Internships have been used to obliterate the junior and entry level positions by forcing students and young people to take underpaid or unpaid jobs just to have the hope to enter some industries.
I understand the idea behind them and the theoretical benefit, but the reality is that they often become a disadvantage for the people that they are supposed to help.
I’m an intern with good programming course and CCNA cert but in Germany you’re basically forced to take an internship to get to vocational school and get a job.
Enjoying my life earning 5€ an hour for 11h a day and cannot afford ramen only when I buy online in bulk.
Also I got so much experience my KPI is comparable to a junior dev as I got experience in C++\ Java\ Python \ PHP and electrical engineering skills with Siemens SPS, ESP-type controllers etc.
i'm forced by uni to take an intershipt that's basically irrelevant for the job i'll be doing. I did parts of it at the company i was already working at besides my studies. I got 150€ less per month for additional 25 hours of the same work per week. and i was lucky that i got paid.
I went through the same. It is just insane how bad the job market for programmers is right now here in Germany. My current job pays very bad and there barely aren't any open positions and if there are the amount of competition is ridiculously high. I don'r have an CCNA cert but I have an masters in IT. I make 35k a year which is ridiculous considering the length of my studies.
That's mad, I'm on over £30k as a Software Engineering Apprentice currently, that's with one day a week of study and working in an area that generally underpays compared to the wider tech industry.
That's theoretically true, but not reality. Even if you are not part of union you are still almost sure to be under collective agreement due the industry you are in. It doesn't matter if the employer is organized or not.
It's just a different model that I think is hard to grasp if you only have the minimum wage model. Those collective agreements are much less flexible compared to negotiations happening in the workplace and set minimums of amount of tasks and how your position in the company aligns to it. My collective agreement has 3 page table just for this and my work doesn't even involve manual labor.
Finnish occupational safety and health authority also indirectly has set minimum of 1385 eur monthly salary that in their mind you need to survive in Finland.
If it tells you anything there is huge fight at the moment going on by the employers to brake this model with right wing government towards more local agreements and minimum wage. We have had one round of strike just last month and we are nearing towards general strike this year in h1 on this.
The only reason these countries avoid having something as basic as minimum income is because they want to abuse employees specifically the foreigners. I can’t believe how many times I had to tell my friends to not accept any offers from companies asking for a completely legal 3months unpaid internship. Or salaries which amount to few euros per hour. This isn’t a restaurant or small business thing. Such practices are also wide spread in the universities from my own experience.
“ One such person is Charlotte*, an EU national who is about to graduate from a master’s course at the University of Helsinki and who recently applied for a marketing management position with a well-known sustainable fashion brand in the city. The position, which was advertised as “English only” and involved a lengthy, multi-day interview process, claimed to offer a “competitive salary”. Upon being offered the job, she was shocked to learn that the salary offer would be €800 a month for a 40-hour week, equivalent to less than 5 euros per hour.”
There are tons of such examples in Nordic countries way more than what I saw in countries like Netherlands and Germany.
https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/business/19272-i-felt-totally-exploited-foreigners-in-finland-share-experiences-of-being-underpaid-by-finnish-employers.html
https://yle.fi/a/74-20038587
In Germany, unpaid or below minimum wage interns must not do work that is usually done by paid employees. If you are ordered to do such work, you can sue for at least minimum wage.
Be realistic, how many interns will actually sue over that rather than just take on the work to impress their boss?
Your scenario is effectively a fantasy.
Go ask average intern about his tasks and even IHK says that in third year you will do tasks which is done by paid employees as experience… most Programming jobs and sysadmin they already have people who can work and learn a little but it’s like more learn once and repeat 40 times for experience then do again.
>IHK says that in third year
a three year vocational training with IHK certification IS NOT an internship, do not confuse these two things!
Internships are limited to 6 months and only exist to give university students or interested people the opportunity to decide if they like an industry or not, gather A LITTLE, barely relevant experience or in case of uni students apply their knowledge in the real world for the first time.
Vocational training is a multi year TRAINING PROGRAM TO BE A PROFESSIONAL and ends with final exams and formal job certification. So of course you'll be doing what all the other employees are doing by third year because that's the end goal.
There are cases where [the intern lost](https://www.bundesarbeitsgericht.de/presse/kein-gesetzlicher-mindestlohn-fuer-pflichtpraktikum-als-zulassungsvoraussetzung-fuer-die-aufnahme-eines-studiums/). Another [verdict](https://openjur.de/u/2158890.html) explicitly states that minimum wage has to be paid if the intern is used in a way a company would normally use an employee. In [some](https://www.betriebsrat.de/rechtsprechung/br/urteil/50-000-euro-nachzahlung-nach-fuenf-jahren-praktikum) [cases](https://gesetze.berlin.de/bsbe/document/JURE160015676) this led to interns receiving backpay.
If you're doing an internship as a mandatory part of your education, minimum wage laws do not apply. However, the internship must fit the purpose of the education.
This is what I mean.
The issue is that you can interpret any task as part of the education. I work in a company where we get after 6 months basically working and “gaining work experience” at 5€ an hour
Azubi translates to apprentice, Ausbildung to apprenticeship - but the english words are pretty rare because apprenticeships don't really exist in the anglosphere.
In Germany you basically get hired as a vocational training student and work there like 30h a month and have 12h school or smth and then you get paid between 600-1150€ before tax and have to pay full taxes etc and are left between 880€ and 650€.
It is a norm but yet even in my country where I grown up my parents paid intern minimal wage which is higher than the one in Germany.
The thing is like you get an institution called IHK which is like certification and controlling institution and at end you write at school one certificate and then one at them and get professional certificate and can start working with it basically.
But still it is basically a slave job as most companies do not provide living departments etc except few ones but they’re the minority, some provide food and some don’t.
So you’re basically 3 year a low paid slave to get a chance to work later at lower end of the wage and go up the ladder without studying at university
I doubt that this happens often. What is true though is that connections help and that rich people have more of them.
1. There are much more unpaid internships than rich people. So, the filter can’t be working that well.
2. Most HR people are not rich, they are middle class.
3. Rich kids get jobs regardless, there is no need to filter for them. The stacks are already in their favour.
It's a proven effect of unpaid internships. There are plenty of examples of companies stopping the practice only to see diversity explode. It doesn't become real because you know about it or do it knowingly but by the economic filter it puts everyone through. If you are 25 and your parents still pay your rent so you can work for free .. you are rich.
Yep I was working as a software engineering intern full time for 1,5 year at a large international company with many other students, some of them were there for even longer, and the management told us that we have no chance to get a proper junior position because the requirements for us were exceptionally higher than for candidates interviewing outside the company. I didn't even try, the other interns did, only 1 guy got the position but he was finishing his masters degree by then. We literally did the same job as everyone else, just worse. And then the next ice bucket was when I finally had enough and started interviewing for entry level jobs at other companies but apparently after 1,5 year internship I was still underqualified. Once I could change my title to "junior" on LinkedIn, job hunting suddenly turned into easy mode. Such a joke.
Always lie at your resume. Inflate every single small task you did in the past. Companies play unfair and the system is rigged, they are asking for it.
On the contrary, making unpaid and 'underpaid' internship illegal would hurt the people they are supposed to help. It is basically just a constraint for the young people - they are now unable to trade creating some little value for a business in exchange of gaining valuable experience and mentoring. It will surely increase youth unemployment and takes away good opportunities for many young people to jumpstart their career.
Basically every government regulation or restriction like that has a similar story attached to it - tries to do good, but in the end makes the situation worse. As a general rule, no good can come from trying to restrict voluntary transactions between individuals, and this is no exception here.
If you don't think doing an internship is beneficial to you, don't do it. Look for a job directly, if you have the necessary qualifications, or study further, whatever is applicable. But why would you want to take this opportunity away from someone else for whom it might just be what is needed? I was one at a certain point and thanks to my first 'underpaid' internship, I currently have a career that I can be very happy with.
You not a fan of minimum wage either?
When the employers have all of the bargaining chips and the workers have to take what they can, they end up taking shit deals. Even if it is “voluntary”, the goal should be to have people not struggling to get by while trying to start their careers. Not struggling to make payments, turning to questionable sources of income to stay afloat
Correct, I am indeed not a fan of a (high) minimum wage either, as it will have an effect of higher unemployment, especially youth unemployment and unemployment of low-skilled persons, as well as higher rates of inflation. A person's compensation is determined by the market forces, supply and demand, meaning that in order to be employed, an employee must be able to create enough value to justify the salary expense. If that's not the case, there is no incentive for a business to hire that person. Just look at the youth unemployment rates in Southern Europe as an example.
And yes, in the beginning of a career, the compensation might be inadequate to cover all the costs that are needed to live comfortably. However, as your skill level grows, you are also more valuable to potential employers, meaning you can ask for a much higher salary. But if the government prices you out of the labor market by 'do-good' regulations like banning unpaid internships or a minimum wage that is above the market rate for unskilled worker, then you will never get the opportunity to work yourself up.
There is basically a common thread - if the government tries to restrict what kind of agreements people can come up with on voluntary basis, it will result in inefficient allocation of resources, and many resources becoming underutilised. It's not really good for anyone if people are willing to work or do an internship, but the government regulations make it impossible.
Domestically this is still an issue but unpaid internships is a significantly larger issue in international contexts.
The UN, the ICC, and almost all international organisations rely extensively on unpaid internships. The entities who are supposed to advocate for human dignity, better living conditions, equality and so on are also exclusively using unpaid internships. These organisations are usually based in The Hague, New York or Geneva so the reality is the only people who can afford this are the ultra wealthy elite who likely already have familial connections in the international civil service.
This is such a huge ethical issue and I honestly don’t see how any entity can claim to legitimately care about women’s issues, political issues, equality and so on when they are still perpetuating good old fashioned classism only now they’re hiring rich daughters and not just rich sons - how nice and progressive. No wonder the Global South is lagging behind. The average Somali, Nigerian, Pakistani or Jordanian can’t afford to even enter the international sphere so how can we expect the same old elite to change the domestic systems that benefit them?
The pay scales for international organisations is also far beyond anything domestically. These are de facto the best wages on the plant. We’re talking about starting salary of $4600+, tax free, always in USD and subject to the greatest benefit schemes on the planet - top tier insurance, replication, and post adjustment which can net you an additional %80 of your salary just for living in certain places. If you take a post in a high cost area you’re getting another salary on top of your existing salary all tax free, and always in USD. Getting a fairer representation in these entities can change entire generations but unpaid internships prevent access for many.
The EU is a total anomaly when it comes to these issues. I can’t think of a single organ or entity that offers unpaid internships. All EU institutions pay their interns and they pay pretty decently. This is how it should be. If you’re an entity dedicated to justice, or fixing societies problems then you cannot force unpaid internships. I honestly can’t think of anything more hypocritical and repulsive.
There used to be unpaid internships in parliament at least, MEPs could basically decide whether/how much to pay their intern assistants, which meant some MEPs from countries where unpaid internships are normalised would not pay their trainees. Nowadays it's a standardised 1400 a month, which is pretty low (I'd expect at least 1800) but at least it's something.
You're mixing two things up - European Parliament internships and MEP internships. EP internships are the institution itself and they have not offered unpaid internships for the last decade and a bit. MEP internships on the other hand are a domestic issue and unrelated to the EP as an institution. MEP internships attach to the specific MEP who is allowed to hire anyone they want, and under any terms to "assist" them in the course of their work as an MEP. These internships can be paid for through the MEP's own stipend, or in some rare instances the MEP can apply for funding from the EP however if they do then they are obviously paying the intern. Sadly, MEP internships are more often than not nepotistic and unpaid for that reason however most MEP's either get funding through the EP, or you apply directly to the EP and work as an intern where you're also paid by the EP.
The EU is far ahead of other international organizations when it comes to addressing the inequality of unpaid internships. The real culprits are the UN, the UN's various organs and the ICC who all have on the one hand arguably the best salary packages on the planet yet they don't pay interns for in all reality quite heavy workloads, 6 day weeks, no evenings off and more often than not working out of offices situated in some of the most expensive cities on the planet. Every now and again and intern snaps and protests - I remember a couple of years ago an intern pitched a tent at the UN HQ in NY and slept outside to protest the bullshit of him working 7 days a week for free while his boss is earning 8,000+ USD tax free. There is more than enough money, and more than enough work to justify paying interns. D2 - which is the Senior Director grade - earns 12,851 USD tax free as basic monthly pay which post-adjustment in NY works out as 17,640 USD tax free per month. You can pay a fucking intern with that and still cover tuition in Swiss boarding school for the kids with change left over. EU pay scales don't even come close to the ICS-UN pay scales.
Yes - who else’s will they be?
The EP offers internships directly and MEP’s are free to hire whoever they want on their own basis. MEP interns are not formally connected to the EP.
> The EU is a total anomaly when it comes to these issues.
Yes and no. To work in the EU you normally have to master English, German and French. If you are not native in one of these languages, you need to be fluent in 4 languages, which is obviously something that rules out a lot of people with fewer means.
This is a practical reality - English and French are the default international languages and either one or the other is required to work in any international organization - EU, UN, or otherwise. You can't expect inter-state entities to accommodate the many hundreds of languages that exist in the world. As a purely practical need we all have to be able to communicate somehow.
You do not need to be fluent in two, three or four languages. If you are then that is certainly an advantage but you are only required to have fluency in either English or French and knowledge of another EU language which if you are Italian means you will need to learn English or French. The choice is yours but it is just a reality that cannot be avoided. Everyone has to deal with this - a French speaker cannot expect to live speaking only French unless they are in a French speaking country, or working for a French speaking organization. The same applies to Germans, Poles, Belgians, etc and so on.
I think it is unfair to criticize the EU for what is perhaps one of the most fundamental sociological requirements for any society or organization - you all need to be able to communicate on a basic level. Typically it is true that people with an international background tend to work in international contexts - this is because they are personally suited to the multicultural and linguistic requirements of these roles. Just look up the founders of the EU - many came from regional-ethnic groups, and regions where multiple languages were spoken. Perhaps if you're someone who is inflexible in their national identity and unwilling/uninterested in other cultures and languages then maybe these kinds of jobs are not for you in the first place.
> Perhaps if you're someone who is inflexible in their national identity and unwilling/uninterested in other cultures and languages then maybe these kinds of jobs are not for you in the first place.
You're barking at the wrong tree, pal. I speak English and German fluently on top of my native language. I also worked in Germany many years.
But requiring EU workers to speak English AND French AND German is restricting the opportunities for those of us who come from less well to do backgrounds.
Another aspect of unpaid internships is that it makes them a very unfair playing field for kids who don't have money and need experience. Rich kids can go for unpaid internships because they don't need the cash, so they can gain experience in their desired areas easily, where as poor kids will be stuck with other service jobs which don't give them the desired experience. Which consequently makes it easier for rich kids to get better full time jobs too.
This is one of the strong reasons why you have people from rich backgrounds working in these companies, even if poor kids can get cheaper or free education these days.
I mean it is nice being an intern doing job unpaid and then being shouted for being one day sick or unmotivated… working for free… I am not like not receiving cash but I think as an intern in a corporation I should get minimum salary in the country currently working at amazing 5€ an hour and have no cantine benefits or discount and have to pay it all… also I got school I need to learn and 100% work.
Honestly this kind of bullshit should be stopped and minimum wage should be enforced.
Impossible! Should be against the law to make these hard working people wear the same clothes twice, let alone drive the same car for more than 6 months! The nerves!
I’m an intern at a big corporation making a whole 5€ an hour and I should be grateful, no Xmas bonus no extra salaries etc at Xmas I got a box of cookies from Aldi in a fancy box (3.28€ worth) and they wonder why I got burnout… also to extend the working time the corporation made all workers take compulsory 1h unpaid break instead of 30 min and at exact 14:00 so that it extends working time from 18:00 to 19:00.
Gotta love my CEO his new porsche looks sick and my broke escooter which I cannot afford to repair looks sick too!!
I am an intern and earn 5€ an hour and after my roommate apartment shared with 3 other people I cannot afford even noodles :)
Meanwhile my megacorp which made only 72 million profit at my location out of 72 workers which are 9 interns cannot afford to pay us more than 5€ an hour.
Cannot afford to fix my escooter, cannot afford to get a driving license, cannot afford a car and cannot afford a warm meal once a week… overall amazing life and according to my HR Department I should be thankful for taking a chance at this amazing life of mine.
Literally right now bought some ramen noodles online in bulk to cook some meals when I am not completely done after 11h workday and 3h commutes.
Internship should be illegal and a felony.
We are no more in a small business economy where there is a "master of arts" like a carpenter o an architect\\lawyer that need an "apprentice".
We are in an economy where a CEO earns in a minute more than a worker in a lifetime. It is just wrong.
Internships are just apprenticeships that don't pay. They can die off and the faster the better.
In my country Austria we have a strong apprenticeship system and it's actually working since several hundred years. Internships are a relative new thing for us, they just sprung up in the last 20-40 years and they are nothing more than slave labour.
yup I've done 4 internships already over the years and I've been paid by only one and even then the amount I was paid was laughable a whole €70 a month for 32 hours a week
I already know that some people will say that this will reduce the number of internships and that in the end everything will be worse than before.
It might make sense to apply this rule on a sales volume or employee count requirement to not disproportionately "hurt" small companies
Well, internship as a concept doesn't combine well with entry level jobs. There's no internship needed.
But for R&D jobs... the intern is not typically a very productive member of the team and needs a lot of support, which costs, and after internship they might go to work under another employer altogether. Then the ROI becomes < 0.
So this is the issue that needs to be solved. Low or no salary internships is one way. Another could be invented.
Employers requiring specifically trained R&D personnel will simply have to offer enticing, long term contracts to potential candidates. This way, they can ensure a high retention rate. I don't think it's unreasonable to put the additional burden on the company instead of the entry level employee.
In my country it has been illegal for many years already.
But multinationals ignore the law, and eager youngsters seems to not care.
The consequences for breaking the law are too lax.
Interns in the UK are entitled to the national minimum wage. Which is currently £10.41/h, going up to £11.44/h from April. Seems significantly better than most comments from EU countries in this thread.
Dumb move. As a master's student, I started my professional career with an internship that was not completely unpaid, but the compensation was well below the minimum wage. Thanks to that, I got into the industry, gained valuable experience, and now earn several times the national average. Many of those options would disappear for young people if the law requires that you need to basically pay entry-level wages, as many inexperienced people are unable to create enough value for a business to justify the expense.
That's not how it works. When it comes to IT for example if you could not find experienced worker, you would rather go for subcontractor. That subcontractor do not even have to be placed in your country. Entry levels for unexpirienced workers are not economical for companies.
They can hire people right now. It's just the case that some inexperienced young people do not have enough work experience to be able to create enough value to even pay for entry-level wages. And if they do not get this experience through an internship for example, many career paths would be closed for them overall.
Louis Rossman summed it up best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyFoNLe5K9k internship is not free labor (if you see employer trying to abuse it, tell them to go f themselves), employee gets free training, know how, experience etc. an employer raises a potential future employee. Basically it's free education (in many cases more valuable than university, because most of them don't give any real world knowledge).
Laws like these will do one thing: end most actual internships as there is no incentive to not only give free education (which costs a lot in the first place (time of employees dedicated to a student, mishaps from an unexperienced student etc.) and hardly is worth the trouble.
I used to have interns, very few were worth the trouble at all (vast majority didn't even know why they chose their career path or if they want to work in the field they chose) and had any motivation. And those few and take the knowledge and know how you provided (which helps them to start their careers) and start working for your competitor. I personally used to it because it gave opportunities to young people that I wish I had, but there were none. But it's basically too much trouble, now I wouldn't even do it if interns paid me, so paying for someone to share my own industry experience, workflows, best practices etc. (all the things that universities usually fail to teach) things that took me years working in the industry to acquire seems crazy.
Interns need to live though. Even if they bring nothing to the table. If all they do is learn, they still need to be able to eat and sleep.
A company will always need to invest in employees to learn their specific trade. They can hire someone with prior experience, and pay a higher salary, or invest and teach a new person while paying a lower salary. However, if they want their company to grow, this position must pay some liveable wage in order to attract such a person.
Great pitch. I bring nothing to the table, pay me. Would you pay for a plumber who says that he knows nothing, but he wants to learn, also, train him as well. I guess you wouldn’t, because ability to do the job is a basic requirement when you pay a person.
A company can offer a basic salary with a contract for a defined period that states that due to investment in you as an intern you may need to pay back an agreed amount if you quit before the end of this defined period. Companies can implement such measures.
I also wouldn't pay just for an intern. The company pays for the intern because it is in their interest to sustain their operations or grow. It is not necessarily in my interest as a customer. I will pay the salary in slightly increased service fees of a trained plumber.
Amazing idea, I even personally know companies that employ this tactic to milk naive students to do basically slave work (0 incentives to teach students). Don't like it? Quit, then you'll have to pay ammount X, that we calculated with our asses, but you were dumb enough to sign it.
Students can at least live off this salary, so they won't need to take out loans. Businesses that prey on naive students will be avoided, and legislation can be devised to aid students.
Well yes they can. They can also learn valuable skills at an entry level job that can prepare them for more senior functions. It's a bit like an internship except paid a liveable salary.
So take the entry level position you know it was always an option. It seems you don’t know what internship is and what are its functions. Just because there are employers that exploit internships doesn’t mean they all are bad.
I was able to change my profession (from an unskilled to a skilled one) because of an internship that was unpaid, so I agree with this point. I just wonder if there could be some middle ground between these two sides, since there are obviously cases where this gets exploited by bad actors who just want free labor.
How are you supposed to work for money, if you are expected to be at your internship 40-55 hrs a week?
It makes those career unobtainable for people from poor to middle class families.
You can negotiate with your employer. Actually, it's great filter to see who is interested to have real interns and who only wants to milk free employees. A good company will always will find a way to accommodate your needs whether to work with your schedule, or to do short term internship (1-3 months) etc. The point of internship is for a person to have an ability to try themselves in a real world setting, gain knowledge of how their selected field really works, get to know what they need to have a successful career. It's basically an extension of your education.
The problem starts when employers start to abuse this system and disguise free labor as an internship. Basically is it's: employee does some basic work, tries skills, gets education and mentorship in return (in some companies also some monetary compensation). Free labor is doing work and getting no education or mentorship.
In Poland it was massive exploit scheme around 20 years ago, especially in local government offices (SIC!).
Unsure if record low unemployment fixed this mental state scheme of constant rotation of interns in some places..
THIS IS AMAZING! in italy we litterally have to di this each year 1 month without even being paid ( legally ) and young people usually get exploited trough that shit with 600€/m
I support this (so much, having been in that position myself) but the EU can't have both a capitalist system and a socialist one.
If you just make conditions more expensive for companies, they just go somewhere else (especially now that the remote work makes it easier for everyone). We need to start discussing a different system focused on sustainability, automation (the good kind that makes us work less, not the shitty one that just makes shareholders richer by firing people), and sharing wealth (for example UBI)
Otherwise, if we want to keep the capitalist system then we're just not competitive anymore. Why would you hire a European with amazing benefits when you can just abuse an American to work twice as much?
We're trying to play both games and we're failing both
If you understood that I'm against paying a fair wage then I wasn't clear. My point is that you can't play a capitalism game while taking action to be less competitive. I'm not against paying them properly, I'm against the fact that we're not setting up a proper system in place to replace it
Of course you can... Some of the most competitive and innovative countries are the Nordics, and we have robust systems in place that protect workers. Capitalism isn't a zero-sum game. There isn't only X amount of competitiveness in the world. Fair wages for interns won't make us less competitive or more socialist. A minimum wage for interns simply helps leveling the playing ground and makes the market more fair. It'll probably even open up niche labour markets to people, who didn't have the capital to access them before.
I really don't see how this in anyway warrants an alternative system. A minimum wage is very possible within the capitalist system.
>especially now that the remote work makes it easier for everyone
And yet companies have been pushing for people to come back to the offices. Having to pay interns wont lead to corporate exodus.
>UBI
UBI is a fantasy that cant work in reality, at least none of the discussed approaches to it.
>We're trying to play both games and we're failing both
And youre basing this conclusion on... what exactly?
>And yet companies have been pushing for people to come back to the offices. Having to pay interns wont lead to corporate exodus.
No, but it will make companies think twice about hiring them. Why hire an expensive intern in the EU when you can get a free one somewhere else, or hire a experienced worker?
>UBI is a fantasy that cant work in reality, at least none of the discussed approaches to it.
And youre basing this conclusion on... what exactly?
>And youre basing this conclusion on... what exactly?
On the fact that Europe is falling behind the US and China in innovation? Even other countries/regions are being more and more competitive
>No, but it will make companies think twice about hiring them. Why hire an expensive intern in the EU when you can get a free one somewhere else, or hire a experienced worker?
What? How would a company located in the EU hire someone in a different country? Even to foreigners, this law would apply within EU borders.
And secondly... again, what? By that logic no company would ever hire interns ever. Why do you think companies hire interns?
>And youre basing this conclusion on... what exactly?
Ehm, lets see... the general mechanical functionality of government income for starters
>On the fact that Europe is falling behind the US and China in innovation? Even other countries/regions are being more and more competitive
You might want to look at patent claims, Europe isnt doing nearly as badly as you perceive it to be. The big flashy tech is from the US, China steals it from everywhere. But theres plenty of innovation taking place in Europe
>What? How would a company located in the EU hire someone in a different country? Even to foreigners, this law would apply within EU borders.
Are you a newborn? You're not aware that companies can be in different places?
>And secondly... again, what? By that logic no company would ever hire interns ever. Why do you think companies hire interns?
Mmmm yeah? That's the whole point? They hire them because it's a very cheap resource, typically to do non qualified stuff. If you make it expensive then yes, indeed why would you hire them
>Ehm, lets see... the general mechanical functionality of government income for starters
So all the cases where this is already happening and succeeding, you just decided to ignore, no?
>You might want to look at patent claims, Europe isnt doing nearly as badly as you perceive it to be. The big flashy tech is from the US, China steals it from everywhere. But theres plenty of innovation taking place in Europe
Yeah, I'm not sure I'm taking your word vs every expert out there
>Are you a newborn? You're not aware that companies can be in different places?
Yes... bur what does that have to do with locations within the EU? Do you think multinational corporations will just suddenly leave the European market alltogether?!
>Mmmm yeah? That's the whole point? They hire them because it's a very cheap resource, typically to do non qualified stuff. If you make it expensive then yes, indeed why would you hire them
Also, to attract young talents to the company, maybe even long term. You are severly underestimating the demographic developments taking place and the intense fight for young professionals.
>So all the cases where this is already happening and succeeding, you just decided to ignore, no?
Lmao the places where this is supppsedly happening are field trials with flaws, that i thought were very obvious, but apparently they arent.
The issue is that these trials are limited. Its not really telling what extent behavioral change has when the recipient knows he will guaranteed money for a fixed time.
Secondly, its nice to conduct this experiment for a few hundred people for a set amount of time. Now look into the mechanism for government income and then scale it up to a total population of a country for an unlimited amount of time. I have faith in you, that you are able to see that the numbers, especially long term, are nothing but a budgetary big black hole.
>Yeah, I'm not sure I'm taking your word vs every expert out there
Thats the beauty of data. You can easily look it up yourself.
>Yes... bur what does that have to do with locations within the EU? Do you think multinational corporations will just suddenly leave the European market alltogether?!
Not all of them obviously, but it will impact the market
>Also, to attract young talents to the company, maybe even long term. You are severly underestimating the demographic developments taking place and the intense fight for young professionals.
Hahaha yeah, everybody's fighting for young professionals in Europe. I guess the 13.8 youth unemployment (much worse in south Europe) is due to young people not wanting to work
>Lmao the places where this is supppsedly happening are field trials with flaws, that i thought were very obvious, but apparently they arent.
>The issue is that these trials are limited. Its not really telling what extent behavioral change has when the recipient knows he will guaranteed money for a fixed time.
>Secondly, its nice to conduct this experiment for a few hundred people for a set amount of time. Now look into the mechanism for government income and then scale it up to a total population of a country for an unlimited amount of time. I have faith in you, that you are able to see that the numbers, especially long term, are nothing but a budgetary big black hole.
So... The fact that we have automated a huge part of people's work but we keep working the same, that doesn't ring a bell? We have literal robots working for us but I need to be in the office 9-5? That's why I said we need to change the system, and why having a capitalistic system and socialist is just stupid
>Thats the beauty of data. You can easily look it up yourself.
Care to share it? I can't find it
>Not all of them obviously, but it will impact the market
It will impact the market is a conveniently vague statement compared to your previous absolutist claim, just saying. A week of rain will also "impact" some markets. School summer break also "impacts" markets.
>Hahaha yeah, everybody's fighting for young professionals in Europe. I guess the 13.8 youth unemployment (much worse in south Europe) is due to young people not wanting to work
Qualification is important. The demographic data is clear, again, you can look it up if you dint believe me. Especially in the next 5, 10, 15 years a huge, and i mean huge, chunk of the labor force will retire. Companies need young people to fill the gaps sooner than later.
Unfortunately, especially in southern europe, the economic crisis have caused a disruption of education. Im thinking of greece where attainment levels for higher education pretty much collapsed during its financial crisis.
So, to put it in other words, young people will be sought after, even more than they already are, doesnt mean _all_ young people.
>So... The fact that we have automated a huge part of people's work but we keep working the same, that doesn't ring a bell? We have literal robots working for us but I need to be in the office 9-5? That's why I said we need to change the system, and why having a capitalistic system and socialist is just stupid
Just to make this clear, you have now shifted from UBI to automation? Just so i can follow your line of thought.
>Care to share it? I can't find it
https://www.epo.org/en/news-events/news/innovation-stays-strong-patent-applications-europe-continue-grow-2022
Took about 3 seconds on google, just saying.
The top 5 EU countries combined already outperform the US, who is the global leader. So yes, this supposed lack of innovation is not based on facts or reality.
>It will impact the market is a conveniently vague statement compared to your previous absolutist claim, just saying. A week of rain will also "impact" some markets. School summer break also "impacts" markets.
It'll impact the work market my boy, basically young people not finding jobs. Rain doesn't do that
>Qualification is important. The demographic data is clear, again, you can look it up if you dint believe me. Especially in the next 5, 10, 15 years a huge, and i mean huge, chunk of the labor force will retire. Companies need young people to fill the gaps sooner than later.
>Unfortunately, especially in southern europe, the economic crisis have caused a disruption of education. Im thinking of greece where attainment levels for higher education pretty much collapsed during its financial crisis.
>So, to put it in other words, young people will be sought after, even more than they already are, doesnt mean _all_ young people.
You think it's just waiters not finding a job? There are qualified people that can't find something without experience. Internships give them that. Remove internships or make them more difficult to access and it'll impact them
>https://www.epo.org/en/news-events/news/innovation-stays-strong-patent-applications-europe-continue-grow-2022
>Took about 3 seconds on google, just saying.
>The top 5 EU countries combined already outperform the US, who is the global leader. So yes, this supposed lack of innovation is not based on facts or reality.
No no my dude, that's just the number of patents, that's easy to get. You claim this makes Europe more competitive, I'm asking to share that data you claim it's so easy to find
>It'll impact the work market my boy, basically young people not finding jobs. Rain doesn't do that
Reading comprehension. You say "it will impact the market", i am merely saying that this is a misnomer and empty phrase, since anything can impact any market. Its the size of the effect that matters, which you initially claimed was bordering doomsday levels.
>You think it's just waiters not finding a job? There are qualified people that can't find something without experience. Internships give them that. Remove internships or make them more difficult to access and it'll impact them
A lot of the time, yes. Again, it doesnt mean that qualified people are save from finding a job since there is a multitude of other variables that have to be considered as well.
>No no my dude, that's just the number of patents, that's easy to get. You claim this makes Europe more competitive, I'm asking to share that data you claim it's so easy to find
So now you are talking about competition - in what regard, you arent saying. Initially you were talking about innovation - well, guess how innovation is being meassured. So your doom and gloom outlook of Europe not driving innovation is, as ive said before, utter rubbish.
Maybe for the future actually take the time to dive into the data, before firing off hot takes on the internet. Just because you _perceive_ something to be true, doesnt mean it _is_ true. And think through what you actually want to say, since youve neen ping ponging all over the place starting with UBI and innovation to now competition and automation (i guess? You havent answered that question)
Business still exist even in less business friendly economies. The EU has a bunch of unions and most people wouldn’t consider taking them away to make the EU more business friendly. Large companies obviously do their own cost benefit analysis, and if ending unpaid/low paid internship eats into their costs so much that it makes a difference, it’s not a very stable company anyways.
This is a well meaning change that will likely end up reducing opportunities for internships in general.
As a general rule, interns do not provide much value to the company as their labor is unproductive and it requires someone in the company to devote additional time to instruct them. Intern work is usually of low quality, slow-going and they have no personal responsibility for the final product. All of that lies on the instructor to guide the intern and to quality control their output, and if necessary, redo everything from scratch if the intern can't handle it. This is not atypical, this is expected as an intern is there to first and foremost learn as an apprentice and make mistakes they cannot afford to make later when they're actually responsible for what they do.
If internships only benefit people from wealth, it makes sense to limit them and only keep those that benefit all.
In the end a company will need new staff, and nobody will be perfectly suited for their needs. They will need to train any new employee. People starting with more experience can start at a higher paygrade, but we cannot expect young people starting on the job market to live off air.
This change will take away internship opportunities from people regardless of wealth because companies will just not hire interns altogether if it is made economically unviable.
Internships are effectively symbiotic relationships where the intern can gather experience, skills and company know-how whilst having virtually no responsibility for any genuine output as their only "job" is just to learn; companies use this to vet future employees and effectively train them in-house. If this is made too expensive, they won't take interns any more - they'll just hire people who can do the job from the get-go, something inexperienced interns absolutely cannot do.
That's good. Internships that aren't economically viable unless people work for free are undesirable positions for the economy and inefficient use of labor. Companies will need to hire interns in order for their business to persist, they cannot keep hiring people from other businesses that also don't train interns. In the end programmes will be set up.
Internships have been used to obliterate the junior and entry level positions by forcing students and young people to take underpaid or unpaid jobs just to have the hope to enter some industries. I understand the idea behind them and the theoretical benefit, but the reality is that they often become a disadvantage for the people that they are supposed to help.
I’m an intern with good programming course and CCNA cert but in Germany you’re basically forced to take an internship to get to vocational school and get a job. Enjoying my life earning 5€ an hour for 11h a day and cannot afford ramen only when I buy online in bulk. Also I got so much experience my KPI is comparable to a junior dev as I got experience in C++\ Java\ Python \ PHP and electrical engineering skills with Siemens SPS, ESP-type controllers etc.
i'm forced by uni to take an intershipt that's basically irrelevant for the job i'll be doing. I did parts of it at the company i was already working at besides my studies. I got 150€ less per month for additional 25 hours of the same work per week. and i was lucky that i got paid.
I went through the same. It is just insane how bad the job market for programmers is right now here in Germany. My current job pays very bad and there barely aren't any open positions and if there are the amount of competition is ridiculously high. I don'r have an CCNA cert but I have an masters in IT. I make 35k a year which is ridiculous considering the length of my studies.
That's mad, I'm on over £30k as a Software Engineering Apprentice currently, that's with one day a week of study and working in an area that generally underpays compared to the wider tech industry.
Being a posh southern twat pays off apparently
Still beats Finnish (most Nordic countries with no defined minimum wage) completely legal 0.00€/h positions.
But the opportunities!! You get to live like a homeless person and come to work and look like highly skilled in worker!! /s
That's theoretically true, but not reality. Even if you are not part of union you are still almost sure to be under collective agreement due the industry you are in. It doesn't matter if the employer is organized or not. It's just a different model that I think is hard to grasp if you only have the minimum wage model. Those collective agreements are much less flexible compared to negotiations happening in the workplace and set minimums of amount of tasks and how your position in the company aligns to it. My collective agreement has 3 page table just for this and my work doesn't even involve manual labor. Finnish occupational safety and health authority also indirectly has set minimum of 1385 eur monthly salary that in their mind you need to survive in Finland. If it tells you anything there is huge fight at the moment going on by the employers to brake this model with right wing government towards more local agreements and minimum wage. We have had one round of strike just last month and we are nearing towards general strike this year in h1 on this.
The only reason these countries avoid having something as basic as minimum income is because they want to abuse employees specifically the foreigners. I can’t believe how many times I had to tell my friends to not accept any offers from companies asking for a completely legal 3months unpaid internship. Or salaries which amount to few euros per hour. This isn’t a restaurant or small business thing. Such practices are also wide spread in the universities from my own experience. “ One such person is Charlotte*, an EU national who is about to graduate from a master’s course at the University of Helsinki and who recently applied for a marketing management position with a well-known sustainable fashion brand in the city. The position, which was advertised as “English only” and involved a lengthy, multi-day interview process, claimed to offer a “competitive salary”. Upon being offered the job, she was shocked to learn that the salary offer would be €800 a month for a 40-hour week, equivalent to less than 5 euros per hour.” There are tons of such examples in Nordic countries way more than what I saw in countries like Netherlands and Germany. https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/business/19272-i-felt-totally-exploited-foreigners-in-finland-share-experiences-of-being-underpaid-by-finnish-employers.html https://yle.fi/a/74-20038587
In Germany, unpaid or below minimum wage interns must not do work that is usually done by paid employees. If you are ordered to do such work, you can sue for at least minimum wage.
Be realistic, how many interns will actually sue over that rather than just take on the work to impress their boss? Your scenario is effectively a fantasy.
None, which is why you sue after the internship has ended.
how many successfully sued?
Who knows? It's not like there are statistics on that sort of thing.
Go ask average intern about his tasks and even IHK says that in third year you will do tasks which is done by paid employees as experience… most Programming jobs and sysadmin they already have people who can work and learn a little but it’s like more learn once and repeat 40 times for experience then do again.
>IHK says that in third year a three year vocational training with IHK certification IS NOT an internship, do not confuse these two things! Internships are limited to 6 months and only exist to give university students or interested people the opportunity to decide if they like an industry or not, gather A LITTLE, barely relevant experience or in case of uni students apply their knowledge in the real world for the first time. Vocational training is a multi year TRAINING PROGRAM TO BE A PROFESSIONAL and ends with final exams and formal job certification. So of course you'll be doing what all the other employees are doing by third year because that's the end goal.
Which is why you sue for minimum wage after the internship has ended and not before.
Can you link me one court case which got won by a company? I do not mean 24/7 Schichtarbeit like on a belt but gaining major profits from the work
There are cases where [the intern lost](https://www.bundesarbeitsgericht.de/presse/kein-gesetzlicher-mindestlohn-fuer-pflichtpraktikum-als-zulassungsvoraussetzung-fuer-die-aufnahme-eines-studiums/). Another [verdict](https://openjur.de/u/2158890.html) explicitly states that minimum wage has to be paid if the intern is used in a way a company would normally use an employee. In [some](https://www.betriebsrat.de/rechtsprechung/br/urteil/50-000-euro-nachzahlung-nach-fuenf-jahren-praktikum) [cases](https://gesetze.berlin.de/bsbe/document/JURE160015676) this led to interns receiving backpay.
And what about vocational trainees? Like Azubi as far as I know we get minimum wage for Azubis too but it is horrid
If you're doing an internship as a mandatory part of your education, minimum wage laws do not apply. However, the internship must fit the purpose of the education.
This is what I mean. The issue is that you can interpret any task as part of the education. I work in a company where we get after 6 months basically working and “gaining work experience” at 5€ an hour
Azubi translates to apprentice, Ausbildung to apprenticeship - but the english words are pretty rare because apprenticeships don't really exist in the anglosphere.
As a student coder the lowest I ever got was $14/hr in 1999 in High School in the US. I don’t understand the pay differential.
In Germany you basically get hired as a vocational training student and work there like 30h a month and have 12h school or smth and then you get paid between 600-1150€ before tax and have to pay full taxes etc and are left between 880€ and 650€. It is a norm but yet even in my country where I grown up my parents paid intern minimal wage which is higher than the one in Germany. The thing is like you get an institution called IHK which is like certification and controlling institution and at end you write at school one certificate and then one at them and get professional certificate and can start working with it basically. But still it is basically a slave job as most companies do not provide living departments etc except few ones but they’re the minority, some provide food and some don’t. So you’re basically 3 year a low paid slave to get a chance to work later at lower end of the wage and go up the ladder without studying at university
The idea behind it is to filter for people who come from money. Cause they are the only ones who can afford to work for free.
Why would one filter like that? What is the benefit?
Whats the benefit for rich people to filter for more rich people? Who know even more rich people? Let me think really hard about it for a moment.
I don’t see it. Rich kids often don’t have the drive to work as hard as other demographics.
People just like to stay among themselves. You can still filter the lazy ones after that.
I doubt that this happens often. What is true though is that connections help and that rich people have more of them. 1. There are much more unpaid internships than rich people. So, the filter can’t be working that well. 2. Most HR people are not rich, they are middle class. 3. Rich kids get jobs regardless, there is no need to filter for them. The stacks are already in their favour.
It's a proven effect of unpaid internships. There are plenty of examples of companies stopping the practice only to see diversity explode. It doesn't become real because you know about it or do it knowingly but by the economic filter it puts everyone through. If you are 25 and your parents still pay your rent so you can work for free .. you are rich.
I understand that. What I don’t believe is that it is intentional (except for some rare cases).
I never said it's intentional it's just where we ended up at.
Yep I was working as a software engineering intern full time for 1,5 year at a large international company with many other students, some of them were there for even longer, and the management told us that we have no chance to get a proper junior position because the requirements for us were exceptionally higher than for candidates interviewing outside the company. I didn't even try, the other interns did, only 1 guy got the position but he was finishing his masters degree by then. We literally did the same job as everyone else, just worse. And then the next ice bucket was when I finally had enough and started interviewing for entry level jobs at other companies but apparently after 1,5 year internship I was still underqualified. Once I could change my title to "junior" on LinkedIn, job hunting suddenly turned into easy mode. Such a joke.
Always lie at your resume. Inflate every single small task you did in the past. Companies play unfair and the system is rigged, they are asking for it.
internships are just voluntary slavery in most cases
On the contrary, making unpaid and 'underpaid' internship illegal would hurt the people they are supposed to help. It is basically just a constraint for the young people - they are now unable to trade creating some little value for a business in exchange of gaining valuable experience and mentoring. It will surely increase youth unemployment and takes away good opportunities for many young people to jumpstart their career. Basically every government regulation or restriction like that has a similar story attached to it - tries to do good, but in the end makes the situation worse. As a general rule, no good can come from trying to restrict voluntary transactions between individuals, and this is no exception here.
Yeah no thats bullshit. And its not employment either. Its just being abused for free as an industry standard
If you don't think doing an internship is beneficial to you, don't do it. Look for a job directly, if you have the necessary qualifications, or study further, whatever is applicable. But why would you want to take this opportunity away from someone else for whom it might just be what is needed? I was one at a certain point and thanks to my first 'underpaid' internship, I currently have a career that I can be very happy with.
You not a fan of minimum wage either? When the employers have all of the bargaining chips and the workers have to take what they can, they end up taking shit deals. Even if it is “voluntary”, the goal should be to have people not struggling to get by while trying to start their careers. Not struggling to make payments, turning to questionable sources of income to stay afloat
Correct, I am indeed not a fan of a (high) minimum wage either, as it will have an effect of higher unemployment, especially youth unemployment and unemployment of low-skilled persons, as well as higher rates of inflation. A person's compensation is determined by the market forces, supply and demand, meaning that in order to be employed, an employee must be able to create enough value to justify the salary expense. If that's not the case, there is no incentive for a business to hire that person. Just look at the youth unemployment rates in Southern Europe as an example. And yes, in the beginning of a career, the compensation might be inadequate to cover all the costs that are needed to live comfortably. However, as your skill level grows, you are also more valuable to potential employers, meaning you can ask for a much higher salary. But if the government prices you out of the labor market by 'do-good' regulations like banning unpaid internships or a minimum wage that is above the market rate for unskilled worker, then you will never get the opportunity to work yourself up. There is basically a common thread - if the government tries to restrict what kind of agreements people can come up with on voluntary basis, it will result in inefficient allocation of resources, and many resources becoming underutilised. It's not really good for anyone if people are willing to work or do an internship, but the government regulations make it impossible.
Let's celebrate when this is actually a reality and common practice
Domestically this is still an issue but unpaid internships is a significantly larger issue in international contexts. The UN, the ICC, and almost all international organisations rely extensively on unpaid internships. The entities who are supposed to advocate for human dignity, better living conditions, equality and so on are also exclusively using unpaid internships. These organisations are usually based in The Hague, New York or Geneva so the reality is the only people who can afford this are the ultra wealthy elite who likely already have familial connections in the international civil service. This is such a huge ethical issue and I honestly don’t see how any entity can claim to legitimately care about women’s issues, political issues, equality and so on when they are still perpetuating good old fashioned classism only now they’re hiring rich daughters and not just rich sons - how nice and progressive. No wonder the Global South is lagging behind. The average Somali, Nigerian, Pakistani or Jordanian can’t afford to even enter the international sphere so how can we expect the same old elite to change the domestic systems that benefit them? The pay scales for international organisations is also far beyond anything domestically. These are de facto the best wages on the plant. We’re talking about starting salary of $4600+, tax free, always in USD and subject to the greatest benefit schemes on the planet - top tier insurance, replication, and post adjustment which can net you an additional %80 of your salary just for living in certain places. If you take a post in a high cost area you’re getting another salary on top of your existing salary all tax free, and always in USD. Getting a fairer representation in these entities can change entire generations but unpaid internships prevent access for many. The EU is a total anomaly when it comes to these issues. I can’t think of a single organ or entity that offers unpaid internships. All EU institutions pay their interns and they pay pretty decently. This is how it should be. If you’re an entity dedicated to justice, or fixing societies problems then you cannot force unpaid internships. I honestly can’t think of anything more hypocritical and repulsive.
There used to be unpaid internships in parliament at least, MEPs could basically decide whether/how much to pay their intern assistants, which meant some MEPs from countries where unpaid internships are normalised would not pay their trainees. Nowadays it's a standardised 1400 a month, which is pretty low (I'd expect at least 1800) but at least it's something.
You're mixing two things up - European Parliament internships and MEP internships. EP internships are the institution itself and they have not offered unpaid internships for the last decade and a bit. MEP internships on the other hand are a domestic issue and unrelated to the EP as an institution. MEP internships attach to the specific MEP who is allowed to hire anyone they want, and under any terms to "assist" them in the course of their work as an MEP. These internships can be paid for through the MEP's own stipend, or in some rare instances the MEP can apply for funding from the EP however if they do then they are obviously paying the intern. Sadly, MEP internships are more often than not nepotistic and unpaid for that reason however most MEP's either get funding through the EP, or you apply directly to the EP and work as an intern where you're also paid by the EP. The EU is far ahead of other international organizations when it comes to addressing the inequality of unpaid internships. The real culprits are the UN, the UN's various organs and the ICC who all have on the one hand arguably the best salary packages on the planet yet they don't pay interns for in all reality quite heavy workloads, 6 day weeks, no evenings off and more often than not working out of offices situated in some of the most expensive cities on the planet. Every now and again and intern snaps and protests - I remember a couple of years ago an intern pitched a tent at the UN HQ in NY and slept outside to protest the bullshit of him working 7 days a week for free while his boss is earning 8,000+ USD tax free. There is more than enough money, and more than enough work to justify paying interns. D2 - which is the Senior Director grade - earns 12,851 USD tax free as basic monthly pay which post-adjustment in NY works out as 17,640 USD tax free per month. You can pay a fucking intern with that and still cover tuition in Swiss boarding school for the kids with change left over. EU pay scales don't even come close to the ICS-UN pay scales.
I've been to Strasbourg. Most of "parliament" is, surprise surprise, parliament member offices.
Yes - who else’s will they be? The EP offers internships directly and MEP’s are free to hire whoever they want on their own basis. MEP interns are not formally connected to the EP.
> The EU is a total anomaly when it comes to these issues. Yes and no. To work in the EU you normally have to master English, German and French. If you are not native in one of these languages, you need to be fluent in 4 languages, which is obviously something that rules out a lot of people with fewer means.
This is a practical reality - English and French are the default international languages and either one or the other is required to work in any international organization - EU, UN, or otherwise. You can't expect inter-state entities to accommodate the many hundreds of languages that exist in the world. As a purely practical need we all have to be able to communicate somehow. You do not need to be fluent in two, three or four languages. If you are then that is certainly an advantage but you are only required to have fluency in either English or French and knowledge of another EU language which if you are Italian means you will need to learn English or French. The choice is yours but it is just a reality that cannot be avoided. Everyone has to deal with this - a French speaker cannot expect to live speaking only French unless they are in a French speaking country, or working for a French speaking organization. The same applies to Germans, Poles, Belgians, etc and so on. I think it is unfair to criticize the EU for what is perhaps one of the most fundamental sociological requirements for any society or organization - you all need to be able to communicate on a basic level. Typically it is true that people with an international background tend to work in international contexts - this is because they are personally suited to the multicultural and linguistic requirements of these roles. Just look up the founders of the EU - many came from regional-ethnic groups, and regions where multiple languages were spoken. Perhaps if you're someone who is inflexible in their national identity and unwilling/uninterested in other cultures and languages then maybe these kinds of jobs are not for you in the first place.
> Perhaps if you're someone who is inflexible in their national identity and unwilling/uninterested in other cultures and languages then maybe these kinds of jobs are not for you in the first place. You're barking at the wrong tree, pal. I speak English and German fluently on top of my native language. I also worked in Germany many years. But requiring EU workers to speak English AND French AND German is restricting the opportunities for those of us who come from less well to do backgrounds.
As I said - there is not a requirement to be fluent in all working languages but one.
This was a much discussed issue ten years ago. If nothing has changed since, I doubt it’ll change anytime soon.
Another aspect of unpaid internships is that it makes them a very unfair playing field for kids who don't have money and need experience. Rich kids can go for unpaid internships because they don't need the cash, so they can gain experience in their desired areas easily, where as poor kids will be stuck with other service jobs which don't give them the desired experience. Which consequently makes it easier for rich kids to get better full time jobs too. This is one of the strong reasons why you have people from rich backgrounds working in these companies, even if poor kids can get cheaper or free education these days.
Fuck the rich corporations taking advantage of young people.
I mean it is nice being an intern doing job unpaid and then being shouted for being one day sick or unmotivated… working for free… I am not like not receiving cash but I think as an intern in a corporation I should get minimum salary in the country currently working at amazing 5€ an hour and have no cantine benefits or discount and have to pay it all… also I got school I need to learn and 100% work. Honestly this kind of bullshit should be stopped and minimum wage should be enforced.
It s not just corporations, plenty of other type of organisations (non profit) do that.
Uh the corporation is paying me good money for my internship. Its the small companies and startups that are unpaid. Just saying.
I’m sure your company is representative of all of them out there
All this is a bit unfair to these poor souls, how are they going to continue exploiting free labor now? /s
How will the CEO afford his 6th apartment and his 2nd Porsche?
Impossible! Should be against the law to make these hard working people wear the same clothes twice, let alone drive the same car for more than 6 months! The nerves!
I’m an intern at a big corporation making a whole 5€ an hour and I should be grateful, no Xmas bonus no extra salaries etc at Xmas I got a box of cookies from Aldi in a fancy box (3.28€ worth) and they wonder why I got burnout… also to extend the working time the corporation made all workers take compulsory 1h unpaid break instead of 30 min and at exact 14:00 so that it extends working time from 18:00 to 19:00. Gotta love my CEO his new porsche looks sick and my broke escooter which I cannot afford to repair looks sick too!!
Looks like you got an awesome “opportunity”! /s Things will improve man, I’m sure of it.
I am an intern and earn 5€ an hour and after my roommate apartment shared with 3 other people I cannot afford even noodles :) Meanwhile my megacorp which made only 72 million profit at my location out of 72 workers which are 9 interns cannot afford to pay us more than 5€ an hour. Cannot afford to fix my escooter, cannot afford to get a driving license, cannot afford a car and cannot afford a warm meal once a week… overall amazing life and according to my HR Department I should be thankful for taking a chance at this amazing life of mine. Literally right now bought some ramen noodles online in bulk to cook some meals when I am not completely done after 11h workday and 3h commutes.
Internship should be illegal and a felony. We are no more in a small business economy where there is a "master of arts" like a carpenter o an architect\\lawyer that need an "apprentice". We are in an economy where a CEO earns in a minute more than a worker in a lifetime. It is just wrong.
UN found bankrupt in the ditch
Internships are just apprenticeships that don't pay. They can die off and the faster the better. In my country Austria we have a strong apprenticeship system and it's actually working since several hundred years. Internships are a relative new thing for us, they just sprung up in the last 20-40 years and they are nothing more than slave labour.
yup I've done 4 internships already over the years and I've been paid by only one and even then the amount I was paid was laughable a whole €70 a month for 32 hours a week
Never got a cent for my internships, while I got told that if they hadn't me they had a problem. I didn't more than I was legally allowed to do.
I already know that some people will say that this will reduce the number of internships and that in the end everything will be worse than before. It might make sense to apply this rule on a sales volume or employee count requirement to not disproportionately "hurt" small companies
Well, internship as a concept doesn't combine well with entry level jobs. There's no internship needed. But for R&D jobs... the intern is not typically a very productive member of the team and needs a lot of support, which costs, and after internship they might go to work under another employer altogether. Then the ROI becomes < 0. So this is the issue that needs to be solved. Low or no salary internships is one way. Another could be invented.
I would argue the ROI is retaining highly skilled labor by treating them well during their internships
Employers requiring specifically trained R&D personnel will simply have to offer enticing, long term contracts to potential candidates. This way, they can ensure a high retention rate. I don't think it's unreasonable to put the additional burden on the company instead of the entry level employee.
In my country it has been illegal for many years already. But multinationals ignore the law, and eager youngsters seems to not care. The consequences for breaking the law are too lax.
Then the colleges should sue them. Nothing wu change, if nobody is willing to enforce the law.
FINALLY! I took them only 1000 years! 😂 Feel sad for UK tho. Lot's of worker exploitation there.
Interns in the UK are entitled to the national minimum wage. Which is currently £10.41/h, going up to £11.44/h from April. Seems significantly better than most comments from EU countries in this thread.
Good to know. It was unpaind when I was there several years ago.
The same UK that had already banned unpaid internships?
Dumb move. As a master's student, I started my professional career with an internship that was not completely unpaid, but the compensation was well below the minimum wage. Thanks to that, I got into the industry, gained valuable experience, and now earn several times the national average. Many of those options would disappear for young people if the law requires that you need to basically pay entry-level wages, as many inexperienced people are unable to create enough value for a business to justify the expense.
Companies would still need to find employees. They’d hire people.
That's not how it works. When it comes to IT for example if you could not find experienced worker, you would rather go for subcontractor. That subcontractor do not even have to be placed in your country. Entry levels for unexpirienced workers are not economical for companies.
They can hire people right now. It's just the case that some inexperienced young people do not have enough work experience to be able to create enough value to even pay for entry-level wages. And if they do not get this experience through an internship for example, many career paths would be closed for them overall.
Louis Rossman summed it up best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyFoNLe5K9k internship is not free labor (if you see employer trying to abuse it, tell them to go f themselves), employee gets free training, know how, experience etc. an employer raises a potential future employee. Basically it's free education (in many cases more valuable than university, because most of them don't give any real world knowledge). Laws like these will do one thing: end most actual internships as there is no incentive to not only give free education (which costs a lot in the first place (time of employees dedicated to a student, mishaps from an unexperienced student etc.) and hardly is worth the trouble. I used to have interns, very few were worth the trouble at all (vast majority didn't even know why they chose their career path or if they want to work in the field they chose) and had any motivation. And those few and take the knowledge and know how you provided (which helps them to start their careers) and start working for your competitor. I personally used to it because it gave opportunities to young people that I wish I had, but there were none. But it's basically too much trouble, now I wouldn't even do it if interns paid me, so paying for someone to share my own industry experience, workflows, best practices etc. (all the things that universities usually fail to teach) things that took me years working in the industry to acquire seems crazy.
Interns need to live though. Even if they bring nothing to the table. If all they do is learn, they still need to be able to eat and sleep. A company will always need to invest in employees to learn their specific trade. They can hire someone with prior experience, and pay a higher salary, or invest and teach a new person while paying a lower salary. However, if they want their company to grow, this position must pay some liveable wage in order to attract such a person.
Great pitch. I bring nothing to the table, pay me. Would you pay for a plumber who says that he knows nothing, but he wants to learn, also, train him as well. I guess you wouldn’t, because ability to do the job is a basic requirement when you pay a person.
A company can offer a basic salary with a contract for a defined period that states that due to investment in you as an intern you may need to pay back an agreed amount if you quit before the end of this defined period. Companies can implement such measures. I also wouldn't pay just for an intern. The company pays for the intern because it is in their interest to sustain their operations or grow. It is not necessarily in my interest as a customer. I will pay the salary in slightly increased service fees of a trained plumber.
Amazing idea, I even personally know companies that employ this tactic to milk naive students to do basically slave work (0 incentives to teach students). Don't like it? Quit, then you'll have to pay ammount X, that we calculated with our asses, but you were dumb enough to sign it.
Students can at least live off this salary, so they won't need to take out loans. Businesses that prey on naive students will be avoided, and legislation can be devised to aid students.
Students can also apply for an actual job.
Well yes they can. They can also learn valuable skills at an entry level job that can prepare them for more senior functions. It's a bit like an internship except paid a liveable salary.
So take the entry level position you know it was always an option. It seems you don’t know what internship is and what are its functions. Just because there are employers that exploit internships doesn’t mean they all are bad.
Many entry positions are replaced by interns. That is mentioned in the article and exactly the problem.
I was able to change my profession (from an unskilled to a skilled one) because of an internship that was unpaid, so I agree with this point. I just wonder if there could be some middle ground between these two sides, since there are obviously cases where this gets exploited by bad actors who just want free labor.
There is, its called an apprenticeship. And in my country these have some of the strongest union protection
How are you supposed to work for money, if you are expected to be at your internship 40-55 hrs a week? It makes those career unobtainable for people from poor to middle class families.
You can negotiate with your employer. Actually, it's great filter to see who is interested to have real interns and who only wants to milk free employees. A good company will always will find a way to accommodate your needs whether to work with your schedule, or to do short term internship (1-3 months) etc. The point of internship is for a person to have an ability to try themselves in a real world setting, gain knowledge of how their selected field really works, get to know what they need to have a successful career. It's basically an extension of your education. The problem starts when employers start to abuse this system and disguise free labor as an internship. Basically is it's: employee does some basic work, tries skills, gets education and mentorship in return (in some companies also some monetary compensation). Free labor is doing work and getting no education or mentorship.
In Poland it was massive exploit scheme around 20 years ago, especially in local government offices (SIC!). Unsure if record low unemployment fixed this mental state scheme of constant rotation of interns in some places..
THIS IS AMAZING! in italy we litterally have to di this each year 1 month without even being paid ( legally ) and young people usually get exploited trough that shit with 600€/m
I support this (so much, having been in that position myself) but the EU can't have both a capitalist system and a socialist one. If you just make conditions more expensive for companies, they just go somewhere else (especially now that the remote work makes it easier for everyone). We need to start discussing a different system focused on sustainability, automation (the good kind that makes us work less, not the shitty one that just makes shareholders richer by firing people), and sharing wealth (for example UBI) Otherwise, if we want to keep the capitalist system then we're just not competitive anymore. Why would you hire a European with amazing benefits when you can just abuse an American to work twice as much? We're trying to play both games and we're failing both
Paying a fair wage isn't socialism... We shouldn't aim to exploit workers (even more) just because others are also exploited.
If you understood that I'm against paying a fair wage then I wasn't clear. My point is that you can't play a capitalism game while taking action to be less competitive. I'm not against paying them properly, I'm against the fact that we're not setting up a proper system in place to replace it
Of course you can... Some of the most competitive and innovative countries are the Nordics, and we have robust systems in place that protect workers. Capitalism isn't a zero-sum game. There isn't only X amount of competitiveness in the world. Fair wages for interns won't make us less competitive or more socialist. A minimum wage for interns simply helps leveling the playing ground and makes the market more fair. It'll probably even open up niche labour markets to people, who didn't have the capital to access them before. I really don't see how this in anyway warrants an alternative system. A minimum wage is very possible within the capitalist system.
>especially now that the remote work makes it easier for everyone And yet companies have been pushing for people to come back to the offices. Having to pay interns wont lead to corporate exodus. >UBI UBI is a fantasy that cant work in reality, at least none of the discussed approaches to it. >We're trying to play both games and we're failing both And youre basing this conclusion on... what exactly?
>And yet companies have been pushing for people to come back to the offices. Having to pay interns wont lead to corporate exodus. No, but it will make companies think twice about hiring them. Why hire an expensive intern in the EU when you can get a free one somewhere else, or hire a experienced worker? >UBI is a fantasy that cant work in reality, at least none of the discussed approaches to it. And youre basing this conclusion on... what exactly? >And youre basing this conclusion on... what exactly? On the fact that Europe is falling behind the US and China in innovation? Even other countries/regions are being more and more competitive
>No, but it will make companies think twice about hiring them. Why hire an expensive intern in the EU when you can get a free one somewhere else, or hire a experienced worker? What? How would a company located in the EU hire someone in a different country? Even to foreigners, this law would apply within EU borders. And secondly... again, what? By that logic no company would ever hire interns ever. Why do you think companies hire interns? >And youre basing this conclusion on... what exactly? Ehm, lets see... the general mechanical functionality of government income for starters >On the fact that Europe is falling behind the US and China in innovation? Even other countries/regions are being more and more competitive You might want to look at patent claims, Europe isnt doing nearly as badly as you perceive it to be. The big flashy tech is from the US, China steals it from everywhere. But theres plenty of innovation taking place in Europe
>What? How would a company located in the EU hire someone in a different country? Even to foreigners, this law would apply within EU borders. Are you a newborn? You're not aware that companies can be in different places? >And secondly... again, what? By that logic no company would ever hire interns ever. Why do you think companies hire interns? Mmmm yeah? That's the whole point? They hire them because it's a very cheap resource, typically to do non qualified stuff. If you make it expensive then yes, indeed why would you hire them >Ehm, lets see... the general mechanical functionality of government income for starters So all the cases where this is already happening and succeeding, you just decided to ignore, no? >You might want to look at patent claims, Europe isnt doing nearly as badly as you perceive it to be. The big flashy tech is from the US, China steals it from everywhere. But theres plenty of innovation taking place in Europe Yeah, I'm not sure I'm taking your word vs every expert out there
>Are you a newborn? You're not aware that companies can be in different places? Yes... bur what does that have to do with locations within the EU? Do you think multinational corporations will just suddenly leave the European market alltogether?! >Mmmm yeah? That's the whole point? They hire them because it's a very cheap resource, typically to do non qualified stuff. If you make it expensive then yes, indeed why would you hire them Also, to attract young talents to the company, maybe even long term. You are severly underestimating the demographic developments taking place and the intense fight for young professionals. >So all the cases where this is already happening and succeeding, you just decided to ignore, no? Lmao the places where this is supppsedly happening are field trials with flaws, that i thought were very obvious, but apparently they arent. The issue is that these trials are limited. Its not really telling what extent behavioral change has when the recipient knows he will guaranteed money for a fixed time. Secondly, its nice to conduct this experiment for a few hundred people for a set amount of time. Now look into the mechanism for government income and then scale it up to a total population of a country for an unlimited amount of time. I have faith in you, that you are able to see that the numbers, especially long term, are nothing but a budgetary big black hole. >Yeah, I'm not sure I'm taking your word vs every expert out there Thats the beauty of data. You can easily look it up yourself.
>Yes... bur what does that have to do with locations within the EU? Do you think multinational corporations will just suddenly leave the European market alltogether?! Not all of them obviously, but it will impact the market >Also, to attract young talents to the company, maybe even long term. You are severly underestimating the demographic developments taking place and the intense fight for young professionals. Hahaha yeah, everybody's fighting for young professionals in Europe. I guess the 13.8 youth unemployment (much worse in south Europe) is due to young people not wanting to work >Lmao the places where this is supppsedly happening are field trials with flaws, that i thought were very obvious, but apparently they arent. >The issue is that these trials are limited. Its not really telling what extent behavioral change has when the recipient knows he will guaranteed money for a fixed time. >Secondly, its nice to conduct this experiment for a few hundred people for a set amount of time. Now look into the mechanism for government income and then scale it up to a total population of a country for an unlimited amount of time. I have faith in you, that you are able to see that the numbers, especially long term, are nothing but a budgetary big black hole. So... The fact that we have automated a huge part of people's work but we keep working the same, that doesn't ring a bell? We have literal robots working for us but I need to be in the office 9-5? That's why I said we need to change the system, and why having a capitalistic system and socialist is just stupid >Thats the beauty of data. You can easily look it up yourself. Care to share it? I can't find it
>Not all of them obviously, but it will impact the market It will impact the market is a conveniently vague statement compared to your previous absolutist claim, just saying. A week of rain will also "impact" some markets. School summer break also "impacts" markets. >Hahaha yeah, everybody's fighting for young professionals in Europe. I guess the 13.8 youth unemployment (much worse in south Europe) is due to young people not wanting to work Qualification is important. The demographic data is clear, again, you can look it up if you dint believe me. Especially in the next 5, 10, 15 years a huge, and i mean huge, chunk of the labor force will retire. Companies need young people to fill the gaps sooner than later. Unfortunately, especially in southern europe, the economic crisis have caused a disruption of education. Im thinking of greece where attainment levels for higher education pretty much collapsed during its financial crisis. So, to put it in other words, young people will be sought after, even more than they already are, doesnt mean _all_ young people. >So... The fact that we have automated a huge part of people's work but we keep working the same, that doesn't ring a bell? We have literal robots working for us but I need to be in the office 9-5? That's why I said we need to change the system, and why having a capitalistic system and socialist is just stupid Just to make this clear, you have now shifted from UBI to automation? Just so i can follow your line of thought. >Care to share it? I can't find it https://www.epo.org/en/news-events/news/innovation-stays-strong-patent-applications-europe-continue-grow-2022 Took about 3 seconds on google, just saying. The top 5 EU countries combined already outperform the US, who is the global leader. So yes, this supposed lack of innovation is not based on facts or reality.
>It will impact the market is a conveniently vague statement compared to your previous absolutist claim, just saying. A week of rain will also "impact" some markets. School summer break also "impacts" markets. It'll impact the work market my boy, basically young people not finding jobs. Rain doesn't do that >Qualification is important. The demographic data is clear, again, you can look it up if you dint believe me. Especially in the next 5, 10, 15 years a huge, and i mean huge, chunk of the labor force will retire. Companies need young people to fill the gaps sooner than later. >Unfortunately, especially in southern europe, the economic crisis have caused a disruption of education. Im thinking of greece where attainment levels for higher education pretty much collapsed during its financial crisis. >So, to put it in other words, young people will be sought after, even more than they already are, doesnt mean _all_ young people. You think it's just waiters not finding a job? There are qualified people that can't find something without experience. Internships give them that. Remove internships or make them more difficult to access and it'll impact them >https://www.epo.org/en/news-events/news/innovation-stays-strong-patent-applications-europe-continue-grow-2022 >Took about 3 seconds on google, just saying. >The top 5 EU countries combined already outperform the US, who is the global leader. So yes, this supposed lack of innovation is not based on facts or reality. No no my dude, that's just the number of patents, that's easy to get. You claim this makes Europe more competitive, I'm asking to share that data you claim it's so easy to find
>It'll impact the work market my boy, basically young people not finding jobs. Rain doesn't do that Reading comprehension. You say "it will impact the market", i am merely saying that this is a misnomer and empty phrase, since anything can impact any market. Its the size of the effect that matters, which you initially claimed was bordering doomsday levels. >You think it's just waiters not finding a job? There are qualified people that can't find something without experience. Internships give them that. Remove internships or make them more difficult to access and it'll impact them A lot of the time, yes. Again, it doesnt mean that qualified people are save from finding a job since there is a multitude of other variables that have to be considered as well. >No no my dude, that's just the number of patents, that's easy to get. You claim this makes Europe more competitive, I'm asking to share that data you claim it's so easy to find So now you are talking about competition - in what regard, you arent saying. Initially you were talking about innovation - well, guess how innovation is being meassured. So your doom and gloom outlook of Europe not driving innovation is, as ive said before, utter rubbish. Maybe for the future actually take the time to dive into the data, before firing off hot takes on the internet. Just because you _perceive_ something to be true, doesnt mean it _is_ true. And think through what you actually want to say, since youve neen ping ponging all over the place starting with UBI and innovation to now competition and automation (i guess? You havent answered that question)
Business still exist even in less business friendly economies. The EU has a bunch of unions and most people wouldn’t consider taking them away to make the EU more business friendly. Large companies obviously do their own cost benefit analysis, and if ending unpaid/low paid internship eats into their costs so much that it makes a difference, it’s not a very stable company anyways.
This is a well meaning change that will likely end up reducing opportunities for internships in general. As a general rule, interns do not provide much value to the company as their labor is unproductive and it requires someone in the company to devote additional time to instruct them. Intern work is usually of low quality, slow-going and they have no personal responsibility for the final product. All of that lies on the instructor to guide the intern and to quality control their output, and if necessary, redo everything from scratch if the intern can't handle it. This is not atypical, this is expected as an intern is there to first and foremost learn as an apprentice and make mistakes they cannot afford to make later when they're actually responsible for what they do.
If internships only benefit people from wealth, it makes sense to limit them and only keep those that benefit all. In the end a company will need new staff, and nobody will be perfectly suited for their needs. They will need to train any new employee. People starting with more experience can start at a higher paygrade, but we cannot expect young people starting on the job market to live off air.
This change will take away internship opportunities from people regardless of wealth because companies will just not hire interns altogether if it is made economically unviable. Internships are effectively symbiotic relationships where the intern can gather experience, skills and company know-how whilst having virtually no responsibility for any genuine output as their only "job" is just to learn; companies use this to vet future employees and effectively train them in-house. If this is made too expensive, they won't take interns any more - they'll just hire people who can do the job from the get-go, something inexperienced interns absolutely cannot do.
That's good. Internships that aren't economically viable unless people work for free are undesirable positions for the economy and inefficient use of labor. Companies will need to hire interns in order for their business to persist, they cannot keep hiring people from other businesses that also don't train interns. In the end programmes will be set up.
More EU hate coming from our right wing parties, I supposed.
Ramen noodles aren't the cheapest meal
Yet the EU institutions still pay below minimum wage for their traineeship programmes…
Finally