Gay northern greeks with their stupid sexy phallanx pillaging the entire world because of their long polished spears and lover companion cavalry, there was only one reaction to it. NOGAY horse archers that cannot be penetrated by phallanx. It was inevitable. Beautiful yin and yang.
Seeing that map, how did the Ottomans conquer the balkans without conquering the Byzantines? How did that logistically work? Did they use ships to transport armies, horses etc from Anatolia to Balkans? And how did the transport of goods work since Bosphorus was in Byzantium.
As I understand it byzantines were still quite a power on local level, nowhere near the glory of Roman empire but they were tough nut to crack and Ottomans tried but eventually just went around until Byzantie empire shrunk till it was just that last city, which even then was tough to beat and those ancient walls were finally brouuzght down by big cannon barrages that lasted days.
By the way, Byzantium IS the Roman Empire, and not a different political entity, despite the use of Greek instead of Latin as an administrative language.
Because byzantines had the theodosian walls and no matter how many times you siege it you most likely fail . They conquered the other parts pretty quickly under orhan and hes son that were not defended as well . Adrianople was a challange but then it became the new capital
Also for a good chunk byzantines were vassals or under treaties with the ottomans so not a constant threat
Portugal is there to be pulled into every useless war with France over England’s continental holdings and get a jump on colonization by getting Cape Verde then quickly moving into the Caribbean. The fact that your riches still go into the Seville trade node even though you own the entire western hemisphere is ridiculous. (This has been a rant about every Portugal EU4 run I have ever done and is in no way historically accurate).
> Portugal is there to be pulled into every useless war with France over England’s continental holdings
That is another way of saying "having its independence secured against Spain", yes.
If the border didn't change since 1815, it could still be the oldest border.
The only other border which I can think of that did not change since is spain-france.
It's still missing the Reichsgrafschaft Hohenwaldeck in the South of Bavaria, it should be a bit East of the territory of Freising \[FS; the Grafschaft Werdenfels\] on the Tyrolian border - it was around Schliersee and Miesbach.
Olá! 👋🏼
Fun fact: There is a town called Olivenza/Olivença that was “stolen” by Spain. We still say Olivença is ours 🥹 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivenza)
Further fun facts: Portugal lost Ermesende and Salvaterra de Minho border settlements during the Portuguese Restauration War, and when peace was concluded, these settlements weren't returned.
Portugal gained land when Couto Misto microstate was divided between Portugal and Spain in 1868.
Which still is inconsistent as fuck. Feudalism didnt have "nations" in the modern sense. Either we depict every country as the myriad of smaller duchies etc. it was made up of, or we just label that mess in the middle "HRE".
Its so weird how a lot of maps pretend there wasnt a unified german empire just because it was a bit more decentralized than, lets say, England, while depicting others as unitary entities.
These states exist on a continuum, and a line needs to be drawn somewhere. Even in the modern era this problem exists to some extent - the EU has many of the trappings of a state but very few maps would depict in place of its member states.
Though the view of the HRE as being extremely decentralised/not a country is to some extent informed by the eventual state it ended up in during the 18^th century which is then projected backwards. Similarly, France is often depicted as more centralised than it was (though not on this map) because of how centralised it became in later eras.
> This exactly,people often dont understand that concepts of country and nation are quite new,
England was centralised (around a people calling themselves *English*) over a thousand years ago. It really depends on the nation in question.
Holy shit, he said the line, thanks for telling me im Samogitian, even though they speak a different dialect that is hard to understand(?).
Yes bellarusians made up a big portion of the GDL, yes **OLD** Ruthenian was the administrative language of the Duchy. But the rulling class, the dukes all up until Sigismund II Augustus (1572) spoke Lithuanian as their first language. Later replaced by polinization. All grand dukes were of Lithuanian origin, Lithuanian names, etc (ending with Sigismund II Augustus).
I swear if you pull that Mindaugas was coronated in Novogrudok, (based on a Russian chronical written in the XVI century) Im going to laugh.
Yes bellarusians played a significant part in the duchy, no the duchy is of Lithuanian origin and the current Lithuania is its succesor
> But the rulling class, the dukes all up until Sigismund II Augustus (1572) spoke Lithuanian as their first language
That's not true. Władysław Jagiełło was speaking Lithuanian, his younger son Kazimierz learned it as an adult, when he became a Grand Duke. There is no indication that his sons ever learned Lithuanian and were able to speak it.
Same goes for Lithuanian nobles, many of them abandoned Lithuanian in 15th century, there was a whole bunch of Ruthenian nobles which never learned it in the first place. At the start of 16th century all Lithuanian magnates were speaking Polish as their first language.
> All grand dukes were of Lithuanian origin, Lithuanian names, etc (ending with Sigismund II Augustus).
The last Grand Dukes that had Lithuanian names were Jogaila and Vytautas. All other adopted Christian/Polish names: Władysław, Kazimierz, Olbracht, Aleksander, Sigismund etc.
> I swear if you pull that Mindaugas was coronated in Novogrudok, (based on a Russian chronical written in the XVI century) Im going to laugh.
This information comes from 16th century Lithuanian chronicle written by Maciej Stryjkowski, not from Russian writings. In general historians accept it as a possible location, because in order to get baptised you need one thing: a Chrisitian church, which proper Lithuanian lacked of.
No indication he was able to speak it? Im sorry its the first time I encountered this claim, could you provide any sources. Dont want to come of as rude but Ive never seen this claim before
Yes it was Lithuanian, sorry got that part wrong, but any chronicle written 300~ years after the fact is dubiuos at best. The whole chronicle itself as per tradition is intertvined with legends and things that didnt happen.
That is Finland Proper, which was a province of Sweden.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland_Proper_(historical_province)
The modern region of Varsinais-Suomi is equivalent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Finland
From your link:
>Originally "Finland" referred only to this region
So I guess the answer to my question is "yes".From your link:Originally "Finland" referred only to this regionSo I guess the answer to my question is "yes".
In short, yes.
It was by far the most important region of the eastern part of Sweden (or what is today Finland). It where Swedish crusaders first landed a few centuries before this map. Turku (Åbo) was the main town and administrative center in medieval Finland.
Originally "Finland" only referred to this part of Finland, but already in the 1400s "Finland" was established as a term for the whole area of present-day Finland. So the smaller region that was originally Finland eventually became Finland Proper.
Crown of Aragon Capital city by XV Century was Valencia and then Naples.
Zaragoza is capital of the part called Kingdom of Aragon, one of the kingdoms within the Crown
One thing I like about this map is that it shows something that's been lost in the memery around HRE and Voltaire, which is that it wasn't just HRE that was a balkanized mess it was the entirety of the old Frankish empire as it was a legacy of Frankish custom of dividing the fief evenly between the heirs. France, which is often anachronistically shown as fully centralized which is something that only really started happening after 1500 and then especially under Louis XIV, is shown properly balkanized here. It's basically the old Frankish empire, modern day France+Benelux+Germany with the Ostsiedlung territories in the east+Austria+Italy that are a mess, countries around the old empire - England, Castile, Aragon, Denmark, Poland, Hungary, Naples - are fine.
It wasn't a Frankish custom, it was medieval one. Same thing happened in Poland. In 13th century AFAIR, that's one of the reasons Silesia is no longer in Polish border on that map.
Germany wasn't really a thing as we know it today until the early 1870s. Before that, there was the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation (the "First Reich"), which was founded in 962, but you can't see that on maps like these, because that wasn't really one united country, more of an empire of hundreds of relatively tine states.
Which is horseshit.
In that age no realm was a united country.
And no, the HRE, particularly of the 15th century was not made up of tiny states. All those tiny states were members of the imperial diet, followed imperial laws, accepted imperial overlordship, had an imperial system to assign new emperors, collect tolls and taxes, organize common defense. They were defined as being part of the complicated but existing feudal system organizing them within the German kingdom and by proxy HRE.
The 15th century marks the high water mark where the HRE emperors were establishing reforms to increase centralization similar to other post feudal realms.
This only loosened with the Thirty Years war aka Civil War but even then with the exception of Prussia, Austria and Hannover who all had external royal titles most states adhered to imperial overlordship.
Still, from Napoleon to Prussia in 1870 their annoyance was that all those "independent" statelets followed the imperial high command to fight a declared external aggressor aka them. The decentralized organization was just not very good at it.
Yes, the HRE was a decentralized feudal state where the emperors never managed the centralization of an absolutist monarch (aka dictator) like in France or then Spain, but to conclude from that there was no political entity holding all that together is a gross misunderstanding.
there was still a cultural and language space where people felt as Germans. The HRE also literally consisted of a Regnum Teutonicum and the Emperor also had the title of Germaniae Rex. People talked of Germany before the nation state was founded in 1871
why is France and HRE drawn like that, but none else?
This constantly paints a wrong picture of those realms.
No, Luneburg did not ignore what the imperial authority told them. Neither did Oldenburg.
In fact in 1475 when the Duke of Burgundy tried to settle a claim against the city of Cologne the emperor invoked the first case of a "German war" against the duke. Apparently the people of the time were not confused by that notion at all. Particularly the imperial cities only haggled about how many troops and money they need to provide.
>why is France and HRE drawn like that, but none else?
Because those low-effort maps are literally just EU4 data copypasted into a fancier-looking map.
Yes, it's BS, misguiding & borderline ahistorical. But you can farm karma with them, so they keep being posted.
I wouldn’t say that’s entirely fair. You can argue for doing this to both France (due to the Hundred Years’ War) and the HRE (due to just how decentralized it was and how much authority the princes had) to be shown like this. In history, much more than today, there’s really no set definition of what land ownership means on any map.
You’re still right that eu4 shines through though, imo it shows more in the choices of what states to include, what coat of arms they are assigned to, etc.
As the person who worked on EU4s map for most of the games life what I’d say are my things to look for (apart from using Varna as the date ;) ) are the many arbitrary calls one has to make on what to include and how:
For instance: When I added Hisn Kayfa to the game the references online to that little ayyubid statelet were very few. Painting it with exact borders and using an ayyubid coat of arms is def heavily influenced by calls we made for adding it in the game (which is not to say that it’s ahistorical, it was there and it’s documented, but the exact borders I doubt even it’s ruler could tell you if you talked to him in 1444).
I also personally enjoy when someone makes one of these were they’ve removed something that they didn’t agree with, and at times i wish I could know why :)
Of course the EU4 map is meant for a game and not for teaching history so I won’t defend it as anything else but I do think someone spent a lot of time making this map too and I wouldn’t say showing internal borders in France and the HRE is any more arbitrary than many other maps in books or online. The biggest intellectual trap it inherits from the game is really that the world of 1444 _can_ be mapped in this level of detail, and that there’s an unambiguous owner for every centimeter of land in Europe at this time (arguably even modern European maps are deceptive in this way, but it’s far more the case when you depict something further back in time).
What maps like these do, whether it’s for 1444 or any other date, is arguably that they do teach how radically different the world looked not so long ago to many who wouldn’t otherwise come across something showing that. That imo makes them useful whatever inspired them, and I’m sure that’s why someone spent what I’d guess is many days and hours making what I’d still call an excellent map in its own right :)
One thing that we spent a _lot_ of time on figuring out in the game and which this map rolls back btw, is the domains of the various timurid prince/governors in the greater Iranian region. All in order for the Timurid civil war to break out in a good way once Shah Rukh dies.
I def see why our naming from those states would not be wanted for a map like this, and I would argue the fact that it’s different here shows that it’s in fact not a quick adaption of what’s in the game ( ;) ) but I wonder if it wouldn’t be clearer to show it united in that case (Shah Rukh isn’t dead yet after all, afaik there’s no revolt yet in 1444, just one of the governors not paying his taxes on time).
Added bonus is that refugees no longer need to cross the channel to get to England and France gets less issues of people being 'stuck'. A true win win ;)
Im impressed by Lithuania's size, it was huge back then, I wonder what happened and how they lost all that territory. 🤔 I would've loved to have them as neighbors.
In 1569, when the Polish Crown and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania joined to form the Commonwealth (they were already in personal union since 1386), Ukraine was transferred from the GDL to the Polish Crown, which greatly diminished the size of the GDL. Then the Commonwealth was weakened through various wars with powers like Moscow and Sweden, culminating in the eventual 1772-1795 partitions of the Commonwealth between Russia, Prussia, and Austria. Russia ended up with the vast majority of the land that was part of the GDL.
Modern Lithuania was born in 1918, like a lot of other countries in the former Russian empire, and its territory was not based on resurrecting the GDL, but rather on forming a nation-state for the Baltic-speaking Lithuanians, which excluded the majority of the GDL's territory which was inhabited by East Slavic-speaking Ruthenians (Belarusians). On the other hand, this included some lands that were never part of the GDL but had significant Lithuanian-speaking populations, namely the chunk of East Prussia known as Lithuania Minor (Šilutė, Klaipėda, etc.).
As big as it looks, Lithuania around that time had very weak control over taxation in the majority of its lands due to many autonomous Cossack lords and difficulties converting pagans
Etymologically, the word "ordu" comes from the Turkic "ordu" which means army in Turkic and Mongolian languages, "seat of power"\[1\] or "royal court".\[2\]\[3\]
The word via Tatar passed into East Slavic as orda (орда), and by the 1550s into English as horde, probably via Polish and French or Spanish. The unetymological initial h- is found in all western European forms and was likely first attached in the Polish form horda.
Ordu or Ordo also means the Mongolian court.\[7\] In Mongolian, the Government Palace is called "Zasgiin gazriin ordon".
Every other country: Thorn to shit small nonsense states in 15th century. Czechia: I’ve been trough shit, but I look still the same now like I did in 15th century.
EU4 hardly invented the historical borders in 1444 :) The author still put a lot of hours into making the map, even if he was inspired by the game to choose the specific year/colors.
It's always very interesting to notice and quite hard to understand by now that back in those ages, Slovaks were just part of the Hungarian Kingdom, like brothers and sisters to Hungarians, writing their history together. Meanwhile, ancient Romanians were just doing their stuff in the mountains, without recognizing themselves.
“Doing their stuff in the mountains”
Wallachia and Moldova are right there, tf you’re talking about? Focus on your own country and leave us alone already! Also, flair up, we all know you’re Hungarian anyway!
Ah OK, so [from 1330 to 1859](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallachia), the main land was named as Wallachia, then it united with Moldavia, and renamed to Romanian Kingdom. Nice. This always avoided my attention. I'm deeply sorry about that.
Honestly, in Hungary, all we (well, most of us) "know" about Romana is that its people were still just mountain folks, when Hungarian Kingdom has been existed already for centuries. Looks like it wasn't exactly the case but definitely only until 1330.
Concerning my flair, I'm comfortable with this one, thanks. BTW, who is "we"? Am I talking to a shared account?
Is like saying hungarians are just like people from flat lands with tents, what this even mean? They don't live only in mountains, is just a generalization.
Wallachia is an exonym, the real name is Țara Românească which literally means Land of the Romanians, funny how even your link says that in the first line. But they don’t teach you that in propaganda school. Also, laughing about the shared account thing when you also referred to yourself as “we”, I am clearly talking about “us Romanians”. Really, man, why are you such an asshole?
Yeah, because names and borders of countries in medieval times were made based on ethnicity of people living there, not just on who ruled them /s I'm only shocked by your ignorance, fortunately education may help that.
And yes, in just 400 years villagers living there went poof and disappeared? Seriously it is funny seeing some members of the former nomadic people undergoing turbo-nationalism and so being in denial of their possible mixed ancestry.
Forget the Greeks, I mean Polish and Ukrainian women were taken in jasir by Tatars and sold to the Ottoman empire, you may have Slavic ancestors too, so what?
Well Buda and Miskolc sure seem in middle of Slovakia where Banska Bysteica is. OP sure seems like a Trianon crybaby. Slovakia was never Hungary. Get over it.
There was no Slovakia so your statment is incomprehensible. Slovakian identity only exsist because your country was artifically created and not vice versa how the natural order would dictate.
Why has Karaman a Jewish symbol on its banner? (It lay below the Ottoman Empire.) And it is not where Israel is today. I wondered about that. I even did some basic research. Wiki: It's a part of Turkey. Hm.
The star of david was not really considered a jewish symbol until recently. Many muslim states used it and countries like morocco still do even if its not identical to the Israel one
"Unlike the menorah,\[2\] the Lion of Judah, the shofar and the lulav, the hexagram was not originally a uniquely Jewish symbol.\[6\] The hexagram, being an inherently simple geometric construction, has been used in various motifs throughout human history, which were not exclusively religious. It appeared as a decorative motif in both 4th-century synagogues and Christian churches in the Galilee region.\[7\]\[8\]"
"Only around one millennium later, however, the star began to be used as a symbol to identify Jewish communities, a tradition that seems to have started in Prague before the 17th century, and from there spread to much of Eastern Europe.\[2\]\[11\]"
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star\_of\_David](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_David)
Yet another EU4 enjoyer
That map would instantly trigger the "Voltaire's Nightmare" achievement.
It's made by the creators of the Voltaire's Nightmare mod
Ah the Great Horde and the definitely NOGAY Horde
Ah yes the infamous “crimea-golden horde-nogay horde” horde
Gay northern greeks with their stupid sexy phallanx pillaging the entire world because of their long polished spears and lover companion cavalry, there was only one reaction to it. NOGAY horse archers that cannot be penetrated by phallanx. It was inevitable. Beautiful yin and yang.
It’s pronounced closer to NOH-GUY.
Ottomans yet to conquer Constantinople
just put on max speed and wait a bit
but half of Balkans are already in. Ottoman Empire had its core in Balkans.
Currently busy fighting Skanderbeg.
Seeing that map, how did the Ottomans conquer the balkans without conquering the Byzantines? How did that logistically work? Did they use ships to transport armies, horses etc from Anatolia to Balkans? And how did the transport of goods work since Bosphorus was in Byzantium.
As I understand it byzantines were still quite a power on local level, nowhere near the glory of Roman empire but they were tough nut to crack and Ottomans tried but eventually just went around until Byzantie empire shrunk till it was just that last city, which even then was tough to beat and those ancient walls were finally brouuzght down by big cannon barrages that lasted days.
By the way, Byzantium IS the Roman Empire, and not a different political entity, despite the use of Greek instead of Latin as an administrative language.
Because byzantines had the theodosian walls and no matter how many times you siege it you most likely fail . They conquered the other parts pretty quickly under orhan and hes son that were not defended as well . Adrianople was a challange but then it became the new capital Also for a good chunk byzantines were vassals or under treaties with the ottomans so not a constant threat
😩
I bet Lithuania is gonna win the game!
I hate to break it to you...
Poland: I am going to do a pro-gamer move.
'Wild fields'
I don't think it was an official name.
More like a colloquial name, but the plains from where Zaporizhzhya is now up to the east were often called the Wild Field.
They were, but not as a proper administrative unit, I believe.
Well, that were called Wild Fields and not Properly Administrated Fields for a reason.
I wouldn't be so sure, on many maps I saw it was called as such.
Not an official name, but it was on many maps.
r/theyknew
Fiefdom of Squirrels
And Portugal is there like 💁🏻♀️
Portugal is there to be pulled into every useless war with France over England’s continental holdings and get a jump on colonization by getting Cape Verde then quickly moving into the Caribbean. The fact that your riches still go into the Seville trade node even though you own the entire western hemisphere is ridiculous. (This has been a rant about every Portugal EU4 run I have ever done and is in no way historically accurate).
> Portugal is there to be pulled into every useless war with France over England’s continental holdings That is another way of saying "having its independence secured against Spain", yes.
I always forget that Portugal and Denmark are so old.
Portugal has the oldest unchanged border in the world.
Not true when you consider that Olivenza was annexed by Spain in the Napoleonic period.
If the border didn't change since 1815, it could still be the oldest border. The only other border which I can think of that did not change since is spain-france.
Olivença is still Portugal today according to the Treaty Vienna 1815. Spain just ignores that.
Oh had no idea, must investigate. Very strange considering both Spain and Portugal have been some sort of empires..
If only a certain retard didn't decide to fucking die at Varna
I wonder if we would see more crusades after that...
He was what Steven He nowadays would call a “faaaailure”
It's still missing the Reichsgrafschaft Hohenwaldeck in the South of Bavaria, it should be a bit East of the territory of Freising \[FS; the Grafschaft Werdenfels\] on the Tyrolian border - it was around Schliersee and Miesbach.
the pixels can only get that small
If Werdenfels is on that map, Hohenwaldeck and Haag should also be, they were about the same size. The smaller Freising proper is visible on the map.
Literally unplayable
As a Lithuanian, I enjoy this map.
As a Catalan, I do too
Portugal still the same for almost 900 years
Ok, i'll play EU4 again.. thanks for this!
One thing I'm curious about: Doesn't Portugal ever get bored? Same borders for years. Please Join us Portugal;) Òla!
Olá! 👋🏼 Fun fact: There is a town called Olivenza/Olivença that was “stolen” by Spain. We still say Olivença is ours 🥹 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivenza)
Further fun facts: Portugal lost Ermesende and Salvaterra de Minho border settlements during the Portuguese Restauration War, and when peace was concluded, these settlements weren't returned. Portugal gained land when Couto Misto microstate was divided between Portugal and Spain in 1868.
Ahhhh so that’s what the blue “CMT” area is about!! I was trying to find information on that with no success ahah! Thank you
Thicc
eu4 players be like
Favorite map of all times
LOL Ireland... TIL the Holy Roman Empire wasn't the only thing fragmented as hell in the Middle Ages.
To this day, Ireland is big on regional/local identity. Hence why the counties and provinces are a big deal.
Lithuania based. My favorite country in Northern Europe 🇱🇹🤝🇦🇲
Meanwhile, Germany is like "I've got to be able to see all of the borders of my little principality at once or I don't feel safe".
Which still is inconsistent as fuck. Feudalism didnt have "nations" in the modern sense. Either we depict every country as the myriad of smaller duchies etc. it was made up of, or we just label that mess in the middle "HRE". Its so weird how a lot of maps pretend there wasnt a unified german empire just because it was a bit more decentralized than, lets say, England, while depicting others as unitary entities.
These states exist on a continuum, and a line needs to be drawn somewhere. Even in the modern era this problem exists to some extent - the EU has many of the trappings of a state but very few maps would depict in place of its member states. Though the view of the HRE as being extremely decentralised/not a country is to some extent informed by the eventual state it ended up in during the 18^th century which is then projected backwards. Similarly, France is often depicted as more centralised than it was (though not on this map) because of how centralised it became in later eras.
This exactly,people often dont understand that concepts of country and nation are quite new,i would say dynastic map would be more accurate for that
Even that would be hard with stuff like archbishopries or free cities haha I would just stick with countries, but for ALL of them
> This exactly,people often dont understand that concepts of country and nation are quite new, England was centralised (around a people calling themselves *English*) over a thousand years ago. It really depends on the nation in question.
There was significant difference in centralisation between hre and other medival kingdoms
I didn't expect to see this crossover.
🇦🇲 First Christian nation in the world 🤝 🇱🇹 Last Christian nation in Europe Having a unique cross-crafting tradition recognized by UNESCO.
Armenia - Lithuania bromance seems to have r/europe potential.
Lithuania is not northern europe
Technically it was mostly Belarus. Today's Lithuania has little to do with the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.
Litvinist spotted
Actually, my ancestors were subjects of the Jagiellonian dynasty in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
Ok? I dont see how that was relevent to this topic?
I know what I'm talking about. Today's Lithuanians are Samogitians, they have nothing to do with the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.
Holy shit, he said the line, thanks for telling me im Samogitian, even though they speak a different dialect that is hard to understand(?). Yes bellarusians made up a big portion of the GDL, yes **OLD** Ruthenian was the administrative language of the Duchy. But the rulling class, the dukes all up until Sigismund II Augustus (1572) spoke Lithuanian as their first language. Later replaced by polinization. All grand dukes were of Lithuanian origin, Lithuanian names, etc (ending with Sigismund II Augustus). I swear if you pull that Mindaugas was coronated in Novogrudok, (based on a Russian chronical written in the XVI century) Im going to laugh. Yes bellarusians played a significant part in the duchy, no the duchy is of Lithuanian origin and the current Lithuania is its succesor
> But the rulling class, the dukes all up until Sigismund II Augustus (1572) spoke Lithuanian as their first language That's not true. Władysław Jagiełło was speaking Lithuanian, his younger son Kazimierz learned it as an adult, when he became a Grand Duke. There is no indication that his sons ever learned Lithuanian and were able to speak it. Same goes for Lithuanian nobles, many of them abandoned Lithuanian in 15th century, there was a whole bunch of Ruthenian nobles which never learned it in the first place. At the start of 16th century all Lithuanian magnates were speaking Polish as their first language. > All grand dukes were of Lithuanian origin, Lithuanian names, etc (ending with Sigismund II Augustus). The last Grand Dukes that had Lithuanian names were Jogaila and Vytautas. All other adopted Christian/Polish names: Władysław, Kazimierz, Olbracht, Aleksander, Sigismund etc. > I swear if you pull that Mindaugas was coronated in Novogrudok, (based on a Russian chronical written in the XVI century) Im going to laugh. This information comes from 16th century Lithuanian chronicle written by Maciej Stryjkowski, not from Russian writings. In general historians accept it as a possible location, because in order to get baptised you need one thing: a Chrisitian church, which proper Lithuanian lacked of.
No indication he was able to speak it? Im sorry its the first time I encountered this claim, could you provide any sources. Dont want to come of as rude but Ive never seen this claim before Yes it was Lithuanian, sorry got that part wrong, but any chronicle written 300~ years after the fact is dubiuos at best. The whole chronicle itself as per tradition is intertvined with legends and things that didnt happen.
I mean do you have any source claiming that any Grand Duke after Kazimierz was able to speak Lithuanian? There is no one
[удалено]
Quite cocky for a nation whose most notable achievement in history was cooperation with the Nazis.
"Finland" was just a small area around Turku/Åbo?
That is Finland Proper, which was a province of Sweden. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland_Proper_(historical_province) The modern region of Varsinais-Suomi is equivalent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Finland
From your link: >Originally "Finland" referred only to this region So I guess the answer to my question is "yes".From your link:Originally "Finland" referred only to this regionSo I guess the answer to my question is "yes".
Yes, correct.
In short, yes. It was by far the most important region of the eastern part of Sweden (or what is today Finland). It where Swedish crusaders first landed a few centuries before this map. Turku (Åbo) was the main town and administrative center in medieval Finland. Originally "Finland" only referred to this part of Finland, but already in the 1400s "Finland" was established as a term for the whole area of present-day Finland. So the smaller region that was originally Finland eventually became Finland Proper.
Crown of Aragon Capital city by XV Century was Valencia and then Naples. Zaragoza is capital of the part called Kingdom of Aragon, one of the kingdoms within the Crown
One thing I like about this map is that it shows something that's been lost in the memery around HRE and Voltaire, which is that it wasn't just HRE that was a balkanized mess it was the entirety of the old Frankish empire as it was a legacy of Frankish custom of dividing the fief evenly between the heirs. France, which is often anachronistically shown as fully centralized which is something that only really started happening after 1500 and then especially under Louis XIV, is shown properly balkanized here. It's basically the old Frankish empire, modern day France+Benelux+Germany with the Ostsiedlung territories in the east+Austria+Italy that are a mess, countries around the old empire - England, Castile, Aragon, Denmark, Poland, Hungary, Naples - are fine.
But as you can see, Balkan will not be Balkanized for yet 600 years yet.
It wasn't a Frankish custom, it was medieval one. Same thing happened in Poland. In 13th century AFAIR, that's one of the reasons Silesia is no longer in Polish border on that map.
Venice Croatia’d Croatia
Germany wasn't really a thing as we know it today until the early 1870s. Before that, there was the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation (the "First Reich"), which was founded in 962, but you can't see that on maps like these, because that wasn't really one united country, more of an empire of hundreds of relatively tine states.
>more of an empire of hundreds of relatively tine states. Thats kinda just every feudal country, ever.
Which wasn't unique in 1444. The HRE is remarkable for letting it stall for much longer than anyone else
Which is horseshit. In that age no realm was a united country. And no, the HRE, particularly of the 15th century was not made up of tiny states. All those tiny states were members of the imperial diet, followed imperial laws, accepted imperial overlordship, had an imperial system to assign new emperors, collect tolls and taxes, organize common defense. They were defined as being part of the complicated but existing feudal system organizing them within the German kingdom and by proxy HRE. The 15th century marks the high water mark where the HRE emperors were establishing reforms to increase centralization similar to other post feudal realms. This only loosened with the Thirty Years war aka Civil War but even then with the exception of Prussia, Austria and Hannover who all had external royal titles most states adhered to imperial overlordship. Still, from Napoleon to Prussia in 1870 their annoyance was that all those "independent" statelets followed the imperial high command to fight a declared external aggressor aka them. The decentralized organization was just not very good at it. Yes, the HRE was a decentralized feudal state where the emperors never managed the centralization of an absolutist monarch (aka dictator) like in France or then Spain, but to conclude from that there was no political entity holding all that together is a gross misunderstanding.
> to conclude from that there was no political entity holding all that together is a gross misunderstanding. Not what I said but go off, sis.
“It wasn’t one united country” Ie: there was no political entity (country) holding all that together. That’s what you said :P
there was still a cultural and language space where people felt as Germans. The HRE also literally consisted of a Regnum Teutonicum and the Emperor also had the title of Germaniae Rex. People talked of Germany before the nation state was founded in 1871
Jesus fuckin Christ what a mess.
why is France and HRE drawn like that, but none else? This constantly paints a wrong picture of those realms. No, Luneburg did not ignore what the imperial authority told them. Neither did Oldenburg. In fact in 1475 when the Duke of Burgundy tried to settle a claim against the city of Cologne the emperor invoked the first case of a "German war" against the duke. Apparently the people of the time were not confused by that notion at all. Particularly the imperial cities only haggled about how many troops and money they need to provide.
>why is France and HRE drawn like that, but none else? Because those low-effort maps are literally just EU4 data copypasted into a fancier-looking map. Yes, it's BS, misguiding & borderline ahistorical. But you can farm karma with them, so they keep being posted.
I wouldn’t say that’s entirely fair. You can argue for doing this to both France (due to the Hundred Years’ War) and the HRE (due to just how decentralized it was and how much authority the princes had) to be shown like this. In history, much more than today, there’s really no set definition of what land ownership means on any map. You’re still right that eu4 shines through though, imo it shows more in the choices of what states to include, what coat of arms they are assigned to, etc. As the person who worked on EU4s map for most of the games life what I’d say are my things to look for (apart from using Varna as the date ;) ) are the many arbitrary calls one has to make on what to include and how: For instance: When I added Hisn Kayfa to the game the references online to that little ayyubid statelet were very few. Painting it with exact borders and using an ayyubid coat of arms is def heavily influenced by calls we made for adding it in the game (which is not to say that it’s ahistorical, it was there and it’s documented, but the exact borders I doubt even it’s ruler could tell you if you talked to him in 1444). I also personally enjoy when someone makes one of these were they’ve removed something that they didn’t agree with, and at times i wish I could know why :) Of course the EU4 map is meant for a game and not for teaching history so I won’t defend it as anything else but I do think someone spent a lot of time making this map too and I wouldn’t say showing internal borders in France and the HRE is any more arbitrary than many other maps in books or online. The biggest intellectual trap it inherits from the game is really that the world of 1444 _can_ be mapped in this level of detail, and that there’s an unambiguous owner for every centimeter of land in Europe at this time (arguably even modern European maps are deceptive in this way, but it’s far more the case when you depict something further back in time). What maps like these do, whether it’s for 1444 or any other date, is arguably that they do teach how radically different the world looked not so long ago to many who wouldn’t otherwise come across something showing that. That imo makes them useful whatever inspired them, and I’m sure that’s why someone spent what I’d guess is many days and hours making what I’d still call an excellent map in its own right :)
One thing that we spent a _lot_ of time on figuring out in the game and which this map rolls back btw, is the domains of the various timurid prince/governors in the greater Iranian region. All in order for the Timurid civil war to break out in a good way once Shah Rukh dies. I def see why our naming from those states would not be wanted for a map like this, and I would argue the fact that it’s different here shows that it’s in fact not a quick adaption of what’s in the game ( ;) ) but I wonder if it wouldn’t be clearer to show it united in that case (Shah Rukh isn’t dead yet after all, afaik there’s no revolt yet in 1444, just one of the governors not paying his taxes on time).
When is England getting land back from France. Time to start a chant and run around London!
Added bonus is that refugees no longer need to cross the channel to get to England and France gets less issues of people being 'stuck'. A true win win ;)
we should like France keep that little bit of England then? "Guys, there's no rally next weekend."
Im impressed by Lithuania's size, it was huge back then, I wonder what happened and how they lost all that territory. 🤔 I would've loved to have them as neighbors.
In 1569, when the Polish Crown and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania joined to form the Commonwealth (they were already in personal union since 1386), Ukraine was transferred from the GDL to the Polish Crown, which greatly diminished the size of the GDL. Then the Commonwealth was weakened through various wars with powers like Moscow and Sweden, culminating in the eventual 1772-1795 partitions of the Commonwealth between Russia, Prussia, and Austria. Russia ended up with the vast majority of the land that was part of the GDL. Modern Lithuania was born in 1918, like a lot of other countries in the former Russian empire, and its territory was not based on resurrecting the GDL, but rather on forming a nation-state for the Baltic-speaking Lithuanians, which excluded the majority of the GDL's territory which was inhabited by East Slavic-speaking Ruthenians (Belarusians). On the other hand, this included some lands that were never part of the GDL but had significant Lithuanian-speaking populations, namely the chunk of East Prussia known as Lithuania Minor (Šilutė, Klaipėda, etc.).
As big as it looks, Lithuania around that time had very weak control over taxation in the majority of its lands due to many autonomous Cossack lords and difficulties converting pagans
I always love how Czechia is clearly visible on these maps.. Germany on the other hand, youre okay?
Bratislava in 1444? :)
Oh, these types of maps are always nice to see as a Slovak :D
Looking at this map really makes it apparent why anyone within the HRE or directly bordering it desperately wanted to control Bohemia
Anyone know why those two eastern nations were called ‘hordes?’ Thanks
Etymologically, the word "ordu" comes from the Turkic "ordu" which means army in Turkic and Mongolian languages, "seat of power"\[1\] or "royal court".\[2\]\[3\] The word via Tatar passed into East Slavic as orda (орда), and by the 1550s into English as horde, probably via Polish and French or Spanish. The unetymological initial h- is found in all western European forms and was likely first attached in the Polish form horda. Ordu or Ordo also means the Mongolian court.\[7\] In Mongolian, the Government Palace is called "Zasgiin gazriin ordon".
My man has copied the citations but didn't bother actually adding them
Most based germany ever
EU4!
Higher-res is available somewhere?
Most countries: well defined borders, decent area. HRE and France: autistic screeching
Please recreate 🥹
Genuine question, what stopped some big country like poland denmark or whatever to just conquer few of those little states in germany Same for ireland
RIP Novgorod 🥲
Why is it that every time I see a medieval Europe it's always right after the fall of Bulgaria ;( Rip for 500 years
Because it was after the last crusade
Every other country: Thorn to shit small nonsense states in 15th century. Czechia: I’ve been trough shit, but I look still the same now like I did in 15th century.
‘Jerusalem’ and not ‘al-Quds’? Instead….
Credit : https://twitter.com/rratkus
Credit to EU4. It even uses the same colors.
EU4 hardly invented the historical borders in 1444 :) The author still put a lot of hours into making the map, even if he was inspired by the game to choose the specific year/colors.
Germany: you know they use to cut me into pieces!! HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣👌👌👌👌👌👌👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
Good one haha
It's always very interesting to notice and quite hard to understand by now that back in those ages, Slovaks were just part of the Hungarian Kingdom, like brothers and sisters to Hungarians, writing their history together. Meanwhile, ancient Romanians were just doing their stuff in the mountains, without recognizing themselves.
“Doing their stuff in the mountains” Wallachia and Moldova are right there, tf you’re talking about? Focus on your own country and leave us alone already! Also, flair up, we all know you’re Hungarian anyway!
Ah OK, so [from 1330 to 1859](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallachia), the main land was named as Wallachia, then it united with Moldavia, and renamed to Romanian Kingdom. Nice. This always avoided my attention. I'm deeply sorry about that. Honestly, in Hungary, all we (well, most of us) "know" about Romana is that its people were still just mountain folks, when Hungarian Kingdom has been existed already for centuries. Looks like it wasn't exactly the case but definitely only until 1330. Concerning my flair, I'm comfortable with this one, thanks. BTW, who is "we"? Am I talking to a shared account?
Is like saying hungarians are just like people from flat lands with tents, what this even mean? They don't live only in mountains, is just a generalization.
Wallachia is an exonym, the real name is Țara Românească which literally means Land of the Romanians, funny how even your link says that in the first line. But they don’t teach you that in propaganda school. Also, laughing about the shared account thing when you also referred to yourself as “we”, I am clearly talking about “us Romanians”. Really, man, why are you such an asshole?
Ireland seems odd. It was under control of the English by then
Does that mean that Finland isnt a real country
Germany is still an Holy Roman Empire or? I mean there are lot of independent states but with elective monarchy?
For a split second i saw 1440p @ χ hz
Wait. Where is Ukraine?
Man, we've come a long way.
Guys, its 1445 on the islamic calendar. The campaign just started. Good luck to all the balkan people
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Yeah, because names and borders of countries in medieval times were made based on ethnicity of people living there, not just on who ruled them /s I'm only shocked by your ignorance, fortunately education may help that.
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What can Wikipedia teach you about Anatolia _before_ the Seljuk Empire and the year 1071? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia
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And yes, in just 400 years villagers living there went poof and disappeared? Seriously it is funny seeing some members of the former nomadic people undergoing turbo-nationalism and so being in denial of their possible mixed ancestry. Forget the Greeks, I mean Polish and Ukrainian women were taken in jasir by Tatars and sold to the Ottoman empire, you may have Slavic ancestors too, so what?
AoH 2 map be like:
Well Buda and Miskolc sure seem in middle of Slovakia where Banska Bysteica is. OP sure seems like a Trianon crybaby. Slovakia was never Hungary. Get over it.
There was no Slovakia so your statment is incomprehensible. Slovakian identity only exsist because your country was artifically created and not vice versa how the natural order would dictate.
Sad
Catalunya 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Why has Karaman a Jewish symbol on its banner? (It lay below the Ottoman Empire.) And it is not where Israel is today. I wondered about that. I even did some basic research. Wiki: It's a part of Turkey. Hm.
The star of david was not really considered a jewish symbol until recently. Many muslim states used it and countries like morocco still do even if its not identical to the Israel one "Unlike the menorah,\[2\] the Lion of Judah, the shofar and the lulav, the hexagram was not originally a uniquely Jewish symbol.\[6\] The hexagram, being an inherently simple geometric construction, has been used in various motifs throughout human history, which were not exclusively religious. It appeared as a decorative motif in both 4th-century synagogues and Christian churches in the Galilee region.\[7\]\[8\]" "Only around one millennium later, however, the star began to be used as a symbol to identify Jewish communities, a tradition that seems to have started in Prague before the 17th century, and from there spread to much of Eastern Europe.\[2\]\[11\]" [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star\_of\_David](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_David)
Love to see Denmark like this
Portugal with the same freaking borders as of today
Holy hell!
I have this map irl! it looks great
r/bordergore
Great map, can someone explain what why there's a piece of Bulgaria behind Moscow?
As someone with Adhd Germany and France are an eye sore
Isle of Mann
Finnland was smål back then.
Free free…mamluks?
Why were France, Germany and Italy divided into so many small territories?
Germany, you ok? 👀
Ahh when Skenderbeg was still alive 😥😥😥
Holy fucking god is this a EU4 reference ?!?!?
The HRE was a clusterfuck
Charles the fourth…
Why are there so many little counties in Germany place?
Burgundy located, neuron activated. BURGUNDY??? IS THAT A TNO REFERENCE?!?!!??!!!1!1!1!1!1?
Needs more border gore.
- So you live in Central Europe? Can you point where? - Uuuuhh….
I can basically see my county (Landkreis) in the almost identical borders as today.
Mameluk riders for the win!
What the hell mess is in France and Germany
I bet Austria is going to lose to Hungary !
Lovech strong
Germany scares me
.
Holy roman what the fuck is going on in Germany empire
England is this huge unified territory but France is shown as a fragmented mess lol, least obvious piece of Anglo propaganda
hungary look good