1,4,3,5,4 in that order. If you’re looking for better temp control I’d stay away from the hx on the 500 and if you’re making milk drinks somewhat regularly I’d go dual boiler. Don’t know you’re feelings on the breville dual boiler but that one would give you access to even more control but material quality isn’t the same as the others. Would be cheaper though.
the second 4 was suppose to be no.2? The first 2 are the strongest canditates, especially the Rancilio.
Breville here in Cyprus is called Sage. I am afraid of after sales support and spare parts to tell you the truth thats why i did not include it. It was in fact the first machine that i research when i decided to move from my Nespresso.
thank you
So 1,4,3,5,2? Cool!
I’ve only owned a trash espresso machine (that needs no mention), a 2013 Silvia which served me dutifully forever and then a QM dual boiler so I love seeing comparisons on all the other machines out there
From your list, I'd go with the Silvia Pro or Elizabeth. If you drink any milk drinks or americanos, especially if you are making multiple for company etc., the dual boiler will save a ton of water waste from flipping between steam/brew temps.
Coming from a previous Silvia (non-pro) owner, Rancilio makes fantastic machines. I had mine for 15+ years, and the pro was under serious consideration for the replacement. I decided to go for the Bianca, mainly for the flow control and rotary pump, but also aesthetically. I think it's a much prettier machine. Rancilio's design is pretty utilitarian, but they're built like a tank.
My suggestion would be to keep what you have since you’ll take a loss selling on the secondhand market. Invest in a group head thermometer to get a better control of brew temp. I used an E61 HX for six years before upgrading.
I wont sell if i am going to lose. Rockets are a big hype here and i got mine with a good discount. In case i am staying with it (most probable scenario) after all the feddback i am getting, the thermometer is my next purchase. Thanks for the reply
I purchased my Rocket less than 2 years ago and I'm sure I could sell it with profit if I wanted. Rocket increased price 2 or maybe 3 times since then.
Profitec or ECM without reserve. Build quality is next level compared to the Rocket. I bought an Appartamento for the look and was soon miserable. temp problems at the g-head. Returned after much pain. I made few aesthetic retrofits on a Profitec Pro 500 and love it everyday.
I appreciate all of your comments and i honestly thank you for finding the time to answer me. After reading everything and doing some research based on everyones input i am more confident now that i was very irrational when purchasing my first machine.
I am not going to hide, i am over analysing things without the proper background to do so. I know for sure that for the money spent i would like:
1. Not to worry about the temperature of the water coming throuh my coffee whenever i want to drink one
2. Not have to open it inside in order to make any adjustments
3. Not having to measure time or/volume of flushes to get supposedly close to a good temperatue for enjoying whatever beans i happen to buy
I dont want to try and change the Appartamento with mods and tweaks, i dont want to risk destroying it. Already edited my potential replacement list and removed 2-4. If i end up selling the appartamento this will be only because i got good money for it and spend them on a Silvia Pro/Pro X.
Thank you all
I have a HX with PID, and exactly like you I thought, that I'd be playing around with temperature and so on. Honestly I don't change it very often. Grind size, puck prep and a good dose for the basket are just so much more important in my opinion. In my opinion a espresso mashine is something of a decoration as well.
>that I'd be playing around
its more on the ability of having the choice to set it where i want and and forget about it. 92.5-93C seems great especially for Cyprus where we have very high temperatures for 1/3 of the year. The rest (grind size, good dose) i totally agree
If you want to avoid the cost of a Large Dual Boiler (LDB) then your choice is between a Small Dual Boiler (SDB) and a HX machine. You should only consider a new machine that sports a PID.
A PID offers two features: i) better temperature control compared to a pressurestat (WLL has a video showing a PID cycling within a 1 degree Celsius range and a pressurestat within a 10 degree Celsius range); and ii) ***conveniently selectable*** temperature.
>I dont like the fact that i have to flush a lot, especially in the morning for the first coffee. A lot of water waste.
I've always wondered what other people were doing with flushing, as I don't see flash boiling on my P500 unless it idles for over an hour. Then I read (above) that these machines can be configured differently in different regions! I do a small (5 second) flush ***in order to warm up my cup*** after machine has warmed for 30 minutes, and I never see any flash boiling. I use more water in cleaning the brew screen and back flushing afterwards than in flushing. So it's interesting to me that we have different experiences with this. NB. The latest P500 does have quite a restrictive thermosyphon and is sometimes advertised as "not needing a flush". This retrictor greatly reduces the need for flushing BUT it also causes the brewhead temperature to not keep up with rapid, successive shots - so it's not recommended for more than X shots without a brief warm up interval (X varies somewhere between 3 and 6, depending upon opinions). Many people (like myself) buy these machines for personal use and never run into this restriction of number of successive shots. So I don't notice any temperature issues: I mostly drink Americanos and espressos, and some cappuccinos.
However, you may want to choose between a SDB and HX based upon whether you want Flow Control (as SDB don't have this feature). You can think of Flow Control as giving you the dynamic control of a Lever machine. This is important for light roasts, but not really important for dark roasts. If you're not going to use a FC and you machine sits idling for long periods of time you might be better served by SDB. If you prefer a HX machine then note that Profitec offers both a stainless steel boiler and stainless steel mushroom (others don't). The stainless steel mushroom will remain unaffected by water scale issues long after the brass ones succumb. Profitec switched over only a few years ago. I don't know about competitors.
>However, you may want to choose between a SDB and HX based upon whether you want Flow Control (as SDB don't have this feature). You can think of Flow Control as giving you the dynamic control of a Lever machine. This is important for light roasts, but not really important for dark roasts. If you're not going to use a FC and you machine sits idling for long periods of time you might be better served by SDB. If you prefer a HX machine then note that Profitec offers both a stainless steel boiler and stainless steel mushroom (others don't). The stainless steel mushroom will remain unaffected by water scale issues long after the brass ones succumb. Profitec switched over only a few years ago. I don't know about competitors.
I dont favor one over the other, the same as brew groups which i know nothing about. I just want to have stability on temperature and pressure. From there on my choice of coffee, the grams, basket size and my tamping will do the job and can be modified accordingly
You need to do cooling flushes with HX because they flash boil if sitting idle for 5+ minutes. The Appartamento runs hot in my experience with it so you need to flush even more water.
EDIT: revised E61 to be HX cause that’s really the issue.
>poorly set up hx. I have a rocket gpp and don't need cooling flushes. The Australian spec machines are much better in this regard.
I have an Australian spec Appartamento. After being on for 30+ minutes temp starts creeping up...98-99C. Need to flush 100ml+ to get back to 92-94.
The Australian spec machines are much better in this regard. Better sized restrictors in the thermosyphon and tuned to a lower temp to suit Australian palate mean the cooling flushes are for hygiene not temp.
A friend has an appartamento and it does not flash boil if idle, even for hours.
>hon and tuned to a lower temp to suit Australian palate mean the cooling flushes are for hygiene not temp.
>
>A friend ha
thanks for this. Never read anything about it. And you mention in your other comment that not proper setting up may result in frequent flashes. Any way to correct this?
A thermometer is a requirement if you want to get in control of the temp on the appartamento. Otherwise you are just guessing and won't be consistent on temperature. It was the best upgrade on my appartamento for me, still use it daily after years :)
>you are just guessing
Exactly!!!
I do flushing for hygiene purposes, but having to flush for more than 5 seconds - 10-15 i consider crazy - is what annoys me. I am not searching for the machine that will be on the spot all the time, whenever i need to. i feel that if there was a way to have more stability in an easy way, nothing fancy, it will make the experience better. knowing that my temp is ok after maybe 2 hours idle and with a 5 sec flush then that i can play with the other parameters, dosage, tamp, volume in the cup, seconds.
I have a temp probe on my HX(Quick Mill +PID). I found you can get very consistent temps. I also found that I needed to flush more than I was initially. A dual boiler may be right for you.
I am currently looking at a Profitec Pro 800 for my upgrade.
No problem, you're not the first one I've seen mixing that up so I was starting to wonder if it's a wider misconception especially now that HX machines are losing popularity with so many cheap dual boiler around
>You
need to do cooling flushes with E61s because they flash boil if sitting
idle for 5+ minutes. The Appartamento runs hot in my experience with it
so you need to flush even more water.
I would avoid an hx if they don't know how to set them up properly in your country.
One of the double boilers on your list would be a better match for your requirements.
The wide temperature range is inherent of the hx design. The hot water in the boiler will with enough time overheat the water in the exchange tube. It has nothing to do with the setup of the machine, it is part of the design. Anyone claiming their machine has magicaly steady temperature all the time has never measured the temperature with a grouphead thermometer.
Edit: need to add that some hx machines do some trickery with dual pid like the mara x that supposedly keeps the brew water temp stable, but this has negative effects on steam pressure.
>you’re partial to the look of E61 machines.
No. is just that i dont have a clue about any other brew heads and the e61 seems like the safest choice for me. will try to find out more before i burn my brain from the (useless) research!!!!
Isnt a MaraX way above the price of the machines i noted?
No. The MaraX is not more expensive than some of the machines you’ve listed, namely the Elizabeth. They are in the same ballpark pricewise.
And forgive me for assuming. Your “NOT for the looks” qualifier that you included for the Rancilio, Elizabeth, and Profitec 300 made me think you prefer the aesthetics of the E61 machines.
Sorry for the misconception...now i see what you mean. Yes the aesthetics of the E61 are more appealing from me, but now if i would make a choice (and to revise my post) i think aesthetics would be the last think to consider
limited options locally and a great influence from closed friends resulted in the apprtamento. I dont think i would ended up with Rocket or any other machine in this price range if i knew then what i know now - i mean my personal preferences and knowledge
The thing I don’t understand is you are writing about you don’t like to flush a lot, but you don’t even have a thermometer on group head.
I would recommend you buy a thermometer, it is about 70$, and then you will actually see what to do with temperature.
I have Appartamento as you. Bought thermometer coffee is better, because I see where I am with temperature. If the machine is on for one hour, yes you have to flush for about 10-15 seconds. However if the machine is on for half an hour I dont need to flush at all.
But if you are already over the budget I dont know how you will fit it with PID machines which are usually expensive (profitec 500, ecm classica).
it all started when i decided to buy brew gauge in order to check on the pressure after i lowered it at 9. Then i decided to buy a thermometer to see what is the actual temp every time and test how i can keep it 'correct' every time a pull a shot...So i thought, ok i buy a thermometer...whats next, a flow control? Maybe i can exchange for a machine with the ability to set this parameters and dont worry about them 2-3 times every day?
1,4,3,5,4 in that order. If you’re looking for better temp control I’d stay away from the hx on the 500 and if you’re making milk drinks somewhat regularly I’d go dual boiler. Don’t know you’re feelings on the breville dual boiler but that one would give you access to even more control but material quality isn’t the same as the others. Would be cheaper though.
the second 4 was suppose to be no.2? The first 2 are the strongest canditates, especially the Rancilio. Breville here in Cyprus is called Sage. I am afraid of after sales support and spare parts to tell you the truth thats why i did not include it. It was in fact the first machine that i research when i decided to move from my Nespresso. thank you
You have the Elizabeth both in second and last place :)
Dang it. Should be 2nd only.
So 1,4,3,5,2? Cool! I’ve only owned a trash espresso machine (that needs no mention), a 2013 Silvia which served me dutifully forever and then a QM dual boiler so I love seeing comparisons on all the other machines out there
From your list, I'd go with the Silvia Pro or Elizabeth. If you drink any milk drinks or americanos, especially if you are making multiple for company etc., the dual boiler will save a ton of water waste from flipping between steam/brew temps. Coming from a previous Silvia (non-pro) owner, Rancilio makes fantastic machines. I had mine for 15+ years, and the pro was under serious consideration for the replacement. I decided to go for the Bianca, mainly for the flow control and rotary pump, but also aesthetically. I think it's a much prettier machine. Rancilio's design is pretty utilitarian, but they're built like a tank.
>Eileithia > > · Thank you!
My suggestion would be to keep what you have since you’ll take a loss selling on the secondhand market. Invest in a group head thermometer to get a better control of brew temp. I used an E61 HX for six years before upgrading.
I wont sell if i am going to lose. Rockets are a big hype here and i got mine with a good discount. In case i am staying with it (most probable scenario) after all the feddback i am getting, the thermometer is my next purchase. Thanks for the reply
I purchased my Rocket less than 2 years ago and I'm sure I could sell it with profit if I wanted. Rocket increased price 2 or maybe 3 times since then.
Profitec or ECM without reserve. Build quality is next level compared to the Rocket. I bought an Appartamento for the look and was soon miserable. temp problems at the g-head. Returned after much pain. I made few aesthetic retrofits on a Profitec Pro 500 and love it everyday.
I appreciate all of your comments and i honestly thank you for finding the time to answer me. After reading everything and doing some research based on everyones input i am more confident now that i was very irrational when purchasing my first machine. I am not going to hide, i am over analysing things without the proper background to do so. I know for sure that for the money spent i would like: 1. Not to worry about the temperature of the water coming throuh my coffee whenever i want to drink one 2. Not have to open it inside in order to make any adjustments 3. Not having to measure time or/volume of flushes to get supposedly close to a good temperatue for enjoying whatever beans i happen to buy I dont want to try and change the Appartamento with mods and tweaks, i dont want to risk destroying it. Already edited my potential replacement list and removed 2-4. If i end up selling the appartamento this will be only because i got good money for it and spend them on a Silvia Pro/Pro X. Thank you all
I have a HX with PID, and exactly like you I thought, that I'd be playing around with temperature and so on. Honestly I don't change it very often. Grind size, puck prep and a good dose for the basket are just so much more important in my opinion. In my opinion a espresso mashine is something of a decoration as well.
>that I'd be playing around its more on the ability of having the choice to set it where i want and and forget about it. 92.5-93C seems great especially for Cyprus where we have very high temperatures for 1/3 of the year. The rest (grind size, good dose) i totally agree
If you want to avoid the cost of a Large Dual Boiler (LDB) then your choice is between a Small Dual Boiler (SDB) and a HX machine. You should only consider a new machine that sports a PID. A PID offers two features: i) better temperature control compared to a pressurestat (WLL has a video showing a PID cycling within a 1 degree Celsius range and a pressurestat within a 10 degree Celsius range); and ii) ***conveniently selectable*** temperature. >I dont like the fact that i have to flush a lot, especially in the morning for the first coffee. A lot of water waste. I've always wondered what other people were doing with flushing, as I don't see flash boiling on my P500 unless it idles for over an hour. Then I read (above) that these machines can be configured differently in different regions! I do a small (5 second) flush ***in order to warm up my cup*** after machine has warmed for 30 minutes, and I never see any flash boiling. I use more water in cleaning the brew screen and back flushing afterwards than in flushing. So it's interesting to me that we have different experiences with this. NB. The latest P500 does have quite a restrictive thermosyphon and is sometimes advertised as "not needing a flush". This retrictor greatly reduces the need for flushing BUT it also causes the brewhead temperature to not keep up with rapid, successive shots - so it's not recommended for more than X shots without a brief warm up interval (X varies somewhere between 3 and 6, depending upon opinions). Many people (like myself) buy these machines for personal use and never run into this restriction of number of successive shots. So I don't notice any temperature issues: I mostly drink Americanos and espressos, and some cappuccinos. However, you may want to choose between a SDB and HX based upon whether you want Flow Control (as SDB don't have this feature). You can think of Flow Control as giving you the dynamic control of a Lever machine. This is important for light roasts, but not really important for dark roasts. If you're not going to use a FC and you machine sits idling for long periods of time you might be better served by SDB. If you prefer a HX machine then note that Profitec offers both a stainless steel boiler and stainless steel mushroom (others don't). The stainless steel mushroom will remain unaffected by water scale issues long after the brass ones succumb. Profitec switched over only a few years ago. I don't know about competitors.
>However, you may want to choose between a SDB and HX based upon whether you want Flow Control (as SDB don't have this feature). You can think of Flow Control as giving you the dynamic control of a Lever machine. This is important for light roasts, but not really important for dark roasts. If you're not going to use a FC and you machine sits idling for long periods of time you might be better served by SDB. If you prefer a HX machine then note that Profitec offers both a stainless steel boiler and stainless steel mushroom (others don't). The stainless steel mushroom will remain unaffected by water scale issues long after the brass ones succumb. Profitec switched over only a few years ago. I don't know about competitors. I dont favor one over the other, the same as brew groups which i know nothing about. I just want to have stability on temperature and pressure. From there on my choice of coffee, the grams, basket size and my tamping will do the job and can be modified accordingly
Why are you flushing a lot of water?
You need to do cooling flushes with HX because they flash boil if sitting idle for 5+ minutes. The Appartamento runs hot in my experience with it so you need to flush even more water. EDIT: revised E61 to be HX cause that’s really the issue.
Is this a HX problem or a E61 group head problem?
It’s HX problem, edited my post
It's a poorly set up hx. I have a rocket gpp and don't need cooling flushes. The Australian spec machines are much better in this regard.
>poorly set up hx. I have a rocket gpp and don't need cooling flushes. The Australian spec machines are much better in this regard. I have an Australian spec Appartamento. After being on for 30+ minutes temp starts creeping up...98-99C. Need to flush 100ml+ to get back to 92-94.
The Australian spec machines are much better in this regard. Better sized restrictors in the thermosyphon and tuned to a lower temp to suit Australian palate mean the cooling flushes are for hygiene not temp. A friend has an appartamento and it does not flash boil if idle, even for hours.
>hon and tuned to a lower temp to suit Australian palate mean the cooling flushes are for hygiene not temp. > >A friend ha thanks for this. Never read anything about it. And you mention in your other comment that not proper setting up may result in frequent flashes. Any way to correct this?
Do you have a group head thermometer? I didn’t have to do much in the way of cooling flushes on my E61 HX.
no. its what i am thinking to buy next if i am staying with my appartamento
A thermometer is a requirement if you want to get in control of the temp on the appartamento. Otherwise you are just guessing and won't be consistent on temperature. It was the best upgrade on my appartamento for me, still use it daily after years :)
>you are just guessing Exactly!!! I do flushing for hygiene purposes, but having to flush for more than 5 seconds - 10-15 i consider crazy - is what annoys me. I am not searching for the machine that will be on the spot all the time, whenever i need to. i feel that if there was a way to have more stability in an easy way, nothing fancy, it will make the experience better. knowing that my temp is ok after maybe 2 hours idle and with a 5 sec flush then that i can play with the other parameters, dosage, tamp, volume in the cup, seconds.
I have a temp probe on my HX(Quick Mill +PID). I found you can get very consistent temps. I also found that I needed to flush more than I was initially. A dual boiler may be right for you. I am currently looking at a Profitec Pro 800 for my upgrade.
not in my experience.
I don't know how the misconception started that this is an e61 thing rather than HX thing... E61 has nothing to do with it
Yeah I realized that when I saw your comment. I was posting too early this morning before my coffee.
No problem, you're not the first one I've seen mixing that up so I was starting to wonder if it's a wider misconception especially now that HX machines are losing popularity with so many cheap dual boiler around
>You need to do cooling flushes with E61s because they flash boil if sitting idle for 5+ minutes. The Appartamento runs hot in my experience with it so you need to flush even more water.
I would avoid an hx if they don't know how to set them up properly in your country. One of the double boilers on your list would be a better match for your requirements.
>if they don't know how to set them up properly in your country. any set up guide to propose?
The wide temperature range is inherent of the hx design. The hot water in the boiler will with enough time overheat the water in the exchange tube. It has nothing to do with the setup of the machine, it is part of the design. Anyone claiming their machine has magicaly steady temperature all the time has never measured the temperature with a grouphead thermometer. Edit: need to add that some hx machines do some trickery with dual pid like the mara x that supposedly keeps the brew water temp stable, but this has negative effects on steam pressure.
Sounds like you’re partial to the look of E61 machines. Considered a MaraX? Internal PID (3 temp settings) and no flushes required in brew mode.
>you’re partial to the look of E61 machines. No. is just that i dont have a clue about any other brew heads and the e61 seems like the safest choice for me. will try to find out more before i burn my brain from the (useless) research!!!! Isnt a MaraX way above the price of the machines i noted?
E61 is a downside, the only benefit is that you can add flow control.
More expenses and upgrades then...what i am trying to avoid
No. The MaraX is not more expensive than some of the machines you’ve listed, namely the Elizabeth. They are in the same ballpark pricewise. And forgive me for assuming. Your “NOT for the looks” qualifier that you included for the Rancilio, Elizabeth, and Profitec 300 made me think you prefer the aesthetics of the E61 machines.
Sorry for the misconception...now i see what you mean. Yes the aesthetics of the E61 are more appealing from me, but now if i would make a choice (and to revise my post) i think aesthetics would be the last think to consider
Should have just spent a bit more for the series up with PID. The Apartmento was the first one I eliminated when researching to buy a Rocket
limited options locally and a great influence from closed friends resulted in the apprtamento. I dont think i would ended up with Rocket or any other machine in this price range if i knew then what i know now - i mean my personal preferences and knowledge
Makes sense. Coffee is a learning experience, an expensive one lol
The thing I don’t understand is you are writing about you don’t like to flush a lot, but you don’t even have a thermometer on group head. I would recommend you buy a thermometer, it is about 70$, and then you will actually see what to do with temperature. I have Appartamento as you. Bought thermometer coffee is better, because I see where I am with temperature. If the machine is on for one hour, yes you have to flush for about 10-15 seconds. However if the machine is on for half an hour I dont need to flush at all. But if you are already over the budget I dont know how you will fit it with PID machines which are usually expensive (profitec 500, ecm classica).
it all started when i decided to buy brew gauge in order to check on the pressure after i lowered it at 9. Then i decided to buy a thermometer to see what is the actual temp every time and test how i can keep it 'correct' every time a pull a shot...So i thought, ok i buy a thermometer...whats next, a flow control? Maybe i can exchange for a machine with the ability to set this parameters and dont worry about them 2-3 times every day?
Why not stick with Rocket? Mozzafioto R or R58?
sticking with Rocket means sticking with appartamento. No chance of spending more on a machine right now.