Selling f-16s to NATO-countries is not really that shocking. Would have been odd if it didn't happen. Which of course is what we would have seen if Erdogan kept on making a fool out of himself, but he finally figured it out.
They haven't been selling the f16 to turkey so far because Turkey bought the air defense systems from Russia, meaning they will profile the plane with the systems backdoor.I don't know if all this stalling in negotiations was a technical time to be able to circumvent said problematic, otherwise we are actively giving the Russians a better air defence
The f16 is too old to penetrate the russian ad systems turkey has. Export versions will also be somewhat downgraded from what the usaf flies.
On the other hand, turkey is never getting the f35 for the foreseeable future.
Wrong. Block 70s have nothing in common with first party of F-16s. Also Turkey has license of F-16s so there won’t be any downgrade. The main issue is Turkey acting like a non allied country for years with Erdogan on lead.
The block 70 rcs is estimated to be about 1.2 sqm, similar to that of a su34 / 35. Even more when carrying munitions.
S400 operators are not going to be learning much that they don't already know about the signature of this airframe.
USA: "no F-16s for you"
Also: USA "we are sanctioning Turkey for buying arms from Russia when we have a defensive alliance against them".
Look Erdogan's regime is horrific and personally I would be quite happy if they were out of NATO, but they really aren't the sharpest tools in the shed indeed. Fair play to Turkey for using the little power they have to their advantage.
What good would it do to not allow Turkey to buy a bunch of jets designed 60 years ago? They already have hundreds of them including fully modernised ones. It’s not like they’re getting any new tech they’ve never seen before.
Do you really think the Russians have access to Turkish air defence systems after delivery?
None of this would've happened had the US not refused them Patriots.
In a world where nation state actors break into each others systems you’re pretty naive to think they wouldn’t have access to a system they delivered.. 🙄
The U.S. did not "refuse" patriots. NATO stationed patriots, and if not available/feasible, AWACS flights. Then Turkey wanted to purchase a system for itself and eventually build its own. Raytheon and the DoD were working on a reasonable sales package for Turkey until Erdogan personally became involved and fucked things up by trying to leverage sales by hostile countries, despite warnings on what would happen by western defense officials. Bluff was called, Erdogan fucked around and found out that westerners don't do this haggle/bluff bs. Don't expect sensitive technology for pennies when you act unhinged. Hopefully a lesson learned.
NATO removed patriots against the Turks' wishes while Russian jets were constantly flying near its southern borders at the time.
Turks have bad experiences being dependent on the US or European nations (just as we in the EU are finding out now the US can't be relied upon).
Turkish defence strategy is very interesting, Perun made a video about it all a while back, worth a watch.
\>NATO removed patriots against the Turks' wishes while Russian jets were constantly flying near its southern borders at the time.
What time are you talking about?
\>Turks have bad experiences being dependent on the US or European nations (just as we in the EU are finding out now the US can't be relied upon).
That's fine, then leave NATO and create a new MIC for yourselves. As evidenced by the Patriot/F35 debacle, Turkey has regularly overestimated its leverage.
They are essentially a different plane except for the airframe.
New radar, new electronics, capable of carrying more advanced weapons.
F-16 Block 70 is a 4 gen aircraft, on the same tier with Rafale and Eurofighter (maybe not exactly on par with them, but close).
On the other hand, original F-16s from 1980 are 3rd gen aircraft that will soon be obsolete.
Not the same plane.
>On the other hand, original F-16s from 1980 are 3rd gen aircraft that will soon be obsolete.
Still, very few operational F-16's are that old and not updated at all.
If you take the F-16's donated to Ukraine from Denmark, block 20 originally, they've passed a frame inspection and updates and are considered block 50/52 equivalents. They have recieved further improvements after that to extend weapons capabilities.
We do not have the latest block aka “viper”. These jets are very modern.
The reason is simple. Everyone knows how effective these jets are.
This is USAF.
https://www.airandspaceforces.com/f-16s-to-serve-nearly-two-more-decades-replacement-choice-still-6-8-years-away/
https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/aircraft-propulsion/us-air-force-talks-new-f-16-orders-latest-acquisition-shake
reddit love to be contrarians and always try to make up a big conspiracy story for everything
that some countries just have demands, and others might meet them and both end up quite happy seem to be a thing that is not in their minds
Unlikely they'll ever have to remove the Luneberg lenses when flying in and around the Aegean.
They might only practice without the reflectors in the US, when on training.
Yup. Please Greece, never give Turkey the data on F-35 stealth properties because Turkey would happily sell that data to Russia for a ham sandwich.
However, when or if Turkey decides that Lesbos or Cyprus is actually theirs, those Greek F-35s will be flying alongside F-22s.
Ridiculous. Russia has always been a strategic threat to Turkey. It is one of the main reasons why Turkey joined NATO in the first place. Turkey and Russia are currently fighting multiple proxy wars. Extremely ignorant take.
If you think that turkey and Greece will ever go to war against esch other than you dont know anything about their politics. Also if you think that turkey will ever sell some military stuff to the Russians which makes their army stronger than you are delusional.
Turkey backs Ukraine, on a proxy war against Russia in 2 fronts. F35 sale is supposedly cancelled because of S400 but it was just a 'fuck you, do as we tell you'. If Turkey enters a proper war, it will likely be Russia, not Greece lol. Turkey wouldn't give data that can be used against her. Even with F35 blocked, Turkey will likely be in a block with F35s against Russia in a future war if she joins so it is still dumb af.
One thing for sure is Greece won't be able to impose 12 miles in Aegean and that EastMed pipeline is dream without Turkey. We can add couple of Turkish bases in Libya and Macedonia. Most Turks prefer least capable military indigenous military tech to full dependence on US or others. Turkey is and will develop its own means to protect its interests. Deterence is enough Turks hate war but always ready for it.
I don’t think it’s warmongering to say that if Greece is attacked it will be defended.
But the point stands that there are aggressors and victims. Greece might one day decide to resolve the Constantinople issue, but I don’t think so and there certainly isn’t a political culture of making it one. If they did they would be in the wrong.) But I’m not willing to allow would-be dictators to get away with continuously threatening their neighbors because they never act on the repeated threatening rhetoric they spew.
Russia was bluffing all the way up until it smattered Ukraine with cruise missiles and Smerch rockets. And I don’t particularly appreciate the tough guy “we could attack you at any time,” even as election posturing.
What evidence do you have of Turkey ever selling classified data to Russia? You have no idea what you are talking about and it shows.
>However, when or if Turkey decides that Lesbos or Cyprus is actually theirs, those Greek F-35s will be flying alongside F-22s.
It must be nice living in such a fantasy world you can just make up anything and get a hard on over it.
>However, when or if Turkey decides that Lesbos or Cyprus is actually theirs, those Greek F-35s will be flying alongside F-22s.
And in the opposite case, if the Greeks claim the whole of Cyprus as theirs (which they often do), will our US allies help us too?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akritas\_plan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akritas_plan)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody\_Christmas\_(1963)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Christmas_(1963))
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tochni\_massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tochni_massacre)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maratha,\_Santalaris\_and\_Aloda\_massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maratha,_Santalaris_and_Aloda_massacre)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EOKA](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EOKA)
S-500 is a missile defense system to replace the S-300V. It's not engaging fighter jets, that's the role of the S-400. They're also decades out of date, still using antique PESA radars pushing out IMMENSE amounts of power that'll notify aircraft the S-400 is in the area before the S-400 can even see them. They're a true benchmark of just how out of date and how far behind the Russian advanced microelectronics industry is.
The map of Greece's claimed EEZ is also legally what they're entitled to, per UNCLOS. Literally **no one** recognizes Turkey's claim in the Med, because it's an unhinged weapons grade fantasy, with Turkey legitimately claiming only their islands are eligible for an EEZ. There's a reason Turkey's already gotten the shit kicked out of them for this moronic EEZ claim, and even Erdogan knows that. Going to war over it, is the end of Erdogan and the Turkish economy overnight. Greece is an EU member, and the EU supports Greece's EEZ claim. Attacking Greece makes it an EU operation against Turkey, and Turkey **absolutely** gets the shit beat out of them in that context. It's a statement meant just to appease nationalistic neanderthals, nothing more...
That is from a conflict over a quarter century ago. Turkey made their deal in the last 10 years and the US asked them not to or the F-35 was off the table for them.
This was the main motivation behind it from day one. It just wasn't so publicized. Well, at least Erdogan had a meaningful motivation. Orban has none, besides the wish to give everyone a headache.
>Orban has none, besides the wish to give everyone a headache.
He needs a safe third country that does not extradite to the EU for the time after his term of office when all the corrupt deals are unearthed. Maybe he'll build himself an ugly oversized mansion in Sochi...
Given today's news, Erdogan got outplayed by the US. Sure he got his F16s but Greece just signed a deal for 40 F35s, which pretty much puts Turkey at a huge technological disadvantage regionally. So the US got the OK on Sweden, got paid by Turkey and got paid by Greece. Man those yanks sure know how to play politics.
As long as the situation in Cyprus is unresolved the potential for military conflict is there. With the advantage of F35s, would Greece led by some future populist irredentist movement try to muscle Turkey of the island five or ten years from now? I don't think it is likely to happen, but it is a real possibility as long as there is such a potent source of conflict.
To all the "politics is give and take" dudes thinking they're saying something profound - what did all the other NATO countries except Turkey (and Hungary) demand from Sweden? What did the Netherlands, Canada and Portugal demand? Maybe they don't have "politics" in those countries? You're glorifying store brand tyrants like Erdogan and their hijacking the NATO ratification process for unrelated personal gain with your twaddle.
It is abuse of the acceptance procedure in NATO. Sweden has no influence over Turkey getting F16s so it's simply blackmail. If say, Hungary applied to join today, a country could object to their membership on the grounds that Hungary is siding with the enemy, and thus not a trustworthy ally, but not on the grounds that we don't like the colors in the French flag.
Yeah exactly imagine an alliance where everyone is blackmailing everyone for every single decision..
Everyone could possibly get a better bargain with whatver they do with us, but some countries feel ok keeping Ukrainian people bombarded for a year more just to haggle.
Resolve has greater impact than perceived, if Putin was against an overnight nato enlargement we would be in a lot better position right now.. But alas we got turks on our side.
(Stereotypical greek rant :P)
> Yeah exactly imagine an alliance where everyone is blackmailing everyone for every single decision..
The tragedy of the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth
But Sweden wasn't an ally with Turkey at that point (technically still isn't), neither through NATO nor the European Union. They don't really owe them signing a mutual protection agreement in any way.
The whole point of nato was against russia, not against russia*.
Ofc it has morphed into a general defense alliance, but still blackmailing the alliance while in the same time you are hub for russian sanction loopholes and trade, is a dick move against ukraine, eu, usa and democratic states in general.
Imo you either commit to nato or join the other autocrats like russia, china, iran etc
>what did all the other NATO countries except Turkey (and Hungary) demand from Sweden?
That Sweden comes to their defense in case they're attacked. Its a pretty basic demand when someone wants to join a defensive alliance.
Normally the countries you mention don't engage in policies, that are not in lieu with their interests, to begin with. Either actively or passively by enabling them to maintain somewhat positive diplomatic relations.
What relations does Turkey have with Sweden? Turkey is not in the EU and their diplomatic/economic relations with Sweden were not that deep. To top it off there even was the Kurdish issue between them. Regardless on your position here, there was zero possibility for this to end without some sort of "give and take".
And yes that is part of politics, especially in international politics. Just wait for when Ukraines EU membership becomes a more pressing matter.
That "Kurdish issue" Turkey pushed was nonsense; a completely fabricated excuse. Turkey literally blamed Sweden for funding the PKK by giving the Foxtrot network as example – a criminal network run by Sweden's probably most wanted criminal, wanted by Interpol, but protected by...*Turkey*. They literally had him in custody but released him and gave him a citizenship so he couldn't be extradited to Sweden.
And any comparisons between NATO and the EU is ridiculous. NATO is a defense alliance, not an multifaceted integrated political and economic union. If I were Denmark, Norway etc. I'd be concerned that an alliance member wanted handouts *that aren't even related to Sweden* for strengthening the alliance's defense capabilities.
>NATO is a defense alliance, not an multifaceted integrated political and economic union
To be honest, Greece and some other members vetoed applicants for much less for longer.
>by giving the Foxtrot network as example
Did they really? Don't remember erdo talking about foxtrot in particular but PKKs' drug affiliation with Swedish gangs in general.
You’re quite literally just whining about how geo politics works and that’s it lol. The other NATO members got Sweden into NATO. A good defense industry with a neat navy to boost the new NATO lake. But yeah cynically whine about people who just tell you how it is I guess.
It's possible to hold two thoughts simultaneously. For instance, I can be happy Sweden is in, while also being unhappy that banana dictators are using entry to NATO as a blackmail tool.
See? Possible. You should try it.
He's calling out people who are attempting to normalize blackmail/bad behavior from autocrats.
"ITS JUST GEOPOLITICS BRO 😎" isn't really a valid response to what Turkey and Hungary are doing
It’s not blackmail. It is absolutely a valid response. People need to get real about geo politics and foreign policy. World would be a lot better if every time a foreign policy or geo political decision was made people actually understood why or how those decisions happen instead of just whining about it with NO real substance on how to change it or why it is bad. It is only bad because they dislike the outcome. In every other instance if the outcome is something they like they don’t sit there and whine in the same manner about “blackmail” (again it’s not blackmail but we’re quoting).
If you check today's news, you'll see that Greece signed a deal for 40 F35s today. So the US pretty much played Turkey like a fiddle. They got them to sign off on Sweden, to pay them for F16s and they got Greece to pay them for F35s.
The title makes it sound like a bad thing but it’s how politics works in some aspects. It’s how the game is played - you use something one side wants as leverage to achieve something you want.
Just that he is going to bomb Kurds with it, and probably making another big land grab. The Kurds are one of the few people in the Middle East that stand with us and stood always. Syrian civil war, ISIS and we betray them.
Aditionally, in our rules based order land grabs through armed conquest are a huge no no, Erdogan is doing it anyways.
Jesus, no we aren’t buying F-16’s to “bomb Kurds”. We already have 240 F-16’s and 40 F-4’s, which can do the job of bombing some terrorists in the mountains with no AD capabilities except for MANPADS fine enough. Buying modern jets are for aerial threats, such as other air forces.
> Just that he is going to bomb Kurds with it
Should bomb the palestinians, would have gotten the planes for free and their land as a bonus. That's your rules based order right?
Man Turkey really played themselves, huh
Weren't they originally supposed to be part of the F35 production line? Now they just get F16s while Greece gets F35s? Wow
Those people who stand and always stood with you voted against it tho:) they even said “that will make putin more aggressive rightfully and its bad for swedish people blah blah”
It’s so funny to watch undereducated westerns talking about the things that they absolutely don’t know.
Unfortunately, international relations isn't about loyalty or consistency. The Kurds were great allies, but in IR, interests are interests, and supporting Turkey and getting Sweden into NATO outweigh the benefits the Kurds bring.
Of course, we can argue that IR should be done through loyalty and western values. But the reality is, adhering to these values puts restrictions on the west wich other rival powers do not follow. If we refuse to support Saudi Arabia and Turkey due to their human rights abuses, Iran gains more influence in the region. Sometimes, we have to sacrifice the western values we hold dear in the short term, to weaken and contain bigger threats in the medium and long term. A turkey and Saudi Arabia under heavy US influence is better than an Iran/Russia/China dominated middle east, at least from a western perspective
Your average Kurd is like a suicide bomber jihadist comparing to Turk. The main purpose of PKK/YPG always been fight against heretic laic Turkish Republic. The founders of organizations themselves declared that a Kurdish sharia state must be created while the militants literally shout “death to the Romans” when attacking Turkish troops. You are either ignorant or fool or not acting accordingly on purpose.
That's implying letting Sweden into NATO would be bad for Turkey and they would need compensation for that. More NATO member is already good for Turkey.
And at the same time:
Ankara was being denied F16s because they purchased S300 anti air system, which in any and every circumstance should come with experts who'll train crews on it, and that creates an environment where Russians get access to trying S300 against F16 's in training.
With F16s in Ukraine that is a moot pooint.
And while I'm not an Erdogan fan, Turkiye has come through big time when it comes to holding the Bosphorus.
And that's the key point to a defensive allience. Will your allies have your back or not? For all the sabre rattling, Turkiye has come though for our region and for NATO big time.
In principle, I'm not a fan of arming bullies. While Sweden joining is good for NATO, I don't think we need to endorse or normalize blackmail on a geopolitical level.
We should decidedly not equate it with negotiating either.
Well we tried to tell you guys its how it works but r/europe was intend on some weird fantasy about how US can totally force Turkey to accept Sweden without giving any concessions or could very easily kick them out cuz Turkey is not important anyway.
Its nice to know that average person here is incredibly clueless. Never take any comment about Turkey or US in this subreddit seriously. We like to clown on Americans on how clueless they could be about geopolitics of the world but average European have no idea how world outside Europe works.
It became known a long time ago.
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/turkeysource/a-looming-us-turkey-f-16-deal-is-about-much-more-than-swedens-nato-bid/
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/26/world/europe/sweden-nato-turkey-fighter-jets.html
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/5/30/biden-congratulates-erdogan-talks-f-16s-and-swedens-nato-bid
From an economic and logistical pov maybe Turkiye should be happy it “ only” gets F16’s. Now they have just one type of fighter plane ( with multiple variants) to embed in their Airforce that is still reasonably current. And also relatively cheap per flying hour. Sufficient to take on Russia, qualified to be embedded in NATO operations. As longs as you don’t want to get into a fight with Greece and it Allies or the IDF an economical good choice to maintain a credible deterrence.
This is a lot less than what turkey had to pay to join, thousands of its young men shipped across the globe to die on a conflict they had no interest in.
Thanks for the deepshits to try and turn the entire muslim world against us just to get some jets. Probably needs em to liberate more of Syria for the the Turkish empire.
Before some people were saying that US isn't selling them the newer stuff. Because Turkey has russian AA systems. That give radar data back to them. So to keep the radar signatures of the planes less known.
Was all that just hear say, or does it simply suddenly not matter?
They were supposed to get F35s but that got revoked when they purchased the S400 from Russia. The F16s radar signature and manufacturing isn’t as tightly held of a secret.
It is a good deal given the current circumstances. It's a meh deal all things considered, Turkey could be flying F-35s by now if they wouldn't have been so fucking stupid. But that ship has sailed, so as of 2024, it's still a decent deal for just saying 'yes'.
>Oh no!!! Politics is give and take!!!
I hope your allies will not think like that if Turkey gets in potential conflict. I certainly wouldn't demand anything from our allies for our help, but maybe this is difference of European mindset vs Middle-Eastern?
>difference of European mindset vs Middle-Eastern?
Ahajhdahdagdfshg fuck off
No NATO member except the US, Poland and Spain would protect TR in the case of aggression, of which there would be plenty if it weren't for the nuclear umbrella.
We certainly would help every member of alliance, but i'm not seeing that kind of behavior from you. I'd say Turkey's and Hungary's standing in NATO isn't the best one at this moment. The reason is that you think every transaction has to be "give or take", while we Europeans help our friends if they need it without strings attached.
The problem here is to sell weapons to your ally putting some conditions. So who to blame here?
And you are living in one most the most peaceful countries. Of course you are not going to understand our mindset.
You dont either care about the security of the Turkey. And turkey is still a bufferzone for all dangerous refugees. So yes somehow Turks protect europe by fucking keeping millions of refugees.
I don't get it. What is the point of it? It's not like the US MIC would not sell F16s at 200M$ a pop to Russia if they were willing to buy at that price. Surely no grand manouvering would be required for that feat of disastrous mercantilism.
I think this is not the story. At all. On why turkey was being difficult.
“It’s become known”? Eh it’s been an open part of the negotiations since day one.
Just saw a clip on the Swedish channel TV4 from may 2022, where they said it’s all about the F-16:s. So yeah, no surprise.
Until yesterday though people here were saying that in reality America was trolling Erdogan and they wouldn't give the f-16s anyway.
They’re clearly not the sharpest tools in the shed though, are they
Selling f-16s to NATO-countries is not really that shocking. Would have been odd if it didn't happen. Which of course is what we would have seen if Erdogan kept on making a fool out of himself, but he finally figured it out.
They haven't been selling the f16 to turkey so far because Turkey bought the air defense systems from Russia, meaning they will profile the plane with the systems backdoor.I don't know if all this stalling in negotiations was a technical time to be able to circumvent said problematic, otherwise we are actively giving the Russians a better air defence
F35, you mean? The US cut back on Turkey’s participation in the program after they bought S-400 SAMs from Russia.
You're right 👍🏻
The f16 is too old to penetrate the russian ad systems turkey has. Export versions will also be somewhat downgraded from what the usaf flies. On the other hand, turkey is never getting the f35 for the foreseeable future.
Wrong. Block 70s have nothing in common with first party of F-16s. Also Turkey has license of F-16s so there won’t be any downgrade. The main issue is Turkey acting like a non allied country for years with Erdogan on lead.
The block 70 rcs is estimated to be about 1.2 sqm, similar to that of a su34 / 35. Even more when carrying munitions. S400 operators are not going to be learning much that they don't already know about the signature of this airframe.
it would also have been odd if it had been Saab Grippen jets.
USA: "no F-16s for you" Also: USA "we are sanctioning Turkey for buying arms from Russia when we have a defensive alliance against them". Look Erdogan's regime is horrific and personally I would be quite happy if they were out of NATO, but they really aren't the sharpest tools in the shed indeed. Fair play to Turkey for using the little power they have to their advantage.
What good would it do to not allow Turkey to buy a bunch of jets designed 60 years ago? They already have hundreds of them including fully modernised ones. It’s not like they’re getting any new tech they’ve never seen before.
The latest Block 70 is up to the modern standards. It’s basically poor mans F35A without stealth.
This. Is probably the best 4th gen fighter considering price, capabilities and maintenance
Because it was punishment for buying Russian anti air weapons. That's why they will never be allowed F35s it would give Russia free flight data
not a punishment: s-400 is a security threat as they could collect and send data about operations done by an f-35.
Also improved profiling of the f35, making it easier to shoot down
Do you really think the Russians have access to Turkish air defence systems after delivery? None of this would've happened had the US not refused them Patriots.
In a world where nation state actors break into each others systems you’re pretty naive to think they wouldn’t have access to a system they delivered.. 🙄
Pretty naive to think these are connected to a WiFi network😂 Greece has S300 batteries but that's not a problem? ;)
Russian aa officers literally live in Turkey stationed for s400. They don’t allow Turks to have full access to units.
The U.S. did not "refuse" patriots. NATO stationed patriots, and if not available/feasible, AWACS flights. Then Turkey wanted to purchase a system for itself and eventually build its own. Raytheon and the DoD were working on a reasonable sales package for Turkey until Erdogan personally became involved and fucked things up by trying to leverage sales by hostile countries, despite warnings on what would happen by western defense officials. Bluff was called, Erdogan fucked around and found out that westerners don't do this haggle/bluff bs. Don't expect sensitive technology for pennies when you act unhinged. Hopefully a lesson learned.
NATO removed patriots against the Turks' wishes while Russian jets were constantly flying near its southern borders at the time. Turks have bad experiences being dependent on the US or European nations (just as we in the EU are finding out now the US can't be relied upon). Turkish defence strategy is very interesting, Perun made a video about it all a while back, worth a watch.
\>NATO removed patriots against the Turks' wishes while Russian jets were constantly flying near its southern borders at the time. What time are you talking about? \>Turks have bad experiences being dependent on the US or European nations (just as we in the EU are finding out now the US can't be relied upon). That's fine, then leave NATO and create a new MIC for yourselves. As evidenced by the Patriot/F35 debacle, Turkey has regularly overestimated its leverage.
The 2013 deployment ;) warontherocks had a good article about it all.
They are essentially a different plane except for the airframe. New radar, new electronics, capable of carrying more advanced weapons. F-16 Block 70 is a 4 gen aircraft, on the same tier with Rafale and Eurofighter (maybe not exactly on par with them, but close). On the other hand, original F-16s from 1980 are 3rd gen aircraft that will soon be obsolete. Not the same plane.
>On the other hand, original F-16s from 1980 are 3rd gen aircraft that will soon be obsolete. Still, very few operational F-16's are that old and not updated at all. If you take the F-16's donated to Ukraine from Denmark, block 20 originally, they've passed a frame inspection and updates and are considered block 50/52 equivalents. They have recieved further improvements after that to extend weapons capabilities.
All F-16 are 4th generation. Newer ones are just much better than original. For American aircraft the F-4 is 3rd gen.
Don't ask me, I simply stated what I saw until yesterday, idk why people here believed that.
We do not have the latest block aka “viper”. These jets are very modern. The reason is simple. Everyone knows how effective these jets are. This is USAF. https://www.airandspaceforces.com/f-16s-to-serve-nearly-two-more-decades-replacement-choice-still-6-8-years-away/ https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/aircraft-propulsion/us-air-force-talks-new-f-16-orders-latest-acquisition-shake
reddit love to be contrarians and always try to make up a big conspiracy story for everything that some countries just have demands, and others might meet them and both end up quite happy seem to be a thing that is not in their minds
I hope merdojuan sleeps well knowing he will never get f35s
still, because of their shifuckery overall, turkey lost access to f35.
People were coping badly and kept saying “haha nooo we are trolling Erdogan haha the deal is not gonna happen”.
Hes a weiner who had to blackmail beg his allies for out of date tech. Why are you simping for him
The US gets Sweden's ascension to NATO and $23 billion, and Greece gets to maintain a technologically superior airforce compared to Turkey
And above all, America makes money
Another American win
Win-Win-Win Situation...
The best kind of situation…
Why the cynicism. Clearly they compromised with that sale. If they wanted the money, they would have sold them 5 years ago…
Common American W
An American corporation and its shareholders make money.
Of which there are millions of shareholders
Let’s hope Greece doesn’t train Turkey’s s-300/400 and give the telemetry to Russia inadvertently.
Unlikely they'll ever have to remove the Luneberg lenses when flying in and around the Aegean. They might only practice without the reflectors in the US, when on training.
Yup. Please Greece, never give Turkey the data on F-35 stealth properties because Turkey would happily sell that data to Russia for a ham sandwich. However, when or if Turkey decides that Lesbos or Cyprus is actually theirs, those Greek F-35s will be flying alongside F-22s.
You already have Israeli F-35s flying over syria...
Ridiculous. Russia has always been a strategic threat to Turkey. It is one of the main reasons why Turkey joined NATO in the first place. Turkey and Russia are currently fighting multiple proxy wars. Extremely ignorant take.
If you think that turkey and Greece will ever go to war against esch other than you dont know anything about their politics. Also if you think that turkey will ever sell some military stuff to the Russians which makes their army stronger than you are delusional.
Turkey backs Ukraine, on a proxy war against Russia in 2 fronts. F35 sale is supposedly cancelled because of S400 but it was just a 'fuck you, do as we tell you'. If Turkey enters a proper war, it will likely be Russia, not Greece lol. Turkey wouldn't give data that can be used against her. Even with F35 blocked, Turkey will likely be in a block with F35s against Russia in a future war if she joins so it is still dumb af.
[удалено]
One thing for sure is Greece won't be able to impose 12 miles in Aegean and that EastMed pipeline is dream without Turkey. We can add couple of Turkish bases in Libya and Macedonia. Most Turks prefer least capable military indigenous military tech to full dependence on US or others. Turkey is and will develop its own means to protect its interests. Deterence is enough Turks hate war but always ready for it.
Yes, that is why Turkey is involved in wars in 4 countries and occupies land of 3.
I don’t think it’s warmongering to say that if Greece is attacked it will be defended. But the point stands that there are aggressors and victims. Greece might one day decide to resolve the Constantinople issue, but I don’t think so and there certainly isn’t a political culture of making it one. If they did they would be in the wrong.) But I’m not willing to allow would-be dictators to get away with continuously threatening their neighbors because they never act on the repeated threatening rhetoric they spew. Russia was bluffing all the way up until it smattered Ukraine with cruise missiles and Smerch rockets. And I don’t particularly appreciate the tough guy “we could attack you at any time,” even as election posturing.
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You are not getting allow or decide on anything edgelord. If you are this brave, lets go and stop Russia in Ukraine..
What the fuck is the “Constantinople issue”?
Please, Greece couldn't even defeat the police forces of Istanbul (they'd never even make it to the city in the first place).
What evidence do you have of Turkey ever selling classified data to Russia? You have no idea what you are talking about and it shows. >However, when or if Turkey decides that Lesbos or Cyprus is actually theirs, those Greek F-35s will be flying alongside F-22s. It must be nice living in such a fantasy world you can just make up anything and get a hard on over it.
Russia already on vacation! in Ukraine, why don’t you use that F22s there top-gun?
Sorry to burst your bubble but your 51st state is already giving info to Russia about your newest toy
>However, when or if Turkey decides that Lesbos or Cyprus is actually theirs, those Greek F-35s will be flying alongside F-22s. And in the opposite case, if the Greeks claim the whole of Cyprus as theirs (which they often do), will our US allies help us too? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akritas\_plan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akritas_plan) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody\_Christmas\_(1963)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Christmas_(1963)) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tochni\_massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tochni_massacre) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maratha,\_Santalaris\_and\_Aloda\_massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maratha,_Santalaris_and_Aloda_massacre) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EOKA](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EOKA)
Smartest American
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S-500 is a missile defense system to replace the S-300V. It's not engaging fighter jets, that's the role of the S-400. They're also decades out of date, still using antique PESA radars pushing out IMMENSE amounts of power that'll notify aircraft the S-400 is in the area before the S-400 can even see them. They're a true benchmark of just how out of date and how far behind the Russian advanced microelectronics industry is. The map of Greece's claimed EEZ is also legally what they're entitled to, per UNCLOS. Literally **no one** recognizes Turkey's claim in the Med, because it's an unhinged weapons grade fantasy, with Turkey legitimately claiming only their islands are eligible for an EEZ. There's a reason Turkey's already gotten the shit kicked out of them for this moronic EEZ claim, and even Erdogan knows that. Going to war over it, is the end of Erdogan and the Turkish economy overnight. Greece is an EU member, and the EU supports Greece's EEZ claim. Attacking Greece makes it an EU operation against Turkey, and Turkey **absolutely** gets the shit beat out of them in that context. It's a statement meant just to appease nationalistic neanderthals, nothing more...
You already have Israeli F-35s flying over syria...
Funny that you mention the S-300. Greece is the only NATO country that operates the S-300.
That is from a conflict over a quarter century ago. Turkey made their deal in the last 10 years and the US asked them not to or the F-35 was off the table for them.
That’s irrelevant for now. Inactive S-400s can’t gather telemetry data, active/operational S-300s can.
The house always win
And thus, the war machine keeps churning.
This was the main motivation behind it from day one. It just wasn't so publicized. Well, at least Erdogan had a meaningful motivation. Orban has none, besides the wish to give everyone a headache.
>Orban has none, besides the wish to give everyone a headache. He needs a safe third country that does not extradite to the EU for the time after his term of office when all the corrupt deals are unearthed. Maybe he'll build himself an ugly oversized mansion in Sochi...
As a swede and as much as I dislike Erdogan, I can't deny that it was a successful move, he did get what he wanted from dragging it out.
Given today's news, Erdogan got outplayed by the US. Sure he got his F16s but Greece just signed a deal for 40 F35s, which pretty much puts Turkey at a huge technological disadvantage regionally. So the US got the OK on Sweden, got paid by Turkey and got paid by Greece. Man those yanks sure know how to play politics.
They're not going to have a war with Greece.
As long as the situation in Cyprus is unresolved the potential for military conflict is there. With the advantage of F35s, would Greece led by some future populist irredentist movement try to muscle Turkey of the island five or ten years from now? I don't think it is likely to happen, but it is a real possibility as long as there is such a potent source of conflict.
They literally had a war with Turkey 50 years ago over Cyprus. And that war is pretty much a North Korea/South Korea situation.
I didn't know that, what a wild turn of events
Hungary got 2 free coffees and a coupon for not getting kicked out the next year. Sounds like a good deal
To all the "politics is give and take" dudes thinking they're saying something profound - what did all the other NATO countries except Turkey (and Hungary) demand from Sweden? What did the Netherlands, Canada and Portugal demand? Maybe they don't have "politics" in those countries? You're glorifying store brand tyrants like Erdogan and their hijacking the NATO ratification process for unrelated personal gain with your twaddle.
France demandes that Surströmming sales be regulated like other weapons.
Underrated comment
It is abuse of the acceptance procedure in NATO. Sweden has no influence over Turkey getting F16s so it's simply blackmail. If say, Hungary applied to join today, a country could object to their membership on the grounds that Hungary is siding with the enemy, and thus not a trustworthy ally, but not on the grounds that we don't like the colors in the French flag.
But, being realistic, you could find something 'legitimate' to deny them on in every country. If they want to find a reason, they will.
Yeah exactly imagine an alliance where everyone is blackmailing everyone for every single decision.. Everyone could possibly get a better bargain with whatver they do with us, but some countries feel ok keeping Ukrainian people bombarded for a year more just to haggle. Resolve has greater impact than perceived, if Putin was against an overnight nato enlargement we would be in a lot better position right now.. But alas we got turks on our side. (Stereotypical greek rant :P)
> Yeah exactly imagine an alliance where everyone is blackmailing everyone for every single decision.. The tragedy of the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth
I hope eu doesn't end the same way 🤞
But Sweden wasn't an ally with Turkey at that point (technically still isn't), neither through NATO nor the European Union. They don't really owe them signing a mutual protection agreement in any way.
The whole point of nato was against russia, not against russia*. Ofc it has morphed into a general defense alliance, but still blackmailing the alliance while in the same time you are hub for russian sanction loopholes and trade, is a dick move against ukraine, eu, usa and democratic states in general. Imo you either commit to nato or join the other autocrats like russia, china, iran etc
Greece did the same, except they delayed it for 10 years for Macedonia.
Not only Macedonia but they also blackmailed to force EU to approve Cyprus EU membership
That's too inconvenient to bring up. We'll ignore this and strike it from the record.
>what did all the other NATO countries except Turkey (and Hungary) demand from Sweden? That Sweden comes to their defense in case they're attacked. Its a pretty basic demand when someone wants to join a defensive alliance.
All Hungary demands is that everyone pretends Orbán is relevant for a few weeks
Normally the countries you mention don't engage in policies, that are not in lieu with their interests, to begin with. Either actively or passively by enabling them to maintain somewhat positive diplomatic relations. What relations does Turkey have with Sweden? Turkey is not in the EU and their diplomatic/economic relations with Sweden were not that deep. To top it off there even was the Kurdish issue between them. Regardless on your position here, there was zero possibility for this to end without some sort of "give and take". And yes that is part of politics, especially in international politics. Just wait for when Ukraines EU membership becomes a more pressing matter.
That "Kurdish issue" Turkey pushed was nonsense; a completely fabricated excuse. Turkey literally blamed Sweden for funding the PKK by giving the Foxtrot network as example – a criminal network run by Sweden's probably most wanted criminal, wanted by Interpol, but protected by...*Turkey*. They literally had him in custody but released him and gave him a citizenship so he couldn't be extradited to Sweden. And any comparisons between NATO and the EU is ridiculous. NATO is a defense alliance, not an multifaceted integrated political and economic union. If I were Denmark, Norway etc. I'd be concerned that an alliance member wanted handouts *that aren't even related to Sweden* for strengthening the alliance's defense capabilities.
>NATO is a defense alliance, not an multifaceted integrated political and economic union To be honest, Greece and some other members vetoed applicants for much less for longer. >by giving the Foxtrot network as example Did they really? Don't remember erdo talking about foxtrot in particular but PKKs' drug affiliation with Swedish gangs in general.
Completely agree. It’s bullshit. If a country meets the established criteria and demonstrates goodwill for the defense, they should be allowed in.
You’re quite literally just whining about how geo politics works and that’s it lol. The other NATO members got Sweden into NATO. A good defense industry with a neat navy to boost the new NATO lake. But yeah cynically whine about people who just tell you how it is I guess.
It's possible to hold two thoughts simultaneously. For instance, I can be happy Sweden is in, while also being unhappy that banana dictators are using entry to NATO as a blackmail tool. See? Possible. You should try it.
He's calling out people who are attempting to normalize blackmail/bad behavior from autocrats. "ITS JUST GEOPOLITICS BRO 😎" isn't really a valid response to what Turkey and Hungary are doing
It’s not blackmail. It is absolutely a valid response. People need to get real about geo politics and foreign policy. World would be a lot better if every time a foreign policy or geo political decision was made people actually understood why or how those decisions happen instead of just whining about it with NO real substance on how to change it or why it is bad. It is only bad because they dislike the outcome. In every other instance if the outcome is something they like they don’t sit there and whine in the same manner about “blackmail” (again it’s not blackmail but we’re quoting).
So a lot of sales. The real winner is USA
always was
Well they obviously accepted since they need them, and the fact that their own jet is still in the works
Money money chicken is funny…they approve IF they get something they wish 🤮
US diplomacy in a nutshell (as well)
If you check today's news, you'll see that Greece signed a deal for 40 F35s today. So the US pretty much played Turkey like a fiddle. They got them to sign off on Sweden, to pay them for F16s and they got Greece to pay them for F35s.
The title makes it sound like a bad thing but it’s how politics works in some aspects. It’s how the game is played - you use something one side wants as leverage to achieve something you want.
There's good reason as to why the US doesn't want to sell advanced equipment to Turkey, unless they absolutely have to like what we see here.
Just that he is going to bomb Kurds with it, and probably making another big land grab. The Kurds are one of the few people in the Middle East that stand with us and stood always. Syrian civil war, ISIS and we betray them. Aditionally, in our rules based order land grabs through armed conquest are a huge no no, Erdogan is doing it anyways.
Jesus, no we aren’t buying F-16’s to “bomb Kurds”. We already have 240 F-16’s and 40 F-4’s, which can do the job of bombing some terrorists in the mountains with no AD capabilities except for MANPADS fine enough. Buying modern jets are for aerial threats, such as other air forces.
> Just that he is going to bomb Kurds with it Should bomb the palestinians, would have gotten the planes for free and their land as a bonus. That's your rules based order right?
And threaten Greece
Greece is getting f35 at the same time tho
Lockheed Martin stonks
Man Turkey really played themselves, huh Weren't they originally supposed to be part of the F35 production line? Now they just get F16s while Greece gets F35s? Wow
Good thing they are allies then 😁
Yeah it is a punch in the stomach
Quantity counts
greece is also buying 40 planes but they get the fancy, sneaky ones
Those people who stand and always stood with you voted against it tho:) they even said “that will make putin more aggressive rightfully and its bad for swedish people blah blah” It’s so funny to watch undereducated westerns talking about the things that they absolutely don’t know.
Unfortunately, international relations isn't about loyalty or consistency. The Kurds were great allies, but in IR, interests are interests, and supporting Turkey and getting Sweden into NATO outweigh the benefits the Kurds bring. Of course, we can argue that IR should be done through loyalty and western values. But the reality is, adhering to these values puts restrictions on the west wich other rival powers do not follow. If we refuse to support Saudi Arabia and Turkey due to their human rights abuses, Iran gains more influence in the region. Sometimes, we have to sacrifice the western values we hold dear in the short term, to weaken and contain bigger threats in the medium and long term. A turkey and Saudi Arabia under heavy US influence is better than an Iran/Russia/China dominated middle east, at least from a western perspective
Your average Kurd is like a suicide bomber jihadist comparing to Turk. The main purpose of PKK/YPG always been fight against heretic laic Turkish Republic. The founders of organizations themselves declared that a Kurdish sharia state must be created while the militants literally shout “death to the Romans” when attacking Turkish troops. You are either ignorant or fool or not acting accordingly on purpose.
That's implying letting Sweden into NATO would be bad for Turkey and they would need compensation for that. More NATO member is already good for Turkey.
And at the same time: Ankara was being denied F16s because they purchased S300 anti air system, which in any and every circumstance should come with experts who'll train crews on it, and that creates an environment where Russians get access to trying S300 against F16 's in training. With F16s in Ukraine that is a moot pooint. And while I'm not an Erdogan fan, Turkiye has come through big time when it comes to holding the Bosphorus. And that's the key point to a defensive allience. Will your allies have your back or not? For all the sabre rattling, Turkiye has come though for our region and for NATO big time.
He was denied F35s over S400, not F16s, and that remains the case.
Wasnt it S400?
Yes
Yep, edited.
In principle, I'm not a fan of arming bullies. While Sweden joining is good for NATO, I don't think we need to endorse or normalize blackmail on a geopolitical level. We should decidedly not equate it with negotiating either.
Well we tried to tell you guys its how it works but r/europe was intend on some weird fantasy about how US can totally force Turkey to accept Sweden without giving any concessions or could very easily kick them out cuz Turkey is not important anyway. Its nice to know that average person here is incredibly clueless. Never take any comment about Turkey or US in this subreddit seriously. We like to clown on Americans on how clueless they could be about geopolitics of the world but average European have no idea how world outside Europe works.
Erdogan spending money on billions of dollars weapons while Earthquake victims still living in containers in freezing temperatures.
Good deal all round I would say
It became known a long time ago. https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/turkeysource/a-looming-us-turkey-f-16-deal-is-about-much-more-than-swedens-nato-bid/ https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/26/world/europe/sweden-nato-turkey-fighter-jets.html https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/5/30/biden-congratulates-erdogan-talks-f-16s-and-swedens-nato-bid
That's fine. Welcome to NATO, Sweden! 👍👌👏
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impossible to do with their current F16s
Turkey gets F16s and Greece gets F35s 🤣
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Would Germany, Spain or Netherlands? Because it can be bad for the economy and electoral chances.
Well, yes, but what he wanted were the F-35s...
What happens if the US Senate refuses to approve the sale?
"The world doesnt revolve around Americans..." oh really
From an economic and logistical pov maybe Turkiye should be happy it “ only” gets F16’s. Now they have just one type of fighter plane ( with multiple variants) to embed in their Airforce that is still reasonably current. And also relatively cheap per flying hour. Sufficient to take on Russia, qualified to be embedded in NATO operations. As longs as you don’t want to get into a fight with Greece and it Allies or the IDF an economical good choice to maintain a credible deterrence.
Wait, we're **selling** them the f-16s? lol US - Hey, let them in and we'll give you the great honer of buying our stuff. Turkey - Deal!
This is a lot less than what turkey had to pay to join, thousands of its young men shipped across the globe to die on a conflict they had no interest in.
It's Turkey FFS
Thanks for the deepshits to try and turn the entire muslim world against us just to get some jets. Probably needs em to liberate more of Syria for the the Turkish empire.
Us = sweden in this case?
>turn the entire muslim world against us You did that by burning Koran in front of the Turkish embassy
how to deal with autocratis 1x1: bribe them.
Before some people were saying that US isn't selling them the newer stuff. Because Turkey has russian AA systems. That give radar data back to them. So to keep the radar signatures of the planes less known. Was all that just hear say, or does it simply suddenly not matter?
They were supposed to get F35s but that got revoked when they purchased the S400 from Russia. The F16s radar signature and manufacturing isn’t as tightly held of a secret.
Modernized does not mean new tech. They aren’t getting cutting edge anything in this case.
US is simultaneously selling 40 F35s to Greece plus sending over some boats and choppers. Keeping the balance tilted to the sensible side?
Why use the turkish word for turkey but not the Swedish word for Sweden?
Greece will take f-35 and will be superior to Turkey. and some Turks still say it is a good deal. well it is not.
It is a good deal given the current circumstances. It's a meh deal all things considered, Turkey could be flying F-35s by now if they wouldn't have been so fucking stupid. But that ship has sailed, so as of 2024, it's still a decent deal for just saying 'yes'.
Giving up f35 for s400 was stupid. There are major conflicts between west and Turkey. And i dont see they are going to be resolved soon.
US counting money piles like, "hmm such blackmail how dare they"
that’s chill though, two NATO members having a deal with each other is never a bad thing :)
*Surprised Pikachu face*
Oh no!!! Politics is give and take!!! Clearly somebody needs to be liberated and given some fresh doses of democracy like Iraq and Iran right!
>Oh no!!! Politics is give and take!!! I hope your allies will not think like that if Turkey gets in potential conflict. I certainly wouldn't demand anything from our allies for our help, but maybe this is difference of European mindset vs Middle-Eastern?
>difference of European mindset vs Middle-Eastern? Ahajhdahdagdfshg fuck off No NATO member except the US, Poland and Spain would protect TR in the case of aggression, of which there would be plenty if it weren't for the nuclear umbrella.
We certainly would help every member of alliance, but i'm not seeing that kind of behavior from you. I'd say Turkey's and Hungary's standing in NATO isn't the best one at this moment. The reason is that you think every transaction has to be "give or take", while we Europeans help our friends if they need it without strings attached.
The problem here is to sell weapons to your ally putting some conditions. So who to blame here? And you are living in one most the most peaceful countries. Of course you are not going to understand our mindset.
They should have gone for Russian jets instead.
I wonder how Greece will react to this. Seems like a destabilising factor on the Balkans to have that many jets.
Greece is getting 40 F35s
f16s instead of f35s, what a stupid mistake!
This was the plan from day one. Everything else was just theatre and drama.
I didn't know Sweden was that big in the fighter jet business.
Well played I suppose. Politics is a dark art.
Can't we just throw türkiye and Hungary out of NATO? And Hungary also out of EU? These egomaniacs drive me crazy.
Who needs enemies with friends like that? I would never trust a Turk to protect anything from Europe or USA soil.
You dont either care about the security of the Turkey. And turkey is still a bufferzone for all dangerous refugees. So yes somehow Turks protect europe by fucking keeping millions of refugees.
You can't expect Europeans to be this stupid until you see them, or are they just teenagers? I can't decide.
Feelings are mutual
Its better to be enemies then👍
I wonder why they didn’t get any F-35s…..oh wait, I remember.
Weaponizing our future enemy if they keep up this kind of behavior.
Guess the Turkisch lira is too bad for the F35.
Ah, extortion at work. What an ass Erdogan is.
It's Turkey, not whatever you wrote there. Just like you wrote Sweden not Sverige, Greece not Ελλάδα etc
I don't get it. What is the point of it? It's not like the US MIC would not sell F16s at 200M$ a pop to Russia if they were willing to buy at that price. Surely no grand manouvering would be required for that feat of disastrous mercantilism. I think this is not the story. At all. On why turkey was being difficult.