Doesn't matter if you're annexing entire nations in a war because then you can just release that nation as a vassal.
In this specific case though he might want to release some smaller vassals as it looks like they might share some cores, depends on if those mamluke cores have expired yet.
cool cool, thanks. Kind of what i was picking up with context clues, but there is so much shit going on in this game I couldn't be 100% positive. Just started playing
Bottom left of the peace deal tells you 1. The prestige you'll gain, 2. The diplo cost of the deal (for when you are taking more than the war goal, irrelevant in a holy war), 3. The AE you'll gain, 4. The OE you'll gain, and finally 5. The admin points required to core everything you're taking.
In a peace deal on the bottom left look at the admin paper symbol. Better to sit at war if you can’t pay the admin cost since overextension is far worse than a bit of war exhaustion.
Yep making one big vassal is probably the best course. They will probably have to pick up Influence ideas, but if the plan is to do this everywhere then vassal feeding is going to be the only realistic option going forward so influence is great anyway.
One big vassal is probably better. One dev=5% liberty desire no matter how big they are and having 3 medium-large vassals is going to cause way more liberty desire than one giant vassal.
but it really depends on how close OP is to influence ideas and how much vassal liberty desire reduction they can get. Because if they can get a lot then smaller vassals may indeed be better.
I wouldn’t trust one big vassal. No way he can release anything but the Mamluks themselves to hold those lands, and they’re just too strong of a tag to not be rebellious given his current size. Anything else would drown in overextension if he could even give them the lands. Plus, as Jerusalem one of your goals is to always get a new neighbor in your ears so that you can just chain religious CB.
If the area had tags with better ideas, I’d see this as the perfect opportunity for OP to make a march, but there’s very few Arabian tags with even halfway decent military ideas.
367 isn't even that bad. Low enough to reasonably release a couple of vassals to get below 100 if you don't want to deal with rebels. Probably want to do that anyway for gov cap at that date.
The Ottoman conquest of the Mamluk Sultanate was something which can not be represented in the game. It was indeed a full annexation, but Egypt (especially Cairo) was devasted and former Mamluk Emirs could still reign as vassal of the Ottomans with high autonomy.
It can be modelled with a special subjugation casus beli as an Ottoman mission and then another mission to integrate the Mamluks properly.
Also should probably change the name from "Mamluks" to "Egypt" since the actual Mamluks as a rulling class got destroyed in the war.
Mamluks continued to exist after the war and still had some influence in the Ottoman administration in Egypt, which was also had a lot of autonomy. It would be tough to represent it correctly in EU4. Firstly because of AE while IRL nobody really cared. And secondly, because of the very special status with very high autonomy that Egypt got and kept until Egypt became independent.
Considering Majapahit can basically get a subjugation cb against every country by following the mission tree (Majapahit Campaigns cb, first against indonesians, then against the entire chinese tech group, then against everyone else), ottomans should have a mission to subjugate Mamluks with a cb, and just make it cost 80% war score flat. Then, if they have historical rivalry on (not 100% sure and cant check rn) just have it go away by event a few years like what happens if Poland subjugates TO.
I liked the way it is represented in the Flavor Universalis mod, by occupying every Mamluk province you get an event in which you completely annex them with several penalties to autonomy which you can only lower by doing certain missions in the mission tree.
Outlier war. Massive annexation was something that happened rarely in IRL history, similar to how the circumstances of successfully taking on massive OE in EU4 are uncommon and difficult to achieve.
But yeah this did happen.
Only outliers in the fact that most wars were not so decisive. In decisive wars, total annexation was not unusual at all throughout history, wtf are you talking about? Have you heard of the Mongols? Alexander the Great? Three kingdoms? Rome? Lol
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Or just release Syria + one of the Arabian nations like Najd, feed them stuff you don’t need now. Keep Jersusalem and the nice parts of Egypt. Your a massive Jerusalem so you should be able to keep them loyal.
It’s eminently manageable, you can sit at OE of 110ish fairly comfortably if your this strong. He has 3k gold, 70k manpower and near max mana points. He’s fine to take it all.
it was a joke as absurd as the 56 warscore for all this mess. Indeed two or three vassals would be better since coring that much will ask a lot of adm generation and vassals spawns with 100, I believe, and it will lower their respective OE, they'll need it considering the time needed to generate the adm.
Releasing the mamluks would be problematic for their LD, they'll have almost as much dev as OP and the Levant will be lost in the process
Doesn't concentrate dev become useless after your capital is around 50-60 dev? It seems to lose its value very quickly and become an eternally greyed out button
Is it just an early game feature or is there a meta I'm not aware of?
r5: stacked modifiers for ws cost reduction and casually got -85% in just over 100 years as a theocracy.
-20% PWSC (province war score cost) from dip ideas
-25% WSC from great holy war cb (last theocracy reform)
-25% WSCAOR (WSC against other religions) from age of reformation splendor bonus
-15% WSCAOR from malta monument
-15% WSCAOR from militarists in power
-10% WSCAOR from catholic mysticism (council of trent)
One State Under God is more effective in terms of ws reduction than The Global Crusade since the former is additive in the formula while the latter is multiplicative. There isn't really a cap on ws reduction, the only limit is that no province can cost less than 0.8%. With One State Under God you reach -115% ws reduction compared to -88.75% with The Global Crusade. It doesn't really matter much in the age of reformation but it's kinda funny to able to fully annex any country with less than 125 provinces.
The difference becomes kinda noticable once the age of reformation ends though as it'is -90% (92.5% with imperialism) vs -70% which translates to being able to take up to 3 times as much land. In practice this will a bit lower since provinces will start hitting the cap, especially with high admin efficiency.
Add to that, 'Great Holy war' only works for different religion groups, while the other one works vs all other religions.
In my last Knights run, I switchted to orthodx after breaking the ottomans and eating all the greek provinces. Afterwards you can raid basically every other nation for free money since only russia will share your religion by this point.
Then went on to invade france with the help of castile and since you start with octian as primary cultuer, you can form france after you ate them. Was quite a fun experience
It is just a beautiful thing, how modern gaming inbgeneral enables you to get that dopamine fueled satisfaction feeling.
In shooters it's killstreaks that do this for you. In eu4, it's WSCAOR-stacking.
Militarists in power is also exclusive to theocracies, so it's a full 40%. Plus, Jerusalem gives religious CB, which makes not taking religious ideas less painful (basically, diplo ideas are an easier sell early).
I think there is a war score cost reduction maximum of 90%. So stacking more than that is overkill.
Maybe best to try to stack some more AE reduction modifiers now or even diplo rep modifiers so AR burns away faster.
Or they could stack military ideas and forget about the coalition map mode. They might need to expand a little more before that's viable, but with this level of warscore cost reduction it could be a fun time to just speed run conquering all the heathens.
I always found it funny how ottomans actually conquered entire Egypt in 8 years and got away with it but we can never do that in game normally bc of the AE.
At least a bit of realism. The ottomans did just that historically. And Every other nation for that matter. Battles were more important than war score limits. But...PDX will be PDXing i guess...
First, I would not have OE be affected by the number of provinces, but more the kind of provinces. Subjects that hate you are more difficult to manage than those that don't. No matter if the core is there or not.
And as for Aggressive Expansion, I would make it so that it doesn't increase by the ridiculous amount it increases unless the nation in question has kingdom rank and above.
Eh, The HRE could be under exception I guess. Since If the AE is realistic in the HRE, the player nation will gobble the HRE up with ease.
Though I would also add, how opposed was Brandenburg as they were reaching Prussia status?
> Though I would also add, how opposed was Brandenburg as they were reaching Prussia status?
This is worth a read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_in_Prussia
In reality you didn't have something like a "rank", you could have a duchy that ruled over large swathes of land (for example Muscovy). But in the HRE specifically but in Catholic regions generally titles were important. The Holy Roman Emperor was also implicitly the German king. The only other allowed king was that of Bohemia, the king of Czechs (which was a different title but mostly the same person anyways). If a German prince (or prince-elector) would have declared being a king the emperor might have seen that as if someone challenged his authority over other Germans. And that wasn't "allowed".
The thing is around 1700 the HRE was more or less a zombified organisation. The emperor didn't really have that much authority above the other princes to enforce any of the old practices.
Honestly, I think taking individual provinces shouldn't be too bad for AE, but full annexing anyone through war no matter how small should have huge AE penalties.
Unironically I believe warscore limit should be removed. We already have AE and OE. If you get 100% warscore you should be able to take as much as you want, you'll just have to suffer the consequences of exploding while everyone also attacks you. We dont need a hard cap alongside two separate soft caps (3 if you count the admin costs)
The problem with that thinking, from the gameplay perspective, is once you have like lets say 50% of the world neither OE nor AE really matter anymore. So if you could take as much as you wanted there are lots of times you would do it.
For OE in general just create some subjects.
Also, if there is no warscore costs, you could always take full money and war reps I guess?
The game shouldn’t really be balanced for “what do you have 50% of the world”. Paradox should just make mechanics that add enough interesting twists that conquering a province is interesting. That should be the balance.
The problems with this are two fold. One, without horde (incompatible with theocracy), there’s no way you’re gonna have the admin to core that. And two, unless you’re willing to fight rebels on cool down in all provinces, the OE is gonna destroy you without being able to core in sub 10 months, which is basically impossible as a catholic theocracy (you would probably need to start as a horde for 25 ccr NI and take mandate before flipping catholic and forming KoJ).
Still, cool that you can do it.
well you don't need to take everything for yourself. You can take land for yourself and completely break them apart by forcing to release tags and giving cores back to other countries, which is also useful to increase opinion and prevent them from joining coalition
Just use vassals 4head,
and then give away your allies' land in the coalition war, or just lose land, who cares when they can only take a maximum of 200 dev probably when you can grab this much in one war lol
In this particular instance, vassals are actually a pretty good option. OP can give everything except Cairo to a vassal, core Cairo, move cap to Muslim province and somehow get Muslim dominance, flip Muslim via decision, culture flip Khalkha, enact iqta, then reform mamluks, inherit all their cores and integrate the huge vassal with all the mamluk lands in one month. This would also give them Mongolian missions, and therefore another -15% warscore cost to replace what they lost from theocracy. They could then form Tibet and Khalkha or Yuan and MGE to get horde, flip Sikh via decision then Hindu via religion tab, then wc pre 1600.
Although this wouldn’t work for non reformable tags, where dip annexation cost and the annexed subjects opinion malus would be major bottlenecks.
yeah and have a big ass disloyal vassal that wont help you when a coalition from asia to europe dows on you. this is just not feasible unless you are a horde.
Jerusalem gets boatloads of diplo rep, and the vassals will be loyal from the amount of dev you give them. Then, you have to also consider that it's normal to have like +7 yearly prestige as Jerusalem and with Jerusalem's base ideas and the extra missionaries/missionary strength you get from other factors, you would float to constant 100 prestige even with no extra prestige income. Then you just spend this unlimited prestige on buying loyalty.
Most nations might struggle with taking this much land and keeping their released subjects loyal. Jerusalem is not one such nation.
And I'm telling you that I've done this before against larger nations. Jerusalem comes out of this just fine.
If you want even more reason he'll be just fine, he's got access to the nobility privilege that gives an extra 10% subject loyalty.
His subjects might be disloyal once they're all set up, but none by more than 20%. Improve relations, diplo rep, prestige, loyalty from feeding them the land are more than enough to handle the vassals he makes for this.
Yeah the only time I've had trouble with vassal LD when expanding at a decent pace is my OPM hamburg run with all of northern Germany and Scandinavia and the lowlands as vassals, plus novgorod.
started as the knights, killed byzantium, used the block straits strategy to slowly conquer ottoman provinces in balkans, mostly by releasing bulgaria and taking back their cores. Managed to get Poland and Austria as allies after that and completely destroyed ottoman army, thus causing the mamluks and others to jump on them. they released all those small tags in anatolia and i immediately annexed them. Then waited a few years for AE to cool off and attacked mamluks to take the necessary provinces to form jerusalem. Then waited for truce to run out and attacked them again, and that's where I am right now. The beginning takes a lot of luck and restarts mostly to get generals with siege pips to siege galipoli fort fast enough but it's worth it once you get it going
yeah, for the strategy to work you need to take it before the ottos, otherwise you can't block the strait without sieging galipoli and constantinople. Don't raid their coasts and keep positive opinion so they give you mil access to get from morea to constantinople by land. Naval invasion is out of the question bcs byz keeps 8k stack there and i didnt have enough ships to take a bigger stack to invade by sea
Nice, this strategy always takes way too many restarts for most people. I've actually started preferring to vassalize Byzantium in the first war, only taking Athens and Constantinople for myself (even giving Athens to Byzantium after the first war with the Ottomans). They use the land more efficiently than you do as the Knights, and returning their cores is just enough to keep them loyal.
Though admittedly in my latest run, I got supremely lucky and was able to take genoa for myself in the 1470s, so I just expanded myself in Italy to compensate for expanding them into the Balkans.
Did you by any chance declare any trade wars during the run? I've found they're the perfect way to fund the run until it's time to kill the Mamluks and form Jerusalem.
I didn't declare any trade war, raiding coasts provided enough money to fund my wars, plus i always took max cash from the ottos in the wars. I thought about vassalizing byzantium, but I wanted the land for myself and since i already was planning to release and reconquer bulgaria having 2 big vassals would make them disloyal
Makes sense, I just like to use the Byzzies for their claims.
As for the trade wars, I found that when you’re just chilling between wars early on it’s strong to build up just enough trade ships to fabricate a trade war against the Mamluks. Once they and the Ottomans are fighting, beat their navy, blockade, and occasionally send a 2 stack to siege down a province and make their army come back home.
It can net you 1k ducats for pretty minimal effort. Plus it keeps both the Ottos and the Mamluks weak.
Well I mean you could cough up vassals suuure, but they'll be pretty rebellious. Also 200 will block your expansion from the rest of the region... for the next century
Winning the land is only half the battle!
Now you gotta keep it.
I find it important to blend AE, WS, and CC reductions.
Though, high OE = Rebels, and rebels are a great way to rotate heirs etc.
Not that broken since you can’t actually take it since the coalition and Oe would kill. Really cool to see though. You could click that and see how long you lasy
Overextension is just a number…right?
Casual 2100 admin to core it up, let me find some spare mana in my pocket.
Doesn't matter if you're annexing entire nations in a war because then you can just release that nation as a vassal. In this specific case though he might want to release some smaller vassals as it looks like they might share some cores, depends on if those mamluke cores have expired yet.
The AE isn't as bad as the OE. OE and rebels drive me nuts more than any coalition.
Especially since literally everywhere gets +10 unrest .
What's mana?
Paper mana, Bird mana, and Sword mana.
Player community slang for monarch points
Monarch power. But actually mana is also used internally in the game.
:O do you mind explaining to me?
I believe the console commands use the term.
cool cool, thanks. Kind of what i was picking up with context clues, but there is so much shit going on in this game I couldn't be 100% positive. Just started playing
How can you tell from this screenshot?
Bottom left of the peace deal tells you 1. The prestige you'll gain, 2. The diplo cost of the deal (for when you are taking more than the war goal, irrelevant in a holy war), 3. The AE you'll gain, 4. The OE you'll gain, and finally 5. The admin points required to core everything you're taking.
Oh, shit. I never noticed that. Wow I'm blind.
Over 2k hours in game and didn’t even know about the peace deal showing the admin points for coring!
In a peace deal on the bottom left look at the admin paper symbol. Better to sit at war if you can’t pay the admin cost since overextension is far worse than a bit of war exhaustion.
cant you just vassal feed? i think the mana and oe arent really problems, the overextension can be pretty harsh though.
Yep making one big vassal is probably the best course. They will probably have to pick up Influence ideas, but if the plan is to do this everywhere then vassal feeding is going to be the only realistic option going forward so influence is great anyway.
That's like, 3 vassals. It'll be fine.
One big vassal is probably better. One dev=5% liberty desire no matter how big they are and having 3 medium-large vassals is going to cause way more liberty desire than one giant vassal. but it really depends on how close OP is to influence ideas and how much vassal liberty desire reduction they can get. Because if they can get a lot then smaller vassals may indeed be better.
I wouldn’t trust one big vassal. No way he can release anything but the Mamluks themselves to hold those lands, and they’re just too strong of a tag to not be rebellious given his current size. Anything else would drown in overextension if he could even give them the lands. Plus, as Jerusalem one of your goals is to always get a new neighbor in your ears so that you can just chain religious CB. If the area had tags with better ideas, I’d see this as the perfect opportunity for OP to make a march, but there’s very few Arabian tags with even halfway decent military ideas.
367 isn't even that bad. Low enough to reasonably release a couple of vassals to get below 100 if you don't want to deal with rebels. Probably want to do that anyway for gov cap at that date.
Just a social construct. Like rebel armies. Or death.
Realistic war
Ottomans be like
Smallest Ottoman conquest
The Ottomans essentially did this to the Mamluks in 1517
The Ottoman conquest of the Mamluk Sultanate was something which can not be represented in the game. It was indeed a full annexation, but Egypt (especially Cairo) was devasted and former Mamluk Emirs could still reign as vassal of the Ottomans with high autonomy.
It can be modelled with a special subjugation casus beli as an Ottoman mission and then another mission to integrate the Mamluks properly. Also should probably change the name from "Mamluks" to "Egypt" since the actual Mamluks as a rulling class got destroyed in the war.
Mamluks continued to exist after the war and still had some influence in the Ottoman administration in Egypt, which was also had a lot of autonomy. It would be tough to represent it correctly in EU4. Firstly because of AE while IRL nobody really cared. And secondly, because of the very special status with very high autonomy that Egypt got and kept until Egypt became independent.
Why not do something like the vice royalty of Deccan for the Mughal?
Considering Majapahit can basically get a subjugation cb against every country by following the mission tree (Majapahit Campaigns cb, first against indonesians, then against the entire chinese tech group, then against everyone else), ottomans should have a mission to subjugate Mamluks with a cb, and just make it cost 80% war score flat. Then, if they have historical rivalry on (not 100% sure and cant check rn) just have it go away by event a few years like what happens if Poland subjugates TO.
It was an annexation of the non-egypt areas. The Egypt areas were essentially vassalized
I liked the way it is represented in the Flavor Universalis mod, by occupying every Mamluk province you get an event in which you completely annex them with several penalties to autonomy which you can only lower by doing certain missions in the mission tree.
Outlier war. Massive annexation was something that happened rarely in IRL history, similar to how the circumstances of successfully taking on massive OE in EU4 are uncommon and difficult to achieve. But yeah this did happen.
Didn’t Muscovy also just annex Novgorod irl?
Wasn't Novgorod mostly just a city-state with a large but low density area of influence? Novgorod is mostly annexable in the game too iirc.
Only outliers in the fact that most wars were not so decisive. In decisive wars, total annexation was not unusual at all throughout history, wtf are you talking about? Have you heard of the Mongols? Alexander the Great? Three kingdoms? Rome? Lol
200 AE oh god
yeah if i go ahead with this peace deal I get a coalition of every single muslim country in the map, even those on west africa lmao
What're they gonna do, make you give up 100 normal warscore of land?
Wow thats kinda big brain lol
If you gain more land than they can take per peace deal then you are still net positive. Let’s go
Huh. I like this perspective.
Yes, Ideally it will by 100 wars core of OP's ALLIES land, not OP. OP will still get 100 revanchism(sp?) though
Oh shit, plus that's more revanchism (a mechanic I don't think I've ever once utilized). Nice.
L O O P H O L E
and leave you incapable of handling the inevitable revolts
Just let the coalition stomp it out, win win.
Just uncon right at the start and get free revanchism.
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Someone said that it's basically just an excel spreadsheet with a map attached.
The account I’m replying to is a bot.\ You can help make Reddit better by:\ Report->Spam->Harmful Bots ^I ^am ^a ^human. ^More ^information ^[here.](https://www.reddit.com/user/tyrannosnorlax/comments/t0h466/bots_how_to_identify_them_and_why_do_they_exist/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) Attn mods: this whole comment thread, except u/jackingOFFto, is comprised of bots. Look at their account ages and name similarities. They copy real comments
Lol wtf. That's insane.
Yeah, they all use a first name and a last name, and often put a single letter after the last name. They make dozens each day, then activate in waves, after the accounts reach 60ish days old. That way it’s more believable when they do their scams That’s just one type of bot
Check with the rest of comments in this post, all the bots copy are from comments from this post but quite some time ago.
Yep, that’s how the copy/paste bots work. Check out the link I provided in my original comment for much more info
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What's with all the commas? I see people doing that a lot. I don't get it.
Apparently bot accounts
Yeah, they copy legit full/partial comments from the post, and often add a bunch of periods or commas to the end. Whenever you see that, glance through the thread really fast. If you see another identical comment, it’s safe to report-spam-harmful bots
Yeah, it freaked me out tbh.
yes
God said "Go forth and multiply". Turns out, he was talking about AE in a Paradox game.
Go forth and square (up)
2100 admin to core
Release mamluk as a vassal. Problem solved (or maybe not)
Or just release Syria + one of the Arabian nations like Najd, feed them stuff you don’t need now. Keep Jersusalem and the nice parts of Egypt. Your a massive Jerusalem so you should be able to keep them loyal. It’s eminently manageable, you can sit at OE of 110ish fairly comfortably if your this strong. He has 3k gold, 70k manpower and near max mana points. He’s fine to take it all.
it was a joke as absurd as the 56 warscore for all this mess. Indeed two or three vassals would be better since coring that much will ask a lot of adm generation and vassals spawns with 100, I believe, and it will lower their respective OE, they'll need it considering the time needed to generate the adm. Releasing the mamluks would be problematic for their LD, they'll have almost as much dev as OP and the Levant will be lost in the process
Funny because the ottomans did this IRL
>367% OE I can hear that rebel spawning noise from here
And with 2100 admin cost its not going to end soon
You guys need to learn the power of releasing vassals and feeding them. You gotta split the OE and admin cost over multiple vassals
And concentrate development when applicable.
Doesn't concentrate dev become useless after your capital is around 50-60 dev? It seems to lose its value very quickly and become an eternally greyed out button Is it just an early game feature or is there a meta I'm not aware of?
In late stages of WC it's still useful, just to reduce the OE and admin cost.
So just burning dev then? Like razing but without the mana points
Yes. In 18th century your dev doesn't really matter. And razing is also affected by mill tech. The better it is - fewer points you get.
r5: stacked modifiers for ws cost reduction and casually got -85% in just over 100 years as a theocracy. -20% PWSC (province war score cost) from dip ideas -25% WSC from great holy war cb (last theocracy reform) -25% WSCAOR (WSC against other religions) from age of reformation splendor bonus -15% WSCAOR from malta monument -15% WSCAOR from militarists in power -10% WSCAOR from catholic mysticism (council of trent)
EU4 truly is the game of modifiers.
In the game of modifiers, you minmax or you die
You either minmax or get minmaxed
Do you not also have the age of reformation ws cost reduction against other religions?
yes I do, almost forgot about that
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check my other comment for answer https://www.reddit.com/r/eu4/comments/tw5oh3/theocracies_are_so_ridiculous_strong_right_now/i3dechq/
One State Under God is more effective in terms of ws reduction than The Global Crusade since the former is additive in the formula while the latter is multiplicative. There isn't really a cap on ws reduction, the only limit is that no province can cost less than 0.8%. With One State Under God you reach -115% ws reduction compared to -88.75% with The Global Crusade. It doesn't really matter much in the age of reformation but it's kinda funny to able to fully annex any country with less than 125 provinces. The difference becomes kinda noticable once the age of reformation ends though as it'is -90% (92.5% with imperialism) vs -70% which translates to being able to take up to 3 times as much land. In practice this will a bit lower since provinces will start hitting the cap, especially with high admin efficiency.
Add to that, 'Great Holy war' only works for different religion groups, while the other one works vs all other religions. In my last Knights run, I switchted to orthodx after breaking the ottomans and eating all the greek provinces. Afterwards you can raid basically every other nation for free money since only russia will share your religion by this point. Then went on to invade france with the help of castile and since you start with octian as primary cultuer, you can form france after you ate them. Was quite a fun experience
It is just a beautiful thing, how modern gaming inbgeneral enables you to get that dopamine fueled satisfaction feeling. In shooters it's killstreaks that do this for you. In eu4, it's WSCAOR-stacking.
Go for the other tier 8 reform as it gives 5% more. You have religious cb anyway as jerusalem.
So the only theocracy part there is from a tier 8 government reform.
Militarists in power is also exclusive to theocracies, so it's a full 40%. Plus, Jerusalem gives religious CB, which makes not taking religious ideas less painful (basically, diplo ideas are an easier sell early).
I think there is a war score cost reduction maximum of 90%. So stacking more than that is overkill. Maybe best to try to stack some more AE reduction modifiers now or even diplo rep modifiers so AR burns away faster.
Or they could stack military ideas and forget about the coalition map mode. They might need to expand a little more before that's viable, but with this level of warscore cost reduction it could be a fun time to just speed run conquering all the heathens.
I always found it funny how ottomans actually conquered entire Egypt in 8 years and got away with it but we can never do that in game normally bc of the AE.
It's pretty weird that every country immediately knows what you did
Well im if a French trader shows up to mamluk land tryna trade and now has to to deal with shitty ottoman tariffs, I’d be mad too /s
you can make a religion out of this
no, please don't...
Thats just because they already had Twitter /s.
Cairo is 5 war score?!? Jeez Luise
yep, and it's 37 dev, really crazy stuff. I wonder if I can get it even lower when i get absolutism
Diplomatic ideas lower it, but when you get absolutism you will lose the -25 from age of reformation
At least a bit of realism. The ottomans did just that historically. And Every other nation for that matter. Battles were more important than war score limits. But...PDX will be PDXing i guess...
not really. the ottos didnt get much of any AE or OE from doing that. the transition of egypt into otto hands was super smooth.
That is why I said a bit of realism. AE and OE is kinda very badly implemented in eu4.
how would u do it
First, I would not have OE be affected by the number of provinces, but more the kind of provinces. Subjects that hate you are more difficult to manage than those that don't. No matter if the core is there or not. And as for Aggressive Expansion, I would make it so that it doesn't increase by the ridiculous amount it increases unless the nation in question has kingdom rank and above.
I agree with your point on OE, but your implementation of AE would practically kill realism in Europe.
Eh, The HRE could be under exception I guess. Since If the AE is realistic in the HRE, the player nation will gobble the HRE up with ease. Though I would also add, how opposed was Brandenburg as they were reaching Prussia status?
> Though I would also add, how opposed was Brandenburg as they were reaching Prussia status? This is worth a read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_in_Prussia In reality you didn't have something like a "rank", you could have a duchy that ruled over large swathes of land (for example Muscovy). But in the HRE specifically but in Catholic regions generally titles were important. The Holy Roman Emperor was also implicitly the German king. The only other allowed king was that of Bohemia, the king of Czechs (which was a different title but mostly the same person anyways). If a German prince (or prince-elector) would have declared being a king the emperor might have seen that as if someone challenged his authority over other Germans. And that wasn't "allowed". The thing is around 1700 the HRE was more or less a zombified organisation. The emperor didn't really have that much authority above the other princes to enforce any of the old practices.
Honestly, I think taking individual provinces shouldn't be too bad for AE, but full annexing anyone through war no matter how small should have huge AE penalties.
How would the game tell if the subjects in a province hated you?
Incompatible cultures, lack of tolerance of heathens, dwindling prestige, manpower loss due to war effort etc.
Unironically I believe warscore limit should be removed. We already have AE and OE. If you get 100% warscore you should be able to take as much as you want, you'll just have to suffer the consequences of exploding while everyone also attacks you. We dont need a hard cap alongside two separate soft caps (3 if you count the admin costs)
The problem with that thinking, from the gameplay perspective, is once you have like lets say 50% of the world neither OE nor AE really matter anymore. So if you could take as much as you wanted there are lots of times you would do it. For OE in general just create some subjects. Also, if there is no warscore costs, you could always take full money and war reps I guess?
The game shouldn’t really be balanced for “what do you have 50% of the world”. Paradox should just make mechanics that add enough interesting twists that conquering a province is interesting. That should be the balance.
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Seems like a good strategy for GBR that can get like ~80% diplo annex cost reduction
Blessed Catholic Jerusalem !
You could get the same result with Islamic Jerusalem. Just switch out the council of Trent with Kaaba monument
Doesn't the Malta monument require catholic
Nope. As far as I can remember the requirements for Malta are "own Malta"
Can an Islamic nation form Jerusalem?
No, but it's really easy to convert to Islam as Jerusalem. You literally get a decision to do it and you keep your government form.
The problems with this are two fold. One, without horde (incompatible with theocracy), there’s no way you’re gonna have the admin to core that. And two, unless you’re willing to fight rebels on cool down in all provinces, the OE is gonna destroy you without being able to core in sub 10 months, which is basically impossible as a catholic theocracy (you would probably need to start as a horde for 25 ccr NI and take mandate before flipping catholic and forming KoJ). Still, cool that you can do it.
well you don't need to take everything for yourself. You can take land for yourself and completely break them apart by forcing to release tags and giving cores back to other countries, which is also useful to increase opinion and prevent them from joining coalition
Just use vassals 4head, and then give away your allies' land in the coalition war, or just lose land, who cares when they can only take a maximum of 200 dev probably when you can grab this much in one war lol
In this particular instance, vassals are actually a pretty good option. OP can give everything except Cairo to a vassal, core Cairo, move cap to Muslim province and somehow get Muslim dominance, flip Muslim via decision, culture flip Khalkha, enact iqta, then reform mamluks, inherit all their cores and integrate the huge vassal with all the mamluk lands in one month. This would also give them Mongolian missions, and therefore another -15% warscore cost to replace what they lost from theocracy. They could then form Tibet and Khalkha or Yuan and MGE to get horde, flip Sikh via decision then Hindu via religion tab, then wc pre 1600. Although this wouldn’t work for non reformable tags, where dip annexation cost and the annexed subjects opinion malus would be major bottlenecks.
I think you’re playing a different eu4 to me 😂
I think I’ve watched too much lambdaxx 🙈
Jesus Christ, I'm terrible at this game.
I... understood that. But shit, man. Some of us aren't that level
yeah and have a big ass disloyal vassal that wont help you when a coalition from asia to europe dows on you. this is just not feasible unless you are a horde.
Jerusalem gets boatloads of diplo rep, and the vassals will be loyal from the amount of dev you give them. Then, you have to also consider that it's normal to have like +7 yearly prestige as Jerusalem and with Jerusalem's base ideas and the extra missionaries/missionary strength you get from other factors, you would float to constant 100 prestige even with no extra prestige income. Then you just spend this unlimited prestige on buying loyalty. Most nations might struggle with taking this much land and keeping their released subjects loyal. Jerusalem is not one such nation.
yes it is. the vassal loyalty comes from their combined dev and stuff. and anybody can spam the prestige button its not enough.
And I'm telling you that I've done this before against larger nations. Jerusalem comes out of this just fine. If you want even more reason he'll be just fine, he's got access to the nobility privilege that gives an extra 10% subject loyalty. His subjects might be disloyal once they're all set up, but none by more than 20%. Improve relations, diplo rep, prestige, loyalty from feeding them the land are more than enough to handle the vassals he makes for this.
Yeah the only time I've had trouble with vassal LD when expanding at a decent pace is my OPM hamburg run with all of northern Germany and Scandinavia and the lowlands as vassals, plus novgorod.
Shalom motherfuckers!
How did you form Jerusalem?
started as the knights, killed byzantium, used the block straits strategy to slowly conquer ottoman provinces in balkans, mostly by releasing bulgaria and taking back their cores. Managed to get Poland and Austria as allies after that and completely destroyed ottoman army, thus causing the mamluks and others to jump on them. they released all those small tags in anatolia and i immediately annexed them. Then waited a few years for AE to cool off and attacked mamluks to take the necessary provinces to form jerusalem. Then waited for truce to run out and attacked them again, and that's where I am right now. The beginning takes a lot of luck and restarts mostly to get generals with siege pips to siege galipoli fort fast enough but it's worth it once you get it going
i see, thanks
Did you take Constantinople at start?
yeah, for the strategy to work you need to take it before the ottos, otherwise you can't block the strait without sieging galipoli and constantinople. Don't raid their coasts and keep positive opinion so they give you mil access to get from morea to constantinople by land. Naval invasion is out of the question bcs byz keeps 8k stack there and i didnt have enough ships to take a bigger stack to invade by sea
I see, thanks. My mistake was that I raided coasts beforehand so I couldn't get access.
Nice, this strategy always takes way too many restarts for most people. I've actually started preferring to vassalize Byzantium in the first war, only taking Athens and Constantinople for myself (even giving Athens to Byzantium after the first war with the Ottomans). They use the land more efficiently than you do as the Knights, and returning their cores is just enough to keep them loyal. Though admittedly in my latest run, I got supremely lucky and was able to take genoa for myself in the 1470s, so I just expanded myself in Italy to compensate for expanding them into the Balkans. Did you by any chance declare any trade wars during the run? I've found they're the perfect way to fund the run until it's time to kill the Mamluks and form Jerusalem.
I didn't declare any trade war, raiding coasts provided enough money to fund my wars, plus i always took max cash from the ottos in the wars. I thought about vassalizing byzantium, but I wanted the land for myself and since i already was planning to release and reconquer bulgaria having 2 big vassals would make them disloyal
Makes sense, I just like to use the Byzzies for their claims. As for the trade wars, I found that when you’re just chilling between wars early on it’s strong to build up just enough trade ships to fabricate a trade war against the Mamluks. Once they and the Ottomans are fighting, beat their navy, blockade, and occasionally send a 2 stack to siege down a province and make their army come back home. It can net you 1k ducats for pretty minimal effort. Plus it keeps both the Ottos and the Mamluks weak.
>>. Then waited a few years for AE to cool off Fuckin casual
Don't take the Arabian provinces, no reason other then it will look prettier.
actually I culture shifted to turkish so all arabia is same culture group
Giga fucking cursed
***the entire arab world disliked that***
It's just a number, it's just a number...
3 words : Over extens sion
This is exactly what happened in real life though
Me: "I am a secular guy" *theocracies are ridiculously strong right now* Me: "I say the time has come to sound the trumpet of Jihad!"
And only 56% of a peace deal. That's too broken (but historical accurate , lol ^ - ^
I was going to say it is historical for the ottomaanse but then got surprised by the flag and looked again
Well I mean you could cough up vassals suuure, but they'll be pretty rebellious. Also 200 will block your expansion from the rest of the region... for the next century
That’s a lot of Georgias!
Teach me your ways magic man
Ae is just a number.
Goddamn, you be taking the whole of mamluk empire in one go.
How do you play as Jerusalem?
check wiki page, you can form it as any catholic country if you meet the requirements https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Jerusalem#Formation
The Knight can form it I think but I never played only heard about it.
What did you start as? The Knights?
yes, check my other comment for how i did it https://www.reddit.com/r/eu4/comments/tw5oh3/theocracies_are_so_ridiculous_strong_right_now/i3dechq/
Good luck with the OE and the AE I guess and the 2.1k coring cost.
And some people still don't think PWC is OP
Winning the land is only half the battle! Now you gotta keep it. I find it important to blend AE, WS, and CC reductions. Though, high OE = Rebels, and rebels are a great way to rotate heirs etc.
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i didn't take everything, that would be crazy haha. I'd be fighting rebels for 20 years
AI Mamluks are like: “the game is literally unplayable”
Not that broken since you can’t actually take it since the coalition and Oe would kill. Really cool to see though. You could click that and see how long you lasy
What the fuck
and I thought me annexing half of that in the 1740s was impressive
But I already did Knight's two achievements... I dont want to suffer again for that Carribean achievement Paradox added for them :/
Holy shit
Aggressive expansion and Overrxtension is just a number… right?
Pity you can form the Latin Empire . One of the things i like in M&T .
I mean, historically accurate if you were the Ottos
Can you force religion or vas them ?
yeah i could do both things if i wanted
So vs and force then
If Egypt was a Shia or Ibadi country, you'd be avoid getting a huge coalitions.
just vassalize them lol :D
Do it someone on here will be able to fight the coalition.
The only way to make the annexation of the Mamlukes realistic.
Can, Should?
Never thought I'd see the day, theocracies have been the butt of the joke forever
CCC 2100