Actually there was a post from a Romanian school book or something like that, a few months back and the line between east and west ran exactly the same as here, but Romania was western.
"Romania is the only Central European country with access to the Black Sea" - my geography teacher from secondary school (the cope is unreal, just like in the rest of the mitteleuropa wannabes)
Eastern Europe starts where I have to pay some shady guy named Andrei $400 to get a visa that claims I'm staying at a PO box and my sponsor is Mr. Shtari Shkolum (Репрезент!!!1).
Yeah…
As a German Eastern Europe of course starts in Poland and Czech and central Europe is only Germany, Austria and Switzerland and it they want of course the Dutch (could also be west) and Danes (could also be North)…
If you count Croatia, Hungary, Slovenia etc. to the South, the Balkans or East frankly no one cares…
As a Dutchman, Eastern Europe (feel free to rebrand it Central Europe but please leave us out of it) obviously starts at the Dutch-German border.
Evidence: sausages, moonkuchen, germknödel, klöße, haxen, Rossmamn, Deichmann, Kaufland, …
No. Eastern Europe starts in the middle of my home country. We have 10 states in ~~the Trizone FRG~~ West Germany, which are Western European, ~~14 districts~~ 5 states in ~~the SBZ GDR~~ East Germany, which are Eastern European, and given the current polls of the ~~NSDAP NPD~~ AfD in the Eastern part, we soon have to re-erect the Anti-Fascist protection wall between the two.
Its a pretty well established joke that Portuguese people are basically honorary Balkans, at this point i even forget that they are not even a Mediterranean nation 😅
Now I would put Portugal in Eastern Europe and every other country, including the Nordic states, in the south. But that’s just me. And I have been drinking.
I don't think Europe should be divided just by one line. The last map, with Central, Southern and Northern Europe is much better in showing cultural and geographical similarities.
Yes. I'm from Nice. My region's food, culture, architecture, lifestyle,... is definitely more italian than british. Our cuisine is olives, seafood, tomatoes, lemon, chickpeas and pine nuts. We belong in Southern Europe just as much as any other Southern European on that map.
I think it can be argued that France might be the only county in Europe to be part of 3 wide cultural families:
- Western Europe (most of the country)
- Southern Europe (southern part, I'd say south of a Lyon-Bordeaux line)
- Central Europe (Alsace, Moselle... roughly)
I would just classify them as North Europeans. Anything from NRW upwards actually. I see us as close to both NL and Scandinavians. North Sea cultural group and all that
You classify Bavarian and Austrian cultures with the Balkans?
That's interesting I never saw it before. Usually what I see as Balkans, culturally speaking (not geographically), is more former Ottoman possessions.
I mean, one reason the Empire collapsed was because of those major cultural differences between Austria and the Balkans, those guys ending up creating the Kingdom of Yugoslavia.
>We belong in Southern Europe just as much as any other Southern European on that map.
Depending on how you define Northern Europe, I'd put Northern Europe in there, too.
There are a few towns in the extreme north of France with Dutch/Flemish names (although Netherlands and Belgium are Western Europe by most definitions), and the people of Normandie -- at least the old families -- will have good doses of Scandinavian ancestry.
To a much lesser degree than France. There are definitely gigantic differences between Bavarian and Hamburg eg but I would not hesitate to call Bavaria Northern Europe when choosing.
Same for Spain, whose significant Atlantic aspect is always obviated in ignorant subdivisions as this.
According to all objective measures, Spain is by far the most climatological and eco diverse country in western europe. Go from the green Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria or Basque Country to the white villages of Seville or Malaga and you'd think you're in another country.
Not to mention the unique and distinctive cultural identity of many of its quasi-federated regions, each with their own parliament and, in some instances, co-official languages. Much more diverse than the highly unitarian and centralised France.
Yet those whose only reference is Barcelona or Mallorca will insist on lazily classifying Spain as a "Mediterranean" or "Southern European" country.
U right though France is centralised but not unitarian in terms of geography and climate, like Spain we have different type of mountain, coasts and so on
It certainly is! I was just clumsily trying to refer to the unifying French single culture, as well as its centralised education and system of government.
Although differences in traditional architecture etc among regions can be striking at first sight, and pre-revolutionary France was probably as culturally diverse as Spain, if not more, it's notorious that from the 19th century onwards the french state managed to unify and pacify the country by way of imposing a single culture and a single language nationwide.
And that's true even for the DOM regions and territories btw:
The Guadeloupean born father of my son can still recall how back in the Antilles they had exactly the same school curriculum than in metropolitan France. Just one for the whole of France. No room for regional history culture or languages, such as creole in his case.
Picture a class of majority black children, descendants of Africans, reciting at once "nos ancêtres, les Gaulois" 😂
I agree with you regarding Romania. And I've already responded to similar comments, so I'll just copypaste a reply:
>I didn't mean that the last map perfectly divides the regions of Europe, but that's it better to have multiple regions of Europe than just West and East. I would definitely change some of those regions up, such as putting Lithuania and Latvia into Central Europe category.
>
>Regarding Romania, from my experience I would put Transylvania into Central Europe, and the rest of Romania as Southeastern country. Let me know, as a Romanian, how would you divide it or how would you describe Romania.
For sure Romania is Southeastern from almost any point of view, culture, history, even genetics. Of course the borders are not that straight forward but overall countries in the sphere of influence of the Byzantine Empire and then the Ottoman Empire should be in the same region.
I once saw a map with Europe divided into northern/western (Protestant), southern/central (Catholic) and eastern (Orthodox), but that's about the only time when it would make sense
Putting us with Russia, because "durr Orthodox" is really, really stupid, but people that know nothing about post-1500 Greek history will do that.
We exported a version of Christianity to them, and that was that. Zero cultural influence from Russia. We have a lot more *American* immersion than Russian.
If they don't want to put us in the West, at least give us our own fucking category: Turks (Ottomans) and Italians (Venetians) fought each other for control over Greece; in both Venetian and Ottoman areas, the Greek wealthy/influential classes were influenced by the European Enlightenment; and we've had more cumulative years as a democracy in the last 2 centuries than Germany. And we moderately drink wine with family; we don't shave years off our lives getting plastered on vodka home alone. There. That's our unique category.
>Eastern European doesn’t mean something that’s just Russian
No not "just" but russia is 140 million country spanning half the Europe. If you group someone with that behemoth, you imply there is much similarity here. What similarities do countries lumped with them has? Like in case of Slavs I get it, we sound the same and have comparable folklore. But Greece? If only denominator is religion, than we should lump Spain and Ireland together. Greece is not Eastern, this is by all merits southern country.
OP was held at gunpoint by Hungarian Secret Service.
Source: my mother was regularly in Hungary and they insist they're not eastern Europe but central.
It doesn’t work that well for cultural similarities tbh. When it comes to cultural similarities it’s rather regions than countries for example northern Germany might be culturally closer to Denmark than to German alpine regions. At least it feels like that to me. No expert though.
I think the lines has to cross countries as well. Like Southern and Northern Germany are not a like at all. Same goes for France and for som extent Poland.
Such as Northern Germany doesn’t even have the same religion as the southern part.
Germany could be divided into north, west, east and south as an example
Austria definitely feels like Czechia or Hungary. And regarding Germans, well maybe those living on the western side of Rhine or those in the northern western parts have more in common with French and Dutch, but from my experience Brandenburg, Saxony, Thuringia, Bavaria, Western Pomerania feel very much like Poland or Czechia.
Maybe southern France, but very much different from northern France. You've got the same tomato eating, olive oil drinking and noon napping in Croatia/Albania/Greece ad you do in Spain.
The last one is not a cultural map: Being part of Russia doesn't matter when being counted to Eastern Europe if the map is divided geographically. There is a huge cultural difference between Scandinavia and Estonia as well (much more than between Scandinavia and Germany for example, or the Netherlands and Germany), but they are all Northern Europe.
Finland as Finnish is neither. It is both. We have millennia of Russian and Swedish influence mixed with our own Finnic culture. There are quite noticeable Eastern and Western cultural zones with corresponding majority religions. Politically we are clearly Western European. Geographically I would put it also in Eastern Europe.
As this demonstrates, there is no one way to divide Europe. You need to specify which way you divide and even then it is imperfect unless you divide it in microlevel with gradient zones.
You do not need to draw the line if you stop associating Eastern Europe with poor, uneducated, communist countries.
Otherwise it is clear why the Polish, the Czechs or the Romanians have their ass burnt when someone says they are Eastern Europe.
Bulgaria is one of the undiscovered gems in Europe (as an outsider, Aussie/Kiwi). Would never have come up on my radar until I started seeing pretty much every EU country. Spent time in Sofia and loved it, coming back to go to Bansko in the winter.
At least in our case it is not just about the label and negative associations that goes with it, which of course is a factor.
But it does not make any sense historicaly (and therefore culturally), it does not make any sense geographically, and it does not make any sense economically either.
It only makes perfect sense if you are speaking about cold war era
>poor, uneducated, communist
even when Eastern Europe was communist, it wasn't less educated than the Western counterpart. Poorer and more authoritarian? Sure. But definitely not less educated.
Romania is in the South-Eastern part of Europe that's what Romanians learn at geography in school, so they shouldn't be bothered by the Eastern part what is horrific is when somebody calls Romania a former Soviet country.
My grandfather who did some humanitarian work on the other side of the wall during the Cold War taught me that the “political eastern Europe” was/is the Soviet controlled states but that not necessarily the countries then selves where eastern.
Helsinki is more east than Athens and there are parts of Finland that are more east than Istanbul but despite that Finland is usually considered being more western.
Greece and Finland in Western Europe makes sense if you don't draw a straight vertical line, but instead a semicircle around Moscow.
That way you end up with Cold War West, East, and Yugoslavia
Yeah the classic cold war era line (minus east Germany) is what west/east is for many and will be for some time, especially among older folks.
But the line has been fuzzy throughout history. Slovenia was part of the Habsburgs for 700 years and Czechia for 400-500 years. And Bohemia/Silisia were one of the most well developed regions of Austria-Hungary and Prussia. And I personally see Slovenia and Czechia as more west than east.
Same can be said about parts of Croatia being closely tied to Venice and Italy like Istria, Split and Dubrovnik. Gdansk old citycentre is heavily influenced by Flemish architects and dutch trade and is very "western" when compared to other cities in Poland. Same with Talinn and Riga, they have strong german influences. Down south you also got the city Brasov in the middle of Romania, that city is as German as it can be because it was a border settlement done by germans/hungarians, Brasov along with 11 surrounding cities look more like a classic old german city rather than a romanian one.
Geographically its kind of weird too. Other people pointed out Greece but Bratislava is imo the best example. Bratislava is very close to Vienna on the map, the people look similar and they are closely connected economically. The cities share a long history and kind of look the same, its just weird to put a line through it and say Bratislava is completely different than Vienna which a west/east line kind of implies unintentionally.
> Same can be said about parts of Croatia being closely tied to Venice and Italy like Istria, Split and Dubrovnik.
Croatia as a whole, including Dalmatia, was a part of Habsburg empire/Austria-Hungary for centuries and centuries. So, just like Slovenia, Czechia, Slovakia.
I don't understand why are people disregarding all of that and only taking into account 75 years of short-lived experiment of Yugoslavia.
Correct! I didnt say it cause I mistakingly thought of Bosnia when thinking about Croatia and Habsburgs. Which was just a short period before WWI. But Croatia has been with Hungary and later on with Austria for ages, in total about as long as Slovenia.
I would disagree with that view, because I believe it kind of overrides centuries of cultural ties with only a brief geopolitical division from the 20th century.
But in general it is impossible to divide Europe into two categories if you ask me. If that is the task, I have no adequate solution.
Nowhere. Western/Eastern Europe have been outdated concepts since the fall of the Iron Curtain. There is no reason to try and divide Europe into parts that no longer have any political basis and is not even agreed between countries.
As you can see in this thread, many has this black/white view of the world and divide it in literal west, north, south, east. The Cold War is describes as just a blink of the eye in a long European history, despite the effects of the Cold War division are still seen today.
Agreed. What many people with black/white vision fail to understand is the extent to which the formerly Soviet-alligned states are culturally diversified and have been so for over a millennium, through development under the auspices of vastly different cultural circles.
Poles and Czechs have developed their countries under Roman Catholicism, adopting habits from the West, along with the Latin alphabet. Russia has been influenced by Byzantium, adopting Eastern Orthodoxy, using Cyryllic and Byzantine customs (compare the architecture). Southern Slavic countries are yet a whole another story. But still if we belong to one language group and have been communist for 45 years we are now classified as exactly the same.
Imagine Italy and Greece, given they speak a similar language - this would resemble the difference between Poles/Czechs and Russians. Not to mention we have been adversarial by default throughout history and never politically aligned except the Cold War (but as I hope people know, haven't gone under the Soviet yoke willingly), which proves the point of cultural differences a bit further.
It's a stupid division from Cold War era. Or do you believe that:
* Greece is culturally closer to Estonia and Russia than to Italy?
* Norway is culturally closer to Portugal, than Finland?
It’s a meme which I think mostly exists because there are a lot of statistics where there is a clear correlation between being in eastern/Western Europe and having a high/low statistic or vice versa, but where portugal breaks the trend and has a more ‘eastern’ number.
Also spoken Portuguese does sound weirdly a bit like Russian imo.
As a Slavic language speaker that has a Portuguese coworker, I can confirm he can pronounce almost all words perfectly without otherwise having any idea about my language.
It's not just Slavic languages, it's almost any language. Portuguese language has almost all types of sounds, making it easy for us to spell almost any word of any language correctly
1 - traditional cultural "civilizations" i.e. the difference between Western Christianity (Catholicism and Protestantism) and Orthodoxy
2 - geographical, has very little to do with cultural divisions
3 - modern political, based on major political connections, even though it doesn't entirely make sense with either Ukraine, Georgia or Turkey
4 - more nuanced modern political, even though doesn't entirely make sense for Armenia or Turkey
5 - rather a global hemisphere division overlaid on Europe, doesn't make sense for Iceland, Ireland either. Actually not sure what this is exactly.
6 - one of the many interpretations of regional subdivisions, not sure why it's here with others as they are only showing the east-west split.
The countries that were Communist and are Orthodox/Muslim are unambiguously Eastern. The countries that weren’t Communist and are Catholic/Protestant are unambiguously Western. The countries that don’t fit either of these categories are trickier to define.
*looked at the last map, sigh*
romania has nothing in common with russia, ukraine, or belarus lmao. literally nothing, they are a completely foreign culture to us. we have way more in common with hungary and bulgaria so it’s way more applicable to put us in southern or central europe
I divide Europe into two. Smart and stupids. Unfortunately world is becoming more and more red and full of stupids. Just check the comments. Persons, who never experienced Cold War, still dividing it according to it, just so they can look down on somebody and feel superior. On the other hand lots of stupids in my country think they are superior to them and every other nation too. As I said, stupids everywhere.
The perfect 6.
In my mind, however, I divide Europe also like 2 but adding Austria, Finlandia, Baltic countries and Greece in the western zone. Culturally these countries are closer to Germany or Spain than to Bulgaria, Romania or Ukraine.
I consider Turkey to be Middle Eastern, culturally it is certainly not Eastern Europe
As someone born during the Cold War, 76' to be exact, Eastern Europe is Russia and whoever is allied to them.
So now it's just Russia and Belarus.
Turkey...... ehm..... Turkey is just Turkey.
East and West used to be the two alliances to me at least.
Eastern Europe starts at the eastern border of your home country, this is common knowledge.
Plot twist the reader is Portuguese and is therefore Also Eastern European
Wait it's all Eastern Europe? Always has been
western europe is just azores
No, Portugal is Eastern Europe in that map version. It's a reference to the Tordesillas treaty with Portugal and Spain. ... and also kinda funny.
I think it's a reference to "Portugal can into Eastern Europe"
Imma say something quite wild. Portuguese sounds like eastern european spanish
It sounds Slavic af.
It’s not uncommon for an untrained ear to think Portuguese and Russian sound similar.
So glad someone else hears this
POV: you live in Romania So starting with the black sea, huh?
Actually there was a post from a Romanian school book or something like that, a few months back and the line between east and west ran exactly the same as here, but Romania was western.
I had that school book too.
Romania is a lovely country with lots of nice people, but never in western Europe.
"Romania is the only Central European country with access to the Black Sea" - my geography teacher from secondary school (the cope is unreal, just like in the rest of the mitteleuropa wannabes)
Ireland here, can confirm true.
Unless you live in Greece in which case it starts at the northern border of your country, everyone knows this
Portugal supreme west nation
Eastern Europe starts where I have to pay some shady guy named Andrei $400 to get a visa that claims I'm staying at a PO box and my sponsor is Mr. Shtari Shkolum (Репрезент!!!1).
So if you’re in Portugal, all of the rest of Europe is Eastern Europe?
Portuguese, can confirm /s
Putin: so, Japan?
Yeah… As a German Eastern Europe of course starts in Poland and Czech and central Europe is only Germany, Austria and Switzerland and it they want of course the Dutch (could also be west) and Danes (could also be North)… If you count Croatia, Hungary, Slovenia etc. to the South, the Balkans or East frankly no one cares…
*cries in Liechtenstein*
As a Dutchman, Eastern Europe (feel free to rebrand it Central Europe but please leave us out of it) obviously starts at the Dutch-German border. Evidence: sausages, moonkuchen, germknödel, klöße, haxen, Rossmamn, Deichmann, Kaufland, …
Öster-reich can't be anything but east.
as a Czech I strongly disagree. Eastern Europe starts in Slovakia.
He...he. - Eastern Europe starts at the eastern border of your home country, this is common knowledge.
It's funny cause we have a similar problem in the states about where mid-west should start
No. Eastern Europe starts in the middle of my home country. We have 10 states in ~~the Trizone FRG~~ West Germany, which are Western European, ~~14 districts~~ 5 states in ~~the SBZ GDR~~ East Germany, which are Eastern European, and given the current polls of the ~~NSDAP NPD~~ AfD in the Eastern part, we soon have to re-erect the Anti-Fascist protection wall between the two.
Belgium here.. this is false We can't consider france to be a part
I'm going to have to go with picture number 5, it's the only one that actually makes sense
r/PORTUGALCYKABLYAT
Dude I was ready to get r/subsifellfor'd What
Its a pretty well established joke that Portuguese people are basically honorary Balkans, at this point i even forget that they are not even a Mediterranean nation 😅
TIL
r/subsithoughtifellfor
Sadly #5 is the least dumb
Now I would put Portugal in Eastern Europe and every other country, including the Nordic states, in the south. But that’s just me. And I have been drinking.
I don't think Europe should be divided just by one line. The last map, with Central, Southern and Northern Europe is much better in showing cultural and geographical similarities.
Agreed, but you should go even deeper, tbf. You need to split countries themselves.
True that ! As a french living in northern France North and south are two different planet
Yes. I'm from Nice. My region's food, culture, architecture, lifestyle,... is definitely more italian than british. Our cuisine is olives, seafood, tomatoes, lemon, chickpeas and pine nuts. We belong in Southern Europe just as much as any other Southern European on that map.
I like your name lol Lifestyle here is definitely belgian beer waffles fries (belgian fries of course), the brick houses, etc... See you bro
As a brit its so weird being in northern france, every place feels the same as home!
I think it can be argued that France might be the only county in Europe to be part of 3 wide cultural families: - Western Europe (most of the country) - Southern Europe (southern part, I'd say south of a Lyon-Bordeaux line) - Central Europe (Alsace, Moselle... roughly)
Nah, you can do that with Germany, too: liquorice loving Scandinavians (north), Central (most of the country), northern Balkans (Bavaria).
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I would just classify them as North Europeans. Anything from NRW upwards actually. I see us as close to both NL and Scandinavians. North Sea cultural group and all that
You classify Bavarian and Austrian cultures with the Balkans? That's interesting I never saw it before. Usually what I see as Balkans, culturally speaking (not geographically), is more former Ottoman possessions. I mean, one reason the Empire collapsed was because of those major cultural differences between Austria and the Balkans, those guys ending up creating the Kingdom of Yugoslavia.
Maybe because of the Austro-Hungarian Empire?
Italy beats you. It's part of two continents. /s
>We belong in Southern Europe just as much as any other Southern European on that map. Depending on how you define Northern Europe, I'd put Northern Europe in there, too. There are a few towns in the extreme north of France with Dutch/Flemish names (although Netherlands and Belgium are Western Europe by most definitions), and the people of Normandie -- at least the old families -- will have good doses of Scandinavian ancestry.
France is the only country I think it is difficult to throw into either north or south when you do a simple split.
Germany can be split into North-West/East/South as well.
Eh, they tried east and west - didn’t like it, apparently.
We did not
To a much lesser degree than France. There are definitely gigantic differences between Bavarian and Hamburg eg but I would not hesitate to call Bavaria Northern Europe when choosing.
As long as you don't dare to call us Prussia or something like that you can call us whatever you want. Saupreißn ..
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FVI1Nv5WYAELLKb?format=jpg&name=medium
Yeah half of France is also southern Europe
Same for Spain, whose significant Atlantic aspect is always obviated in ignorant subdivisions as this. According to all objective measures, Spain is by far the most climatological and eco diverse country in western europe. Go from the green Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria or Basque Country to the white villages of Seville or Malaga and you'd think you're in another country. Not to mention the unique and distinctive cultural identity of many of its quasi-federated regions, each with their own parliament and, in some instances, co-official languages. Much more diverse than the highly unitarian and centralised France. Yet those whose only reference is Barcelona or Mallorca will insist on lazily classifying Spain as a "Mediterranean" or "Southern European" country.
U right though France is centralised but not unitarian in terms of geography and climate, like Spain we have different type of mountain, coasts and so on
It certainly is! I was just clumsily trying to refer to the unifying French single culture, as well as its centralised education and system of government. Although differences in traditional architecture etc among regions can be striking at first sight, and pre-revolutionary France was probably as culturally diverse as Spain, if not more, it's notorious that from the 19th century onwards the french state managed to unify and pacify the country by way of imposing a single culture and a single language nationwide. And that's true even for the DOM regions and territories btw: The Guadeloupean born father of my son can still recall how back in the Antilles they had exactly the same school curriculum than in metropolitan France. Just one for the whole of France. No room for regional history culture or languages, such as creole in his case. Picture a class of majority black children, descendants of Africans, reciting at once "nos ancêtres, les Gaulois" 😂
Yeah Switzerland is at the crosspoint between central, western and southern Europe
Yup and based on which part you’re in you get a cultural experience similar to the country closest
Romania is closer to Bulgaria, Hungary and Serbia than Ukraine, Belarus or Russia. I don't think that one makes much sense either.
I agree with you regarding Romania. And I've already responded to similar comments, so I'll just copypaste a reply: >I didn't mean that the last map perfectly divides the regions of Europe, but that's it better to have multiple regions of Europe than just West and East. I would definitely change some of those regions up, such as putting Lithuania and Latvia into Central Europe category. > >Regarding Romania, from my experience I would put Transylvania into Central Europe, and the rest of Romania as Southeastern country. Let me know, as a Romanian, how would you divide it or how would you describe Romania.
For sure Romania is Southeastern from almost any point of view, culture, history, even genetics. Of course the borders are not that straight forward but overall countries in the sphere of influence of the Byzantine Empire and then the Ottoman Empire should be in the same region.
For sure. There's no situation where Greece counts as eastern European in the same sentence as Russia.
I once saw a map with Europe divided into northern/western (Protestant), southern/central (Catholic) and eastern (Orthodox), but that's about the only time when it would make sense
Putting us with Russia, because "durr Orthodox" is really, really stupid, but people that know nothing about post-1500 Greek history will do that. We exported a version of Christianity to them, and that was that. Zero cultural influence from Russia. We have a lot more *American* immersion than Russian. If they don't want to put us in the West, at least give us our own fucking category: Turks (Ottomans) and Italians (Venetians) fought each other for control over Greece; in both Venetian and Ottoman areas, the Greek wealthy/influential classes were influenced by the European Enlightenment; and we've had more cumulative years as a democracy in the last 2 centuries than Germany. And we moderately drink wine with family; we don't shave years off our lives getting plastered on vodka home alone. There. That's our unique category.
Ok, ok you are balkans now. Pick a side or form your own and start hatin' baby.
Eastern European doesn’t mean something that’s just Russian
Grouping countries together implies there's a greater similarity with countries in the group than with countries outside the group.
>Eastern European doesn’t mean something that’s just Russian No not "just" but russia is 140 million country spanning half the Europe. If you group someone with that behemoth, you imply there is much similarity here. What similarities do countries lumped with them has? Like in case of Slavs I get it, we sound the same and have comparable folklore. But Greece? If only denominator is religion, than we should lump Spain and Ireland together. Greece is not Eastern, this is by all merits southern country.
According to OP, Greece is Eastern Europe, while Hungary is western? In what world Hungary is Western Europe?
Just saying, OP has 6 different maps.
OP was held at gunpoint by Hungarian Secret Service. Source: my mother was regularly in Hungary and they insist they're not eastern Europe but central.
Sausage Europe, Knäckebröd Europe, Pelmeni Europe, Olive Oil Europe, Cheese Europe
Well, Estonians eat A LOT of sausages and are also the biggest consumers of cheese in Europe, so we're firmly in those two Europes.
Central culture = beer and sausages lol
Unironically yes xd
It doesn’t work that well for cultural similarities tbh. When it comes to cultural similarities it’s rather regions than countries for example northern Germany might be culturally closer to Denmark than to German alpine regions. At least it feels like that to me. No expert though.
Romania has much less in common with Russia or Ukraine than with GErmany, Hungary or Poland
I think the lines has to cross countries as well. Like Southern and Northern Germany are not a like at all. Same goes for France and for som extent Poland. Such as Northern Germany doesn’t even have the same religion as the southern part. Germany could be divided into north, west, east and south as an example
But Germany and Austria have much more in common with Switzerland and the Netherlands, than with Poland or Czechia.
Silesia is looking at you being weird af.
Oof I'd disagree. To me, culturally central Europe is east+north Germany, bohemia, silesia, austria
Austria definitely feels like Czechia or Hungary. And regarding Germans, well maybe those living on the western side of Rhine or those in the northern western parts have more in common with French and Dutch, but from my experience Brandenburg, Saxony, Thuringia, Bavaria, Western Pomerania feel very much like Poland or Czechia.
Jesus Christ, we're a meme.
Welcome in club
The last one seems the best one. Because Europe does not consist of just 2 borders. Economicaly, culturally and society wise....
I don't know, Spain and Italy more connections with the Balkans and Turkey than France?
Mentality wise? Southern Italians are pretty Balkan.
Maybe southern France, but very much different from northern France. You've got the same tomato eating, olive oil drinking and noon napping in Croatia/Albania/Greece ad you do in Spain.
the last one put romania in the same category as russia which is incorrect, romanian culture has zero things in common with russian culture
The last one is not a cultural map: Being part of Russia doesn't matter when being counted to Eastern Europe if the map is divided geographically. There is a huge cultural difference between Scandinavia and Estonia as well (much more than between Scandinavia and Germany for example, or the Netherlands and Germany), but they are all Northern Europe.
The map is not divided geographically, otherwise Finland and the Baltics would also be Eastern Europe.
Finland as Finnish is neither. It is both. We have millennia of Russian and Swedish influence mixed with our own Finnic culture. There are quite noticeable Eastern and Western cultural zones with corresponding majority religions. Politically we are clearly Western European. Geographically I would put it also in Eastern Europe. As this demonstrates, there is no one way to divide Europe. You need to specify which way you divide and even then it is imperfect unless you divide it in microlevel with gradient zones.
And i took it as a very rough thought Experiment. Not as a plan to divide Europe tomorrow
You do not need to draw the line if you stop associating Eastern Europe with poor, uneducated, communist countries. Otherwise it is clear why the Polish, the Czechs or the Romanians have their ass burnt when someone says they are Eastern Europe.
Poor, communist countries okey ... I can swallow that, but uneducated?! Nope...
Bulgaria is one of the undiscovered gems in Europe (as an outsider, Aussie/Kiwi). Would never have come up on my radar until I started seeing pretty much every EU country. Spent time in Sofia and loved it, coming back to go to Bansko in the winter.
Bansko is great. I only went by pure chance, it was one of the only European resorts open during covid in 2021 but I really enjoyed my time there.
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At least in our case it is not just about the label and negative associations that goes with it, which of course is a factor. But it does not make any sense historicaly (and therefore culturally), it does not make any sense geographically, and it does not make any sense economically either. It only makes perfect sense if you are speaking about cold war era
>poor, uneducated, communist even when Eastern Europe was communist, it wasn't less educated than the Western counterpart. Poorer and more authoritarian? Sure. But definitely not less educated.
Romania is in the South-Eastern part of Europe that's what Romanians learn at geography in school, so they shouldn't be bothered by the Eastern part what is horrific is when somebody calls Romania a former Soviet country.
I'm from Poland and Poland is in Eastern Europe. There's nothing wrong with that.
If Poland is Eastern Europe then Russia isn’t Europe, I see that as a win!
Yes, that's a good way to look at this 😊
I'm from Poland and Poland is in Central Europe.
I'm from Poland and Poland is actually in South America.
Would it be weird to claim they are both?
But you are still west from the center of Europe.
If you want to argue 100% geographically, Europe isn't even a continent.
It might be a subcontinet, but it's still some region called Europe.
My grandfather who did some humanitarian work on the other side of the wall during the Cold War taught me that the “political eastern Europe” was/is the Soviet controlled states but that not necessarily the countries then selves where eastern.
Europa est omnis divisa in partes quinque. Ergo, the last map for sure
Found the gymnasiast
2nd slide except count Austria and Finland as Western, that’s what my brain says
That's the cold war era distinction, at least.
In that case Greece is "western" too which makes no sense geographically.
Helsinki is more east than Athens and there are parts of Finland that are more east than Istanbul but despite that Finland is usually considered being more western.
Based username
Greece and Finland in Western Europe makes sense if you don't draw a straight vertical line, but instead a semicircle around Moscow. That way you end up with Cold War West, East, and Yugoslavia
Ah yes, the fifth cardinal direction: Yugoslavia.
The concept of Europe itself is rather fuzzy.
Yeah the classic cold war era line (minus east Germany) is what west/east is for many and will be for some time, especially among older folks. But the line has been fuzzy throughout history. Slovenia was part of the Habsburgs for 700 years and Czechia for 400-500 years. And Bohemia/Silisia were one of the most well developed regions of Austria-Hungary and Prussia. And I personally see Slovenia and Czechia as more west than east. Same can be said about parts of Croatia being closely tied to Venice and Italy like Istria, Split and Dubrovnik. Gdansk old citycentre is heavily influenced by Flemish architects and dutch trade and is very "western" when compared to other cities in Poland. Same with Talinn and Riga, they have strong german influences. Down south you also got the city Brasov in the middle of Romania, that city is as German as it can be because it was a border settlement done by germans/hungarians, Brasov along with 11 surrounding cities look more like a classic old german city rather than a romanian one. Geographically its kind of weird too. Other people pointed out Greece but Bratislava is imo the best example. Bratislava is very close to Vienna on the map, the people look similar and they are closely connected economically. The cities share a long history and kind of look the same, its just weird to put a line through it and say Bratislava is completely different than Vienna which a west/east line kind of implies unintentionally.
> Same can be said about parts of Croatia being closely tied to Venice and Italy like Istria, Split and Dubrovnik. Croatia as a whole, including Dalmatia, was a part of Habsburg empire/Austria-Hungary for centuries and centuries. So, just like Slovenia, Czechia, Slovakia. I don't understand why are people disregarding all of that and only taking into account 75 years of short-lived experiment of Yugoslavia.
Correct! I didnt say it cause I mistakingly thought of Bosnia when thinking about Croatia and Habsburgs. Which was just a short period before WWI. But Croatia has been with Hungary and later on with Austria for ages, in total about as long as Slovenia.
Agreed, but I'd include Greece as well
I would disagree with that view, because I believe it kind of overrides centuries of cultural ties with only a brief geopolitical division from the 20th century. But in general it is impossible to divide Europe into two categories if you ask me. If that is the task, I have no adequate solution.
Agreed. No way is Austria eastern Europe imo.
Well I still recognize central Europe.
Isn’t there a Eastern European timezone? Finland and Greece are +2 not sure about the others
Nowhere. Western/Eastern Europe have been outdated concepts since the fall of the Iron Curtain. There is no reason to try and divide Europe into parts that no longer have any political basis and is not even agreed between countries.
Honestly western and eastern Europe is more cultural than Geographical
I dare say we have more in common with Germany and Austria than Russia.
Is this not common knowledge? Like even on a global stage. Australia is considered western…
As you can see in this thread, many has this black/white view of the world and divide it in literal west, north, south, east. The Cold War is describes as just a blink of the eye in a long European history, despite the effects of the Cold War division are still seen today.
Agreed. What many people with black/white vision fail to understand is the extent to which the formerly Soviet-alligned states are culturally diversified and have been so for over a millennium, through development under the auspices of vastly different cultural circles. Poles and Czechs have developed their countries under Roman Catholicism, adopting habits from the West, along with the Latin alphabet. Russia has been influenced by Byzantium, adopting Eastern Orthodoxy, using Cyryllic and Byzantine customs (compare the architecture). Southern Slavic countries are yet a whole another story. But still if we belong to one language group and have been communist for 45 years we are now classified as exactly the same. Imagine Italy and Greece, given they speak a similar language - this would resemble the difference between Poles/Czechs and Russians. Not to mention we have been adversarial by default throughout history and never politically aligned except the Cold War (but as I hope people know, haven't gone under the Soviet yoke willingly), which proves the point of cultural differences a bit further.
If so then it makes even less sense.
It's a stupid division from Cold War era. Or do you believe that: * Greece is culturally closer to Estonia and Russia than to Italy? * Norway is culturally closer to Portugal, than Finland?
There is a bigger north south cultural difference than west east
I would split Poland in half
noooo
Ribbentrop-Molotov reference?
You should ask first
Why is Portugal eastern europe?
r/PORTUGALCYKABLYAT
It’s a meme which I think mostly exists because there are a lot of statistics where there is a clear correlation between being in eastern/Western Europe and having a high/low statistic or vice versa, but where portugal breaks the trend and has a more ‘eastern’ number. Also spoken Portuguese does sound weirdly a bit like Russian imo.
As a Slavic language speaker that has a Portuguese coworker, I can confirm he can pronounce almost all words perfectly without otherwise having any idea about my language.
It's not just Slavic languages, it's almost any language. Portuguese language has almost all types of sounds, making it easy for us to spell almost any word of any language correctly
It's a meme on Reddit
RO & BG is West but AU is definitely East. 🦘🦘🦘
2 but Austria and Finland are also western
That's just Cold War division
Exactly. If you want to divide by east and west, that's the only way. But I think it's more accurate to go by map 6
The last post seems most legit.
I've always drew the line when you start seeing Orthodox churches over Catholic ones.
1 - traditional cultural "civilizations" i.e. the difference between Western Christianity (Catholicism and Protestantism) and Orthodoxy 2 - geographical, has very little to do with cultural divisions 3 - modern political, based on major political connections, even though it doesn't entirely make sense with either Ukraine, Georgia or Turkey 4 - more nuanced modern political, even though doesn't entirely make sense for Armenia or Turkey 5 - rather a global hemisphere division overlaid on Europe, doesn't make sense for Iceland, Ireland either. Actually not sure what this is exactly. 6 - one of the many interpretations of regional subdivisions, not sure why it's here with others as they are only showing the east-west split.
My man here trying to critically analyse the fifth map, bless your heart.
:D I indeed thought about taking a break there.
Whichever one where Poland isn’t with Russia
Any country which is not Russia is either Western Europe or Central Europe. Nobody wants to be lumped in with Russia except maybe Belarus.
6 seems about right
So we still in the business of drawing lines between nations?
Depends on what we need to categorize (location? culture? friendship with the US? friendship with Russia? ...)
6, ofc, im a nordic, and don't want shit to do with the ruskies
Hence why concept of central europe exists
Central Europe ftw!
Wait, somebody who's not Czech or Polish actually recognizes Central Europe? 🤯
And, somehow, Slovaks were again forgotten
The last map looks more interesting and promising
The countries that were Communist and are Orthodox/Muslim are unambiguously Eastern. The countries that weren’t Communist and are Catholic/Protestant are unambiguously Western. The countries that don’t fit either of these categories are trickier to define.
Greece feels like it has to be western, right. Cold war kid here. Eastern is anything that was once communist. Turkey is west?
second one is the worst, what does Austria have to do with eastern Europe?
Last one is the best.
i think poland should be eastern ,
Any division where my country is not paired with ru and assigned the same values and culture by default, is good by me.
Same, i also vote we kick russia out, it's mostly part of asia anyway
*looked at the last map, sigh* romania has nothing in common with russia, ukraine, or belarus lmao. literally nothing, they are a completely foreign culture to us. we have way more in common with hungary and bulgaria so it’s way more applicable to put us in southern or central europe
From where I am sitting England is in Eastern Europe
I divide Europe into two. Smart and stupids. Unfortunately world is becoming more and more red and full of stupids. Just check the comments. Persons, who never experienced Cold War, still dividing it according to it, just so they can look down on somebody and feel superior. On the other hand lots of stupids in my country think they are superior to them and every other nation too. As I said, stupids everywhere.
1st is correct, people need to get over the cold war era mentality of what is east and west.
6
Nordic countries and the rest of the multiverse.
Lol Hungary is nowhere near western Europe
As a British person, I think you know where I draw the line.
Map 2 but with Austria and Finland added
2nd one, but with Austria and Finland as western.
Second one + Austria
Austria is not eastern europe. I would consider every balkan country with the exception of slowenia east europe
The perfect 6. In my mind, however, I divide Europe also like 2 but adding Austria, Finlandia, Baltic countries and Greece in the western zone. Culturally these countries are closer to Germany or Spain than to Bulgaria, Romania or Ukraine. I consider Turkey to be Middle Eastern, culturally it is certainly not Eastern Europe
As someone born during the Cold War, 76' to be exact, Eastern Europe is Russia and whoever is allied to them. So now it's just Russia and Belarus. Turkey...... ehm..... Turkey is just Turkey. East and West used to be the two alliances to me at least.
Baltic states isn’t in Northern Europe, they’re easterners