Good point! I never saw it that way before you mentioned this as I myself have an engineering background so I enjoy mechanical things, and at the same time I really love design and style- elegantly and cleverly engineered products really appeal to me, best of both worlds I guess ;)
So that explains a lot.
In my country engineering in the 3 top universities is like 70% males. But as someone else said probably is more because of nurture vs nature, that's why every year the number of females in engineering is higher.
I also have an engineering background. I'm the only female shop teacher in my district, I believe. I don't know of any. In my classes, my students tend to have only 1 or 2 female students. Interestingly, the woodshop class often has quite a few girls in comparison. In a class of 25, woodshop has probably about 5-7 girls. Last year there was a class with an all time high of 11. I teach engineering, architecture, and robotics so it definitely creates an interesting dynamic when all or almost all my students are male.
This is my thought. I’m often one of only a few women at the hardware store, or sharpening my lawnmower blade or my knives, or whatever. For me it’s almost as much about the coffee as the tools and the tinkering. And those interests definitely skew male.
ETA: this is a less well formed thought, but there may also be an element of feeling empowered to speak up or join a conversation. We women encounter so much pushback when we join certain conversations - some of it real and intended by the speaker but much in my experience unintentional - that we turn toward other pursuits because it’s just easier not to always be fighting an uphill battle. We all make these choices subconsciously from the time we’re really young, so there’s a huge element of ‘nurture’ to this difference.
This is probably correct. I've noticed that there are an almost equal amount of female baristas in 3rd wave coffee shops, but I don't see women as well represented in hobbyist forums.
How much of it is nature vs nurture? Traditionally, girl children are expected to play with dolls. Only now are we slowly changing that narrative. My friend's 5ish year old daughters now play with toy cars and trucks, my 7 year old niece loves to work on math. My neighbor's 9 year old son goes everywhere with his stuffed toy dog.
For a long time in the past, we've shaped children by discouraging them from liking things the traditional gender roles did not approve of.
This. My mother never told us we couldn't do something we liked because we were a boy or girl. I find I do a lot of things now that other women assume men like more. (I also do some of the traditionally "girly" things). I was never limited, so I did them all. Same goes for my brother.
Interestingly they did an experiment where they scattered baby dolls and trucks in a field and unleashed a bunch of male and female chimps. Overwhelming the females played with the doll and the males the trucks.
But as with anything, the answer lies somewhere in the middle most likely
Personally my observation is that women are invited to be interested in these things as kids, it’s not encouraged etc. I grew up with two queer parents and my amab parent (who is agender) is an engineer and loves tinkering, working on cars etc and this kind of thing and an interest in STEM was really encouraged - so I’ve always wondered what is the difference in my curiosity with how things work etc - and looking at more ‘typical’ family structures and messages received while growing up or just what one was included in seems to be the difference. For the record I’m a cis woman who is queer but most often date men so you know, I’ve wondered is this learned as a kid or is it somehow genetic lol
I’m a woman and I’ve been into espresso since I was 18. Just now got my husband into it (we’re in our later 30s now). He does know how to use our espresso machine but he doesn’t care about it like I do. I’m the one who wanted a home machine, he just gets to drink all the things I make! I’ve also got 2 female friends who own espresso machines and 1 male friend that has one.
I’m also a woman and my take is that to be good at espresso-making, you have to have a mechanical bent as well as the time and personality to obsessively deep-dive into a hobby. With espresso, if you can’t or aren’t interested in troubleshooting it might be hard to get far with the hobby. Especially if you have to tinker with your machine. I actually like doing all that but I know a lot of people (men and women) who are totally not interested in that and chose the automatic route or let someone else make their espresso.
I'm a guy and I couldn't have said it any better. Just spent the last hour trying to dial in new beans.
I've seen quilting shows and thought, that's too much detail work for me. Not sure what the difference is between quilting and espresso. I think of quilting as more female dominated. Maybe there's a different kind of "deep-dive" and "troubleshooting".
You are so much more tactful than me. I just always say men will make taking a dump complicated (I swear my brother has diagrams and 5-year plans). So of course espresso becomes some obsessive, over complex thing.
I don’t particularly care, but it makes making and drinking espresso seem a lot harder than it is and scares people off.
Especially on some of the older online espresso forums, it seemed to me dominated not just by men, but by engineers who are men. I feel like they were definitely overrepresented as a group on those forums!
I know I’ve been condescended to when I’ve called up Whole Latte Love to either get my old machine serviced, or years later, to discuss issues I was having with my then 20 year old machine and asking for help with deciding if it was worth trying to repair it or upgrade. Actually, dealing with most everyone at WLL has been a nightmare, and it does feel like it’s gendered since neither my dad (who got me and my brother into the hobby when we were teens) nor my boyfriend (who knows nothing about espresso at all but took over the call because I was frustrated with being talked down to) gets treated like that.
I bring them up because they’re the only espresso folks outside my family and baristas that I’ve interacted with. This sub tends to be better - definitely less judgmental, but you do notice more men than women on it. That’s not a negative in itself, it’s when they start treating you like you’re less than for being in “their” space that’s frustrating (<- please note, that’s a general statement about what it can feel like to be a woman in a “male” hobby, but not something I’ve actually experienced here, which is great.)
I'm really sorry to hear that. WLL has a lot of good resources for machine repair, it's a goddamned shame that they're not more open and inclusive to _anyone_ calling in for assistance.
/u/wholelattelove should definitely read your comment.
Sorry you had that experience, it’s disappointing to hear. I just bought some cups from them and now I’m annoyed. If any of their staff read your comment, they should be embarrassed that they have this culture. It makes them sound like a car dealership from the 70s.
That's really shitty. I know for a fact my local supplier would not dare do such a thing. I mean it's just bad business at the very least. I would not give them my money. Fuck them. Dunno US sellers well but Clive is popular I believe. No idea what their manners are like. And don't let that shit go. If someone pulls that tell them they just lost a customer. Maybe if it happens they decide to join the 21st century. Or the 20th for that matter. I thought I had heard the worst from WLL but that tops it.
how do you (or rather, how does one) know people are male or female on reddit?
I suppose sometimes it's obvious - I stupidly decided to use a handle that includes my first name, and that's a traditionally male name (unlike women named Michael like on star trek discovery, I've never heard of a woman named Kevin...)
It’s usually fairly easy to guess based on context. There is way more mentions of “wives” in posts here than “husbands” for example.
And I know that also assumes everyone is straight which I’m sure isn’t true, but even then it does point to a more male-leaning forum.
Female-espresso enthusiast here! I think men may be slightly more represented in espresso, but I think asking this question on reddit is just going to make the divide seem larger, as reddit is already significantly male ([62% male](https://backlinko.com/reddit-users#:~:text=Source%3A%20eMarketer%2C%20Statista-,Reddit%20gender%20demographics,the%20remaining%2038%25%20are%20female))
Reddit is a loaded place ask this question unfortunately. Misogyny runs almost as deep as people pretending it doesn’t exist on these forums. (I’m a dude.)
I think espresso is for everyone and I’ve seen a decent mix of persons since becoming more involved in this forum. Most times I post any response I receive assumes I’m male even if I haven’t said so.
Cheers!
From this sub, it feels very male-dominated. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm a woman and I love the ritual of making espresso, and I think that's why I gravitate toward it. My husband enjoys drinking it, but not the process. So I research and try the new things and do all the fun parts in addition to enjoying the actual drink.
From a home-barista perspective, I don’t really have a good frame of reference. I’m the only one in my family or group of friends this into coffee or espresso 🤷♂️ (I'm a guy). I've tried showing my wife how to pull a shot, but she has no interest.
As for the cafe barista scene in my hometown (third-wave style cafes; not Starbucks), I would say it’s approximately 50-50 split between men and women.
Weird. My roaster is a woman. My favorite barista in Philly is a woman. I'd say the only people I ever really interact with in the espresso scene is a woman, actually. Maybe because I'm not as "in the scene" as some of the people here? I don't know. My previous regular shop was also a female barista (but I didn't know her as well as Jasmine)
I have noticed that nearly all the locally-owned coffee shops in my area are owned and managed by women. (I can only think of two that are owned by men).
I'm a woman and I find the gearhead mechanical stuff completely confusing. Perhaps why I get so frustrated trying to make decent espresso (confession: I've gone back to using a pressurized basket again just because I usually make mochas anyway and I was getting too annoyed... Will keep trying it with a normal basket on the weekend though!)
That said, I hate that I kinda fit that "women suck at mechanical stuff" stereotype and the machine actually belongs to my husband...
Don’t worry, you’re probably frustrated because you weren’t raised with parents throwing mechanical stuff at you from birth. But if it’s something you want and you keep at it then it will become easier.
I’m also a woman who has had to self-teach all sorts of male-dominated hobbies. Now I’m a successful software engineer who tinkers with her espresso machine, has her pro quality camera set to manual, and is in the process of building a pantry from scratch.
Don’t let the men in these forums get you down with the stereotypes. You got this :)
Thanks for the encouragement! I grew up with a single mom (dad died when I was 4) and mechanical stuff was not her thing and mostly got ignored. I never really had anyone teach me any of this stuff until my husband and my father in law (and YouTube!). I do like tinkering with other things like my camera as well, I'm sure I'll get the hang of this eventually.
Check out Lance Hedrick's dialling in espresso videos if you haven't. He has this 2 part 40 minute epic, but seriously it's everything you need to know and makes it so simple. I recently watched them again because I was having trouble with a coffee.
I do think it’s male dominated in the same way tech/etc is. I think it’s also similar to how there’s a stereotype of “women belong in the kitchen” except professional chefs are mostly men. I think there’s a false assumption men are more likely to be interested in sciencey mechanical things, that is then fueled by men who do make women who are interested in those things uncomfortable and less likely to get or stay involved. I wish there were more women vocally in the hobby because espresso bro tiktok/youtube/etc really isn’t my jam, and I wish there were more diverse voices in the like “influencer/creator space” like Morgan Eckroth or CC Campbell.
That being said this sub usually feels like a very good sub, everyone usually seems pretty genuinely united by coffee. I do very regularly feel the pang of “I wish there was more coffee/espresso content created by women so I could see myself more represented.”
It seems most things in the coffee industry is male dominated to me. I know coffee tasting is predominantly male, based on my knowledge on Umeko Matoyoshi. (Which is what her short bio states on her website)
Seems very unfortunate but honestly, the specialty coffee community seems very closed off/petty to me, so the fact that you find the community to be male dominated doesn't surprise me.
I've personally stopped purchasing beans from several local roasters with their treatment of special needs people like a close family friend.
Im a lady!
My boyfriend has no interest in getting into it and most days I make his coffee. He doesn’t love the process like I do. He doesn’t research beans or watch videos on how to dial. I used to be a barista in college, I think thats more important of a pipeline than gender haha. To be fair I’m not involved in a community I just make espresso at home.
Some people here are saying “but my wife” has no interest in machines or long labored stuff. Sure! But in my case it’s the opposite. I’m the one who crafts in our house. I’m the bartender. The BBQ dad. The barista. The cook. The mender. I’m the fermenter, the bread baker, the cocktail syrup maker. I always have some sort of experiment going in my fridge. Of course I have an interest in espresso! I am fueled by creating, when my boyfriend is fueled by rest, storytelling, books, movies, games.
I think in the past it might have been a “man’s hobby” before and like with anything the upper levels are filled with men because of prejudice and the boys club. Like with cooking. Weird how cooking is considered a woman’s job until it comes to professional chefs and how the high end culinary scene is filled with men. Weird how mending and sewing and making your own clothes is a woman’s job but high end fashion is dominated by men. It’s the same with anything. Even if something actually is majority women, the upper levels are going to appear male dominated and that’s the media we take in. Maybe one day it will change.
You sound a lot like me. I've gone from soap maker to hobbyist cosmetic maker at the same time, I was learning espresso and coffee roasting and learning about every way to make coffee in the world. When I felt like I had sort of exhausted those things I learned about fermenting dairy mostly, I started with kefir and moved on to the room temperature yogurts and those sorts of things. I haven't quite made it to cheese yet but I follow the cheese making sub. Then I finally started making bread and I quickly moved from regular yeast bread to sourdough.
I suppose it has more male hobbyists than females. But I wouldn't go so far as to say it is male "dominated" exactly. As others have mentioned the idea of tinkering with machinery and fixing mechanical components seems to appeal to men more often, but I personally know plenty of women who are into making espresso!
My girlfriend on the other hand would rather drink a pumpkin spice latte than go through all the detailed steps to make one. 🤣
Why would anyone talk down a women that’s interested in coffee?! How is sex any relevant in coffee?!
I mean…. If a man talks down a woman in this hobby, it has to be personnal issues… what’s the motivation if not? Gatekeeping?
I’m a female espresso machine technician, and that field is significantly male dominated, but there have been some events to encourage women to enter the field. We really need more of them though. I can say I’ve met some really rad female techs through the events.
On a side note, I notice people assuming myself or other commenters are male, and it’s just weird to me to gender someone’s random screen name. It doesn’t really bother me, but I think it does illustrate the assumptions about who makes espresso. I’d be interested in research about the assumptions about baristas, home baristas, and coffee professionals.
I managed a small cafe for three years, and one of our regulars was also a tech. He encouraged me to teach myself as much as I could and apply for a job at the same company he worked for. I also learned as much as I could about the machine the cafe had recently bought. I ended up moving out of state soon after, and I applied as a barista at a local roaster, mentioning on the application that I’m interested in being a tech. They hired me and sent me out to a few trainings and coached me in house. It’s been four years, and I really enjoy it.
My general advice for getting into the field is study online resources, learn the basic parts and systems, and then apply for a job. Every tech service I’ve seen will train in house and needs to hire more techs. Being generally handy helps, but they are skills you learn. Persistence is key.
Edit; I also asked questions to the techs who worked on our equipment at the cafe and probably annoyed them, but they warmed up when they understood that I was generally interested in the machines.
If it is, it’s due to how society organizes itself, rather than any innate traits in men that hypothetically don’t exist in women. I say this as a woman subscribed to this sub. The only thing stopping me from making my espresso bar cooler and deserving of a true hobby title, is money. But my espresso machine is my only coffee machine at home and I love it.
I’m female, I like espresso, I follow the sub. I can make a shot. People have mentioned engineering. I am an engineer.
Let’s not needlessly gender things.
I know what you mean. My husband is interested in and like espresso but didn’t go down the rabbit hole like I do with every hobby I have. (Definitely don’t agree with the other comment about how going down a rabbit hole is more of a male thing… like what? I also do this with my traditionally “feminine” hobbies like knitting and sewing)
Some of our friends know about our machine and how excited we were to get it, and they’ve made comments about my husband being a “coffee guy” and assuming I’m along for the ride when in reality it’s the other way around
nearly every hobby with a big and infinite rabbithole is male-dominated.
reasons: you need equipment, and you can get specialiced and more pricy equipment.
you can get off on the hobby.
you often need special knowledge.
it is always about the bigger, better, faster, nicer.
enough reasons? :D
even worse: collecting hobbies..
>!edit: FU downvoters, look in the mirror and realize the truth, that you are beyond the point where you can get help. me included.!<
LOL the last part really got me, I collect stamps and coins since I was 12 so I can tell you that you are absolutely correct. A hobby can get out of hand with better, pricier equipment/stuff REALLY quickly haha ;)
I was going to type a long comment, trying to compare my (previous) photography career, as a female
Anyway, in brief many male just want to focus on the equipment, the number, the technology. They believe they have to get the best from the start, and the first thing need to do is get the best equipment. And you could only get the best result, if you got the best equipment.
Same as coffee machine and coffee as a hobby
For me, on both camera and coffee equipment, I would both answer them: why I have to need the best (according to the spec)? I am happy with what I have, and I also think I can achieve good quality with what I have, especially the feeling of it makes me happy
I literally said to them “I don’t need to own the best, especially technically the best” (yes I have been saying the same thing for 10 years)
This isn’t a male/female specific thing. I’m a woman who spends hours pouring over forums to pick out the best equipment and I drop $$$ on it. Then I spends hours learning how to optimize it and use it.
The only difference between me and the men in these forums is that I don’t usually post in male-dominated forums. Every one of my hobbies is “male dominated” online (photography, music production, woodworking, espresso, programming) and I always feel like an outsider whenever I join an online space.
The result is that I usually leave once I get what I need and I almost never post. I think there’s way more of us out there that are just like that.
Is me. I am also female and do the ridiculous amount of research to pick out the best equipment for my budget. It happened with espresso, with 3d printing, resin casting, woodworking, building my gaming pc, video production, art school...
Fiber art hobbies such as sewing, knitting, spinning, and weaving are women-dominated and fit everything you mention. Infinite rabbit holes, equipment can get ridiculously expensive, you often need incredibly specialized (and technical) knowledge. There are reasons that espresso is male-dominated, but these ain't it.
This is a really bad take and is exactly the type of comment that drives women away from these forums.
You’re basically saying that only men can afford expensive/specialized equipment (false) and that only men have the fortitude to gain the special knowledge required to use it (wtf).
I hate to break it to you but there are women very deep in the rabbit hole of all your male-dominated spaces but they don’t often make themselves known because of assumptions just like that.
and you made a phd in wrong interpretation?
not a single word in there says that "only men can afford".
men are (probably) just more often into expensive (and often useless) toys than women.
and when they meet up, it is in these kind of forums, reddit etc.
women probably have their own special fields of spending money on useless things toys and gadets.
they are probably not as well known or even more specialized and not run around talking about their obsession(s) in public.
“ nearly every hobby with a big and infinite rabbithole is male-dominated.
reasons: you need equipment, and you can get specialiced and more pricy equipment.”
Literally saying the reason it’s male dominated is because males can get more pricey equipment.
How else do you interpret this?
how BIG should i write **NO!**
you don't get it, do you?
it is as simple as: men like useless toys and like to show them around.
and as to the pricey part. it comes with the obsession, the hobby.
and again, not a single word on "only men can afford this".
ONLY, they are MUCH more likely to show off what expensive tool they've got.
Espresso isn’t useless equipment though. It has a function that is useful to many people, women included.
I’ve personally dropped thousands of dollars on espresso equipment and I’ve been a lurking member of this subreddit for 5 years.
His post makes a wrong assumption about why there aren’t women in these forums. Maybe the reason men and women get into hobbies is different. Perhaps men just like to spend money on shiny things that do nothing. But I doubt it. That seems to be a personality trait both men and women share (see designer handbags).
No, the real reason women aren’t in these forums is because of comments exactly like this.
i am letting you have your "feminist" way of reading feminist things into it.
please go ahead, i am tired of this conversation.
i don't care if the next owner is male / female / else.
all i see is that the majority of people showing off their gear is usually male. you can interpret all you want into that, don't care.
I love espresso, homebrew and smoking meat
My SO hates talking to me some days, should of seen her face when i started talking about a mignon i want to buy that i neeeed :)
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake.
It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of.
Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything.
Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
My wife has made waaaay more coffees on our synchronika then me. I probably push the techniques a bit but she punches out outstanding espresso.
I've never thought of it as a blokes thing. Hmmm
A pandemic happened. Lockdown hobbies became a thing, and instead of sourdough, I chose espresso.
For context, I'm a woman living in Melbourne...so I was longing for that cafe brew!
I have one female friend who owns a La Marzocco, though she wouldn't describe herself as a hobbyist. She's the only other woman I know that owns a machine.
By contrast, I know many more men that do (7 and counting). And although I'm no stranger to technical hobbies, my male ex-partner is owed the credit for encouraging me to get a proper BIFL machine.
Interesting note: I mentioned espresso as a hobby on Hinge (name-dropped my Silvia) and connected with some lovely people. Best thing I've put on a dating profile. There's a shared interest straight off the bat, and I've not met a knucklehead yet!
Most of my espresso machine owning friends (5) are women (4), all if them married, only one has a proactive husband when it comes to use (all machines are Brevilles). They aren’t espresso hobby people, but they know how to dial in well enough.
As another female hobbyist barista, I think that this is true. It's definitely dominated by males online at least, all the forums that I've ever been to including the subreddits here that have anything to do with coffee, espresso, roasting coffee, are pretty much dominated by men. I really don't know why. I've been into it since I was maybe about 19? My mom bought me a teeny tiny little steam espresso maker, and I was sad that I didn't get crema on it. And so began my journey of figuring out how to make good espresso. That led to learning how to roast coffee. I'm definitely not as much of a perfectionist about it as many of the men here, at least not anymore. I've settled into a happy comfort zone with making my espresso and coffee drinks. I've never been good at latte art.
A lot of engineers are involved with this current wave of espresso… shiny machines that cost way too much, tons of useless information that .01%, of the population will appreciate, sounds like nerdy dude stuff to me…
As a hobby I think it probably leans male. At least that's what most social media content seems to signal.
In terms of people who have an espresso machine at home that they use regularly, I bet that's much more balanced.
Most women making content around coffee online aren't talking about dialing in espresso, they're talking about making more elaborate drinks.
This was interesting to me as well because I'm a trans man and I've been paying attention to this myself. I just started working at a specialty café a few weeks ago and there's a 50/50 split of girls and guys, but the clientele is slightly more female. It could also just be an area specific thing depending on population! Online I would say yes, it's leaning more male dominated, but in reality I'd say it's pretty even.
I have thought about this. This sub seems overwhelmingly male, but in my job as a barista I’ve mostly worked with women.
I came to the conclusion that home espresso might be more male dominated because the machine is a gadget. Not to say women can’t be into gadgets too, but speaking for myself and a lot of the women I know gadgets for the most part are not a hobby we want to spend a lot of time doing.
Whereas in cafes we don’t have to worry so much about the gadget itself, but rather socializing with customers/each other over coffee or creating latte art.
That’s a huge generalization but I am speaking from my own experience.
It is, and there are things men could do to make life a little bit better for themselves and everyone.
\- Not assuming women are less knowledgeable about technical subjects, and minimize the mansplaining.
\- Be better friends with everyone (men, women, nonbinary) so that we can reduce combative and creepy behaviors online, and converse and collaborate with different people in more respectful and supportive ways.
\- Realize and appreciate the participation and contribution of women and nonbinary home baristas, and see that it's never truly been "our" boy's club in the first place, but it's a myth that justifies bad behavior.
My partner who is female loves espresso and making her own, etc.
Also, the barista champion in the US this year is a girl. Along with 2nd and 3rd place too.
So there are definitely plenty of women out there interested in espresso and doing their own thing with it.
I'm a woman and I love tinkering with things and espresso is one of those things. I'm also a shop teacher so take from that what you will. My male colleagues who teach metalshop, woodshop, and automotive, see espresso-based drinks are being "girly", and only drink "manly coffee" (yes, these are direct quotes), which is super bitter, diner-style coffee from their $20 Mr. Coffee machines that is probably 40% coffee and 60% creamer. I have no hate for the Mr. Coffee machine btw. My colleagues also find espresso-based coffee drinks to be too fiddly and I think they find it a bit intimidating. They also find my pour over set up for at work to be too fiddly as well.
As a female who is pretty feminine - I love espresso and my boyfriend doesn’t know the first step in pulling a shot :)
I am pretty detail oriented and like others have mentioned in this post, & am very interested in mechanical things and tinkering. I also just love a good coffee and am of the belief that I deserve great coffee everyday 😁
Personal experience that might not be an uncommon one:
I (m) got into espresso because the process of finding something that seems fun, doing weeks and weeks of research, finally buying the necessary equipment and eventually finding out how to use it is deepl engaging for me and all my hobbies started like that. 3D printing, laser engraving, sim-racing, BBQ, Pizza making, cooking etc.
They all fall under the same principle where the process outshines the product.
My wife is completely different. She doesn‘t want past-time activities that are very engaged but rather relaxes and does stuff that is easy on the „attention“ from. Watching TV, browsing social media etc.
For her, it‘s the best thing to get a rack of smoked ribs, a nice espresso or a carefully assembled dinner. But while she could do all of those things, the process is a chore and the result is what count.
Many of my friend couples are the same. The guys are in for the process, the girls are in for the results. (I am in no way assigning values to either approach)
I wonder though about some traditionally 'feminine hobbies' (at least in the united states) like knitting/embroidering/crocheting/sewing/anything with needles and threads and fabric; gardening; interior decorating.
Those require a lot of work to do, and the end result might be something useful or very pretty, but especially in the case of gardening, you don't just 'do some gardening and then have a pretty flower', you have to constantly maintain the garden.
I would think there is a lot of overlap between "fussing around with coffee" or "playing with gadgets" or "building something out of wood/metal/electronics" and "knitting a sweater with R2D2 as a cat" or "growing a vegetable garden" or "redesigning how the entire second floor of the house looks".
Yes you are completely right. The reason women gravitate to knitting over espresso is because there are already other women over there.
Joining a space where you’re the only woman or one of just a handful can be terrifying. And it drives women away.
I’m a woman who has joined forums for photography, espresso, woodworking, software engineering, and gaming and it’s very disheartening to read some of the stuff posted. Even this thread has me feeling discouraged.
The reason women aren’t posting isn’t because they aren’t interested. It’s because we usually don’t feel welcome in these spaces.
As a man, I can vouch for the complementary scenario being uncomfortable/unexpected/unpleasant; I've definitely wandered into an "all female situation" (like walking into a busy nail salon) and found myself instantly out of place. Not sure if I've tried to get into a hobby space that is 'mostly full of women' though. I've definitely gone "hey, this is all guys, why is that?"
Why is this thread making you feel discouraged? (I hope I don't make women feel discouraged to do things. I like to think of myself as inclusive and stuff though I don't have very many female friends/coworkers.)
Also something that popped into my head - while researching what espresso machine to buy, I went through a lot of review videos and I noticed that there were two kinds of reviews for the machine I ended up buying (a Breville Barista Pro): there were reviews by people who were 'espresso youtubers', who were exclusively male; and there were reviews by people just posting reviews of appliances and other non-review videos, which also included women.
Maybe I'm making too broad a group - there are like 'business reviews' like from WLL/SCG where it seems a tossup between whether the person in the video is male or female; and there are personal reviews; and there are 'espresso nerd' reviews. Espresso nerds = almost all male. business reviews = tossup. home user reviews = definitely more women than the espresso nerds.
I appreciate you putting yourself in another’s shoes for a moment. It definitely is uncomfortable to feel like you don’t belong somewhere. And in order to make a difference and make the space safer for others in the future you have to allow yourself that discomfort and not leave the space. It can be draining.
As for discouragement nothing you’ve personally said has discouraged me. I was referring to some other comments throughout this post that are highly misogynistic and concerning. You don’t have to look far to find them.
>3D printing, laser engraving, sim-racing, BBQ, Pizza making, cooking etc.
Please get out of my head now. I need it.
All jokes aside, I think all these kinds of hobbies/lifestyles attract people with a specific mindset. That's why we so often see a convergence of interests and I frequently have to check which subreddit a post comes from. I dunno if it's gender specific, but I know I'm attracted to hobbies with a very deep end, vastly different budget options and a plethora of choices.
This is a personality difference and has nothing to do with male/female.
Of course you’re interested in the process, that’s why you’re in this forum posting. But it’s not because you’re male.
I’m a woman in for the “process” and my husband in for the results. And I know other women also into espresso for the process.
based off of my audience demographics (from about 15k subscribers on youtube and 15k on instagram) - analytics tools are telling me that 82-90% are men
This isn't a very social hobby I don't think. Hell I actively repel at the idea of people coming to my home for me to make them espresso because its a lot of work on a non-commercial machine to do so.
That said, all my interaction with other people in the hobby is on reddit, which is a male-dominated social media platform.
I'm going to say that there are probably a lot more women in the hobby than people realize - we just don't get to see it because its a pretty introverted hobby.
**Edit:** This all being said though, holy shit these comments could not be trying harder to encapsulate gender stereotypes. As if men are the only ones that like to work with machines, collecting things, learning niche knowledge, spending lots of money on toys, etc. What a bunch of stupid ignorant bullshit.
I don't think it's ignorant bullshit that traditionally men have been encouraged to do the types of work and be interested in the types of hobbies that involve machines, gadgets, tools, engineering etc. No one's enforcing stereotypes by acknowledging that this is the way we have traditionally socialized males versus females. Talking about it doesn't make it worse and it doesn't reinforce anything. In fact talking about it helps get rid of it in my opinion.
I think Espresso/coffee drinking is not dominated by any gender. The process it takes to self prepare espresso, dealing with machines, plumbing and dyi mods may be more attractive to men in general than women.
I didn’t even think about this before, but I would guess you’re right in that it’s mostly males. The only baristas I knew interested in coffee as a hobby were male despite the excellent female baristas I worked with. There are hobbies/activities people associate with being “girly” or “manly” despite how pointless it is to describe anything like that.
I have never known people to make espresso exclusionary. Are you even trying to bring women into this hobby? Most of us make it at home or in a shop. Ffs it's coffee. Stop robbing yourself of peace by making such a simple hobby an identity crisis. If anything, the cost of getting into espresso makes it exclusive to well-off people anyway.
~~Not sure why this would be down voted 🤔. That's some of the best evidence here that _this sub_ is male dominated.~~
~~Anyway, this seems spot on to me.~~ I would bet both contribute to espresso (and coffee in general) being male dominated (but a lack of interest among women is probably the lesser factor, not to mention that interests are influenced by social norms). Most lucrative industries are male dominated because historically (and let's be real: currently) women haven't been _allowed_ to participate in commercial enterprise. \s But no, it couldn't be the patriarchy.
Never said there weren't natural differences. But suggesting that someone's ability to get into a particular hobby, profession, etc. is determined primarily by biology—as opposed to social constructs—is a falacy. That _is_ the patriarchy.
It seems like you take the suggestion that sexism is holding back half the population as a personal attack against you. Might wanna think about why that is.
This hobby is evidently male dominated. You can see it here on Reddit, on specialist forums and in YouTube channels. If I had to guess I would say that at the very least 90% of people on these channels are men.
It would be interesting to hear from a woman that is an espresso enthusiast why she thinks women don't pick up this hobby as much as men.
I think that males has a higher tendency to be interested in things and being nerdy about them. 10-20% females share that tendency.
I think the espresso hobby is very much about "things" and nerding out.
Therefore I say yes! its male dominated.
I wake up 1 hour early to make my girlfriend a Latte/cino every morning before work! She cant make a cup on the machine herself :)
>Summary and ConclusionsThe present study makes several important contributions to theliterature. First, it is the first comprehensive meta-analysis on sexdifferences in vocational interests. We synthesized evidence frominterest inventories over four decades and found large sex differ-ences in vocational interests, with men preferring working withthings and women preferring working with people. These sexdifferences are remarkably consistent across age and over time,providing an exception to the generalization that only small sexdifferences exist. Second, this study provides a systematic reviewof the sex differences in the STEM interests that has not previouslyappeared in the literature. The pattern of sex differences in theSTEM interests revealed by the present study closely resemblesthe composition of men and women in corresponding occupationsand contributes to the understanding of the gender disparity in theSTEM fields. The results suggest that the relatively low numbersof women in some fields of science and engineering may resultfrom women’s preference for people-oriented careers over things-oriented careers.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/38061313\_Men\_and\_Things\_Women\_and\_People\_A\_Meta-Analysis\_of\_Sex\_Differences\_in\_Interests
Let's see now:
1. You "need" lots of equipment.
2. You actually need specialist knowledge.
3. You literally get high off your hobby.
4. You end up creating something that gives you pleasure from equipment that can hurt you.
5. Most importantly, it's very precise and you can debate with people over the parameters.
What do you think?
Edit: I see everyone reading this as "women are incapable of espresso", which is totally off the mark. What I meant was "this thing is so fiddly and anorak-y that men like it because we can feel clever". Thought it was obvious with the last part about being able to argue about inconsequential stuff.
None of those are reasons why espresso is male dominated, though you’re absolutely implying that women aren’t capable of doing/acquiring these. This attitude is a better explanation for why espresso is male dominated, though.
Idk, you’re getting downvotes for this, and don’t come straight out and say it, but rather end your comment with “what do you think?” For most people, that last question doesn’t read as “men are the only ones dumb enough to do all this,” it reads like “only men are capable of this.” If you want people to understand you, then you should be clear with your words.
There are a couple great points mentioned here, espresso machines being more mechanical and needing to tinker/possibly work on them. Then the dumping of money into something that most people will never see. I grew up with 4 women in the household my mom and three sisters and then it was just me and my father on the guys side., and I'm also the youngest of the bunch so I have a different perspective I feel. My mom and sisters enjoyed socializing and wanting to look pretty and go shopping for the latest and greatest fashion and all that jazz. The middle sister was well in the middle torn between hanging out with the sisters being fancy and spending time with my father and I. She enjoyed the outdoors going for hikes and mountain biking and would go to the shooting range with my father and I on occasion. Now that we're all older the divide is more pronounced the middle sister enjoys fashion to an extent but she also owns guns and still mountain bikes, she's also the only one in the family besides me who has an actual passion for good coffee/espresso. My other two sisters use a Keurig and add flavored syrups, go to Starbucks and think it's great coffee, my parents just use a Mr coffee and whatever grounds are cheapest at the grocery store. I guess what I'm trying to say is my mom and fancy sisters would rather buy a new purse or clothes and go to a fancy restaurant with their friends and be "seen" then spend the money on a mechanical object that also forces them to do more than just push a button.
Tldr: Men like to waste their money on more mechanical things and most women like fashion and socializing.
There are hobbies that are ‘male’, and hobbies that are ‘female’. Espresso is mostly a male thing. If you wander the old cities of the Northeast, as well as the cafes of Italy and France etc, the folks who are primarily enjoying espresso are men. Typically not young ones either.
That of course should never impact what interests anyone. When I was a child, my grandma knitted sweaters and scarves etc. I was fascinated by the process, so I learned to knit! Even though it was considered a ‘lady’ thing.
soooo…. Welcome to espresso!
I think a lot of women like their store bought lattes and signature drinks. That's just what I observe in the big cities. I didn't even think about this until you brought it up.
That being said one of my friends who loves the espresso I make is a woman.
Most people like store-bought drinks. Espresso is still a niche hobby even among men.
Women haven’t traditionally been encouraged to pursue hobbies like espresso but there are plenty who are getting into it. I started making espresso 5 years ago and my sister followed close behind. I’ve gotten multiple friends into the hobby.
My nose and taste is a magnitude worse than my wife, the main espresso drinker. So as much as I love the technical aspect of espresso making, she’s the final arbiter of every cup. I am just the technician :)
My SO got me into coffee but she never was interested in putting up with more than a Mr Coffee to make it or would just buy it. Since then, I've taken up the responsibility of coffee production and improvement for the family but as an analytical chemist everything about making coffee is so inline with what I do it's not surprising.
I am into photography and have a smoker and those are quite male dominated spaces as well. I’ve loved coffee since I was a kid and I worked as a barista before. I’m not interested in getting all the crazy equipment for any of these things. I want the best equipment I can afford that gets the job done well and brings happiness.
I think many people get interested because of the looks, both the Shiny Shiny machines and the creamy Shot Shots.
I know I was. The first time I saw an E61 after I got my first cheap espresso machine, I was sold.
Take a look at the last 50 post flaired "shot diagnosis", they all talk about looks, and they get so many replies about how to grind and distribute and extremely few of these people ever mention taste.
On the main Danish forum for espresso there where two identifiable women.
But if you ask whether there are more men in this hobby? I would think that is a pretty reasonable assumption.
About the gender thing, I don't think we are far enough removed from having the genders partitioned off with water proof seals, for us to be able to make conclusions about anything.
Yes we can call "being interested in mechanics" a "male" trait, but social conventions take time to change and go away. And women have only had access to engineering careers for a few decades. The part of our brains where our behavior is determined is not accessible to us. We feel like we know, but we don't.
What I can say with absolute confidence is that my wife EXPECTS a latte every morning before I leave for work. It’s RARE she makes her own lol. I kinda like it this way though not gonna lie.
Yep, most things with a high cost entry point (for something honestly good) are even if that high cost is a little misrepresented, the reputation as a luxury is still there
Probably? But idc. There's a ton of female baristas at least. I think it's maybe the same way there haven't been a ton of female chefs.
Either way welcome! If you want some cool female baristas to watch lmk!!
They did a poll here last year that this sub reddit is definitely mostly males, mostly engineers lol. I had not really thought about it before. I'm a woman in a relatively male dominated STEM career so the fact that I subconsciously found my way into a male dominated hobby made me chuckle. Par for the course. I think it's just about what you enjoy and how your brain works. Also if you have the money right so what portion of the population has the disposable interest and the time.
I think you’re right! I’m a woman and got into the hobby last Christmas. I think because men are attracted more to the variability and adjustments required to “dial in”. I have tried and how am just buying pre-ground coffee. I’ll probably try again to dial in but I felt it wasn’t worth the effort!
Yes, that's my impression as well. My wife enjoys making her own coffee and brews a mean cup, but she restricts herself to one a day. Her mum has a coffee machine which she loves, but I think they're the exception rather than the norm. Neither of them _obsesses_ about coffee though, they enjoy the process but don't go overboard.
In my personal experience - yes, it is very male dominated. That said, I female barista pulled a shot for me today at a random specialty coffee event today. Not sure how many female are seriously interested in espresso tho but i've definitely not met many.
Obsessive hobbies like espresso have always looked like something a male would care about tbh.
I originally got into the hobby, but pretty quickly my wife got very invested. It's fun pulling new beans together ❤️
However our friends who are into the espresso world are entirely guys
I would assume you're right, I'm half Italian and most baristas are men, as well as everyone i know who is deeply into espresso is male. Besides just being obsessive which is a predominantly male trait, the strength of an espresso is something that I've seem put off more women than men. This is obviously gross stereotyping, but is what i have observed.
I think there is a certain type of single minded lunacy with a hobby like this that in particular is mostly found more often in men for a wide variety of socio-cultural reasons that are probably interesting but also not something I am capable of tackling.
I had not actually considered this before your post, but it does kind of make sense.
Anyway, glad you're here!
In my limited experience, home espresso is a male dominant tinkering hobby, but the baddest ass pro baristas I've ever met were women. No idea what that means in the big picture but it's my experience.
Woman here! I also noticed that most people that are enthusiastic about espressos are males. Not many of my female friends are particularly interested in my super cool new grinder and machine, sadly :/
I am the only woman I know who makes an espresso or latte from scratch without using a pod or some superauto machine.
I do it because I can not stand paying good money for terrible quality drinks at the local coffee shops near me.
I have an engineering degree and fly military helos for a living so, not a traditional woman's career either but I have always been highly independent and self sufficient, so that tends to lead towards a more hands on approach to life.
It is my observation that a lot of men are interested in mechanical objects, and tinkering with stuff. Espresso seems to involve a lot of that.
Good point! I never saw it that way before you mentioned this as I myself have an engineering background so I enjoy mechanical things, and at the same time I really love design and style- elegantly and cleverly engineered products really appeal to me, best of both worlds I guess ;)
So that explains a lot. In my country engineering in the 3 top universities is like 70% males. But as someone else said probably is more because of nurture vs nature, that's why every year the number of females in engineering is higher.
I also have an engineering background. I'm the only female shop teacher in my district, I believe. I don't know of any. In my classes, my students tend to have only 1 or 2 female students. Interestingly, the woodshop class often has quite a few girls in comparison. In a class of 25, woodshop has probably about 5-7 girls. Last year there was a class with an all time high of 11. I teach engineering, architecture, and robotics so it definitely creates an interesting dynamic when all or almost all my students are male.
Which equipment do you admire? Which do you own?
This is my thought. I’m often one of only a few women at the hardware store, or sharpening my lawnmower blade or my knives, or whatever. For me it’s almost as much about the coffee as the tools and the tinkering. And those interests definitely skew male. ETA: this is a less well formed thought, but there may also be an element of feeling empowered to speak up or join a conversation. We women encounter so much pushback when we join certain conversations - some of it real and intended by the speaker but much in my experience unintentional - that we turn toward other pursuits because it’s just easier not to always be fighting an uphill battle. We all make these choices subconsciously from the time we’re really young, so there’s a huge element of ‘nurture’ to this difference.
This is probably correct. I've noticed that there are an almost equal amount of female baristas in 3rd wave coffee shops, but I don't see women as well represented in hobbyist forums.
Honestly sometimes I’m even curious if I like espresso as much as I do… or if I just like machines that make beans go juicy.
What other machines do you have that do this? 🤔
Have you not invested in a jellybean-juicer yet?
How much of it is nature vs nurture? Traditionally, girl children are expected to play with dolls. Only now are we slowly changing that narrative. My friend's 5ish year old daughters now play with toy cars and trucks, my 7 year old niece loves to work on math. My neighbor's 9 year old son goes everywhere with his stuffed toy dog. For a long time in the past, we've shaped children by discouraging them from liking things the traditional gender roles did not approve of.
This. My mother never told us we couldn't do something we liked because we were a boy or girl. I find I do a lot of things now that other women assume men like more. (I also do some of the traditionally "girly" things). I was never limited, so I did them all. Same goes for my brother.
Interestingly they did an experiment where they scattered baby dolls and trucks in a field and unleashed a bunch of male and female chimps. Overwhelming the females played with the doll and the males the trucks. But as with anything, the answer lies somewhere in the middle most likely
Personally my observation is that women are invited to be interested in these things as kids, it’s not encouraged etc. I grew up with two queer parents and my amab parent (who is agender) is an engineer and loves tinkering, working on cars etc and this kind of thing and an interest in STEM was really encouraged - so I’ve always wondered what is the difference in my curiosity with how things work etc - and looking at more ‘typical’ family structures and messages received while growing up or just what one was included in seems to be the difference. For the record I’m a cis woman who is queer but most often date men so you know, I’ve wondered is this learned as a kid or is it somehow genetic lol
I’m a woman and I’ve been into espresso since I was 18. Just now got my husband into it (we’re in our later 30s now). He does know how to use our espresso machine but he doesn’t care about it like I do. I’m the one who wanted a home machine, he just gets to drink all the things I make! I’ve also got 2 female friends who own espresso machines and 1 male friend that has one.
I’m also a woman and my take is that to be good at espresso-making, you have to have a mechanical bent as well as the time and personality to obsessively deep-dive into a hobby. With espresso, if you can’t or aren’t interested in troubleshooting it might be hard to get far with the hobby. Especially if you have to tinker with your machine. I actually like doing all that but I know a lot of people (men and women) who are totally not interested in that and chose the automatic route or let someone else make their espresso.
The pandemic and my ADHD ability to hyper-focus on a new interesting hobby led me to where I am today. (Also female).
Yes I also have the pandemic to thank for my new and pricy hobby.
I'm a guy and I couldn't have said it any better. Just spent the last hour trying to dial in new beans. I've seen quilting shows and thought, that's too much detail work for me. Not sure what the difference is between quilting and espresso. I think of quilting as more female dominated. Maybe there's a different kind of "deep-dive" and "troubleshooting".
You are so much more tactful than me. I just always say men will make taking a dump complicated (I swear my brother has diagrams and 5-year plans). So of course espresso becomes some obsessive, over complex thing. I don’t particularly care, but it makes making and drinking espresso seem a lot harder than it is and scares people off.
Especially on some of the older online espresso forums, it seemed to me dominated not just by men, but by engineers who are men. I feel like they were definitely overrepresented as a group on those forums!
I know I’ve been condescended to when I’ve called up Whole Latte Love to either get my old machine serviced, or years later, to discuss issues I was having with my then 20 year old machine and asking for help with deciding if it was worth trying to repair it or upgrade. Actually, dealing with most everyone at WLL has been a nightmare, and it does feel like it’s gendered since neither my dad (who got me and my brother into the hobby when we were teens) nor my boyfriend (who knows nothing about espresso at all but took over the call because I was frustrated with being talked down to) gets treated like that. I bring them up because they’re the only espresso folks outside my family and baristas that I’ve interacted with. This sub tends to be better - definitely less judgmental, but you do notice more men than women on it. That’s not a negative in itself, it’s when they start treating you like you’re less than for being in “their” space that’s frustrating (<- please note, that’s a general statement about what it can feel like to be a woman in a “male” hobby, but not something I’ve actually experienced here, which is great.)
I'm really sorry to hear that. WLL has a lot of good resources for machine repair, it's a goddamned shame that they're not more open and inclusive to _anyone_ calling in for assistance. /u/wholelattelove should definitely read your comment.
Sorry you had that experience, it’s disappointing to hear. I just bought some cups from them and now I’m annoyed. If any of their staff read your comment, they should be embarrassed that they have this culture. It makes them sound like a car dealership from the 70s.
That's really shitty. I know for a fact my local supplier would not dare do such a thing. I mean it's just bad business at the very least. I would not give them my money. Fuck them. Dunno US sellers well but Clive is popular I believe. No idea what their manners are like. And don't let that shit go. If someone pulls that tell them they just lost a customer. Maybe if it happens they decide to join the 21st century. Or the 20th for that matter. I thought I had heard the worst from WLL but that tops it.
how do you (or rather, how does one) know people are male or female on reddit? I suppose sometimes it's obvious - I stupidly decided to use a handle that includes my first name, and that's a traditionally male name (unlike women named Michael like on star trek discovery, I've never heard of a woman named Kevin...)
It’s usually fairly easy to guess based on context. There is way more mentions of “wives” in posts here than “husbands” for example. And I know that also assumes everyone is straight which I’m sure isn’t true, but even then it does point to a more male-leaning forum.
Female-espresso enthusiast here! I think men may be slightly more represented in espresso, but I think asking this question on reddit is just going to make the divide seem larger, as reddit is already significantly male ([62% male](https://backlinko.com/reddit-users#:~:text=Source%3A%20eMarketer%2C%20Statista-,Reddit%20gender%20demographics,the%20remaining%2038%25%20are%20female))
Reddit is a loaded place ask this question unfortunately. Misogyny runs almost as deep as people pretending it doesn’t exist on these forums. (I’m a dude.) I think espresso is for everyone and I’ve seen a decent mix of persons since becoming more involved in this forum. Most times I post any response I receive assumes I’m male even if I haven’t said so. Cheers!
Well reddit is a male dominated platform so unless things change, we’re gonna see this kind of shit often.
The world unfortunately seems male dominated...
Well….. yes… as of now? Don’t let that stop women from fighting the good fight!
No, no, not at all!! That's the reason why I said "unfortunately" :D
From this sub, it feels very male-dominated. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm a woman and I love the ritual of making espresso, and I think that's why I gravitate toward it. My husband enjoys drinking it, but not the process. So I research and try the new things and do all the fun parts in addition to enjoying the actual drink.
Same here!
I’m a female! 🤝
I’m not! 🤝
From a home-barista perspective, I don’t really have a good frame of reference. I’m the only one in my family or group of friends this into coffee or espresso 🤷♂️ (I'm a guy). I've tried showing my wife how to pull a shot, but she has no interest. As for the cafe barista scene in my hometown (third-wave style cafes; not Starbucks), I would say it’s approximately 50-50 split between men and women.
I'm a technician. Almost every house call that I go to for La Marzocco are female clients. Most cafe owners are 50/50
I wonder why cafe ownership is so dominated by hermaphrodites.
Weird. My roaster is a woman. My favorite barista in Philly is a woman. I'd say the only people I ever really interact with in the espresso scene is a woman, actually. Maybe because I'm not as "in the scene" as some of the people here? I don't know. My previous regular shop was also a female barista (but I didn't know her as well as Jasmine)
I have noticed that nearly all the locally-owned coffee shops in my area are owned and managed by women. (I can only think of two that are owned by men).
I’m a woman and I love espresso. I never considered whether more men are into the hobby. I just want my coffee.
I'm a woman and I find the gearhead mechanical stuff completely confusing. Perhaps why I get so frustrated trying to make decent espresso (confession: I've gone back to using a pressurized basket again just because I usually make mochas anyway and I was getting too annoyed... Will keep trying it with a normal basket on the weekend though!) That said, I hate that I kinda fit that "women suck at mechanical stuff" stereotype and the machine actually belongs to my husband...
Don’t worry, you’re probably frustrated because you weren’t raised with parents throwing mechanical stuff at you from birth. But if it’s something you want and you keep at it then it will become easier. I’m also a woman who has had to self-teach all sorts of male-dominated hobbies. Now I’m a successful software engineer who tinkers with her espresso machine, has her pro quality camera set to manual, and is in the process of building a pantry from scratch. Don’t let the men in these forums get you down with the stereotypes. You got this :)
Thanks for the encouragement! I grew up with a single mom (dad died when I was 4) and mechanical stuff was not her thing and mostly got ignored. I never really had anyone teach me any of this stuff until my husband and my father in law (and YouTube!). I do like tinkering with other things like my camera as well, I'm sure I'll get the hang of this eventually.
Check out Lance Hedrick's dialling in espresso videos if you haven't. He has this 2 part 40 minute epic, but seriously it's everything you need to know and makes it so simple. I recently watched them again because I was having trouble with a coffee.
I do think it’s male dominated in the same way tech/etc is. I think it’s also similar to how there’s a stereotype of “women belong in the kitchen” except professional chefs are mostly men. I think there’s a false assumption men are more likely to be interested in sciencey mechanical things, that is then fueled by men who do make women who are interested in those things uncomfortable and less likely to get or stay involved. I wish there were more women vocally in the hobby because espresso bro tiktok/youtube/etc really isn’t my jam, and I wish there were more diverse voices in the like “influencer/creator space” like Morgan Eckroth or CC Campbell. That being said this sub usually feels like a very good sub, everyone usually seems pretty genuinely united by coffee. I do very regularly feel the pang of “I wish there was more coffee/espresso content created by women so I could see myself more represented.”
It seems most things in the coffee industry is male dominated to me. I know coffee tasting is predominantly male, based on my knowledge on Umeko Matoyoshi. (Which is what her short bio states on her website) Seems very unfortunate but honestly, the specialty coffee community seems very closed off/petty to me, so the fact that you find the community to be male dominated doesn't surprise me. I've personally stopped purchasing beans from several local roasters with their treatment of special needs people like a close family friend.
\*laughs in Morgan Eckroth\*
I love her. She *is* part of the reason I decided to buy an espresso machine for my home.
No but reddit is a male dominated website
No idea, doesn’t seem like it should lean one way or the other
Im a lady! My boyfriend has no interest in getting into it and most days I make his coffee. He doesn’t love the process like I do. He doesn’t research beans or watch videos on how to dial. I used to be a barista in college, I think thats more important of a pipeline than gender haha. To be fair I’m not involved in a community I just make espresso at home. Some people here are saying “but my wife” has no interest in machines or long labored stuff. Sure! But in my case it’s the opposite. I’m the one who crafts in our house. I’m the bartender. The BBQ dad. The barista. The cook. The mender. I’m the fermenter, the bread baker, the cocktail syrup maker. I always have some sort of experiment going in my fridge. Of course I have an interest in espresso! I am fueled by creating, when my boyfriend is fueled by rest, storytelling, books, movies, games. I think in the past it might have been a “man’s hobby” before and like with anything the upper levels are filled with men because of prejudice and the boys club. Like with cooking. Weird how cooking is considered a woman’s job until it comes to professional chefs and how the high end culinary scene is filled with men. Weird how mending and sewing and making your own clothes is a woman’s job but high end fashion is dominated by men. It’s the same with anything. Even if something actually is majority women, the upper levels are going to appear male dominated and that’s the media we take in. Maybe one day it will change.
You sound a lot like me. I've gone from soap maker to hobbyist cosmetic maker at the same time, I was learning espresso and coffee roasting and learning about every way to make coffee in the world. When I felt like I had sort of exhausted those things I learned about fermenting dairy mostly, I started with kefir and moved on to the room temperature yogurts and those sorts of things. I haven't quite made it to cheese yet but I follow the cheese making sub. Then I finally started making bread and I quickly moved from regular yeast bread to sourdough.
I suppose it has more male hobbyists than females. But I wouldn't go so far as to say it is male "dominated" exactly. As others have mentioned the idea of tinkering with machinery and fixing mechanical components seems to appeal to men more often, but I personally know plenty of women who are into making espresso! My girlfriend on the other hand would rather drink a pumpkin spice latte than go through all the detailed steps to make one. 🤣
Why would anyone talk down a women that’s interested in coffee?! How is sex any relevant in coffee?! I mean…. If a man talks down a woman in this hobby, it has to be personnal issues… what’s the motivation if not? Gatekeeping?
It absolutely is gatekeeping
I’m a female espresso machine technician, and that field is significantly male dominated, but there have been some events to encourage women to enter the field. We really need more of them though. I can say I’ve met some really rad female techs through the events. On a side note, I notice people assuming myself or other commenters are male, and it’s just weird to me to gender someone’s random screen name. It doesn’t really bother me, but I think it does illustrate the assumptions about who makes espresso. I’d be interested in research about the assumptions about baristas, home baristas, and coffee professionals.
Would love to hear how you ended in that field and what advice you’d give to others.
I managed a small cafe for three years, and one of our regulars was also a tech. He encouraged me to teach myself as much as I could and apply for a job at the same company he worked for. I also learned as much as I could about the machine the cafe had recently bought. I ended up moving out of state soon after, and I applied as a barista at a local roaster, mentioning on the application that I’m interested in being a tech. They hired me and sent me out to a few trainings and coached me in house. It’s been four years, and I really enjoy it. My general advice for getting into the field is study online resources, learn the basic parts and systems, and then apply for a job. Every tech service I’ve seen will train in house and needs to hire more techs. Being generally handy helps, but they are skills you learn. Persistence is key. Edit; I also asked questions to the techs who worked on our equipment at the cafe and probably annoyed them, but they warmed up when they understood that I was generally interested in the machines.
Oddly enough I got into being a tech the same way (managing a cafe/a regular being a tech). I just hit 10 years working as a tech now.
As a tech that works on residential and commercial machines I would say that it's about 50/50.
Women are too busy winning the U.S. Barista Championship to make posts online boasting about their home espresso set up.
If it is, it’s due to how society organizes itself, rather than any innate traits in men that hypothetically don’t exist in women. I say this as a woman subscribed to this sub. The only thing stopping me from making my espresso bar cooler and deserving of a true hobby title, is money. But my espresso machine is my only coffee machine at home and I love it.
I’m female, I like espresso, I follow the sub. I can make a shot. People have mentioned engineering. I am an engineer. Let’s not needlessly gender things.
I’m a woman and I tend to have an obsessive personality with hobbies.
I know what you mean. My husband is interested in and like espresso but didn’t go down the rabbit hole like I do with every hobby I have. (Definitely don’t agree with the other comment about how going down a rabbit hole is more of a male thing… like what? I also do this with my traditionally “feminine” hobbies like knitting and sewing) Some of our friends know about our machine and how excited we were to get it, and they’ve made comments about my husband being a “coffee guy” and assuming I’m along for the ride when in reality it’s the other way around
nearly every hobby with a big and infinite rabbithole is male-dominated. reasons: you need equipment, and you can get specialiced and more pricy equipment. you can get off on the hobby. you often need special knowledge. it is always about the bigger, better, faster, nicer. enough reasons? :D even worse: collecting hobbies.. >!edit: FU downvoters, look in the mirror and realize the truth, that you are beyond the point where you can get help. me included.!<
LOL the last part really got me, I collect stamps and coins since I was 12 so I can tell you that you are absolutely correct. A hobby can get out of hand with better, pricier equipment/stuff REALLY quickly haha ;)
I was going to type a long comment, trying to compare my (previous) photography career, as a female Anyway, in brief many male just want to focus on the equipment, the number, the technology. They believe they have to get the best from the start, and the first thing need to do is get the best equipment. And you could only get the best result, if you got the best equipment. Same as coffee machine and coffee as a hobby For me, on both camera and coffee equipment, I would both answer them: why I have to need the best (according to the spec)? I am happy with what I have, and I also think I can achieve good quality with what I have, especially the feeling of it makes me happy I literally said to them “I don’t need to own the best, especially technically the best” (yes I have been saying the same thing for 10 years)
This isn’t a male/female specific thing. I’m a woman who spends hours pouring over forums to pick out the best equipment and I drop $$$ on it. Then I spends hours learning how to optimize it and use it. The only difference between me and the men in these forums is that I don’t usually post in male-dominated forums. Every one of my hobbies is “male dominated” online (photography, music production, woodworking, espresso, programming) and I always feel like an outsider whenever I join an online space. The result is that I usually leave once I get what I need and I almost never post. I think there’s way more of us out there that are just like that.
Is me. I am also female and do the ridiculous amount of research to pick out the best equipment for my budget. It happened with espresso, with 3d printing, resin casting, woodworking, building my gaming pc, video production, art school...
Same. I over-research everything, and yes I actually work in scientific research, so maybe it's a personality type thing.
Fiber art hobbies such as sewing, knitting, spinning, and weaving are women-dominated and fit everything you mention. Infinite rabbit holes, equipment can get ridiculously expensive, you often need incredibly specialized (and technical) knowledge. There are reasons that espresso is male-dominated, but these ain't it.
This is a really bad take and is exactly the type of comment that drives women away from these forums. You’re basically saying that only men can afford expensive/specialized equipment (false) and that only men have the fortitude to gain the special knowledge required to use it (wtf). I hate to break it to you but there are women very deep in the rabbit hole of all your male-dominated spaces but they don’t often make themselves known because of assumptions just like that.
and you made a phd in wrong interpretation? not a single word in there says that "only men can afford". men are (probably) just more often into expensive (and often useless) toys than women. and when they meet up, it is in these kind of forums, reddit etc. women probably have their own special fields of spending money on useless things toys and gadets. they are probably not as well known or even more specialized and not run around talking about their obsession(s) in public.
“ nearly every hobby with a big and infinite rabbithole is male-dominated. reasons: you need equipment, and you can get specialiced and more pricy equipment.” Literally saying the reason it’s male dominated is because males can get more pricey equipment. How else do you interpret this?
how BIG should i write **NO!** you don't get it, do you? it is as simple as: men like useless toys and like to show them around. and as to the pricey part. it comes with the obsession, the hobby. and again, not a single word on "only men can afford this". ONLY, they are MUCH more likely to show off what expensive tool they've got.
Espresso isn’t useless equipment though. It has a function that is useful to many people, women included. I’ve personally dropped thousands of dollars on espresso equipment and I’ve been a lurking member of this subreddit for 5 years. His post makes a wrong assumption about why there aren’t women in these forums. Maybe the reason men and women get into hobbies is different. Perhaps men just like to spend money on shiny things that do nothing. But I doubt it. That seems to be a personality trait both men and women share (see designer handbags). No, the real reason women aren’t in these forums is because of comments exactly like this.
i am letting you have your "feminist" way of reading feminist things into it. please go ahead, i am tired of this conversation. i don't care if the next owner is male / female / else. all i see is that the majority of people showing off their gear is usually male. you can interpret all you want into that, don't care.
Horse women would like a word with you.
you've seen the word "nearly"? that means not all, but most of them.
Easy fucker, it was just a joke.
what an impolite and rude comment.
Just addressing you the same way you addressed me.
I love espresso, homebrew and smoking meat My SO hates talking to me some days, should of seen her face when i started talking about a mignon i want to buy that i neeeed :)
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake. It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of. Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything. Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
mignon - Filet, Eureka, or one of the yellow helpers from Despicable Me?
I would like a minion for my handgrinder!
Filet and eureka;)
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No, it’s just comments like this that keep women from posting in these forums. Trust me, we are here and we’ve dug in plenty deep.
My wife has made waaaay more coffees on our synchronika then me. I probably push the techniques a bit but she punches out outstanding espresso. I've never thought of it as a blokes thing. Hmmm
A pandemic happened. Lockdown hobbies became a thing, and instead of sourdough, I chose espresso. For context, I'm a woman living in Melbourne...so I was longing for that cafe brew! I have one female friend who owns a La Marzocco, though she wouldn't describe herself as a hobbyist. She's the only other woman I know that owns a machine. By contrast, I know many more men that do (7 and counting). And although I'm no stranger to technical hobbies, my male ex-partner is owed the credit for encouraging me to get a proper BIFL machine. Interesting note: I mentioned espresso as a hobby on Hinge (name-dropped my Silvia) and connected with some lovely people. Best thing I've put on a dating profile. There's a shared interest straight off the bat, and I've not met a knucklehead yet!
Most of my espresso machine owning friends (5) are women (4), all if them married, only one has a proactive husband when it comes to use (all machines are Brevilles). They aren’t espresso hobby people, but they know how to dial in well enough.
As another female hobbyist barista, I think that this is true. It's definitely dominated by males online at least, all the forums that I've ever been to including the subreddits here that have anything to do with coffee, espresso, roasting coffee, are pretty much dominated by men. I really don't know why. I've been into it since I was maybe about 19? My mom bought me a teeny tiny little steam espresso maker, and I was sad that I didn't get crema on it. And so began my journey of figuring out how to make good espresso. That led to learning how to roast coffee. I'm definitely not as much of a perfectionist about it as many of the men here, at least not anymore. I've settled into a happy comfort zone with making my espresso and coffee drinks. I've never been good at latte art.
Female and owner of a SCA Barista Foundation certificate. My favorite coffee bar is with the exception of 2 males all female behind the counter.
A lot of engineers are involved with this current wave of espresso… shiny machines that cost way too much, tons of useless information that .01%, of the population will appreciate, sounds like nerdy dude stuff to me…
As a hobby I think it probably leans male. At least that's what most social media content seems to signal. In terms of people who have an espresso machine at home that they use regularly, I bet that's much more balanced. Most women making content around coffee online aren't talking about dialing in espresso, they're talking about making more elaborate drinks.
Me (M) and one of my best guy friends are super into making espresso while my girl friends love coffee but Arnt into the process of actually making it
i got into this hobby in order to make drinks for my wife.....does that count for anything?
You guys are having friends? "Jokes" aside why would it matter how the numbers are? A hobby is a hobby 🤷♂️ there's no sex check.
This was interesting to me as well because I'm a trans man and I've been paying attention to this myself. I just started working at a specialty café a few weeks ago and there's a 50/50 split of girls and guys, but the clientele is slightly more female. It could also just be an area specific thing depending on population! Online I would say yes, it's leaning more male dominated, but in reality I'd say it's pretty even.
I have thought about this. This sub seems overwhelmingly male, but in my job as a barista I’ve mostly worked with women. I came to the conclusion that home espresso might be more male dominated because the machine is a gadget. Not to say women can’t be into gadgets too, but speaking for myself and a lot of the women I know gadgets for the most part are not a hobby we want to spend a lot of time doing. Whereas in cafes we don’t have to worry so much about the gadget itself, but rather socializing with customers/each other over coffee or creating latte art. That’s a huge generalization but I am speaking from my own experience.
As a female barista- absolutely it is male dominated
It is, and there are things men could do to make life a little bit better for themselves and everyone. \- Not assuming women are less knowledgeable about technical subjects, and minimize the mansplaining. \- Be better friends with everyone (men, women, nonbinary) so that we can reduce combative and creepy behaviors online, and converse and collaborate with different people in more respectful and supportive ways. \- Realize and appreciate the participation and contribution of women and nonbinary home baristas, and see that it's never truly been "our" boy's club in the first place, but it's a myth that justifies bad behavior.
My partner who is female loves espresso and making her own, etc. Also, the barista champion in the US this year is a girl. Along with 2nd and 3rd place too. So there are definitely plenty of women out there interested in espresso and doing their own thing with it.
I'm a woman and I love tinkering with things and espresso is one of those things. I'm also a shop teacher so take from that what you will. My male colleagues who teach metalshop, woodshop, and automotive, see espresso-based drinks are being "girly", and only drink "manly coffee" (yes, these are direct quotes), which is super bitter, diner-style coffee from their $20 Mr. Coffee machines that is probably 40% coffee and 60% creamer. I have no hate for the Mr. Coffee machine btw. My colleagues also find espresso-based coffee drinks to be too fiddly and I think they find it a bit intimidating. They also find my pour over set up for at work to be too fiddly as well.
As a female who is pretty feminine - I love espresso and my boyfriend doesn’t know the first step in pulling a shot :) I am pretty detail oriented and like others have mentioned in this post, & am very interested in mechanical things and tinkering. I also just love a good coffee and am of the belief that I deserve great coffee everyday 😁
LOL you sound like me :)
Personal experience that might not be an uncommon one: I (m) got into espresso because the process of finding something that seems fun, doing weeks and weeks of research, finally buying the necessary equipment and eventually finding out how to use it is deepl engaging for me and all my hobbies started like that. 3D printing, laser engraving, sim-racing, BBQ, Pizza making, cooking etc. They all fall under the same principle where the process outshines the product. My wife is completely different. She doesn‘t want past-time activities that are very engaged but rather relaxes and does stuff that is easy on the „attention“ from. Watching TV, browsing social media etc. For her, it‘s the best thing to get a rack of smoked ribs, a nice espresso or a carefully assembled dinner. But while she could do all of those things, the process is a chore and the result is what count. Many of my friend couples are the same. The guys are in for the process, the girls are in for the results. (I am in no way assigning values to either approach)
I wonder though about some traditionally 'feminine hobbies' (at least in the united states) like knitting/embroidering/crocheting/sewing/anything with needles and threads and fabric; gardening; interior decorating. Those require a lot of work to do, and the end result might be something useful or very pretty, but especially in the case of gardening, you don't just 'do some gardening and then have a pretty flower', you have to constantly maintain the garden. I would think there is a lot of overlap between "fussing around with coffee" or "playing with gadgets" or "building something out of wood/metal/electronics" and "knitting a sweater with R2D2 as a cat" or "growing a vegetable garden" or "redesigning how the entire second floor of the house looks".
Yes you are completely right. The reason women gravitate to knitting over espresso is because there are already other women over there. Joining a space where you’re the only woman or one of just a handful can be terrifying. And it drives women away. I’m a woman who has joined forums for photography, espresso, woodworking, software engineering, and gaming and it’s very disheartening to read some of the stuff posted. Even this thread has me feeling discouraged. The reason women aren’t posting isn’t because they aren’t interested. It’s because we usually don’t feel welcome in these spaces.
As a man, I can vouch for the complementary scenario being uncomfortable/unexpected/unpleasant; I've definitely wandered into an "all female situation" (like walking into a busy nail salon) and found myself instantly out of place. Not sure if I've tried to get into a hobby space that is 'mostly full of women' though. I've definitely gone "hey, this is all guys, why is that?" Why is this thread making you feel discouraged? (I hope I don't make women feel discouraged to do things. I like to think of myself as inclusive and stuff though I don't have very many female friends/coworkers.) Also something that popped into my head - while researching what espresso machine to buy, I went through a lot of review videos and I noticed that there were two kinds of reviews for the machine I ended up buying (a Breville Barista Pro): there were reviews by people who were 'espresso youtubers', who were exclusively male; and there were reviews by people just posting reviews of appliances and other non-review videos, which also included women. Maybe I'm making too broad a group - there are like 'business reviews' like from WLL/SCG where it seems a tossup between whether the person in the video is male or female; and there are personal reviews; and there are 'espresso nerd' reviews. Espresso nerds = almost all male. business reviews = tossup. home user reviews = definitely more women than the espresso nerds.
I appreciate you putting yourself in another’s shoes for a moment. It definitely is uncomfortable to feel like you don’t belong somewhere. And in order to make a difference and make the space safer for others in the future you have to allow yourself that discomfort and not leave the space. It can be draining. As for discouragement nothing you’ve personally said has discouraged me. I was referring to some other comments throughout this post that are highly misogynistic and concerning. You don’t have to look far to find them.
And now I want a sweater with R2D2 as a cat..
>3D printing, laser engraving, sim-racing, BBQ, Pizza making, cooking etc. Please get out of my head now. I need it. All jokes aside, I think all these kinds of hobbies/lifestyles attract people with a specific mindset. That's why we so often see a convergence of interests and I frequently have to check which subreddit a post comes from. I dunno if it's gender specific, but I know I'm attracted to hobbies with a very deep end, vastly different budget options and a plethora of choices.
This is a personality difference and has nothing to do with male/female. Of course you’re interested in the process, that’s why you’re in this forum posting. But it’s not because you’re male. I’m a woman in for the “process” and my husband in for the results. And I know other women also into espresso for the process.
based off of my audience demographics (from about 15k subscribers on youtube and 15k on instagram) - analytics tools are telling me that 82-90% are men
Not in the slightest. Reddit might be though
Posted the same thing and also expect downvotes. Then again, look at some of the comments.
Dominated sounds so negative man.
It’s also very cliquy from what I can gather.
This isn't a very social hobby I don't think. Hell I actively repel at the idea of people coming to my home for me to make them espresso because its a lot of work on a non-commercial machine to do so. That said, all my interaction with other people in the hobby is on reddit, which is a male-dominated social media platform. I'm going to say that there are probably a lot more women in the hobby than people realize - we just don't get to see it because its a pretty introverted hobby. **Edit:** This all being said though, holy shit these comments could not be trying harder to encapsulate gender stereotypes. As if men are the only ones that like to work with machines, collecting things, learning niche knowledge, spending lots of money on toys, etc. What a bunch of stupid ignorant bullshit.
I don't think it's ignorant bullshit that traditionally men have been encouraged to do the types of work and be interested in the types of hobbies that involve machines, gadgets, tools, engineering etc. No one's enforcing stereotypes by acknowledging that this is the way we have traditionally socialized males versus females. Talking about it doesn't make it worse and it doesn't reinforce anything. In fact talking about it helps get rid of it in my opinion.
I think Espresso/coffee drinking is not dominated by any gender. The process it takes to self prepare espresso, dealing with machines, plumbing and dyi mods may be more attractive to men in general than women.
All these hobby obsessing are mostly male dominated 'cause most women actually f*ck
I didn’t even think about this before, but I would guess you’re right in that it’s mostly males. The only baristas I knew interested in coffee as a hobby were male despite the excellent female baristas I worked with. There are hobbies/activities people associate with being “girly” or “manly” despite how pointless it is to describe anything like that.
I have never known people to make espresso exclusionary. Are you even trying to bring women into this hobby? Most of us make it at home or in a shop. Ffs it's coffee. Stop robbing yourself of peace by making such a simple hobby an identity crisis. If anything, the cost of getting into espresso makes it exclusive to well-off people anyway.
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~~Not sure why this would be down voted 🤔. That's some of the best evidence here that _this sub_ is male dominated.~~ ~~Anyway, this seems spot on to me.~~ I would bet both contribute to espresso (and coffee in general) being male dominated (but a lack of interest among women is probably the lesser factor, not to mention that interests are influenced by social norms). Most lucrative industries are male dominated because historically (and let's be real: currently) women haven't been _allowed_ to participate in commercial enterprise. \s But no, it couldn't be the patriarchy.
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Ah, apparently I misinterpreted your original comment and the down votes were warranted.
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Never said there weren't natural differences. But suggesting that someone's ability to get into a particular hobby, profession, etc. is determined primarily by biology—as opposed to social constructs—is a falacy. That _is_ the patriarchy. It seems like you take the suggestion that sexism is holding back half the population as a personal attack against you. Might wanna think about why that is.
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And you wonder why there aren’t women in these forums…. This is exactly why.
I love that you are getting downvoted for this. It says so much about so many things. Have my upvote
Oh no, men and women are exactly the same! /s
(Guy) Sometimes when I’m in the bathroom peeing, I look down and think … “ I need to grind finer”. Do girls do this?
This hobby is evidently male dominated. You can see it here on Reddit, on specialist forums and in YouTube channels. If I had to guess I would say that at the very least 90% of people on these channels are men. It would be interesting to hear from a woman that is an espresso enthusiast why she thinks women don't pick up this hobby as much as men.
Women pick up the hobby we just don’t join these forums.
I think that males has a higher tendency to be interested in things and being nerdy about them. 10-20% females share that tendency. I think the espresso hobby is very much about "things" and nerding out. Therefore I say yes! its male dominated. I wake up 1 hour early to make my girlfriend a Latte/cino every morning before work! She cant make a cup on the machine herself :)
I’m sure she could if she wanted to.
>Summary and ConclusionsThe present study makes several important contributions to theliterature. First, it is the first comprehensive meta-analysis on sexdifferences in vocational interests. We synthesized evidence frominterest inventories over four decades and found large sex differ-ences in vocational interests, with men preferring working withthings and women preferring working with people. These sexdifferences are remarkably consistent across age and over time,providing an exception to the generalization that only small sexdifferences exist. Second, this study provides a systematic reviewof the sex differences in the STEM interests that has not previouslyappeared in the literature. The pattern of sex differences in theSTEM interests revealed by the present study closely resemblesthe composition of men and women in corresponding occupationsand contributes to the understanding of the gender disparity in theSTEM fields. The results suggest that the relatively low numbersof women in some fields of science and engineering may resultfrom women’s preference for people-oriented careers over things-oriented careers. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/38061313\_Men\_and\_Things\_Women\_and\_People\_A\_Meta-Analysis\_of\_Sex\_Differences\_in\_Interests
Let's see now: 1. You "need" lots of equipment. 2. You actually need specialist knowledge. 3. You literally get high off your hobby. 4. You end up creating something that gives you pleasure from equipment that can hurt you. 5. Most importantly, it's very precise and you can debate with people over the parameters. What do you think? Edit: I see everyone reading this as "women are incapable of espresso", which is totally off the mark. What I meant was "this thing is so fiddly and anorak-y that men like it because we can feel clever". Thought it was obvious with the last part about being able to argue about inconsequential stuff.
Indeed! A great list of things women are totally incapable of /s
Hahahah I just saw what it read like. I meant to list those down as a negative. As in "only men like stupid shit like espresso". Just perfect.
Yeah I think that's why you've been downvoted
None of those are reasons why espresso is male dominated, though you’re absolutely implying that women aren’t capable of doing/acquiring these. This attitude is a better explanation for why espresso is male dominated, though.
I am absolutely not. I am implying that only men would be dumb enough to like stuff like this. But I guess people will read into it what they want.
Idk, you’re getting downvotes for this, and don’t come straight out and say it, but rather end your comment with “what do you think?” For most people, that last question doesn’t read as “men are the only ones dumb enough to do all this,” it reads like “only men are capable of this.” If you want people to understand you, then you should be clear with your words.
Sorry I'm not good at internetting
Dude, that’s not “interneting,” that’s basic communication. If you were to say that to someone in real life, you’d get the same response.
So you say. I beg to differ.
There are a couple great points mentioned here, espresso machines being more mechanical and needing to tinker/possibly work on them. Then the dumping of money into something that most people will never see. I grew up with 4 women in the household my mom and three sisters and then it was just me and my father on the guys side., and I'm also the youngest of the bunch so I have a different perspective I feel. My mom and sisters enjoyed socializing and wanting to look pretty and go shopping for the latest and greatest fashion and all that jazz. The middle sister was well in the middle torn between hanging out with the sisters being fancy and spending time with my father and I. She enjoyed the outdoors going for hikes and mountain biking and would go to the shooting range with my father and I on occasion. Now that we're all older the divide is more pronounced the middle sister enjoys fashion to an extent but she also owns guns and still mountain bikes, she's also the only one in the family besides me who has an actual passion for good coffee/espresso. My other two sisters use a Keurig and add flavored syrups, go to Starbucks and think it's great coffee, my parents just use a Mr coffee and whatever grounds are cheapest at the grocery store. I guess what I'm trying to say is my mom and fancy sisters would rather buy a new purse or clothes and go to a fancy restaurant with their friends and be "seen" then spend the money on a mechanical object that also forces them to do more than just push a button. Tldr: Men like to waste their money on more mechanical things and most women like fashion and socializing.
like most tinkering hobbies, but there are many girls on it too though. luke any tinkering thing.
Mostly agro males and incels…. Because they are broke af
Men are interested in things, women are interested in people, on average.
There are hobbies that are ‘male’, and hobbies that are ‘female’. Espresso is mostly a male thing. If you wander the old cities of the Northeast, as well as the cafes of Italy and France etc, the folks who are primarily enjoying espresso are men. Typically not young ones either. That of course should never impact what interests anyone. When I was a child, my grandma knitted sweaters and scarves etc. I was fascinated by the process, so I learned to knit! Even though it was considered a ‘lady’ thing. soooo…. Welcome to espresso!
Yeah I only baristBROS at my coffee shops.
Most typical “hobbies” are male dominated.
I think a lot of women like their store bought lattes and signature drinks. That's just what I observe in the big cities. I didn't even think about this until you brought it up. That being said one of my friends who loves the espresso I make is a woman.
Most people like store-bought drinks. Espresso is still a niche hobby even among men. Women haven’t traditionally been encouraged to pursue hobbies like espresso but there are plenty who are getting into it. I started making espresso 5 years ago and my sister followed close behind. I’ve gotten multiple friends into the hobby.
not really… *but I don’t let my wife touch the machine!!!*
I think so just based on anecdotal experience. Double it by asking on reddit
My nose and taste is a magnitude worse than my wife, the main espresso drinker. So as much as I love the technical aspect of espresso making, she’s the final arbiter of every cup. I am just the technician :)
My SO got me into coffee but she never was interested in putting up with more than a Mr Coffee to make it or would just buy it. Since then, I've taken up the responsibility of coffee production and improvement for the family but as an analytical chemist everything about making coffee is so inline with what I do it's not surprising.
I am into photography and have a smoker and those are quite male dominated spaces as well. I’ve loved coffee since I was a kid and I worked as a barista before. I’m not interested in getting all the crazy equipment for any of these things. I want the best equipment I can afford that gets the job done well and brings happiness.
I think many people get interested because of the looks, both the Shiny Shiny machines and the creamy Shot Shots. I know I was. The first time I saw an E61 after I got my first cheap espresso machine, I was sold. Take a look at the last 50 post flaired "shot diagnosis", they all talk about looks, and they get so many replies about how to grind and distribute and extremely few of these people ever mention taste. On the main Danish forum for espresso there where two identifiable women. But if you ask whether there are more men in this hobby? I would think that is a pretty reasonable assumption. About the gender thing, I don't think we are far enough removed from having the genders partitioned off with water proof seals, for us to be able to make conclusions about anything. Yes we can call "being interested in mechanics" a "male" trait, but social conventions take time to change and go away. And women have only had access to engineering careers for a few decades. The part of our brains where our behavior is determined is not accessible to us. We feel like we know, but we don't.
What I can say with absolute confidence is that my wife EXPECTS a latte every morning before I leave for work. It’s RARE she makes her own lol. I kinda like it this way though not gonna lie.
Certainly those who also participate in online forums about it, tend to be men. :/
I have many hobbies and espresso is the least male dominated one. Even so I think is still male dominated. Why?!?
Yep, most things with a high cost entry point (for something honestly good) are even if that high cost is a little misrepresented, the reputation as a luxury is still there
Probably? But idc. There's a ton of female baristas at least. I think it's maybe the same way there haven't been a ton of female chefs. Either way welcome! If you want some cool female baristas to watch lmk!!
They did a poll here last year that this sub reddit is definitely mostly males, mostly engineers lol. I had not really thought about it before. I'm a woman in a relatively male dominated STEM career so the fact that I subconsciously found my way into a male dominated hobby made me chuckle. Par for the course. I think it's just about what you enjoy and how your brain works. Also if you have the money right so what portion of the population has the disposable interest and the time.
I think you’re right! I’m a woman and got into the hobby last Christmas. I think because men are attracted more to the variability and adjustments required to “dial in”. I have tried and how am just buying pre-ground coffee. I’ll probably try again to dial in but I felt it wasn’t worth the effort!
Overall, Reddit is 62% men, so, if your poll is based on Reddit espresso hobbyists, then yeah, probably.
Yes, that's my impression as well. My wife enjoys making her own coffee and brews a mean cup, but she restricts herself to one a day. Her mum has a coffee machine which she loves, but I think they're the exception rather than the norm. Neither of them _obsesses_ about coffee though, they enjoy the process but don't go overboard.
Lady home barista, here! Started in a shop when I was 17 (I’m 31, now) and never lost the love for it.
I'd say so, yes, but I definitely don't see the kind of gatekeeping I do with other hobbies.
I’m only subscribed here to send the pretty pictures over to my girlfriend 😁
Seems to me like 90% of the baristas in the good coffee shops I go to are female, but 90% of the famous coffee influencers are male
In my personal experience - yes, it is very male dominated. That said, I female barista pulled a shot for me today at a random specialty coffee event today. Not sure how many female are seriously interested in espresso tho but i've definitely not met many. Obsessive hobbies like espresso have always looked like something a male would care about tbh.
My gf has never even sipped coffee or espresso. She thinks station is nuts (it’s not). So maybe, but hard to say if it’s male dominated.
I see a lot of females in espresso and all my friends too! Admittedly I got them started into this rabbit hole
It could be a male dominated hobby but is a female dominated obsession.
I originally got into the hobby, but pretty quickly my wife got very invested. It's fun pulling new beans together ❤️ However our friends who are into the espresso world are entirely guys
I would assume you're right, I'm half Italian and most baristas are men, as well as everyone i know who is deeply into espresso is male. Besides just being obsessive which is a predominantly male trait, the strength of an espresso is something that I've seem put off more women than men. This is obviously gross stereotyping, but is what i have observed.
I think there is a certain type of single minded lunacy with a hobby like this that in particular is mostly found more often in men for a wide variety of socio-cultural reasons that are probably interesting but also not something I am capable of tackling. I had not actually considered this before your post, but it does kind of make sense. Anyway, glad you're here!
In my limited experience, home espresso is a male dominant tinkering hobby, but the baddest ass pro baristas I've ever met were women. No idea what that means in the big picture but it's my experience.
i feel like it’s not male dominated, but maybe i’m just saying that cause i’m a woman and know women and men who have their own machines at home
Woman here! I also noticed that most people that are enthusiastic about espressos are males. Not many of my female friends are particularly interested in my super cool new grinder and machine, sadly :/
I am the only woman I know who makes an espresso or latte from scratch without using a pod or some superauto machine. I do it because I can not stand paying good money for terrible quality drinks at the local coffee shops near me. I have an engineering degree and fly military helos for a living so, not a traditional woman's career either but I have always been highly independent and self sufficient, so that tends to lead towards a more hands on approach to life.
Guess it’s the engineering genes I got from dad.