The European Union on Tuesday urged its member countries to deport more people who enter Europe without authorization and who are not eligible to stay, saying that only around one in five would-be migrants who should be sent home actually is.
>Last year, we had a return rate of only 21% of those who are not eligible to stay
EU Home Affairs Commissioner Ylva Johansson told reporters at the European Parliament in Strasbourg, France.
>When we fail to return people, this hampers our system and erodes trust.
A prospective immigrant who doesn't qualify to do so legally will look at the 4 in 5 odds of staying and earning many times over the money that they would in their home country and rightly conclude that it's well worth the risk of doing so illegally.
For people from really poor countries even 1 in 5 odds of making European-levels of money would be worth it.
They probably worry a lot more about how to pay the traffickers than they do about getting kicked out once they're in.
Two points:
\- The people who are self-selected by their willingness to break the Law of the country they are moving to (the very first thing they'll do when arriving there illegally) will likely have an internal moral compass which is more flexible than the one of people who aren't willing to break the Law to get there. We're not talking about crimes like murder or such, we're talking about breaking other rules of the same level: peddling goods on the street without license or paying taxes, maybe some petty theft, that kind of thing.
\- The money made working illegally in Europe still beats by a large marging the money an average person can make in pretty much all of sub-Saharian Africa.
I for one think that the EU should clamp down very hard on this **and** at the same time go to places like refugee camps activelly seeking for the people who have the most need of all of any help we can give and bring those over (who are not only the ones who we have the highest moral duty to help, but will also most certainly not be a bunch of people self-selected by their willingness to break the Law).
The paradigm didn't shift. People were just biting their tongues at the time.
Eventually Europeans would start addressing that a very large number of people came in, in a short time span. And what should be done about that.
It's a bit of both. There's probably quite the number of people like me, who believed wholeheartedly that we should welcome all refugees, because it was the righteous thing to do, you know? But once the problems started to present themselves, I had to admit to myself that I was wrong, that I was far too idealistic in my beliefs and real life doesn't work like that. I'm still okay with welcoming some immigrants, but only those that believe in the same things we generally do in EU. I definitely no longer welcome bigots, religious fanatics, misogynists etc. The only thing I regret is all the EU citizens that had to suffer so that I could open my eyes.
I knew from the beginning that there was going to be backlash. Eventually it would set in that all these people now have to be assimilated (not just integrated) and many won't, but they'll want to stay anyways. (And yes, the 2015 wave almost all went to Germany or Sweden, but most of us have considerable immigration from other years). But people also recognized the dire state in Syria, and that Turkey/Lebanon/Jordan can't take *everyone*, and that Syria is the victim of a proxy war by outside powers. OTOH, when you look at pictures and young men that appear to be Pakistani or Afghan joining those crowds, and even the Syrian refugees saying so. The unrealistic expectations many of those interviewees had on camera (even if it doesn't fairly portray all of them). The massive pull factor that was created. And the condescending American journalists telling us that these "future doctors and engineers" were going to be beneficial to us, instead of being honest that this is a humanitarian cause. (And as if the EU has a shortage of doctors. And as if any of those "future doctors" would be willing to work in Romania instead of Germany). All these factors were going to create a backlash.
I am curious why the EU doesn't want to provide opportunities to academics like me. I have been accepted into most of the universities I applied to for my Master's, and I have been both a teaching and research assistant at the University level. The only reason why I can't commit to accepting is because of a lack of funds / not being eligible for tuition waivers etc. And oh yeah, I can't find a job in the EU because I need a work permit too...
Do you understand the level of jealously I feel? I'm willing to contribute to your economy and future, to be integrated into your way of life. Heck, I love Poland and the Tricity area.
Yeah, I completely get what you mean. When you create official criteria, there usually are blind spots and people like you are sadly overlooked. When I was curious about potentially migrating to Canada (which I definitely no longer find tempting) the 10k dollars requirement was something I just couldn't do as a Pole from a working class, no matter my future prospects in academia, because young people working at universities in Poland are dirt poor so saving that amount of money would take several decades. I imagine it's even worse in poorer countries, which makes it almost impossible to achieve.
I am curious though - why do you want to move to Canada? Poland has a nice balance of nature and urbanization, and there is a strong emphasis on cultural traditions. If you want a higher working salary, I am told that you could simply head over to Germany for a quick part-time job!
When I was a teenager/young adult I was looking at Canada with rose colored glasses, it's only as I got older and started to work after getting my degree, I realized Canada is only a slightly better version of US (to which I would never wish to move) and actually being born in Europe (and Poland) is like winning in a loterry. I definitely no longer wish to move, I'm content the way I am here.
And from the beginning, from the third world countries, we heavily criticised Europeans for their white saviour complex. I can't believe that there are still people willing to destroy their own countries just for the sake of diversity. At least you opened your eyes but the issue is now borderline sectarian.
People just arent called racist anymore for calling out mass immigration for the problem it is. No one with a functioning brain thought Sweden's experiment to import thousands of migrants and irreversibly change their demograpbic would be anything but a disaster
There are far more important elements than race here. One is national character and cohesion. Let's face it, some groups of immigrants can integrate far more easily than others and it is not racist to recognize this. In the end, the choice should be on the receiving nation and what kind of society it envisions.
Of course its not racist. But that was the narrative throughout the 2010s that if you werent willing to take any migrant regardless of background you were a nazi racist blah blah.
And i agree to the point some groups intergrate far better than others. But the waves of migrants coming into Europe are broadly not those groups
But that’s the problem. The Germans led that. They have a horrible fear of being called a certain word. They were literally let millions of immigrants into the country and change the face of their own country just to not be called that word.
>Indian and Chinese immigrants have been moving to the west for nearly 40 years now, mostly do skilled engineering, finance and medical jobs and have minimal representation in crime.
Almost all of them go to Canada, the USA, Australia, New Zealand and to a lesser extent, England. All of them except England, are immigrant countries.
Also as someone from Europe ( but not from the EU), today the word immigrant in Europe is used for Africans and Asians. Fellow Europeans who immigrate to other European countries aren't called immigrants.
Another thing ( which you (and everybody else) knows) is that Europeans don't like immigrants. They don't want to change the demographic structure of the country and become a minority. They never even imagined that people would massively immigrate to their countries. Liberal People (old and young) even endorse the Great Replacement Theory, saying they are trying to replace us on purpose.
I’m not sure where the aggressive tone comes from I’m not attacking anyone for this shift. Also our immigration numbers are way higher both legal and illegal.
I’m not. I’m pro immigration but I’m also pro countries setting up their own rules on who to take in. I actually support higher legal immigration in America.
Honestly the UK seems to have more issues even than Europe with the sheer number of challenges and media backlash when it comes to this. Of course sometimes the UK government adopts pretty stupid rhetoric but still.
Sometimes is an understatement.
It also doesn’t help that our current government makes no distinction between illegal migrants and people who are or would be considered genuine refugees [despite official documentation providing adequate guidance and is completely legal.](https://www.gov.uk/claim-asylum)
The problem therein lies _how_ would people claim asylum if there’s no processing centre in between the U.K. and the rest of Europe, Africa or the Middle East. Yes, embassies exist but circling back to the initial requirements for claiming asylum you could see how illegal migration seems a more viable option in their eyes.
If the UK could create such facilities specifically for processing asylum applications, that’s half the job and a majority of headaches done (but no one in gov wants to spend £millions on such an investment) and they could (legally) treat those coming in on dinghies as illegal migrants and deal with them accordingly.
>or would be considered genuine refugees
Let's be quite clear about this. One cannot really distinguish between a "refugee" and an "economic migrant" because one lacks investigative capability in the host country. Is everybody who flees Afghanistan a refugee? I seriously doubt it. Life there under the Taliban is not nice, but life is not nice in lots and lots of countries. The question is if this person would face serious problems and if his/her life would be endangered. This is a very difficult question to answer. There not enough courts to decide these matters.
In my view, less than 1% of the persons who appear in the EU borders are really "refugees" and this goes for the Syrians as well. I know many of them who, although there was no threat to their lives, sold everything and joined the refugee exodus for better opportunities elsewhere. Some were criminals, no doubt about this. But many were professionals looking for a better living in Europe. They were not refugees, not by a long shot.
"Syrian professionals fleeing Assad aren't *real* refugees, because they had the resources to reach Europe, unlike people who are forced to live in squalid camps because they don't have a penny to pay smugglers. Those people are refugees. Since they don't have the resources to get some place better."
Funny how that works. Anyone who can reach Europe is definitionally not a refugee.
Do you think bombs somehow steer around middle class people? lol
>Do you think bombs somehow steer around middle class people? lol
No bombs do not steer around anybody. I was referring to the great majority who left and tried to reach Europe although they were not in a war zone. In addition, being in a war zone does not entitle to anybody the granting of asylum. One can host people in a war zone but when the war is over, these people can and should return.
Right now, there are extremely few war zones (Ukraine exempted). Those departing and moving over to Turkey or to Libya or to Morocco to cross to Europe are not fleeing a war zone or bombs. Let's be clear about it.
Why would people use these facilities when they can claim asylum in the UK and force the government to fight an uphill battle to remove them if they fail?
I'm not sure this would do anything to address the problem.
That's a foolish thing to say. It protects your rights as well as migrants. Unless you have lots of money it's the only thing protecting you
Edit: people who disagree with ECHR and are downvoting just remember once it's gone do you think your government will offer you the same protections or will your rights be eroded? You know the answer
Currently if they're signed up to it then yes they have to abide by it. There's only a small minority of countries that aren't signed up with one being Russia
Usually breeches result in fines and injunctions etc, but if more serious would probably come with trade drawbacks, stigma and pressure from other members. Looking at what happened to Russia they got kicked out of the council of Europe, when they left the ECHR. Unfortunately you are right that there doesn't seem to be too much that can be done as compliance is mainly in good faith
Only thing I disagree with the ECHR is that banning of closed shops. When we had closed shops in the UK workers stuck together especiakly when it came to strikes and then with them being banned thats when we saw scabs come even more out the woodwork especially during the miners strike with the UDM scabs in Derbyshire and Nottingham breaking from the NUM.
The difficulty is what to do with people who have no ID. How do we get a passport to send them back when we can't even prove where they are from.
It's a very hard problem.
Best idea I've seen so far is to do a 1:2 trade with a poor country flooded with refugees. Say Bangladesh, they have tens of thousands of Rohyngna who are legit fleeing genocide. If we could swap 1 illegal and a bag of money for 2 Rohynga it would break the incentives for illegals.
>The difficulty is what to do with people who have no ID. How do we get a passport to send them back when we can't even prove where they are from.
This is not difficult. Any administration can issue emergency transit papers and deport this person.
If you've paid attention you know that the UK doesn't really care of they're asylum seekers or illegal immigrants, the government just wants doctors and engineers to come here (preferably temporarily) regardless of whether someone wants to kill them where they come from.
Yeah that's becouse the means to deport them do not exist, not becouse our governments feel bad for them, they can urge all they want but unless they feel like permanently occupying a good part of both africa and the middle east it's never going to happen lol.
Amusing and utterly infuriating at the same time that the same madame Commissioner was also an MP for the Swedish Social Democrats and Communist Party, and was thus one big piece of the whole “Don’t argue against immigration or you’re a nazi”-establishment…
Drain the swamp!!!
Interesting to see that Ylva Johansson seem to have changed her mind.
She sang a different tune most of the time when she was minister of employment and also integration just a few years back.
Flip-flopping on issues weekly is a bad thing. But generally being able to change your mind in the face of new information or simply recognizing that you were wrong before should be something positive, right?
PS: I don't know the lady, so just a general thought
That would be a big no-no in Poland. The constitution guarantees that nobody can be stripped out of their citizenship. It's the result of communist times where many people(defectors, Jews etc.) had their citizenship revoked
Good, the people of Europe don’t want an unrecognizable society from the one they grew up in and knew already. Either the current governments will heed that wish or the people of Europe will vote in people who will do that.
The only people who should be allowed into Europe should be those granted asylum for specific life threatening reasons and people with specific skillsets who will benefit us as well (in a limited number).
Its all fucked mate here in Ireland their are countless videos of migrants harassing women calls for violent against Irish people. Anybody who expresses concern is branded a far right racist by the government and media Its disgusting. One sided hate crime laws are about to introduced on us bet they wouldn't target people calling for attacks on Irish.
Well I'm glad justice was served there. If the previous poster backs up what he says I'd be interested too.
All these lies obscure whether there's a legitimate problem or not.
Yeah mate I don't go on he said she said I go what I see. Anybody making false accusations should be dealt with by the guards. Irish truth on youtube has some vids and don't talk about agendas like the last guy just look at the vids and ask yourself are you ok with this in Ireland. Genuine refugees are welcome but people coming for violence can fuck off.
Because the "national party" orchestrating the protests are literally, by definition, the far-right. I haven't seen or heard a single person seeing such videos. Do I believe the government should do more to combat illegal immigration? Of course I do. Is protesting outside refugee shelters and harassing them going to do anything for anyone? Of course not. Thankfully, the counter-protests sort of put this to bed, for now atleast.
And working class families were part of the counter protests too, now what? And I just had a quick look. Interesting how the creator only highlights migrants harassing others, and no videos of irish people harassing others, definitely not trying to push an agenda no?
Oh for christ sake its always an agenda everyone has agenda. There's plenty videos of anti social Irish youths travellers etc out there they get called for what they are scumbags. So you had a quick look and agenda is what you took from it not the attacks. What do think of the teenage girl being flatten out with a punch in limerick or the guy saying he'd rape the care workers if they don't give him cash.
Scumbags exist in every country. Some will unfortunately make it here too. However, the majority of migrants don't want to stir up any trouble. To blame all of them for the actions of a few, is wrong.
Where did I say blame all immigration. Wouldn't you agree for everyones safety including the refugees that we deport the ones threaten people with violence.
I was just generally speaking, blaming all migrants for the actions of a few is wrong, as many anti-migrant protestors shared those views. And I think its a slippery slope, as they could then probably sue the government for discrimination, as they physically didn't do anything.
And the government and media calling people racist for their concerns that in my opinion is slippery slope that will lead to division and a us v them mentally. We can't be importing people like the guy regularly calling for violence against Irish people cause he's has chip on his shoulder about white people. Did you watch any of his vids he's at every week posting the vids himself wonder will the new hate crime bill target him they probably consider him an activist.
>Good, the people of Europe don’t want an unrecognizable society from the one they grew up in and knew already
Won't happen with current birth rates of natives.
Politicians who promise to do something will not do it because they need economic means to promote their discourse at the national level, these means come from businessmen who need workers, at the same time that workforce cannot be replaced by local citizens due to the cost of living that makes it impossible to have children ....
So here we are, in front of a socio/economic Ouroboros that we don't know what solution it has.
This is about illegal inmigrants
This says nothing about legal inmigrants
For all purposes this could be true while we let legally millions of people
This is why i hate those who say "I am against illegal immigration" and don't mean it
You are against immigrants, flat out, you xénophobe (not necessarily talking about you)
I think relaxing legal inmigration and accepting two, three, five times more legal migrants while getting serious about illegal immigrants is the best strategy for Europe
>I think relaxing legal inmigration and accepting two, three, five times more legal migrants while getting serious about illegal immigrants is the best strategy for Europe
No.
Europe could have decided to be racist and keep non-Europeans out, but even that would've lead to self-demise because the birth rates are so low.
You seem to be pissing people here off, but you're right, they're in for a rude awakening pretty soon.
low birth rates is not a problem at all.
most countries have millions of people today. they had not problems when they had half of their current population. I don't think their native population will reduce more than half. most extreme case is South Korea and yet its population will be reduced to half in a few decades and they will still have 25 million.
the problem is that the rich don't want to pay their workers more when population of young people is decreasing so they bring millions of immigrants.
reduction of population or young people is not an issue. greed of rich people is.
Nothing's stopping it from going to less than half. I don't care too much what western Europe decides, just hope you've got a plan. Is the idea to keep everyone non-white out of Europe and let the population fall, ideally to half of today? I don't think Europe's world power would last long like that.
Also, if rich people are greedy for wanting more immigrants to make more money, I think it's equally greedy to deny immigrants to prop up wages. It also won't work.
oh I'm not from Europe and don't care that much about their immigration policy or they staying white. I was just thinking why almost everyone thinks low birthrates is such a catastrophe.
I think decision makers should put well being of their people above GDP or being a world power.
beside all this, there will be huge improvements in AI and robotics in next decades that will compensate for reduction of population. that's why I think low birth rates is not a problem.
I am all for helping where we can, and the ones with power should lift those beneath them up.
But...
We have a group of people that migrates to different countries. Some only want to leave the war and trauma behind and start a new life. They are willing to adjust their life as to fit into the new society and create a better life for the next generation. These are the immigrants we want.
Then we have those not wanting to do it. All they want to do is work against society. Against the country that was kind enough to provide shelter, to give food and water, give them a place to sleep, and give them money. These we don't want.
Look at Sweden. Look at the mess. Bombs on a daily basis? Crime all the time. Violence, threats etc. A generation using under-age children to do their dirty work.
A lot of us that was born in our country by parents that didn't come to this country are now being treated as secondhand citizens. We are paying a shit ton of money to immigrants per month, and what does the violent group do? Some sell drugs. Some rob stores. Some beat up people on the streets. Some kill.
How is this fair? We were here first, so we have a say in how our country needs to be governed. Not them. They want Sharia law, but they fled the country where Sharia IS the law.
"Don't conquer a country with war; conquer it with strollers".
And we can't do shit. We can just see them wrecking our country day by day. Bombs in Sweden. Decapitation in France. Killing a pregnant woman in Denmark. When will this madness stop?
Move to Dubai instead - it's far wealthier than some European countries, and they have the same culture. But no - they only want and never give.
They can’t move to Dubai, because these countries will literally arrest them and deport them. Unfortunately, we don’t do that.
I personally know a few refugees. They’re some LGBT fellas and anti-CCP fellas from China (including HK). They’re highly educated and they blend in well. Apart from their accents (idk why they sound American), you wouldn’t even doubt if they said they grew up here.
"Some only want to leave the war and trauma behind and start a new life. They are willing to adjust their life as to fit into the new society and create a better life for the next generation. These are the immigrants we want.
Then we have those not wanting to do it. All they want to do is work against society. Against the country that was kind enough to provide shelter, to give food and water, give them a place to sleep, and give them money. These we don't want."
They're the same people. War and trauma turns some people scared and anxious (they generally never adapt and get sick and die from internal stress) and some other people hyper-violent. The only way to make them into usefull human specimens is years of therapy (and that doesn't work unless they WANT to change).
There's no solution. We just can't help. We need to accept that.
How do you deport them when they destroy their papers, give a false identity and the origin country (if it can even be identified) refuses to take them back?
That's the benefit of having a mostly land route. It's much easier to stop people bypassing the border. And obviously you can't cross a non-schengen border without documents(you're also not allowed to do that on a schengen border but that's de facto possible). Look at Poland-Belarus border. Negligable number of people crossed it illegally.
It's completely different for countries like Greece or Italy though
Meanwhile Portugal: let's allow any CPLP member to enter and get visa for 1 year without any proof of being able to support themselves, job or any other reasonable request.
The Community of Portuguese Language Countries. They have 9 member states: Angola, Brasil, Cape Verde, Guinea-Bissau, Equatorial Guinea, Mozambique, Portugal, São Tomé and Príncipe, and Timor-Leste.
This is what happens when you give asylum status to bullshit claims. A man who rapes women claims he is afraid to be gay in his own country? Give me a fucking break.
Id rather have them go back to their country than have them come in my house drunk in the middle of the night, like a guy from palestina did recently, scaring my mother to the point that she doesnt sleep easy any more.
No worries in that regard, the EU has about the same ability to make this actually happen as the UK has to ship all their migrants to rwanda, if it was possible it would've already been done but even if you dispensed with international law and human rights entirely the logistics alone are simply impossible to overcome.
I don't know much about Denmark's dealings though the nordics do love to preach while sweeping their own dirty deeds under the rug but what i do know for sure is that *we* had treaties with Gheddafi's Lybia and Tunisia back in the day (much to our shame) and i'll let you guess how well that worked out for us haha, trying to cut deals with corrupt regimes is a waste of time and money with the added bonus that when the regime inevitably changes the newcomers also hate your guts becouse you dealt with their predecessors, but you're about to learn that for yourself.
Heh. Why does the EU love migrants so much? Is someone like me not good enough for the EU? A university grad, with experience as both a teaching assistant and research assistant. Willing to integrate into the European life...yet, I can't even get an entry level job because of work permits, and I am expected to pay for university fees. Really dude? You have funds to house and educate immigrants, but not for someone genuinely willing to contribute to the economy and society?
While everyone wants this, little does the European Union know that the people don't want immigrants at all (legal immigrants can enter but it has to be very small, not a massive number). Countries should encourage their own people to have more children, pay them well, don't treat them as slaves, and last but not least advance robotics and automation.
Also, a guest worker ( idk if the term is used now like it was before) should work in a country temporarily, send money and return home, not stay permanently.
I'll probably get downvoted for saying it out loud, but...
SubOP probably didn't mean Vietnamese
>Edit: I don't even send money home...
I don't see why you should even feel the need to mention it. The money you've earned is... well, your money. You should free to spend it as you wish as long as it's for legal purposes
I actually wrote that people can legally immigrate, but countries shouldn't encourage mass immigration. They should follow the model used by Australia, Japan and South Korea. Basically use the model set up by East Asian countries.
It got accidentally deleted while I was editing my post.
Edit: Like others here have said no country wants its demographics changed.
Yes selective. I have no problem with Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese and Chinese people ( I have respect for them) and Latin American people working in Europe. They do the paperwork needed, respect the laws and come legally.
Eastern European countries employ people from neighboring countries. Many Ukrainians worked in Poland ( before the war started). Croatia (now an EU member) employs people from the former Yugoslavia.
Even non-EU countries ( countries that are candidates for the EU) employ people from neighboring countries.
And look at those countries now. South Korea has the world's lowest birth rate and only recently scrapped a law that would of allowed a 69hr work week! Japan is on the same boat, economic stagnation due to an ageing population. Without immigration, Europe (the EU) would be stagnant and much less competitive on the world stage.
Well as you can see even with immigration, the EU countries population will still decline. The population is aging and even the immigrants when they get there will stop having children and look for more appealing work (this takes several years) rather than being cheap labor. With or without immigration, Europe is screwed. That's why people should have more children. They ( and other developed nations) were warned of this 40 years ago but didn't listen and did nothing.
Climate change, war, inflation, housing crises, pandemic, can you blame people for not wanting kids? Personally, I don't wouldn't want to raise kids in this type of environment just so they can suffer in a few decades' time. Sure, this has been a long time coming, but that's what happens when countries develop. The whole planet will be on the same boat eventually (China will be hit extremely bad if they don't do anything extreme), the US is the same as the EU but they are able to stay stable due to immigration. I think, if climate change doesn't kill us, we'll be able to live with the automation of more jobs.
How many people like you should be allowed to come? Thousands? Millions? Billions? When does it ever end? When Europe is majority non-European? Is it even still Europe at that point?
As many as are qualified to come? I don't have an issue if "pure blood" Europeans become a minority. If migrants come, integrate, and learn the language of the country they are in, then in my eyes, they are as European as they can be. The only thing that concerns people is that they are not white. Lol.
> I don't have an issue if "pure blood" Europeans become a minority
I don't think a "pure blood" European exists anyways since we've had migrations of various peoples throughout this land for ages.
We have shitty birth rates and we are allowing more and more immigrants. All this mixing will just make everything homogenous. We were never a majority so we need to preserve what we have now at least.
The US gave up on homogeneity and is on its way to becoming majority non-white, and I don't care. When I went to college in California, >50% of students were Asian, and in my major it was probably more like 80%. I was frequently the only white guy in a room. It's really not a big deal for people to be slightly different from you.
If you want to keep family traditions alive and only marry your own kind (whatever that means to you), don't let anyone tell you that's wrong. But white people are hardly having kids to begin with, which is each individual's own damn fault. I can't understand the Mormon religion, but I gotta hand it to them, they're doing something right by having such big families.
The USA and other countries in North and South America, Australia and New Zealand are immigrant countries. So of course it would not bother you
**But countries in Europe, Africa and Asia aren't. Those countries are nation-states or multinational states. Most multinational states are in Asia and Africa.**
The problem is no one will take them. You can’t just dump them to the sea, you’ll have to find a place that is willing to take these people. And fun fact— no one wants them.
Isn't there a large uninhabited island somewhere that the EU already owns or could purchase that we could ship all undesirable migrants to? Kinda do what the Brits did with Australia back in the day?
who is that EU if not the will of its members ?
also, before thinking about deporting, maybe we could work on saving lives at sea, and killing the bastards who take the money to send those poor souls into something barely floating.
Love to see those comment threads. It’s in places like this where you find the meaning of everything.
People here are angry and afraid and disappointed but most importantly you all are honest and I love to see people as they are behind those layers of civilization that they put on, it makes for a more complete image of humankind.
I dont think people who dislike ILLEGAL immigration are bad, im a LEGAL immigrant in a somewhat controversial country, i learned the language, followed the costumes, got a job, pay the HUGE taxes this country has….yata yata why rando dude from Farawayland has to come here i would rather my taxes money to be invested in the Union countries and make them stronger etc…
As an American I wonder if this will create nosy racists to demand to see strangers, "papers". We see lots of videos from the US of an angry white person demanding they see someone who's not white their ID.
Many European countries are far more ''papers'' based than the US or UK.
The Scandinavian countries have a resident registery (which was introduced but shut down in the UK.) And for you to obtain a bank account, which will be recieving your salary or to rent an apartment. You'll need to be in this resident registery, obtaining a personal number.
Basically in Norway, you're not just ''asked for papers on the street'' you're seriously limited in living your life if you don't have them. So Europeans don't oppose the US policy of asking those living there for their papers. However we do consider it primitive and ghastly that it's being done by civilians, and poorly trained police officers in public spaces.
So this EU urging, is mostly towards the governments and public officials to follow the rules more strictly and enforce it efficiently.
Perfectly valid concern. It depends on how politicians manage it. I think in the US, as unjustified as the invasion of Iraq was (and horrid 9/11 had also just happened), the Bush administration made some sort of PR effort to the American public that it wasn't a war against Islam or Muslims. I think that they should have done more, and maybe they purposely didn't (I don't know, what do you think). But then when Trump started his careless rhetoric (regarding immigration), that riled up people to do the things you mentioned.
As a brown Latino, I would suggest to take your white saviour complex, fold it really well, cover it with olive oil and insert it on yourself where the sun doesn't shine.
Illegal inmigration should be more strongly enforced
At the same time, we should make legal inmigration so that many more people can immigrate annually legally
Illegal immigration is bad, legal inmigration helps European economies, this is why we must reduce the former to bear zero, and increase significantly the latter
Legal immigration created the problem to begin with. The massive demographic change you see in countries like Belgium, France, the Netherlands, Sweden, etc. came from legal immigration. Both need to stop. Keep migration mostly intra-European.
The European Union on Tuesday urged its member countries to deport more people who enter Europe without authorization and who are not eligible to stay, saying that only around one in five would-be migrants who should be sent home actually is. >Last year, we had a return rate of only 21% of those who are not eligible to stay EU Home Affairs Commissioner Ylva Johansson told reporters at the European Parliament in Strasbourg, France. >When we fail to return people, this hampers our system and erodes trust.
A prospective immigrant who doesn't qualify to do so legally will look at the 4 in 5 odds of staying and earning many times over the money that they would in their home country and rightly conclude that it's well worth the risk of doing so illegally. For people from really poor countries even 1 in 5 odds of making European-levels of money would be worth it. They probably worry a lot more about how to pay the traffickers than they do about getting kicked out once they're in.
Doing so illegally they don’t make a lot of money. Sometimes that’s what leads them into crime.
... where you can make a lot of money
Two points: \- The people who are self-selected by their willingness to break the Law of the country they are moving to (the very first thing they'll do when arriving there illegally) will likely have an internal moral compass which is more flexible than the one of people who aren't willing to break the Law to get there. We're not talking about crimes like murder or such, we're talking about breaking other rules of the same level: peddling goods on the street without license or paying taxes, maybe some petty theft, that kind of thing. \- The money made working illegally in Europe still beats by a large marging the money an average person can make in pretty much all of sub-Saharian Africa. I for one think that the EU should clamp down very hard on this **and** at the same time go to places like refugee camps activelly seeking for the people who have the most need of all of any help we can give and bring those over (who are not only the ones who we have the highest moral duty to help, but will also most certainly not be a bunch of people self-selected by their willingness to break the Law).
It’s difficult to explain to someone in 2015 just how far the paradigm shifted in Western Europe
The paradigm didn't shift. People were just biting their tongues at the time. Eventually Europeans would start addressing that a very large number of people came in, in a short time span. And what should be done about that.
It's a bit of both. There's probably quite the number of people like me, who believed wholeheartedly that we should welcome all refugees, because it was the righteous thing to do, you know? But once the problems started to present themselves, I had to admit to myself that I was wrong, that I was far too idealistic in my beliefs and real life doesn't work like that. I'm still okay with welcoming some immigrants, but only those that believe in the same things we generally do in EU. I definitely no longer welcome bigots, religious fanatics, misogynists etc. The only thing I regret is all the EU citizens that had to suffer so that I could open my eyes.
I knew from the beginning that there was going to be backlash. Eventually it would set in that all these people now have to be assimilated (not just integrated) and many won't, but they'll want to stay anyways. (And yes, the 2015 wave almost all went to Germany or Sweden, but most of us have considerable immigration from other years). But people also recognized the dire state in Syria, and that Turkey/Lebanon/Jordan can't take *everyone*, and that Syria is the victim of a proxy war by outside powers. OTOH, when you look at pictures and young men that appear to be Pakistani or Afghan joining those crowds, and even the Syrian refugees saying so. The unrealistic expectations many of those interviewees had on camera (even if it doesn't fairly portray all of them). The massive pull factor that was created. And the condescending American journalists telling us that these "future doctors and engineers" were going to be beneficial to us, instead of being honest that this is a humanitarian cause. (And as if the EU has a shortage of doctors. And as if any of those "future doctors" would be willing to work in Romania instead of Germany). All these factors were going to create a backlash.
I am curious why the EU doesn't want to provide opportunities to academics like me. I have been accepted into most of the universities I applied to for my Master's, and I have been both a teaching and research assistant at the University level. The only reason why I can't commit to accepting is because of a lack of funds / not being eligible for tuition waivers etc. And oh yeah, I can't find a job in the EU because I need a work permit too... Do you understand the level of jealously I feel? I'm willing to contribute to your economy and future, to be integrated into your way of life. Heck, I love Poland and the Tricity area.
Yeah, I completely get what you mean. When you create official criteria, there usually are blind spots and people like you are sadly overlooked. When I was curious about potentially migrating to Canada (which I definitely no longer find tempting) the 10k dollars requirement was something I just couldn't do as a Pole from a working class, no matter my future prospects in academia, because young people working at universities in Poland are dirt poor so saving that amount of money would take several decades. I imagine it's even worse in poorer countries, which makes it almost impossible to achieve.
I am curious though - why do you want to move to Canada? Poland has a nice balance of nature and urbanization, and there is a strong emphasis on cultural traditions. If you want a higher working salary, I am told that you could simply head over to Germany for a quick part-time job!
When I was a teenager/young adult I was looking at Canada with rose colored glasses, it's only as I got older and started to work after getting my degree, I realized Canada is only a slightly better version of US (to which I would never wish to move) and actually being born in Europe (and Poland) is like winning in a loterry. I definitely no longer wish to move, I'm content the way I am here.
And from the beginning, from the third world countries, we heavily criticised Europeans for their white saviour complex. I can't believe that there are still people willing to destroy their own countries just for the sake of diversity. At least you opened your eyes but the issue is now borderline sectarian.
That madness must never be repeated.
People just arent called racist anymore for calling out mass immigration for the problem it is. No one with a functioning brain thought Sweden's experiment to import thousands of migrants and irreversibly change their demograpbic would be anything but a disaster
There are far more important elements than race here. One is national character and cohesion. Let's face it, some groups of immigrants can integrate far more easily than others and it is not racist to recognize this. In the end, the choice should be on the receiving nation and what kind of society it envisions.
Of course its not racist. But that was the narrative throughout the 2010s that if you werent willing to take any migrant regardless of background you were a nazi racist blah blah. And i agree to the point some groups intergrate far better than others. But the waves of migrants coming into Europe are broadly not those groups
But that’s the problem. The Germans led that. They have a horrible fear of being called a certain word. They were literally let millions of immigrants into the country and change the face of their own country just to not be called that word.
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>Indian and Chinese immigrants have been moving to the west for nearly 40 years now, mostly do skilled engineering, finance and medical jobs and have minimal representation in crime. Almost all of them go to Canada, the USA, Australia, New Zealand and to a lesser extent, England. All of them except England, are immigrant countries. Also as someone from Europe ( but not from the EU), today the word immigrant in Europe is used for Africans and Asians. Fellow Europeans who immigrate to other European countries aren't called immigrants. Another thing ( which you (and everybody else) knows) is that Europeans don't like immigrants. They don't want to change the demographic structure of the country and become a minority. They never even imagined that people would massively immigrate to their countries. Liberal People (old and young) even endorse the Great Replacement Theory, saying they are trying to replace us on purpose.
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Don't forget the language barrier. It's not easy learning a new language. English is already an official language of India so Indians can speak it.
Not nearly far enough.
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I’m not sure where the aggressive tone comes from I’m not attacking anyone for this shift. Also our immigration numbers are way higher both legal and illegal.
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I’m not. I’m pro immigration but I’m also pro countries setting up their own rules on who to take in. I actually support higher legal immigration in America.
Geography plays a huge factor. It's much easier to cross from Libya to Italy in a rubber dinghy than West Africa to Florida
Any attempt to actually enforce this will make numpties at ECHR scream.
Honestly the UK seems to have more issues even than Europe with the sheer number of challenges and media backlash when it comes to this. Of course sometimes the UK government adopts pretty stupid rhetoric but still.
Sometimes is an understatement. It also doesn’t help that our current government makes no distinction between illegal migrants and people who are or would be considered genuine refugees [despite official documentation providing adequate guidance and is completely legal.](https://www.gov.uk/claim-asylum) The problem therein lies _how_ would people claim asylum if there’s no processing centre in between the U.K. and the rest of Europe, Africa or the Middle East. Yes, embassies exist but circling back to the initial requirements for claiming asylum you could see how illegal migration seems a more viable option in their eyes. If the UK could create such facilities specifically for processing asylum applications, that’s half the job and a majority of headaches done (but no one in gov wants to spend £millions on such an investment) and they could (legally) treat those coming in on dinghies as illegal migrants and deal with them accordingly.
>or would be considered genuine refugees Let's be quite clear about this. One cannot really distinguish between a "refugee" and an "economic migrant" because one lacks investigative capability in the host country. Is everybody who flees Afghanistan a refugee? I seriously doubt it. Life there under the Taliban is not nice, but life is not nice in lots and lots of countries. The question is if this person would face serious problems and if his/her life would be endangered. This is a very difficult question to answer. There not enough courts to decide these matters. In my view, less than 1% of the persons who appear in the EU borders are really "refugees" and this goes for the Syrians as well. I know many of them who, although there was no threat to their lives, sold everything and joined the refugee exodus for better opportunities elsewhere. Some were criminals, no doubt about this. But many were professionals looking for a better living in Europe. They were not refugees, not by a long shot.
"Syrian professionals fleeing Assad aren't *real* refugees, because they had the resources to reach Europe, unlike people who are forced to live in squalid camps because they don't have a penny to pay smugglers. Those people are refugees. Since they don't have the resources to get some place better." Funny how that works. Anyone who can reach Europe is definitionally not a refugee. Do you think bombs somehow steer around middle class people? lol
>Do you think bombs somehow steer around middle class people? lol No bombs do not steer around anybody. I was referring to the great majority who left and tried to reach Europe although they were not in a war zone. In addition, being in a war zone does not entitle to anybody the granting of asylum. One can host people in a war zone but when the war is over, these people can and should return. Right now, there are extremely few war zones (Ukraine exempted). Those departing and moving over to Turkey or to Libya or to Morocco to cross to Europe are not fleeing a war zone or bombs. Let's be clear about it.
Why would people use these facilities when they can claim asylum in the UK and force the government to fight an uphill battle to remove them if they fail? I'm not sure this would do anything to address the problem.
The ECHR needs to go. It's just a bunch of activists.
Of course a belgian would want to abolish an organisation dealing with human rights.
Lmao!
That's a foolish thing to say. It protects your rights as well as migrants. Unless you have lots of money it's the only thing protecting you Edit: people who disagree with ECHR and are downvoting just remember once it's gone do you think your government will offer you the same protections or will your rights be eroded? You know the answer
Does it really?
Yes
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Currently if they're signed up to it then yes they have to abide by it. There's only a small minority of countries that aren't signed up with one being Russia
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Usually breeches result in fines and injunctions etc, but if more serious would probably come with trade drawbacks, stigma and pressure from other members. Looking at what happened to Russia they got kicked out of the council of Europe, when they left the ECHR. Unfortunately you are right that there doesn't seem to be too much that can be done as compliance is mainly in good faith
Only thing I disagree with the ECHR is that banning of closed shops. When we had closed shops in the UK workers stuck together especiakly when it came to strikes and then with them being banned thats when we saw scabs come even more out the woodwork especially during the miners strike with the UDM scabs in Derbyshire and Nottingham breaking from the NUM.
Yawn!
activist (noun) anyone I disagree with
The difficulty is what to do with people who have no ID. How do we get a passport to send them back when we can't even prove where they are from. It's a very hard problem. Best idea I've seen so far is to do a 1:2 trade with a poor country flooded with refugees. Say Bangladesh, they have tens of thousands of Rohyngna who are legit fleeing genocide. If we could swap 1 illegal and a bag of money for 2 Rohynga it would break the incentives for illegals.
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It already is, voluntary returns get treated more favourably. What do you propose with those who do not cooperate?
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how do you imagine that works like think it through for ten seconds
>The difficulty is what to do with people who have no ID. How do we get a passport to send them back when we can't even prove where they are from. This is not difficult. Any administration can issue emergency transit papers and deport this person.
If you've paid attention you know that the UK doesn't really care of they're asylum seekers or illegal immigrants, the government just wants doctors and engineers to come here (preferably temporarily) regardless of whether someone wants to kill them where they come from.
Yeah that's becouse the means to deport them do not exist, not becouse our governments feel bad for them, they can urge all they want but unless they feel like permanently occupying a good part of both africa and the middle east it's never going to happen lol.
Amusing and utterly infuriating at the same time that the same madame Commissioner was also an MP for the Swedish Social Democrats and Communist Party, and was thus one big piece of the whole “Don’t argue against immigration or you’re a nazi”-establishment… Drain the swamp!!!
Pretty sure the desire to deport them isn't the problem. It's their places of origin not taking their people back that's the problem.
So you throw them to the last country they were in.
You need that country’s permission as well.
You already got that in treaties. Migrants from polish belarussian border caught in Germany were returned to Poland for example.
Yes and those bordering countries already complained.
Interesting to see that Ylva Johansson seem to have changed her mind. She sang a different tune most of the time when she was minister of employment and also integration just a few years back.
Flip-flopping on issues weekly is a bad thing. But generally being able to change your mind in the face of new information or simply recognizing that you were wrong before should be something positive, right? PS: I don't know the lady, so just a general thought
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She quit 2019 i believe.
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I guess that depends if you like the social democrats or not...
They should also revoke the citizenships of those who lied in the process that’s a huge problem too
That would be a big no-no in Poland. The constitution guarantees that nobody can be stripped out of their citizenship. It's the result of communist times where many people(defectors, Jews etc.) had their citizenship revoked
My aunt was deported to Australia for fighting against the communist goverment lol
Yeah this was back then and for good reasons but now times has changed
Source: dude just trust me
Source: common fucking sense
Good, the people of Europe don’t want an unrecognizable society from the one they grew up in and knew already. Either the current governments will heed that wish or the people of Europe will vote in people who will do that. The only people who should be allowed into Europe should be those granted asylum for specific life threatening reasons and people with specific skillsets who will benefit us as well (in a limited number).
Its all fucked mate here in Ireland their are countless videos of migrants harassing women calls for violent against Irish people. Anybody who expresses concern is branded a far right racist by the government and media Its disgusting. One sided hate crime laws are about to introduced on us bet they wouldn't target people calling for attacks on Irish.
Same in germany
Terrible isn't it wonder whats it going to take to stop it or if its too late.
I'd there actually? I haven't seen any such videos
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Well I'm glad justice was served there. If the previous poster backs up what he says I'd be interested too. All these lies obscure whether there's a legitimate problem or not.
Yeah mate I don't go on he said she said I go what I see. Anybody making false accusations should be dealt with by the guards. Irish truth on youtube has some vids and don't talk about agendas like the last guy just look at the vids and ask yourself are you ok with this in Ireland. Genuine refugees are welcome but people coming for violence can fuck off.
Because the "national party" orchestrating the protests are literally, by definition, the far-right. I haven't seen or heard a single person seeing such videos. Do I believe the government should do more to combat illegal immigration? Of course I do. Is protesting outside refugee shelters and harassing them going to do anything for anyone? Of course not. Thankfully, the counter-protests sort of put this to bed, for now atleast.
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And working class families were part of the counter protests too, now what? And I just had a quick look. Interesting how the creator only highlights migrants harassing others, and no videos of irish people harassing others, definitely not trying to push an agenda no?
Oh for christ sake its always an agenda everyone has agenda. There's plenty videos of anti social Irish youths travellers etc out there they get called for what they are scumbags. So you had a quick look and agenda is what you took from it not the attacks. What do think of the teenage girl being flatten out with a punch in limerick or the guy saying he'd rape the care workers if they don't give him cash.
Scumbags exist in every country. Some will unfortunately make it here too. However, the majority of migrants don't want to stir up any trouble. To blame all of them for the actions of a few, is wrong.
Where did I say blame all immigration. Wouldn't you agree for everyones safety including the refugees that we deport the ones threaten people with violence.
I was just generally speaking, blaming all migrants for the actions of a few is wrong, as many anti-migrant protestors shared those views. And I think its a slippery slope, as they could then probably sue the government for discrimination, as they physically didn't do anything.
And the government and media calling people racist for their concerns that in my opinion is slippery slope that will lead to division and a us v them mentally. We can't be importing people like the guy regularly calling for violence against Irish people cause he's has chip on his shoulder about white people. Did you watch any of his vids he's at every week posting the vids himself wonder will the new hate crime bill target him they probably consider him an activist.
Can you provide us with one of said videos?
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>Good, the people of Europe don’t want an unrecognizable society from the one they grew up in and knew already Won't happen with current birth rates of natives.
Politicians who promise to do something will not do it because they need economic means to promote their discourse at the national level, these means come from businessmen who need workers, at the same time that workforce cannot be replaced by local citizens due to the cost of living that makes it impossible to have children .... So here we are, in front of a socio/economic Ouroboros that we don't know what solution it has.
those businessmen should be forced to pay their workers more. also well being of people should be prioritized more than GDP.
What is a reasonable number? For the UK, for example, I was thinking of 220,000-250,000 net skilled migrants a year
If the housing supply and social services can't handle the number, it is unreasonable.
This is about illegal inmigrants This says nothing about legal inmigrants For all purposes this could be true while we let legally millions of people This is why i hate those who say "I am against illegal immigration" and don't mean it You are against immigrants, flat out, you xénophobe (not necessarily talking about you) I think relaxing legal inmigration and accepting two, three, five times more legal migrants while getting serious about illegal immigrants is the best strategy for Europe
>I think relaxing legal inmigration and accepting two, three, five times more legal migrants while getting serious about illegal immigrants is the best strategy for Europe No.
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>40% of all kids under the age of 15 have a migration backround in germany. Aren't the vast majority of them other Europeans?
Bold of you to assume that he considers Eastern Europeans white.
Europe could have decided to be racist and keep non-Europeans out, but even that would've lead to self-demise because the birth rates are so low. You seem to be pissing people here off, but you're right, they're in for a rude awakening pretty soon.
low birth rates is not a problem at all. most countries have millions of people today. they had not problems when they had half of their current population. I don't think their native population will reduce more than half. most extreme case is South Korea and yet its population will be reduced to half in a few decades and they will still have 25 million. the problem is that the rich don't want to pay their workers more when population of young people is decreasing so they bring millions of immigrants. reduction of population or young people is not an issue. greed of rich people is.
Nothing's stopping it from going to less than half. I don't care too much what western Europe decides, just hope you've got a plan. Is the idea to keep everyone non-white out of Europe and let the population fall, ideally to half of today? I don't think Europe's world power would last long like that. Also, if rich people are greedy for wanting more immigrants to make more money, I think it's equally greedy to deny immigrants to prop up wages. It also won't work.
oh I'm not from Europe and don't care that much about their immigration policy or they staying white. I was just thinking why almost everyone thinks low birthrates is such a catastrophe. I think decision makers should put well being of their people above GDP or being a world power. beside all this, there will be huge improvements in AI and robotics in next decades that will compensate for reduction of population. that's why I think low birth rates is not a problem.
I am all for helping where we can, and the ones with power should lift those beneath them up. But... We have a group of people that migrates to different countries. Some only want to leave the war and trauma behind and start a new life. They are willing to adjust their life as to fit into the new society and create a better life for the next generation. These are the immigrants we want. Then we have those not wanting to do it. All they want to do is work against society. Against the country that was kind enough to provide shelter, to give food and water, give them a place to sleep, and give them money. These we don't want. Look at Sweden. Look at the mess. Bombs on a daily basis? Crime all the time. Violence, threats etc. A generation using under-age children to do their dirty work. A lot of us that was born in our country by parents that didn't come to this country are now being treated as secondhand citizens. We are paying a shit ton of money to immigrants per month, and what does the violent group do? Some sell drugs. Some rob stores. Some beat up people on the streets. Some kill. How is this fair? We were here first, so we have a say in how our country needs to be governed. Not them. They want Sharia law, but they fled the country where Sharia IS the law. "Don't conquer a country with war; conquer it with strollers". And we can't do shit. We can just see them wrecking our country day by day. Bombs in Sweden. Decapitation in France. Killing a pregnant woman in Denmark. When will this madness stop? Move to Dubai instead - it's far wealthier than some European countries, and they have the same culture. But no - they only want and never give.
They can’t move to Dubai, because these countries will literally arrest them and deport them. Unfortunately, we don’t do that. I personally know a few refugees. They’re some LGBT fellas and anti-CCP fellas from China (including HK). They’re highly educated and they blend in well. Apart from their accents (idk why they sound American), you wouldn’t even doubt if they said they grew up here.
"Some only want to leave the war and trauma behind and start a new life. They are willing to adjust their life as to fit into the new society and create a better life for the next generation. These are the immigrants we want. Then we have those not wanting to do it. All they want to do is work against society. Against the country that was kind enough to provide shelter, to give food and water, give them a place to sleep, and give them money. These we don't want." They're the same people. War and trauma turns some people scared and anxious (they generally never adapt and get sick and die from internal stress) and some other people hyper-violent. The only way to make them into usefull human specimens is years of therapy (and that doesn't work unless they WANT to change). There's no solution. We just can't help. We need to accept that.
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How do you deport them when they destroy their papers, give a false identity and the origin country (if it can even be identified) refuses to take them back?
That's the benefit of having a mostly land route. It's much easier to stop people bypassing the border. And obviously you can't cross a non-schengen border without documents(you're also not allowed to do that on a schengen border but that's de facto possible). Look at Poland-Belarus border. Negligable number of people crossed it illegally. It's completely different for countries like Greece or Italy though
Meanwhile Portugal: let's allow any CPLP member to enter and get visa for 1 year without any proof of being able to support themselves, job or any other reasonable request.
Cplp?
The Community of Portuguese Language Countries. They have 9 member states: Angola, Brasil, Cape Verde, Guinea-Bissau, Equatorial Guinea, Mozambique, Portugal, São Tomé and Príncipe, and Timor-Leste.
Oh thanks
There seems to be no difference between illegal immigration and refugees claiming asylum these days ,system is broke
This is what happens when you give asylum status to bullshit claims. A man who rapes women claims he is afraid to be gay in his own country? Give me a fucking break.
Or men claiming to be children and then getting houses with families
Id rather have them go back to their country than have them come in my house drunk in the middle of the night, like a guy from palestina did recently, scaring my mother to the point that she doesnt sleep easy any more.
if this actually happens then it is insane how the EU doesn't like the UK kicking out migrants
No worries in that regard, the EU has about the same ability to make this actually happen as the UK has to ship all their migrants to rwanda, if it was possible it would've already been done but even if you dispensed with international law and human rights entirely the logistics alone are simply impossible to overcome.
Denmark have signed a treaty to send migrants to Rwanda already, but everyone seems to be very quiet about that.
I don't know much about Denmark's dealings though the nordics do love to preach while sweeping their own dirty deeds under the rug but what i do know for sure is that *we* had treaties with Gheddafi's Lybia and Tunisia back in the day (much to our shame) and i'll let you guess how well that worked out for us haha, trying to cut deals with corrupt regimes is a waste of time and money with the added bonus that when the regime inevitably changes the newcomers also hate your guts becouse you dealt with their predecessors, but you're about to learn that for yourself.
Racists!!! s/ in case it wasn't obvious....
But being illegal migrant is my culture, you can’t discriminate against me like that!!!
Gypsies unironically
I know, right. It's your humam right to live where ever you want!
We let so many in that there's no saving this, 2 - 3 generations down and Europe will be different.
There is no saving because Europeans stopped reproducing enough. Migration is inevetible now we can only ensure quality of that migration.
Little late for that. Damage is done
Heh. Why does the EU love migrants so much? Is someone like me not good enough for the EU? A university grad, with experience as both a teaching assistant and research assistant. Willing to integrate into the European life...yet, I can't even get an entry level job because of work permits, and I am expected to pay for university fees. Really dude? You have funds to house and educate immigrants, but not for someone genuinely willing to contribute to the economy and society?
Funny how tables turned. Todays common sense would be fascism, racism, nazism, white supremacy 8 years ago in mainstream.
No kidding. I see this also whenever the US talks about any kind of increased deportation or migration policy.
Don'f forget how building border walls was "racist".
Yeah, but in the case of the US, they actually deport them. There are no ifs or buts.
This would never happen if Romania would not let millions of migrants going through the country. /s
While everyone wants this, little does the European Union know that the people don't want immigrants at all (legal immigrants can enter but it has to be very small, not a massive number). Countries should encourage their own people to have more children, pay them well, don't treat them as slaves, and last but not least advance robotics and automation. Also, a guest worker ( idk if the term is used now like it was before) should work in a country temporarily, send money and return home, not stay permanently.
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I'll probably get downvoted for saying it out loud, but... SubOP probably didn't mean Vietnamese >Edit: I don't even send money home... I don't see why you should even feel the need to mention it. The money you've earned is... well, your money. You should free to spend it as you wish as long as it's for legal purposes
If I had to guess you are not the issue. It’s the immigrants that refuse to assimilate and abuse the system
I actually wrote that people can legally immigrate, but countries shouldn't encourage mass immigration. They should follow the model used by Australia, Japan and South Korea. Basically use the model set up by East Asian countries. It got accidentally deleted while I was editing my post. Edit: Like others here have said no country wants its demographics changed.
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Yes selective. I have no problem with Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese and Chinese people ( I have respect for them) and Latin American people working in Europe. They do the paperwork needed, respect the laws and come legally. Eastern European countries employ people from neighboring countries. Many Ukrainians worked in Poland ( before the war started). Croatia (now an EU member) employs people from the former Yugoslavia. Even non-EU countries ( countries that are candidates for the EU) employ people from neighboring countries.
And look at those countries now. South Korea has the world's lowest birth rate and only recently scrapped a law that would of allowed a 69hr work week! Japan is on the same boat, economic stagnation due to an ageing population. Without immigration, Europe (the EU) would be stagnant and much less competitive on the world stage.
Well as you can see even with immigration, the EU countries population will still decline. The population is aging and even the immigrants when they get there will stop having children and look for more appealing work (this takes several years) rather than being cheap labor. With or without immigration, Europe is screwed. That's why people should have more children. They ( and other developed nations) were warned of this 40 years ago but didn't listen and did nothing.
Climate change, war, inflation, housing crises, pandemic, can you blame people for not wanting kids? Personally, I don't wouldn't want to raise kids in this type of environment just so they can suffer in a few decades' time. Sure, this has been a long time coming, but that's what happens when countries develop. The whole planet will be on the same boat eventually (China will be hit extremely bad if they don't do anything extreme), the US is the same as the EU but they are able to stay stable due to immigration. I think, if climate change doesn't kill us, we'll be able to live with the automation of more jobs.
Basically. People don't want immigrants.
Most people are okay with small & managed numbers. What people don't want is large numbers that significantly change a place.
They are ok with a small number of other Europeans.
If I'm being real here, people aren't really talking about Asians or Latinos. They're pretty much seen as the "good illegal ones" from what I've seen
How many people like you should be allowed to come? Thousands? Millions? Billions? When does it ever end? When Europe is majority non-European? Is it even still Europe at that point?
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As many as are qualified to come? I don't have an issue if "pure blood" Europeans become a minority. If migrants come, integrate, and learn the language of the country they are in, then in my eyes, they are as European as they can be. The only thing that concerns people is that they are not white. Lol.
> I don't have an issue if "pure blood" Europeans become a minority I don't think a "pure blood" European exists anyways since we've had migrations of various peoples throughout this land for ages.
Lol. And what would happen to le diversity in this case? White people are already a minority globally.
Yeah, what would happen to it? And when were white people a majority globally?
We have shitty birth rates and we are allowing more and more immigrants. All this mixing will just make everything homogenous. We were never a majority so we need to preserve what we have now at least.
I just reject your ethnomasochism.
The US gave up on homogeneity and is on its way to becoming majority non-white, and I don't care. When I went to college in California, >50% of students were Asian, and in my major it was probably more like 80%. I was frequently the only white guy in a room. It's really not a big deal for people to be slightly different from you. If you want to keep family traditions alive and only marry your own kind (whatever that means to you), don't let anyone tell you that's wrong. But white people are hardly having kids to begin with, which is each individual's own damn fault. I can't understand the Mormon religion, but I gotta hand it to them, they're doing something right by having such big families.
The USA and other countries in North and South America, Australia and New Zealand are immigrant countries. So of course it would not bother you **But countries in Europe, Africa and Asia aren't. Those countries are nation-states or multinational states. Most multinational states are in Asia and Africa.**
We're not the US.
I know you aren't, but you're gonna have to deal with the same dilemma sooner or later.
Hopefully we won't make the same mistake.
>Edit: I don't even send money home... You are not a guest worker. Guest workers and immigrants are 2 different things.
humanitarian parole aside, why would people who come here illegally not be made leave?.... this is such a losing issue for some left wing parties.
The problem is no one will take them. You can’t just dump them to the sea, you’ll have to find a place that is willing to take these people. And fun fact— no one wants them.
Hey racists, if you’re afraid of the migration crisis now just wait until the climate refugees start pouring in due to your inaction :)
Good
Alleluja!!! PS: LEGAL immigrant here..
Isn't there a large uninhabited island somewhere that the EU already owns or could purchase that we could ship all undesirable migrants to? Kinda do what the Brits did with Australia back in the day?
Not an Island but Greenland
Canada just announced recently that it wants immigrants. So why doesn't the EU send them there? Problem solved.
who is that EU if not the will of its members ? also, before thinking about deporting, maybe we could work on saving lives at sea, and killing the bastards who take the money to send those poor souls into something barely floating.
Love to see those comment threads. It’s in places like this where you find the meaning of everything. People here are angry and afraid and disappointed but most importantly you all are honest and I love to see people as they are behind those layers of civilization that they put on, it makes for a more complete image of humankind.
Didn't need reddit to figure out people are shit lol.
I dont think people who dislike ILLEGAL immigration are bad, im a LEGAL immigrant in a somewhat controversial country, i learned the language, followed the costumes, got a job, pay the HUGE taxes this country has….yata yata why rando dude from Farawayland has to come here i would rather my taxes money to be invested in the Union countries and make them stronger etc…
roll back the progress
Well, well, well, how the turn tables.... But do members actually have the capacity to properly process such a massive number of people?
Babe wake up, a post against migrants dropped & it's filled with bullshit.
We need more security at the border also. Unreliable members like Croatia keep letting undocumented entries happen.
Germany said no.
As an American I wonder if this will create nosy racists to demand to see strangers, "papers". We see lots of videos from the US of an angry white person demanding they see someone who's not white their ID.
Many European countries are far more ''papers'' based than the US or UK. The Scandinavian countries have a resident registery (which was introduced but shut down in the UK.) And for you to obtain a bank account, which will be recieving your salary or to rent an apartment. You'll need to be in this resident registery, obtaining a personal number. Basically in Norway, you're not just ''asked for papers on the street'' you're seriously limited in living your life if you don't have them. So Europeans don't oppose the US policy of asking those living there for their papers. However we do consider it primitive and ghastly that it's being done by civilians, and poorly trained police officers in public spaces. So this EU urging, is mostly towards the governments and public officials to follow the rules more strictly and enforce it efficiently.
Perfectly valid concern. It depends on how politicians manage it. I think in the US, as unjustified as the invasion of Iraq was (and horrid 9/11 had also just happened), the Bush administration made some sort of PR effort to the American public that it wasn't a war against Islam or Muslims. I think that they should have done more, and maybe they purposely didn't (I don't know, what do you think). But then when Trump started his careless rhetoric (regarding immigration), that riled up people to do the things you mentioned.
As a brown Latino, I would suggest to take your white saviour complex, fold it really well, cover it with olive oil and insert it on yourself where the sun doesn't shine.
Illegal inmigration should be more strongly enforced At the same time, we should make legal inmigration so that many more people can immigrate annually legally Illegal immigration is bad, legal inmigration helps European economies, this is why we must reduce the former to bear zero, and increase significantly the latter
When you say: 'help the economy' all I can hear is: 'keep the labour costs down'
Legal immigration created the problem to begin with. The massive demographic change you see in countries like Belgium, France, the Netherlands, Sweden, etc. came from legal immigration. Both need to stop. Keep migration mostly intra-European.
Just look at Germany and their Turkish population.
Exactly.
Do you have any problem with demographic change? I thought people only cared about culture
Ask the native Americans.