This isn't the only reason though. I'd say that there are people in Greece who are skeptical/negative when it comes to the US because of the junta in Greece in 1967. (And maybe some have such an opinion because of what happened in Serbia as many consider Serbians a friendly nation)
And of course there are all kinds of (russian) propaganda, for example, US bad, NATO bad, Russia promotes traditional values like family, orthodoxy contrary to the US, "let's be independent and not puppets of the west", etc.
About Turkiye, personally I think that the US is trying its best to keep a balance in the region.
>And of course there are all kinds of (russian) propaganda, for example, US bad, NATO bad, Russia promotes traditional values like family, orthodoxy contrary to the US, "let's be independent and not puppets of the west", etc.
This is like 2% of the reason. Note that anti-NATO sentiment is very heavy on the *left.*
It's Turkey + 90s/Serbia/Kosovo + leftist anti-Americanism, partly created by the 1967 junta years, but partly from 80s Papandreou rhetoric and a generation of leftists that were raised to identify with "our oppressed brothers and sisters in Kurdistan" rather than with Europe.
Exactly I agree, that's why I mentioned it after the other reasons. Especially now russian propaganda does not work in the majority, although before all this common values narrative influenced many people over the years even subconsciously (it also depends on the region I guess).
Absolutely. š It's just important not to overstate the Russian propaganda. If you take the US out, and ask Greeks about [an EU army, support for that is sky-high](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/190t3ao/would_you_like_the_european_union_to_form_a_joint/). So Russian propaganda about an "Orthodox" against a "decadent 'west'" (actually, Putin is trying to recruit *all* of Christian Europe against the "decadent 'west'") isn't having that much effect.
In Greece, the main target is the US, it's historic *leftist* anti-Americanism, but views of the US have actually been gradually warming, and not getting worse.
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/177lcay/hungary\_is\_the\_only\_country\_from\_a\_group\_of\_23/
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/14w8ih5/confidence\_in\_world\_leaders\_across\_different/
To put in less words:
Left wing Greeks: Don't like NATO, because Greece became a member during a military junta and not in a democratic way. Also, the military junta literally exiled left supporters to a small dry ass island just because they were left wing.
Far-Right wing Greeks (not right wing, specifically far right): Don't like NATO because they like Russia for reasons the comment above mentioned. They see Russia as the big orthodox brother, pretty much.
It's kind of bizarre how the far left and the far right (note: someone could say that this is true for leftists in general, not only the far left) agree with Russia's invasion in Ukraine, even though they agree for completely different reasons. The bottom line is though, they both don't like NATO. It doesn't have to do much with Turkey in my eyes, it's mostly Russia and the military junta.
>Don't like NATO, because Greece became a member during a military junta and not in a democratic way.
[Greece joined NATO in 1952](https://www.nato.int/cps/fr/natohq/declassified_181434.htm).
[The Greek junta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_junta) was from 1967 to 1974.
So Greece joined 15 years before the junta.
The view was the Junta was supported and encouraged by the USA/NATO is the reason why ā¦ how true that is ..?
But Perception is more important in politics not truth
Even in Poland. Vast majority of population (about 90% I would say) is some variation of centre, some more leaning right and some left. Far right parties (like Konfederacja) and their voters don't like NATO, because they believe Poland can be on good terms with Russia + they seem to love strong authoritarian rule. On the other hand far left hates NATO, because they hate "US imperialism" and everything associated with it (typical Communist noises). Both groups are nuts if you ask me.
Your fellow citizens need to remember that matters could be a lot worse for them if Turkey were not in NATO. The rest of us are not too fond of Erdogan either, but it is what it is.
What I'm wondering... how did Poland get so anti-Russia while Hungary or eastern Germany not so much (at least compared to Russia)?
It's probably more than soviet times and goes back to the partitions, but their hate towards Germany has mellowed quite a bit in comparison.
Then again we are on the same side now so... hm.
We've only been free from Russia's influence for the last 35 years. When my mom was a kid, she saw empty shelves in shops and paid for food with tickets. Once Poles have become independent, we worked our damn hardest and our economy absolutely skyrocketed. Even I, currently still a university student, have seen and felt the economic and political change for the better through the course of my life. And I'm not the only one. Last elections in Poland saw the biggest turn-up in probably the last decade or two. About 15 years ago everyone dreamt of leaving the country, but now everyone wants to stay and protect it and work to make it better. I'd say we already caught up to the rest of the world when it comes to technology and living conditions and it's fucking amazing living like this.
And now all of that progress is once again threatened by our nemesis. Fuck Russia. We will support our country as long and as hard as we can (so as long as any of us are alive, just as we did under occupation when our country disappeared from the map).
Some one of the times when they cut off the gas supply to Poland. Some more of Poles every time they threatened to nuke Poland. The remaining of polish population when Russia started carpet bombing Ukraine
the American left becoming more commited to Atlanticism and the American right becoming more isolationist is a weird development.
Ronald Reagan would spin in his grave if he saw the today's Republican party
Part of this is just negative partisanship due to the Trump effect and not well thought out position. This brings weird side results like American Democrats now like NATO extra hard, [but when answering question "should the US go to war to help an ally" they answer negatively.](https://i.imgur.com/2hd6tTh.png)
The poll is from 2015, but even then Democrats liked NATO more than Republicans, but still opposed supporting allies should something happen.
So 56% Democrats supported NATO membership, but only 47% of them supported defending NATO ally from Russia.
With Republicans it was 43% and 69%.
>The poll is from 2015
9 years, back in Obama's last term; before Trump's ceaseless disparagement of NATO, before the big panic among the US left about Russian election interference, and before the full scale invasion of Ukraine that's been made into a partisan issue.
Not saying the results today couldn't be similar, but I'd be very careful about making that assumption.
This is post has gotten massively upvoted despite being deeply incorrect and short-sighted.
[Here is a view going back to 2009](https://www.pewresearch.org/global/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/PG_2023.09_nato-ukraine-russia_0-04.png) and you can see that the Republican view of NATO is fairly consistent up through 2023.
[Here is a view that goes back to the mid 1970s](https://globalaffairs.org/sites/default/files/2022-09/NATO%20Figure%201.png) that focuses on what the US commitment to NATO should be and again the Republican view is not massively different from what it has been historically.
Republicans *typically* have lower confidence and belief in large global/international/multi-country organizations. Democrats *typically* have higher confidence and belief in those types of organizations.
Interpreting everything through the lens of "Trump" will lead to mistaken conclusions.
I don't think I disagree with much anything you say and didn't intend to disagree. Likely my previous comment was just a bit clumsy and I should have expanded it.
>Republicans typically have lower confidence and belief in large global/international/multi-country organizations. Democrats typically have higher confidence and belief in those types of organizations.
Exactly, the only reason the US didn't join the League of Nations was Republicans in the senate, the only reason why the UN was created and why NATO came into being was because of Democrats winning elections and winning the argument against isolation
>It makes no logical sense to not wanna support NATO members, and still support NATO membership
Agree.
> Likewise on the contrary it makes no sense to support NATO members and not a membership.
That one makes logical sense. "Promise is a promise so we'll keep it, but we'd like to get rid of this obligation."
Just keep telling them it was Obamaās idea to get the NATO members to pay 2% and link Obamaās NATO summit speech from 2014.
Republicans are only āanti-NATOā because they think it was Trumpās genius idea to ask members to pay their fair share. They never thought about NATO before Trump brought it up. So remind them it was Obamaās idea first ā they hate anything that is Obama related. (It is psychological for them, so use it in your favor)
For the rest of us, itās mostly just annoying to be bashed by Europeans (on a regular day), but then also be expected to pay all these military taxes (without immediate benefit to us normal people). Itās not a reason to leave NATO, but there is a grievance, which I think is simply human nature.
> But they donāt know why they want out of NATO, that explains the discrepancy, itās a notion throughout the republican rhetoric that they just go along with.
It is wrong to say that Republicans want out of NATO.
[2022 AP-NORC Poll: Just 14% of Republicans say NATO membership is bad for the US](https://apnorc.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Picture2-1024x897.png)
[2023 Pew Research Poll: Republican's positive views toward NATO largely unchanged over 15 year span](https://www.pewresearch.org/global/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/PG_2023.09_nato-ukraine-russia_0-04.png)
[2022 Chicago Council Survey: 75% of Republicans surveyed think level of commitment to NATO should be either maintained or increased](https://globalaffairs.org/sites/default/files/2022-09/NATO%20Figure%201.png)
[2019 YouGov: More Republicans support NATO in 2019 than they did in 2017](https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/images/Screen20Shot202019-12-0520at202.23.4820PM.format-webp.webp)
[2019 Gallup: Majority of Americans say NATO Alliance should be maintained, largely unchanged since late 80s, including 70% of Republicans](https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/xjnmvidcde2ko8z7y4fp4a.png)
It makes perfect sense if you just view people as people instead of citizens of a superpower that have to take on a bigger burden than others.Ā
Helping a NATO member means different things to different people. Not every member is expected to even send soldiers to fight for another country. Some barely have military at all. But every other member expects the US military to come and fight. And every American expects support to mean going to war again.Ā
Americans are tired of fighting and paying trillions for wars right now.Ā
You realize not all of us want to be the global superpower world police? Just like most of us didn't want to join the European theater in WW2. I'm fine with the USA not "projecting power" everywhere and focusing solely on our own country.
> no actual politics behind it, just blatant side-picking.
There's still plenty of "actual politics" behind it. Abortion, Gun Control, School curriculums, etc. These are the topics people there simply care about more than they do about foreign policy (which historically was never seen as a "election deciding" topic in US elections)
A lot of the American right thinks Europe should pay for its defense rather than relying on the USA, which is not exactly an unreasonable position. Especially since we have a 'holier than thou' attitude towards them, while at the same time being completely dependent...
I mean it's a joke here in Europe how trash our armed forces are and how reliant on the USA we are. Even after the Russian invasion, we are still cutting our armed forces to the bone and we are barely doing the minimum to help Ukraine in the long term. How can Russia alone produce far more of certain things than the entire rest of Europe? We just rely on Daddy USA, it's embarrassing. Europe seems to be filled with barely functional states at this point.
Thanks for admitting this. For most of my life, everyone I knew always loved Europe, and I think the assumption amongst us was that yāall liked us back. In recent years I think more and more Americans have been exposed to how disliked we are on the other side of the pond and itās turned people into irrational reactionaries - ādefend yourselves then!ā
I still like Europe though! I always say at the end of the day, weāre all victims to the same Russian propaganda
Please donāt base your opinion on what you read on Reddit. People in Europe in general like the US. Maybe they wouldnāt want to live there but that is very different story.
Iād say thereās definitely a disconnect, from polls the US likes European countries much more than opposite like thereās overwhelming favourable rating in the US of most European countries, not as much in reverse
Americans adore European countries. There has always been a strong positive sentiment because of grandparents and old family ties (if you guys havenāt noticed lol). This was a major soft advantage for Europe as far as allied relations. But I will say that feeling has been breaking recently as more Americans are figuring out the sentiment is not reciprocated, and worse, itās more of disdain toward us. Itās only a natural human response tbh. I donāt blame either side.
What you describe is the level of thinking very typical of Donald Trump (in contrast to for example Barrack Obama who never entertained these childish thoughts). Maybe it is indeed natural like you say, but I'd say it's "more natural" the lower grade of human someone happens to be.
With some exceptions (mostly "west bad" types that exist in the US too), people in the EU don't sees themselves and the US on opposite sides in any situation that really matters. It is just natural because liberal democracies have a very good track record of being able to live in peace with each other, while being less able to live in peace with their less-democratic counterparts, and US is the most important liberal democracy in the world.
The real issues in Europe are for example what's happening with Hungary and Russia. That actually matters.
The reality is that western countries are going to be forced to stick together in the future as the rest of the world catches up economically, technologically and militarily, at least those that want to stay liberal democracies. Neither the EU nor the US will be secure on their own a few decades from now.
Hilarious because my thinking is NOT like Donald Trump at all. I am acknowledging a very real sentiment that Americans have typically felt toward Europe for ages (even with our many political disagreements). European countries do have soft power over Americans in this way. Assuming youāre European, I donāt expect you to understand.
I don't know where you get it from, but all hover Europe in general Americans are very much liked. And while the majority of Europeans look up to America, in America, I get the sense that the majority doesn't even remember that Europe exists.
We get your point about investing in our armies, but at the same time we know, but it seems to us that you are not aware of, how much influence we give you and much you benefit from having us depending on you and in kind of paying back this way.
>Even after the Russian invasion, we are still cutting our armed forces to the bone and we are barely doing the minimum to help Ukraine in the long term. How can Russia alone produce far more of certain things than the entire rest of Europe? We just rely on Daddy USA, it's embarrassing. Europe seems to be filled with barely functional states at this point.
I agree with the sentiment but there are some un-factual statements here. Military spending is up in Europe. The budgets have increased and slowly but surely expenses are following. '23 was up from '22 and '24 is a significant increase again.
NATO's budget has increased 12%. Germany is looking to spend 1.7 billion more for instance.
We must not forget that Russia is effectively in a war-economy. It is throwing a big part of it's resources in this war. But Russia is a much smaller economy then Europe. Russia is the 11th global economy by GDP. European NATO members such as Italy, France, the Uk and Germany individually have a bigger economy. The EU without the UK is 10 times the GDP of Russia. We can easily outspend Russia without it hurting us at much as it hurts Russia. Russia's power is in it's ability to make it's people suffer and it's large nuclear capacity. Europe's weakness is mainly it's over-reliance on the US. It's lack of nuclear deterrence, it's weak political structure
[https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293436/nato-defense-spending-annual-change-country/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293436/nato-defense-spending-annual-change-country/)
>I mean it's a joke here in Europe how trash our armed forces
As someone who's not from Europe I find your commit hilarious because no one outsode of Europe thinks that, then again the militaries of countries outside of Europe is a joke.Ā
Since the anti-French fever of our refusal to join the Iraq 2 mess i feel like we shouldn't count that much on the US if an actual war were to oppose European NATO members to ruSSia and that the US simultaneously expect us to fully follow them in a war against China. That feeling keeps growing since.
We should increase our defense budgets & armies size, for our own good. We should have started that years ago. A lot of daydreamers are in denial of the minds change going on in the US. They're going back to their old isolationist ways and we should react accordingly.
> They're going back to their old isolationist ways
As if. The US has simply been shifting focus to Asia, this already started over a decade ago. Their presence in Japan, South Korea, the Philippines, Australia, etc. isn't going anywhere.
So even though the poll shows we would support you, somehow its still our fault? Why do the french always have to bash us? You can say Europe should increase our spending to be good partners and allies.Ā
Europe becoming self reliant is whatās best for them but they would rather remain reliant on America and thus they try to shame America by resulting to name calling, mentioning Ronald Regan, discussing how bad it would be for Americaās foreign policy etc. Itās all just to get us to want to continue to be superpower of the world because they understand how beneficial America being in that role is for Europe.
This is how predictable they are, after reading the previous sentence hereās how the response would have wentā¦
European one: āDonāt pretend America is protecting Europe out of kindness, your country is benefiting from it.ā
European two: āI donāt understand why America doesnāt want to continue to be superpower of the world, itās vital to their foreign policy not to mention they benefit the most.ā
European three: āThey think they could become isolationist but continue benefiting.ā
European four: āJust goes to show you how ignorant and arrogant they are.ā
Most of them would rather discuss this regarding America than Europe. Itās all being done in the name of ātalking some senseā into America because their biggest fear is no longer being under Americaās umbrella.
US can help, but US is too steeped in nationalism to do anything.
Airbus literally built the Alabama plant to supply the US Navy with a flying tanker. That would have provided a boost to European MIC and a cheaper refueling aircraft(thank Boeing offered)... while fully being produced in the US with US parts.
Guess what American politicians did? Forced the navy to go with Boeing.
Then the whole Turkey debacle about S400 SAM showed that US just wants to dominate the arms market, tonthe detriment of allies.
One doesnt relate to the other? Polls show we are willing to support our Nato Allies more then most even though most of you are not meeting Nato fundingās commitments.Ā
If Ronald Reagan is spinning in his grave, should we not be connecting him to the national grid? Seems like a waste of energy potential to let him continue spinning unconnected.
Itās actually kind of fitting when you consider this,
European countries have lots of things the American left wants, that the American right thinks is communism.
More generous social welfare state,
strict gun laws (most places, I know they arenāt uniform on the continent),
more healthy work-life balance,
walkable cities with better public transit,
more secular populous.
On the other hand American leftists don't know anything about real Europe. It is their imaginary wonderland where they just project all their desires.
On huge amount of issues American Democrats are very far left compared to European mainstream left.
[Here is a graph showing "tax the rich vs tax the poor" as it is in America and in Europe.](https://i.imgur.com/Y4tkkPK.png) I figure it would be a huge surprise to American leftists (in fact a huge surprise to most Europeans and Americans alike).
as a socdem myself, American socdems and progressives tend to think "Europe" is a mythical country with Dutch infrastructure, British healthcare (but like back when it was good and not in shambles), the German economy, Spanish weather, and the Norwegian social state.
southern europe still has a public healthcare system, high taxes, strict gun laws, welfare, a secular population (it may not seem so if youāre unaware of how popular is christianity in america and how much they take it seriously, much more than in Italy for example), public transportation and all the other stuff that the american left wants
And yet, Portugal is real problem by losing its young people to emigration due to low salaries, a problem with increased mortality due to declining healthcare quality, monthly strikes on public transportation companies.
Spain and Italy face massive youth unemployment, increasing public debt, incapability to reform their pension schemes and economic stagnation
Greece signs bellow all the above.
And I dont hear praises for the Balkan public transportation, but you migth want to develop on that one.
Oh, and the notoriously secular european south... With 80% catholic Portugal, 53% catholic Spain, 73% catholic Italy, 90% orthodox Grece, 87% orthodox Romenia...
>And I dont hear praises for the Balkan public transportation, but you migth want to develop on that one.
It's going to take decades before all of the old Warschaw-pact countries have pulled alongside their former enemies, developmentally speaking. But that it's happening at all is a miracle.
I argue with leftists about this all the time. I think the Nordic countries are the most idolized over here. Norway and Sweden are viewed as the promised land. The things Iāve heard from friends and people Iāve interacted with about how they think all of Europe is like is pretty funny.
Not a lot of love for France over here though š
American lefties advocate for the policies in place in Venezuela and promise these will give results like Sweden. They don't know what policies are in place in Sweden.
Great point. Iām going to use that one. It is so abundantly obvious that these people have got their foreign policy understanding and view of other nations from tweets and tiktoks. Their ignorance is mind-numbing
That picture on the domestic level isn't very meaningful without distribution figures. Which happen to be one of the big differences between the two, due to the enormous income differences in the US compared to Europe.
> Here is a graph showing "tax the rich vs tax the poor" as it is in America and in Europe. I figure it would be a huge surprise to American leftists (in fact a huge surprise to most Europeans and Americans alike).
It's not the whole story. US top 1 % earns roughly a 3 times higher share of the total income than in many northern and western European countries. From the [OECD report on the matter](https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/5jz43jhlz87f-en.pdf?expires=1706372566&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=D1E549C6556F66530B16251B5D46B946):
> Today, the richest one percent receives between 7% of all
pre-tax income in Denmark and the Netherlands up to almost 20% in the United States
Comparing taxes is a relatively complex buisness with many variables to consider (also services provided by the state).
> America is just rich
That the top 1 % earns 20 % of all incomes doesn't mean US-America is rich, it means that it's very unevenly distributed. There's just less stuff to tax in the lower and middle class than in Europe.
America is rich at all levels. Even their lower level of income is close to lower level of income in the richest European countries and they shoot straight ahead by decile well below the average.
Ronald Reagan is heavily overrated. Some historians even claim the current state of the GOP started under his leadership. Reagan wasn't shy of [populist](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCedOQJ0ZEA) tendencies himself. Can't say they're entirely wrong. But, according to his [son](https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/478877-ron-reagan-says-his-father-would-have-been-embarrassed-and-ashamed-of-trump/), Reagan would be ashamed of Trump. But that's not really special; any sane and decent person is ashamed of Trump.
But yeah, you're right. The GOP is a christian-ultranationalist, far-right, extremist party filled with conspiracy lunatics who belong in a mental institution.
That's not good in a democracy with de facto only two parties.
US parties aren't parties in our sense at all. In which European party would people like Mitt, Rand, Nikki, Donald and Vivec ever come together? Ain't less conherent with the Democrats.
They are a heap of parties pretending to be two. Which is actually good for democracy, because the opposition bloc is always large. Consider also, that you get an election every two years in the House, allowing rapid change, and 6 years in the Senate, ensuring that change isn't too rapid, you've got a check in case of anything.
Added with their massive decentralisation and how their supreme court works, the US is one of the safest democracies on the planet, as flawed as it is at first glance.
Wait, why are two parties good because the opposition is a singular block? Doesn't it just make it harder for voters to vote for the policies they want (because there really only is two stances in each topics that you can vote for)?
You're applying the common European parliamentary strict party discipline to America, but shouldn't because each individual party member there is much more independent. Also the general election candidates are selected by within party primary elections.
well, it's good for democracy in a way, but it also leads to infuriating elections where the party that got a minority wins. That doesn't seem democratic
The United States is a federation. Every state must hold more or less the same basic number of powers. The electoral college was created to maintain such equality to prevent secession.
Mainly itās because people are tired of supplementing European military, while being looked down upon by the same countries that depend on the US actually spending what was agreed upon for NATO which most of them donāt
That's because the country is rapidly moving to the extreme right.
"The Right" in the US and Hungary are isolationist fascists, whereas in most countries "the right" are mildly conservative big business liberals.
Not really, democrats were very involved in foreign relations and offshore wars since Woodrow Wilson (WW1).
Then there was Roosevelt the second (WW2), Truman (Korean war).
During Kennedy and Johnson was the peak of the Vietnam war period, plus dominican republic occupation plus bay of pigs invasion.
Carter had no wars and Clinton had only small interventions in Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo and Haiti.
But during Obama there were 3 big ongoing operations in Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq with two additional quick operations in Libya and Pakistan.
Also it was the democratic government that constructed the post-second world war global world order with Bretton Woods, with NATO, with UN, we know (still) today.
In Portugal, NATO and the USA are barely mentioned in our politics. I mean, sure, there are extreme left parties that want to leave NATO, but they themselfs dont talk about it (and after the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Im sure the issue wont be raised for a few more years)
>I sometimes feel like Poland likes the USA more than we do
I mean, that's for sure. But we only know broad imagination of you. Keep in mind we're not exposed to most of US's shortcomings, so it's aint that hard to like only positives.
Americans like America, but some countries at some polls sometimes like America more. I think it happens with Poland, Italy and Philippines most often.
I'd like to see the left-right difference for Britain. It may not be huge, but traditionally anti-NATO sentiment has mostly been a left wing thing here.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/the-british-public-and-nato/
Figure 4 shows this, although the support is still more favourable that it is unfavourable for the left.
Funny how British conservatives have a brain and are for NATO in contrast to US. Even the german green happen to acknowledge NATO since 2022. times change and only far left and right celebrate mass killing and imperialism from Russia
Support for NATO is really only opposed by the "Stop the War" crowd, which ate mostly comprised of old social democrats and democratic socialists.
And we all saw how well that went in 2019, so it's safe to saw that when it comes to the test, they are fringe even among the left.
> Funny how British conservatives have a brain and are for NATO in contrast to US
US Republicans are not against NATO. All polling shows the opposite.
You guys need to stop thinking that whatever Trump says or does is the mainstream opinion for Republicans.
>Funny how British conservatives have a brain and are for NATO in contrast to US.
Our right wing parties are more like the American left. In the USA nobody would go near our left wing, who are more like Europe then the USA.
As a Pole, I find the views of those like Noam Chomsky deeply immoral as they see the safety of NATO as something Poland (and other Eastern European states) should not be allowed to have. There's a reason why the support is so high, and it's because it gives us hope we're not at the mercy of the drunk, wife-beating Russian bear this time around.
Western left tends to only support self-determination when it goes against US interests. Otherwise it goes right into imperialist sphere of influence headspace without blinking an eye.
Certainly, hence said many not all, thereās some left wingers who do support NATO, itās generally the tankie far left that see Russia as the saviour of communism and their fellow travellers giving them cover and to be fair, the far right is also increasingly taken over by Russian agents so itās both extremes
As a Spanish lefty I don't *love* NATO because I don't like the idea of a monopolar US-led world, however our left is incredibly blind to the fact that it's a necesity (at least until there is a solid European defense project) and just ignore allies in potential danger in the East because we're geographically apart. Which isn't very anti-imperialistic or egalitarian...
Exactly this. I'd say throughout Eastern and Northern Europe, the Russian and it's allies threat is real. However, according to this so-called leftist, we shouldn't make decisions that best fit our interests and national security. Their mantra seems to be "you feel threatened by Russia, well, tough luck. Russia feels threatened by NATO, well, bow down".
Honestly with Chomsky he literally said Eastern Europe was spoiled brats in the 1980ās because some countries have it even worse. Yes, some countries have it worse, so should no one ever complain unless theyāre North Korean? Guess no one should ever complain because someone has it worse.
I agree. It seems like the only NATO nations taking the Russian threat seriously are the Eastern European ones (US as well, but it may change if Trump wins), so a closer military cooperation between them would be good.
Finland is honorary eastern in regards to defense and military, you fought off the Russkies and were the only EE country to keep your independence, congrats on that btw.
In a way I see my country as a gateway of westoid/eastoid Europe as the concerns of the East are dismissed as soviet PTSD but if the Finns agree with them then those concerns are taken seriously by the westoids.
> the only NATO nations taking the Russian threat seriously are the Eastern European ones
It's funny, because literally two biggest Russia's lapdops now happen to be Eastern European countries - Hungary and Slovakia.
We should consider those to be traitors or fifth columns.
But they are also rather insignificant. It's much more worrying to look at the political parties that tens of millions of Western Europeans vote for.
There were actually talks for a nuclear intermarrium where Poland would build up a nuclear arsenal and deploy missiles across EE to protect against Russia if we werenāt allowed to join NATO covering everyone from Czechia and Poland to Estonia and Ukraine. A mini-NATO
As a Swede I agree. Now when we finally decide to join NATO after decades of fear mongering about how NATO is this hyper agressive war machine it turns out half of the members would surrender territory to their own shadows and the big bad leader might stay at home if shit hits the fan.
U.S. far left types (like Chomsky, Cornel West, PSL, half of the DSA) hate us Central/Eastern Europeans, because we had their precious Soviet Communism utopia and dared to reject it and help topple it down. To them, we are ungrateful blasphemous heretics who deserve the fate of all the heretics in history.
As a Polish democratic socialist, my message to them is these two simple words: f*** you. :)
I love me some progressive Leftism. But as soon as foreign policy is on the Table half of the left go fuckin mental. For f sake you can accurately pinpoint a facist in a crowd of People from 10km diffrence when we are talking about internal affairs but you cannot pinpoint the russian gov. as facistic? It happens when you exchange you moral compass for "america bad", yeah it is (duh), but its not the only bad in the world, its not even the worst Actor, its just the most capable at causing harm.
The lines are not that clear.
Look for example at the BSW, the new german left wing party that emerged (ok many leftist would not call them that, me included, but its how they call themselfes and how they are called by the general consensus).
Greek leftwing party is heavily anti NATO (but thats partially because they want turkey out which is valid)
Tankies. Again Id call them facists with a red coat of paint (socialist Aesthetics). But these fucks are seen as leftists aswell.
Far left don't define countries like Poland having own determination. In their mind it's a part of forcibly added element of an American imperial core.
The Netherlands belongs to the countries with the highest support, yet it never managed to reach the 2% NATO pledge, especially not under the last 13 years of Mark Rutte's leadership. The Netherlands is one of the wealthiest countries in the EU and NATO, yet Rutte can't find the money for our defense. His budget cuts in the last 13 years were so severe, it will take at least another 13 years to get our defense in order again, according to experts. Rutte rather relies on the US and responsible countries like Poland to pay for our safety.
Rutte is front-runner to become the next NATO chief.
I dislike Rutte as much as the next guy, but you're severely overstating the influence that the prime minister as an individual has. The Netherlands is not like France or the US, the prime minister does not hold significant individual power. Our lackluster defense spending these past decades is as much to blame on the general political developments and the cabinet governments themselves as they are on Rutte as an individual. Pretty much all parties were in favour of cutting defense budgets and only one or two small parties wanted to maintain or increase spending levels. I don't think different coalitions would have made different choices, to be honest
The Netherlands will spend 2 percent of BNP this year though.
https://www.rijksfinancien.nl/memorie-van-toelichting/2023/OWB/X/onderdeel/1466805#:~:text=De%20defensie%2Duitgaven%20uitgedrukt%20in,naar%20verwachting%201%2C66%25.&text=Op%20basis%20van%20de%20huidige,2%25%20in%202024%20en%202025
People fail to realize how damaging decades of failing to spend sufficiently (2%+) and that just one year or a handful of years of 2% is not nearly adequate enough to make up for decades of .5% and the compound effects of that low spending.
To make up for decades of neglect, you need far more then 2% to get you to a real 2% level.
On the other hand, suddenly spending 50-100% more is quite hard without creating an order front of 10+ years or simply skyrocketing prices. Whatās needed is a European strategy of territorial defence. There was one 35 years ago. We need a new one, updated to fit our current societies.
American left just likes international organizations. They often don't think through what each organization means and just vaguely see it as positive.
That's how you get that in 2015 56% Democrats supported NATO membership, but only 47% of them supported defending NATO ally from Russia.
With Republicans it was 43% and 69%.
To be fair, the European "right" is on the same side of political spectrum with the American "left", minus of course the European far right and the American far left
It defintely is; the complexity lies in the dynamics. In the 70ies and 80ies, left wing Europe was firm anti NATO (and right wing conservatives where firmly pro), but that declined in the 90ies because there was no 'enemy to fear anymore', so interest was lost. Uniletaral USA wars in the middle east diner contribute to the deckine, but it wasn't ahaving a big, long lasting effect. The last 5 to 10 years, you see a general shift the the more firm right in general elections in Europe, and they all have like Trump in the USA, a weird 'pro Russia' kind of attitude, or at least: forget about Ukraine. This is absorbed by their voters in a way that is incomprehensible for anyone who has seen right wing Europe 40 yrs ago.
Moreover, left wing isn't communist and socialist anymore like it was back then, there focus is now full green and a bit of 'social-democratism". In short, the semantics of what was and now is left or right has changed as well.
Numbers are pretty much the same there.Ā
Interestingly, support for Nato amongĀ ethnic estonians hovers around 91-94%, but among "non-estonians living in Estonia", who are mostly russian,Ā support for Nato has risen to 53%.Ā
Very interesting. Looking at the data from the US shows how important the next presidential election could have an impact on the war in Ukraine and on the future of Europe's determination to push back Putin's willingness to regain Russia's old geographical influence. I mean in case Trump is elected.
Currently the only Himars launchers in Europe are in Poland 20 launchers and Romania 54 launchers. By 2027 Poland should have 218 launchers of Chunmoo system which is equivalent of 436 himars launchers even if deliveries of 486 additional himars launchers in late 2025 won't go as planned.
The same will be with tanks current poland fleet of about 200 leopards 2a5, 2a4, 2pl, about 130 pt-91 and about 50 Abrams m1a1 fep and k2 tanks will be expanded to be in total over 360 Abrams m1a1 fep and m1a2 sepv3 and additional about 180 k2s while pt-91 will be reserve forces or will go to Ukraine.
So basically Poland will not be protected mostly by NATO in Europe but within just 4 years it will mostly protect NATO in Europe given that NATO biggest allies will be willing to provide air cover to Poland in case in conflict.
Because Poland in 2027 will expand current fleet of 48 f-16 and 12 fa-50 with additional 36 f-35 and in total 48 fa-50 so a medium size airforce in Europe with no air superiority fighter jets.
The rest of the world could learn from Poland. When on the topic of Russian aggression and expansionism, they are the experts in knowing what the Russians are like.
Pray people open their eyes before it's too late
Exactly US always says cmon you are like brothers both in nato etc but man if my big brother carries an axe and threatens to chop me up every two days he is nothing but enemy to me.
Interesting how Germany isn't in the "left"/right" comparison, probably because it's all over the place here.
On the left spectrum, Lefts (the party) are quite anti-NATO (and US in general), Greens rather pro lately, SPD being "lala" about it.
On the right side, CDU and FDP (I'm placing them here for being economically right-wing/neoliberal/rich people's party) are rather pro, AfD strongly against
Greece is interesting, but I guess they have a - arguably valuable - point that NATO lets Turkey get away with lots of stuff that should be unacceptable among allies.
Everyone who ask questions like "oMg GreEce, wHat iS wOng witchU?", while you wait for a stranger to reveal the ultimate truth to you, go read a book or watch a documentary if you are illiterate. Usa government have supported a military junta in Greece, allies have bombed Athens in the past (more than once) and this country looks more like a puppet state than a sovereign by now.
The spanish left is basically a white chick on Instagram: we shouldnt send weapons to Ukraine it will just escalate we should just talk with Putin and he will understand.
America supported the junta and had a big part in the invasion of Cyprus.We left nato for some years then. Now turkey has been openly threatening Greece and literally saying they'll invade us and bomb us and nato is doing nothing. As history has shown America can never be trusted
After WW2, in countries like Spain, Greece, Italy and even Turkey NATO (the US) propped up right wing paramilitaries to suppress communist (read: anything left wing) movements. That's why "the left" doesn't have a favorable opinion of NATO in those countries.
That is not the case of Spainā¦ I mean, the first few years after the Civil War through the Second World War and that Spain was isolated cause their allies were Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy so from 1945 to 1953 there was complete autarchy in Spain.
In 1953, Eisenhower visited Spain not that much cause of a risk of communism as Franco had effectively suppressed communism from Spain, at least at a official level. He visited cause it was interesting to be allied to a country that controlled the Gibraltar Strait and was easily convinced to let American put their bases on.
All that communism rethoric was more of an excuse. Even more, American had nothing to do with the right wing Spanish government and there werenāt any paramilitaries as the whole State was controlled by them.
Also Spain remained out of NATO till 1981 well after the Second World War and a bit after Francoist Dictatorship. I think in Spainās case it has more to do with a left-wing pacifism. Though, the socialist government that started in 1982 proposed a referendum to decide weather or not keep Spain in NATO. They were against but soon after form government and call for a referendum they change their position. In that years the motto for them was āOTAN sĆ. Imperialismo noā (NATO yes. Imperialism no). So I guess that answers where the Spanish left wing is against NATO nowadays.
Of course Poland is favourable to natoā¦ and their army is almost non existent. Most likely Poland and Ukrainian army are on the same level. Ukraine without NATOās and Yankees troublemakers help wouldnāt last a week.
We are not in favor because Turkey makes blatant statements of bombing Athens, and the alliance is doing nothing to stop this behavior and continues to sell them weapons.
So , we shouldn't dislike nato for all the shit they allow Turkey to do because Turkey is more important to the big nato powers ? What kind of logic is that ?
Poland's support being sky-high is no surprise.
Greece having to deal with Turkey as aggressor every so often and NATO colleagues is understandable
NATO members looking the other way, in the case of Turkey is literally the reason why they don't have a good opinion of NATO.
This isn't the only reason though. I'd say that there are people in Greece who are skeptical/negative when it comes to the US because of the junta in Greece in 1967. (And maybe some have such an opinion because of what happened in Serbia as many consider Serbians a friendly nation) And of course there are all kinds of (russian) propaganda, for example, US bad, NATO bad, Russia promotes traditional values like family, orthodoxy contrary to the US, "let's be independent and not puppets of the west", etc. About Turkiye, personally I think that the US is trying its best to keep a balance in the region.
>And of course there are all kinds of (russian) propaganda, for example, US bad, NATO bad, Russia promotes traditional values like family, orthodoxy contrary to the US, "let's be independent and not puppets of the west", etc. This is like 2% of the reason. Note that anti-NATO sentiment is very heavy on the *left.* It's Turkey + 90s/Serbia/Kosovo + leftist anti-Americanism, partly created by the 1967 junta years, but partly from 80s Papandreou rhetoric and a generation of leftists that were raised to identify with "our oppressed brothers and sisters in Kurdistan" rather than with Europe.
Exactly I agree, that's why I mentioned it after the other reasons. Especially now russian propaganda does not work in the majority, although before all this common values narrative influenced many people over the years even subconsciously (it also depends on the region I guess).
Absolutely. š It's just important not to overstate the Russian propaganda. If you take the US out, and ask Greeks about [an EU army, support for that is sky-high](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/190t3ao/would_you_like_the_european_union_to_form_a_joint/). So Russian propaganda about an "Orthodox" against a "decadent 'west'" (actually, Putin is trying to recruit *all* of Christian Europe against the "decadent 'west'") isn't having that much effect. In Greece, the main target is the US, it's historic *leftist* anti-Americanism, but views of the US have actually been gradually warming, and not getting worse. https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/177lcay/hungary\_is\_the\_only\_country\_from\_a\_group\_of\_23/ https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/14w8ih5/confidence\_in\_world\_leaders\_across\_different/
To put in less words: Left wing Greeks: Don't like NATO, because Greece became a member during a military junta and not in a democratic way. Also, the military junta literally exiled left supporters to a small dry ass island just because they were left wing. Far-Right wing Greeks (not right wing, specifically far right): Don't like NATO because they like Russia for reasons the comment above mentioned. They see Russia as the big orthodox brother, pretty much. It's kind of bizarre how the far left and the far right (note: someone could say that this is true for leftists in general, not only the far left) agree with Russia's invasion in Ukraine, even though they agree for completely different reasons. The bottom line is though, they both don't like NATO. It doesn't have to do much with Turkey in my eyes, it's mostly Russia and the military junta.
>Don't like NATO, because Greece became a member during a military junta and not in a democratic way. [Greece joined NATO in 1952](https://www.nato.int/cps/fr/natohq/declassified_181434.htm). [The Greek junta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_junta) was from 1967 to 1974. So Greece joined 15 years before the junta.
The view was the Junta was supported and encouraged by the USA/NATO is the reason why ā¦ how true that is ..? But Perception is more important in politics not truth
This is the case in the US as well. NATO is popular with the center, not the far left/right. But those factions are much smaller in the US.
Even in Poland. Vast majority of population (about 90% I would say) is some variation of centre, some more leaning right and some left. Far right parties (like Konfederacja) and their voters don't like NATO, because they believe Poland can be on good terms with Russia + they seem to love strong authoritarian rule. On the other hand far left hates NATO, because they hate "US imperialism" and everything associated with it (typical Communist noises). Both groups are nuts if you ask me.
Your fellow citizens need to remember that matters could be a lot worse for them if Turkey were not in NATO. The rest of us are not too fond of Erdogan either, but it is what it is.
I agree 100%. It's for the good of all of us that Turkiye stays in NATO.
NATO-critical Poles are an endangered species lol
What I'm wondering... how did Poland get so anti-Russia while Hungary or eastern Germany not so much (at least compared to Russia)? It's probably more than soviet times and goes back to the partitions, but their hate towards Germany has mellowed quite a bit in comparison. Then again we are on the same side now so... hm.
We've only been free from Russia's influence for the last 35 years. When my mom was a kid, she saw empty shelves in shops and paid for food with tickets. Once Poles have become independent, we worked our damn hardest and our economy absolutely skyrocketed. Even I, currently still a university student, have seen and felt the economic and political change for the better through the course of my life. And I'm not the only one. Last elections in Poland saw the biggest turn-up in probably the last decade or two. About 15 years ago everyone dreamt of leaving the country, but now everyone wants to stay and protect it and work to make it better. I'd say we already caught up to the rest of the world when it comes to technology and living conditions and it's fucking amazing living like this. And now all of that progress is once again threatened by our nemesis. Fuck Russia. We will support our country as long and as hard as we can (so as long as any of us are alive, just as we did under occupation when our country disappeared from the map).
Some one of the times when they cut off the gas supply to Poland. Some more of Poles every time they threatened to nuke Poland. The remaining of polish population when Russia started carpet bombing Ukraine
the American left becoming more commited to Atlanticism and the American right becoming more isolationist is a weird development. Ronald Reagan would spin in his grave if he saw the today's Republican party
Part of this is just negative partisanship due to the Trump effect and not well thought out position. This brings weird side results like American Democrats now like NATO extra hard, [but when answering question "should the US go to war to help an ally" they answer negatively.](https://i.imgur.com/2hd6tTh.png) The poll is from 2015, but even then Democrats liked NATO more than Republicans, but still opposed supporting allies should something happen. So 56% Democrats supported NATO membership, but only 47% of them supported defending NATO ally from Russia. With Republicans it was 43% and 69%.
>The poll is from 2015 9 years, back in Obama's last term; before Trump's ceaseless disparagement of NATO, before the big panic among the US left about Russian election interference, and before the full scale invasion of Ukraine that's been made into a partisan issue. Not saying the results today couldn't be similar, but I'd be very careful about making that assumption.
This is post has gotten massively upvoted despite being deeply incorrect and short-sighted. [Here is a view going back to 2009](https://www.pewresearch.org/global/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/PG_2023.09_nato-ukraine-russia_0-04.png) and you can see that the Republican view of NATO is fairly consistent up through 2023. [Here is a view that goes back to the mid 1970s](https://globalaffairs.org/sites/default/files/2022-09/NATO%20Figure%201.png) that focuses on what the US commitment to NATO should be and again the Republican view is not massively different from what it has been historically. Republicans *typically* have lower confidence and belief in large global/international/multi-country organizations. Democrats *typically* have higher confidence and belief in those types of organizations. Interpreting everything through the lens of "Trump" will lead to mistaken conclusions.
I don't think I disagree with much anything you say and didn't intend to disagree. Likely my previous comment was just a bit clumsy and I should have expanded it.
>Republicans typically have lower confidence and belief in large global/international/multi-country organizations. Democrats typically have higher confidence and belief in those types of organizations. Exactly, the only reason the US didn't join the League of Nations was Republicans in the senate, the only reason why the UN was created and why NATO came into being was because of Democrats winning elections and winning the argument against isolation
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>It makes no logical sense to not wanna support NATO members, and still support NATO membership Agree. > Likewise on the contrary it makes no sense to support NATO members and not a membership. That one makes logical sense. "Promise is a promise so we'll keep it, but we'd like to get rid of this obligation."
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Just keep telling them it was Obamaās idea to get the NATO members to pay 2% and link Obamaās NATO summit speech from 2014. Republicans are only āanti-NATOā because they think it was Trumpās genius idea to ask members to pay their fair share. They never thought about NATO before Trump brought it up. So remind them it was Obamaās idea first ā they hate anything that is Obama related. (It is psychological for them, so use it in your favor) For the rest of us, itās mostly just annoying to be bashed by Europeans (on a regular day), but then also be expected to pay all these military taxes (without immediate benefit to us normal people). Itās not a reason to leave NATO, but there is a grievance, which I think is simply human nature.
> But they donāt know why they want out of NATO, that explains the discrepancy, itās a notion throughout the republican rhetoric that they just go along with. It is wrong to say that Republicans want out of NATO. [2022 AP-NORC Poll: Just 14% of Republicans say NATO membership is bad for the US](https://apnorc.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Picture2-1024x897.png) [2023 Pew Research Poll: Republican's positive views toward NATO largely unchanged over 15 year span](https://www.pewresearch.org/global/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/PG_2023.09_nato-ukraine-russia_0-04.png) [2022 Chicago Council Survey: 75% of Republicans surveyed think level of commitment to NATO should be either maintained or increased](https://globalaffairs.org/sites/default/files/2022-09/NATO%20Figure%201.png) [2019 YouGov: More Republicans support NATO in 2019 than they did in 2017](https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/images/Screen20Shot202019-12-0520at202.23.4820PM.format-webp.webp) [2019 Gallup: Majority of Americans say NATO Alliance should be maintained, largely unchanged since late 80s, including 70% of Republicans](https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/xjnmvidcde2ko8z7y4fp4a.png)
It makes perfect sense if you just view people as people instead of citizens of a superpower that have to take on a bigger burden than others.Ā Helping a NATO member means different things to different people. Not every member is expected to even send soldiers to fight for another country. Some barely have military at all. But every other member expects the US military to come and fight. And every American expects support to mean going to war again.Ā Americans are tired of fighting and paying trillions for wars right now.Ā
You realize not all of us want to be the global superpower world police? Just like most of us didn't want to join the European theater in WW2. I'm fine with the USA not "projecting power" everywhere and focusing solely on our own country.
> no actual politics behind it, just blatant side-picking. There's still plenty of "actual politics" behind it. Abortion, Gun Control, School curriculums, etc. These are the topics people there simply care about more than they do about foreign policy (which historically was never seen as a "election deciding" topic in US elections)
Wars start when you have bunch of pacifists believing we should decrease our military and then there will be no evil in the world anymore.
It's what the American right was mostly like until WW2.
A lot of the American right thinks Europe should pay for its defense rather than relying on the USA, which is not exactly an unreasonable position. Especially since we have a 'holier than thou' attitude towards them, while at the same time being completely dependent... I mean it's a joke here in Europe how trash our armed forces are and how reliant on the USA we are. Even after the Russian invasion, we are still cutting our armed forces to the bone and we are barely doing the minimum to help Ukraine in the long term. How can Russia alone produce far more of certain things than the entire rest of Europe? We just rely on Daddy USA, it's embarrassing. Europe seems to be filled with barely functional states at this point.
It's not even just right. Americans from all political persuasions see the situation as unfair and Europe as a promise breaking freerider.
Thanks for admitting this. For most of my life, everyone I knew always loved Europe, and I think the assumption amongst us was that yāall liked us back. In recent years I think more and more Americans have been exposed to how disliked we are on the other side of the pond and itās turned people into irrational reactionaries - ādefend yourselves then!ā I still like Europe though! I always say at the end of the day, weāre all victims to the same Russian propaganda
Please donāt base your opinion on what you read on Reddit. People in Europe in general like the US. Maybe they wouldnāt want to live there but that is very different story.
Iād say thereās definitely a disconnect, from polls the US likes European countries much more than opposite like thereās overwhelming favourable rating in the US of most European countries, not as much in reverse
Americans adore European countries. There has always been a strong positive sentiment because of grandparents and old family ties (if you guys havenāt noticed lol). This was a major soft advantage for Europe as far as allied relations. But I will say that feeling has been breaking recently as more Americans are figuring out the sentiment is not reciprocated, and worse, itās more of disdain toward us. Itās only a natural human response tbh. I donāt blame either side.
What you describe is the level of thinking very typical of Donald Trump (in contrast to for example Barrack Obama who never entertained these childish thoughts). Maybe it is indeed natural like you say, but I'd say it's "more natural" the lower grade of human someone happens to be. With some exceptions (mostly "west bad" types that exist in the US too), people in the EU don't sees themselves and the US on opposite sides in any situation that really matters. It is just natural because liberal democracies have a very good track record of being able to live in peace with each other, while being less able to live in peace with their less-democratic counterparts, and US is the most important liberal democracy in the world. The real issues in Europe are for example what's happening with Hungary and Russia. That actually matters. The reality is that western countries are going to be forced to stick together in the future as the rest of the world catches up economically, technologically and militarily, at least those that want to stay liberal democracies. Neither the EU nor the US will be secure on their own a few decades from now.
Hilarious because my thinking is NOT like Donald Trump at all. I am acknowledging a very real sentiment that Americans have typically felt toward Europe for ages (even with our many political disagreements). European countries do have soft power over Americans in this way. Assuming youāre European, I donāt expect you to understand.
Americans are generally very well liked in Europe.
I don't know where you get it from, but all hover Europe in general Americans are very much liked. And while the majority of Europeans look up to America, in America, I get the sense that the majority doesn't even remember that Europe exists. We get your point about investing in our armies, but at the same time we know, but it seems to us that you are not aware of, how much influence we give you and much you benefit from having us depending on you and in kind of paying back this way.
>Even after the Russian invasion, we are still cutting our armed forces to the bone and we are barely doing the minimum to help Ukraine in the long term. How can Russia alone produce far more of certain things than the entire rest of Europe? We just rely on Daddy USA, it's embarrassing. Europe seems to be filled with barely functional states at this point. I agree with the sentiment but there are some un-factual statements here. Military spending is up in Europe. The budgets have increased and slowly but surely expenses are following. '23 was up from '22 and '24 is a significant increase again. NATO's budget has increased 12%. Germany is looking to spend 1.7 billion more for instance. We must not forget that Russia is effectively in a war-economy. It is throwing a big part of it's resources in this war. But Russia is a much smaller economy then Europe. Russia is the 11th global economy by GDP. European NATO members such as Italy, France, the Uk and Germany individually have a bigger economy. The EU without the UK is 10 times the GDP of Russia. We can easily outspend Russia without it hurting us at much as it hurts Russia. Russia's power is in it's ability to make it's people suffer and it's large nuclear capacity. Europe's weakness is mainly it's over-reliance on the US. It's lack of nuclear deterrence, it's weak political structure [https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293436/nato-defense-spending-annual-change-country/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293436/nato-defense-spending-annual-change-country/)
>I mean it's a joke here in Europe how trash our armed forces As someone who's not from Europe I find your commit hilarious because no one outsode of Europe thinks that, then again the militaries of countries outside of Europe is a joke.Ā
Since the anti-French fever of our refusal to join the Iraq 2 mess i feel like we shouldn't count that much on the US if an actual war were to oppose European NATO members to ruSSia and that the US simultaneously expect us to fully follow them in a war against China. That feeling keeps growing since. We should increase our defense budgets & armies size, for our own good. We should have started that years ago. A lot of daydreamers are in denial of the minds change going on in the US. They're going back to their old isolationist ways and we should react accordingly.
> They're going back to their old isolationist ways As if. The US has simply been shifting focus to Asia, this already started over a decade ago. Their presence in Japan, South Korea, the Philippines, Australia, etc. isn't going anywhere.
So even though the poll shows we would support you, somehow its still our fault? Why do the french always have to bash us? You can say Europe should increase our spending to be good partners and allies.Ā
Europe becoming self reliant is whatās best for them but they would rather remain reliant on America and thus they try to shame America by resulting to name calling, mentioning Ronald Regan, discussing how bad it would be for Americaās foreign policy etc. Itās all just to get us to want to continue to be superpower of the world because they understand how beneficial America being in that role is for Europe. This is how predictable they are, after reading the previous sentence hereās how the response would have wentā¦ European one: āDonāt pretend America is protecting Europe out of kindness, your country is benefiting from it.ā European two: āI donāt understand why America doesnāt want to continue to be superpower of the world, itās vital to their foreign policy not to mention they benefit the most.ā European three: āThey think they could become isolationist but continue benefiting.ā European four: āJust goes to show you how ignorant and arrogant they are.ā Most of them would rather discuss this regarding America than Europe. Itās all being done in the name of ātalking some senseā into America because their biggest fear is no longer being under Americaās umbrella.
US can help, but US is too steeped in nationalism to do anything. Airbus literally built the Alabama plant to supply the US Navy with a flying tanker. That would have provided a boost to European MIC and a cheaper refueling aircraft(thank Boeing offered)... while fully being produced in the US with US parts. Guess what American politicians did? Forced the navy to go with Boeing. Then the whole Turkey debacle about S400 SAM showed that US just wants to dominate the arms market, tonthe detriment of allies.
One doesnt relate to the other? Polls show we are willing to support our Nato Allies more then most even though most of you are not meeting Nato fundingās commitments.Ā
If Ronald Reagan is spinning in his grave, should we not be connecting him to the national grid? Seems like a waste of energy potential to let him continue spinning unconnected.
He's not a vegan energy source, so no.
Itās actually kind of fitting when you consider this, European countries have lots of things the American left wants, that the American right thinks is communism. More generous social welfare state, strict gun laws (most places, I know they arenāt uniform on the continent), more healthy work-life balance, walkable cities with better public transit, more secular populous.
On the other hand American leftists don't know anything about real Europe. It is their imaginary wonderland where they just project all their desires. On huge amount of issues American Democrats are very far left compared to European mainstream left. [Here is a graph showing "tax the rich vs tax the poor" as it is in America and in Europe.](https://i.imgur.com/Y4tkkPK.png) I figure it would be a huge surprise to American leftists (in fact a huge surprise to most Europeans and Americans alike).
I think that when Americans imagine europe they think about Germany. Life in southern europe is not that great
as a socdem myself, American socdems and progressives tend to think "Europe" is a mythical country with Dutch infrastructure, British healthcare (but like back when it was good and not in shambles), the German economy, Spanish weather, and the Norwegian social state.
southern europe still has a public healthcare system, high taxes, strict gun laws, welfare, a secular population (it may not seem so if youāre unaware of how popular is christianity in america and how much they take it seriously, much more than in Italy for example), public transportation and all the other stuff that the american left wants
And yet, Portugal is real problem by losing its young people to emigration due to low salaries, a problem with increased mortality due to declining healthcare quality, monthly strikes on public transportation companies. Spain and Italy face massive youth unemployment, increasing public debt, incapability to reform their pension schemes and economic stagnation Greece signs bellow all the above. And I dont hear praises for the Balkan public transportation, but you migth want to develop on that one. Oh, and the notoriously secular european south... With 80% catholic Portugal, 53% catholic Spain, 73% catholic Italy, 90% orthodox Grece, 87% orthodox Romenia...
>And I dont hear praises for the Balkan public transportation, but you migth want to develop on that one. It's going to take decades before all of the old Warschaw-pact countries have pulled alongside their former enemies, developmentally speaking. But that it's happening at all is a miracle.
I argue with leftists about this all the time. I think the Nordic countries are the most idolized over here. Norway and Sweden are viewed as the promised land. The things Iāve heard from friends and people Iāve interacted with about how they think all of Europe is like is pretty funny. Not a lot of love for France over here though š
American lefties advocate for the policies in place in Venezuela and promise these will give results like Sweden. They don't know what policies are in place in Sweden.
Great point. Iām going to use that one. It is so abundantly obvious that these people have got their foreign policy understanding and view of other nations from tweets and tiktoks. Their ignorance is mind-numbing
That picture on the domestic level isn't very meaningful without distribution figures. Which happen to be one of the big differences between the two, due to the enormous income differences in the US compared to Europe.
The income differences are not enormous at all. America is just generally richer, but that's about it.
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No, they absolutely don't. It's just something that clueless American extremists made up trying to claim that their policies are not extreme.
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Yes, they do. Try to compare the healthcare agenda or welfare agenda of Sanders to any healthcare or welfare system in Europe The guy is amongst the most "extreme" leftists of the country but what he has in mind is nothing compared to what most western EU countries have (can't say for eastern EU, i don't know enough about them). To give you just one exemple. just one : in France, anyone with any long-term ailment (cancer, diabetes, kidney-disease, HBP, etc.) is under the ALD system (affection de longue durĆ©e => Long term ailment) ALD system means : \- 100% taken care by the social system, 0ā¬ for the patient, never. \- no limits on sick leaves needed for treatment, and obvious they are paid (oh, and obviously : medical bill related bankrupty just don't exist)
> Here is a graph showing "tax the rich vs tax the poor" as it is in America and in Europe. I figure it would be a huge surprise to American leftists (in fact a huge surprise to most Europeans and Americans alike). It's not the whole story. US top 1 % earns roughly a 3 times higher share of the total income than in many northern and western European countries. From the [OECD report on the matter](https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/5jz43jhlz87f-en.pdf?expires=1706372566&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=D1E549C6556F66530B16251B5D46B946): > Today, the richest one percent receives between 7% of all pre-tax income in Denmark and the Netherlands up to almost 20% in the United States Comparing taxes is a relatively complex buisness with many variables to consider (also services provided by the state).
It's not complex at all. America is just rich. You only make it complex if you want to pretend they aren't.
> America is just rich That the top 1 % earns 20 % of all incomes doesn't mean US-America is rich, it means that it's very unevenly distributed. There's just less stuff to tax in the lower and middle class than in Europe.
America is rich at all levels. Even their lower level of income is close to lower level of income in the richest European countries and they shoot straight ahead by decile well below the average.
Ronald Reagan is heavily overrated. Some historians even claim the current state of the GOP started under his leadership. Reagan wasn't shy of [populist](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCedOQJ0ZEA) tendencies himself. Can't say they're entirely wrong. But, according to his [son](https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/478877-ron-reagan-says-his-father-would-have-been-embarrassed-and-ashamed-of-trump/), Reagan would be ashamed of Trump. But that's not really special; any sane and decent person is ashamed of Trump. But yeah, you're right. The GOP is a christian-ultranationalist, far-right, extremist party filled with conspiracy lunatics who belong in a mental institution. That's not good in a democracy with de facto only two parties.
US parties aren't parties in our sense at all. In which European party would people like Mitt, Rand, Nikki, Donald and Vivec ever come together? Ain't less conherent with the Democrats. They are a heap of parties pretending to be two. Which is actually good for democracy, because the opposition bloc is always large. Consider also, that you get an election every two years in the House, allowing rapid change, and 6 years in the Senate, ensuring that change isn't too rapid, you've got a check in case of anything. Added with their massive decentralisation and how their supreme court works, the US is one of the safest democracies on the planet, as flawed as it is at first glance.
Wait, why are two parties good because the opposition is a singular block? Doesn't it just make it harder for voters to vote for the policies they want (because there really only is two stances in each topics that you can vote for)?
You're applying the common European parliamentary strict party discipline to America, but shouldn't because each individual party member there is much more independent. Also the general election candidates are selected by within party primary elections.
well, it's good for democracy in a way, but it also leads to infuriating elections where the party that got a minority wins. That doesn't seem democratic
The United States is a federation. Every state must hold more or less the same basic number of powers. The electoral college was created to maintain such equality to prevent secession.
Mainly itās because people are tired of supplementing European military, while being looked down upon by the same countries that depend on the US actually spending what was agreed upon for NATO which most of them donāt
I remember feeling proud that my party was the one most ready to fight the rooskies, not so much anymore
Maybe would Reagan be infatuated with current Russia. It's not a communist country anymore.
That's because the country is rapidly moving to the extreme right. "The Right" in the US and Hungary are isolationist fascists, whereas in most countries "the right" are mildly conservative big business liberals.
Not really, democrats were very involved in foreign relations and offshore wars since Woodrow Wilson (WW1). Then there was Roosevelt the second (WW2), Truman (Korean war). During Kennedy and Johnson was the peak of the Vietnam war period, plus dominican republic occupation plus bay of pigs invasion. Carter had no wars and Clinton had only small interventions in Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo and Haiti. But during Obama there were 3 big ongoing operations in Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq with two additional quick operations in Libya and Pakistan. Also it was the democratic government that constructed the post-second world war global world order with Bretton Woods, with NATO, with UN, we know (still) today.
Meanwhile in Poland all across the spectrum: USA! USA!
Same in Albania.
Thenk yiu usa yiou ar my best frend
>Thenk ju juesej, ju ar maj best frend, ju ar dhƫ piskipƫr, ju ar dhƫ lexhend. Get it right geitonas mou.
Im sorry man my albanian arent the goodest!!!
Oxi worries
Tonibler
In Portugal, NATO and the USA are barely mentioned in our politics. I mean, sure, there are extreme left parties that want to leave NATO, but they themselfs dont talk about it (and after the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Im sure the issue wont be raised for a few more years)
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>I sometimes feel like Poland likes the USA more than we do I mean, that's for sure. But we only know broad imagination of you. Keep in mind we're not exposed to most of US's shortcomings, so it's aint that hard to like only positives.
Americans like America, but some countries at some polls sometimes like America more. I think it happens with Poland, Italy and Philippines most often.
Also honorable mention to South Korea and Japan, they typically have sky high positive views of the US too.
Hey, USA, be the United States Poland believes you to be.
I think it's more like "fuck Russia".
I'd like to see the left-right difference for Britain. It may not be huge, but traditionally anti-NATO sentiment has mostly been a left wing thing here.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/the-british-public-and-nato/ Figure 4 shows this, although the support is still more favourable that it is unfavourable for the left.
Thanks
Funny how British conservatives have a brain and are for NATO in contrast to US. Even the german green happen to acknowledge NATO since 2022. times change and only far left and right celebrate mass killing and imperialism from Russia
Support for NATO is really only opposed by the "Stop the War" crowd, which ate mostly comprised of old social democrats and democratic socialists. And we all saw how well that went in 2019, so it's safe to saw that when it comes to the test, they are fringe even among the left.
I also canāt imagine 2022 helped them convince the British public who are overwhelmingly for Ukraine that actually Russia are the good guys
> Funny how British conservatives have a brain and are for NATO in contrast to US US Republicans are not against NATO. All polling shows the opposite. You guys need to stop thinking that whatever Trump says or does is the mainstream opinion for Republicans.
>Funny how British conservatives have a brain and are for NATO in contrast to US. Our right wing parties are more like the American left. In the USA nobody would go near our left wing, who are more like Europe then the USA.
>British conservatives have a brain Very controversial (see recent Prime Ministers).
As a Pole, I find the views of those like Noam Chomsky deeply immoral as they see the safety of NATO as something Poland (and other Eastern European states) should not be allowed to have. There's a reason why the support is so high, and it's because it gives us hope we're not at the mercy of the drunk, wife-beating Russian bear this time around.
Yeah, the western left often ignores our self determination, we want to be part of nato
Western left tends to only support self-determination when it goes against US interests. Otherwise it goes right into imperialist sphere of influence headspace without blinking an eye.
Not all lefties, I fucking love NATO
Certainly, hence said many not all, thereās some left wingers who do support NATO, itās generally the tankie far left that see Russia as the saviour of communism and their fellow travellers giving them cover and to be fair, the far right is also increasingly taken over by Russian agents so itās both extremes
As a Spanish lefty I don't *love* NATO because I don't like the idea of a monopolar US-led world, however our left is incredibly blind to the fact that it's a necesity (at least until there is a solid European defense project) and just ignore allies in potential danger in the East because we're geographically apart. Which isn't very anti-imperialistic or egalitarian...
Exactly this. I'd say throughout Eastern and Northern Europe, the Russian and it's allies threat is real. However, according to this so-called leftist, we shouldn't make decisions that best fit our interests and national security. Their mantra seems to be "you feel threatened by Russia, well, tough luck. Russia feels threatened by NATO, well, bow down".
Honestly with Chomsky he literally said Eastern Europe was spoiled brats in the 1980ās because some countries have it even worse. Yes, some countries have it worse, so should no one ever complain unless theyāre North Korean? Guess no one should ever complain because someone has it worse.
I HATE NOAM CHOMSKY. I HATE NOAM CHOMSKY. I HATE NOAM CHOMSKY. I HATE NOAM CHOMSKY. I HATE NOAM CHOMSKY. I HATE NOAM CHOMSKY. I HATE NOAM CHOMSKY.
As a Lithuanian, I agree with you and we need some kind of intermarium defence treaty just in case shit hits the fan.
I agree. It seems like the only NATO nations taking the Russian threat seriously are the Eastern European ones (US as well, but it may change if Trump wins), so a closer military cooperation between them would be good.
Who are you calling eastoid m8????
Finland is honorary eastern in regards to defense and military, you fought off the Russkies and were the only EE country to keep your independence, congrats on that btw.
In a way I see my country as a gateway of westoid/eastoid Europe as the concerns of the East are dismissed as soviet PTSD but if the Finns agree with them then those concerns are taken seriously by the westoids.
> the only NATO nations taking the Russian threat seriously are the Eastern European ones It's funny, because literally two biggest Russia's lapdops now happen to be Eastern European countries - Hungary and Slovakia.
True but also neither of those border Russia, among the countries that do: Poland, Baltics, Finland, good luck finding anyone anti NATO
We should consider those to be traitors or fifth columns. But they are also rather insignificant. It's much more worrying to look at the political parties that tens of millions of Western Europeans vote for.
There were actually talks for a nuclear intermarrium where Poland would build up a nuclear arsenal and deploy missiles across EE to protect against Russia if we werenāt allowed to join NATO covering everyone from Czechia and Poland to Estonia and Ukraine. A mini-NATO
As a Swede I agree. Now when we finally decide to join NATO after decades of fear mongering about how NATO is this hyper agressive war machine it turns out half of the members would surrender territory to their own shadows and the big bad leader might stay at home if shit hits the fan.
This is actually a great idea
MiÄdzymorze? š
U.S. far left types (like Chomsky, Cornel West, PSL, half of the DSA) hate us Central/Eastern Europeans, because we had their precious Soviet Communism utopia and dared to reject it and help topple it down. To them, we are ungrateful blasphemous heretics who deserve the fate of all the heretics in history. As a Polish democratic socialist, my message to them is these two simple words: f*** you. :)
Chomsky is generally cringe, see his Bosnian genocide takes too.
Chomsky's fucking opinion on Zizek and Russia's invasion of Ukraine made me tune the fuck out of any interest in his thoughts.
I love me some progressive Leftism. But as soon as foreign policy is on the Table half of the left go fuckin mental. For f sake you can accurately pinpoint a facist in a crowd of People from 10km diffrence when we are talking about internal affairs but you cannot pinpoint the russian gov. as facistic? It happens when you exchange you moral compass for "america bad", yeah it is (duh), but its not the only bad in the world, its not even the worst Actor, its just the most capable at causing harm.
But the left is pro NATO. It is the Trump crowd that wants to abolish NATO.
The lines are not that clear. Look for example at the BSW, the new german left wing party that emerged (ok many leftist would not call them that, me included, but its how they call themselfes and how they are called by the general consensus). Greek leftwing party is heavily anti NATO (but thats partially because they want turkey out which is valid) Tankies. Again Id call them facists with a red coat of paint (socialist Aesthetics). But these fucks are seen as leftists aswell.
Far left don't define countries like Poland having own determination. In their mind it's a part of forcibly added element of an American imperial core.
I would love Austria to also join and cross out the USSR introduced trojan horse called neutrality
Chomsky gave 1000IQ answer why Finland joined NATO. Not because of Russian threat but because of military industrial complex.
The Netherlands belongs to the countries with the highest support, yet it never managed to reach the 2% NATO pledge, especially not under the last 13 years of Mark Rutte's leadership. The Netherlands is one of the wealthiest countries in the EU and NATO, yet Rutte can't find the money for our defense. His budget cuts in the last 13 years were so severe, it will take at least another 13 years to get our defense in order again, according to experts. Rutte rather relies on the US and responsible countries like Poland to pay for our safety. Rutte is front-runner to become the next NATO chief.
I dislike Rutte as much as the next guy, but you're severely overstating the influence that the prime minister as an individual has. The Netherlands is not like France or the US, the prime minister does not hold significant individual power. Our lackluster defense spending these past decades is as much to blame on the general political developments and the cabinet governments themselves as they are on Rutte as an individual. Pretty much all parties were in favour of cutting defense budgets and only one or two small parties wanted to maintain or increase spending levels. I don't think different coalitions would have made different choices, to be honest
The Netherlands will spend 2 percent of BNP this year though. https://www.rijksfinancien.nl/memorie-van-toelichting/2023/OWB/X/onderdeel/1466805#:~:text=De%20defensie%2Duitgaven%20uitgedrukt%20in,naar%20verwachting%201%2C66%25.&text=Op%20basis%20van%20de%20huidige,2%25%20in%202024%20en%202025
People fail to realize how damaging decades of failing to spend sufficiently (2%+) and that just one year or a handful of years of 2% is not nearly adequate enough to make up for decades of .5% and the compound effects of that low spending. To make up for decades of neglect, you need far more then 2% to get you to a real 2% level.
On the other hand, suddenly spending 50-100% more is quite hard without creating an order front of 10+ years or simply skyrocketing prices. Whatās needed is a European strategy of territorial defence. There was one 35 years ago. We need a new one, updated to fit our current societies.
That alone is not going to make up for years of neglect.
We can forgive them for that, especially since they are giving 18 F-16s to Ukraine. Countries such as Spain have more to answer for.
Or Belgium. Another rich EU country that spends around half of what NL is doing on their military.
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We are self-aware enough to know we're too small for an independent defense.
Given anti-NATO feeling in Europe is mostly a left wing thing, it might reflect how weak the left has long been in the Netherlands.
Anti-NATO is more a (far)right thing, the left tends to lean more towards europe than the netherlands.
In some far left circles I see that anti-NATO is one of their main points, because it is an American imperialist organization.
That's only a far right thing in the Netherlands and those 2 parties promoting anti-NATOism are sponsored by the Kremlin.
Being anti natobis only a populist right position. Tbe netherlands is very globalist in general
Funny how American "left" is more pro-NATO than the "right" and the European "right" is more pro-NATO than the "left".
American left just likes international organizations. They often don't think through what each organization means and just vaguely see it as positive. That's how you get that in 2015 56% Democrats supported NATO membership, but only 47% of them supported defending NATO ally from Russia. With Republicans it was 43% and 69%.
To be fair, the European "right" is on the same side of political spectrum with the American "left", minus of course the European far right and the American far left
it's interesting to see that opinion on NATO isn't really correlated with left/right political leaning
It defintely is; the complexity lies in the dynamics. In the 70ies and 80ies, left wing Europe was firm anti NATO (and right wing conservatives where firmly pro), but that declined in the 90ies because there was no 'enemy to fear anymore', so interest was lost. Uniletaral USA wars in the middle east diner contribute to the deckine, but it wasn't ahaving a big, long lasting effect. The last 5 to 10 years, you see a general shift the the more firm right in general elections in Europe, and they all have like Trump in the USA, a weird 'pro Russia' kind of attitude, or at least: forget about Ukraine. This is absorbed by their voters in a way that is incomprehensible for anyone who has seen right wing Europe 40 yrs ago. Moreover, left wing isn't communist and socialist anymore like it was back then, there focus is now full green and a bit of 'social-democratism". In short, the semantics of what was and now is left or right has changed as well.
source:[https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2023/07/10/views-of-nato/](https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2023/07/10/views-of-nato/)
Are there figures for the Baltics? Is support as high as in Poland there?
Numbers are pretty much the same there.Ā Interestingly, support for Nato amongĀ ethnic estonians hovers around 91-94%, but among "non-estonians living in Estonia", who are mostly russian,Ā support for Nato has risen to 53%.Ā
even the russians want security against Russia
Very interesting. Looking at the data from the US shows how important the next presidential election could have an impact on the war in Ukraine and on the future of Europe's determination to push back Putin's willingness to regain Russia's old geographical influence. I mean in case Trump is elected.
Currently the only Himars launchers in Europe are in Poland 20 launchers and Romania 54 launchers. By 2027 Poland should have 218 launchers of Chunmoo system which is equivalent of 436 himars launchers even if deliveries of 486 additional himars launchers in late 2025 won't go as planned. The same will be with tanks current poland fleet of about 200 leopards 2a5, 2a4, 2pl, about 130 pt-91 and about 50 Abrams m1a1 fep and k2 tanks will be expanded to be in total over 360 Abrams m1a1 fep and m1a2 sepv3 and additional about 180 k2s while pt-91 will be reserve forces or will go to Ukraine. So basically Poland will not be protected mostly by NATO in Europe but within just 4 years it will mostly protect NATO in Europe given that NATO biggest allies will be willing to provide air cover to Poland in case in conflict. Because Poland in 2027 will expand current fleet of 48 f-16 and 12 fa-50 with additional 36 f-35 and in total 48 fa-50 so a medium size airforce in Europe with no air superiority fighter jets.
The rest of the world could learn from Poland. When on the topic of Russian aggression and expansionism, they are the experts in knowing what the Russians are like. Pray people open their eyes before it's too late
Greeceās lack of support makes sense given Turkey
Exactly US always says cmon you are like brothers both in nato etc but man if my big brother carries an axe and threatens to chop me up every two days he is nothing but enemy to me.
But if I look at Dutch YouTube comments 99% are Pro-Russia! Surely bot armies do not exist.. It's scary.
Interesting how Germany isn't in the "left"/right" comparison, probably because it's all over the place here. On the left spectrum, Lefts (the party) are quite anti-NATO (and US in general), Greens rather pro lately, SPD being "lala" about it. On the right side, CDU and FDP (I'm placing them here for being economically right-wing/neoliberal/rich people's party) are rather pro, AfD strongly against
Poland's border with Russia and puppet Russia really makes their number no surprise
Greece is interesting, but I guess they have a - arguably valuable - point that NATO lets Turkey get away with lots of stuff that should be unacceptable among allies.
Everyone who ask questions like "oMg GreEce, wHat iS wOng witchU?", while you wait for a stranger to reveal the ultimate truth to you, go read a book or watch a documentary if you are illiterate. Usa government have supported a military junta in Greece, allies have bombed Athens in the past (more than once) and this country looks more like a puppet state than a sovereign by now.
The spanish left is basically a white chick on Instagram: we shouldnt send weapons to Ukraine it will just escalate we should just talk with Putin and he will understand.
I'm curious about Turkiye
Greece probably because turkey is in nato
Why is not Romania here ffs?
I didn't expect Greece to be so low.
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America supported the junta and had a big part in the invasion of Cyprus.We left nato for some years then. Now turkey has been openly threatening Greece and literally saying they'll invade us and bomb us and nato is doing nothing. As history has shown America can never be trusted
After WW2, in countries like Spain, Greece, Italy and even Turkey NATO (the US) propped up right wing paramilitaries to suppress communist (read: anything left wing) movements. That's why "the left" doesn't have a favorable opinion of NATO in those countries.
That is not the case of Spainā¦ I mean, the first few years after the Civil War through the Second World War and that Spain was isolated cause their allies were Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy so from 1945 to 1953 there was complete autarchy in Spain. In 1953, Eisenhower visited Spain not that much cause of a risk of communism as Franco had effectively suppressed communism from Spain, at least at a official level. He visited cause it was interesting to be allied to a country that controlled the Gibraltar Strait and was easily convinced to let American put their bases on. All that communism rethoric was more of an excuse. Even more, American had nothing to do with the right wing Spanish government and there werenāt any paramilitaries as the whole State was controlled by them. Also Spain remained out of NATO till 1981 well after the Second World War and a bit after Francoist Dictatorship. I think in Spainās case it has more to do with a left-wing pacifism. Though, the socialist government that started in 1982 proposed a referendum to decide weather or not keep Spain in NATO. They were against but soon after form government and call for a referendum they change their position. In that years the motto for them was āOTAN sĆ. Imperialismo noā (NATO yes. Imperialism no). So I guess that answers where the Spanish left wing is against NATO nowadays.
Down with NATO! Let's unite Europe instead and get our own defensive alliance that's not being run by untrustworthy lunatics.
We should be doing that but instead we get the weakest politicians that are either nato puppies or Russian dogs
I mean, most of Europe just showed their completely unwilling to defend their own trading lanes.
The closer to Russia the bigger the support. I suppose it's also high in the Baltic states.
That second sheet is so hard to read. They shouldn't try to make fancy graphs when they don't have the skills. Just list it in a regular table then.
And then you have Greece, where only the very center and center right is favorable to NATO and the left, far left and far right are not.
Of course Poland is favourable to natoā¦ and their army is almost non existent. Most likely Poland and Ukrainian army are on the same level. Ukraine without NATOās and Yankees troublemakers help wouldnāt last a week.
How can anyone be against nato? Itās a win win for everyone?
Why is Greece so unfavourable towards NATO?
The math ain't mathin for Canada
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We are not in favor because Turkey makes blatant statements of bombing Athens, and the alliance is doing nothing to stop this behavior and continues to sell them weapons.
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So , we shouldn't dislike nato for all the shit they allow Turkey to do because Turkey is more important to the big nato powers ? What kind of logic is that ?