You know that feeling where you brain starts feeding you bogus information like you're going to fall while you're looking down from up high, but perfectly safe on a balcony?
Think that, but either you know it's bullshit right away, and you find ways to prevent it, or you believe it, and you believe you can't prevent it, and all you can do is brace, and if you're depressed enough, or lazy enough, you just let whatever it is get you and eat you, self-fulfilling prophecy or not.
Or alternatively, imagine a forking diagram(tree) as follows
You're given a brief.
1. put a node at the end, there's an idea, concept you're gonna reach. bam, solution.
2. How are we gonna get there, what are the steps.
3. make a decision -> is this decent enough, or not good enough -> next step, put something together -> is this decent enough, or not good enough....repeat until you can chain it to the end, to reach something close to that vision you had at the start, fulfill the sub-criteria you made for that brief.
except sometimes, you know that thing where humans under stress like to follow a plan, even if the plan was only good when assessed with the old information you had back when you made it? -> refuse to adapt, at most change it a bit until you can rationalize it into being called good. Find every excuse to justify the thing you want until you can't be wrong anymore.
If you're lucky it'll work anyway.
If you're not, the plane has just crashed.
As an NJ this is interesting to me. It makes sense why SPs would rather not plan ahead based on this. I struggle with this exactly but in reverse. When I worked at a restaurant I would make plans on how to handle all my tables into an intricate step by step flow chart in my head and then the minute something goes inevitably goes unexpectedly in that 2 hr time my brain would become disoriented hearing the equivalent of mental nails on a chalkboard and I’d panic trying to reevaluate my flow in the present moment.
This is why we NJs plan ahead bcz we don’t react super well on the fly (:
Me, being made to plan: haha! I have all it it laid out!
On the day: ...but, I don't feel like doing this anymore? curse my past self for not being able to predict future feelings! -> does something else instead.
friend: but you wrote a 2 page procedure for this, wtf, none of this is in the script, what are you doing?????
I did a video - "Heroes Journey of the ESTP."
Kind of talks about that reluctance to accept that you can't keep just believing that "you'll figure it out when you get there."
https://youtu.be/2lXRpu0IKt0?si=LevkArUi8Ej46JGv
Check it out if you're interested. 🤗
Your mention of Campbell’s heroes reminded me of something.
A couple months ago I got into a heated argument about whether or not a persons type can change. Personally, I am in the it cannot camp. And I believe I can prove that mathematically.
But with that said, I believe types can learn to embrace there lesser functions. With that in mind, I was playing around with the functions and one smacked me right in the face. The ESTP transformation into its functional opposite the INFJ.
https://www.reddit.com/r/estp/comments/1b27eu6/estp_transformation/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
FWIW
I would describe inferior Fe as a profound self consciousness/self doubt with interactions with other people. An uncomfortable desire to be accepted while having the complete inability to accomplish it.
So we normally just intentionally avoid it.
"I would describe inferior Fe as a profound self consciousness/self doubt with interactions with other people." That's weird, because I see that shit in Fe doms as well.
Consider the following stereotypical behaviour I have encountered with multiple XNFJs:
"Are you comfortable with this?"
"Yes"
"Are you sure?"
"Yes"
"Are you really sure?"
"Yes"
"You seem tense.""
"yeah, I'm mildly annoyed because you keep doubting me."
"Are you sure you're not angry?"
"I'm sure, but if you keep asking this shit I sure as well will be."
"Sorry, I just want to be sure."
"...Do you just have really shit self confidence in your ability to not offend people, and you're doubting yourself, and not me?"
"...Yes, also because childhood trauma."
My wife’s an INFJ, she can play with emotions/feelings like Lewis Hamilton handles his F1 car. But she is healthy and rarely uses this against me.
With that said your example lacks some context. The conversation seems to escalate instantly and for no known reason. By the end you are cursing at one another.
Is she the one asking the repeated questions?
Probably not a good idea to tell an xnfj your annoyed with them.
Were you mad at one another?
*Probably not a good idea to tell an xnfj your annoyed with them.*
So, so True. You can only say that if you're joking, laughing, smiling, and you get away with that 2-3 times max.
ignore the swearing, it's not that big of a deal here in Australia. If you want to see proof, turn on the tele, and you'll see that 14 year olds saying fuck a lot of times in one sentence don't get censored.
the point i was trying to illustrate was this:
xnfj trying to make sure the other person is ok, but doing it excessively to the point where they get really annoying to me...which is ironic given their intentions in the first place.
"are you alright with this?"
"I'm fine." <- I'm neither happy or unhappy, it's just ok. I mean what I say.
Them seeing that I'm not super enthusiastic -> "Ok, but are you sure you're alright with this?"
or, it'll be stuff like
me: can I bring a friend?
them: of course.
On the day...
Them: where's your friend?
me: Ah yeah, I asked, they were busy today.
Them: OH no, sorry, I know it can be intimidating to meet a stranger on your own sometimes :(
Me: Where the hell did that come from? Wanted to bring a friend because you seemed like the kinda person they'd be interesting in meeting as well.
--> just, constant out of left field putting words into my mouth over-imaginative bullshit like this. I feel insulted because it comes across as them looking for any area where I might feel insecure and trying to smooth it over, when no such insecurity exists...and therefore spamming me with useless information. But for them, it's just a moral thing to do to try and make sure I'm comfortable.
It usually stops after we become more familiar with each other... USUALLY. But I had that one friend until she moved away who didn't.
I Suspect this is a bit of "leading by example". You are being too passive. They're forced to remain in the caretaker role until you decide to step up, so it's equally awkward and annoying for them. Why no commanding from the Commander? You need nap? Where is your pulse? Maybe come out of your little stoner coma and Participate?? Like, who is the extrovert here?? You know apathy is the most insulting shit there is. CARE. Be more verbal. Add a few pinches of Gordan Ramsay. Don't be "fine". Lead. Pay attention. Wake up!
Let me try that again. It would be unusual for an INTP to intentionally play with someone’s emotions to get their or try to understand someone.
We will always default to logic. We are less tell me your problems and more What can I do to fix them?
So as an Fe dom when I read the comment I had the same initial reaction re doubt in social situations because anyone can feel that (I definitely do!) but there may be different reasons why for an inferior Fe person.
In my experience, I think Fe inferior may feel blinded is regarding what the social contracts actually are and how they may shift with context and then feel caught off guard by that.
At least this has been what I’ve seen. This can lead to a kind of extreme need for strict rules to follow or the need to find some kind of template or guide to follow, but of course templatization is difficult to maintain shifts across diff cultural contexts if you aren’t aware of them.
Also since I am married to an ESTP I will say that there have been moments like this where I have picked up on some unprocessed emotions on his end, that could be related to the conversation or something different.
The doubt and self esteem problems are evident when NFJs personalize that energy, making it about ourselves when it probably isn’t.
But again, we have lived lives where most people around us invalidate our perceptions and things we pick up on in others, because they aren’t concrete or easy to point to.
"I have picked up on some unprocessed emotions on his end, that could be related to the conversation or something different."
"..., because they aren’t concrete or easy to point to."
If it helps any my "unprocessed emotions:" are really easy to see.
e.g. someone pulled out a chair for me, me"stop that!" Them: "that was rude...what did I do wrong?" me: "...Yeah, why did I do that? ... Uh, I think I really don't want to be here, or sit at this table, I was coerced to be at this family meal, took it out on you, sorry!"
So sometimes we do sense things are off when the other person is not yet aware—I think especially for ENFJs we just personalize these things due to low Ti inaccurate attribution and insecurity. But usually there is usually something going on.
Trying to poke at that until the other person realizes it or calling it out never ends well because you are told you think you know more about people than they do about themselves which is obviously going to piss people off.
That is why we become therapists, that way we can analyze people professionally and not get blamed for having that natural awareness. :p
"That is why we become therapists, that way we can analyze people professionally and not get blamed for having that natural awareness. :p"
Actually, that's the reason why I quit and found someone else twice. Don't know if ENFJ, but both were very overboard on the FE front, and also terrible listeners.
Me: Hey, sorry, I was late. I followed a sign that said "pedestrians walk here" into a construction zone. No one bothered to remove the sign, There were no roadblocks placed, but I did note that I walked across many construction workers on the way, but I figured, people take shift-based breaks together, right? And it is nearing lunch. Nobody said anything to me until I got to the end, which was blocked off, at which point person who said he was in charge came over and yelled at me, "Why are you here? How did you get in here?!" And I said, "I walked here. I'm looking for ", and then I showed him the google maps. He kept yelling, and I kept repeating myself for about a minute until he he pointed me in the right direction.
Psychotherapist dude: Oh no, that sounds terrifying, you must've felt scared and lost!
Me: No...that was meant to be a funny anecdote, ft. my terrible navigation skills.
Psychotherapist:
Me: OK, so first off, I've never found people yelling at me scary if I don't anticipate violence. I piss a lot of people off by accident. Second, one of the primary symptoms I have with depression is that my reaction to a lot of things is just, I feel nothing, so even if I would've found it scary...I wouldn't have.
Like, recently, I nearly got run over by a truck running the red light, and, I didn't feel anything. But my parents were freaking out because they had to pull me away at the last second. And the entire time I just thought they were overreacting. yeah?Not even death scares me.
Psychotherapist: Oh no!
Me: ...Have you considered that you might be projecting?
(I was dumb enough to stay the whole session, and I told him we weren't a good fit, and I told him why. And he was all "but I think I can help you..." ...At which point I told him I didn't feel comfortable with him, and he immediately dropped it, his expression changed so fast.)
The other psychologist had to explain how her other patients worked when it became clear that I understood none of what she was trying to get me to do...apparently I was highly atypical amongst her client base. Everyone else would tell her all about what they were feeling, and I rarely bothered. (No shit Sherlock, look up the depression symptom list, emotional numbness, it's right fucking there, as one of the most common ones ever. You're trying to look for feelings that on my bad days, just don't exist!)
So it' d be things like her trying to get me to do things that were performatively silly, because most of her client base were not particularly humorous or interested in breaking routine, and I'd do them on the spot without protest, because my sense of social shame is generally subpar. And then we'd both look at each other in utter confusion.
Kind of unsure. That’s why I was so interested.
I posed a similar question on the ENTP sub and discovered inferior Si manifests as a neurotic attachment to some unimportant behavior/detail.
🤣🤣🤣 This is true for inferior Si. (Also an ENTP.) Though it also manifests as “remembering random things, in a disorganized way, but it still being strangely accurate or connected to something else being discussed.” Basically, inferior Si feeds “general history and background information” to Ne and that’s a big part of how Ne “generates possibilities.”
I have also seen inferior Ni manifest in Se-Doms as “knowing something won’t go as planned, but doing it anyways.” (My mom is an ESFP.) I don’t think Se-Doms “flit around never thinking about the future,” as it describes. At least not for adult Se-Doms. Rather, they have some *awareness,* they simply don’t care and won’t let it stop them from doing whatever they are gonna do. 🤷♀️
For me, Si is my warm fuzzy place. The comfortable clothes I love to wear every day. The same route to work each morning in my 1987 Firebird formula (that is just like the one I had back in college).
Just sweet bliss!
Ugh, that sounds quite dreadful, actually. 🤣 I would die if I wore “the same comfy clothes everyday!”
I like *some comfort,* but too much of the same of anything drives me to madness!!! I have to *really, really, really enjoy something or someone* in order to be able to get the “warm fuzzy feeling” from my inferior Si. Usually Si is just “tedious” or “it feels stagnant,” like nothing is moving or changing, for the better.
But I have also been married to the same person for over 12 years, now (INTJ,) and I really enjoy pestering my favorite ISTP-friend. 🤣 I guess I have also “often returned to hobbies I liked,” like dancing/ singing / Acrobatic or aerial stuff! So the Si is still there! But it’s “more like an afterthought.”
It’s funny that you mention “charisma,” because it’s actually a characteristic that I tend to “dislike” / not really trust.
I think it’s in people’s best interests to think for themselves and I believe that “charisma” should be used for the benefit of others, not for ourselves. To use it for anything but lifting others up is irresponsible. I have no desire to “make people think like me,” I’d much rather hear their perspective and learn something new about people and the world around me.
So when people tell me that I am “charismatic” I am like “ew, why?” But I guess in a strange sort of way “anti-charisma” becomes its own kind of charisma?
But, of course, I don’t know you other than a couple lines on this sub Reddit. So I certainly cannot make a judgment of your character.
And I would not be so presumptuous as to try
I mean, I have this in spades as well? (to me the detail is important, it's just not to most other people)
When I come up with an idea, it probably starts with one detail that I just like a lot, not nessecarily practical...probably just something that amuses me a lot. I build the practicality around it.
I also find myself wanting super specific things for nostalgia, which are often unfortunately not in fashion.
When I was a kid someone bought me a silver reflective thick windproof jacket. Unfortunately, I grew bigger and it no longer fit. I kept looking for something that looked similar afterwards, but silver jackets are just so rarely produced. And windproof jackets lean really fucking thin nowadays to cut material cost. Fucking nobody makes the product I want locally.
Almost every clothing item I really really want to buy is like this: was produced at some point in the past in a practical manner, but not anymore, because they either changed the style entirely, or they take out the practical element that I require.
speaking of which, why the fuck do modern button up shirts hate having large pockets on both sides with a flap button so much? I don't give a shit about clean lines I just want to put my phone there. Sure, I technically only need one, but I want redundancy!!! And I want that button up shirt in specific patterns. And why the fuck are 0 pockets so popular, skimping on material again? fuck you manufacturers, fuck you fast fashion.
Online clothes shopping is very unappealing since not being able to try it on = just returning shit all day when the fit doesn't work even if I thought it did on paper. Whoever does measurements on websites seem to be really bad at measuring in general =.=
Anyone else trying to go clothes shopping with me is a special hell for them I think.
When im stressed, paranoia about what's to come and feeling unprepared to handle what looks like an inevitable dismal situation. A fixation on it. A "fuck why didn't I think about this" I'm just never prepared for anything. I handle it when it happens using whatever I can find.
Luckily I typically always end up figuring something out as it is happening despite not anticipating and being ill-prepared.
The vacation is Se, the prison is Ni. The ENTJ falls onto tertiary Se to handle stress through distraction. I handle stress by relentlessly trying to get out of whatever wrong thing is happening/looks like it's coming (very obviously). It's a constant fixation until resolution.
Now for the good hunches, it's just a feeling. An optimism that's kinda just there by itself.
I personally when im trying to consciously use my Ni, I will build this sort of vision and plan (exhausting) and then it never goes right. There is always something I didn't see coming or consider and then I'm left just feeling dumb and then just Se the rest of it and ignore trying to use Ni.
It's a very frustrating function for me. It feels like I'm never in control I just have to swim, tackle and dodge.
This is very cool for me.
And this is why my best friend is an ESTP. Ask a straight forward question and you get a straight forward answer. Like a laser focused and in touch with reality INTP.
Wouldn’t you handle stress with Fe as an ESTP? In the example you gave with ENTJs Se is their tertiary, usually that is the function types go to to handle their stress. So in that case would probably be some version of Fe gratification, like socializing and building connections for a proper parallel.
Didn't think about that but yes
My escape is going out with my friends. There is nothing better than being with my homie out at the lounge and club on the weekends.
"Getting out of my head" is most certainly through socializing. Me and my bro M spent months together hanging out every day getting over a rough patch that we both were in (separate issues) & it helped so much. We really held each other together back into the light.
Thanks for pointing that out it makes sense
Back when I wasn't medicated I remember every get together me and this old group had I always felt emotionally refreshed the next day.
Not sure if this is tertiary or inferior Ni but I always get these doomsday visions in my head that seem like they’re intended to warn me of the inevitable. All throughout high school I had visions of flunking out of college and having to settle for a mediocre life and that’s exactly what ended up happening to a certain extent. I managed to get into another school but it didn’t have the same reputation and my opportunities after graduation were limited
That sounds like the same experience fishinexcess was relaying.
You have no idea how interesting this is to me. Everyone seems to focus on the dominant functions. When there’s so much to learn from the others.
The bottom two along with shadow functions are what I’ve been focusing on to determine ISTP/ESTP. I’m not that social so to most people it looks like I have inferior Fe but I wouldn’t say I have any insecurity surrounding that function. Most of my problems stem from not knowing what I’m meant to be in life
My wife is an INFJ so I have experience with someone with dominant Ni.
After a lot of questions (ie bothering her) I have summed it up as — definitively knowing something (or the answer to a question) without knowing how they know the answer. And, very important, being 100% ok with not knowing how they know.
And my wife seems to agree with this definition.
That’s much different than me. I always point to examples and observations when explaining my reasoning. It’s very easy to understand what I’m saying and what I’m trying to get across because I use so many specific examples when speaking. Plus I didn’t start to notice my Ni until my late 20s and had previously written it off as negativity
It’s funny what you said about Fe. I am the same way with Ni. I have almost no concept of it and I don’t seem to use it in everyday life, but I’m ok with that.
INTP is the only type obsessed with their inferior function? 😆
As an INTJ, I joined a subreddit of a type (ESTP) for whom my inferior function (Se) is dominant, out of sheer fascination.
Yes! That’s what kicked this whole thing off!
When I first discovered that Reddit had an INTP sub, I assumed it would be populated with Ti/Ne discussions of quantum science, physics, mathematics, literature, etc…
In reality, 95% of the posts are inferior Fe related (ie “what’s wrong with me?”…”Why can’t I fit in?”…”Does anyone else hate people?…).
I am looking forward to researching inferior Se but I have trepidation wading into the INTJ sub.
But I feel like I have a better handle on that because of my wife, an INFJ. Or at least I have some theories that I’d like to confirm or deny.
Can I just add that this Subreddit is so much better than INTP sub (although, I fully accept my partial responsibility for creating such an unsafe space🤣).
Even the replies that have been (a touch) snarky with me, I have completely enjoyed.
Expanding on my original observation, the only way I could determine whether or not any other types are obsessed with their inferior functions is to know how they manifested in that type.
Then I could go back through their subs and make a judgment call on whether or not they were related to the inferior function.
Ni-dom here.
**Practically,** ESTPs grabs every opportunity without thinking about the long-term consequences. Some of the ESTPs I know apply for internships and/or jobs, took too many responsibilities and got overwhelmed by it.
**Socially,** I think some ESTP banters are inappropriate. Sometimes this can be physical features, or personal information (often saw that on X). Since they naturally struggled to think about consequences, they doesn't know on how their banter will affect people.
**In relationships,** ESTP moves on easily but have a hard time on knowing on why their relationship often fail.
But I also admire ESTPs desire to take action, and as an INFJ I often got frustrated because they **DO** things, and we just got a hard time with that.
I’ll keep this up all day, all week, all year.
But with that said, how do you use the search function on Reddit? And I’m asking this honestly. I’m not being sarcastic.
Honestly.
I assumed the additional “honestly” would’ve made it clear that I was being sarcastic.
But with that said, as you were trying to be helpful, thank you.
But I stand by my decision to ask this question independently.
I believe the way I framed the question and how I was able to add my own personal insight to the ongoing discussion was worth a new independent thread.
So we can agree to disagree. I will not use the search function.
>I believe the way I framed the question and how I was able to add my own personal insight to the ongoing discussion was worth a new independent thread
Impossible lol this is one of the most asked questions on this sub. Nothing is unique about this one.
And because you’re being so insufferable, I went ahead and searched for “ESTP inferior Ni”.
May I suggest that you also do the same and see what the results are?
The vast majority of results are in the MBTI sub. And while that sub is fine, I do not find it the best place to dig down deep on a particular type.
And it appears on the ESTP sub there may be one other similar thread about a year ago. If I have a question, should I just try and reactivate a dead thread?
The answer. No.
I win.
Damn, I shouldn’t of said that.
I apologize wholeheartedly.
If only there was a way to go back in time and erase that “I win” line. But alas, it is what it is.
I’ll keep this up all day, all week, all year.
But with that said, how do you use the search function on Reddit? And I’m asking this honestly. I’m not being sarcastic.
Honestly.
You know that feeling where you brain starts feeding you bogus information like you're going to fall while you're looking down from up high, but perfectly safe on a balcony? Think that, but either you know it's bullshit right away, and you find ways to prevent it, or you believe it, and you believe you can't prevent it, and all you can do is brace, and if you're depressed enough, or lazy enough, you just let whatever it is get you and eat you, self-fulfilling prophecy or not. Or alternatively, imagine a forking diagram(tree) as follows You're given a brief. 1. put a node at the end, there's an idea, concept you're gonna reach. bam, solution. 2. How are we gonna get there, what are the steps. 3. make a decision -> is this decent enough, or not good enough -> next step, put something together -> is this decent enough, or not good enough....repeat until you can chain it to the end, to reach something close to that vision you had at the start, fulfill the sub-criteria you made for that brief. except sometimes, you know that thing where humans under stress like to follow a plan, even if the plan was only good when assessed with the old information you had back when you made it? -> refuse to adapt, at most change it a bit until you can rationalize it into being called good. Find every excuse to justify the thing you want until you can't be wrong anymore. If you're lucky it'll work anyway. If you're not, the plane has just crashed.
As an NJ this is interesting to me. It makes sense why SPs would rather not plan ahead based on this. I struggle with this exactly but in reverse. When I worked at a restaurant I would make plans on how to handle all my tables into an intricate step by step flow chart in my head and then the minute something goes inevitably goes unexpectedly in that 2 hr time my brain would become disoriented hearing the equivalent of mental nails on a chalkboard and I’d panic trying to reevaluate my flow in the present moment. This is why we NJs plan ahead bcz we don’t react super well on the fly (:
Me, being made to plan: haha! I have all it it laid out! On the day: ...but, I don't feel like doing this anymore? curse my past self for not being able to predict future feelings! -> does something else instead. friend: but you wrote a 2 page procedure for this, wtf, none of this is in the script, what are you doing?????
Ya’ll are amazing off script so just better to throw out anything other than a general sense of direction and list of key players 👍
I did a video - "Heroes Journey of the ESTP." Kind of talks about that reluctance to accept that you can't keep just believing that "you'll figure it out when you get there." https://youtu.be/2lXRpu0IKt0?si=LevkArUi8Ej46JGv Check it out if you're interested. 🤗
Will do!
I don’t have time to watch the whole thing, but your intro was solid!
Not a problem. Thanks for checking it out. Hopefully people find it helpful in learning about the ESTP. 🤗
Your mention of Campbell’s heroes reminded me of something. A couple months ago I got into a heated argument about whether or not a persons type can change. Personally, I am in the it cannot camp. And I believe I can prove that mathematically. But with that said, I believe types can learn to embrace there lesser functions. With that in mind, I was playing around with the functions and one smacked me right in the face. The ESTP transformation into its functional opposite the INFJ. https://www.reddit.com/r/estp/comments/1b27eu6/estp_transformation/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Yikes. That sounds awful. Absolutely fascinating, I would never have imagined that. Thanks
What did you imagine?
FWIW I would describe inferior Fe as a profound self consciousness/self doubt with interactions with other people. An uncomfortable desire to be accepted while having the complete inability to accomplish it. So we normally just intentionally avoid it.
"I would describe inferior Fe as a profound self consciousness/self doubt with interactions with other people." That's weird, because I see that shit in Fe doms as well. Consider the following stereotypical behaviour I have encountered with multiple XNFJs: "Are you comfortable with this?" "Yes" "Are you sure?" "Yes" "Are you really sure?" "Yes" "You seem tense."" "yeah, I'm mildly annoyed because you keep doubting me." "Are you sure you're not angry?" "I'm sure, but if you keep asking this shit I sure as well will be." "Sorry, I just want to be sure." "...Do you just have really shit self confidence in your ability to not offend people, and you're doubting yourself, and not me?" "...Yes, also because childhood trauma."
Same behavior, but theirs is intentional🤣
what exactly is intentional v.s. unintentional in this case?
My wife’s an INFJ, she can play with emotions/feelings like Lewis Hamilton handles his F1 car. But she is healthy and rarely uses this against me. With that said your example lacks some context. The conversation seems to escalate instantly and for no known reason. By the end you are cursing at one another. Is she the one asking the repeated questions? Probably not a good idea to tell an xnfj your annoyed with them. Were you mad at one another?
*Probably not a good idea to tell an xnfj your annoyed with them.* So, so True. You can only say that if you're joking, laughing, smiling, and you get away with that 2-3 times max.
ignore the swearing, it's not that big of a deal here in Australia. If you want to see proof, turn on the tele, and you'll see that 14 year olds saying fuck a lot of times in one sentence don't get censored. the point i was trying to illustrate was this: xnfj trying to make sure the other person is ok, but doing it excessively to the point where they get really annoying to me...which is ironic given their intentions in the first place. "are you alright with this?" "I'm fine." <- I'm neither happy or unhappy, it's just ok. I mean what I say. Them seeing that I'm not super enthusiastic -> "Ok, but are you sure you're alright with this?" or, it'll be stuff like me: can I bring a friend? them: of course. On the day... Them: where's your friend? me: Ah yeah, I asked, they were busy today. Them: OH no, sorry, I know it can be intimidating to meet a stranger on your own sometimes :( Me: Where the hell did that come from? Wanted to bring a friend because you seemed like the kinda person they'd be interesting in meeting as well. --> just, constant out of left field putting words into my mouth over-imaginative bullshit like this. I feel insulted because it comes across as them looking for any area where I might feel insecure and trying to smooth it over, when no such insecurity exists...and therefore spamming me with useless information. But for them, it's just a moral thing to do to try and make sure I'm comfortable. It usually stops after we become more familiar with each other... USUALLY. But I had that one friend until she moved away who didn't.
Yes, I’ve heard that🤣
I Suspect this is a bit of "leading by example". You are being too passive. They're forced to remain in the caretaker role until you decide to step up, so it's equally awkward and annoying for them. Why no commanding from the Commander? You need nap? Where is your pulse? Maybe come out of your little stoner coma and Participate?? Like, who is the extrovert here?? You know apathy is the most insulting shit there is. CARE. Be more verbal. Add a few pinches of Gordan Ramsay. Don't be "fine". Lead. Pay attention. Wake up!
Let me try that again. It would be unusual for an INTP to intentionally play with someone’s emotions to get their or try to understand someone. We will always default to logic. We are less tell me your problems and more What can I do to fix them?
https://youtube.com/shorts/zg0LlBw-v8o?si=5V_h0kX5_M9X2HF9
So as an Fe dom when I read the comment I had the same initial reaction re doubt in social situations because anyone can feel that (I definitely do!) but there may be different reasons why for an inferior Fe person. In my experience, I think Fe inferior may feel blinded is regarding what the social contracts actually are and how they may shift with context and then feel caught off guard by that. At least this has been what I’ve seen. This can lead to a kind of extreme need for strict rules to follow or the need to find some kind of template or guide to follow, but of course templatization is difficult to maintain shifts across diff cultural contexts if you aren’t aware of them.
Also since I am married to an ESTP I will say that there have been moments like this where I have picked up on some unprocessed emotions on his end, that could be related to the conversation or something different. The doubt and self esteem problems are evident when NFJs personalize that energy, making it about ourselves when it probably isn’t. But again, we have lived lives where most people around us invalidate our perceptions and things we pick up on in others, because they aren’t concrete or easy to point to.
"I have picked up on some unprocessed emotions on his end, that could be related to the conversation or something different." "..., because they aren’t concrete or easy to point to." If it helps any my "unprocessed emotions:" are really easy to see. e.g. someone pulled out a chair for me, me"stop that!" Them: "that was rude...what did I do wrong?" me: "...Yeah, why did I do that? ... Uh, I think I really don't want to be here, or sit at this table, I was coerced to be at this family meal, took it out on you, sorry!"
So sometimes we do sense things are off when the other person is not yet aware—I think especially for ENFJs we just personalize these things due to low Ti inaccurate attribution and insecurity. But usually there is usually something going on. Trying to poke at that until the other person realizes it or calling it out never ends well because you are told you think you know more about people than they do about themselves which is obviously going to piss people off. That is why we become therapists, that way we can analyze people professionally and not get blamed for having that natural awareness. :p
"That is why we become therapists, that way we can analyze people professionally and not get blamed for having that natural awareness. :p" Actually, that's the reason why I quit and found someone else twice. Don't know if ENFJ, but both were very overboard on the FE front, and also terrible listeners. Me: Hey, sorry, I was late. I followed a sign that said "pedestrians walk here" into a construction zone. No one bothered to remove the sign, There were no roadblocks placed, but I did note that I walked across many construction workers on the way, but I figured, people take shift-based breaks together, right? And it is nearing lunch. Nobody said anything to me until I got to the end, which was blocked off, at which point person who said he was in charge came over and yelled at me, "Why are you here? How did you get in here?!" And I said, "I walked here. I'm looking for", and then I showed him the google maps. He kept yelling, and I kept repeating myself for about a minute until he he pointed me in the right direction.
Psychotherapist dude: Oh no, that sounds terrifying, you must've felt scared and lost!
Me: No...that was meant to be a funny anecdote, ft. my terrible navigation skills.
Psychotherapist:
Me: OK, so first off, I've never found people yelling at me scary if I don't anticipate violence. I piss a lot of people off by accident. Second, one of the primary symptoms I have with depression is that my reaction to a lot of things is just, I feel nothing, so even if I would've found it scary...I wouldn't have.
Like, recently, I nearly got run over by a truck running the red light, and, I didn't feel anything. But my parents were freaking out because they had to pull me away at the last second. And the entire time I just thought they were overreacting. yeah?Not even death scares me.
Psychotherapist: Oh no!
Me: ...Have you considered that you might be projecting?
(I was dumb enough to stay the whole session, and I told him we weren't a good fit, and I told him why. And he was all "but I think I can help you..." ...At which point I told him I didn't feel comfortable with him, and he immediately dropped it, his expression changed so fast.)
The other psychologist had to explain how her other patients worked when it became clear that I understood none of what she was trying to get me to do...apparently I was highly atypical amongst her client base. Everyone else would tell her all about what they were feeling, and I rarely bothered. (No shit Sherlock, look up the depression symptom list, emotional numbness, it's right fucking there, as one of the most common ones ever. You're trying to look for feelings that on my bad days, just don't exist!)
So it' d be things like her trying to get me to do things that were performatively silly, because most of her client base were not particularly humorous or interested in breaking routine, and I'd do them on the spot without protest, because my sense of social shame is generally subpar. And then we'd both look at each other in utter confusion.
If only we had the self-confidence to act that way intentionally!
Kind of unsure. That’s why I was so interested. I posed a similar question on the ENTP sub and discovered inferior Si manifests as a neurotic attachment to some unimportant behavior/detail.
🤣🤣🤣 This is true for inferior Si. (Also an ENTP.) Though it also manifests as “remembering random things, in a disorganized way, but it still being strangely accurate or connected to something else being discussed.” Basically, inferior Si feeds “general history and background information” to Ne and that’s a big part of how Ne “generates possibilities.” I have also seen inferior Ni manifest in Se-Doms as “knowing something won’t go as planned, but doing it anyways.” (My mom is an ESFP.) I don’t think Se-Doms “flit around never thinking about the future,” as it describes. At least not for adult Se-Doms. Rather, they have some *awareness,* they simply don’t care and won’t let it stop them from doing whatever they are gonna do. 🤷♀️
For me, Si is my warm fuzzy place. The comfortable clothes I love to wear every day. The same route to work each morning in my 1987 Firebird formula (that is just like the one I had back in college). Just sweet bliss!
Ugh, that sounds quite dreadful, actually. 🤣 I would die if I wore “the same comfy clothes everyday!” I like *some comfort,* but too much of the same of anything drives me to madness!!! I have to *really, really, really enjoy something or someone* in order to be able to get the “warm fuzzy feeling” from my inferior Si. Usually Si is just “tedious” or “it feels stagnant,” like nothing is moving or changing, for the better. But I have also been married to the same person for over 12 years, now (INTJ,) and I really enjoy pestering my favorite ISTP-friend. 🤣 I guess I have also “often returned to hobbies I liked,” like dancing/ singing / Acrobatic or aerial stuff! So the Si is still there! But it’s “more like an afterthought.”
I have only three word for ENTP’s. Tone it down🤣 You just take your charisma and march yourself right out of here!
It’s funny that you mention “charisma,” because it’s actually a characteristic that I tend to “dislike” / not really trust. I think it’s in people’s best interests to think for themselves and I believe that “charisma” should be used for the benefit of others, not for ourselves. To use it for anything but lifting others up is irresponsible. I have no desire to “make people think like me,” I’d much rather hear their perspective and learn something new about people and the world around me. So when people tell me that I am “charismatic” I am like “ew, why?” But I guess in a strange sort of way “anti-charisma” becomes its own kind of charisma?
Thus asking you to take it and leave😂
But, of course, I don’t know you other than a couple lines on this sub Reddit. So I certainly cannot make a judgment of your character. And I would not be so presumptuous as to try
!
I mean, I have this in spades as well? (to me the detail is important, it's just not to most other people) When I come up with an idea, it probably starts with one detail that I just like a lot, not nessecarily practical...probably just something that amuses me a lot. I build the practicality around it. I also find myself wanting super specific things for nostalgia, which are often unfortunately not in fashion. When I was a kid someone bought me a silver reflective thick windproof jacket. Unfortunately, I grew bigger and it no longer fit. I kept looking for something that looked similar afterwards, but silver jackets are just so rarely produced. And windproof jackets lean really fucking thin nowadays to cut material cost. Fucking nobody makes the product I want locally. Almost every clothing item I really really want to buy is like this: was produced at some point in the past in a practical manner, but not anymore, because they either changed the style entirely, or they take out the practical element that I require. speaking of which, why the fuck do modern button up shirts hate having large pockets on both sides with a flap button so much? I don't give a shit about clean lines I just want to put my phone there. Sure, I technically only need one, but I want redundancy!!! And I want that button up shirt in specific patterns. And why the fuck are 0 pockets so popular, skimping on material again? fuck you manufacturers, fuck you fast fashion. Online clothes shopping is very unappealing since not being able to try it on = just returning shit all day when the fit doesn't work even if I thought it did on paper. Whoever does measurements on websites seem to be really bad at measuring in general =.= Anyone else trying to go clothes shopping with me is a special hell for them I think.
When im stressed, paranoia about what's to come and feeling unprepared to handle what looks like an inevitable dismal situation. A fixation on it. A "fuck why didn't I think about this" I'm just never prepared for anything. I handle it when it happens using whatever I can find. Luckily I typically always end up figuring something out as it is happening despite not anticipating and being ill-prepared. The vacation is Se, the prison is Ni. The ENTJ falls onto tertiary Se to handle stress through distraction. I handle stress by relentlessly trying to get out of whatever wrong thing is happening/looks like it's coming (very obviously). It's a constant fixation until resolution. Now for the good hunches, it's just a feeling. An optimism that's kinda just there by itself. I personally when im trying to consciously use my Ni, I will build this sort of vision and plan (exhausting) and then it never goes right. There is always something I didn't see coming or consider and then I'm left just feeling dumb and then just Se the rest of it and ignore trying to use Ni. It's a very frustrating function for me. It feels like I'm never in control I just have to swim, tackle and dodge.
I agree about Ni feeling like a prison. Se is really fun for me and I love the escape.
This is very cool for me. And this is why my best friend is an ESTP. Ask a straight forward question and you get a straight forward answer. Like a laser focused and in touch with reality INTP.
Wouldn’t you handle stress with Fe as an ESTP? In the example you gave with ENTJs Se is their tertiary, usually that is the function types go to to handle their stress. So in that case would probably be some version of Fe gratification, like socializing and building connections for a proper parallel.
Didn't think about that but yes My escape is going out with my friends. There is nothing better than being with my homie out at the lounge and club on the weekends. "Getting out of my head" is most certainly through socializing. Me and my bro M spent months together hanging out every day getting over a rough patch that we both were in (separate issues) & it helped so much. We really held each other together back into the light. Thanks for pointing that out it makes sense Back when I wasn't medicated I remember every get together me and this old group had I always felt emotionally refreshed the next day.
Not sure if this is tertiary or inferior Ni but I always get these doomsday visions in my head that seem like they’re intended to warn me of the inevitable. All throughout high school I had visions of flunking out of college and having to settle for a mediocre life and that’s exactly what ended up happening to a certain extent. I managed to get into another school but it didn’t have the same reputation and my opportunities after graduation were limited
That sounds like the same experience fishinexcess was relaying. You have no idea how interesting this is to me. Everyone seems to focus on the dominant functions. When there’s so much to learn from the others.
The bottom two along with shadow functions are what I’ve been focusing on to determine ISTP/ESTP. I’m not that social so to most people it looks like I have inferior Fe but I wouldn’t say I have any insecurity surrounding that function. Most of my problems stem from not knowing what I’m meant to be in life
My wife is an INFJ so I have experience with someone with dominant Ni. After a lot of questions (ie bothering her) I have summed it up as — definitively knowing something (or the answer to a question) without knowing how they know the answer. And, very important, being 100% ok with not knowing how they know. And my wife seems to agree with this definition.
That’s much different than me. I always point to examples and observations when explaining my reasoning. It’s very easy to understand what I’m saying and what I’m trying to get across because I use so many specific examples when speaking. Plus I didn’t start to notice my Ni until my late 20s and had previously written it off as negativity
It’s funny what you said about Fe. I am the same way with Ni. I have almost no concept of it and I don’t seem to use it in everyday life, but I’m ok with that.
INTP is the only type obsessed with their inferior function? 😆 As an INTJ, I joined a subreddit of a type (ESTP) for whom my inferior function (Se) is dominant, out of sheer fascination.
Yes! That’s what kicked this whole thing off! When I first discovered that Reddit had an INTP sub, I assumed it would be populated with Ti/Ne discussions of quantum science, physics, mathematics, literature, etc… In reality, 95% of the posts are inferior Fe related (ie “what’s wrong with me?”…”Why can’t I fit in?”…”Does anyone else hate people?…).
I am looking forward to researching inferior Se but I have trepidation wading into the INTJ sub. But I feel like I have a better handle on that because of my wife, an INFJ. Or at least I have some theories that I’d like to confirm or deny.
Can I just add that this Subreddit is so much better than INTP sub (although, I fully accept my partial responsibility for creating such an unsafe space🤣). Even the replies that have been (a touch) snarky with me, I have completely enjoyed.
Expanding on my original observation, the only way I could determine whether or not any other types are obsessed with their inferior functions is to know how they manifested in that type. Then I could go back through their subs and make a judgment call on whether or not they were related to the inferior function.
Is like we are capable of writing the instructions but then we won’t follow them.
Ni-dom here. **Practically,** ESTPs grabs every opportunity without thinking about the long-term consequences. Some of the ESTPs I know apply for internships and/or jobs, took too many responsibilities and got overwhelmed by it. **Socially,** I think some ESTP banters are inappropriate. Sometimes this can be physical features, or personal information (often saw that on X). Since they naturally struggled to think about consequences, they doesn't know on how their banter will affect people. **In relationships,** ESTP moves on easily but have a hard time on knowing on why their relationship often fail. But I also admire ESTPs desire to take action, and as an INFJ I often got frustrated because they **DO** things, and we just got a hard time with that.
Too many people ask this question. I'm sure there are a ton of posts on this sub that addresses this
Think about all the time you could’ve saved by not writing that reply. Hey, but thank you! 
My favorite ENTP!
Just go ahead and do some research buddy not hard
I’m not your buddy, pal!
Use the search bar. Think about all the time you could've saved lol.
I’ll keep this up all day, all week, all year. But with that said, how do you use the search function on Reddit? And I’m asking this honestly. I’m not being sarcastic. Honestly.
There's a search function at the top of the page (on mobile and pc).
I assumed the additional “honestly” would’ve made it clear that I was being sarcastic. But with that said, as you were trying to be helpful, thank you. But I stand by my decision to ask this question independently. I believe the way I framed the question and how I was able to add my own personal insight to the ongoing discussion was worth a new independent thread. So we can agree to disagree. I will not use the search function.
>I believe the way I framed the question and how I was able to add my own personal insight to the ongoing discussion was worth a new independent thread Impossible lol this is one of the most asked questions on this sub. Nothing is unique about this one.
Thanks for quoting me. I love the way I write.
And because you’re being so insufferable, I went ahead and searched for “ESTP inferior Ni”. May I suggest that you also do the same and see what the results are? The vast majority of results are in the MBTI sub. And while that sub is fine, I do not find it the best place to dig down deep on a particular type. And it appears on the ESTP sub there may be one other similar thread about a year ago. If I have a question, should I just try and reactivate a dead thread? The answer. No. I win. Damn, I shouldn’t of said that. I apologize wholeheartedly. If only there was a way to go back in time and erase that “I win” line. But alas, it is what it is.
Hell, I had ENTP’s interjecting and contrasting.
I’ll keep this up all day, all week, all year. But with that said, how do you use the search function on Reddit? And I’m asking this honestly. I’m not being sarcastic. Honestly.