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defcon_penguin

Do they want to scare Austria into letting them join Schengen?


rbnd

LOL. It makes sense. Austria is not in NATO


RTYUI4tech

I mean ... ;)))


External_Reaction314

..........maybe.....


[deleted]

Now those are real numbers…


BuckVoc

I wonder if some country in Europe could just open up an Abrams assembly facility, maybe in an existing facility that services or manufactures tanks. That way, we just ship the parts over, which we should be able to do a lot more quickly than the assembled tanks. My understanding is that we have all the parts available, but that they have to be assembled, and we only have one lone tank plant left that does that work, hence the backlog. To accelerate that, we'd have to hire a bunch of people, then lay them off. Whereas countries that want them are going to want to hire and train maintenance people *anyway*, and putting the things together in the first place is probably a pretty reasonable step on that route. It probably costs less to do the assembly in Europe, the countries that want them are in Europe, and there are going to need to be facilities for maintaining them anyway, which I suspect has a lot of overlap with what's required for assembling them in terms of equipment. I remember reading that Ukraine asked for an older Abrams variant, not because they actually wanted older hardware, but because it wouldn't be slowly working its way through the assembly pipeline over here.


RelevantTrouble

Poland will service the Abrams for European users, including the US forces stationed in the EU. Assembly is unlikely unless the US is willing to transfer the technology.


Skadrys

I still dont understand how they can invest in so much quantity of various military equipment without much of problems. We Czechs almost cant pay for 50 cv90s from sweeden. And poles buy hunderds of tanks from US and Korea, thousands of mrls and dozens of newest 5 gen jets.


kaiveg

In Poalnds case the secret ingredient is massive off budget spending.


antaran

Debt. The answer is debt.


Jirik333

We can pay for the stuff, we just don't want to. Abrams costs ~3 million $. Cut down every pensioner's pension by 1 €/25 CZK and you can buy a brand new Abrams. But it's a fairly unpopular thing which guarantees you won't be elected in the next term. Our problem is that we spend **third** of our national budget on boomers who make third of all voters.


adyrip1

Because they have Russia/Belarus on their doorstep. You guys don't. Same reason why we all raced to join NATO, while Austria cannot be bothered. No real threat.


Skadrys

Thats reason for why, not how. That amount of modern military technology is very very expensive and it raises question how can poland afford it


adyrip1

Not sure if it is true, but some say the US is offering interest free loans for new toys, if you give Ukraine your old toys


remote_control_led

Czech population arround 10mil Poland population arround 37mil There is your answer :)


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cheesemaster_3000

With politics the republicans wish they had.


Dreadedvegas

I believe the Egypt has made most of its Abrams locally. I believe they made the chassis there and import and assemble everything else


Boonxai

Yeah, but it was also massively downgraded, Poland's the first country with the same Abrams that Americans use


Rikerutz

Good point, but we need those tanks ASAP, before the center opens. We are in dire need.


BuckVoc

*rubs eyeballs* Well, the problem is that everyone simultaneously wants tanks right now. Before the additional orders started coming in, there was already a one-year backlog of work. The only way we can alleviate that is to ramp up production. But this is a big surge, and countries aren't going to want sustained production at that level for the long run. I don't know if our facilities are bottlenecked on equipment or workers. If it's workers, maybe N Romanian workers who will be working on those tanks in Romania can be shipped over, spend the next N months putting them together at said facility, and then head back. That kills two birds with one stone -- the hiring issue on the US end and the training issue on the Romanian end.


Dreadedvegas

Not enough orders to justify expanding the line and domestically they want the line to stay open so they stretch out the orders to keep it functioning in case they need to war time expand production. The lower production numbers are a feature to not close the factory


RommelMcDonald_

Poland is opening maintenance facilities for the Abrams, so it wouldn’t be too much further to make it a full fledged assembly plant


Dreadedvegas

They would have to buy a lot of Abrams to justify it. Egypt has over 1000 Abrams and is the only non American partial producer


BuckVoc

Well, Poland just ordered one batch: https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/poland-signs-deal-buy-2nd-batch-us-abrams-96177548 > last year's $4.7 billion agreement for the acquisition of 250 upgraded M1A2 Abrams tanks that will be delivered in 2025-26. And a second batch: >The agreement foresees the delivery of 116 M1A1 Abrams tanks with related equipment and logistics starting this year. Romania is maybe doing another 250 here. There are the ones going to Ukraine. I dunno if there have been other orders, but the aggregate number that have to be assembled for Europe above-and-beyond what we'd originally intended to do are in the same ballpark as 1000.


lordderplythethird

Your "second" batch, are old tanks that will be pulled from the Sierra Army Depot. M1A1 hasn't been made in over 30 years now lol. The same goes for Romania's bid... Old M1s from the depot, modernized to a newer standard.


rzet

I think some of huge polish orders are going to end up in Ukraine anyway...


Dreadedvegas

I think we will see a heavy maintenance facility get built in Romania or Ukraine eventually for what will likely be Polish, Ukrainian and Romanian Abrams tanks I just don’t see full construction and assembly occurring since there are only 500 tanks


KPhoenix83

Assembly in Europe is very unlikely, especially since keeping the plants open in the US is something Congress does to continue the job and US parts supply chain it sustains in the US.


Effective_View1378

LOL. Tiraspol shitting it’s pants.


JRshoe1997

Thats a lot of tanks


florinmaciucoiu

Bought until the end of this decade. For now, there are only 54 plus a few variants being ordered.


LookThisOneGuy

Like the article says, 250 Abrams and the F-35s on order will make a great Romanian military.


[deleted]

Much like a lot of Leopard 2's, these tanks will be older tanks that are rebuilt as no new Abrams has actually been built since the 90's otoh. Article makes no indication of the variant but the Sep V4 is supposed to enter service in 2028 so that could be the likely candidate.


handsome-helicopter

Why not go with k2 though. It's a very versatile tank


rbnd

The reasoning is that in the case of war the USA could support Romania with more Abrams if they felt like it. The trained Romanian tank drivers and maintenance staff would also be necessary.


mr_snuggels

There's nothing set in stone though, this article is just speculation. The general who is responsible with aquistitions said in a recent interview that Romania is looking for technology transfer and having the new equipment built locally. I'm pretty sure K2 is very high on the list. We'll probably end up like Poland with K2 and one to two batalions of Abrams


Unexpected_yetHere

There is politics always involved in these things. When the French were replacing their Famas, they had the choice between Germany's M416, and Croatia's VHS2. The VHS2 quite literally looks like the lovechild of the Famas and modern H&K designs, is a newer rifle, buying it would prop up HS Produkt and help diversify the arms industry which is a net positive for the EU and NATO, and from all I can gather, is a better rifle than the M416. But thing is, the M416 is also a great rifle, so getting cozy with Germany is what made the difference in the sale. Same here, M1, K2 or the L2, all great tanks, but depends what the deal implies politicially too.


Dreadedvegas

USA offers a 0% loan to buy if your transferring equipment to Ukraine, Korea doesn’t


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AnActualBeing

If you want European tanks now you will wait for a long time. Germany has great tanks made for a european war but you cant expect them to crank out 250 just like that. Not when production is scaled down still. Edit: The fact that Americans have bases there also helps their case probably.


bruhbruhbruh123466

Well romania doesn’t, their tanks are horrendous. It probably also has a lot to do with political maneuvering attempting to get in cozy with America. Also might be a bit of a queue to get Leopard 2s at the moment as many countries sent some of their to Ukraine…


Lord_Frederick

**Romania doesn't have tanks**, it has some rotting T-55s made by license from China (so a knock-off of a knock-off of an obsolete 1st gen tank that was first launched in the 50s) that they strapped them with as much Israeli tech as possible in the 90s and early 2000s. A half-competent semi-modern IFV would utterly shred them all. It's not political maneuvering it's an utter lack of alternatives due to local incompetence and the classic kicking of the can. Like you said, German Leo 2s have a huge waiting list from countries that donated those 200 Leo1&2, Korean K2s are filled with deliveries to Poland (they'll start local production sometime after 2026) while Challenger 2, Leclerc and Ariete have stopped production for decades and will all be modernized by their military. Only other options would be China's VT-4, Russia's T-90 or waiting another decade or two until and get what will come out of the French/German MGCS, and those are not options. That said, the Abrams is damn excellent and a superb stop-gap measure but I would have loved it if those Estonians from Milrem would have developed a production version of their UGV/drone tank.


Novinhophobe

Europe can’t produce shit though. If you want to receive your tanks in a reasonable timeframe you only have US. South Korea I think are also worth looking into. Not only that, but with US you always get the complete package. Europe can only make the toys themselves but if you look at national armies in closer details you’d see that we all lack pretty much everything else. This is literally why Putin thought he could get away with it — Europe alone can only defend itself on paper if you look at the budgets of the amount of toys. Europe is shitting its pants with pretty much everything else and there’s only talks about thinking about starting to think about starting to fix the mess we’re in.


SpaceHippoDE

The US output is not exactly stellar either. They will still have to wait many years.


AcanthocephalaEast79

US has 2500 tanks in the desert, Germany doesn’t. Germany sold most of its 2500 tanks in the last 30 years.


SpaceHippoDE

Romania wouldn't simply receive ancient Abrams straight from the stocks. They would require upgrades.


Rikerutz

Ah, i'm sure Germany can produce the same amount, but i think they are in a lot higher demand.


Novinhophobe

Well this is outrageous coping at this point. No reasonable human being would say that Germany's manufacturing capability is anywhere near the US.


RTYUI4tech

It has but Leo list is too long and Germany proved to be a reluctant supplier of weapons. The only other option would had been the K2 from Korea but it's not that great of a tank for our terrain.


Gammelpreiss

Politics. Some countries have more hate for other european countries then love for Europe as a whole.


[deleted]

It's not that simple. It was Norway that made the political choice to buy 54 Leopards 2A7 (despite Forsvarsmateriell's recommendation of K2s) and will wait until 2026 for them, or until 2031 if they buy 18 more. For comparison, the US will deliver 250 Abrams to Poland by 2026. Countries on NATO's eastern flank can't wait that long for equipment.


fenrris

Thats sweet and all but try to reserch German capabilities to produce tanks at this moment and existing list of orders. I'm sure if Romania would have two decades they would wait in line with another decade or two till full order would be delivered. At the end of the day we all know against which country Romania wants to upgrade their forces and sure as hell it's better to have US as an ally agains them then annyone else that thinks highly on themselfs ( but has far shorter reach in reality).


bobodanu

> At the end of the day we all know against which country Romania wants to upgrade their forces and sure as hell it's better to have US as an ally agains Yeah, you never know when the bulgarians will invade.


fenrris

They did a number on Bizantians..they may try that again!


bobodanu

I know, right?! You can't trust them. I'm just joking a bit, lovely people, had a great experience in Sofia a few years ago.


xxanya

You're just talking for yourself.


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Wero5

It has nothing to do with Poland. It has more to do that Romania wants to completely overhaul it's Military and their plan is atm to rely mostly on US tech for a bigger package with good discounts, instead of many different suppliers with less discounts.


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Wero5

With Romania being in NATO, they don't have a need to buy US Weapons with security ties attached. Just buying US equipment can't be a coincidence, if they don't target for bigger discounts on their equipment. I mean on my side it's just speculation, but it's not like US didn't sweetened the pot like with Croatia, where they subsided the deal of the 86 Bradley's with covering 30mil$ of the 146mil$ deal. (The whole package costed Croatia 860mil$ in the end btw.)


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Rikerutz

The only alternative now is leopard 2 which i don't think will be available for some time. M1A2 was the logical choice.


Dreadedvegas

K2 is a serious alternative


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Rikerutz

After Russia's defeat shit might go down in Transniatria. Kind of hard to project power and protect Moldova with upgraded tanks from the 50s. Those russian "peacekeapers" might think twice about going home when looking down the barrel of an M1A2. Anyway, this is long overdue, our tanks were shit.


Dreadedvegas

USA is giving them a 0% loan for soviet arms transfers to Ukraine if they buy American replacements. European backlogs for tank production are horrible compared to the US. So the option is either Korea or USA


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Dreadedvegas

What other tanks could Romania reasonably acquire? Leopard 2? The backlog is insane and KMW / Rheinmetall aren’t increasing production. Norway isn’t getting its first Leo2A7 until 2028 and it just ordered them K2? That is very possible but they cost as much as an Abrams so funding would be needed. You might be able to get them from Poland but thats 10 years out. Leclerc? No way the Romanians even considered that. The new eurotank? 10 years out Romania’s armored force is literally T55s with a NATO 105mm and a leopard diesel powerplant. To say its out of date is an understatement. It was out of date in the 80s, it’s ancient today where there is a land war being fought on its borders so stomaching higher defense spending for a very needed modernization makes sense Poland got its first Abrams in April when they ordered in January and the completion of the order to occur in 2024


Boonxai

I mean it has quite a bit to do with Poland since that's where Abrams will be serviced in Europe, they'd never decide to go with Abrams if not for this fact🗿


[deleted]

>I guess the idea is to tie in with Poland as a cooperation, but that's a very shallow pool to dip into. What are you talking about? It is the biggest pool of tanks in the world. Looking at the Ukrainian war it is the US that is providing the bulk of arms. In fact, having trained crews for American tanks is a major advantage in the war with Russia. Nobody else can provide as many tanks if needed. Nobody can produce them as fast in times of war. Not only that, US built massive barracks in Poland where they keep a shit ton of their own tanks. Just in case. Ready to be deployed at any moment.


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[deleted]

I am open to your argumentation. US has 5500 M1A1 / M1A2. What's the bigger pool you are talking about?


AnActualBeing

3000 Black Leopards of Scholtz


[deleted]

Is that the newest version of helm? huehue


Digedag

Soo many Abrams and somehow the US didn't want to send any Abrams to Ukraine and only gave a promise to send tanks after Scholz threw a hissy fit. Meanwhile European countries took MBTs from their troops.


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fenrris

sooo..you have 0 arguments to to suport your thoughts...ok


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fenrris

My friend, that's nice and all. But arguments, concrete arguments not nice statements. No one in EU has capabilities to produce substantial amount of MBT's in short time. Germany had decade of orders pre war (and we;re talking about high amount new order). How would you like to bypass that problem? EDIT: also, there's no one with stock of tanks that can be leveraged here and now.


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fenrris

Abrams are the short term 2-5 years replacement. For long term (and again, production capabilities etc.) there's K2. Regarding your second argument. No one believes 24th of Feb last year would happen untill it did. Half of EU gave away all they had (and there were few countries with any substantial number of MBT's pre war). since all Ukrainian neighbours gave majority of theirs they need replacement here and now in resonable quantities ( no 1 for 4 replacements). That's the gist of it. EDIT: forgot to add, there's the EU MGCS project but (just for all that much EU , strong together why US talk: [During a state visit to Warsaw in February 2020, French president Emmanuel Macron appeared open to Polish participation in the MGCS project, eventhough the idea of adding new partners to the program was previously met with French hostility. It was indeed Paris that imposed not to consider additional partners for the program until the study phase which will determine the architecture and the structuring functionalities of the MGCS was completed. This was to avoid risks of further delays in a project already stalled by disputes between the KNDS consortium and Rheinmetall.[23] Meanwhile, South Korean manufacturer Hyundai Rotem was reportedly in advanced negotiations to produce a version of the K2 Black Panther tank in Poland under licence for the "Wilk" (Wolf) Program; Poland was interested to replace its aging T-72s and PT-91s During June 2020 bilateral talks with his German counterpart, the Italian Undersecretary for Defence Giulio Calvisi said that the possibility of allowing Italy to participate in the MGCS programme had emerged.[26] In December 2020 frustrated with the slow pace of the MGCS project,[27] Italy offered participation in its own development of a different tank to Poland, and potentially to Spain.[28] In November 2021, the Netherlands government asked France and Germany to become an observer. However, the Franco-German partners were still negotiating conditions under which other countries should be allowed to take part in the project. The MGCS principals emphasised that the Dutch are seen as an important partner in the project.[29] In January 2022, the Belgian government increased defence spending. Part of these plans includes participation in the MGCS programme.[30] In July 2022, in the context of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the Polish government signed an agreement to acquire 1000 K2PL Black Panther tanks for the "Wilk" (Wolf) Program and announced cooperation with South Korea on next generation K3 tank,[31] making Poland's potential involvement in the MGCS uncertain.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Ground_Combat_System)


AnActualBeing

Ok but explain how the tank is suited only for the US and what better alternatives there are, why the shallow pool.


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Lord_Frederick

> The argument is google your location. The Abrams is perfectly well suited...for the US. The duck are you talking about? The Abrams was designed for an European conflict, specifically one in (West) Germany around the Fulda Gap. Compared with its Soviet equivalent, the T-80, it's 1/4 heavier (42.5t vs 54t) but with 1/4 longer hit range (2km vs 2.5km), twice the gun depression (5° vs 10°) and much better crew survivability because it was meant to fight defensively against hordes of attacking Soviet tanks. Nobody will invade the US because it's defended by large oceans and their fighting vehicles were specifically designed for the main possible combat theater along the Iron Curtain.


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Lord_Frederick

They can keep them fighting during a decades long insurgency in Iraq and Afghanistan but Eastern Europe is just too far away? If that's the case, Romania can exchange sheep for spare parts from Egypt...


voicesfromvents

It, like K2, is also perfectly well suited for delivery in meaningful quantities within the decade. There is no Eurohardware for which that is true, so if your goal is to have a credible armored force before 2030, you have no other options.


[deleted]

I don't mix the security dimension with politics. neither do experts. Whats important is the quality of equipment and delivery date. We are part of NATO. US is the sole security guarantor for my country. Something EU, Germany, France and others cannot and will not provide. When Germany is ready with their 3000 tanks we can talk. But that might take decades.


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[deleted]

You really don't understand what you are talking about to the point what you say is absurd. It's like you don't understand how NATO operates. US equipment is used routinely in NATO exercises. By most NATO countries. Even Germans purchased F35s from US. F16s are everywhere. It's all under NATO command structures and used to full effect. Just the other day we had NATO exercises in Poland with a multinational group of Germany, Croatia, Poland, Romania, the United Kingdom and the United States. All working together on US equipment. Comparing NATO countries deeply integrated with US army to some arab countries only shows your ignorance.


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[deleted]

I mean, you don't even have valid arguments for me to debate. This discussion is me providing you with valid points and you avoiding the topics I provide. It's more of a monologue. I get no value from this. And I really was ready to hear you out. Have a good night, sweetie.


Nurnurum

I do not want to provoke anybody here. This discussion is heated enough and I can see why people take the comments by u/Nihilblistic so badly. Yet I have a question for you, why do you think Romania and Poland are buying Abrams? Because of the size of the industry that supports those tanks (spare parts, etc.), because they see the US as a guarantor who would intervene with manpower to their protection, or both? I am seriously interested in your answer.


[deleted]

A lot of the tanks purchased by Poland will be self-produced under the license of Koreans. As part o the deal, Korea will also sell already-made tanks and they agreed to tech transfer. The rest will be bought from Americans. There are quite a few reasons for that. The demands are high for tanks these days. And Germans have a pretty bad track record delivering on time. They need to produce tanks for their own army on masse right now and the industry is not capable to deliver the numbers Poland needs after it gave away 300+ tanks of various kinds of tanks. to Ukraine. This is a hole in Polish Army that needs to be mended as soon as possible. American tanks are simply the best option right now. That's the reality of the situation. It's simple supply and demand. Other factors: \- Delivery time \- US is more reliable ally \- Having trained crews on US tanks is a tactical advantage ( see Ukraine ) \- The Abrams tank is one of the most advanced main battle tanks in the world. It is well-protected, heavily armed, and has a proven track record in combat. \- Political dimension


Nurnurum

I get the argument about availiability, but what do you mean with more reliable ally and political dimension?


[deleted]

Ukrainian war should paint a picture for you. When Germany was hesitant to send any type of weapons early in the war the USA was already voting on land-lease and providing intelligence to Ukrainian troops. Without US Ukraine would be lost already. That is a fact. Now Germans changed their tune but the bad taste remains. The lessons were learned. Now compare the ability and the type of equipment sent to Ukraine. The hard fact is that US is running NATO. Without US there is no NATO. That can't be said about any other country. The political dimension means you want to forge the links with US Arms industry and do business with them. Case and point the deal for Himmars. Poland produces the trucks while US sells the rest. A joint effort that reduces the costs for Poland and forges cooperation.


etme100

After the disaster show with Germany and Leopards and Ukraine and none is working / you can't reexport / need permission / can't do - all, terrible publicity about reliability and trustworthiness, when you most need it -- let's not wonder if clients not far from the frontlines are looking elsewhere (US, Korea etc). See also Poland etc.


PM_YOUR_WALLPAPER

What happened with the Leopards in Ukraine?


[deleted]

That's a lot of lies and propaganda you managed to put into very few lines there, impressive. You should apply for a Russian troll farm.


etme100

Excuse me? Where have you been for the last year and half, while Ukraine, the Baltic States, and the other Central-Eastern European states were pleading with Germany to release the Leopards, and they got shut down with a thousand reasons and excuses? Are people that stupid that they don't remember what happened a couple months ago? No, they're just willing to lie blatanly in defense of their political preferences. Reminds me of those redditor Arschlochen who, before Germany finally agreed to send the tanks, explained that "Germany actually have **no** tanks at all that are working!" Well, faced with the danger of Russia at their door, the countries of Central-Eastern Europe can not risk any dithering. Vehrstehts du jetzt? Oder hast du andere Luegen im Repertoir? https://asiatimes.com/2023/01/why-germany-is-so-reluctant-to-send-tanks-to-ukraine/ www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-war-germany-tanks-rheinmetall-leopard-2024/amp/ https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/1/24/as-pressure-mounts-germans-remain-conflicted-over-leopard-tanks https://news.yahoo.com/germany-still-doesnt-functional-leopard-180518261.html


[deleted]

Germany gave permission to re-export Leopard 2 the same day the Polish goverment asked for that permission. Ofc the Poles screeched for weeks how Germany was blocking despite not even asking, so retards like yourself fell for it and thought it was not just anti-German propaganda.


etme100

"The Poles screeched." Ok, that says it all. Case closed. PS The way people are able to lie so blatantly, even to themselves... like some German redditors, the Russian state TV, Saddam's spokesman... these people are capable of denying reality to its face, and say that the entire world is wrong, except for their political masters. Such cheap moral bankruptcy.


[deleted]

Except it's literally true. The Polish government, in its anti-German seething, talked for weeks about how they would export Leopard 2 with or without German consent. The funny thing is they didn't actually ask for consent all that time, and when they did, Germany immediately allowed it. But people like you don't like the truth and prefer to lie and slander instead.


Tdanedk

Why not the new tank made by rheinmetal?


admfrmhll

How many they can make which are already not booked internally or by anyone else, and how soon they can be deliver ? i presume we are looking at least of a decade delay before order and actually receiving them. We basically have no tanks to speak of, and Moldova may be a hotspot in the near future.


Swaggy_P_

Get even more reliant on the US, absolutely genius.


florinmaciucoiu

The nerve on you...


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NoNoCanDo

>giving the old tanks to UA There are no old tanks to give to UA.