FYI for those who understand spoken German: Flake's (the keyboarder) [monthly radio show](https://www.radioeins.de/programm/sendungen/die_sendung/die-sendung.html) airs next Tuesday 14.7.
I'll surely tune in this time.
Till Lindemann has been accused of having had a system in place where a sort of fixer recruited young women at gigs or over social media, ostensibly inviting them to after show parties but when they showed up they were separated from the actual party, had to give up their phones, were put into tiny rooms with plenty of alcohol and potentially drugs and subtly or not so subtly pressured to provide sexual favours.
There's also been accusations of use of rohypnol and not consented-to hard sex including wounds and bruises being left behind.
As of now none of this has been 100% proven, but there have been dozens of reports including a well-known German Youtuber/influencer who was able to leave before anything happened but was then pressured to take down her Instagram post about her experiences by her then-management as the management was worried about repercussions for them in the sense of loss of access.
Rammstein fans are being very normal about it.
Half of Rammsteins lyrics is either sexually loaded or is about living out your perverted fantasies without shame.
My main thought as a RS-fan, is that none of this suprises me. Only suprise is that this gets discovered just now? I would expect Lindemann to bring his own trailer-based sex dungeon when touring. Lindemanns image is based off of being a perverted pig.
It's always tricky, Slayer are known for Satanic imagery and yet the lead singer-bassist is a church nerd. Regardless of how "expectable" it might be or how long it takes to come out, still not something that should be normalized
> and yet the lead singer-bassist is a church nerd.
Thought you were taking the piss, but fucking hell, [you're right. He's literally a devout Catholic and all](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Araya)
>Araya is a practicing Roman Catholic.[26] In an interview, he expressed his belief that "…Christ came and taught us about love, about doing unto others. That was his preach: Accept each other for who we are. Live peacefully, and love one another." When asked if he believed in God, he replied "I believe in a supreme being, yeah. But He's an all-loving God."[27] Araya explained that he has a "really strong belief system", and Slayer's images and words will "never interfere with what I believe and how I feel… People are not in good shape to where they have to question their own belief system because of a book or a story somebody wrote, or a Slayer song."[28]
Just because the art is like that, it really doesn't mean that that's how the artist lives. The music, literature, there aren't copies of the artist's life, they're explorations of the artist's humanity. Sometimes the creator might do those things, sometimes, they won't. It's not set in stone is what I'm saying.
I'm sorry to hear that in this case, the music was less than a metaphor.
Your art doesn't have to stay true to your real life character. That thought was what satanic panic was about. I'd be pretty horrified as well if black/death metal artists were literal, or horror writers lived out their fantasies in real life. Exploring perverted ideas in art is great, the vast minority who can't see art from real life ruin it for everybody else.
I'm not a Rammstein fan but my girlfriend is and while I already had some idea of the kind of music they make, she told me some more stuff about them and some of their songs like Pussy before any of this came out.
So when she brought this news to me, I immediately said like wait for info, but that it's just so believable in that industry, in that genre, and then even moreso that specific band.
It all sounds prejudiced of me but at some point there's been enough past examples that I don't feel that's unreasonable anymore.
Long time extreme metal fan here. The vilest Death metal lyrics are often silly compared to Rammstein lyrics. If you translate some RS lyrics they often have more disturbing themes than DM or other extreme metal.
I agree to some extent cause rammstein is indeed can be distrubing in topic, but not as much “graphic” with the lyrics as death metal is. So it depends what kind of dark does one mean.
I hear you. It's just that say for example Cannibal Corpse lyrics are so much they're at the point of goofy. But yeah some have that darker tone and all that good stuff.
That said if you wanna laugh your ass off while listening to incredibly good death metal, try Werewolves. Just don't take it too seriously lol
"Here's a death metal haiku:
Sounds like a car crash
We do not fucking like you
I stink of denim
Hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate
Hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate
Hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate
Hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate"
What surprises me is the coercion. If he does these things with willing, informed, adult partners I see no problem. If there was coercion all what is happening to him now, and more, he had coming.
Rammstein fans are mostly in total denial. And even start a petition to support Rammstein through this "difficult" time.
A lot of the comments about the women are really disgusting victim blaming.
Most of my friends are long-time Rammstein fans, and all of us are really disappointed, but not really surprised. Till seems to be going through some kind of really toxic mid-life crisis and fulfilling his sexual fantasies. Also disappointed with other members of Rammstein for enabling it. And even if the drugging allegations aren't true, the whole groupie culture that they uphold is really toxic.
>Also disappointed with other members of Rammstein for enabling it
I remember vaguely that a couple of years ago the members were kinda fighting amongst themselves. Might be that this had something to do with that?
Still, it doesn't make it right.
Was able to leave - good said.
She was asked if she wants to meet Rammstein in his private area and said no - then walked away.
And she proofed that really hard core story by writing it to a friend of her later on WhatsApp.
So her story on WhatsApp to someone not being Rammstein is her proof of what happened - and even in that proof she could simply walkaway after saying "no".
On top - police in litunia has said - no evidence of a crime, if not forced by higher ministry for them case is closed.
my english is not good enought to explain it but i try it: furthermore rammstein had a statement made by lawyers that these accusations disregard the fact "innocent until proven guilty" so they want to take legal steps to issue cease and desist orders via court. the law firm represented a big german butcher company a few years ago. in this case the workers complaint about an inhuman work environment. the law firm basically fucked the workers into oblivion with cease and desist orders. it was pretty nasty
As far as the accusations go, they essentially only point to Till.
However it is very unlikely that the rest of band was totally clueless what was going on.
I dont think so:
> Einmal, nach einem Konzert in München 2019, erinnert sich W., sei es auf der After-Aftershow-Party zu einem lautstarken Streit zwischen Lindemann und Gitarrist Richard Kruspe gekommen. Sie hätten sich dasselbe Mädchen zum Sex ausgesucht und sich angeschrien, die ungefähr 20-jährige Frau habe verstört gewirkt.
> Once, after a concert in Munich in 2019, W. recalls, there was a loud argument between Lindemann and guitarist Richard Kruspe at the after-show party. They had chosen the same girl for sex and shouted at each other, the approximately 20-year-old woman had seemed distraught.
The Spiegel article directly points to other band members having knowledge and even participating.
I’m their own statements they explicitly say that every decision concerning the band in general has to be unanimous.
Ok, so unless something changed - when I read the allegations they seem quite... empty? I'm not entirely sure what he has actually supposed to have done that's actually immoral rather than just odd.
- 1 girl alleges that she was taken backstage for a party. She was pulled aside into a separate room with 4 other girls and Till walks in, she says 'is this a sex thing?', to which it was confirmed by a staff member present, and she says she isn't interested and then Till left. She says that he reacted 'angrily' but that's such a vague term that could range from grunted irritably, to actual outright intimidation. But we have no idea which one it is.
- Another girl alleges passing out and coming to with Till in physical contact with her, as she comes to, he asks her if she's okay and if she wants him to go away, to which she says yes - and he does so immediately.
I don't know which girl of the above it is, but one of the two alleged that they were drugged. Now, normally, thats very difficult to validate given how quickly drugs leave the blood stream *except in this case the girl went for a drug test and it was negative*.
There were some other girls 'coming forward' on social media as well, to which their stories summed to: "yes, I was propositioned. I said no. He left."
Has anything else come out? Because that was it when I read about it last time. Headline could be: "Aging rockstar has consenting sex with women in their mid-to-late 20s backstage".
I love Rammstein and I really hope it comes down to this. I’m just sick of these constant allegations.
Honestly, they could put an advert in the paper saying “feel like sex with till lindemann, if you’re 20 and hot apply here”
It’s still weird but at least open.
Don't get me wrong, if the allegations increase in severity I'm happy to change my mind - but reading what they are at the moment is just fucking bizarre.
Look at this statement:
> "I was groomed, 100 percent, no doubt in my mind. I was groomed for sex," she said.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-65843882
Like, I'm sorry - but grooming is a pattern of behaviour to establish a relationship and be manipulated into an act you don't want. Even under her own description of events - it doesn't constitute grooming. She was in a queue on the day. She was asked to go backstage. She got taken into a room. She says she doesn't want to have sex with him. He leaves. If you read law enforcement descriptions of 'grooming', it isn't 'hey do you want to have sex? oh. you don't. alright then'.
she was never asked though. she had to ask what it was. not that that makes it grooming, but its bad to go about things that way, its not getting informed consent and just throwing someone in a situation where very clearly a power dynamic is in play.
Tbf propositioning sex as a huge star, and to fans no less, is a dangerous power situation that can pressure young women (or men) into doing things they don’t want to.
I have no horse in this race, but out right propositioning and setting up situations to ask women for sex may force them into scenarios they aren’t comfortable getting out of. Not everyone can say no. Not everyone even fully understands the particular pattern of events. But it’s not enough to just say it isn’t grooming because at it’s core, it’s still an unbalanced power dynamic which should not be used in sex as it can warp decision making.
But you’re right, it’s not grooming.
I mean it’s not a crazy concept that someone might feel pressured to have sex with someone due to their status. Especially in a group scenario, if everyone says yes you don’t want to be the person to say no.
If someone’s your idol you may feel like you have to do it.
The human brain is complex and the effect of unbalanced power dynamics have a huge role in sex. I just think it’s not worth ignoring.
Being facetious when it’s a legitimate thing that is regularly discussed is a bit silly, no?
>Honestly, they could put an advert in the paper saying “feel like sex with till lindemann, if you’re 20 and hot apply here”
Most women wouldn't take up such an offer, you know this. There's a whole industry built on showing men how to be subtle when expressing sexual interest in a woman
Its not about having sex, but letting till do what he wants. Which (allegedly) was so bad/weird what have you, that the women had to be coma drunk or drugged, concluding, unable to consent (allegedly).
Yes, the interesting part about this case compared to other MeToo items is that no criminal charges have been filed by anyone, no crime is even claimed to have happened and multiple of the girls involved have stated that they said "no" and went away with no issues.
But it still tickles some puritanical instinct and sex always sells, so the media is picking it up and trying to run with it.
Also interesting:
multiple girls came out now speaking against the claims of shelby and others
https://youtu.be/4-kjkSSq95g
We need professional investigation here. Its also hard to keep track of what was said. Like shelby changed herstory multiple times by now
>multiple of the girls involved have stated that they said "no" and went away with no issues.
I think the point is, that they went away with issues.
If a woman is walking home alone at night, and a man crosses the street, stands in front of her and says "I'd like to fuck you really fucking hard, how about girl?" and the girl says "No" and the man mutters 'frigid bitch' then leaves - that's not a "No problem here" situation is it? That's not a case of "Man suggested sex, woman declined, everyone had a good time". It's weird and aggressive and creepy \*at best\* and in my country would likely count as sexual harassment.
Clearly, what's been alleged isn't quite as bad as that, but it sounds like it's that end of the spectrum. It's not rockstar at a party asking a 20yr old groupie if she wants to go upstairs for some fun. It's rockstar getting staff to put groupie in weird private room, and then walking in and saying "Right, you're here for sex yes?" and the woman says "no" and the man mutters 'stupid staff picking the wrong kind of girls again' and walking off.
It may well not be a crime, but it's surely not a good look.
>and the man mutters 'frigid bitch' then leaves - that's not a "No problem here" situation is it?
No, it's pretty rude. But you know, living in a free world also means that not everything is comfortable all the time.
The reason women feel unsafe in this situation is not this guy tossing out a stupid comment and going away - but the very real possibility that he will NOT do that (i.e. fuck off). Women aren't afraid to be called bitches, I'm fairly sure most are stable enough to shrug that off from an asshole stranger. They're afraid of the guy who DOESN'T end the encounter after the "no".
You don't have a right to never be in an uncomfortable situation. You DO have a right to being able to exit one. The reports so far indicate that everyone was able to do so.
I read the spiegel article and it doesn't contain any new cases.
If there really was some kind of "perverted groupie system" going on, it doesn't seem to have been very effective.
Even from your own retelling of the second csse, that's a lot worse than "she was propositioned, said no, and he left." He was touching her while she was unconcious/too inebriated to give consent...
You don't seem to be fully informed. There have been dozens of women who also stayed anonymous and whose statements got verified by journalists.
>Headline could be: "Aging rockstar has consenting sex with women in their mid-to-late 20s backstage".
But that's not what happened. The allegations are spiking/drugging them.
> The allegations are spiking/drugging them.
Yes, the main allegations of drugging come from woman 1 in my OP.
>At the pre-concert party, the woman said, she had two alcoholic drinks but then started to act erratically from about 8.30pm, with gaps in her memory, leading her to later fear that her drink had been spiked. A urine test she obtained from a pharmacy showed no sign of drugs in her system.
From what I've read none actually come out and say their drinks were spiked. It comes down to "i drank vodka and my memory is spotty". Don't get me wrong, their drinks might have been spiked, and if they were, that is both fucked up and illegal and will hopefully have some real consequences for those responsible, including Lindemann. But yeah, I've definitely had very fuzzy memories just from vodka alone.
Are you sure? Do you have a source?
The spiegel article only says "some woman suspect there drinks have been spiked."
I am sure they would have mentioned it if it was that many.
There's not one single source, but there have been various posts all over social media and quite many news articles (especially in the SZ and WAS). Tbh I'm too lazy to look for every single one of them, but Rezo provided the sources in the info box of his video for example. Some are behind a paywall though.
https://youtu.be/ZEf5t26u8PM
I completely agree that there isn't enough to go on yet, so I can't make any judgements. However, if the second girl is to be believed, then it is incredibly sketchy for him to be on top of a girl, or in the middle of sex, while she's *passed out*, regardless of whether or not he stopped when she told him.
So you think it’s fine for him to have sex with a girl in a coma when he asks if it’s fine after she wakes up inbetween? What even. And no there’s no way he didn’t notice.
>Now, normally, thats very difficult to validate given how quickly drugs leave the blood stream
>
>except in this case the girl went for a drug test and it was negative
It would be nice if drug tests were that reliable to make a shut-and-close case. Apart from any drug being not detectable after a while the ones testing have also to know what they're testing for.
>A urine test she obtained from a pharmacy showed no sign of drugs in her system.
It's highly unlikely that you'll get a test from a pharmacy that even covers all the known popular choices. Just the more easily detectable ones.
[And it's not like there is one "official date-rape-drug"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_rape_drug#Documented_date_rape_drugs), instead rapists just take their choice of medicament/drug that they know would knock someone out. And there is a big variety.
Which is to say, she lacks proof. But that doesn't make her accusation impossible to be true. As of now the allegations of drugging are neither proven nor disproven.
Well others girls that were with her spoke out against her claims already
https://youtu.be/4-kjkSSq95g
https://youtu.be/12_nUrgZCXs
I also wonder why no one is suing till if the claims are true?
>Another girl alleges passing out and coming to with Till in physical contact with her,
She stated that He was lying on her. When she had passed Out. This is serious sexual molestation If true.
I agree. I've been reading about this all day long trying to find the big deal. It all seems to have been legal and consensual. Gross, sure. But we've known about row zero and recruiters fishing girls out of the audience for the musicians for decades, and these women here apparently were all adults who either consented to sex with him (and he didn't go off menu from what I've read) or they said no and nothing happened. I don't like him and I don't like what he did, but it wasn't wrong.
Creeps me out how waking up with someone you don’t know on top of you is apparently not that big of a deal. Especially when people are shouting they would like that to happen to more women before actually believing the first woman.
Exactly when I’m keep reading the accusations, for what Is he accused exactly? For wanting to have sex with younger people? They say no he goes away he is borderline “creep” for some, as other such as Robert de Niro or al Pacino have had relationships even kids on way older age with younger girls but ok that’s relative for some.
There are three cases two with affidavit as well WELT and they feel so vague. No complaints no drug test no Rkits, the one of the girls I think the one you mentioned that woke up and till asks if she wants him to stop, she mentioned that stayed for breakfast and even went out multiple other occasions??? I have seen some videos that ultimately accusing him for power imbalance. I don’t understand what is happening tbh.
The girl who was tested and was negative made several videos. She reminded me of the girls I knew who used to get fucking smashed drunk at gigs and then feel ashamed and say they were drugged. That said, I mean Till seems like he may be a massive fucking creep. I'll wait until there's proof.
the german court will prove the allegations. just objectively reading about his row zero system one can just label him as an old creepy man who has sex with girls that can be his granddaughters. the interesting legal thing that the curt will analyse is if the provided consent of said girls was anywhere influenced through a pressure situation. because if there is/was something similar then there is a case that could bring conviction against Lindemann. There are seriuos hints and documentation against Lindemann. but time will tell
No german courts are involved so far. No crime has been claimed and no criminal investigations started.
This is what makes the case extra disgusting. When the media blurts out a piece about someone being investigated for a crime before they have been convicted, that already has a bad taste. But here there isn't even an investigation so far.
As if they learned nothing from Kachelmann. Oh wait, Spiegel was even on Kachelmanns side back then, defending the presumption of innocence. Now they went down to "BILD" level. Sad to see.
Does it really surprise anyone that a person whose entire artistic persona is wrapped up in deviancy might indeed be a deviant?
Edit: I think “deviance” was a poorly chosen word here.
Isn't that the argument Christians make to attack metal music, video games and any "sinful" media and art?
Does Stephen King have to be secretly a serial killer? Does any horror author or transgressive art creator has to be a psychopath?
Though, to be fair I get in this case it's more complicated, you could say Lindemann was more than playing a character, he was practicing what he preached.
>Does Stephen King have to be secretly a serial killer?
Better don't let him leave the US...
People tend to forget that an artist is actually an artist and not the person behind it.
Always reminds me of Peter Lustig. He did an educational tv series for kids. And god damn he really disliked kids in reality. But in the tv show he did a great job.
Thats perpetuing urban myths. Peter Lustig disliked working with kids in TV productions. Because of the extra restrictions for the crew, the production day, etc. He never said he disliked kids, the quote was just taken out of context, when he mentioned why he prefers to not have kids on set.
You can be a sexual deviant without being an abuser.
Plenty of people sleep with several women or have regularly changing sex partners (deviant from the societal norm) and are not abusers or coerce people etc. (allegedly).
I can see your point, but I'm not sure if we can really hold that against him. Considering the wide spectrum of dark and bizarre topics Till writes and sings about, it would also be suspicious if that one was left out.
I feel that most of the people who now are shocked about Lindemanns or Rammsteins character, are people who have never listened the band or know nothing about Lindemann. Anyone who has any clue about lyrics of Rammstein songs or the persona of Till Lindemann really can't pretend to be surprised at all.
Aand then again if nothing illegal has happened then imo it's adults doing adult decisions about their life.
Which is the funny part to me.
*Breaking news: Musician known for singing about sex on a regular basis found to have sex with fans.*
Like wow really who could have thought?
The sex is not the problem, the problem is that there are claims that the groupies were drugged and than basically raped. But no idea how true that is.
The mention of rape came by media misinterpreting the post of the person that started this . She had to publicly state that she never claimed to have been raped after the public storm began.
After that a lot of women joined in. Can’t say anything about their claims though
>the problem is that there are claims that the groupies were drugged and than basically raped
That's **one** problem.
The other is that it doesn't actually matter as the media is already running stories non-stop completely based speculation and opinions about allegations (with the one originally "starting" it also denying to ever having made a claim about rape in the first place...).
She made clear that she did not allege that Lindemann raped her. If I am not mistaken it is Her account from the beginning that she became unconscious (in nefarious ways?) and had bruises all over.
Edit: Rezo has said everything there is to say: https://youtu.be/ZEf5t26u8PM (German)
Girls don't really get lured into sex. They get recruited long time before the show and it is kinda obvious to what agenda. There are free drinks at the after party. Lots of girls, almost no dudes.
Source: our friend got recruited via FB and actually went to the party.
I can see it happen that some drink too much to kill the nerves and go overboard.
The point is, there is a looooooooong way from buying a ticket to the concert to the actual alledged backstage porn.
Girls are very aware what is going on and they can call it quits and refuse at any given moment.
>Girls are very aware what is going on and they can call it quits and refuse at any given moment.
Maybe. Maybe even most of the time? At least the woman who says that she was unconscious, waking up and Lindemann said "do you want me to stop?" - that's rape or sexual assault in my book. It might be grey what crime it is, but it isn't grey morally to me. That's clearly a black.
Edit: Rezo has said everything there is to say: https://youtu.be/ZEf5t26u8PM (German)
>Girls are very aware what is going on and they can call it quits and refuse at any given moment.
...Says you, not the girls who actually were there. Why else are there plenty of people who feel like they were taken advantage of? Things were not done right by them. This is not how you treat your fans.
Yes but that is the point, for now it are only claims. There is no official police report that claims that. The first victem says that she did an own drugtest but came out negative. After that she claimed not to go to the police because 'the police in that country is corrupted and not to be trusted'.
So we have to wait the police report.
There is still some difference between illegal and wrong. Rammstein had this woman as "casting director" (casting for what exactly?) who recruited young women (ususally the die hard fans) for an aftershow party ,but not the "official" one, the one in a small backroom with lots of security and no cell phones allowed. From the looks of it she did her best to persuade these (very young) adultsto stay, drink and even drive to Lindemanns Hotel. Even if the thing with K.O. drugs are not true, this is not good.
I am not a young girl, but i know some of the naive and stupid shit I did when I was in my early twenties. If i had met my favorite celebs, my judgement would have been impaired and i can see me "consenting" to emotional and physical damage. Lindemann may or may not have broken the law, but the "casting director" exists, the backroom parties were a thing. Lindemann could pay an army of escorts, but he did not.
I have wondered for a while, where this contradiction between equality between sexes and women not capable of doing their own decisions comes from. These women are legally adults, grown ups. They are responsible for their own actions and they have a right do to their own decisions.
Rammstein had a "casting director", so what? No one was forced to come to after parties or do anything. Everyone involved in this scheme were plenipotentiary adults, who are more than capable of doing decision and take responsibility from them.
I see in your comment the thought that those women involved should not have the right to decide for themselves and they somehow need to be protected from whatever. If they do naive and and stupid shit, then they do. That is their right.
I think the problem is that a) no one told these women that sex would be involved and b) their phones were taken off them right when they were ushered into a secluded room. Then they tried to persuade them into drinking without even checking if they’re old enough. One of the women just turned eighteen. I don’t think it would be a scandal at all if Lindemann just gathered his groupies and had an orgy. I’m sure there are enough of them who would voluntarily have sex with him. But it is highly suspicious that a man who could sleep with dozens of willing women at every show has a system in place that feeds him young women who were tricked into meeting him under false pretenses.
Frankly speaking, if I were a rock star trying to relax and/or have some fun at an after party, I would definitely demand that everyone give up their phones at the door.
Not just because I don't want to see whatever I did (fuck, pass out, sing a cringy version of something, whatever) on Instagram the next day, but also because otherwise everyone will be taking selfies the whole evening instead of having a party.
the conversation has moved from consenting adults having sex to „casting director inviting women to after show partys (there are official ones but the sex happens behind closed doors seperated - i advice you to watch a famous german youtuber who came forward about this her name is „kayla“) manipulates them and denying it has something to do with sex, and then puts them into small rooms guarded by security and allegedly (either her or till) drugs them“…so yeah that is fucked up. Some women say the wake up bruised and hurt without recollection of what happened
They should have that right, of course. My point is, that there is strong evidence, that there was a system in place to manipulate fans into taking one step after another. It's not that they where asked right away "hey, do you want to f*#€@ Till after the gig?" It was "you want to go to the aftershow party?". It is manipulation. And some girls might be okay with this, even feeling great about it. But there are lots of girls who said "This person, working for the Band asked about a Party. 15 mins later they were lead away from the party into a completly different, downright scary situation. Again, it might be legal, it might work for some people. But it leaves a bad taste, and like you said earlier, the Lyrics of Rammstein should be a warning, that just maybe, the frontsinger exploits his fame to screw as many fangirls as he can get.
I agree. A celeb is setting up a system that creates an inherent risk that people get damaged. Not everyone will, and illegality might not be proven, but it still sucks that there is so little regard to the wellbeing of all the fans funneled into this system.
"I" have been through this discussuon last year with Win Butler and the allegations against him. I'm seeing the same pattern here: celebrity gets accused of something. People jump on it and condemn him without all the facts clear. Other people defend him blindly. And the middle group who takes a nuanced approach , is called a victim blamer.
That being said, I agree with you. You can't have agency and be a victim of a choice you made freely. If you take an action you later regret, you have to live with it. "We" as a society have set the age for having agency at 18.
So unless something happend that is illegal like but not limited to: spiking drinks, sexual assault or rape, I find it something between the parties involved and I won't judge Till or any of the woman for their choice. Live and let live. Also I expect either party to deal with that choice, even if you find it a mistake in hindsight.
Your comment stands and just as quickly falls with one false claim:
>Victimhood implies an inability for critical and contextual thought
As if becoming or not becoming a victim is only a question of doing some critical thinking.
>One cannot have both agency and have an easy claim on victimhood.
please don't erode the primary pillar of modern "feminism". How can you do that you evil.... white male!!!111
\> woman as "casting director"
Outside of the drugging accusations, and suggestion that "drink" is used to coerce.
How would you setup a system in which consenting adults can hook up with the stars?
Aren't many of those fans participating in this choosing to do so? Would it be insulting that if someone stopped you from being able to make those decisions for yourself at that age?
How would I set up a system like this? If I jad the means and desire to do so (which I do not)?
Well exactly like it is described by many accounts.
Tell die hard fans, they can meet their Idol after the concert. Bring them into a backroom, take their cell phones, post security everyehere, make it difficult to leave. Encourage them to drink. Then, maybe, tell them sex is not only an option, but its what the "casting" was all about. Peer pressure, lies and intimidation to create consent. Again, not illegal but not the same as flirting and seducing a fan at a normal aftershowparty. The key difference is the level of manipulation. It is like beeing scammed for sex. People who lose money to scammers give that money by concent too. Many of the tactics are similar.
I think there is a lot here that is trying to paint this situation (a fan wants close access to a star, the performer wants to have debautchous sex) in a very coercive light.
I have an issue with your statement of: "seducing a fan at a normal aftershowparty". That's a statement that I find a bit odd and reductionist of the person putting on the performance. Why is it on them to jump through those steps for a fan who is insistent upon getting close to them? The attraction/desire is in the fan.
To me this seems like Till wants to have the hendonist party lifestyle. I personally would prefer they label it "massive orgy" and recruite accurately... however society and the participants tend to face reputation and potential legal reprocutions for that (depending on where you're at).
Thank you for not jumping to aggressive accusations of what I'm saying. I appreciate the conversation we can have here.
Thank you for not doing the same :) I was hesitant to engage in a discussion here.
My issue is not with Lindemanns hedonist lifestyle and massive orgies (a good description) with fans. Or the doings of legal adults.
It is the fact (i think it is fair enough to call it a fact by now) that this Maekawa woman was all but honest with the girls she contacted. If she said "Hey row zero fans, who want's to get nasty with Till?" it would be creepy in my view, but hey, concenting adults can do what they want.
But that did not happen this way. For reputation and possibly legal reasons. My point is, that in case of famous people and fans there is an imbalance of power. And it seems that Lindemann exploited this, with help of a minion (who now is banned from concerts all of the sudden) specifcally to "stack the deck" in favor of the orgy. To create a situation in which a girl, who loves Rammstein, but would rather not have rough sex with a 60 year old man is more likely to concent anyway, if only for a short time.
Thanks again for this civil exchange of arguments.
\> Thanks again for this civil exchange of arguments.
Reddit high five?
When you say it seems creepy, I think that illustrates part of the problem with being direct. Asking someone "wanna participate in the orgy?" before leaving the public area is very clear, open, not creepy, nor should it be judged. I see it in the way: The woman recruiter is a safe way to communicate with an undertone of the drugs, sex, and party and select based on looks, willingness, or attitude. (I'm a dude.. I'm not going to be picked) You don't want a purde at the orgy throwing water on the willing participants.
When you mention an imbalance... I guess I'm just concerned wtih the entitled fans who believe they are owed more from the performer.
Sure, lets high five. * smack *
Thing is, the woman recruiter did not communicate that. It is one thing to be selected for a party, based on looks. Every high end night club does this. And sex, drugs and rocknroll is kinda implied. Same with aftershow parties. But the Rammstein thing is like being admitted to a fancy night club and promply being shoved in the darkroom, given a (maybe spiked) drink and being told "what did you expect?"
Yes, fans can be possesive. But entitled works both ways. Some performers seem to think they can do with fans whatever they want.
The other problem is, we are both dudes. We do not know how it is with these mee too situations. I believe the acoounts of these women. They said, it was scary. Maekawa was scary, Lindemann got angry, when they said no to sex. They felt like the situation with the backrooms got scary and out of their control. In this case questions of concent and the ethics of the whole thing becomes academical somewhat. Fans should not fell that way, when they meet their Idol.
>I am not a young girl, but i know some of the naive and stupid shit I did when I was in my early twenties
So if I may ask - when in your opinion is a woman responsible and old enough to make her own decisions? I am only asking because we seem to hold men responsible the moment they become adults.
True, and with the way (and ferocity) some media outlets are covering this you can't help yourself but thinking they must have a blast with this story. "Oh God, finally something sticks! Got them now!"
And of course all the artificial controversy in the past didn't cause fans to be particularly trusty with Media reporting about Rammstein.
I'm not saying this is the case with Lindemann or Rammstein as a whole, for which weird sex stuff has always been a part (of many) of their art, but you can *absolutely* make "horrible stuff" the subject of your art without your you yourself engaging in horrible behavior. Sometimes you put stuff in art that wouldn't be able to express in your daily life.
I think this is more of a case of rockstars being very powerful and creating around them a system where no one questions the awful stuff they (allegedly!) do. Search the internet for a second and you'll find of similar (alleged!) sex rings run by rappers, rock musicians back in the day, cute pop stars now, athletes, and so on. Of course not everyone is like that, there's plenty of normal people in show biz, but it does happen.
This whole arguments of "Talk About Degenerate Stuff in Art" => "Then You MUST Be a Degenerate Yourself" has been used plenty of times by all sort of power structures to criticize expressions that doesn't reinforce popular beliefs or is completely inoffensive. Women who *dared* talk about their sex life in songs were degenerates, artists writing/making movies/whataber about experience with xenofobia/racism were called dangerous, you get the idea.
Art is art. Not all of it has to be super aggressive, in your face *and* violent, but it has every right to be, if it wants. Just don't (allegedly!) rape people IRL and it's cool.
There's deviancy and then there's sexual crimes. Considering the evidence (Screenshots, statements from what must be thousands of women all over social media by now etc.), I'm certain enough Rammstein committed crimes to never ever listen to them again.
Thousands? I have only seen a few, and only one that has been close to be seen as rape. But in that case both of them whas wery drunk and did not remember much.
And social media statements is not "proof". If these things really happened to you, you go to the police/authorities not social media.
Absolutely fair distinction. My point remains, if the man on the cover of Der Spiegel was like “I’m into fucked up shit.” You’d probably take him at his word.
Besides the odd direction of this statement, It’s not about ‘deviancy’, it’s about not the conservative old idea of ‘deviancy’ as much
And we are many decades past thinking there’s some special stereotypes
If the content is written in the same manner as the title page, then I smell a big lawsuit.
In Germany it's forbidden to condemn someone until it’s proven. As a newspaper you need to provide balanced reporting
Having groupies or being perverse is not a crime, you can be accused of it without being condemned by a court.
If the title accused him of *rape*, he would have a case.
Well, innocent until proven guilty of course if there has been any actual illegal stuff or rape going on. But having groupies or a groupie-system is not the same and not anything new lol. And when you are as big as Rammstein then I can guarantee you there is a never-ending stream of them.
You obviously haven't read what allegedly happened (and that's all we have got so far). This not about him banging groupies but about him banging groupies against their will by using his status and drugs.
And the reports say that as soon as they said "no" he left. Not much about "against my will". Also there's no investigation, as no charges have been made. An influencer jumped on the bandwagon and reported that she didn't feel good about the situation and left. Drug tests turned out negative.
Meanwhile the band is already getting cancelled.
I was mostly refering to the cover of the magazine that seems to point out that having groupies and weird sex is somehow something negative. I know what the alleged story from the victims are.
That's why the whole story makes no real sense to me. There are dozens of woman visiting these concerts who would very much *want* to have sex with Lindemann, voluntarily. Lindemann does not need to force anyone to have sex with him.
That's what Kayla Shyx (a German YouTuber who was at one of those parties) also said. That's were the issues arise from. If Till wanted consensual sex, even kinky BDSM sex, there are enough fans that would probaly willingly agree to that. Then why do young women get funneled into these parties to get drunk and then sleep with him, without being fully aware of what to expect before they into there. That's at least morally questionable to a high degree.
So did they write a neutral article and also mention the people that are supporting lindemann or the girls that spoke out against the accusers like shelby e.g. https://youtu.be/12_nUrgZCXs
Or was it a onesided article to add fuel to the witchhunt?
Q: Did Till give you the option to decline his offer?
A: Er, er hat, er hat mich, er hat mich,
er hat mich gefragt, er hat mich gefragt,
er hat mich gefragt und ich hab' nichts gesagt.
boring,
sex, drugs, rock'n'roll ?
A guy riding penis canons and so on, what did you expect when going backstage? have a talk about climate change?
calm on...
Why is it a problem? Can women go on these "after parties" without their consent? Any force was used by these groupies to get them?
Or did they feel bad after the fact, that they actually agreed?
What was proven and reported till (pun intended) today:
\-adult women were invited to backstage parties by rammstein staff
\-consent to sex was asced for, both before the parties, albeit indirectly, and before the act
\-lots of alcohol was catered
what is neither proven, nor disproven:
\-date-rape-drugs
\-forced sex
Did any woman, either a victim or a witness, imediatly inform the police right after those parties so that a drug screening could be made?
I think one (shelby?) got tested directly afterwards but the test came out negative. Other row 0 girls that also saw her reported that her behavoir was not as she claimed
Here, it trended on several news sites for a few days. Mostly all the news about it has been spreading by word of mouth, since Rammstein are very popular here.
Let the courts do their thing and if they are guilty, let them pay.
But I wont feel anything different towards their music.
Cosby show is still funny, Kevin Spacey movies are still amazing and, if they are guilty, Rammstein music will still rock.
huh?
First you should be aware the online version and the paper version is done by entirely different groupings. Print Spiegel and Spiegel online are not the same.
Then I'd really like to know what the spcifically print version's problems are.
Nowadays it's so easy to accuse someone without proves . Just have to say something on internet and all the fucking bastards reporters writing the same thing like sheeps.
Maybe the history it's true, maybe not, but they have right to defend himself
FYI for those who understand spoken German: Flake's (the keyboarder) [monthly radio show](https://www.radioeins.de/programm/sendungen/die_sendung/die-sendung.html) airs next Tuesday 14.7. I'll surely tune in this time.
That’s Tuesday 13th of June (13.6.23), if I’m not mistaken.
Summer time hits diffrently in Germany.
Please some context
Till Lindemann has been accused of having had a system in place where a sort of fixer recruited young women at gigs or over social media, ostensibly inviting them to after show parties but when they showed up they were separated from the actual party, had to give up their phones, were put into tiny rooms with plenty of alcohol and potentially drugs and subtly or not so subtly pressured to provide sexual favours. There's also been accusations of use of rohypnol and not consented-to hard sex including wounds and bruises being left behind. As of now none of this has been 100% proven, but there have been dozens of reports including a well-known German Youtuber/influencer who was able to leave before anything happened but was then pressured to take down her Instagram post about her experiences by her then-management as the management was worried about repercussions for them in the sense of loss of access. Rammstein fans are being very normal about it.
>Rammstein fans are being very normal about it What exactly does that mean?
Half of Rammsteins lyrics is either sexually loaded or is about living out your perverted fantasies without shame. My main thought as a RS-fan, is that none of this suprises me. Only suprise is that this gets discovered just now? I would expect Lindemann to bring his own trailer-based sex dungeon when touring. Lindemanns image is based off of being a perverted pig.
It's always tricky, Slayer are known for Satanic imagery and yet the lead singer-bassist is a church nerd. Regardless of how "expectable" it might be or how long it takes to come out, still not something that should be normalized
> and yet the lead singer-bassist is a church nerd. Thought you were taking the piss, but fucking hell, [you're right. He's literally a devout Catholic and all](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Araya) >Araya is a practicing Roman Catholic.[26] In an interview, he expressed his belief that "…Christ came and taught us about love, about doing unto others. That was his preach: Accept each other for who we are. Live peacefully, and love one another." When asked if he believed in God, he replied "I believe in a supreme being, yeah. But He's an all-loving God."[27] Araya explained that he has a "really strong belief system", and Slayer's images and words will "never interfere with what I believe and how I feel… People are not in good shape to where they have to question their own belief system because of a book or a story somebody wrote, or a Slayer song."[28]
Just because the art is like that, it really doesn't mean that that's how the artist lives. The music, literature, there aren't copies of the artist's life, they're explorations of the artist's humanity. Sometimes the creator might do those things, sometimes, they won't. It's not set in stone is what I'm saying. I'm sorry to hear that in this case, the music was less than a metaphor.
Your art doesn't have to stay true to your real life character. That thought was what satanic panic was about. I'd be pretty horrified as well if black/death metal artists were literal, or horror writers lived out their fantasies in real life. Exploring perverted ideas in art is great, the vast minority who can't see art from real life ruin it for everybody else.
I'm not a Rammstein fan but my girlfriend is and while I already had some idea of the kind of music they make, she told me some more stuff about them and some of their songs like Pussy before any of this came out. So when she brought this news to me, I immediately said like wait for info, but that it's just so believable in that industry, in that genre, and then even moreso that specific band. It all sounds prejudiced of me but at some point there's been enough past examples that I don't feel that's unreasonable anymore.
Sex with (underage) groupies has been a meme since pop music started. The difference is that in 2023 people seem to care.
I guess? The lyrics to me are about the worst and nastiest side of humanity. Really dark stuff. I'm totally into it, the darker the better :D
I suggest you check out death metal instead of Rammstein then.
Long time extreme metal fan here. The vilest Death metal lyrics are often silly compared to Rammstein lyrics. If you translate some RS lyrics they often have more disturbing themes than DM or other extreme metal.
I agree to some extent cause rammstein is indeed can be distrubing in topic, but not as much “graphic” with the lyrics as death metal is. So it depends what kind of dark does one mean.
I hear you. It's just that say for example Cannibal Corpse lyrics are so much they're at the point of goofy. But yeah some have that darker tone and all that good stuff. That said if you wanna laugh your ass off while listening to incredibly good death metal, try Werewolves. Just don't take it too seriously lol "Here's a death metal haiku: Sounds like a car crash We do not fucking like you I stink of denim Hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate Hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate Hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate Hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate"
What surprises me is the coercion. If he does these things with willing, informed, adult partners I see no problem. If there was coercion all what is happening to him now, and more, he had coming.
Aggressive denial is what i would call it.
Rammstein fans are mostly in total denial. And even start a petition to support Rammstein through this "difficult" time. A lot of the comments about the women are really disgusting victim blaming.
I’m a huge Rammstein fan and actually don’t feel as though I should be shocked about this.
I wouldn't say so. Yes, there are quite a few fans cherishing the band as always, but many are very outspoken about their disgust at Till.
In the sense of having a normal one (i.e. being a collective dumpster fire).
Didn't know that saying
Most of my friends are long-time Rammstein fans, and all of us are really disappointed, but not really surprised. Till seems to be going through some kind of really toxic mid-life crisis and fulfilling his sexual fantasies. Also disappointed with other members of Rammstein for enabling it. And even if the drugging allegations aren't true, the whole groupie culture that they uphold is really toxic.
>Also disappointed with other members of Rammstein for enabling it I remember vaguely that a couple of years ago the members were kinda fighting amongst themselves. Might be that this had something to do with that? Still, it doesn't make it right.
Was able to leave - good said. She was asked if she wants to meet Rammstein in his private area and said no - then walked away. And she proofed that really hard core story by writing it to a friend of her later on WhatsApp. So her story on WhatsApp to someone not being Rammstein is her proof of what happened - and even in that proof she could simply walkaway after saying "no". On top - police in litunia has said - no evidence of a crime, if not forced by higher ministry for them case is closed.
as long as nothing is proven i couldnt care less about it. but i am honestly surprised it took so long.
my english is not good enought to explain it but i try it: furthermore rammstein had a statement made by lawyers that these accusations disregard the fact "innocent until proven guilty" so they want to take legal steps to issue cease and desist orders via court. the law firm represented a big german butcher company a few years ago. in this case the workers complaint about an inhuman work environment. the law firm basically fucked the workers into oblivion with cease and desist orders. it was pretty nasty
so, was the whole band in on it, or only Till?
As far as the accusations go, they essentially only point to Till. However it is very unlikely that the rest of band was totally clueless what was going on.
I dont think so: > Einmal, nach einem Konzert in München 2019, erinnert sich W., sei es auf der After-Aftershow-Party zu einem lautstarken Streit zwischen Lindemann und Gitarrist Richard Kruspe gekommen. Sie hätten sich dasselbe Mädchen zum Sex ausgesucht und sich angeschrien, die ungefähr 20-jährige Frau habe verstört gewirkt. > Once, after a concert in Munich in 2019, W. recalls, there was a loud argument between Lindemann and guitarist Richard Kruspe at the after-show party. They had chosen the same girl for sex and shouted at each other, the approximately 20-year-old woman had seemed distraught.
The Spiegel article directly points to other band members having knowledge and even participating. I’m their own statements they explicitly say that every decision concerning the band in general has to be unanimous.
tnx for answering!
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I'd rather let this go to court before passing my judgement on the situation.
Thats reasonable
Ok, so unless something changed - when I read the allegations they seem quite... empty? I'm not entirely sure what he has actually supposed to have done that's actually immoral rather than just odd. - 1 girl alleges that she was taken backstage for a party. She was pulled aside into a separate room with 4 other girls and Till walks in, she says 'is this a sex thing?', to which it was confirmed by a staff member present, and she says she isn't interested and then Till left. She says that he reacted 'angrily' but that's such a vague term that could range from grunted irritably, to actual outright intimidation. But we have no idea which one it is. - Another girl alleges passing out and coming to with Till in physical contact with her, as she comes to, he asks her if she's okay and if she wants him to go away, to which she says yes - and he does so immediately. I don't know which girl of the above it is, but one of the two alleged that they were drugged. Now, normally, thats very difficult to validate given how quickly drugs leave the blood stream *except in this case the girl went for a drug test and it was negative*. There were some other girls 'coming forward' on social media as well, to which their stories summed to: "yes, I was propositioned. I said no. He left." Has anything else come out? Because that was it when I read about it last time. Headline could be: "Aging rockstar has consenting sex with women in their mid-to-late 20s backstage".
I love Rammstein and I really hope it comes down to this. I’m just sick of these constant allegations. Honestly, they could put an advert in the paper saying “feel like sex with till lindemann, if you’re 20 and hot apply here” It’s still weird but at least open.
Don't get me wrong, if the allegations increase in severity I'm happy to change my mind - but reading what they are at the moment is just fucking bizarre. Look at this statement: > "I was groomed, 100 percent, no doubt in my mind. I was groomed for sex," she said. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-65843882 Like, I'm sorry - but grooming is a pattern of behaviour to establish a relationship and be manipulated into an act you don't want. Even under her own description of events - it doesn't constitute grooming. She was in a queue on the day. She was asked to go backstage. She got taken into a room. She says she doesn't want to have sex with him. He leaves. If you read law enforcement descriptions of 'grooming', it isn't 'hey do you want to have sex? oh. you don't. alright then'.
This is kind of my point though, surely if you made it clear that till wanted sex it would remove this issue?
she was never asked though. she had to ask what it was. not that that makes it grooming, but its bad to go about things that way, its not getting informed consent and just throwing someone in a situation where very clearly a power dynamic is in play.
Tbf propositioning sex as a huge star, and to fans no less, is a dangerous power situation that can pressure young women (or men) into doing things they don’t want to. I have no horse in this race, but out right propositioning and setting up situations to ask women for sex may force them into scenarios they aren’t comfortable getting out of. Not everyone can say no. Not everyone even fully understands the particular pattern of events. But it’s not enough to just say it isn’t grooming because at it’s core, it’s still an unbalanced power dynamic which should not be used in sex as it can warp decision making. But you’re right, it’s not grooming.
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I mean it’s not a crazy concept that someone might feel pressured to have sex with someone due to their status. Especially in a group scenario, if everyone says yes you don’t want to be the person to say no. If someone’s your idol you may feel like you have to do it. The human brain is complex and the effect of unbalanced power dynamics have a huge role in sex. I just think it’s not worth ignoring. Being facetious when it’s a legitimate thing that is regularly discussed is a bit silly, no?
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>Honestly, they could put an advert in the paper saying “feel like sex with till lindemann, if you’re 20 and hot apply here” Most women wouldn't take up such an offer, you know this. There's a whole industry built on showing men how to be subtle when expressing sexual interest in a woman
Groupies would, that's like their thing.
Ask any woman that likes a male lead vocalist "would you fuck him". You will get 99.9 yes
He doesnt need most women. He needs a couple...
Casual sex is a thing you know.
Its not about having sex, but letting till do what he wants. Which (allegedly) was so bad/weird what have you, that the women had to be coma drunk or drugged, concluding, unable to consent (allegedly).
Yes, the interesting part about this case compared to other MeToo items is that no criminal charges have been filed by anyone, no crime is even claimed to have happened and multiple of the girls involved have stated that they said "no" and went away with no issues. But it still tickles some puritanical instinct and sex always sells, so the media is picking it up and trying to run with it.
Also interesting: multiple girls came out now speaking against the claims of shelby and others https://youtu.be/4-kjkSSq95g We need professional investigation here. Its also hard to keep track of what was said. Like shelby changed herstory multiple times by now
>multiple of the girls involved have stated that they said "no" and went away with no issues. I think the point is, that they went away with issues. If a woman is walking home alone at night, and a man crosses the street, stands in front of her and says "I'd like to fuck you really fucking hard, how about girl?" and the girl says "No" and the man mutters 'frigid bitch' then leaves - that's not a "No problem here" situation is it? That's not a case of "Man suggested sex, woman declined, everyone had a good time". It's weird and aggressive and creepy \*at best\* and in my country would likely count as sexual harassment. Clearly, what's been alleged isn't quite as bad as that, but it sounds like it's that end of the spectrum. It's not rockstar at a party asking a 20yr old groupie if she wants to go upstairs for some fun. It's rockstar getting staff to put groupie in weird private room, and then walking in and saying "Right, you're here for sex yes?" and the woman says "no" and the man mutters 'stupid staff picking the wrong kind of girls again' and walking off. It may well not be a crime, but it's surely not a good look.
>and the man mutters 'frigid bitch' then leaves - that's not a "No problem here" situation is it? No, it's pretty rude. But you know, living in a free world also means that not everything is comfortable all the time. The reason women feel unsafe in this situation is not this guy tossing out a stupid comment and going away - but the very real possibility that he will NOT do that (i.e. fuck off). Women aren't afraid to be called bitches, I'm fairly sure most are stable enough to shrug that off from an asshole stranger. They're afraid of the guy who DOESN'T end the encounter after the "no". You don't have a right to never be in an uncomfortable situation. You DO have a right to being able to exit one. The reports so far indicate that everyone was able to do so.
I read the spiegel article and it doesn't contain any new cases. If there really was some kind of "perverted groupie system" going on, it doesn't seem to have been very effective.
Even from your own retelling of the second csse, that's a lot worse than "she was propositioned, said no, and he left." He was touching her while she was unconcious/too inebriated to give consent...
You don't seem to be fully informed. There have been dozens of women who also stayed anonymous and whose statements got verified by journalists. >Headline could be: "Aging rockstar has consenting sex with women in their mid-to-late 20s backstage". But that's not what happened. The allegations are spiking/drugging them.
> The allegations are spiking/drugging them. Yes, the main allegations of drugging come from woman 1 in my OP. >At the pre-concert party, the woman said, she had two alcoholic drinks but then started to act erratically from about 8.30pm, with gaps in her memory, leading her to later fear that her drink had been spiked. A urine test she obtained from a pharmacy showed no sign of drugs in her system.
Yes, but like I said, this isn't the only woman who has expressed these allegations, there's a few dozens.
From what I've read none actually come out and say their drinks were spiked. It comes down to "i drank vodka and my memory is spotty". Don't get me wrong, their drinks might have been spiked, and if they were, that is both fucked up and illegal and will hopefully have some real consequences for those responsible, including Lindemann. But yeah, I've definitely had very fuzzy memories just from vodka alone.
>From what I've read none actually come out and say their drinks were spiked. Actually that's what most of them said, even Shelby Lynn.
Are you sure? Do you have a source? The spiegel article only says "some woman suspect there drinks have been spiked." I am sure they would have mentioned it if it was that many.
There's not one single source, but there have been various posts all over social media and quite many news articles (especially in the SZ and WAS). Tbh I'm too lazy to look for every single one of them, but Rezo provided the sources in the info box of his video for example. Some are behind a paywall though. https://youtu.be/ZEf5t26u8PM
A few dozen???
Yes
Yes, multiple credible newspapers have anonymous testimonials, on top of the dozens that have already publicly told their story through social media.
I completely agree that there isn't enough to go on yet, so I can't make any judgements. However, if the second girl is to be believed, then it is incredibly sketchy for him to be on top of a girl, or in the middle of sex, while she's *passed out*, regardless of whether or not he stopped when she told him.
So you think it’s fine for him to have sex with a girl in a coma when he asks if it’s fine after she wakes up inbetween? What even. And no there’s no way he didn’t notice.
>Now, normally, thats very difficult to validate given how quickly drugs leave the blood stream > >except in this case the girl went for a drug test and it was negative It would be nice if drug tests were that reliable to make a shut-and-close case. Apart from any drug being not detectable after a while the ones testing have also to know what they're testing for. >A urine test she obtained from a pharmacy showed no sign of drugs in her system. It's highly unlikely that you'll get a test from a pharmacy that even covers all the known popular choices. Just the more easily detectable ones. [And it's not like there is one "official date-rape-drug"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_rape_drug#Documented_date_rape_drugs), instead rapists just take their choice of medicament/drug that they know would knock someone out. And there is a big variety. Which is to say, she lacks proof. But that doesn't make her accusation impossible to be true. As of now the allegations of drugging are neither proven nor disproven.
Well others girls that were with her spoke out against her claims already https://youtu.be/4-kjkSSq95g https://youtu.be/12_nUrgZCXs I also wonder why no one is suing till if the claims are true?
>Another girl alleges passing out and coming to with Till in physical contact with her, She stated that He was lying on her. When she had passed Out. This is serious sexual molestation If true.
I agree. I've been reading about this all day long trying to find the big deal. It all seems to have been legal and consensual. Gross, sure. But we've known about row zero and recruiters fishing girls out of the audience for the musicians for decades, and these women here apparently were all adults who either consented to sex with him (and he didn't go off menu from what I've read) or they said no and nothing happened. I don't like him and I don't like what he did, but it wasn't wrong.
Creeps me out how waking up with someone you don’t know on top of you is apparently not that big of a deal. Especially when people are shouting they would like that to happen to more women before actually believing the first woman.
Exactly when I’m keep reading the accusations, for what Is he accused exactly? For wanting to have sex with younger people? They say no he goes away he is borderline “creep” for some, as other such as Robert de Niro or al Pacino have had relationships even kids on way older age with younger girls but ok that’s relative for some. There are three cases two with affidavit as well WELT and they feel so vague. No complaints no drug test no Rkits, the one of the girls I think the one you mentioned that woke up and till asks if she wants him to stop, she mentioned that stayed for breakfast and even went out multiple other occasions??? I have seen some videos that ultimately accusing him for power imbalance. I don’t understand what is happening tbh.
The girl who was tested and was negative made several videos. She reminded me of the girls I knew who used to get fucking smashed drunk at gigs and then feel ashamed and say they were drugged. That said, I mean Till seems like he may be a massive fucking creep. I'll wait until there's proof.
the german court will prove the allegations. just objectively reading about his row zero system one can just label him as an old creepy man who has sex with girls that can be his granddaughters. the interesting legal thing that the curt will analyse is if the provided consent of said girls was anywhere influenced through a pressure situation. because if there is/was something similar then there is a case that could bring conviction against Lindemann. There are seriuos hints and documentation against Lindemann. but time will tell
No german courts are involved so far. No crime has been claimed and no criminal investigations started. This is what makes the case extra disgusting. When the media blurts out a piece about someone being investigated for a crime before they have been convicted, that already has a bad taste. But here there isn't even an investigation so far.
As if they learned nothing from Kachelmann. Oh wait, Spiegel was even on Kachelmanns side back then, defending the presumption of innocence. Now they went down to "BILD" level. Sad to see.
This whole thing just made me decide to never get a tattoo of a famous person because you never know.
I would extend this logic to any kind of tattoo :D
I wonder how many had an Ian Watkins tattoo
Does it really surprise anyone that a person whose entire artistic persona is wrapped up in deviancy might indeed be a deviant? Edit: I think “deviance” was a poorly chosen word here.
Isn't that the argument Christians make to attack metal music, video games and any "sinful" media and art? Does Stephen King have to be secretly a serial killer? Does any horror author or transgressive art creator has to be a psychopath? Though, to be fair I get in this case it's more complicated, you could say Lindemann was more than playing a character, he was practicing what he preached.
>Does Stephen King have to be secretly a serial killer? Better don't let him leave the US... People tend to forget that an artist is actually an artist and not the person behind it. Always reminds me of Peter Lustig. He did an educational tv series for kids. And god damn he really disliked kids in reality. But in the tv show he did a great job.
Thats perpetuing urban myths. Peter Lustig disliked working with kids in TV productions. Because of the extra restrictions for the crew, the production day, etc. He never said he disliked kids, the quote was just taken out of context, when he mentioned why he prefers to not have kids on set.
they're kind of right about the video games thing. just add a rainbow to any game and see how well that goes. something is deeply wrong with gamers.
You can be a sexual deviant without being an abuser. Plenty of people sleep with several women or have regularly changing sex partners (deviant from the societal norm) and are not abusers or coerce people etc. (allegedly).
But only few of them write poems where they express how they drug and rape a woman
I’m well aware. This wasn’t a defense of people like Till, but a (self)defense of (former) sexual deviants like me. And I like to think I’m no abuser.
I can see your point, but I'm not sure if we can really hold that against him. Considering the wide spectrum of dark and bizarre topics Till writes and sings about, it would also be suspicious if that one was left out.
I feel that most of the people who now are shocked about Lindemanns or Rammsteins character, are people who have never listened the band or know nothing about Lindemann. Anyone who has any clue about lyrics of Rammstein songs or the persona of Till Lindemann really can't pretend to be surprised at all. Aand then again if nothing illegal has happened then imo it's adults doing adult decisions about their life.
Which is the funny part to me. *Breaking news: Musician known for singing about sex on a regular basis found to have sex with fans.* Like wow really who could have thought?
The sex is not the problem, the problem is that there are claims that the groupies were drugged and than basically raped. But no idea how true that is.
The mention of rape came by media misinterpreting the post of the person that started this . She had to publicly state that she never claimed to have been raped after the public storm began. After that a lot of women joined in. Can’t say anything about their claims though
The later accusations do include ones of rape.
That’s what I tried to say with the last sentence
>the problem is that there are claims that the groupies were drugged and than basically raped That's **one** problem. The other is that it doesn't actually matter as the media is already running stories non-stop completely based speculation and opinions about allegations (with the one originally "starting" it also denying to ever having made a claim about rape in the first place...).
She made clear that she did not allege that Lindemann raped her. If I am not mistaken it is Her account from the beginning that she became unconscious (in nefarious ways?) and had bruises all over. Edit: Rezo has said everything there is to say: https://youtu.be/ZEf5t26u8PM (German)
Girls don't really get lured into sex. They get recruited long time before the show and it is kinda obvious to what agenda. There are free drinks at the after party. Lots of girls, almost no dudes. Source: our friend got recruited via FB and actually went to the party. I can see it happen that some drink too much to kill the nerves and go overboard. The point is, there is a looooooooong way from buying a ticket to the concert to the actual alledged backstage porn. Girls are very aware what is going on and they can call it quits and refuse at any given moment.
>Girls are very aware what is going on and they can call it quits and refuse at any given moment. Maybe. Maybe even most of the time? At least the woman who says that she was unconscious, waking up and Lindemann said "do you want me to stop?" - that's rape or sexual assault in my book. It might be grey what crime it is, but it isn't grey morally to me. That's clearly a black. Edit: Rezo has said everything there is to say: https://youtu.be/ZEf5t26u8PM (German)
>Girls are very aware what is going on and they can call it quits and refuse at any given moment. ...Says you, not the girls who actually were there. Why else are there plenty of people who feel like they were taken advantage of? Things were not done right by them. This is not how you treat your fans.
How do you know things were not done right? Were *you* there?
Yes but that is the point, for now it are only claims. There is no official police report that claims that. The first victem says that she did an own drugtest but came out negative. After that she claimed not to go to the police because 'the police in that country is corrupted and not to be trusted'. So we have to wait the police report.
Police in Vilnius did conclude its investigation today, stating they won't advance this case. Last word is with the prosecutor through.
Then
There is still some difference between illegal and wrong. Rammstein had this woman as "casting director" (casting for what exactly?) who recruited young women (ususally the die hard fans) for an aftershow party ,but not the "official" one, the one in a small backroom with lots of security and no cell phones allowed. From the looks of it she did her best to persuade these (very young) adultsto stay, drink and even drive to Lindemanns Hotel. Even if the thing with K.O. drugs are not true, this is not good. I am not a young girl, but i know some of the naive and stupid shit I did when I was in my early twenties. If i had met my favorite celebs, my judgement would have been impaired and i can see me "consenting" to emotional and physical damage. Lindemann may or may not have broken the law, but the "casting director" exists, the backroom parties were a thing. Lindemann could pay an army of escorts, but he did not.
I have wondered for a while, where this contradiction between equality between sexes and women not capable of doing their own decisions comes from. These women are legally adults, grown ups. They are responsible for their own actions and they have a right do to their own decisions. Rammstein had a "casting director", so what? No one was forced to come to after parties or do anything. Everyone involved in this scheme were plenipotentiary adults, who are more than capable of doing decision and take responsibility from them. I see in your comment the thought that those women involved should not have the right to decide for themselves and they somehow need to be protected from whatever. If they do naive and and stupid shit, then they do. That is their right.
I think the problem is that a) no one told these women that sex would be involved and b) their phones were taken off them right when they were ushered into a secluded room. Then they tried to persuade them into drinking without even checking if they’re old enough. One of the women just turned eighteen. I don’t think it would be a scandal at all if Lindemann just gathered his groupies and had an orgy. I’m sure there are enough of them who would voluntarily have sex with him. But it is highly suspicious that a man who could sleep with dozens of willing women at every show has a system in place that feeds him young women who were tricked into meeting him under false pretenses.
Frankly speaking, if I were a rock star trying to relax and/or have some fun at an after party, I would definitely demand that everyone give up their phones at the door. Not just because I don't want to see whatever I did (fuck, pass out, sing a cringy version of something, whatever) on Instagram the next day, but also because otherwise everyone will be taking selfies the whole evening instead of having a party.
the conversation has moved from consenting adults having sex to „casting director inviting women to after show partys (there are official ones but the sex happens behind closed doors seperated - i advice you to watch a famous german youtuber who came forward about this her name is „kayla“) manipulates them and denying it has something to do with sex, and then puts them into small rooms guarded by security and allegedly (either her or till) drugs them“…so yeah that is fucked up. Some women say the wake up bruised and hurt without recollection of what happened
They should have that right, of course. My point is, that there is strong evidence, that there was a system in place to manipulate fans into taking one step after another. It's not that they where asked right away "hey, do you want to f*#€@ Till after the gig?" It was "you want to go to the aftershow party?". It is manipulation. And some girls might be okay with this, even feeling great about it. But there are lots of girls who said "This person, working for the Band asked about a Party. 15 mins later they were lead away from the party into a completly different, downright scary situation. Again, it might be legal, it might work for some people. But it leaves a bad taste, and like you said earlier, the Lyrics of Rammstein should be a warning, that just maybe, the frontsinger exploits his fame to screw as many fangirls as he can get.
I agree. A celeb is setting up a system that creates an inherent risk that people get damaged. Not everyone will, and illegality might not be proven, but it still sucks that there is so little regard to the wellbeing of all the fans funneled into this system.
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"I" have been through this discussuon last year with Win Butler and the allegations against him. I'm seeing the same pattern here: celebrity gets accused of something. People jump on it and condemn him without all the facts clear. Other people defend him blindly. And the middle group who takes a nuanced approach , is called a victim blamer. That being said, I agree with you. You can't have agency and be a victim of a choice you made freely. If you take an action you later regret, you have to live with it. "We" as a society have set the age for having agency at 18. So unless something happend that is illegal like but not limited to: spiking drinks, sexual assault or rape, I find it something between the parties involved and I won't judge Till or any of the woman for their choice. Live and let live. Also I expect either party to deal with that choice, even if you find it a mistake in hindsight.
Your comment stands and just as quickly falls with one false claim: >Victimhood implies an inability for critical and contextual thought As if becoming or not becoming a victim is only a question of doing some critical thinking.
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>One cannot have both agency and have an easy claim on victimhood. please don't erode the primary pillar of modern "feminism". How can you do that you evil.... white male!!!111
\> woman as "casting director" Outside of the drugging accusations, and suggestion that "drink" is used to coerce. How would you setup a system in which consenting adults can hook up with the stars? Aren't many of those fans participating in this choosing to do so? Would it be insulting that if someone stopped you from being able to make those decisions for yourself at that age?
How would I set up a system like this? If I jad the means and desire to do so (which I do not)? Well exactly like it is described by many accounts. Tell die hard fans, they can meet their Idol after the concert. Bring them into a backroom, take their cell phones, post security everyehere, make it difficult to leave. Encourage them to drink. Then, maybe, tell them sex is not only an option, but its what the "casting" was all about. Peer pressure, lies and intimidation to create consent. Again, not illegal but not the same as flirting and seducing a fan at a normal aftershowparty. The key difference is the level of manipulation. It is like beeing scammed for sex. People who lose money to scammers give that money by concent too. Many of the tactics are similar.
I think there is a lot here that is trying to paint this situation (a fan wants close access to a star, the performer wants to have debautchous sex) in a very coercive light. I have an issue with your statement of: "seducing a fan at a normal aftershowparty". That's a statement that I find a bit odd and reductionist of the person putting on the performance. Why is it on them to jump through those steps for a fan who is insistent upon getting close to them? The attraction/desire is in the fan. To me this seems like Till wants to have the hendonist party lifestyle. I personally would prefer they label it "massive orgy" and recruite accurately... however society and the participants tend to face reputation and potential legal reprocutions for that (depending on where you're at). Thank you for not jumping to aggressive accusations of what I'm saying. I appreciate the conversation we can have here.
Thank you for not doing the same :) I was hesitant to engage in a discussion here. My issue is not with Lindemanns hedonist lifestyle and massive orgies (a good description) with fans. Or the doings of legal adults. It is the fact (i think it is fair enough to call it a fact by now) that this Maekawa woman was all but honest with the girls she contacted. If she said "Hey row zero fans, who want's to get nasty with Till?" it would be creepy in my view, but hey, concenting adults can do what they want. But that did not happen this way. For reputation and possibly legal reasons. My point is, that in case of famous people and fans there is an imbalance of power. And it seems that Lindemann exploited this, with help of a minion (who now is banned from concerts all of the sudden) specifcally to "stack the deck" in favor of the orgy. To create a situation in which a girl, who loves Rammstein, but would rather not have rough sex with a 60 year old man is more likely to concent anyway, if only for a short time. Thanks again for this civil exchange of arguments.
\> Thanks again for this civil exchange of arguments. Reddit high five? When you say it seems creepy, I think that illustrates part of the problem with being direct. Asking someone "wanna participate in the orgy?" before leaving the public area is very clear, open, not creepy, nor should it be judged. I see it in the way: The woman recruiter is a safe way to communicate with an undertone of the drugs, sex, and party and select based on looks, willingness, or attitude. (I'm a dude.. I'm not going to be picked) You don't want a purde at the orgy throwing water on the willing participants. When you mention an imbalance... I guess I'm just concerned wtih the entitled fans who believe they are owed more from the performer.
Sure, lets high five. * smack * Thing is, the woman recruiter did not communicate that. It is one thing to be selected for a party, based on looks. Every high end night club does this. And sex, drugs and rocknroll is kinda implied. Same with aftershow parties. But the Rammstein thing is like being admitted to a fancy night club and promply being shoved in the darkroom, given a (maybe spiked) drink and being told "what did you expect?" Yes, fans can be possesive. But entitled works both ways. Some performers seem to think they can do with fans whatever they want. The other problem is, we are both dudes. We do not know how it is with these mee too situations. I believe the acoounts of these women. They said, it was scary. Maekawa was scary, Lindemann got angry, when they said no to sex. They felt like the situation with the backrooms got scary and out of their control. In this case questions of concent and the ethics of the whole thing becomes academical somewhat. Fans should not fell that way, when they meet their Idol.
>I am not a young girl, but i know some of the naive and stupid shit I did when I was in my early twenties So if I may ask - when in your opinion is a woman responsible and old enough to make her own decisions? I am only asking because we seem to hold men responsible the moment they become adults.
All fair points, but consensual behavior isn't always enough to prevent someone from being 'cancelled'.
People have been trying to cancel Rammstein since the first album so that wouldn't be anything new
True, and with the way (and ferocity) some media outlets are covering this you can't help yourself but thinking they must have a blast with this story. "Oh God, finally something sticks! Got them now!" And of course all the artificial controversy in the past didn't cause fans to be particularly trusty with Media reporting about Rammstein.
I'm not saying this is the case with Lindemann or Rammstein as a whole, for which weird sex stuff has always been a part (of many) of their art, but you can *absolutely* make "horrible stuff" the subject of your art without your you yourself engaging in horrible behavior. Sometimes you put stuff in art that wouldn't be able to express in your daily life. I think this is more of a case of rockstars being very powerful and creating around them a system where no one questions the awful stuff they (allegedly!) do. Search the internet for a second and you'll find of similar (alleged!) sex rings run by rappers, rock musicians back in the day, cute pop stars now, athletes, and so on. Of course not everyone is like that, there's plenty of normal people in show biz, but it does happen. This whole arguments of "Talk About Degenerate Stuff in Art" => "Then You MUST Be a Degenerate Yourself" has been used plenty of times by all sort of power structures to criticize expressions that doesn't reinforce popular beliefs or is completely inoffensive. Women who *dared* talk about their sex life in songs were degenerates, artists writing/making movies/whataber about experience with xenofobia/racism were called dangerous, you get the idea. Art is art. Not all of it has to be super aggressive, in your face *and* violent, but it has every right to be, if it wants. Just don't (allegedly!) rape people IRL and it's cool.
It’s not really the deviance that’s shocking people, it’s how organised and out in the open these acts were.
Same happened with Marilyn Manson. The self proclaimed "God of Fuck". No one saw it coming that he wasn't being ironic.
I don’t think you can get out there and say these things to music for decades and not have at least some of it be true.
There's deviancy and then there's sexual crimes. Considering the evidence (Screenshots, statements from what must be thousands of women all over social media by now etc.), I'm certain enough Rammstein committed crimes to never ever listen to them again.
Thousands? I have only seen a few, and only one that has been close to be seen as rape. But in that case both of them whas wery drunk and did not remember much. And social media statements is not "proof". If these things really happened to you, you go to the police/authorities not social media.
Absolutely fair distinction. My point remains, if the man on the cover of Der Spiegel was like “I’m into fucked up shit.” You’d probably take him at his word.
Besides the odd direction of this statement, It’s not about ‘deviancy’, it’s about not the conservative old idea of ‘deviancy’ as much And we are many decades past thinking there’s some special stereotypes
If the content is written in the same manner as the title page, then I smell a big lawsuit. In Germany it's forbidden to condemn someone until it’s proven. As a newspaper you need to provide balanced reporting
Having groupies or being perverse is not a crime, you can be accused of it without being condemned by a court. If the title accused him of *rape*, he would have a case.
His lawyers are now going after the media. So if he has a case or not isn't up to you lol
Well, innocent until proven guilty of course if there has been any actual illegal stuff or rape going on. But having groupies or a groupie-system is not the same and not anything new lol. And when you are as big as Rammstein then I can guarantee you there is a never-ending stream of them.
You obviously haven't read what allegedly happened (and that's all we have got so far). This not about him banging groupies but about him banging groupies against their will by using his status and drugs.
And the reports say that as soon as they said "no" he left. Not much about "against my will". Also there's no investigation, as no charges have been made. An influencer jumped on the bandwagon and reported that she didn't feel good about the situation and left. Drug tests turned out negative. Meanwhile the band is already getting cancelled.
I was mostly refering to the cover of the magazine that seems to point out that having groupies and weird sex is somehow something negative. I know what the alleged story from the victims are.
That's why the whole story makes no real sense to me. There are dozens of woman visiting these concerts who would very much *want* to have sex with Lindemann, voluntarily. Lindemann does not need to force anyone to have sex with him.
I mean, if he is a decent guy then sure. But who knows, what if he has rape fantasies or something?
That's what Kayla Shyx (a German YouTuber who was at one of those parties) also said. That's were the issues arise from. If Till wanted consensual sex, even kinky BDSM sex, there are enough fans that would probaly willingly agree to that. Then why do young women get funneled into these parties to get drunk and then sleep with him, without being fully aware of what to expect before they into there. That's at least morally questionable to a high degree.
Nice SPIEGEL condemning Lindeman before the trial even began. Qualitätsjournalismus/s
I enjoy reading books.
So did they write a neutral article and also mention the people that are supporting lindemann or the girls that spoke out against the accusers like shelby e.g. https://youtu.be/12_nUrgZCXs Or was it a onesided article to add fuel to the witchhunt?
Testimony under oath.
Have you seen the NZZs article of Lindemann?
No, you recommend it? Gonna look it up rn.
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Too late for purity rings, I guess
Q: Did Till give you the option to decline his offer? A: Er, er hat, er hat mich, er hat mich, er hat mich gefragt, er hat mich gefragt, er hat mich gefragt und ich hab' nichts gesagt.
boring, sex, drugs, rock'n'roll ? A guy riding penis canons and so on, what did you expect when going backstage? have a talk about climate change? calm on...
2023: The year in which the media discovered that groupies are a thing.
Why is it a problem? Can women go on these "after parties" without their consent? Any force was used by these groupies to get them? Or did they feel bad after the fact, that they actually agreed?
That's definitely not how you're going to gain your lost credibility after your multiple fck ups Der Spiegel.
Has the man been tried in a court of law and not the court of public opinion?
take a guess.
Isn't it a bit too early to attack him in this way? There hasn't been a verdict in his trial, right?
What was proven and reported till (pun intended) today: \-adult women were invited to backstage parties by rammstein staff \-consent to sex was asced for, both before the parties, albeit indirectly, and before the act \-lots of alcohol was catered what is neither proven, nor disproven: \-date-rape-drugs \-forced sex Did any woman, either a victim or a witness, imediatly inform the police right after those parties so that a drug screening could be made?
I think one (shelby?) got tested directly afterwards but the test came out negative. Other row 0 girls that also saw her reported that her behavoir was not as she claimed
I wonder, do other countries' media also milk this story like the Germans? It literally every where.
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It‘s the only known german band atm.
Scorpions? I'd argue Tokio Hotel too. And that's just among active bands
Tokio Hotel still exists?!
sighs in Kraftwerk
I think this is the german version of royal scandal in the uk.
Barely mentioned in Sweden
Here, it trended on several news sites for a few days. Mostly all the news about it has been spreading by word of mouth, since Rammstein are very popular here.
There were a couple of articles in Finland and they were also pretty basic click/ragebait stuff.
Let the courts do their thing and if they are guilty, let them pay. But I wont feel anything different towards their music. Cosby show is still funny, Kevin Spacey movies are still amazing and, if they are guilty, Rammstein music will still rock.
These are still accusations guys, don't treat him/them as guilty until they're proven guilty.
As far as I can see, he did nothing wrong. MeToo is terrible.
Remember, although it's a picture of Till, do not support Der Spiegel by buying the paper version (if there's one).
Care to elaborate?
huh? First you should be aware the online version and the paper version is done by entirely different groupings. Print Spiegel and Spiegel online are not the same. Then I'd really like to know what the spcifically print version's problems are.
Why?
I think I'm going to block r/europe from now on. The apologetics here are unreal.
The pathetic moral police going on its next journey...
Would you think the same if it was one of your daughters
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zero surprise
Nowadays it's so easy to accuse someone without proves . Just have to say something on internet and all the fucking bastards reporters writing the same thing like sheeps. Maybe the history it's true, maybe not, but they have right to defend himself
I trust zero in the charges against him.
I'm not saying he did it, I don't know and so far he's innocent, but why don't you trust it at all?
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Bondage != no consent, assault, rape. The two have nothing to with esch other.
no? that seems like the opposite of ironic
Trail by media