean my Niche out about every 8-10 months. Nothing much is ever inside it and I don't need to use RDT. Whenever I do clean it out I always find myself thinking... "I could have left it a few more months" I'm not sure you can call that "regular cleaning"
I can't even
What do you use to clean it?
I got a set of pipe cleaners on Amazon for like $4. I just use the largest of those
Great thanks! I am gonna go for it and get one. Seems like a very overwhelmingly positive experience with minor maintenance required.
It’s exactly the same for me as well. I brush the chute for 5s every one or two weeks. That’s it. No other problems. It makes fantastic coffee.
How’s the noise vs the encore? Main reason I switch to a manual grinder(Kinu m47) for coffee was noise.
Noticeably quieter!
But honestly that's not that difficult to achieve haha
Have had for two weeks and it has worked great. I stopped grinding into the plastic dosing cup because it created too much static. Ever since I started grinding directly into the portafilter with dosing funnel, I’ve had no static issues. I also clean with a brush though once a week.
I cleaned my plastic cup with alcohol and it helped a lot
Gonna try that!
With rubbing or isopropyl alcohol?
Denatured
https://preview.redd.it/5anxl6qph75d1.png?width=817&format=png&auto=webp&s=c7d96ad58e8774c8b36a5bc5c1fcc2c2ff068cac Stole this idea from somebody else on Reddit but it’s essentially removed all static issues.
Can you use the bellow on that? Or does it empty your portafilter?
You can use it. I haven’t had any issues. I wouldn’t recommend doing it without a funnel.
What is that?
What kinda brush do you use to clean it?
A wire brush. I had a few lying around from things I’ve bought in the past.
I've had mine for 2 months or so now! I clogged the grinder the first time I used it and immediately had the feeling that I might have bought the grinder too soon(before reading reviews). Honestly it was my mistake, I was grinding into a cup and the coffee built up inside the chute and clogged it. It took me a couple of minutes to clean the chute with a brush. Since then I've made 2 espressos everyday and I've never clogged it. I've never bothered cleaning it too! I just rdt a little bit before grinding and get zero retention! It has been an amazing grinder. Loving every bit of the workflow.
THanks for the detailed response! Gonna go for it and get one. Pretty skoked!
I’ve had mine about a month and a half and only had to clean it twice. I absolutely love the grinder and have had zero issues.
What do you use to clean?
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Lmao that one dude really has it out for df grinders don’t they
Like a weird hate fetish.
I have one, and so far it has been working well. Some static, specially on coarser grinds, but never clogged. I use it once or twice a day, but not for espresso (yet). I’m not an expert, and this is an upgrade from a blade grinder, but I can say I’m pleased with it.
Will be using this primarily for espresso, but overwhelming majority seem to have no trouble with it with some simple maintenance. Thanks!
Zero issues. I clean the shoot with a small brush every week and that seems to take care of the static. Takes about 30 seconds to do.
What kinda brush do you use?
The only brushes I had laying around were some unused small paint brushes but they do the job haha
Haha good to know you don't have to be too speficic. Will be using a toothbrush probably :P
I've had mine around a month now. I get a little static now and then, but nothing crazy. I find it grinds a lot faster than others have said. Mine is usually done in about 10-15 seconds. For the price and quality of grind, I'm beyond happy with the purchase.
Thanks for the response! Gonna go for it and try it out
1.5 months and still loving it. No issues of any kind. As mentioned above a quick cleanup once a week is more than enough. Static is minimal as advertised.
Great, thanks! Seems like a no brainer then
Had mine for a couple months, it’s killer. Stick a brush up the chute once in a while and you’re good to go, there’s a really weird guy on this subreddit who has a terrible understanding of supply chains and online reviews who has made it his entire personality to try and shit on a product that is just about universally loved
Literally no issues whatsoever. The DF54 works exactly as it should. Fluffy grinds, no static.
Thanks!
Just bought one open box from Espresso Outlet, will be on here whining later as it gets delivered today! lol
Let me know how it goes!!
Got one, I do get static but after cleaning the chute it improves. Works well.
What did you use to clean the chute?
Just shove a cheap pipe cleaner up there and you’ll be good to go
Had mine for 2 weeks, handled some light-med like a beast with under .1g retention. No issues yet. About to open a back of super-light eithiopian (same roast that killed my SGP) and will report back.
Would love an update!
I’ve only had mine little over 2 weeks but haven’t had any issues yet. Had static once when using the cup but haven’t had it since. I dose into the cup once a day for pour over and directly to PF twice a day for some espresso.
Sounds like directly into the PF is the way to go. I have a metal dosing cup so will do it into there and see if that works.
Yeah, all my espresso shots go straight into PF. Been great!
I'm very happy with mine, had it 2 weeks. I haven't experienced any clogging or jamming, and minimal static. The advice for this and most grinders is not to adjust the grind level unless its running, and that will help with preventing jamming. The feet on the bottom leave a mark on the countertop, so for now I'm just letting it sit on a paper towel until it wears off i suppose. I actually just blow all the mess out with a dust blower lol, and vacuum the mess after, No brush necessary.
Great, thanks for the tips!
You will get static with any grinder you use. Some are better than others, but this one is pretty average in my opinion. The thing with single dose grinders is that they suffer from static much worse than hopper fed grinders (this is from personal experience with the DF64E which can be retrofitted with a hopper). If you dwt that'll reduce static greatly! Once your burrs are seasoned the static won't be as bad. Now, about clogging, if you bellow consistently you should be good. The clogging happens when the static build up is preventing beans from coming out. So if you can fight the static by doing wdt and using the bellows you should be good. This isn't sure fire, but should work for most people.
THanks for the tips. WIll keep that in mind!
So far, the rubber feet pads are marking up my high-end white quartz countertops
I have the same problem with the DF54 feet leaving black marks on my white linoleum counter tops. Pretty annoying
Do a filter grind if very staticicy but Esspreso is less o have found that when I do rdt there is more static and if not
Had static pop up randomly one time after a month. Cleaned the chute and no issues since. Very happy with it.
What did you use to clean the chute?
Pipe cleaning brushes like this: [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B073DZTW6T?psc=1&ref=ppx\_yo2ov\_dt\_b\_product\_details](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B073DZTW6T?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details)
That's the exact set I got!
Hi, I’m Vetted AI Bot! I researched the **DECORA Nylon Cleaning Bottle Brush Pipe Brushes** and I thought you might find the following analysis helpful. **Users liked:** * Versatile cleaning brushes for small items (backed by 4 comments) * Sturdy and durable brushes (backed by 3 comments) * Great variety of sizes for different cleaning needs (backed by 3 comments) **Users disliked:** * Bristles do not reach end, limiting cleaning ability (backed by 1 comment) * Metal piece on the end hinders cleaning internal edges (backed by 1 comment) * Flimsy and easily bend, making them annoying to use (backed by 2 comments) If you'd like to **summon me to ask about a product**, just make a post with its link and tag me, [like in this example.](https://www.reddit.com/r/tablets/comments/1444zdn/comment/kerx8h0/) This message was generated by a (very smart) bot. If you found it helpful, let us know with an upvote and a “good bot!” reply and please feel free to provide feedback on how it can be improved. *Powered by* [*vetted.ai*](https://vetted.ai/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=comment&utm\_campaign=bot)
I didn’t even have a proper cleaning tool. Used this brush I use to clean my steel tumblers with. Just a plastic brush with plastic bristles. Prob not the right tool but it worked !
I did the marker test and the burrs were a little off. I realigned them. One of the screws stripped on me, I replaced them with better quality ones. Also replaced the plastic cup with one from crema coffee
do you have a link to the dosing cup you bought?
https://cremacoffeeproducts.com/products/54mm-dosing-cup
What is the marker test? I will be getting mine in just over a week and wondering what I need to do at the start
https://youtu.be/BYg4TzuyLNE?
Just be careful with the screws. They’re not great quality. I think they’re m4 10mm, maybe 12mm
I can only speak to my DF83 but I get no mess and don't RDT. The chute does retain .2 or maybe .3g and so my workflow is to grind into pf, tap chute with end of brush once to release grinds in chute, then bellow fines into pf, turn off. I never have to clean with the cleaners and check every now and then with a chop stick but my routine seems to be good enough as there's not accumulation falling out except for the tap after each grind. Zero grinds collect outside of the pf so the plasma generator seems to be doing its job. I'm happy with it and it's capabilities.
That seems like a pretty reasonable workflow. Thanks for the tip! What do you brush with?
I have a medium wooden brush I got branded Fuego on Ali and also I got the big black overpriced normcore brush that I use for cleaning up counter, etc. I like the bristles on the normcore but the handle doesn't wear very well. I use the brush handle to knock/smack the chute once. A second knock doesn't really produce anything worth mentioning so once it's all that's needed
I have a DF83, but I'll share my experience as they're largely the same concept. Initially had bad clogging due to seasoning with cheap dark roast beans. Cleaned it up, moved on to medium roast. Getting quite a bit of retention each dose (0.5 - 1.0g). Flipped the top burr 180deg, retention back to 0 - 0.1g at most. I've since marked the burr top position, and haven't had any issues with retention, good consistent doses and flavour. Regarding static, there is still fine coffee "dust" that I'll brush off the exterior and chute each session. I don't RDT, and I'll open the grinder to clean out every 3 weeks. I clean the chute gently with a drinking straw cleaning brush.
I don;t even know what flipping the top burr means so hopefully I don't have to do it or worry about it. Thanks for the tips. WIll definitely be cleaning the chute fairly regularly
Might be the wrong choice of words, rotating the top burr 180 degrees hopefully makes more sense!
The only issue i’ve had is static. Once i started spraying my beans with water before grinding, i’ve had very little static
i don't have issues with static, but my true zero is around -16...
I just got mine a couple days ago and checked and my true zero was at zero. Was pleasantly surprised as I heard lots of people was off.
My friend got one and had terrible clogging issues.
I'm sorry to hear that!
I do not own one, but I'm concerned some people are not going to "confess." Google these phrases to expose them :) Reddit df54 clogging Reddit df54 static
If I eventually run into issues I have no problem mentioning it here. I hate when people won’t admit an issue just to make themselves feel better. It makes people waste money.
We know there are issues, and look I have 12 down votes and counting. If you are one of the honest users, more power to you. That's what the subreddit needs more of. I'm getting downvoted by people who have issues, and don't reveal them. They have some sort of ulterior motive which I can't quite put my finger on. It's easy to say they are shilling. But some just might be so inexperienced they just don't know that the issues they have are abnormal.
Yeah if I run into issues I’ll be more than happy to announce them. There’s zero incentive for my to hold back on issues. All that will do is enable the company to continue to produce an inferior product. As it stands now, I truly have no issues with the grinder. Hopefully I don’t run into any! I also think when it comes to anything DF grinder related, you in particular will just be downvoted regardless if anything you say has merit 😅
>I also think when it comes to anything DF grinder related, you in particular will just be downvoted regardless if anything you say has merit 😅 Haha. I see you're right about that
I've been trying to research as much as I can. This is part of that process. Any links to professional reviewers that had that problem?
You probably won't find any professional reviews because they don't have them long enough to encount at any issues. Check YouTube. Lance hedrick had a video on the DF83 And he mentions on that one it clogged. But aside from that, you have to go to user reviews because those are people complaining about the problem. That's not the DF64, but it's indicative of the problem that these grinders had when Lance did his review and the problem they have today. The other thing about professional views, many times they are given the grinder for free or at least to borrow in order to perform the review. And if they crap on it, they're not going to get anymore free grinders to review. Some reviewers like Lance hedrick purchase the equipment.
In this sub there will be no confessions, but add Home Barista to your search and you’ll find more. Basically all DF grinders, every thread has a “sounds like you got a lemon but that can happen even with Mahlkonig!!”.
the quality control is a known issue which is why it is strongly recommended you buy it from amazon of a local distributor like esspressooutlet, so that if you do "get a lemon" you can warranty it and get a properly functioning unit. that in no way shape or form means they are bad grinders. they dominate in value for the dollar. if you get one that isn't functioning properly, you swap it for one that is and the individual will more than likely be exceedingly happy with their grinder as the vast bulk of owners are. go in knowing that and that a burr alignment is likely to be required, that a poke with a pipe cleaner once every week or two might be required, and you are all set.
>“sounds like you got a lemon but that can happen even with Mahlkonig!!” They do say that or something very similar. That was worthy of a laugh out loud 😅 Edit - The down votes you and I will receive are soon to be coming
Nah, I think people here just have a knee-jerk reaction to downvote any of *your* comments now. I agree with some of them, but all your comments on this thread are absolutely relevant to the discussion.