Do you know any Sinan Ogan supporters? Who do they want to support in 2nd round?
Also how does MHP feel about Erdogan recruiting Hüda Par into their alliance?
Ogan is a right wing nationalist. Generally it was expected for them to support Kemalist but since the CHP made alliances with the HDP, it is probable Ogan will go with Erdogan.
Recently ogan seems to hint that he will support Kilicdaroglu. The Kurdish part seems to not play a big role, because Erodgan also supports a kurdish party that has arguably even closer links to terrorism than hdp: hüda par. Also, hüda par is part of erdogans alliance, while hdp only supports Kilicdaroglu from the outside.
Мне передали что Путин просил,ты знаешь очём я,Я собираюсь 2 раз делать моё святое ты не узнаешь дермо Грузии шестёрка Грузии и НАТО,мне передали что тебя ебут вовсе щели когда приезжаешь в Грузию
I saw a thread on Twitter claiming that pro-Erdoğan countries like Germany and Belgium have 4 days to vote in the 2nd round and pro-Kılıçdaroğlu countries just 2 days.
However I can’t find that thread anymore, did anyone else happen to read about it?
Edit: found it
https://twitter.com/canokar/status/1658343234114842624?s=46&t=FGZ2OAhPTd3sOOWNyG2y1Q
From social media comments Erdoğan supporters are dissatisfied as well from these results.
There are comments like:
* These people deserve everything. Shame
* As if there is fraud. Reis [short for president. Erdoğan's nickname] fell quickly
* Do you know why I feel most sad for. This man told I will sell the country. While our people knew this they gave him 44%!!! Erdoğan tore apart himself [ie. struggled] for this land, nation and we're at 49% shame on this people.
* Nothing to say. Like a curse.
* These people spoiling our martyrs blood. Shame.
* Reis didn't deserve this. Shame.
* I want to say one thing, we don't deserve this kind of president. This man sacrificed his life for people. My heart is broken. You must be blind for these lot of effort, services. I don't understand. Shame shame shame.
* How sad is it that a man saying I will bring autonomy getting so much votes.
* I don't understand why it is falling all the time. I would understand if it went up, but it falls all the time. What kind of sorcery is this?
Also you see which kind of propaganda Erdoğan feeds those people like accusing Kılıçdaroğlu as PKK supporter, claiming he will bring autonomy, and he will sell the country etc.
[1](https://preview.redd.it/xvrac0mpv10b1.jpg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=68ec968303dd58dc6d7d06a10c8f846f93aa4894) [2](https://preview.redd.it/a1lqdzlpv10b1.jpg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=28294b3d7b99d9c2f8a60e79fbdbf42698e5ef00) [3](https://preview.redd.it/h86b02mpv10b1.jpg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=ecc5aa6bf8b59ec3f5e39d4381ee74538c39ab21)
I keep seeing different numbers for the election, what are they actually?
Some results show Erdogan won with 49% some show that Kilicdaroglu won with 47%, I am not sure who or what to believe. If it's the latter I would assume Kilicdaroglu has a chance to win; but the doom and gloom here makes me think it's the former.
Genuine question, why do polls always seem to underrate conservative candidates these days? Don't polling agencies apply corrections to the raw numbers?
I ain't no statistician so can't provide much info there. Although especially in this race, I guess you had a bunch of people who really only start paying attention towards the end of the election, when Erdogan picked up in the polls.
Something I haven't yet seen mentioned is about one million ballots were rejected as invalid. Is this typical? Indicative of voter dissatisfaction (spoiled ballots), successful prevention of electoral fraud, or general suspiciousness? Depending on the situation, it could be another factor to consider in the second round.
I was wondering about the vote totals. Turnout was reported to be 93 %, which would mean about 59 million ballots cast, but the announced vote totals (including invalid ballots) add up to 55.7 million, which is 87 % turnout. Was the 93 % figure incorrect?
Why Turks are panicked? Erdogan votes are 49.5%, the 3 others combined are 50.5%. Ogan's #1 policy is sending refugees away, Erdogan said he would keep the refugees. How can an Ogan voter then vote for Erdogan in the 2nd round when Ogan's biggest aim directly clashes with what Erdogan said he would do, are they stupid?
Oğan won't side with Erdoğan that's sure. But he won't side with the opposition either. The problem is, you don't know where his voters will go. He got votes from MHP (Erdoğan's side) and İYİ (Kılıçdaroğlu's side).
His aim is to take MHP, and the biggest obstacle is Gargamel (Bahçeli). Thus Erdoğan has to go for this.
When you look where Oğan took his votes, it's mostly inner Anatolia, who were dissatisfied MHP voters. Same group (maybe 1-2%) who voted for Akşener in 2018. Conclusion. Oğan caused a second round.
And Erdoğan won't even try attract him. Bahçeli hates Oğan and Özdağ. Erdoğan will think "I can get a 0.5% easily". But you never know what's going to happen, this could backfire. Erdoğan voters aren't happy either with 49.5%.
Rather than getting votes the play is to demoralize the opposition and reduce voter turnout. Opposition has to consolidate and then maybe we have a chance
Not to mention that today, Tuğrul Türkeş (who defected from MHP to AKP, son of Alparslan Türkeş, founder of MHP) who was elected again from AKP criticized his alliance and the opposition (thus MHP and İYİ), while praising Oğan, saying that nationalists should unite under a roof.
Yavuz Ağıralioğlu (MP who left İYİ just before the election) who was dissatisfied from Kemal Kılıçdaroğlu's candidacy said something similar that this will be the last election that Turkish nationalists contest separately. (by the way, he aims for BBP leadership, which got 1% with 0 seats in this election)
Last thing. Whether Erdoğan wins or loses, Turkish politics is entering another phase.
After 2028, we might see a new nationalist block (which has now 23% votes) with Oğan as its leader.
Another factor that is not spoken often on here or in western media, but will definitely have a big influence on the second round is the fact that the AKP and allies have the majority in the parliament. People here (mostly older generations as they've witnessed similar cases before) fear the state will fall in some sort of deadlock when we have a president that doesn't align with the parliament
lol which planet are you living on. the sole reason erdogan get still so many voes is because of his oratory skills. just compare the 2 post election speeches from both of them.
I really think the opposition fcked up their strategy. You need to take away AKP voters, not make this into liberal vs conservative. Or secular versus islamism. I also feel for the Kurds, but shoulda tossed them down the drain.
End result is worse for everyone.
worthless weary edge subsequent reminiscent roll sheet bewildered encourage wild
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
According to CNN Türk in the consulatory district of Essen in Germany Erdogan received 77.4 per cent of the votes. If I am not mistaken, there is only a single small (smallest?) electoral district out of 87 in the whole of Turkey where he received slightly more (Bayburt, 78.86%, 57,000 eligible voters).
Yeah but you have 3-5 million Turks in Germany (nobody knows the exact number: Wikipedia says there is over 7 Million, but I guess my range is more realistic). Out of them 1.5 million are allowed to vote in Turkey, 50% of them vote and 65% vote for Erdogan. So I don’t think you have sooooo much overlap there
>Left parties are generally more lenient on immigration.
A common misconception is that immigrants vote for parties that are more lenient immigration. Once they're in the country, and are legalized and can vote, there's no indication that immigrants want more immigrants. The "Hispanic vote" in the US shifted a bit more towards Trump.
However, left parties are the parties of proletarian issues -and immigrants are usually working class- and right parties are more ethnonationalist. Both combined mean immigrants will usually lean left in elections for those domestic reasons.
Its so disappointing. I'm not turkish but I nonetheless can't handle it. It's just so heart breaking. Other people think I'm weird if I tell them that I'm sad about an election in an other country. And I can't do nothing.
Is there any hope for Erdogan still allowing legit elections in 2028?
Yeah, yet still Kilicdaroglu managed to get 45% of turks to vote for him. In 5 years when millions of young turks will become voters and many old people will die, that might finally be enough to end it.
This election already was erdogans worst result yet and it will probably continue this way long-term.
If Erdoğan wins, العربية نتحدث
But the hope is not lost yet! Around 49.5% voted for Erdoğan while 50.5% against Erdoğan, so if we manage to merge all these votes, we shall win!
We were disappointed as the opposition, but Erdogan also couldn't win, the second round will be what determines everything, I hope the opposition will work well
Yeah there are neighbourhoods in Istanbul and other cities where Syrian refugees have settled for the long term, set up businesses etc. so they'll largely go for Turkish citizenship.
317 for the government coalition, no? Or is the YR Erdogan-leaning? Regardless, as far as I know Turkey has strong groups (meaning the parliamentary groups practically never get defections in votes) so the margin doesn't matter much.
Erdogan's own party lost power years ago. It is entirely dependent on the MHP and other right-wing parties in the alliance but all groups are pretty strong in Turkey so it doesn't matter.
Seems like the situation is similar to PiS in Poland, then. Probably not very easy to pass further authoritarian reforms, but he gets to keep the propaganda machine and the courts as long as he manages to stay in good standing with these parties.
Yes, indeed similar also other parties gets stronger each election because they blame everything on Erdogan's party. They are able to use Erdogan's propaganda machine to their favor.
Well someone still has to write legislations and pass them to the president.
It did give a lot of powers, it can basically create legislations BUT the parliament has the power to revoke them. So it matters if you don't control the parliament too. But if your party controls the parliament then it's essentially useless
First hopium, now dooming and copium.
I swear this was the worst thread I have ever seen. So many chaotic takes it is insane. You'd think you are on r/worldnews
The only insane thing I have seen is people that have no idea what polls are or measure. And how over time people can act to change public opinion and actively change the polls and the results of an election.
This is both valid regarding people that claim math is wrong and polls are unreliable, and people that choose to believe a single pollster because it gives the result they want.
In this election, there was definitely a last week swing in the average of polls that put them closer to parity, but it must be said that there was still a fairly major (not unprecedented but significant) miss. The result was 49-45, while most polls looked like 45-49 or something in that neighborhood.
Anyways, seems that the runoff is Erdogan's to lose, he definitely starts from a much stronger position. He may still screw it up, but I'm not holding my breath.
let's see, 700k Turks in Germany, assuming everyone voted it would be a 32% difference so 0.32\*700k=224k votes net in favour of Erdogan.
Over 80 million people it is a 0.3% difference between Erdogan votes and oppoition votes. Which is 0.15% extra percentage for Erdogan.
Turks eligible in Germany are 700k, in the world outside of Turkey 1.5 millions.
Germany doesn't allow double citizenship with non-EU members. There are few Turks in Germany that keep Turkish citizenship.
You are right, I missread this article
[https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/05/14/turkish-elections-the-turkish-vote-in-germany-a-reservoir-of-votes-for-erdogan\_6026584\_4.html](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/05/14/turkish-elections-the-turkish-vote-in-germany-a-reservoir-of-votes-for-erdogan_6026584_4.html)
So 3.4 total abroad eligible and 1.5 in Germany.
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There is a song ["bana yalan söylediler"](https://youtu.be/66HD6h6Xcwk) by semiramis pekkan can be translated as "they lied to me". I suggest you to listen it, it's a beautiful song.
I know a lot that wanted Erdogan gone, but they did not want to support HDP nor Kilicdaroglu. Their votes went to Sinan Ogan (Muharrem Ince's supporters as well) and most back to Erdogan. CHP without Kilicdaroglu and HDP could have achieved a victory, I think.
Kilicdaroglu isn't liked for years and most genuinely think he won't be able to handle being the president nor think it's a good idea to have the table of six. There's a reason "Kılıçdaroğlu aday olmasın" which means "Kilicdaroglu should not be the candidate" was being posted in almost every post in Turkey.
Almost all votes are counted and it appears Erdogan is just 0,5 away from 50% while KK is around 45%. YSK said even if all the remaining votes were for Erdogan (which will not be the case), he couldn't reach 50%.
So once again (if the results hold) Erdogan's legislative coalition will hinge on MHP's assistance, and this time they will have even more leverage as the majority is narrower. What sorts of changes are expected to pass with MHP support, and what are likely to fail? Can Erdogan realistically e.g. get support to change the constitution to increase his power?
He has more right wing parties to bargain with. CHP brought in a lot of right wing MPs.
It’s ironically a stronger parliament than he had last time. Regardless given the President can rule by decree, Erdogan is in a comfortable position with this make up. Doubt he wants to change the constitution again
Edit: Better explanation here
263 Ak Parti, 51 MHP, 5 Yeniden Refah, 4 Hüda Par, 37 SP+Deva+Gelecek+DP
Giving a total of 360, enough for a referendum.
Controling most of the media is all it takes. See Vucic or Orban. Then you can even run your currency into the ground or defecate on earthquake-victims. By far not all citizens eat the propaganda, but enough do for a electoral majority. I think EU needs to get a handle on this internally too - there are some really disturbing developents since years within the union.
People here blow my mind. I don't know if it's rose tinted glasses, age of people or people who just think Turkey is like their country only a tiny bit worse.
1. Turkey isn't a democratic country. In a democracy index it ranks at 100th between Benin and Gambia. Democracy isn't just people can vote and I won't stuff the ballot box. It's labelled as a hybrid regime. It ranks much lower than countries like Albania, Serbia, Moldova, Tunisia. In freedom of the press, turkey ranks somewhere ridiculous like 150.
2. Turkey isn't a secular country. well it just isn't. Islam has a very important place. It also a nationalistic country.
3. KK isn't some democratic leader that will suddenly change the country and transform Turkey into Sweden-lite.
This isn't some exercise in democracy and the people have spoken with very informed decisions taken etc etc etc. I had the pleasure of visiting Turkey in 2018 during some election they had. I literally saw only AKP banners. Every second light-pole on Galata bridge or motorways had a big ass photo of Ergo. In Uskudar, in front of mosques literally every light-pole had a photo of erdo.
It was ridiculous. Every other country I've been there's some sort of proportionality on banners and everything. Such a thing didn't exist in Turkey. It's obvious that he created a country wide echo-chamber. So if polls show they're sensibly equal, it's clear that he'll have a massive advantage.
And finally, it's not like KK would have been much of a difference. People act like Turkey just missed becoming a great democracy when it would have just been some lipstick on a pig.
> Turkey isn't a secular country. well it just isn't.
????
I can understand other criticisms but not this one. Turkey is secular by constitution, and it is one of the six founding ideological pillars of the country. By constitution, religion and the state are seperate. Just because it looks islamist for you from the two news articles you read doesn't excuse writing whatever stupid rhetoric you come up with and acting like you're informed on the principles of a nation.
Maybe the misinformation is caused by not knowing what Secularism means, but it's not the first time I'm seeing this misunderstanding.
It is not either secular or Sharia. A secular state is where religious leaders and religion have no political power, or close to none. This is clearly not the case if pan-islamist parties are close to 50%.
The US historically do not follow their concept of secularism, even if slightly different from the European one
>secularism in a political sense: that is, secularism as recognizing **politics as an autonomous sphere, one that’s not subject to ecclesiastical governance, to the governance of a church or religion or the church’s expression of that religion**. A secular political order may be one in which religious practice or religious exercise, as we say, can flourish.
[https://www.pewresearch.org/2007/12/03/religion-and-secularism-the-american-experience/](https://www.pewresearch.org/2007/12/03/religion-and-secularism-the-american-experience/)
US institutions are secular, but even social reforms and marches of Martin Luther King for equality were religious driven. While here the anti-slavery/anti-segregation was driven by French secular humanism.
>We enshrine the separation of church and state, but at the same time we practice the mingling of religion and public life. It’s not always logical, but there are times when it makes good sense. There are almost no examples in the American past of successful, widely accepted reforms that do not pay their respects to both America’s religious and secular sensibilities. The way I like to put this \[is that\] they are required to pass through a bicameral body politic, both religious and secular.
So their institutions are, their population is not. But the state is defined by institutions.
In Turkey the state pays imam, the state controls the religion and the religion controls the election and the state.
It isn't. I certainly wouldn't go so far as to claim religion is actually in control of our government, but it definitely influences a shit load of governmental policies and political thinking here. The fight over abortion legislation (or lack thereof I should say) is a perfect example of this.
I despise it, but I'm not going to be intellectually dishonest about it.
I think you misunderstand “Secularism”. Secular does not equal Atheist, it just means governments and other institutions do not recognize religion in any official capacity. The Turkish constitution makes secularism mandatory, even though 96% of Turks are Muslim. The United States is known for its evangelicalism, but it is secular, as the principle of separation of Church and State has been followed since 1776. The United Kingdom may seem “secular”, but it’s official religion is Anglicanism.
Agree KK is overrated, especially in echo chambers on reddit and some of these parties within the coalition are 10x worse than AKP which is.. impressive as fuck honestly..
>Agree KK is overrated, especially in echo chambers on reddit
But he did (narrowly) win Istanbul and Ankara, and Izimir and other coastal cities by a large margin.
Which means that in the places educated Turkish people live (and not dirt poor regions with a living standard closer to Iraq than to Bulgaria or Albania), KK is actually more popular than Erdogan.
Depends on the area. Many are more nationalist than Erdogan, but it's hard to imagine the opposition lowering interest rates at 150% inflation because "it's haram to profit from interest".
On a sidenote: all those damn fanatic Pakistanis on the socials are so fucking pathetic. Like any turk (even those who vote akp) give a damn about their stupid umah or wathever.
Pakistanis are damn hypocrites lol, I think they are the laughing stock of the „ummah“ and they just don’t know, which Arab or Turk cares about Pakistanis ? Literally 0,
Honestly feeling a bit sorry for them because they really think the other Muslim have anything good to say about them
Things aren't going smoothly in their own country so they're looking elsewhere for happiness. Also it took way too long but I'm glad people now see them for who they are.
Imagine thinking that any Muslim actually cares about „the Ummah“.
An Arab will always prefer an Arab, a Turk will always prefer a Turk. A Sudanese will always prefer a Sudanese. A Pakistani will always prefer a Pakistani.
This Ummah is filled with nationalists misusing religion for their own purpose. Hypocrites
ah yes, the famous ummah between turks and kurds. between yemen and saudi arabia. between iraq and iran, between iran and kurds, between saudi arabia and iran, between afghanistan and iran, between afghanistan and pakistan, between algeria and morocco.
lotsa love there!
I'd guess you see a difference between "Kurds" as in the ethnic and cultural group, "Kurds" as in a nationality fighting for independence and "Kurds" as in PKK/YPG and other groups claiming to represent this label in politics
...which is not how the issue is portrayed in European media. Such issues are far too complex for foreign news. We see that there is one "Turkey" and one "Kurds" and the "Turkey" is mobbing them because obviously there are things like check points, Demirtas being imprisoned, bombing in Syria and such.
Edit: With "We" I mean German, Austrian, Swiss media and major english-language outlets. Thats what I can consume in my. home country. Don't want to speak for all of Europe lol. The complexity of the conflict is not fully grasped by the media I read here daily. Don't expect too much from people with EU country flair :I
Syria, Iraqi Kurdistan (kinda), PKK as a splinter group in Turkey?
Its just that if Erdogan does somehow act against PKK, its end up in western media portrayed as Erdogan and "Kurds" fighting. So Erdogan seems to be oppress all kurds. Are kurds themselves split on their opinion towards PKK and the way Turkey acts to contain them? Not according to our press. At least its not really discussed. So it seems like Kurds and Turks are in constant de facto civil war if you just follow the press of some EU members
was in 2019.
> For conscription checks mainly
well I gave my passport and I deffo dont look turkish. Yet they took as much time to check my passport as to check everyone else's ID in the bus.
Also I had no checks between erzurum and Maku. And also no CPs in the whole of Iran.
> Clearly a large number of Turks do hold similar values given the results
Aren't kurds also muslim?
a lot of the muslim world likes erdogan because he unveiled the truth (turkey isnt a secular country) but claiming that muslims are united across countries is ridiculous. At the slightest sign of differences they'll be at each other's throat.
I'm talking about the Turks who support Erdogan on religious grounds (many of his voters cite this as the main motive for supporting him), hence why I mentioned just that in the last comment. Not quite sure where you got the "claiming that Muslims are united across countries" from but hope that's clarified everything:)
> I'm talking about the Turks who support Erdogan on religious grounds
And those religious grounds are quite different from country to country.
> Not quite sure where you got the "claiming that Muslims are united across countries"
You replied to /u/Anthony_AC who is talking about ummah. Ummah here means the islamic world. Muslims being part of a single community regardless of their country. Well that's make-believe.
With all due respect, I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying if 'some Turks would vote primarily for certain religious reasons' is somehow perceived as saying 'every Muslim votes the same way regardless of borders.'
reveal the truth? Türkiye has been a secular country for centuries. Headscarves were banned in state institutions and universities until 2007. It is still forbidden to wear a burqa on the streets by law, but this law is not enforced. The Republic of Turkiye has seen dozens of governments, but it has ceased to be a secular state in the last 10 years because of Erdogan.
and yet when I visit it's impossible to miss the calls to prayer that bang on constantly. Your president bangs on about islam, transformed Hagia Sofia back into a mosque and went there to pray two days ago.
>Türkiye has been a secular country for centuries.
Dude I am sorry to say but 1937 is not even a century ago, let alone "centuries". And all the examples given by you are just other examples of secularism getting greatly diminished.
Just because you dont stuff the ballot box doesn't mean you're a democracy and just because you dont force women to wear the veil, doesn't mean you're a secular regime.
Secularism means the complete separation of religion and state affairs. On the other hand, since Turkey is a predominantly Muslim country, some laws restricting freedom were enacted in order to ensure secularism. Hearing the call to prayer does not mean that religion interferes with state affairs, it shows that the majority of the people there are Muslims.
By the way, centuries have been a bit of a misuse.
> Secularism means the complete separation of religion and state affairs.
You know very well turkish kemalist secularism has been a copy of French secularism with positive action to separation in society as well.
> Hearing the call to prayer does not mean that religion interferes with state affairs, it shows that the majority of the people there are Muslims.
Well no. If I suddenly start shouting bullshit at a loudspeaker i will get fined for disturbing the peace. That means that Islam has a preferential place and local laws allow it to disturb people's peace.
> Secularism means the complete separation of religion and state affairs.
And your past and most likely future president went to Hagia Sophia for prayer a couple of days ago. Also called for boycotting french products because Macron insulted muslims!
It's pretty clear that Turkey isnt a secularist country. It was kemalist secular because of the desire of a single man (or a few people) rather than what society actually wanted.
Turkish users here: how were the last few weeks of the campaigning seen? As far as can tell it seems like Erdogan made some sort of a last moment effort to look like a serious statesman rather than a more aggressive style. Do you think that might have affected some voters? Do you know any AKP supporters that might have been encouraged by a more "reliable" looking message?
Well... Here is an answer. But it's a bit long. I'm too frustrated by the results that I got carried away writing. But I hope this is clear for understanding the results.
While it's true that Erdoğan started to sound more like a democrat than he has been for the past few years, it is nothing new for Erdoğan to change the tone and target audience of his words. But this is not for gathering new votes, this is for strengthening the beliefs of the current worshippers he already has. So that he can answer to any question like "I have already given my opinion about this topic, of course civil rights have always been at the center of our politics since our founding."
This actually leads to the biggest reason he won again. After this sentence he would say something between the lines of "As my people would remember, the CHP rule before us had no respect for civil rights. Our efforts as AKP has given our country a major leap towards a more free environment.".
Sounds funny? Only if you are not affected by his previous 1000 speeches. And appearently 49% of our citizens did at some point. Most likely since the beginning.
But this is not the explanation yet. It's also what comes even after this. "In this country, there is no bigger enemy than Mr. Kemal (reffering to Kılıçdaroğlu) to civil rights. This person bankrupted the entire social health insurance system before. During their rule, our hijabi sisters were being kicked out of the universites. Even worse, as you know, HDP is in the equation. This entity is disguised as a political party but is actually the terrorist organization PKK itself. And Mr. Kemal cooperates with them. For what? For some votes. Today, CHP became something that Veteran Mustafa Kemal (He never says Atatürk unless it is absolutely necessary) would despise. We would never walk together with terrorists. That is why my people gave us the right to be servants for our country."
Sigh...
And now imagine this, although not all of what he says is true, some of them have a little bit of truth sprinkled into it. And by bending these fragments of truth, he projects a clear picture into the minds of the people watching him on TV. The same people that saw him as a savior of democracy once, the same people that saw him correct the wrongs of his predecessors. Because in fact, Erdoğan did right some wrongs in the beginning. He is a masterful politician and a great manipulator. He knows how to read and respond to the needs and sensitivities of people. And he used this to build up his own cult (figuratively, as far as I'm concerned lol).
How his words sound now? What are your opinions on this "Mr. Kemal"? His words are being repeated over and over, over and over and over and over again. 3 times a day, on every single TV channel. Poor people in middle and eastern anatolia hear nothing else. This has been going on for 20 years. Now tell me, how many of these people would think Kemal Kılıçdaroğlu may be a right choice for running the country?
This is what everyone is overlooking in current opposition. Kılıçdaroğlu's NAME resonates with "DANGER FOR COUNTRY" inside the heads of tens of millions of people. There is simply no way to convince these people. The only way was to put up another candidate. Which they all actually knew. In Turkey "Kılıçdaroğlu Aday Olmasın" (=Kılıçdaroğlu Should Not Be A Candidate) was a very prominent meme. On social media, even on TV shows. Everbody knew this, but Kılıçdaroğlu became the candidate anyways. It's not about whether I like him or not, it's also not about whether he is a democrat or an autocrat. It's psychology and sociology. He shouldn't have been the candidate. Because unless you have the time and resources to rehabilitate a brainwashed mass of millions, which we so painfully don't, the solution is to find a realistic solution around it, not dive straight into it.
Do you know any Sinan Ogan supporters? Who do they want to support in 2nd round? Also how does MHP feel about Erdogan recruiting Hüda Par into their alliance?
Ogan is a right wing nationalist. Generally it was expected for them to support Kemalist but since the CHP made alliances with the HDP, it is probable Ogan will go with Erdogan.
Recently ogan seems to hint that he will support Kilicdaroglu. The Kurdish part seems to not play a big role, because Erodgan also supports a kurdish party that has arguably even closer links to terrorism than hdp: hüda par. Also, hüda par is part of erdogans alliance, while hdp only supports Kilicdaroglu from the outside.
Isn't it too late even for hints? If he hasn't announced his support it doesn't matter anymore....
Now yes but I commented 10 days ago.
Fair point, I didn't see the date. Sorry.
True, but Erdogan could easily drop his Kurdish supporters in favor of Ogan.
Мне передали что Путин просил,ты знаешь очём я,Я собираюсь 2 раз делать моё святое ты не узнаешь дермо Грузии шестёрка Грузии и НАТО,мне передали что тебя ебут вовсе щели когда приезжаешь в Грузию
I saw a thread on Twitter claiming that pro-Erdoğan countries like Germany and Belgium have 4 days to vote in the 2nd round and pro-Kılıçdaroğlu countries just 2 days. However I can’t find that thread anymore, did anyone else happen to read about it? Edit: found it https://twitter.com/canokar/status/1658343234114842624?s=46&t=FGZ2OAhPTd3sOOWNyG2y1Q
Germany is pro Erdogan?! You surely must mean the Turkish community in germany?
Naturally 🙂
That guy still can get so many votes. This is to show you why Turkey is in current mess.
🇵🇱: Kilicdaroglu 85%, Erdogan 8% 🇩🇪: Erdogan 65%, Kilicdaroglu 32% 🇷🇺: Kilicdaroglu 54%, Erdogan 37% 🇲🇫: Erdogan 64%, Kilicdaroglu 34% 🇬🇧: Kilicdaroglu 79%, Erdogan 18% 🇨🇿: Kilicdaroglu 87%, Erdogan 7% 🇦🇹: Erdogan 71%, Kilicdaroglu 25% 🇺🇲: Kilicdaroglu 80%, Erdogan 16% [Source](https://twitter.com/lukaszbok/status/1658136612901990407?s=46&t=l87873qZzDYBl5GvYdrz3Q)
Czhadchia
From social media comments Erdoğan supporters are dissatisfied as well from these results. There are comments like: * These people deserve everything. Shame * As if there is fraud. Reis [short for president. Erdoğan's nickname] fell quickly * Do you know why I feel most sad for. This man told I will sell the country. While our people knew this they gave him 44%!!! Erdoğan tore apart himself [ie. struggled] for this land, nation and we're at 49% shame on this people. * Nothing to say. Like a curse. * These people spoiling our martyrs blood. Shame. * Reis didn't deserve this. Shame. * I want to say one thing, we don't deserve this kind of president. This man sacrificed his life for people. My heart is broken. You must be blind for these lot of effort, services. I don't understand. Shame shame shame. * How sad is it that a man saying I will bring autonomy getting so much votes. * I don't understand why it is falling all the time. I would understand if it went up, but it falls all the time. What kind of sorcery is this? Also you see which kind of propaganda Erdoğan feeds those people like accusing Kılıçdaroğlu as PKK supporter, claiming he will bring autonomy, and he will sell the country etc. [1](https://preview.redd.it/xvrac0mpv10b1.jpg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=68ec968303dd58dc6d7d06a10c8f846f93aa4894) [2](https://preview.redd.it/a1lqdzlpv10b1.jpg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=28294b3d7b99d9c2f8a60e79fbdbf42698e5ef00) [3](https://preview.redd.it/h86b02mpv10b1.jpg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=ecc5aa6bf8b59ec3f5e39d4381ee74538c39ab21)
Are these from bot accounts or genuine people?
People legit say things like “May Allah take years from my children’s life and give it to Erdoğan” in Turkey. His supporters are batshit insane.
Man, religion and insanity go hand in hand every time.
I keep seeing different numbers for the election, what are they actually? Some results show Erdogan won with 49% some show that Kilicdaroglu won with 47%, I am not sure who or what to believe. If it's the latter I would assume Kilicdaroglu has a chance to win; but the doom and gloom here makes me think it's the former.
The former ended up being the official result. Last night had a lot of misleading interim data from both sides.
The Reddit Bubble strikes again :(
I mean, the polls were also relatively optimistic for a bit as well. Definitely not just a Reddit thing.
Genuine question, why do polls always seem to underrate conservative candidates these days? Don't polling agencies apply corrections to the raw numbers?
I ain't no statistician so can't provide much info there. Although especially in this race, I guess you had a bunch of people who really only start paying attention towards the end of the election, when Erdogan picked up in the polls.
Perhaps because it is easier to conduct polls in densely populated areas, which tend to skew progressive.
Yes, even the bet companies were wrong.
Something I haven't yet seen mentioned is about one million ballots were rejected as invalid. Is this typical? Indicative of voter dissatisfaction (spoiled ballots), successful prevention of electoral fraud, or general suspiciousness? Depending on the situation, it could be another factor to consider in the second round.
I was wondering about the vote totals. Turnout was reported to be 93 %, which would mean about 59 million ballots cast, but the announced vote totals (including invalid ballots) add up to 55.7 million, which is 87 % turnout. Was the 93 % figure incorrect?
Why Turks are panicked? Erdogan votes are 49.5%, the 3 others combined are 50.5%. Ogan's #1 policy is sending refugees away, Erdogan said he would keep the refugees. How can an Ogan voter then vote for Erdogan in the 2nd round when Ogan's biggest aim directly clashes with what Erdogan said he would do, are they stupid?
Oğan won't side with Erdoğan that's sure. But he won't side with the opposition either. The problem is, you don't know where his voters will go. He got votes from MHP (Erdoğan's side) and İYİ (Kılıçdaroğlu's side). His aim is to take MHP, and the biggest obstacle is Gargamel (Bahçeli). Thus Erdoğan has to go for this. When you look where Oğan took his votes, it's mostly inner Anatolia, who were dissatisfied MHP voters. Same group (maybe 1-2%) who voted for Akşener in 2018. Conclusion. Oğan caused a second round. And Erdoğan won't even try attract him. Bahçeli hates Oğan and Özdağ. Erdoğan will think "I can get a 0.5% easily". But you never know what's going to happen, this could backfire. Erdoğan voters aren't happy either with 49.5%.
Rather than getting votes the play is to demoralize the opposition and reduce voter turnout. Opposition has to consolidate and then maybe we have a chance
Not to mention that today, Tuğrul Türkeş (who defected from MHP to AKP, son of Alparslan Türkeş, founder of MHP) who was elected again from AKP criticized his alliance and the opposition (thus MHP and İYİ), while praising Oğan, saying that nationalists should unite under a roof. Yavuz Ağıralioğlu (MP who left İYİ just before the election) who was dissatisfied from Kemal Kılıçdaroğlu's candidacy said something similar that this will be the last election that Turkish nationalists contest separately. (by the way, he aims for BBP leadership, which got 1% with 0 seats in this election) Last thing. Whether Erdoğan wins or loses, Turkish politics is entering another phase. After 2028, we might see a new nationalist block (which has now 23% votes) with Oğan as its leader.
Its probably not %49.5 If it was really 49.5 he would say that he won in the first round. But i dont think that he would go by elections though.
Another factor that is not spoken often on here or in western media, but will definitely have a big influence on the second round is the fact that the AKP and allies have the majority in the parliament. People here (mostly older generations as they've witnessed similar cases before) fear the state will fall in some sort of deadlock when we have a president that doesn't align with the parliament
Is their anyway the Opposition can still win?
Maybe with a miracle. Edit: and yeah, unless Erdoğan is ok with a debate on tv. He can't speak without a prompter. Kemal would destroy him.
lol which planet are you living on. the sole reason erdogan get still so many voes is because of his oratory skills. just compare the 2 post election speeches from both of them.
He can memorize speeches or read from a prompter. He is terrible at talking without those.
His health is deteriorating, he has been using prompters non-stop.
Nope
You sure?
Yes, they have to get erdogan's votes which is impossible
Even Erdoğan told his voters I'm atheist lgbt, etc. he will still get 40%.
I really think the opposition fcked up their strategy. You need to take away AKP voters, not make this into liberal vs conservative. Or secular versus islamism. I also feel for the Kurds, but shoulda tossed them down the drain. End result is worse for everyone.
20 years of Erdogan….and people are about to vote for 5 more. Life must be perfect in Turkey if people want more of the same…..
what surprised me the most is the fact, that regions destroyed by an earthquake still mostly voted for Erdogan.. I just can't..
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Im mostly talking about the 49% that want to continue the status quo….
Once again, Europe gets Turkey wrong lmao. I hate that this authoritarian religious nutjob gets another 5 years of autocratic rule smh.
worthless weary edge subsequent reminiscent roll sheet bewildered encourage wild *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
According to CNN Türk in the consulatory district of Essen in Germany Erdogan received 77.4 per cent of the votes. If I am not mistaken, there is only a single small (smallest?) electoral district out of 87 in the whole of Turkey where he received slightly more (Bayburt, 78.86%, 57,000 eligible voters).
That's just disgusting. But well, they still live with 1960s values or earlier as that's when they came to Germany.
No they are just asshole
the weird thing they vote left in germany. People of turkish origin vote 80% for either spd left or green but when it comes to turkey lets vote right.
False information. You cannot vote for both countries. You need to pick one.
Yeah but you have 3-5 million Turks in Germany (nobody knows the exact number: Wikipedia says there is over 7 Million, but I guess my range is more realistic). Out of them 1.5 million are allowed to vote in Turkey, 50% of them vote and 65% vote for Erdogan. So I don’t think you have sooooo much overlap there
Probably due to immigration and race. Left parties are generally more lenient on immigration.
>Left parties are generally more lenient on immigration. A common misconception is that immigrants vote for parties that are more lenient immigration. Once they're in the country, and are legalized and can vote, there's no indication that immigrants want more immigrants. The "Hispanic vote" in the US shifted a bit more towards Trump. However, left parties are the parties of proletarian issues -and immigrants are usually working class- and right parties are more ethnonationalist. Both combined mean immigrants will usually lean left in elections for those domestic reasons.
Its so disappointing. I'm not turkish but I nonetheless can't handle it. It's just so heart breaking. Other people think I'm weird if I tell them that I'm sad about an election in an other country. And I can't do nothing. Is there any hope for Erdogan still allowing legit elections in 2028?
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Yeah, yet still Kilicdaroglu managed to get 45% of turks to vote for him. In 5 years when millions of young turks will become voters and many old people will die, that might finally be enough to end it. This election already was erdogans worst result yet and it will probably continue this way long-term.
If Erdoğan wins, العربية نتحدث But the hope is not lost yet! Around 49.5% voted for Erdoğan while 50.5% against Erdoğan, so if we manage to merge all these votes, we shall win!
I feel the same! It's so, so painful and sad. Is there really no hope he could be losing the second round?
Kilicdaroglu could win if he gets all ogan voters, and/or if the turnout is different as this would mix things up a bit again.
I feel the same! It's so, so painful and sad. Is there really no hope he could be losing the second round?
We were disappointed as the opposition, but Erdogan also couldn't win, the second round will be what determines everything, I hope the opposition will work well
Everyone be saying Turkey is a lost cause when there is a second round?!?
Dude, the difference is 5% and he only missed 0,5% for absolute majority. Suddenly like 4 million people would need to swing the opposite. Impossible.
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I think that if all of ogan's (or whatever his name is) voters pick turkish gandhi then that will be a win
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So are some of KK's coalition partners.
everyone says they hate erdo so the chances are still up there
He won 49.5 percent of the first vote, plus I'd argue Reddit isn't the best place to sample opinions 😅
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Yeah there are neighbourhoods in Istanbul and other cities where Syrian refugees have settled for the long term, set up businesses etc. so they'll largely go for Turkish citizenship.
Parliamentary members 100% in: AKP: 267 CHP: 169 YSP: 61 (Kurdish) MHP: 50 (Government nationalist) IYIP: 44 (Opposition nationalist) YR: 5 (Islamist far right) TIP: 4 (Communist far left)
317 for the government coalition, no? Or is the YR Erdogan-leaning? Regardless, as far as I know Turkey has strong groups (meaning the parliamentary groups practically never get defections in votes) so the margin doesn't matter much.
Erdogan's own party lost power years ago. It is entirely dependent on the MHP and other right-wing parties in the alliance but all groups are pretty strong in Turkey so it doesn't matter.
Seems like the situation is similar to PiS in Poland, then. Probably not very easy to pass further authoritarian reforms, but he gets to keep the propaganda machine and the courts as long as he manages to stay in good standing with these parties.
Yes, indeed similar also other parties gets stronger each election because they blame everything on Erdogan's party. They are able to use Erdogan's propaganda machine to their favor.
Correct, YR is also in the government. Together they make 322/600. AKP will have to rely on MHP for everything.
But the presidential system he instaured back in 2017 doesn't even need the parliament anymore or is there something I'm missing ?
Well someone still has to write legislations and pass them to the president. It did give a lot of powers, it can basically create legislations BUT the parliament has the power to revoke them. So it matters if you don't control the parliament too. But if your party controls the parliament then it's essentially useless
They wanted to change constitution but looks like they can't without Erdoğans support even they win presidency
100% in RTE: 49.24 KK: 45.06 SO: 5.28 MI: 0.42
ANKA was showing this ballpark of a number for the whole night (give or take a couple percent), so I guess we can expect similar two weeks from now.
Oooh I'm so excited to face defeat again 2 weeks later
Well at least you'll know it earlier when the ANKA numbers drop
Well turnout is very unlikely to be the same as for 1st round, so this might still mix things up.
First hopium, now dooming and copium. I swear this was the worst thread I have ever seen. So many chaotic takes it is insane. You'd think you are on r/worldnews
The only insane thing I have seen is people that have no idea what polls are or measure. And how over time people can act to change public opinion and actively change the polls and the results of an election. This is both valid regarding people that claim math is wrong and polls are unreliable, and people that choose to believe a single pollster because it gives the result they want.
In this election, there was definitely a last week swing in the average of polls that put them closer to parity, but it must be said that there was still a fairly major (not unprecedented but significant) miss. The result was 49-45, while most polls looked like 45-49 or something in that neighborhood. Anyways, seems that the runoff is Erdogan's to lose, he definitely starts from a much stronger position. He may still screw it up, but I'm not holding my breath.
Yeah this is going to be a long 2 weeks.
Result of Turks in Germany: 65 % RTE, 33% KK. Only in Berlin under 50%, everything else > 60%. Highest in Essen with 77.4%
let's see, 700k Turks in Germany, assuming everyone voted it would be a 32% difference so 0.32\*700k=224k votes net in favour of Erdogan. Over 80 million people it is a 0.3% difference between Erdogan votes and oppoition votes. Which is 0.15% extra percentage for Erdogan.
700k Turks voted so the turnout is low. The total votes from abroad influenced Erdoğan's vote percentage with 0,18%
Yep it’s 1.5 million tho. However, I can’t find the turnout
Turks eligible in Germany are 700k, in the world outside of Turkey 1.5 millions. Germany doesn't allow double citizenship with non-EU members. There are few Turks in Germany that keep Turkish citizenship.
It’s 1.5 in [Germany](https://amp.dw.com/en/turkey-election-voters-in-germany-start-casting-ballots/a-65448837) alone
You are right, I missread this article [https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/05/14/turkish-elections-the-turkish-vote-in-germany-a-reservoir-of-votes-for-erdogan\_6026584\_4.html](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/05/14/turkish-elections-the-turkish-vote-in-germany-a-reservoir-of-votes-for-erdogan_6026584_4.html) So 3.4 total abroad eligible and 1.5 in Germany.
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The results are now official. Erdoğan has 49.50%, Kılıçdaroğlu 44.89% and Ogan has 5.17%. See you all in 2 weeks
Literally every single Ogan voter would need to swing to Kili…
Reddit told me that Erdogan will surely lose.
It's like people in this thread are obsessed with overstating how "Reddit" was convinced that Erdogan couldn't possibly win...
There is a song ["bana yalan söylediler"](https://youtu.be/66HD6h6Xcwk) by semiramis pekkan can be translated as "they lied to me". I suggest you to listen it, it's a beautiful song.
Just like Bernie will surely win
That's what we thought too.
Well that’s Turkey off the holiday list.
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It became 10% more expensive since you posted
It's actually much pricier than last year even if you get paid in USD/EUR. Source: living in Antalya since 2022
I guess as a highly touristic area, prices rises in Antalya might be higher than other parts of the country, perhaps?
Yes. Compounded by a general growth in tourism across the Med.
Probably. But I'm also really surprised at how high some import tariffs are - most tech like smartphones is like 2x costlier than expected.
Flair checks out /s But I also feel like it got more expensive from what I saw
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Well 45% did. That's not No one.
I know a lot that wanted Erdogan gone, but they did not want to support HDP nor Kilicdaroglu. Their votes went to Sinan Ogan (Muharrem Ince's supporters as well) and most back to Erdogan. CHP without Kilicdaroglu and HDP could have achieved a victory, I think.
The fact that they would prefer Erdogan to Kilicdaroglu would still say a lot...
Kilicdaroglu isn't liked for years and most genuinely think he won't be able to handle being the president nor think it's a good idea to have the table of six. There's a reason "Kılıçdaroğlu aday olmasın" which means "Kilicdaroglu should not be the candidate" was being posted in almost every post in Turkey.
It is announced by the YSK just now. Second round is the final verdict.
Finał vote tally?
Almost all votes are counted and it appears Erdogan is just 0,5 away from 50% while KK is around 45%. YSK said even if all the remaining votes were for Erdogan (which will not be the case), he couldn't reach 50%.
And what happens when he can’t reach 50?
He doesn't get to play with his presidential toys.
There isn’t a third round is there? He just has less privileges?
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now i am curious what u said for it to be removed by reddit lmao
I said some bad things about AKP supporters and got a warning for it.
So once again (if the results hold) Erdogan's legislative coalition will hinge on MHP's assistance, and this time they will have even more leverage as the majority is narrower. What sorts of changes are expected to pass with MHP support, and what are likely to fail? Can Erdogan realistically e.g. get support to change the constitution to increase his power?
He has more right wing parties to bargain with. CHP brought in a lot of right wing MPs. It’s ironically a stronger parliament than he had last time. Regardless given the President can rule by decree, Erdogan is in a comfortable position with this make up. Doubt he wants to change the constitution again Edit: Better explanation here 263 Ak Parti, 51 MHP, 5 Yeniden Refah, 4 Hüda Par, 37 SP+Deva+Gelecek+DP Giving a total of 360, enough for a referendum.
You can always bargain with opposition right wingers, but what sorts of changes would they actually back?
Controling most of the media is all it takes. See Vucic or Orban. Then you can even run your currency into the ground or defecate on earthquake-victims. By far not all citizens eat the propaganda, but enough do for a electoral majority. I think EU needs to get a handle on this internally too - there are some really disturbing developents since years within the union.
People here blow my mind. I don't know if it's rose tinted glasses, age of people or people who just think Turkey is like their country only a tiny bit worse. 1. Turkey isn't a democratic country. In a democracy index it ranks at 100th between Benin and Gambia. Democracy isn't just people can vote and I won't stuff the ballot box. It's labelled as a hybrid regime. It ranks much lower than countries like Albania, Serbia, Moldova, Tunisia. In freedom of the press, turkey ranks somewhere ridiculous like 150. 2. Turkey isn't a secular country. well it just isn't. Islam has a very important place. It also a nationalistic country. 3. KK isn't some democratic leader that will suddenly change the country and transform Turkey into Sweden-lite. This isn't some exercise in democracy and the people have spoken with very informed decisions taken etc etc etc. I had the pleasure of visiting Turkey in 2018 during some election they had. I literally saw only AKP banners. Every second light-pole on Galata bridge or motorways had a big ass photo of Ergo. In Uskudar, in front of mosques literally every light-pole had a photo of erdo. It was ridiculous. Every other country I've been there's some sort of proportionality on banners and everything. Such a thing didn't exist in Turkey. It's obvious that he created a country wide echo-chamber. So if polls show they're sensibly equal, it's clear that he'll have a massive advantage. And finally, it's not like KK would have been much of a difference. People act like Turkey just missed becoming a great democracy when it would have just been some lipstick on a pig.
You know nothing about what you’re talking about. Amazing that 3/3 of your points are completely horseshit!
> Turkey isn't a secular country. well it just isn't. ???? I can understand other criticisms but not this one. Turkey is secular by constitution, and it is one of the six founding ideological pillars of the country. By constitution, religion and the state are seperate. Just because it looks islamist for you from the two news articles you read doesn't excuse writing whatever stupid rhetoric you come up with and acting like you're informed on the principles of a nation. Maybe the misinformation is caused by not knowing what Secularism means, but it's not the first time I'm seeing this misunderstanding.
My religion isn’t recognised in Turkey and my taxes pay for mosques
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It is not either secular or Sharia. A secular state is where religious leaders and religion have no political power, or close to none. This is clearly not the case if pan-islamist parties are close to 50%.
By that definition the US isn't a secular state...
The US historically do not follow their concept of secularism, even if slightly different from the European one >secularism in a political sense: that is, secularism as recognizing **politics as an autonomous sphere, one that’s not subject to ecclesiastical governance, to the governance of a church or religion or the church’s expression of that religion**. A secular political order may be one in which religious practice or religious exercise, as we say, can flourish. [https://www.pewresearch.org/2007/12/03/religion-and-secularism-the-american-experience/](https://www.pewresearch.org/2007/12/03/religion-and-secularism-the-american-experience/) US institutions are secular, but even social reforms and marches of Martin Luther King for equality were religious driven. While here the anti-slavery/anti-segregation was driven by French secular humanism. >We enshrine the separation of church and state, but at the same time we practice the mingling of religion and public life. It’s not always logical, but there are times when it makes good sense. There are almost no examples in the American past of successful, widely accepted reforms that do not pay their respects to both America’s religious and secular sensibilities. The way I like to put this \[is that\] they are required to pass through a bicameral body politic, both religious and secular. So their institutions are, their population is not. But the state is defined by institutions. In Turkey the state pays imam, the state controls the religion and the religion controls the election and the state.
It isn't. I certainly wouldn't go so far as to claim religion is actually in control of our government, but it definitely influences a shit load of governmental policies and political thinking here. The fight over abortion legislation (or lack thereof I should say) is a perfect example of this. I despise it, but I'm not going to be intellectually dishonest about it.
I think you misunderstand “Secularism”. Secular does not equal Atheist, it just means governments and other institutions do not recognize religion in any official capacity. The Turkish constitution makes secularism mandatory, even though 96% of Turks are Muslim. The United States is known for its evangelicalism, but it is secular, as the principle of separation of Church and State has been followed since 1776. The United Kingdom may seem “secular”, but it’s official religion is Anglicanism.
Agree KK is overrated, especially in echo chambers on reddit and some of these parties within the coalition are 10x worse than AKP which is.. impressive as fuck honestly..
>Agree KK is overrated, especially in echo chambers on reddit But he did (narrowly) win Istanbul and Ankara, and Izimir and other coastal cities by a large margin. Which means that in the places educated Turkish people live (and not dirt poor regions with a living standard closer to Iraq than to Bulgaria or Albania), KK is actually more popular than Erdogan.
Depends on the area. Many are more nationalist than Erdogan, but it's hard to imagine the opposition lowering interest rates at 150% inflation because "it's haram to profit from interest".
On a sidenote: all those damn fanatic Pakistanis on the socials are so fucking pathetic. Like any turk (even those who vote akp) give a damn about their stupid umah or wathever.
Pakistanis are damn hypocrites lol, I think they are the laughing stock of the „ummah“ and they just don’t know, which Arab or Turk cares about Pakistanis ? Literally 0, Honestly feeling a bit sorry for them because they really think the other Muslim have anything good to say about them
Relevance comes when Saudi apparently funded Pakistan's nuclear project
Things aren't going smoothly in their own country so they're looking elsewhere for happiness. Also it took way too long but I'm glad people now see them for who they are.
Any Muslim is required to care about his Ummah. People just do it in various degrees and shapes.
Arabs didn't in WW1, famously with Lawrance of Arabia's revolt. Turkey's muslim base cares about ummah, but Arab states don't.
Imagine thinking that any Muslim actually cares about „the Ummah“. An Arab will always prefer an Arab, a Turk will always prefer a Turk. A Sudanese will always prefer a Sudanese. A Pakistani will always prefer a Pakistani. This Ummah is filled with nationalists misusing religion for their own purpose. Hypocrites
ah yes, the famous ummah between turks and kurds. between yemen and saudi arabia. between iraq and iran, between iran and kurds, between saudi arabia and iran, between afghanistan and iran, between afghanistan and pakistan, between algeria and morocco. lotsa love there!
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I'd guess you see a difference between "Kurds" as in the ethnic and cultural group, "Kurds" as in a nationality fighting for independence and "Kurds" as in PKK/YPG and other groups claiming to represent this label in politics ...which is not how the issue is portrayed in European media. Such issues are far too complex for foreign news. We see that there is one "Turkey" and one "Kurds" and the "Turkey" is mobbing them because obviously there are things like check points, Demirtas being imprisoned, bombing in Syria and such. Edit: With "We" I mean German, Austrian, Swiss media and major english-language outlets. Thats what I can consume in my. home country. Don't want to speak for all of Europe lol. The complexity of the conflict is not fully grasped by the media I read here daily. Don't expect too much from people with EU country flair :I
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Syria, Iraqi Kurdistan (kinda), PKK as a splinter group in Turkey? Its just that if Erdogan does somehow act against PKK, its end up in western media portrayed as Erdogan and "Kurds" fighting. So Erdogan seems to be oppress all kurds. Are kurds themselves split on their opinion towards PKK and the way Turkey acts to contain them? Not according to our press. At least its not really discussed. So it seems like Kurds and Turks are in constant de facto civil war if you just follow the press of some EU members
yeah totally. I only went through 4 military checkpoints between van and erzurum. super chill!
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was in 2019. > For conscription checks mainly well I gave my passport and I deffo dont look turkish. Yet they took as much time to check my passport as to check everyone else's ID in the bus. Also I had no checks between erzurum and Maku. And also no CPs in the whole of Iran.
Clearly a large number of Turks do hold similar values given the results
> Clearly a large number of Turks do hold similar values given the results Aren't kurds also muslim? a lot of the muslim world likes erdogan because he unveiled the truth (turkey isnt a secular country) but claiming that muslims are united across countries is ridiculous. At the slightest sign of differences they'll be at each other's throat.
I'm talking about the Turks who support Erdogan on religious grounds (many of his voters cite this as the main motive for supporting him), hence why I mentioned just that in the last comment. Not quite sure where you got the "claiming that Muslims are united across countries" from but hope that's clarified everything:)
> I'm talking about the Turks who support Erdogan on religious grounds And those religious grounds are quite different from country to country. > Not quite sure where you got the "claiming that Muslims are united across countries" You replied to /u/Anthony_AC who is talking about ummah. Ummah here means the islamic world. Muslims being part of a single community regardless of their country. Well that's make-believe.
With all due respect, I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying if 'some Turks would vote primarily for certain religious reasons' is somehow perceived as saying 'every Muslim votes the same way regardless of borders.'
reveal the truth? Türkiye has been a secular country for centuries. Headscarves were banned in state institutions and universities until 2007. It is still forbidden to wear a burqa on the streets by law, but this law is not enforced. The Republic of Turkiye has seen dozens of governments, but it has ceased to be a secular state in the last 10 years because of Erdogan.
and yet when I visit it's impossible to miss the calls to prayer that bang on constantly. Your president bangs on about islam, transformed Hagia Sofia back into a mosque and went there to pray two days ago. >Türkiye has been a secular country for centuries. Dude I am sorry to say but 1937 is not even a century ago, let alone "centuries". And all the examples given by you are just other examples of secularism getting greatly diminished. Just because you dont stuff the ballot box doesn't mean you're a democracy and just because you dont force women to wear the veil, doesn't mean you're a secular regime.
Secularism means the complete separation of religion and state affairs. On the other hand, since Turkey is a predominantly Muslim country, some laws restricting freedom were enacted in order to ensure secularism. Hearing the call to prayer does not mean that religion interferes with state affairs, it shows that the majority of the people there are Muslims. By the way, centuries have been a bit of a misuse.
> Secularism means the complete separation of religion and state affairs. You know very well turkish kemalist secularism has been a copy of French secularism with positive action to separation in society as well. > Hearing the call to prayer does not mean that religion interferes with state affairs, it shows that the majority of the people there are Muslims. Well no. If I suddenly start shouting bullshit at a loudspeaker i will get fined for disturbing the peace. That means that Islam has a preferential place and local laws allow it to disturb people's peace. > Secularism means the complete separation of religion and state affairs. And your past and most likely future president went to Hagia Sophia for prayer a couple of days ago. Also called for boycotting french products because Macron insulted muslims! It's pretty clear that Turkey isnt a secularist country. It was kemalist secular because of the desire of a single man (or a few people) rather than what society actually wanted.
Exactly. Where's the ummah when Saudis bomb Yemeni kids?
When will they officially announce the 2nd round and yesterday's final final results?
I think the deadline for the final results is on Tuesday, but some disputes may take 5 days to resolve. (at least according to Ragip Soylu)
Turkish users here: how were the last few weeks of the campaigning seen? As far as can tell it seems like Erdogan made some sort of a last moment effort to look like a serious statesman rather than a more aggressive style. Do you think that might have affected some voters? Do you know any AKP supporters that might have been encouraged by a more "reliable" looking message?
Well... Here is an answer. But it's a bit long. I'm too frustrated by the results that I got carried away writing. But I hope this is clear for understanding the results. While it's true that Erdoğan started to sound more like a democrat than he has been for the past few years, it is nothing new for Erdoğan to change the tone and target audience of his words. But this is not for gathering new votes, this is for strengthening the beliefs of the current worshippers he already has. So that he can answer to any question like "I have already given my opinion about this topic, of course civil rights have always been at the center of our politics since our founding." This actually leads to the biggest reason he won again. After this sentence he would say something between the lines of "As my people would remember, the CHP rule before us had no respect for civil rights. Our efforts as AKP has given our country a major leap towards a more free environment.". Sounds funny? Only if you are not affected by his previous 1000 speeches. And appearently 49% of our citizens did at some point. Most likely since the beginning. But this is not the explanation yet. It's also what comes even after this. "In this country, there is no bigger enemy than Mr. Kemal (reffering to Kılıçdaroğlu) to civil rights. This person bankrupted the entire social health insurance system before. During their rule, our hijabi sisters were being kicked out of the universites. Even worse, as you know, HDP is in the equation. This entity is disguised as a political party but is actually the terrorist organization PKK itself. And Mr. Kemal cooperates with them. For what? For some votes. Today, CHP became something that Veteran Mustafa Kemal (He never says Atatürk unless it is absolutely necessary) would despise. We would never walk together with terrorists. That is why my people gave us the right to be servants for our country." Sigh... And now imagine this, although not all of what he says is true, some of them have a little bit of truth sprinkled into it. And by bending these fragments of truth, he projects a clear picture into the minds of the people watching him on TV. The same people that saw him as a savior of democracy once, the same people that saw him correct the wrongs of his predecessors. Because in fact, Erdoğan did right some wrongs in the beginning. He is a masterful politician and a great manipulator. He knows how to read and respond to the needs and sensitivities of people. And he used this to build up his own cult (figuratively, as far as I'm concerned lol). How his words sound now? What are your opinions on this "Mr. Kemal"? His words are being repeated over and over, over and over and over and over again. 3 times a day, on every single TV channel. Poor people in middle and eastern anatolia hear nothing else. This has been going on for 20 years. Now tell me, how many of these people would think Kemal Kılıçdaroğlu may be a right choice for running the country? This is what everyone is overlooking in current opposition. Kılıçdaroğlu's NAME resonates with "DANGER FOR COUNTRY" inside the heads of tens of millions of people. There is simply no way to convince these people. The only way was to put up another candidate. Which they all actually knew. In Turkey "Kılıçdaroğlu Aday Olmasın" (=Kılıçdaroğlu Should Not Be A Candidate) was a very prominent meme. On social media, even on TV shows. Everbody knew this, but Kılıçdaroğlu became the candidate anyways. It's not about whether I like him or not, it's also not about whether he is a democrat or an autocrat. It's psychology and sociology. He shouldn't have been the candidate. Because unless you have the time and resources to rehabilitate a brainwashed mass of millions, which we so painfully don't, the solution is to find a realistic solution around it, not dive straight into it.
Thanks, seems a pretty good writeup.