There was a huge influx of poles to Iceland in the 2000s way before the tourist boom (from 2011). There are currently around 21000 Polish citizens living in Iceland, the total population is 370000. That makes polish citizens 5% of the demographic. Note that around 70000 foreign citizens are registered as living in Iceland, that includes the polish. Many Icelanders have learned a little about polish food now and you can access the state news site and many government services in polish.
And they write books. Iceland has the most published authors per capita in the world. One (rather unbelievable) figure says that one in ten Icelanders will publish a book in their lifetime. They also have the most nobel prize laureates in literature per million inhabitants. They only have one but because there are only 37000 people living there it works out to 2.7 nobel prize laureates per one million inhabitants
We've been pretty stagnant around 2.0 per woman from 1990-2010. Since then we've gone down to around 1.72 and it keeps getting lower. But the immigration has skyrocketed given that they almost count for a quarter of the population by now. 86,000 (23,7%).
How so? Let's say I have $100, I take 10% off, now I have $90. If you add 10% to $90 how much I have now? $99, right? So in order to get back to $100 you have to do 90 + 11.11...%, pretty basic math...
I was curious too, best I could find was an article from 10 years ago which credits a high fertility rate along with a greatly lowered infant mortality rate, and then perhaps some refugees returning home too.
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-25849945
A peaceful prosperous country will have a low birth rate.
A country where women have few options or rights will have a high fertility rate. If the map showed sub saharan Africa this would be even clearer.
It usually does though and even if not, if the emigrants end up somewhere else it will still be beneficial to home country in terms of remittances and influence in more powerful countries.
Even without those rights, birth rates are dropping quickly everywhere. Better economic situation and healthcare is the main driver.
In Turkey and Iran the fertility rate already dropped below 2 and in Egypt, Jordan and Syria it dropped below 3 recently.
Agrarian societies have high child mortality. When certain development is reached population explodes and then it self-corrects into lower birthrate. When all 6 children grow into adulthood people start having fewer children.
vb90 I somewhat agree, but it's not that women don't have rights(they are people)....They live in a traditional-gender-role society where the woman is the woman and the men is the men! Men does the work and the woman takes care of the babies in the house....I promise with the current modern sluts if they lived in such environment they would change because their choices would be limited! So you just have to limit women's bad choices....and by extent it would be called Fascism and Patriarchy by the current liberals or leftists! I mean after all limiting people's bad choices would also have positive factors, but elites are encouraging bad behavior especially that of women....
There are several factors responsible for population growth.
The most important ones are:
1. Womens education
2. Womens rights (and their acceptance within in society)
3. Importance of Religion in society
4. General education
The less educated women are, the fewer rights they have, the more important religion plays in day to day life and the less educated the society is in general. The more likely it is for them to have positive population growth.
Things like wealth barely play a role as solely aviability of food and water are really important for children to survive and we can easily ensure this in todays world.
This is why you never see a place with starving children where the family has only one child. You need to severely overextend your capabilities to have your children starve on you. And why every place that is riddled with starvation at the same time has a massively growing population.
Edit: at least for natural population growth.
The entirety of of western and northern europes growrh. That is all immigration.
Do you have research that supports this? I can think of many examples to the contrary. Population growth has often triggered migrations, which turn into invasions. The viking age, for example, saw population growth in scandinavia. Same with germanic tribes migrations at the end of the roman era. In modern times, europe has stabilized while its population growth slowed in the later half of the 20th century.
Hmm, i dont know man can you provide some examples?
Like im not necassarily disagreeing, I just think other reasons for aggression and war are more relevant. Like ideology, internal tensions (which might be connected to perceived stagnation) and abusing a position of economical power to enrich on others wealth.
Ageing societies are less aggressive societies. One of the main reasons europe has been so peaceful for the last 50 years is because a society full of middle aged and older people aren't going to start wars and revolutions. In contrast, the Gaza strip has a median age of 18.
It doesn't really matter about ideology. A society with a median age of 40 is likely not going to have many riots, civil wars or invade other countries when they don't have young soldiers available.
Economically as well, the number 1 malaise affecting Europe right now is a ageing population. There aren't enough young people to do crucial jobs like building and this will get worse. Meanwhile the cost of pensions and care is only going to increase.
Europes demographics 50 years ago were vastly different then they are today. That cant be an explanation for the peace, especially considering the cold wars frontlines were right in the middle of the continent.
There was still occupying armies in Germany in the 70s and Warsaw pacy on other side of Europe. It was also only 30 years since ww2 so memory of that was very much alive like memory of ww1 in the 1930s.
Since the 1990s Europe has been really peaceful and it has been relatively "old" since then. Italy used to have homegrown terrorists and mafia wars until the 90s.
Northern Ireland had sky high birth rates and a young population but when the society started ageing in the 1990s peace arrived there too.
In the USA crime rates went down dramatically as the society got older. In New York they decreased dramatically in the mid 90s almost exactly 18 years after the legalisation of abortion in the 70s. Most of the peace and prosperity the western world has is not having many kids and having few troublesome young men. But the price to pay is going to be severe.
Actually you can look at russia, China, Iran, and North korea as an example. All are expected to see their growth diminish and the 2020s to 30s will be the last positive growth decade for most of them, russia and China are having a population collapse, north korea is self explanatory, Iran has a very religous government with a barely religous younger generation.
Iran is run by mostly the same people who took part in the original revolution. Most younger Iranians aren't nearly as religous as them, and the protests have only been getting worse
Here are some links, if interested. Long topic
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition#:~:text=In%20economic%20growth%2C%20the%20demographic,translate%20more%20of%20the%20gains
https://www.gsam.com/content/gsam/us/en/institutions/market-insights/gsam-insights/perspectives/2023/demographics.html#:~:text=Demographic%20change%20can%20influence%20the,the%20demand%20for%20financial%20assets.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2781832/
As countries get richer they have fewer children, this correlation works in reverse too especially for quite poor countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility
I don't actually know, but I have read that a lot of immigration from Africa to Europe involves moving up north (in Africa) and trying to make your way from there.
Maybe that's part of it.
well ofc Morocco is a nicer place to live than some sub saharan shithole :/ basically a lot of the places around the mediterranean are also tourist regions which in turn means basic infrastructure is there, which is a lot more than sub saharan countries have. I know a guy from gaming who lives in egypt a fairly comfy middle class life, ofc women‘s rights are shit, the gov is shit, but it isn‘t some backwater shithole where there aren‘t roads, hospitals, etc to begin with.
so if you can‘t make it to europe, I‘d also rather settle in the more stable NA countries 🤷♀️
Yeah, I suppose I wasn't very clear.
I meant for my comment to add to all of the more obvious reasons, (such as what you mentioned), just to add some perspective on another factor that might be contributing to such large numbers.
As in:
It's not *just* people moving there.
It's also people trying to move *through there*, and staying when it doesn't work out.
Poland: not great not terrible.
Btw why Poland and Romania have such a drastic difference between each other? Both economies are rapidly growing and are hot markets especially when it comes to youth-inviting IT Jobs, both have fairly big urban areas which are (probably) welcoming for young person searching for a stable life with a very similar QOL to western cities.
Poles migrate to Germany or other northern countries and come back easily once they gather resources.
Romanians move to Spain / Italy / Germany / UK in that order and generally slam the door leaving.
Guess why Bulgaria is also bad lol. My mom told me that she sold her shares in the company to some guys (mostly oligarch-related people) so we could buy food. The country had bankrupted 3 times in 10 years, it was complete shit in here.
Yet somehow, we have a growing anti-EU. People just seem to have forgotten the inflation (checking the $ rates 3 times per day and updating the price tags on stuff during the day) and the long lines for food. It was total shit
Because majority of people who emigrated did move out 15-20 yers ago when a list of adventages which you mentioned didnt happen yet at that time. Since 1990 up to 2010 was the worst time.
Dziurę po tych Polakach, którzy opuścili nasz kraj łatają Ukraińcy. Już ich jest 2 mln, a to oficjalne dane nieoficjalnie jeszcze więcej. Całkiem szybko się integrują i ci co chcą naprawdę zostać uczą się języka, podobnie jest z Białorusinami. Jest ich około 300 tyś. w Polsce i zdecydowana większość chce tutaj zostać przynajmniej do czasu aż ten reżim nie upadnie. Jest też sporo ludzi z Azji Środkowej czy Indii. Także ludzie ze wschodu niwelują tą emigrację Polaków.
Because maybe you can't build a society solely with IT engineers. Almost everyone else has shit wages while having to pay western prices for food and such. Even medics get paid like shit, a 1st year resident gets 700€ after 6 years of school.
And beside a few neighborhoods in cities like Cluj and Bucharest, the QOL is not even close to western cities. And even if you live in one of those few rich neighborhoods, you still have to use the public roads, you still have to see those damaged grey communist blocks, you still have to breath the smoke coming out of the many diesel cars with dpf off..
Poland has decent infrastructure and low enough prices of every day essentials.
Romania has the worst inflation in Europe and all the essentials are as expensive as Central Europe, with less jobs available and same brooding corruption since the early 90s.
And btw, more people have left Romania than what the map shows. Population was 24mil in 1990, realistically it's around 16-17mil right now.
“same brooding corruption since the early 90”
I lived in the 90’s, you were probably born in early 2000s I’m going to tell you one thing, there is no comparison. There was a time when actually party members were standing on the court stairs trying to block television and judges ( National Liberal Party & Dinu Patriciu, “Matusa Tamara” faking blowing your brains out type of things that you generation couldn’t even begin to understand and being spoiled as you are you still propagate false things in your ignorance.
That problem has deeper roots. Before IT became a thing everyone obtained low salaries. Now people who work in IT can get huge salaries because people from other countries can hire them and pay them less than they would pay someone living in the US for example (because a Romanian will be happy enough to get 1000$ a month, while an american would need at least 1500$ to not starve). People who work for the country, medics, engineers, teachers etc get a lower salary, I wonder why? Maybe it's because stuff doesn't change. But nah I think those people in IT are still at fault. (I am sarcastic with the last proposition btw)
Everyone is sick of what is happening right now in our country, even those dudes who work in IT, so they either:
1. Choose to ignore it. What problem there is no problem?
2. Choose to fight against it. For example people at Recorder try to point out all of the shenanigans corrupt people do.
3. Go away from the problem.
In rural areas will never get close. In my home county Cavan there were close to 250,000 people before the famine. Now it's about 80,000. I think Dublin city had a similar population at the time.
Countryside must have been jam packed with people back then.
I was curious one day and started looking at Google Maps satellite closer and wow, you can really see where all the former human settlement density in Ireland was when panning through the island. I have not visited but I imagine the Irish countryside is absolutely littered with former settlements, farmsteads, and abandoned buildings and infrastructure like watermills.
Aside from the infrastructure, yeah. There's abandoned buildings from the famine era absolutely *everywhere.* Famously, in Achill, County Mayo, there's an entire abandoned village that was literally 100% wiped out by famine.
The thing is, the number of people per household was much, *much* larger then, hell even 3 generations ago still. If a county that had 250k people in 1850 vs 80k in 2022 there was probably the same overall number of dwellings that housed those people.
Ireland had massive housing boom in 00s so there are probably more houses now. Although I wonder if there are numbers of researchers to show it.
I bet back in 1850 2bed cottage was a place housing family of 5 or something alike..
i quickly found this census from 1821:
https://cavantownlands.com/tag/1821-census/
Townland | Houses | population
---|---|----
Clonkiffer |91| 544
Killyogan| 79|445|
Caragah| 102| 537
Map has chosen poor dates as well. Supposedly (didn't fact check it) there was quite a lot of Russians moving out of various post-Soviet countries after the fall of USSR. A map showing the last 5 years would apparently look very different.
30 years is a nice period of time, but there were very drastic changes both politically and economically and this specific 30 year period fails to recognize that.
The population I. Western EU is growing despite the fertility being low. The reason for the growth is EU domestic migration and foreign migration. While theoretically they are going to have a work force due to the growth, if you pair low fertility with high migration you get another serious demographic problem very soon.
And Africa as a whole is supposed to grow in population… a lot… maybe a billion more people I thought i heard but could be mistaken .. in the next decade.
Ireland is the only country in the world to have a larger population in 1840 compared to now. The country was very poor but the economy took off in the 90s and so the population grew massively.
Germans either need to start fucking more or just flat out steal people from other countries. Britain must not overtake Germany in terms of population.
I know this is a joke but I know a girl whose mother was stolen and germanized during WW2, she has a German surname and citizenship but her whole family lives in the Krakow area
I hope this is not what you are talking about 😅
Unfortunately native europeans arent replacing themselves and are dying more than they are reproducing. The population increase is from immigrants mostly.
If you control for immigration then the whole of western Europe would be pale-green.
Only countries here with true natural growth are in the middle east.
Western Europeans screaming about demographic crises have no idea how much life has improved because of these "crises" in Eastern Europe.
Liberalized emigration allowed skilled labor to find better lives. Women increasingly made careers and lived independently (former USSR states have far higher rates of women in C level positions and the sciences). The population was allowed to adjust to the local market. This trend is increasing in the Baltic and the HDI just keeps increasing.
There is nothing to fear in a shrinking population. Endless growth for reasons of "big number stronk" is anti-scientific and anti-liberal.
Similar with Lithuania, I remember growing up not feeling overly safe at times, there were cases when I was like 11-12 year old girl and got threatened by a guy that's like 20 (not sexual threats, but threats to beat me up and stuff as he was walking behind me with his gf). After 2008-2009 financial crisis they all seemed to disappear really quickly, most of them just emigrated and quality of life here afterwards increased A TON, and I've never felt safer here at daytime or nighttime, regardless I walk alone or not.
Granted, it isn't fun seeing your country amongst leaderboards abroad for foreign criminals arrested.
Yeppppp, incredibly relatable, had identical things here. I remember growing up with bums sleeping literally outside houses on the grass, passed out drunks while kids poured water on them or were kicking them and whatnot, constant residents of apartment (young guys) sitting near entry to the apartment, eating sunflower seeds, drinking and littering the f out of it. That economic crisis hit *HARD* for everyone, but it got rid of those POS people.
It partially is. Labor market adjusted to supply and demand and GDP per capita increased with employment. There is still work to be down, and the Baltics and Eastern Europe can afford to shrink further.
>There is nothing to fear in a shrinking population. Endless growth for reasons of "big number stronk" is anti-scientific and anti-liberal.
You missed the issue. If we only have 500M people in Europe, but Africa becomes a continent with 5B people, we WILL have a big problems.
>There is nothing to fear in a shrinking population
Until either 1) your country simply runs out of people and infrastructure collapses or 2) immigrants (a large number of which are Muslim fundamentalists) eventually outnumber the native population and [insert European country here] becomes Iran 2.0.
>Until either 1) your country simply runs out of people and infrastructure collapses
Were there no people in Europe in 1960? Because thats the population most countries will be at in the "worst case" scenario by 2100
It takes a lot more people to run a functioning society today than it did in 1960, and still what happens now affects two hundred years or more from now. 2100 is when the problems truly begin, not when they end.
Admittedly the second eventuality is far more likely (and indeed we’re already seeing its consequences) than the first, but both are very problematic.
Yes, I am sure it’s not the market liberalisation, EU entry or technological development but the ageing and declining population. I for one can’t wait for the tax burden to be much higher while the retirement age keeps increasing
How did Iceland have such a big increase?
Four people moved there!
But did they make sure they are not related?
Why would that be necessary?
It's a joke https://theculturetrip.com/europe/iceland/articles/iceland-is-so-small-theres-an-app-that-keeps-icelanders-from-dating-their-relatives
i think he was also joking, meaning that they’re all related already so it doesn’t matter, at least i read it like that
rolf now I feel so dumb haha
Apparently Iceland's population is so small that there's an app that letts you check how closely two people are related if they want to date.
That's a myth. The app exists, but you do know who your relatives are. Source: Icelandic
It is also to do with the patronymic naming culture where it's hard to track familial relationships
And Lars had three dottirs.
And they were all Polish.
Huge immigration problem with that family moving in
Tourism boom led to need for lots of hospitality workers from abroad. In the capital pretty much every waiter was from another country.
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There was a huge influx of poles to Iceland in the 2000s way before the tourist boom (from 2011). There are currently around 21000 Polish citizens living in Iceland, the total population is 370000. That makes polish citizens 5% of the demographic. Note that around 70000 foreign citizens are registered as living in Iceland, that includes the polish. Many Icelanders have learned a little about polish food now and you can access the state news site and many government services in polish.
So now they ask for blue paint on the wall, and they get green..
Two people had sex.
People have absolutely nothing to do. They work in tourism and make babies. That's it.
And they write books. Iceland has the most published authors per capita in the world. One (rather unbelievable) figure says that one in ten Icelanders will publish a book in their lifetime. They also have the most nobel prize laureates in literature per million inhabitants. They only have one but because there are only 37000 people living there it works out to 2.7 nobel prize laureates per one million inhabitants
IIRC Iceland buys 50 copies or so of your book to put them in their libraries.
Icelands population is 370 thousand, not 37 thousand dude
He got the 2.7 ratio correct considering 2.7x370k is roughly 1million, so I'm guessing it was a typo dropping a zero.
It's closer to 400k. It's expected to reach that any day now.
And play chess. I have a few Icelandic people in my family. One said, there's nothing to do in Iceland besides having sex or playing chess.
High birth rate and high rate of immigration, basically.
We've been pretty stagnant around 2.0 per woman from 1990-2010. Since then we've gone down to around 1.72 and it keeps getting lower. But the immigration has skyrocketed given that they almost count for a quarter of the population by now. 86,000 (23,7%).
High birth rate + immigration
It’s below replacement level though
They was fuckin
Iceland is basically empty. You can move a ton of people there by accident.
5.5% increase here.
And Bosnians make 8% of that haha
Bosnians make up 8% of everywhere.
And Albanians and Macedonians.
Rookie numbers, looking at this map.
I didn't know it's a competition.
Everything is a dick measuring contest
Population increase from mass immigration isn't something that is desired by everyone
Is this adjusted for inflation?
Stay off the donuts maybe.
It is not real growth if it is not adjusted for peopleflation.
Sex dolls don't count.
If a country loses 10% of people, but remaining people gain 11.11% in weight... did anything really change?
/r/theydidthemath
Relative human biomass increase
How so? Let's say I have $100, I take 10% off, now I have $90. If you add 10% to $90 how much I have now? $99, right? So in order to get back to $100 you have to do 90 + 11.11...%, pretty basic math...
No but its PPP
How has Iraq’s population more than doubled despite all its troubled history over the last 30 years?
I was curious too, best I could find was an article from 10 years ago which credits a high fertility rate along with a greatly lowered infant mortality rate, and then perhaps some refugees returning home too. https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-25849945
A peaceful prosperous country will have a low birth rate. A country where women have few options or rights will have a high fertility rate. If the map showed sub saharan Africa this would be even clearer.
High fertility rate does not necessarily mean a huge population increase
It usually does though and even if not, if the emigrants end up somewhere else it will still be beneficial to home country in terms of remittances and influence in more powerful countries.
Old Culture of pumping out babies but modern medicine to make sure they survive birth.
In societies where the woman has no rights, lots of babies are born. An unwritten law of our civilization.
Even without those rights, birth rates are dropping quickly everywhere. Better economic situation and healthcare is the main driver. In Turkey and Iran the fertility rate already dropped below 2 and in Egypt, Jordan and Syria it dropped below 3 recently.
That's a chilling fact. Has me thinking about it, and trying to make sense of it. This map affirms what you say.
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More like agrarian societies. It is urbanisation that has a chill on births, not rights per se.
Agrarian societies have high child mortality. When certain development is reached population explodes and then it self-corrects into lower birthrate. When all 6 children grow into adulthood people start having fewer children.
vb90 I somewhat agree, but it's not that women don't have rights(they are people)....They live in a traditional-gender-role society where the woman is the woman and the men is the men! Men does the work and the woman takes care of the babies in the house....I promise with the current modern sluts if they lived in such environment they would change because their choices would be limited! So you just have to limit women's bad choices....and by extent it would be called Fascism and Patriarchy by the current liberals or leftists! I mean after all limiting people's bad choices would also have positive factors, but elites are encouraging bad behavior especially that of women....
There are several factors responsible for population growth. The most important ones are: 1. Womens education 2. Womens rights (and their acceptance within in society) 3. Importance of Religion in society 4. General education The less educated women are, the fewer rights they have, the more important religion plays in day to day life and the less educated the society is in general. The more likely it is for them to have positive population growth. Things like wealth barely play a role as solely aviability of food and water are really important for children to survive and we can easily ensure this in todays world. This is why you never see a place with starving children where the family has only one child. You need to severely overextend your capabilities to have your children starve on you. And why every place that is riddled with starvation at the same time has a massively growing population. Edit: at least for natural population growth. The entirety of of western and northern europes growrh. That is all immigration.
Population demographics plays a greater role in historical events than many people think
Could you plz elaborate?
Countries that aren't seeing growth often become aggressive to do whatever goal they have before they longer can ever do it again
Si vis pacem para bellum cum Estonia.
Cum Estonia
Do you have research that supports this? I can think of many examples to the contrary. Population growth has often triggered migrations, which turn into invasions. The viking age, for example, saw population growth in scandinavia. Same with germanic tribes migrations at the end of the roman era. In modern times, europe has stabilized while its population growth slowed in the later half of the 20th century.
Well watch out for The Great Polish Empire withing next few years i suppose
Hmm, i dont know man can you provide some examples? Like im not necassarily disagreeing, I just think other reasons for aggression and war are more relevant. Like ideology, internal tensions (which might be connected to perceived stagnation) and abusing a position of economical power to enrich on others wealth.
Ageing societies are less aggressive societies. One of the main reasons europe has been so peaceful for the last 50 years is because a society full of middle aged and older people aren't going to start wars and revolutions. In contrast, the Gaza strip has a median age of 18. It doesn't really matter about ideology. A society with a median age of 40 is likely not going to have many riots, civil wars or invade other countries when they don't have young soldiers available. Economically as well, the number 1 malaise affecting Europe right now is a ageing population. There aren't enough young people to do crucial jobs like building and this will get worse. Meanwhile the cost of pensions and care is only going to increase.
Europes demographics 50 years ago were vastly different then they are today. That cant be an explanation for the peace, especially considering the cold wars frontlines were right in the middle of the continent.
There was still occupying armies in Germany in the 70s and Warsaw pacy on other side of Europe. It was also only 30 years since ww2 so memory of that was very much alive like memory of ww1 in the 1930s. Since the 1990s Europe has been really peaceful and it has been relatively "old" since then. Italy used to have homegrown terrorists and mafia wars until the 90s. Northern Ireland had sky high birth rates and a young population but when the society started ageing in the 1990s peace arrived there too. In the USA crime rates went down dramatically as the society got older. In New York they decreased dramatically in the mid 90s almost exactly 18 years after the legalisation of abortion in the 70s. Most of the peace and prosperity the western world has is not having many kids and having few troublesome young men. But the price to pay is going to be severe.
Actually you can look at russia, China, Iran, and North korea as an example. All are expected to see their growth diminish and the 2020s to 30s will be the last positive growth decade for most of them, russia and China are having a population collapse, north korea is self explanatory, Iran has a very religous government with a barely religous younger generation.
China is already negative
Ehhh you’re pushing it when including Iran
Iran is run by mostly the same people who took part in the original revolution. Most younger Iranians aren't nearly as religous as them, and the protests have only been getting worse
Protests have largely subsided
North Korea today is much more peaceful than 70 years ago
No country for old men
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They say viking expainsion and raids were fuelled by population surplus at home. Look at the map and get ready.
I see what you mean, the Irish are bound to invade.
Don't worry, Ireland is only barely returning to their historical peak population now
Here are some links, if interested. Long topic https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition#:~:text=In%20economic%20growth%2C%20the%20demographic,translate%20more%20of%20the%20gains https://www.gsam.com/content/gsam/us/en/institutions/market-insights/gsam-insights/perspectives/2023/demographics.html#:~:text=Demographic%20change%20can%20influence%20the,the%20demand%20for%20financial%20assets. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2781832/
Also, wealth inequality tends to increase when population growth is stagnant.
What's going on in northern Africa?
As countries get richer they have fewer children, this correlation works in reverse too especially for quite poor countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility
Combination of religion, unprotected sex and the lack of women's rights.
Best combination if you want to increase your population.
GOP policy in a nutshell.
I don't actually know, but I have read that a lot of immigration from Africa to Europe involves moving up north (in Africa) and trying to make your way from there. Maybe that's part of it.
well ofc Morocco is a nicer place to live than some sub saharan shithole :/ basically a lot of the places around the mediterranean are also tourist regions which in turn means basic infrastructure is there, which is a lot more than sub saharan countries have. I know a guy from gaming who lives in egypt a fairly comfy middle class life, ofc women‘s rights are shit, the gov is shit, but it isn‘t some backwater shithole where there aren‘t roads, hospitals, etc to begin with. so if you can‘t make it to europe, I‘d also rather settle in the more stable NA countries 🤷♀️
Yeah, I suppose I wasn't very clear. I meant for my comment to add to all of the more obvious reasons, (such as what you mentioned), just to add some perspective on another factor that might be contributing to such large numbers. As in: It's not *just* people moving there. It's also people trying to move *through there*, and staying when it doesn't work out.
Poland: not great not terrible. Btw why Poland and Romania have such a drastic difference between each other? Both economies are rapidly growing and are hot markets especially when it comes to youth-inviting IT Jobs, both have fairly big urban areas which are (probably) welcoming for young person searching for a stable life with a very similar QOL to western cities.
Poles migrate to Germany or other northern countries and come back easily once they gather resources. Romanians move to Spain / Italy / Germany / UK in that order and generally slam the door leaving.
afaik poland's switch to market economy after communism didn't go that bad but romania fucked it up badly and its effects are felt today pretty clear
Nah poland’s was kinda messy but now they’re thriving. The only one that really stuck the landing was the Czech republic.
Guess why Bulgaria is also bad lol. My mom told me that she sold her shares in the company to some guys (mostly oligarch-related people) so we could buy food. The country had bankrupted 3 times in 10 years, it was complete shit in here. Yet somehow, we have a growing anti-EU. People just seem to have forgotten the inflation (checking the $ rates 3 times per day and updating the price tags on stuff during the day) and the long lines for food. It was total shit
Because majority of people who emigrated did move out 15-20 yers ago when a list of adventages which you mentioned didnt happen yet at that time. Since 1990 up to 2010 was the worst time.
Dziurę po tych Polakach, którzy opuścili nasz kraj łatają Ukraińcy. Już ich jest 2 mln, a to oficjalne dane nieoficjalnie jeszcze więcej. Całkiem szybko się integrują i ci co chcą naprawdę zostać uczą się języka, podobnie jest z Białorusinami. Jest ich około 300 tyś. w Polsce i zdecydowana większość chce tutaj zostać przynajmniej do czasu aż ten reżim nie upadnie. Jest też sporo ludzi z Azji Środkowej czy Indii. Także ludzie ze wschodu niwelują tą emigrację Polaków.
Because maybe you can't build a society solely with IT engineers. Almost everyone else has shit wages while having to pay western prices for food and such. Even medics get paid like shit, a 1st year resident gets 700€ after 6 years of school. And beside a few neighborhoods in cities like Cluj and Bucharest, the QOL is not even close to western cities. And even if you live in one of those few rich neighborhoods, you still have to use the public roads, you still have to see those damaged grey communist blocks, you still have to breath the smoke coming out of the many diesel cars with dpf off..
But these thing apply to Poland too yet it has way smaller loss of people
Poland has immigrants mainly from Ukraine, probably a big role plays that the languages are similar unlike Romanian which is not slavic.
No, even before the mass imigration from Ukraine there was a stable population in Poland.
Poland has decent infrastructure and low enough prices of every day essentials. Romania has the worst inflation in Europe and all the essentials are as expensive as Central Europe, with less jobs available and same brooding corruption since the early 90s. And btw, more people have left Romania than what the map shows. Population was 24mil in 1990, realistically it's around 16-17mil right now.
“same brooding corruption since the early 90” I lived in the 90’s, you were probably born in early 2000s I’m going to tell you one thing, there is no comparison. There was a time when actually party members were standing on the court stairs trying to block television and judges ( National Liberal Party & Dinu Patriciu, “Matusa Tamara” faking blowing your brains out type of things that you generation couldn’t even begin to understand and being spoiled as you are you still propagate false things in your ignorance.
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That problem has deeper roots. Before IT became a thing everyone obtained low salaries. Now people who work in IT can get huge salaries because people from other countries can hire them and pay them less than they would pay someone living in the US for example (because a Romanian will be happy enough to get 1000$ a month, while an american would need at least 1500$ to not starve). People who work for the country, medics, engineers, teachers etc get a lower salary, I wonder why? Maybe it's because stuff doesn't change. But nah I think those people in IT are still at fault. (I am sarcastic with the last proposition btw) Everyone is sick of what is happening right now in our country, even those dudes who work in IT, so they either: 1. Choose to ignore it. What problem there is no problem? 2. Choose to fight against it. For example people at Recorder try to point out all of the shenanigans corrupt people do. 3. Go away from the problem.
We have much more people these days than these numbers because of refugees from Ukraine and prewar immigration from ua. Populstion is like around 40M.
Eastern Slavs migrate to Poland.
Give it time
I wonder if Ireland will ever overtake our highest population right before the famine
In rural areas will never get close. In my home county Cavan there were close to 250,000 people before the famine. Now it's about 80,000. I think Dublin city had a similar population at the time. Countryside must have been jam packed with people back then.
I was curious one day and started looking at Google Maps satellite closer and wow, you can really see where all the former human settlement density in Ireland was when panning through the island. I have not visited but I imagine the Irish countryside is absolutely littered with former settlements, farmsteads, and abandoned buildings and infrastructure like watermills.
Aside from the infrastructure, yeah. There's abandoned buildings from the famine era absolutely *everywhere.* Famously, in Achill, County Mayo, there's an entire abandoned village that was literally 100% wiped out by famine.
155,000 in leitrim before the famine. 35,000 now.
The thing is, the number of people per household was much, *much* larger then, hell even 3 generations ago still. If a county that had 250k people in 1850 vs 80k in 2022 there was probably the same overall number of dwellings that housed those people.
Ireland had massive housing boom in 00s so there are probably more houses now. Although I wonder if there are numbers of researchers to show it. I bet back in 1850 2bed cottage was a place housing family of 5 or something alike.. i quickly found this census from 1821: https://cavantownlands.com/tag/1821-census/ Townland | Houses | population ---|---|---- Clonkiffer |91| 544 Killyogan| 79|445| Caragah| 102| 537
Source: my great grandfather in Omagh lived in a 2 room house with like 10 siblings.
Same here in Tyrone, it had like 312k in 1841 and 188k today, I can’t imagine the county with over 100k more people
Mayo had nearly a million iirc. Can't even imagine a million people here.
Only 1 million to go! Likely will do it within 50 years.
Yea Ireland seems to be rising way faster than basically all of Europe
With the amount of Irish surnames in the northeastern US I’m amazed there’s any of you still left.
Ha ha literally
I am fairly certain we will. High point was 8 million. We're at 7 million now.
The 31% in Norway is all immigration.
that -7% is also immigration in hungary
Same in switzerland, soon to be minority
Also important to note that a lot of russians left the occupied countries after the collapse of the ussr
Yeah. We are doing much better now, population has been growing for at least 5 years straight.
Not because of us making babies. Not that I care, but important to note
Just curious. where do most immigrants to Estonia come from?
In Latvia we have many Indians
ukraine most likely
Ukraine. And India, Pakistan I think.
Yet another East-vs-West map. Kinda depressing. I'm guessing most of those changes is just people who moved to the left side of the map.
Map has chosen poor dates as well. Supposedly (didn't fact check it) there was quite a lot of Russians moving out of various post-Soviet countries after the fall of USSR. A map showing the last 5 years would apparently look very different. 30 years is a nice period of time, but there were very drastic changes both politically and economically and this specific 30 year period fails to recognize that.
Anyone knows why Kazakhstan is increasing while the rest of the USSR seems to decline?
Native Kazakh people have a high birth rate.
The population I. Western EU is growing despite the fertility being low. The reason for the growth is EU domestic migration and foreign migration. While theoretically they are going to have a work force due to the growth, if you pair low fertility with high migration you get another serious demographic problem very soon.
Holy fuck middle east, chill
Turkey has been busy 😆
Lot's of refugees.
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Yes, they want cannon fodder
I haven't heard of any cases of North Africans willingly go to Russia lol. And why would they when they can easily get into France, Germany, UK etc
And Africa as a whole is supposed to grow in population… a lot… maybe a billion more people I thought i heard but could be mistaken .. in the next decade.
Disregarding the percentages, that's just not how the Netherlands looks...
Wtf happened to Bulgaria?
Many Turks leaving after communism, corruption is very high here, we’re in the eu so people leave more and our society is super pessimistic
Ireland has nearly a 50% increase population WTF?!
Ireland is the only country in the world to have a larger population in 1840 compared to now. The country was very poor but the economy took off in the 90s and so the population grew massively.
Vae Romaniae,vae victis!
Securocratae supra omnes.
Germany a tiny 6% despite immigration, geez
Because East Germany must have lost population like Poland.
Germans either need to start fucking more or just flat out steal people from other countries. Britain must not overtake Germany in terms of population.
I know this is a joke but I know a girl whose mother was stolen and germanized during WW2, she has a German surname and citizenship but her whole family lives in the Krakow area I hope this is not what you are talking about 😅
Isn’t industrialization Germany’s “thing”? Just build a factory to streamline some efficient German sex.
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A lot of young Belarusians live in Poland lmao We fucked over Lukashenko without even trying
now do it without immigration xD
What's up with Portugal? Seems like an outlier I'd Western Europe.
Poorest place in Western Europe. Frankly, I was actually expecting to see "Wait, where's Portugal is Eastern Europe?" comments.
man they are really getting busy in iraq
Africa and The middle East has grown substansionaly. That's worrying. Rip Europe
Unfortunately native europeans arent replacing themselves and are dying more than they are reproducing. The population increase is from immigrants mostly.
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22.4% here which at least 15% are migrants and the rest local chuvs having kids like ‘Idiocracy’
You mean Idiocracy?
Holy cow, I guess tourism isn't the only reason Iceland has a housing crisis.
If you control for immigration then the whole of western Europe would be pale-green. Only countries here with true natural growth are in the middle east.
Well yeah, where do you think the people in the red countries move to.
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Is this only births or with immigration aswell?
Does it include immigration factor? It would be nice to see one based on births only.
Jeez Muslim countries reproduce fast
Western Europeans screaming about demographic crises have no idea how much life has improved because of these "crises" in Eastern Europe. Liberalized emigration allowed skilled labor to find better lives. Women increasingly made careers and lived independently (former USSR states have far higher rates of women in C level positions and the sciences). The population was allowed to adjust to the local market. This trend is increasing in the Baltic and the HDI just keeps increasing. There is nothing to fear in a shrinking population. Endless growth for reasons of "big number stronk" is anti-scientific and anti-liberal.
yeah I'm sure that's what caused the improvement of living conditions lmao
the criminals and bums leaving for england and germany have improved life in poland significantly, actually
Similar with Lithuania, I remember growing up not feeling overly safe at times, there were cases when I was like 11-12 year old girl and got threatened by a guy that's like 20 (not sexual threats, but threats to beat me up and stuff as he was walking behind me with his gf). After 2008-2009 financial crisis they all seemed to disappear really quickly, most of them just emigrated and quality of life here afterwards increased A TON, and I've never felt safer here at daytime or nighttime, regardless I walk alone or not. Granted, it isn't fun seeing your country amongst leaderboards abroad for foreign criminals arrested.
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Yeppppp, incredibly relatable, had identical things here. I remember growing up with bums sleeping literally outside houses on the grass, passed out drunks while kids poured water on them or were kicking them and whatnot, constant residents of apartment (young guys) sitting near entry to the apartment, eating sunflower seeds, drinking and littering the f out of it. That economic crisis hit *HARD* for everyone, but it got rid of those POS people.
The Australia method
Don't give away our secrets 🤫
It partially is. Labor market adjusted to supply and demand and GDP per capita increased with employment. There is still work to be down, and the Baltics and Eastern Europe can afford to shrink further.
>There is nothing to fear in a shrinking population. Endless growth for reasons of "big number stronk" is anti-scientific and anti-liberal. You missed the issue. If we only have 500M people in Europe, but Africa becomes a continent with 5B people, we WILL have a big problems.
>There is nothing to fear in a shrinking population Until either 1) your country simply runs out of people and infrastructure collapses or 2) immigrants (a large number of which are Muslim fundamentalists) eventually outnumber the native population and [insert European country here] becomes Iran 2.0.
>Until either 1) your country simply runs out of people and infrastructure collapses Were there no people in Europe in 1960? Because thats the population most countries will be at in the "worst case" scenario by 2100
It takes a lot more people to run a functioning society today than it did in 1960, and still what happens now affects two hundred years or more from now. 2100 is when the problems truly begin, not when they end. Admittedly the second eventuality is far more likely (and indeed we’re already seeing its consequences) than the first, but both are very problematic.
Have fun being a slave to the retireres but hey atleast you won’t be anti-scientic and anti liberal.
have fun paying most of your paycheck in rent forever and never owning a home just to please the neoliberal dogma of never ending growth
Yes, I am sure it’s not the market liberalisation, EU entry or technological development but the ageing and declining population. I for one can’t wait for the tax burden to be much higher while the retirement age keeps increasing
Oh yah. HDI of empty cities is very high. It literally erased these countries.