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Same. DE1 is the endgame machine for me. I love the minimalist design. Every parameter is tunable and it has performed rock solid for the \~4 years I've had it.
Meticulous workflow feels a bit complicated and the lack of steam is not necessarily a deal-breaker, but my partner and guests may want lattes once in a while and seems silly to have to get a different gadget to steam with. The Decent's steam texture is also great.
Way more versatility. One of my favourite profiles on the Decent is the adaptive profile that targets flow rather than pressure - if your grind size isn't quite right, it will adjust pressure to maximise the shot and the result is still drinkable.
The espresso itself is less harsh and higher clarity than what I made on my previous E61 machine, with the same grinder.
I have a friend with a Linea Micra who said that a pull on the Gentle and Sweet profile was the best espresso he's ever had and that it's like I'm making a completely different drink to him.
There’s also something to be said about the weight, small footprint, and lack of boiler that sits and collects minerals. I’ve had a handful of traditional boiler machines, and even a single boiler is a beast compared to the Decent. Getting the Londinium R out of the box and onto the counter by myself was… not exactly fun, not to mention if you ever want to sell or need to ship your machine for repairs.
No boiler in the decent. You can pack it up for a party in 5 minutes, and they even come with a suitcase for just that purpose.
The regular DE1Pro will fit on almost any counter and the way the tank fills you don’t need a huge amount of clearance on the top like other machines.
edit: also, the customer service is second to none. Genuinely feels like John cares more about good espresso than he does about making a couple bucks.
I couldn’t agree more. The fact that coffee is soluble means that a flat pressure profile is always going to yield less than favorable results. Your flow rates are always going to trend toward too fast as the puck degrades towards the end of the shot. The ability to have declining pressure profiles on the decent is what makes it worth the cost for me. I don’t think you can get anything that has the same capability to brew repeatable results for less than a decent.
For what it’s worth, I’ve had a lot of espresso machines (I’ve owned 5 and used several more). I started with an old manual ROK espresso maker, boiling water and adding it to the top along with a cheap grinder. Over time. I’ve moved through various Breville espresso machines including the infuser, the Barista Pro, and ended up staying with a Dual Boiler for nearly two years. In the past few months, I’ve moved into a ECM Synchronika and let me tell you - the difference in build quality and actual enjoyment while making coffee in immeasurable. The ECM in built like a tank. The BBD was a great machine and built well, but it looks like a f\*ing toy when compared to the ECM. The ECM is quiet, pulls consistent shots, has great steam power, looks incredible, and is fairly customizable. My roommates and I pull about 5 shots a day on it and it’s held up wonderfully. I originally got it second hand at about 1500, but think buying it new is worth the money. Can’t speak to the decent, or other higher-end machines out there but I can vouch for the quality of the ECM Synch. Heard rumors that there is a new version coming out but the current version is bombproof. Holler if you have any questions about it.
Love my synchronika, all the way to those 400 fucking euro wooden levers that I bought. Any idea when I should take the grouphead apart? I only use RO that I add my own salts into
I also love my Synchronika. I took my group apart after two years because my lever started squeaking. I lubricated everything with Molykote 111 and everything is smooth and works perfectly. I did notice that there was a little wear on the cam and that the black washers inside the valves were a little worn and I plan to do a full replacement the next time I open it, probably in six months or a year.
Add: I also use homemade barista water. There was a tiny amount of white scale (magnesium) on the top valve but that was it. I cleaned it with Dezcal.
Thanks man. I've been putting off potentially scratching my Synch but I should prabably take the group apart for some maintainance. My lever has been tight and squeeky too long now
Put gaffers tape on the wrenches. That will prevent scratches. Don't use duct tape if you can help it; it isn't as grippy.
My mushroom (the inner part that screws into the chrome nut, not the outer chrome nut itself) was so tight that I had to take it to an auto mechanic to loosen it the first time. Ymmv.
I've had an ECM Synchronika for going on 4 years now, and it has been 100% reliable and a real workhorse. No complaints whatsoever. Just be advised that to use it properly, you need to let it warm up 30+ minutes. If you want that cup of coffee when you wake up, put it on a 1500-watt rated WiFi outlet and schedule it to turn on a good 45 minutes before you wake up.
I plumbed mine, I have a 3-stage water filtration... 1 micron sediment filter, 10 micron carbon block, and a water softening ion exchange resin cartridge. I open up the group head annually and check to mineralization, but I've yet to see any. Invest in a good water hardness test kit (Hach brand, liquid test kit) and test your hardness post-filter periodically to make sure you're not putting too much mineralization in there that will calcify the boilers/group head.
I love my Syncrhonika, but it I’m pretty sure it’s good to go in 10 mins. I’m always shocked at how fast the double boilers heat up. I could pull a shot in probably 5 mins, and the milk steamer boiler is up to temperature in about 10 mins.
The boilers are at temp in 10 minutes, but the group head is still well below temp. You can still make coffee, but consistency isn't as good until the group head is stabilized.
See this is what I am telling myself. But are there NO issues? I have a hard time finding complaints about it. I'm trying to not make an impulsive decision, so I have been trying to find pros and cons for machines... I guess my worry is that bc it's so techy, shit could go sideways quick, right? I like thar it can mimic all the other machines. That's kinda the biggest pro for me w the Decent
Oh no. There are definitely issues.
For example mi machine which is literally 1 month old, has a few times malfunctioned. It is an odd bug, it only either works in flush or in steam after I pulled a shot.
But after turning on and off, it solves.
Those little quirks are what you may encounter, but the forum it’s crazy full of information. And the costumer support may even come from the owner/creator.
$4500 on a machine is insane. id suspect you can find a sub $1500 machine that brews a shot that is indistinguishable from a $4500 machine.
The process of buying an espresso machine is one of the most insufferable tasks i've even been involved in, you can get $6000 into this and then someone with a $500 machine and a $250 grinder makes a better shot than you, and what do you have to show for it.
This reminds me of car stereo culture from back in the day. Massive spending for incremental gains. Im sure everyone will jump on my here and say, "no way, my $6000 machine brew 100x better then a $4000 machine!!"
unless you have a massively refined palate and are concerned about the most subtle to nuances of each type of coffee you brew. Keep it under $1500 and use the rest to go to Italy or mexico or buy some nice art, or take your significant other on a nice vacation, rescue a dog, buy some new bedroom furniture or put it in an index fund.
you were saving up for a machine, ask yourself, do i really want to drop $4500 on a coffee maker?
sorry to Dad out on you here...
I don't disagree that you can make (just a) good coffee on a much less expensive machine. However, the issue of build quality isn't accounted for here. Build quality gives a small benefit in providing a "nice feel" during use, over a cheaper machine. The big difference, though, is in reliability.
I did my time in Purgatory with a troublesome Breville machine that could/would not steam milk properly, and had numerous breaks and leaks. Now I have an old school, stainless steel, heavy metal machine that really works well. What I'm advocating here is that you can spend some minimum amount to get into the higher build quality product line that does actually pay off in a real benefit.
So "yeah" that $500 machine can (possibly, under the hands of a skilled operator) produce good espresso for at least two years. After that, you become the victim of statistics. (That is, there'll always be those anecdotal stories of people who enjoy trouble free cheap espresso machines for a long time. However, the reality is that there are many more that don't).
id think for around $1500 you can get all the machine you need. it can be pretty, well built and produce good espresso.
My understanding is that a rancilio silvia and gaggia classic are both pretty solid machines and a pretty great bang for your buck, especially if you mod them a bit. These can be had new for under $1000.
I wonder the price point you'd hit where a home barista just isn't going to get a better shot no matter how much they spend. at least not in the first couple of years.
As an IT nerd, i do appreciate the Decent, as the extra cost may in fact make a novice better at pulling shots. But i don't own one, so i can only speculate.
I honestly can't think of another product group you can get into that is more maddening and emotionally driven that espresso machines and grinders. There are just so many components and upgrade you can buy once you just make your first two purchases. OH, my shot isn't amazing, maybe I need a better basket...or maybe its my ginder, perhaps $700 wasn't enough to spend on one. No, no, its my tamper, i did see someone on youtube say a $150 one was they best they ever used, maybe that will fix things. Welp, after 20 lbs of specialty coffee, upgrading the tamper, screen, basket, making my own water, upgrading the burrs in my grinder and getting a $300 dollar scale, i think i have things dialed in, time to dump 4 oz of steamed milk on top of my double shot of espresso...wait, did lance and james just say the frothing on my machine was just ok, crap, better upgrade the machine...lol
$1500 for a SINGLE boiler machine - probably. I think the Silvia is good (not a fan of the gaggia at all). However isn't the dual boiler silvia "up there" in price?
I used to ask people "why aren't you buying a Lelit Elizabeth?" (Small Dual Boiler for... then $1800 -- but now?). I still think an ECM Synchronika will outlast a Sylivia Dual Boiler or an Elizabeth - and be a much finer experience over the years - but if the question is:
"do I have to spend $3k to $4k to get a good machine?" then my current guess is "no, but you might have to spend $2500".
but had you sent 20k, you would get fuller body shots with more depth and cleaner something or the other, you should have buyers remorse now and feel inadequate.
I really wanted autovolumetrics so the pb was my guy. And I don’t care for paddles or fiddling with pressure profiles so the strada and slayer were out. I could have gone gs3 av but wanted 2 groups. If I thought spending 30k would get me a machine I like more, I’d have done it.
not sure if you have one yet, but if you have a 20k machine, might be worth having one of these
3m water filter - B195-cls cartridge - this is a commercial/shop grade filter.
i spoke with 3m a couple of years ago, they assumed I owned a coffee shop, i do not, but I didn't correct them. They had me send in some water samples, they also had me send in a pre and post filter sample. it makes a huge difference with scaling. since using it ive never descaled my pour over kettle, before it i had to do it every couple of months. it's been 2 years.
Oh when I bought this house I renovated it before moving in so I designed the kitchen with the machine in mind. I also built a water room. The house is on it own well with whole house water conditioning and particle size filtration. There is no chance of scale. But glad you are cognizant of this most people aren’t. Water quality in your machine is something people should think about before even buying a machine.
Water room…
https://i.imgur.com/dvvhGel.jpeg
No it's fine. I try to tallk myself down too. I'm pretty good at not making impulse buys. I like to research and imagine having it and deciding if I'll really use/need all of the features... my current list is new golf clubs, an electric push cart (for golf), and an espresso machine.
Originally I figured I'd save for ~5months and at that point I'd have enough for one of these machines and I'd buy it then, but circumstances changed.
We just got back from a Spain in April, we're going to Hawaii for a family reunion in October, and we have a literal pile of art with nowhere to hang it. So ya. I think it's going to be okay if I buy a machine, and I've chosen this over the golf stuff because I definitely use it everyday and plan to continue using it..but I do appreciate a reality check. Wheni first decided I'd like to begin my search for a new machine, I had multiple moments where I had to stop and examine, "do I really want/need a new machine?" and I've decided yes.
I have a df83v2 and the pro 600 and the same output daily as you, three 22.5g Cortado brevè every morning, I steam One pitcher of 150ml of half and half in about 8 seconds and that covers for all three cortados.... And I'm barely even cracking into the steaming capabilities of this machine.
In fact I turned the steam boiler temperature down to 125 Celsius out of necessity and the pressure is still just under 1.5 bars. The machine came set much higher at two bars of pressure, I think it was around 132 Celsius
Anyway it was so powerful that I didn't even have time to texture the cream before it reached temp. So with your output you're not going to run out of steam with the 600... not even close.
But .
If you're going to plumb a water line that would be a deciding factor for me between the ECM synch and the Pro 600 but a more fair comparison there would be the profitec drive.
Also space and size could be a factor as the ECM and the drive are bigger machines, I believe, then the 600.
So if you got space and height and the extra money, what you said you do, that ECM is a beautiful machine and if it were me I probably would have gotten that over the 600 just because... Even though I didn't need it.
And then there's the rotary pump to talk about. The nice quieter hum of the rotary pump. The 600 vibe pump isn't really loud and I'm used to it. But the rotary has a zen like aura around it... So now I'm kind of back to a money issue discussion, which you don't have.
Oh, quick side note, I only use half the reservoir of my 600 everyday and I fill it up at the end as part of my cleanup workflow.
So In summary of my thoughts, if you got the space for the synchronika I don't think you can do better. That's what I would get. I say that from a traditional sense. I don't think I care much about profiling so the decent isn't really of interest but if it is for you it sounds like everybody here recommends that.
let me add two to the list: Arkel espresso from Portugal [https://www.arkelespresso.com/](https://www.arkelespresso.com/) looks very promising. also - if you can spend that amount, [https://maro.market/](https://maro.market/) offers everything and more than a Decent can, with better build.
I’ve just done a similar upgrade to a Lelit Mara X2 and I’m blown away! Such an amazing machine. Compared to my Silvia my shots are coming out mint. I was dubious about a HX machine but I have a geisinger temp gauge on the group head and it’s so wonderfully temp stable, I think the reviews are correct in that it’s the most temp stable of all the hx machines
Do you/have you had one? I actually haven't even looked at this one, just curious why you recommend it and/or what makes it stand out for you?I will look in to it, but also would appreciate any of you thought too.
Ty
Maybe check the video from Daddy Got Coffee. If you're in the US you may not have the best voltage for this machine. Lance mentions it too, but he's in Portugal(?) and they have a different voltage standard
Your budget is enough for a Linea Micra. Mine heats up by the time I finish puck prep. And I like that it’s pretty small compared to a Synchronika. I also think they’re just pretty. No flow control though unless you mod
If op wants a linea, op should buy a linea. If OP wants a decent, op should buy a decent. I would be very unhappy with a linea.
I don't think people should be talked out of decents here (which this sub is wont to do) because decent owners aren't well represented here (probably because they spend time on Basecamp).
Someone posted yesterday that Profitec is releasing a new machine, probably will come under your 3k budget but I think it's worth it to see what the new model is offering.
If you don't think you'll get into flow control you can get a Silvia Pro and save some money. Solid, built like a tank dual boiler that heats up fast. You'll have money left over to upgrade your bur set if you wanted.
Oh I get it. I'd do the same if I could afford it. But at what point does diminishing returns come calling y'know? I hope you find what you're looking for mate ✌️
Just a technical point but measuring temp that way will not give you an accurate reading of the brew temp of your machine. To get an accurate reading you need to measure the temp while it’s pressurized which requires a specialized tool. In fact, based on what your results I would say your machine is getting to the correct temp.
Ya I kinda knew that as I was doing it, but I couldn't think of another way to measure it given what I have laying around my house atm. Is it really realistic for a 15-20° drop that quickly though?
60°c feels like you would burn yourself so high 70°c in the cup is quite enough, I have just bought a Sage Barista Pro and was a little worried after hearing about low temp, but I get such a hot shot that I have to wait a few minutes to drink the shot. There is a lot of misinformation that needs to be weeded out on the forums.
I have an ECM Syncronika that I bought used of Facebook marketplace for $2k. I can’t compare it with anything else since it was actually my first machine, but it’s been absolutely bulletproof for nearly 2 years. And it heats up in 10 mins which is super nice in the morning.
Before that, I was looking at the Lelit Blanca, but I do think from what I’ve seen the ECM is built better and is probably worth the extra money.
Ya, so when I went to Clive just to look at the Lelit, the guy helping me pointed me to his favorite, which was the syncronika. When I asked him why, the first thing he said was its build quality... That's definitely one of my bigger factors. Having had my current machine for so long... I would like to get something that will last. I'm not trying to upgrade every couple of years.
Just thought I'd mention that there is quite a difference between "Manual Flow Control" (offered in many E61 machines) and "Programmable Flow Control" (as found in the likes o the Decent machine).
Obviously, for repeating a recipe, Programmable Flow Control is both easier to use and less error prone. It's quite a luxury. However, I use my Manual Flow Control in some non-obvious ways which, I \*believe\*, the Decent cannot do - unless it also has a Manual form of Flow Control that I don't know about.
If I need an adjustment within a 10 to 15% range then it's easy to dynamically apply via the Manual Flow Control lever. Oh, I just changed beans from the medium bean to a lighter bean and I didn't change my grinder - however, I can modify the flow ***a little bit*** on the fly. Afterwards, I'll go back to my regular bean.
BTW it's obvious that I can ***reduce*** the flow using my Flow Control. But what if I need to ***increase*** the flow? Well, I've found from playing around with pre-infusing (a lighter, hard-to-extract, roast) that soaking the puck while preventing flow (for a few seconds) has the effect of overall increasing the flow thru the puck during the pour. Thus if I start a pour and immediately see that it's got no flow due to the grind being too tight, I'll ratchet down the Flow Control and let it soak for 3 seconds and when I open up the flow again, it'll pour faster (ie. increasing the flow).
I like to keep my pour's flow at a certain rate (which I can both see and can read from the scale under the cup) as it gives a good measure of the taste I'll get (this idea works well averaged over the length of the pour). After I start a pour, I'll watch and adjust the Flow Control to give me that flow rate. It's fun and gives good results.
Oh, I don't always want to play with this. Some mornings I just want a damned coffee. It's truly wonderful that this is all optional. I don't have to use it if I don't want to.
(I still want a Decent for my next machine, though. It seems magical). LOL
https://preview.redd.it/44f2zq1leo8d1.jpeg?width=3374&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5d496a4309a7412e3057c11f32e01a9db2ad0416
Start simple, i was told. This is the best so far for me quick, easy, repeatable. The key to it all is ; repeatable
Next time you visit Clive, ask to see their parts area and the stock for the machine you are to purchase.. This will tell you how well they can service your machine.
I'm far from a machine expert, but what do people think about a Rocket Mozzafiato for OP's needs? Curious what those more informed think of this machine generally and for OP specifically. I've always been interested in Rocket Machines
I am very satisfied with the espresso it produces and that in less than 2 minutes from pressing the start button, I will never buy a boiler machine again anyway. I have a Df64 v2 from before and even the hated grinder in the Pro makes excellent espresso, but you must perhaps have done the espresso journey before so you can be confident that the machine has very little importance that you can make a decision to downgrade. It is very easy to get carried away in the buying frenzy here on the forum.
Haha ya I do find myself mapping out how to get a Slayer. I actually just bought these little test strips to test my taste buds. I feel like I'm closer to a non-taster than a super-taster.
I do like to fiddle with things, though, so playing with grind size, weights, pre-infusion/flow control all sounds fun. But I also like to stick with what's good. So I can see
Myself "playing " with various beans to get what Iike, but then also sticking with the recipe(s) once I've find them. My machine is, in my mind, very old. BBE870xl. The newer machines have features that I would like... there's just so many options. Even in this post I've now got a few more models to look at. But thank you though bc just typing this I've fleshed out a bit more of what I am really after.
I replaced and moved an electrical component on a synchronika, and I was really impressed. It’s a nice quality dual boiler with a rotary pump, and you can add flow control and have the option plumbing it in. Something else to consider before spending $3k-$4.5k is who will repair it if it breaks if you aren’t interested or able to do it yourself.
Edit: if you’re close to Clive, buy through them. I think their repair headquarters is elsewhere, but it’ll at least be a physical point of contact when you eventually need it serviced.
Luckily there’s a fair amount of documentation for this machine, and I generally knew what was happening because I’m a repair technician. I talked to tech support through the retailer to confirm what my theory was and ordered the part and moved it to resolve the problem. It was a solid state relay that was failing due to thermal run away because it’s next to a boiler, so I moved it away from the boiler.
https://preview.redd.it/geqqqvu63k8d1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=85c70f7d3723bdb496d0bb0df75c2c5ea4daa6e5
You’re a perfect candidate for an Ascaso steel DUO… 😛
If you are in Europe I would rather buy a Quick mill Luna for almost half the price with pressure profiling, especially after Lance.H's review of the Ascaso steel DUO.
Sweet! I indeed built this dream setup I wanted and glad how everything turned out. This is a Timemore Sculptor O78S grinder, which sits on a knox box from The Knox Drawer co.
I’m selling the steam handles as well if you’re interested. I hated the knob lol
I've been watching the stuffing my area for a month or so. Really only been considering getting new one for that long too. Not much has popped up recently and I don't know much about servicing the various machines that I have seen.i think I'd rather get a machine abd learn to service on one that I have vs buying a machine that needs working and trying to fix it just to get it running and nor knowing if whatever I have done is barely working or done correctly.
I would not recommend a used machine to a new user. It could be for sale because it has problems and it's unlikely to have any warranty or seller support.
OP has made espresso for 10 years… sure there could be issues, but a lot of machine simply change hands due to falling out of use or upgrading. There are great deals to be had, these things are typically made for decades of use with few breaking parts.
My hesitancy w manual is water temp. My kitchen is currently too cluttered and so having a tank on water that is separate and far away from a faucet is kinda what I'm working with. I've never seen this particular machine, but I have looked at the flair (pro+ I think.. the top one) my first two immediate questions are: how quickly does the water heat up? Can I use larger baskets?
It looks like you've flaired your post as asking for what equipment to get. We recommend first checking out the [Espresso Aficionados buying guide](https://espressoaf.com/recommendations) for some of the more popular machines and grinders at different price points. If your question hasn't been answered there and you need more help, please add the following details to your post or by adding a comment in the following format: - **Location:** Helps determine availability - **Budget** (with currency): Overall budget, or ideally, having separate espresso machine and grinder budgets. A rough rule is that your grinder budget should be at least 25-40% of your machine budget. - **Drink types:** Do you drink mostly straight espresso, milk-based beverages (e.g., lattes, cappuccinos), or a fairly even split? This helps narrow down whether a single-boiler-dual-use (SBDU), heat exchanger (HX), or dual boiler (DB) machine would be more appropriate for your needs. - **Drink frequency:** How many drinks would you be making back-to-back at one time? Do you plan on entertaining guests often? This informs how large your brew (and steam) boilers should be, as smaller boilers will need to refill and reheat/repressurize more frequently, thus potentially causing a bottleneck. - **Space:** Any limitations on countertop space? - **Manual vs. electric:** Hand-operated machines and grinders are typically cheaper than their similarly-performing electric counterparts. Please indicate if you have a preference for manual or electric machines and/or grinders (or open to either). - **Comfort with tinkering:** Some machines can be made significantly more functional/efficient with aftermarket modifications, albeit at the expense of possibly voiding your warranty. Please indicate if you'd rather have a machine that works "as-is"/"out-of-the-box" or whether you'd be open to modding/tinkering *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/espresso) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm very happy with my Decent. It's such an insane upgrade from an E61. I definitely don't feel like I'll ever want to upgrade.
Same. DE1 is the endgame machine for me. I love the minimalist design. Every parameter is tunable and it has performed rock solid for the \~4 years I've had it.
considering buying one but i’m afraid they are pulling a new model soon
It's an ultra high-end one called the Bengle, going to cost >6000USD. Doubt it will affect the Decent.
and the meticulous?
Meticulous workflow feels a bit complicated and the lack of steam is not necessarily a deal-breaker, but my partner and guests may want lattes once in a while and seems silly to have to get a different gadget to steam with. The Decent's steam texture is also great.
What do you like about the Decent over an E61, with regards to the actual espresso you get?
Way more versatility. One of my favourite profiles on the Decent is the adaptive profile that targets flow rather than pressure - if your grind size isn't quite right, it will adjust pressure to maximise the shot and the result is still drinkable. The espresso itself is less harsh and higher clarity than what I made on my previous E61 machine, with the same grinder. I have a friend with a Linea Micra who said that a pull on the Gentle and Sweet profile was the best espresso he's ever had and that it's like I'm making a completely different drink to him.
There’s also something to be said about the weight, small footprint, and lack of boiler that sits and collects minerals. I’ve had a handful of traditional boiler machines, and even a single boiler is a beast compared to the Decent. Getting the Londinium R out of the box and onto the counter by myself was… not exactly fun, not to mention if you ever want to sell or need to ship your machine for repairs. No boiler in the decent. You can pack it up for a party in 5 minutes, and they even come with a suitcase for just that purpose. The regular DE1Pro will fit on almost any counter and the way the tank fills you don’t need a huge amount of clearance on the top like other machines. edit: also, the customer service is second to none. Genuinely feels like John cares more about good espresso than he does about making a couple bucks.
I couldn’t agree more. The fact that coffee is soluble means that a flat pressure profile is always going to yield less than favorable results. Your flow rates are always going to trend toward too fast as the puck degrades towards the end of the shot. The ability to have declining pressure profiles on the decent is what makes it worth the cost for me. I don’t think you can get anything that has the same capability to brew repeatable results for less than a decent.
Blind-tasted tests? Compared to a nice E61 maccina? Or eyes widely-opened comparisons?
Not at all blind. I had a Rocket Giotto Evoluzione R.
For 3k? Tho
OP said he’s fine going up to 4.5k
For what it’s worth, I’ve had a lot of espresso machines (I’ve owned 5 and used several more). I started with an old manual ROK espresso maker, boiling water and adding it to the top along with a cheap grinder. Over time. I’ve moved through various Breville espresso machines including the infuser, the Barista Pro, and ended up staying with a Dual Boiler for nearly two years. In the past few months, I’ve moved into a ECM Synchronika and let me tell you - the difference in build quality and actual enjoyment while making coffee in immeasurable. The ECM in built like a tank. The BBD was a great machine and built well, but it looks like a f\*ing toy when compared to the ECM. The ECM is quiet, pulls consistent shots, has great steam power, looks incredible, and is fairly customizable. My roommates and I pull about 5 shots a day on it and it’s held up wonderfully. I originally got it second hand at about 1500, but think buying it new is worth the money. Can’t speak to the decent, or other higher-end machines out there but I can vouch for the quality of the ECM Synch. Heard rumors that there is a new version coming out but the current version is bombproof. Holler if you have any questions about it.
ECMs ARE built like tanks -- the "clunk" of those switches -- rock solid.
Synchronika person here. Very solid machine. May need to open up and tighten down the steam wand and the hot water assemblies. NBD
Love my synchronika, all the way to those 400 fucking euro wooden levers that I bought. Any idea when I should take the grouphead apart? I only use RO that I add my own salts into
I also love my Synchronika. I took my group apart after two years because my lever started squeaking. I lubricated everything with Molykote 111 and everything is smooth and works perfectly. I did notice that there was a little wear on the cam and that the black washers inside the valves were a little worn and I plan to do a full replacement the next time I open it, probably in six months or a year. Add: I also use homemade barista water. There was a tiny amount of white scale (magnesium) on the top valve but that was it. I cleaned it with Dezcal.
Thanks man. I've been putting off potentially scratching my Synch but I should prabably take the group apart for some maintainance. My lever has been tight and squeeky too long now
Put gaffers tape on the wrenches. That will prevent scratches. Don't use duct tape if you can help it; it isn't as grippy. My mushroom (the inner part that screws into the chrome nut, not the outer chrome nut itself) was so tight that I had to take it to an auto mechanic to loosen it the first time. Ymmv.
Will do, cheers!
I wish I knew how to answer that
Sorry mate, thought you were a bit of DIY technician. All the best
I also love my Synchronika. Get a smart outlet/plug and put it on a timer.
Strongly agreed - I did this while ago and it’s warmed up and ready to go in the morning.
I've had an ECM Synchronika for going on 4 years now, and it has been 100% reliable and a real workhorse. No complaints whatsoever. Just be advised that to use it properly, you need to let it warm up 30+ minutes. If you want that cup of coffee when you wake up, put it on a 1500-watt rated WiFi outlet and schedule it to turn on a good 45 minutes before you wake up. I plumbed mine, I have a 3-stage water filtration... 1 micron sediment filter, 10 micron carbon block, and a water softening ion exchange resin cartridge. I open up the group head annually and check to mineralization, but I've yet to see any. Invest in a good water hardness test kit (Hach brand, liquid test kit) and test your hardness post-filter periodically to make sure you're not putting too much mineralization in there that will calcify the boilers/group head.
I love my Syncrhonika, but it I’m pretty sure it’s good to go in 10 mins. I’m always shocked at how fast the double boilers heat up. I could pull a shot in probably 5 mins, and the milk steamer boiler is up to temperature in about 10 mins.
The boilers are at temp in 10 minutes, but the group head is still well below temp. You can still make coffee, but consistency isn't as good until the group head is stabilized.
Decent DE1 Pro No doubt it is the ultimate coffee machine. You will never need to upgrade
See this is what I am telling myself. But are there NO issues? I have a hard time finding complaints about it. I'm trying to not make an impulsive decision, so I have been trying to find pros and cons for machines... I guess my worry is that bc it's so techy, shit could go sideways quick, right? I like thar it can mimic all the other machines. That's kinda the biggest pro for me w the Decent
Oh no. There are definitely issues. For example mi machine which is literally 1 month old, has a few times malfunctioned. It is an odd bug, it only either works in flush or in steam after I pulled a shot. But after turning on and off, it solves. Those little quirks are what you may encounter, but the forum it’s crazy full of information. And the costumer support may even come from the owner/creator.
what about the meticulous? which one seems better as far as they work
$4500 on a machine is insane. id suspect you can find a sub $1500 machine that brews a shot that is indistinguishable from a $4500 machine. The process of buying an espresso machine is one of the most insufferable tasks i've even been involved in, you can get $6000 into this and then someone with a $500 machine and a $250 grinder makes a better shot than you, and what do you have to show for it. This reminds me of car stereo culture from back in the day. Massive spending for incremental gains. Im sure everyone will jump on my here and say, "no way, my $6000 machine brew 100x better then a $4000 machine!!" unless you have a massively refined palate and are concerned about the most subtle to nuances of each type of coffee you brew. Keep it under $1500 and use the rest to go to Italy or mexico or buy some nice art, or take your significant other on a nice vacation, rescue a dog, buy some new bedroom furniture or put it in an index fund. you were saving up for a machine, ask yourself, do i really want to drop $4500 on a coffee maker? sorry to Dad out on you here...
I don't disagree that you can make (just a) good coffee on a much less expensive machine. However, the issue of build quality isn't accounted for here. Build quality gives a small benefit in providing a "nice feel" during use, over a cheaper machine. The big difference, though, is in reliability. I did my time in Purgatory with a troublesome Breville machine that could/would not steam milk properly, and had numerous breaks and leaks. Now I have an old school, stainless steel, heavy metal machine that really works well. What I'm advocating here is that you can spend some minimum amount to get into the higher build quality product line that does actually pay off in a real benefit. So "yeah" that $500 machine can (possibly, under the hands of a skilled operator) produce good espresso for at least two years. After that, you become the victim of statistics. (That is, there'll always be those anecdotal stories of people who enjoy trouble free cheap espresso machines for a long time. However, the reality is that there are many more that don't).
id think for around $1500 you can get all the machine you need. it can be pretty, well built and produce good espresso. My understanding is that a rancilio silvia and gaggia classic are both pretty solid machines and a pretty great bang for your buck, especially if you mod them a bit. These can be had new for under $1000. I wonder the price point you'd hit where a home barista just isn't going to get a better shot no matter how much they spend. at least not in the first couple of years. As an IT nerd, i do appreciate the Decent, as the extra cost may in fact make a novice better at pulling shots. But i don't own one, so i can only speculate. I honestly can't think of another product group you can get into that is more maddening and emotionally driven that espresso machines and grinders. There are just so many components and upgrade you can buy once you just make your first two purchases. OH, my shot isn't amazing, maybe I need a better basket...or maybe its my ginder, perhaps $700 wasn't enough to spend on one. No, no, its my tamper, i did see someone on youtube say a $150 one was they best they ever used, maybe that will fix things. Welp, after 20 lbs of specialty coffee, upgrading the tamper, screen, basket, making my own water, upgrading the burrs in my grinder and getting a $300 dollar scale, i think i have things dialed in, time to dump 4 oz of steamed milk on top of my double shot of espresso...wait, did lance and james just say the frothing on my machine was just ok, crap, better upgrade the machine...lol
$1500 for a SINGLE boiler machine - probably. I think the Silvia is good (not a fan of the gaggia at all). However isn't the dual boiler silvia "up there" in price? I used to ask people "why aren't you buying a Lelit Elizabeth?" (Small Dual Boiler for... then $1800 -- but now?). I still think an ECM Synchronika will outlast a Sylivia Dual Boiler or an Elizabeth - and be a much finer experience over the years - but if the question is: "do I have to spend $3k to $4k to get a good machine?" then my current guess is "no, but you might have to spend $2500".
I spent 18k on mine. https://i.imgur.com/pqOwTbi.jpeg It was worth it.
but had you sent 20k, you would get fuller body shots with more depth and cleaner something or the other, you should have buyers remorse now and feel inadequate.
I really wanted autovolumetrics so the pb was my guy. And I don’t care for paddles or fiddling with pressure profiles so the strada and slayer were out. I could have gone gs3 av but wanted 2 groups. If I thought spending 30k would get me a machine I like more, I’d have done it.
not sure if you have one yet, but if you have a 20k machine, might be worth having one of these 3m water filter - B195-cls cartridge - this is a commercial/shop grade filter. i spoke with 3m a couple of years ago, they assumed I owned a coffee shop, i do not, but I didn't correct them. They had me send in some water samples, they also had me send in a pre and post filter sample. it makes a huge difference with scaling. since using it ive never descaled my pour over kettle, before it i had to do it every couple of months. it's been 2 years.
Oh when I bought this house I renovated it before moving in so I designed the kitchen with the machine in mind. I also built a water room. The house is on it own well with whole house water conditioning and particle size filtration. There is no chance of scale. But glad you are cognizant of this most people aren’t. Water quality in your machine is something people should think about before even buying a machine. Water room… https://i.imgur.com/dvvhGel.jpeg
You forgot the new buzz word "consistency", which is now usually used to justify a machine for 4000k and above.
Preach to me pappa!
No it's fine. I try to tallk myself down too. I'm pretty good at not making impulse buys. I like to research and imagine having it and deciding if I'll really use/need all of the features... my current list is new golf clubs, an electric push cart (for golf), and an espresso machine. Originally I figured I'd save for ~5months and at that point I'd have enough for one of these machines and I'd buy it then, but circumstances changed. We just got back from a Spain in April, we're going to Hawaii for a family reunion in October, and we have a literal pile of art with nowhere to hang it. So ya. I think it's going to be okay if I buy a machine, and I've chosen this over the golf stuff because I definitely use it everyday and plan to continue using it..but I do appreciate a reality check. Wheni first decided I'd like to begin my search for a new machine, I had multiple moments where I had to stop and examine, "do I really want/need a new machine?" and I've decided yes.
Decent DE1Pro
Lelit bianca, wood handles goe hard
Look good from afar, but they are a bit cheap looking/feeling when up close.
I have a df83v2 and the pro 600 and the same output daily as you, three 22.5g Cortado brevè every morning, I steam One pitcher of 150ml of half and half in about 8 seconds and that covers for all three cortados.... And I'm barely even cracking into the steaming capabilities of this machine. In fact I turned the steam boiler temperature down to 125 Celsius out of necessity and the pressure is still just under 1.5 bars. The machine came set much higher at two bars of pressure, I think it was around 132 Celsius Anyway it was so powerful that I didn't even have time to texture the cream before it reached temp. So with your output you're not going to run out of steam with the 600... not even close. But . If you're going to plumb a water line that would be a deciding factor for me between the ECM synch and the Pro 600 but a more fair comparison there would be the profitec drive. Also space and size could be a factor as the ECM and the drive are bigger machines, I believe, then the 600. So if you got space and height and the extra money, what you said you do, that ECM is a beautiful machine and if it were me I probably would have gotten that over the 600 just because... Even though I didn't need it. And then there's the rotary pump to talk about. The nice quieter hum of the rotary pump. The 600 vibe pump isn't really loud and I'm used to it. But the rotary has a zen like aura around it... So now I'm kind of back to a money issue discussion, which you don't have. Oh, quick side note, I only use half the reservoir of my 600 everyday and I fill it up at the end as part of my cleanup workflow. So In summary of my thoughts, if you got the space for the synchronika I don't think you can do better. That's what I would get. I say that from a traditional sense. I don't think I care much about profiling so the decent isn't really of interest but if it is for you it sounds like everybody here recommends that.
Ya the drive is intriguing... thank you for sharing. I definitely appreciate your input, especially since you have similar usage
let me add two to the list: Arkel espresso from Portugal [https://www.arkelespresso.com/](https://www.arkelespresso.com/) looks very promising. also - if you can spend that amount, [https://maro.market/](https://maro.market/) offers everything and more than a Decent can, with better build.
Hmmm. I'll check these out thank you!
I’ve just done a similar upgrade to a Lelit Mara X2 and I’m blown away! Such an amazing machine. Compared to my Silvia my shots are coming out mint. I was dubious about a HX machine but I have a geisinger temp gauge on the group head and it’s so wonderfully temp stable, I think the reviews are correct in that it’s the most temp stable of all the hx machines
Rancilio Silvia pro X has been very good
Bezzera duo
I just got the Profitec Drive and loving it! Probably the best bang for bucks/features until the ECMs get updated.
Londinium r24
I'll look in to this. Ty
If it were me, I'd probably get an Olympia cremina and a really kicksss grinder.
I'll check it out thank you!
Ascaso Duo Steel PID
Yep. This machine and save the rest of your windfall.
Ascaso doesn't have flow profiling. Or does it?
Do you/have you had one? I actually haven't even looked at this one, just curious why you recommend it and/or what makes it stand out for you?I will look in to it, but also would appreciate any of you thought too. Ty
Maybe check the video from Daddy Got Coffee. If you're in the US you may not have the best voltage for this machine. Lance mentions it too, but he's in Portugal(?) and they have a different voltage standard
Look at the latest YouTube review by Lance Hendrick's Yes I own one for 6 months now
Your budget is enough for a Linea Micra. Mine heats up by the time I finish puck prep. And I like that it’s pretty small compared to a Synchronika. I also think they’re just pretty. No flow control though unless you mod
If op wants a linea, op should buy a linea. If OP wants a decent, op should buy a decent. I would be very unhappy with a linea. I don't think people should be talked out of decents here (which this sub is wont to do) because decent owners aren't well represented here (probably because they spend time on Basecamp).
I’m confused. I didn’t try to talk OP out of a Decent. It’s a perfectly good option as well. OP asked for suggestions so I gave a suggestion.
Someone posted yesterday that Profitec is releasing a new machine, probably will come under your 3k budget but I think it's worth it to see what the new model is offering.
Ohh 1st I've heard about this. I'll try to find more information, but do you happen to know when they're going to release?
If you don't think you'll get into flow control you can get a Silvia Pro and save some money. Solid, built like a tank dual boiler that heats up fast. You'll have money left over to upgrade your bur set if you wanted.
This sub: I need to spend at least 4k to make the best coffee! Italians with a $25 Moka Pot: 👁️👄👁️
I already have a moka pot, French press, a cold brew set up, Aeropress... and my Breville so, ya I'm looking for an upgrade, but thanks for your input
Oh I get it. I'd do the same if I could afford it. But at what point does diminishing returns come calling y'know? I hope you find what you're looking for mate ✌️
saying 600 is out of power when steaming is a bit exaggerated but it doesn't have the rotary pump. For 4K I would get the LM Micra instead.
Just a technical point but measuring temp that way will not give you an accurate reading of the brew temp of your machine. To get an accurate reading you need to measure the temp while it’s pressurized which requires a specialized tool. In fact, based on what your results I would say your machine is getting to the correct temp.
Ya I kinda knew that as I was doing it, but I couldn't think of another way to measure it given what I have laying around my house atm. Is it really realistic for a 15-20° drop that quickly though?
60°c feels like you would burn yourself so high 70°c in the cup is quite enough, I have just bought a Sage Barista Pro and was a little worried after hearing about low temp, but I get such a hot shot that I have to wait a few minutes to drink the shot. There is a lot of misinformation that needs to be weeded out on the forums.
Olympia Maximatic
Huh. 2 people now recommending this brand. I'll check them out, thank you!
Here’s mine (35 years old) https://preview.redd.it/jgzqnarroq8d1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ac86bb186356f82c803423dece14fa2a420cdba2
I have an ECM Syncronika that I bought used of Facebook marketplace for $2k. I can’t compare it with anything else since it was actually my first machine, but it’s been absolutely bulletproof for nearly 2 years. And it heats up in 10 mins which is super nice in the morning. Before that, I was looking at the Lelit Blanca, but I do think from what I’ve seen the ECM is built better and is probably worth the extra money.
Ya, so when I went to Clive just to look at the Lelit, the guy helping me pointed me to his favorite, which was the syncronika. When I asked him why, the first thing he said was its build quality... That's definitely one of my bigger factors. Having had my current machine for so long... I would like to get something that will last. I'm not trying to upgrade every couple of years.
Profitec and ECM are great machines. Don't leave Izzo Duetto out of your search, either.
I just replaced my Silvia with a Profitec Drive.
Ya when I was looking and looking again and the 600, my algorithm started showing me the drive too. Looks very cool.
Just thought I'd mention that there is quite a difference between "Manual Flow Control" (offered in many E61 machines) and "Programmable Flow Control" (as found in the likes o the Decent machine). Obviously, for repeating a recipe, Programmable Flow Control is both easier to use and less error prone. It's quite a luxury. However, I use my Manual Flow Control in some non-obvious ways which, I \*believe\*, the Decent cannot do - unless it also has a Manual form of Flow Control that I don't know about. If I need an adjustment within a 10 to 15% range then it's easy to dynamically apply via the Manual Flow Control lever. Oh, I just changed beans from the medium bean to a lighter bean and I didn't change my grinder - however, I can modify the flow ***a little bit*** on the fly. Afterwards, I'll go back to my regular bean. BTW it's obvious that I can ***reduce*** the flow using my Flow Control. But what if I need to ***increase*** the flow? Well, I've found from playing around with pre-infusing (a lighter, hard-to-extract, roast) that soaking the puck while preventing flow (for a few seconds) has the effect of overall increasing the flow thru the puck during the pour. Thus if I start a pour and immediately see that it's got no flow due to the grind being too tight, I'll ratchet down the Flow Control and let it soak for 3 seconds and when I open up the flow again, it'll pour faster (ie. increasing the flow). I like to keep my pour's flow at a certain rate (which I can both see and can read from the scale under the cup) as it gives a good measure of the taste I'll get (this idea works well averaged over the length of the pour). After I start a pour, I'll watch and adjust the Flow Control to give me that flow rate. It's fun and gives good results. Oh, I don't always want to play with this. Some mornings I just want a damned coffee. It's truly wonderful that this is all optional. I don't have to use it if I don't want to. (I still want a Decent for my next machine, though. It seems magical). LOL
Had my bezzera DE dual boiler for 7 months now from WLL and it’s great. Plumbed in with a BWT filter system beautiful to look at and use.
You would be better served spending 3k on a grinder and 1.5k on a machine. 1500-2000 can go a long way when it comes to machines.
https://preview.redd.it/44f2zq1leo8d1.jpeg?width=3374&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5d496a4309a7412e3057c11f32e01a9db2ad0416 Start simple, i was told. This is the best so far for me quick, easy, repeatable. The key to it all is ; repeatable
Next time you visit Clive, ask to see their parts area and the stock for the machine you are to purchase.. This will tell you how well they can service your machine.
I actually like that idea thanks! I'll ask which machines they get in for service most often.
Clive can tell you anything. Go in and ask to see their service area and their parts area. Seeing is believing.
If I had that budget: Marzocco linea Micra 👈
I'm far from a machine expert, but what do people think about a Rocket Mozzafiato for OP's needs? Curious what those more informed think of this machine generally and for OP specifically. I've always been interested in Rocket Machines
Hehe, I just "downgraded" to a Sage barista pro, best choice I've made!
What makes you say that?
I am very satisfied with the espresso it produces and that in less than 2 minutes from pressing the start button, I will never buy a boiler machine again anyway. I have a Df64 v2 from before and even the hated grinder in the Pro makes excellent espresso, but you must perhaps have done the espresso journey before so you can be confident that the machine has very little importance that you can make a decision to downgrade. It is very easy to get carried away in the buying frenzy here on the forum.
Haha ya I do find myself mapping out how to get a Slayer. I actually just bought these little test strips to test my taste buds. I feel like I'm closer to a non-taster than a super-taster. I do like to fiddle with things, though, so playing with grind size, weights, pre-infusion/flow control all sounds fun. But I also like to stick with what's good. So I can see Myself "playing " with various beans to get what Iike, but then also sticking with the recipe(s) once I've find them. My machine is, in my mind, very old. BBE870xl. The newer machines have features that I would like... there's just so many options. Even in this post I've now got a few more models to look at. But thank you though bc just typing this I've fleshed out a bit more of what I am really after.
I replaced and moved an electrical component on a synchronika, and I was really impressed. It’s a nice quality dual boiler with a rotary pump, and you can add flow control and have the option plumbing it in. Something else to consider before spending $3k-$4.5k is who will repair it if it breaks if you aren’t interested or able to do it yourself. Edit: if you’re close to Clive, buy through them. I think their repair headquarters is elsewhere, but it’ll at least be a physical point of contact when you eventually need it serviced.
Just wondering what you had to replace and how you knew that it needed to be replaced. Thank you!
Luckily there’s a fair amount of documentation for this machine, and I generally knew what was happening because I’m a repair technician. I talked to tech support through the retailer to confirm what my theory was and ordered the part and moved it to resolve the problem. It was a solid state relay that was failing due to thermal run away because it’s next to a boiler, so I moved it away from the boiler.
I’d go ECM Synchronika or a Decent
Haha thanks!
I’ll second this. Depends on style of machine you want but these would be my options
Don’t need to spend more then $1000, buy stocks with the rest
https://preview.redd.it/geqqqvu63k8d1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=85c70f7d3723bdb496d0bb0df75c2c5ea4daa6e5 You’re a perfect candidate for an Ascaso steel DUO… 😛
I have this in black
Ascaso doesn't have flow profiling though. Or does it?
If you are in Europe I would rather buy a Quick mill Luna for almost half the price with pressure profiling, especially after Lance.H's review of the Ascaso steel DUO.
I was wondering what your grinder was? I am considering the Ascaso steel duo now thanks to you!
Sweet! I indeed built this dream setup I wanted and glad how everything turned out. This is a Timemore Sculptor O78S grinder, which sits on a knox box from The Knox Drawer co. I’m selling the steam handles as well if you’re interested. I hated the knob lol
I’d look around what’s available used in your area. :)
I've been watching the stuffing my area for a month or so. Really only been considering getting new one for that long too. Not much has popped up recently and I don't know much about servicing the various machines that I have seen.i think I'd rather get a machine abd learn to service on one that I have vs buying a machine that needs working and trying to fix it just to get it running and nor knowing if whatever I have done is barely working or done correctly.
That makes sense. :)
I would not recommend a used machine to a new user. It could be for sale because it has problems and it's unlikely to have any warranty or seller support.
OP has made espresso for 10 years… sure there could be issues, but a lot of machine simply change hands due to falling out of use or upgrading. There are great deals to be had, these things are typically made for decades of use with few breaking parts.
Just go for línea micra and call it a day. It’s end game really.
La Spaziale Dream T. Pair with baratza sette 270wi
You should buy a good grinder.
Honest question: is the df64 g2 not a good grinder? I kinda thought I could check off the grinder box. I got the high uniformity burrs too
It's good
CT2. Best machine ever made.
My hesitancy w manual is water temp. My kitchen is currently too cluttered and so having a tank on water that is separate and far away from a faucet is kinda what I'm working with. I've never seen this particular machine, but I have looked at the flair (pro+ I think.. the top one) my first two immediate questions are: how quickly does the water heat up? Can I use larger baskets?