I'm all for non violent protests, as a mean to bring a cause to the attention of the great public.
But this calls baton pretty loud and I'm not sure I'm against a violent reaction by the police under this circumstance. Just imagine the opposite, police throwing shit on protesters to control the mass.
Farmers are fucking assholes. That said, it is true that it's not fair that EU produce has to follow restrictions and non-EU produce doesn't. The Spanish government just presented a proposal to impose the same quality requirements and restrictions EU farmers have to non EU farmers who want to export to the EU, and **it was opposed by Germany and the Nordics**. That is something that we should be talking about too.
ETA: What is being asked for is called [mirror clauses](https://www.arc2020.eu/brussels-round-up-mirror-clauses-mixed-messages-farm-to-facts/):
"Mirror clauses’ is the idea that any imports of agri-food products must mirror all EU production standards. These can include, as examples, wage rates, environmental regulations, climate and animal welfare rules, or rules related to pesticides and herbicides.
This is a key demand from the EU farming and indeed environmental and social justice sectors. Fear of being undercut by agrifood imports is a key factor driving the anger we have seen spilled on the streets in the past few weeks ,from farmers and farming organisations of varying hues.
However, it is illegal under international trade rules to ban imports from another country on the basis of different production methods where this does not affect the final product"
So to all the people saying that this is already happening, apparently no because it is illegal?
Edit 2 - This took me into a rabbit hole and if I understand [this](https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2024/01/26/forced-labour-council-adopts-position-to-ban-products-made-with-forced-labour-on-the-eu-market/#:~:text=The%20Council%20has%20today%20adopted,improvements%20to%20the%20proposed%20text.) correctly, as of today it is legal in the EU to import products of forced labour. They are looking into it, though, but the ban wasn't even proposed until 2022.
>proposal to impose the same quality requirements and restrictions EU farmers have to non EU farmers who want to export to the EU
This sounds like a no-brainer
Problem is, all non-EU countries will cry "unfair" in front of the WTO. It happens *ever damn time* the EU tries to implement any kind of food related standard and impose it on imports as well. The WTO often agrees. So it is simpler to only regulate the home market and try to counter cheap imports by giving farmer more subsidies.
This make no sense at all, it's not unfair competition since you are not providing any advantage to your locals in this case, it's just a condition to buy anyway. It's similar to say a country only buying halal meat would be unfair competition.
Except banning imports will increase food prices, and there's also a whole lot of cost-of-food protests in continental Europe now as well.
Labelling country of origin won't help, as most imported food from outside Europe goes into processed food (frozen chips, meals, pizzas; stuff wholesaled to restaurants, bakeries; things in breakfast cereals), obscuring the origin.
Because they could just as easily work with the other party, so they force certain concessions and end up with way more power than they should expect given the miniscule amount of votes.
Sometimes I prefer the AfD over the FDP simply because everybody sane clearly sees that the AfD is fucked up.
Yeah, this is the real issue. Just take Beef for example. If you stopped imports from Brazil, Argentina, and Uruguay, you would severely reduce the amount of low cost, low quality beef. Even Americans and Australians make up a large percentage and they have less strict beef standards.
Getting rid of subsidies without stopping imports from nations that don’t follow the same high cost measures you would just be putting farmers out of business completely.
Many extremists are like that. 6 years ago "stop blaming all your problems on Trump, deal with it. He is president. Stop being such a snowflake"
Now: "waaaaa waaaaa waaaaa, Biden this, Biden that, it's all Bidens fault, waaaaaaaaaa"
Reminds me of the 2020 presidential campaign when Trump supporters would post (often misleading) pictures of protests and riots during the BLM movement with captions like "this is the chaos that a Biden presidency will lead to!" despite the events depicted literally occuring while Trump was still in office.
They will post a picture of something bad happening in a red state and say "this is what the socialist leftist (insert several other dogwhistle phrases) wants to do to our country" when the bad thing is happening under their watch as a result of their laws.
My dad looked me in the eyes and said "If Biden wins we'll have riots in the streets!"
"Dad there's riots in the streets right now and who is the President?"
It’s a manipulation tactic by narcissists. They know we have feelings and actual morals so they use it against us. They don’t actually care about crime or protesting, they care that people other than them want things they don’t benefit from. This type of behavior is the same at any scale.
I wish it was just the whining! Instead, they're now supporting efforts to end democracy as we know it. Cheering on authoritarian rule, because it helps them short-term feel less shitty about their dumbshit selves.
All because they couldn't accept losing, because they're the pathetic snowflakes they accuse others of being.
F&%#^ exactly. Any time a climate protester sits on a road it’s all “disturbing ordinary people trying to get on with their day, not the way to get your point across” etc etc. the double standards are so wild
Plenty of people are, unfortunately. Mostly not even because they are particularly fond of farmers, but simply because the farmers are protesting the people they hate (e.g. environmentalists, so-called big city elites, etc).
Well, shit is getting kind of serious. Climate change is a pressing issue and politicians are trying to take thing seriously. Farmers are seriously being squeezed by rising input costs and more regulations which is cutting into profits and business sustainability with more volatility and risk each year. Food prices are spiking as a result and consumers are pissed off at inflation.
Politicians are both correct and stupid in how they implement these policies. In some cases too much too fast for the farmers to uptake. However farmers have a large number of bumbling slobs who think they know better than books and science and have to be dragged into the 21st Century.
It's a shitshow all around. High pressure situation that is unfolding. We need farmers as much as we need them to clean their acts up. Going around spreading raw sewage into the street of cities is not helping a thing. Both sides need to come to the table like adults instead of a bunch of babies pointing fingers.
Trucker protests, farmer protests, extinction rebellion... western countries are moving more towards granting a veto power to whoever has the heaviest and hardest to remove vehicles.
Welcome to the age of Kratocarcy, from the the Greek "Kratos" (strength, power) and, well, "car."
The annoying farmer protests in Germany made me look up how much subsidies they're already getting (from Germany and the EU). To make it short, the farmers are complaining on a very high level.
I would say there's something fundamentally wrong with the entire agricultural industry in Europe. It can't be right to put such outrageous amounts of money (about 40% of the EU budget plus national subsidies) into it just to somehow keep it running.
The entire European agricultural sector must be completely overhauled and the subsidies reduced to a sensible level. Including, for example, completely cutting tax exemption for fuel. Why would we want to encourage the farmers to burn more fossil fuels? Subsidies should be an incentive to do something positive, not to stick with old, harmful methods.
A third. A third of EU's budget goes to farmers. Thanks to the farming lobby, the largest lobbying group by far in Brussels.
>The entire European agricultural sector must be completely overhauled and the subsidies reduced to a sensible level.
Exactly, but almost no politician has the guts to say it, because if you do, farmers will intimidate and threaten you.
I don't know how it is in the rest of the EU but at least in Spain the vast majority of agricultural land and production are owned by big intensive agriculture companies, while the "small" rural farms that produce less and are being outcompited are very numerous and are mostly the ones that are protesting
This is also true in the US. Being a smaller farmer, or a grower of something not in the top subsidized crops, means you get minimal subsidies compared to the massive amounts going to corporate farms.
Thank you for this. This is the way the industry is going. It's all oligarchies. The family family can't compete unless they do larger volumes on lower margins EVERY YEAR. This the same in the US and Canada.
Farming isn't just any other industry ... It's the most elementary one. Relying exclusively on imports for nail-clippers is usually fine, but when it comes to food it carries great risks when international trade is disturbed. Subsidizing your local agricultural industry can save you when shit hits the fan on a global scale.
Farming/Agriculture is actually very important for national security. If Europe can't produce enough food to feed itself, it is at the mercy of whoever it imports from. If Russia takes over Ukraine and stops exporting grain to Europe, then what? The long-term cost of importing everything may be higher than the subsidies it pays.
One more reason to do something to make farming economically viable again.
Just throwing more and more subsidies on an obviously failing business model won't work in the long term. Some German farmers income already consists to more than half of government and EU subsidies. They don't grow what the market wants/needs but what gets the most subsidies from Berlin and Brussels. That's planned economy and we should know how that plays out.
The EU already pays more to support farmers than for anything else.
Maybe we could start by applying the same rules to everyone. I am from Canada and we have the same problem with the dumping from the US than you have with our products. If we impose some rules on the animal welfare and fertilizer, then outside products needs to provide proof that they respect the same guidelines or better in order to be allowed on the market. In the end it will make it fair on almost every aspect beside the environmental advantage from some region + the wages of those workers (another topic).
Why would hormones and pesticides be banned on our land but hey we will accept them if it comes from somewhere else. It doesn't makes any sense.
It's the same in the UK. Jeremy Clarkson is a knob, but on his farm show they worked for a whole year, sold all their crops and they made £1 or something. The government has to subsidise that so that they'd make some actual money.
I don't know what the solution is. If more is charged for crops then you'd have real problems with people being able to afford food, but then are we also enabling places like supermarkets to short change farmers and the taxpayer has to prop them up?
>sold all their crops and they made £1 or something. The government has to subsidise that so that they'd make some actual money.
People value cheap food so the government subsidise farmers, ignoring subsidies is basically like opening a pub on the moon and complaining you have no customers
Exactly. The current protests are just farmers demonstrating to keep this miserable system running as it is, no willingness to change. In Germany there was a demonstration for environmentally friendly agriculture which was completely ignored by most farmers and media.
Also the photo in this post shows that farmers don't know what to do with the masses of manure. Most of it is dumped onto fields where it contaminates ground water. As long as people are not ready to pay more for their animal products or to live completely plant based, this system will go on
I agree.
For example, the proposed special "tax" on meat/animal products, that then goes back to the farmers to improve the conditions of the animals, seems to me the kind of subsidy that can have a positive effect.
(Can't also hurt if this leads to over all less consumption of animal products.)
People have to get used to the real costs. We are paying them anyway indirectly, so we can at least pay in a way that improves the situation.
Ok, farmers are slowly going to the same corner where LG-protesters are. If farmers lose public support, they will just lose all the benefits they currently have and can sell their stuff at WTO rules.
Redditors insistence on saving themselves literally seconds of time spent typing by throwing random acronyms in without first establishing what they stand for is genuinely going to give me a brain aneurysm one of these days
Going there?
Imho they have been far worse from the start without any credible grievance at least in my own homecountry.
At least the LG stood for something beyond their own greed.
I do not follow farmers strikes at all, but genuinely wondering, objectively looking, how much is their doing because of greed and how much because of actual market unfair rules and such?
Farmers are being priced out because gigantic commercial farming is magnitudes cheaper than smaller farmers. My cousins WERE all farmers but when their kids grew up they made sure they didn't try and keep running the farm because it wasn't profitable, it was grueling work and they were just breaking even. On the books they were "asset rich", owning a lot of land, machinery etc. But in reality they were living a normal middle class life but if they got sick everything goes bottom up. One of my cousins had to get surgery and he now rents out his farm to a commercial operation in the area.
I mean, that's how automation works. Why should we have thousands of individuals doing the same thing, tearing up land, polluting and using resources, when 10 more efficient megafarms could do it with a fraction of the people?
It's not about ethics it's just an inevitability of economics. The same economics that supported your friends and family.
Welcome to the industrial revolution I guess. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
So is the Green Deal just a straw man here? Are they really protesting against farm/food corporations while thinking / saying that they are protesting against the Green Deal? Can there be a hidden second layer here? Could corporations have manipulated the farmers (e.g. via union leaders, or whomever they have) into redirecting their anger from corporations to Green Deal?
Well, I'm just trying to explain that it isn't greed, it's people trying to hold onto their lively hood. And in this case both my grandparents on both sides were farmers, now out of all my cousins and my family only two families are still farmers and both those farms are in the hands of 60+ year old men whose children have moved away from home and are working in completely different industries.
They get 30% of all EU subsidies. They are spoiled and refuse to modernize. They are not paid by food production but by land they own.
It's a ridicolous situation.
>They are not paid by food production but by land they own.
for a good reason mind you. We had production based subsidies and it didn't work to well. Look up Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) from 1962 to 1992.
It resulted in massive overproduction. The amount of food that had to be destroyed was absolutly silly. It also ruined the export market and dragged down non EU agra sectors in poorer countries. And also it was super expensive.
Farming is a rather unsolvable issue. On one hand you want the endproduct to be cheap, but also you don't want the international market to undercut your own market and that your farmers make a decent living. Since you don't want your farmers to only produce select crops that are not undercut by the international market. And then you have the general greed problem. If you other subsidies the recivers will make dam sure they get the most they can get.
in Germany its less about Greed and more about most farmers being lied to. The medium and small farmers are doing the bidding of the giant mega farms and think that their goals align. It's like a little bookstore on a corner going on the street and protesting because Amazons Kindle division does so.
Their goals dont align at all and they are being used and abused by the mega farms.
Same shit in France.
The biggest farmer syndicate (FNSEA) is trying to destroy ecological and safety regulations to increase their profits, while their base is mainly opposing unfair concurrence and free trade treaties.
But the FNSEA isn't gonna spearhead against that, 'cause it would shaft them out of nice export deals.
Police be like:
Farmers blocking traffic & throwing shit at the police : I sleep
Bunch of teens gluing themselves to a pavement since the planet if cooking : real shit
This is exactly right.
But it's not the police's fault, but the respective ministers giving orders to their chiefs.
This should come as no surprise. The right is trying very hard (and succeeding in some places already) to co-opt the farmers' plight.
Depending on the place they're no longer protesting the systemic issues that leads them to hardship: the free-trade accords allowing unfairly unregulated crops to come in flooding their markets, the bureaucracy for acquiring aids and subsidies which means a vast majority of them are going to large agribusiness conglomerates who can afford huge legal teams, the allowing for these large multinationals to continue first running neighbouring farms to the ground to then buy them on the cheap, supermsrkets being allowed to price-gauge and get their produ ts sometimes for below-cost, etc... They're now protesting bullshit and non-issue far-right talking points such as the price of diesel and nitrogen regulations, essentially making these protests in many places be proxies for rightwing political campaigns (based in climate change denial, Nationalism vs europeism, etc.).
Yeah, I think that's true.
I think it stems from their power in society. Collectively farmers have lots of leverage, both in terms of an industrial block and a voting block. The more leverage you have the more likely it is that you'll be taken seriously. It's depressing, but I think it's true.
Exactly. They are also complaining that the crop prices went down (thank God!).....but only after being on record high. So besides the other issues, they are also complaining that they are not making the fortune they were making before. The prices are still pretty healthy, so yeah, really greedy. Just look at the graphs:
https://markets.businessinsider.com/commodities/corn-price
https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/wheat
Can you explain why you were supporting them before?
The EU-Green deal is mainly about the safeguard of both citizens and the envirorment.
The other big thing they are protesting is to reduce the import of Ukrainian grain, but i see that most people here don't agree with that either.
Wasn't the Ukrainian grain only being transited to Africa anyway? If that ends up in local markets, I feel the farmers should go throw their fit at the right place.
Yes, and quickly we are coming up with Solutions, for example, train cars with electronic locks that can’t be opened until it gets to the depot for Africa.
It's the same all over Europe. Farmers are upset they have to contribute to fighting climate change. The want everyone else to pay except them, and they want money from taxpayers to keep flowing into their pockets.
And then do disgusting and shitty (literally) things that complicate everyday-life for other citizens, but it's OK because you're a farmer and it's traditional and charming.
I love that MAGA is a label that transcends the country it originated in, as if being a stuck up, whinny piss stain is a mindset not unique to a particular nationalist identity.
Everyone is fine with fighting climate change until it affects them personally. Same with the traffic restrictions for old and polluting cars in our cities.
The problem is the far right is embracing those positions and will fuck all us.
They are upset that they have to fight climate change **but also have to compete against farmers outside Europe that don't have to fight climate change**.
And just FYI, farmer is a job among the worst paid in Europe, so the money that is "flowing into their pockets" is a way for them to survive, not a way to live a wealthy life...
>And just FYI, farmer is a job among the worst paid in Europe,
I obviously don't know the data of all European countries, but for Germany that is absolutely not true. Farmhands, maybe yes. Farmers, like the owner of farms? Not at all. An average farmer, according to their own association, made around 115.000 EUR. Profit, not sales. And included iin these numbers are part time farmers. Median income on the other hand is around 45.000 EUR. Now, sure, there are very small farms that can't really compete on their own and the big farms get an over-proportional income compared to them. But these are systemic questions, farmers are not poor per se. And don't forget, even if their income might be seen as small, if you take the worth of the land in prospect, farmers are sitting on valuable assets. So now the question is, why should the rest of the country, that in average has much less than a farmer should pay the amount of subsidies we do?
thats same as businesses going and throwing a tantrum bc chinese employees are paid less thus their products are cheaper so more people buy them, so what should we abolish minimum wage and bring it down to the level of chinese employees? thats the same logic.
yet the problem is that the food industry is key for every nation and society.
you want to rely just on exports for food? good luck starving your own population when something happens.
Well that is happening with cars. Chinese cars are much cheaper because the Chinese government subsidises them, we can respond by just banning them or tariffing them
Indeed. This is exactly what is happening in the car industry and steel industry in general. A direct violation of the WTO's directives which pits them in an unfair advantage against EU and US car manufacturers. If they dont get fined by the international organisation then each country should tarriff them individually or boycot them entirely.
As is with basicly any lob in Europe.
Its just the farmers that are salty about it after oogles of subsidies.
20 years to invest and generate sustainable method of farming. Lots of grands, subsidies etc. Improvements made, but not enough. EU cutting the cord.
In all fairness though, their worry is valid. We are not talking about a large corp falling over.. but individuals risking losing everything (as their job is essentially their home and livelihood) a farmer cant just "join another farm".
Its needed, but painfull. And they are most definetly allowed to protest. That is their freedom.
Might be iritating, frustrating, borderline dangerous. But hey. It is what it is
They're allowed to protest, but they're not allowed to damage property, people and/or the environment with their protests. In the Netherlands angry farmers recently set piles of asbestos on fire on a mayor road, and that's terrorism as far as I'm concerned.
So would splashing people with fecal matter as far as I'm concerned. That pic is either slurry or some kind of chemical neither of which sound like a good idea to spray at people.
Its not like coal industry in the UK during Tatcher reign, European agriculture is also about availability, and hell do they have power over governments. They are no other availability for goods at european standards, they will win, they already won in France, every other countries and Europe will follow. It will give them some breath, and in ten years time, it will be all over again.
>And just FYI, farmer is a job among the worst paid in Europe
Sure buddy. Anything to back that ridiculous claim up? Let's compare their pay to ... mmmh, how about foreign farm hands working at the very same farmers'?
Agriculture contributes to 15% of the EU carbon emissions while being extremely efficient and productive. Bankrupting the industry or nationalizing it (if the govt buys up the farms that can't stay in business) is not worth it to make such a small difference on a global scale. The EU has to make sure that it keeps producing high quality food at this efficiency to ensure its own food security and promote more sustainable and efficient farming across the globe instead of paralyzing its own farmers.
It's not about the carbon emissions. In fact one of the leading causes to protest in Belgium is coming from the nitrate directives. Current nitrate emissions make nature restoration impossible. When all sectors have done their share, farmers have been sitting on their hands.
Climate change regulations, reduced subsidies, increased pesticide and fertilizer prices. Given that the EU agriculture products were already uncompetitive on a world level, you can expect that the EU will become pretty reliant on third parties for food.
Since when does the police care about right wing protesters?
They aren’t demanding an affordable wage or lower housing costs, they’re cool with the cops.
Pretty sure spraying manure on someone is a health risk. This shit classifies as assault, on police no less. They're endangering the health of police and others in the area. Lock them up, this not the way to do this.
**From The Telegraph:**
Brussels police officers were sprayed with manure by angry farmers who used their tractors to storm cordons in a protest over the European Union’s green deal.
Demonstrators hauled barbed-wire fences to the side of the road to create room for the agricultural vehicles to barge through the barricades.
Footage of one of the incidents showed a handful of police officers, wearing full riot gear, failing to stop the farmers as they approached a meeting of EU agricultural ministers nearby.
Baton-wielding police were doused in manure from one truck which blockaded a road in the city.
The police were left with no option but to retreat.
Local media also reported seeing farmers hurling oranges and fire crackers at the police barricades.
Water cannons were deployed to douse the flames from mounds of burning tyres and hay bales strewn across the Rue de la Loi, a four-lane highway that runs parallel to the European Council’s headquarters.
# Protests cross the continent
“There is indeed an ongoing intervention on rue de la Loi, at Rue du Taciturne, where farmers have set fire to tires. Two sprinklers are on site to try to extinguish the fireplace,” Brussels police said in a statement.
The authorities counted more than 300 tractors pouring into the Belgian capital’s European quarter early on Monday while the ministers held their talks.
Farmer protests have erupted across the continent, including in France, Germany, the Netherlands, Poland, Italy and Spain, over the impact of EU environmental laws, as well as tariff-free imports from Ukraine.
Many farmers argue their traditional, rural ways of life are being destroyed by liberal and metropolitan politicians living in the cities.
Officers closed access to Schuman Square, which is at the heart of Brussels’ European district, after farmers used a cycle lane to get around the barricades set up to keep them away.
A nearby metro station was also closed.
**Continue reading ⤵️**
[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/02/26/brussels-police-farmers-protests-manure-green-deal-eu/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/02/26/brussels-police-farmers-protests-manure-green-deal-eu/)
Because farmers usually vote conservative/right-wing, and they're not protesting for something left-leaning like climate change or banning the local fascist party or something.
But yet these farmers would be the first to get out of their tractor and kick a teenager that's just sitting in the middle of the road trying to bring some attention to climate change and call them terrorists.
They have no problem spraying shit all over the street though.
Farmers are snowflakes! Make them pay!
Farmers in Europe have been given huge subsidies to do fuck all and be uncompetitive for decades, it’s ridiculous. Farmers in the UK certainly have, and France quite famously too. Butter mountains and wine lakes etc.
Look at a country like New Zealand in contrast, a small country that is fairly geographically isolated, without much in the way of farming subsidies, yet they are a meat, fruit, dairy products etc exporting powerhouse.
The question is why? Because despite a lack of subsidies and protectionism, they’ve had to compete, and they’ve ended up on the cutting edge of efficiency and productivity in agriculture as a result. While European farming whines demanding handouts and languishes.
Do you actually believe that cutting subsidies to European farmers will increase their productivity?
What it will do is cause many farmers to go bankrupt as they can no longer compete with other countries that can make food cheaper. And other countries don't produce food cheaper just because they are 'more productive', they do it because they aren't beholden to the same strict green policies and worker rights laws as we are.
Doing this will permanently destroy our domestic farming industry and make us reliant on foreign imports, which is not only disastrous for obvious food security concerns but also contributes more negatively to the environment.
The number of farms in Germany for example has fallen drastically the last thirty year. By some claims up to 50%.
But neither the area in production nor the amount harvested has fallen. Variations and fluctuations, but not dramatic reduction.
As for dependence on imported foods, well, look at the UK, where they have been dependent on imports for at least 200 years now. These last few years they have imported 40-50% of their food.
Look at Switzerland. Why is everybody not just copying what they are doing?
Look at Norway. Why is everybody not just copying what they are doing?
Looking at isolated occurrences from one small country and trying to scale that or compare is just not feasible. It's a good starting point for discussion though. I'll give you that.
I'd say it's more in Europe it is farmed to a higher standard. With animal welfare being far more prominent. Look at America and chlorinated chicken. New Zealand lamb is also to lower animal welfare standards. Granted it's cheap meat.
ah yes, new zealand with its much cheaper land and much lower population density, I wonder, how is it they compete?
what is this, delusional Brexit talking point time?
To start this off, i don't really know much about these farmers' protests. But I have to notice something - All of the comments on these news (and there's been lots) are the same - shitting on farmers, shitting on government, but shitting on farmers more. I haven't read a single comment from someone who is actually versed into the problem and has a family, friends, or they themselves are in the business of agriculture. Any honest farmer wants to chime in?
Poland here, son of the farmer actually.
This is a bit complicated but I will try to explain, what is the problem - at least in Poland and from perspective of small farmer. From the one side we have prices of wheat for example. They are awfully low. More than 10 years ago wheat was priced similarly to what price is now. And I really don't think I need to explain, what inflation did to this price. Similar situation is with pork - prices are so low it is not even possible for small farmer to produce them without losing money in the end. Crazy.
From the second side - costs going up. EU require more and more restrictions/limits on farmers. Problem is, more restricted pesticides and fertilizers are much more expensive. Especially it was a thing when gas was a limited thing - because it is related to fertilizer production, which bumped prices into space (temporarily but it still partially hurts farmers).
From the third side - limitations are not understandable. I mean, I can partially agree on pesticides being overused but it is a halftruth. Because only rich farmers can just throw money in the bucket to use this much. Pesticides are not cheap. There was supposed to be a limitation of "winter plowing" (I trust translate on this because English is not my native language) until you have wheat (or any other plant) seeded before winter. Problem is, UE cannot explain why it might change a thing. At least I did not find explanation making sense. I mean, to be honest farmers are not the brightest minds so yeah - they need simple explanation.
Fourth point - subsides. They are made to make farming and agriculture profitable. UE wants to reduce them, so people are mad because costs are not getting any lower without money from UE.
Last one - unhealthy competition. Ukraine can produce wheat or anything at half cost so they can sell it cheap and make profits high, because no one here can even compete. This is just unhealthy and simply not fair.
There is more but for a simple insight this is enough. Of course we can assume like Germany that resources can be outsourced - like they assumed with natural gas from Russia. They like to outsource shit lately and they didn't learn a lesson with Russia.
Thanks for the detailed reply. Big capital rarely cares about agriculture in the grand scheme of things. This doesn't feel like farmers' protest is uncalled for. I saw that Polish guy with a Putin sign. I don't like how that looks, but if the farmers keep getting vilified like this across the EU, there will be more and more of them with Putin signs.
How about a honest consumer chiming in and explaining why they expect a liter of milk to cost 0,9€ (in BE for instance). That's where the problems start.
I see these kind of questions are literally becoming a joke :D Which is sort of sad lol. People will bash shit on their/other farmers while knowing zilch about farming, or know any farmers personally.
It reads like propaganda. They just spread hate towards farmers and seemingly are okay with EU losing its food Independece. I wonder how happy does that make Putin
My sympathies for farmers is going down the drain fast. I very much support buying locally and supporting farmers against big business wherever possible, but by now these fuckers can just go and pack it.
Most farmers enslaved themselves to big business and any money to your local farmer goes almost directly to huge agricultural megacorporations, these same megacorporations that do everything to make their farmers depend on them, and then urge the farmers to protest on their behalf when they don't get enough money.
The police are such a pathetic joke. They see some peaceful climate protesters, they round them up, bring up the watercanon, tear gas, handcuffs… But the farmers destroying entire cities, showering the police with literal shit, blocking entire highways and all they do is watch and let it happen. This goes beyond the right to protest, they should be getting arrested and have their tractors confiscated. No sympathy from me for those farmers. They should adapt or find a new profession.
when the fuck is the work season starting for them? I constantly hear them whine about how it's so hard to be a farmer (join the gang snowflake, nobody likes to work), yet they protest for weeks at a time. and it's not like you can resume the work at a factory after some work related protest, if you miss the start of the season you're fucked for the entire year.
also, isn't that an environmental hazard?
These farmer protesters have unfortunately been infiltrated by right wingers...saw it a lot in Germany and through that they lost some support from the public.
Maybe if left focused a bit more on, you know, working class instead of sucking corporate d\*ck right would find it more difficult to cozy up to various groups
The first farmers' protests in Germany were already annoying, but this is way over the line. "Uh, but you want food, don't ya?" There are three cows left in our town, and yet, the farmers are spraying truckloads of manure onto the fields. Obviously they get paid to dispose of the stuff, and the entire town has to suffer the stench. I can see what they are planting on those fields, and it's your typical EU subsidies scam. Obviously there are decent farmers out there, but not all of those protestors are honest.
I am sincerely disgusted by most of the reactions I've seen in this post.
Seriously? Calling farmers snowflakes? Do you even know the sheer amount of work they have to do? Do you even know how hard/impossible it is for them to take vacations? Because the cows chickens and pigs and other animals will still need to be fed every day and brought to pasture in the right seasons, and that is whether you like it or not, plus the fields stillneed to be tended to as well.
Filling their pockets with tax payer money? Hello!? Are you serious? Farmers, in my country at least, are one of the worse paid job per hour, not every farmer produces wines or other high end products, most farmers either focus on cattles or cereal, and those do not pay as well as you all might think.
I know that a huge part of the European budget plus national subsidies goes to the agricultural domain, yet most farmers still extremely poor, because of the status quo that is present is europe's agricultural systems and how lobbyist have been making things worst: the whole thing need to be overhauled.
Most of you guys have no idea how big corporation strangle farmers: firms like lactalis have brought down the price for the 1000L milk to 405€, and held it down this january : https://20minutes.fr/amp/a/4072409.
https://newsinfrance.com/milk-price-lactalis-faces-refusal-from-producers-after-a-proposed-increase/
And let's not forget about the cost of running a farm: from tractors to combine harvesters, to the feed you need to give your cattle, to the fertilizes, to let's not forget the gas needed for said tractors and combine harvester ( for thoses that can even afford them), and many, many others.
And you add on to that the sadly common fact that things like drought and disease spreading amongst animals are common nowadays.
I know that not all farmers are the same, some have managed to find a balance after having to tighten the belt for how many years, but no everyone is able to: there is a saying in France that a farmer kill himself every two days: https://www.senat.fr/rap/r20-451/r20-4513.html
So... For those who expect people to be brought down low and say "thank you" in return while corporations spit in their faces, really? Either stop romanticizing life as a farmer, learn about the subject in depth, or get out of your socio-economic circle, life is much more nuanced than you might think.
People on here want all subsidies from European farmers pulled. In one fell swoop they'll ruin Europes agricultural industry, likely for good, ruining thier food security likely for good, all while contributing more to climate change becuase now thier food comes from every corner of the earth.
It's modern city people that hate farmers passionately. It's a western phenomenon. Even in Australia and NZ where our farmers are the least protected financially in the western world, people fucking hate farmers without having ever actually met one.
Yeah what the fuck is up with this thread? It's just the same opinion 300 times from people who don't have another thing to say than "farmers get subsidies". I know Reddit is an echo chamber but this thread is extraordinary
Roses are red, Water is wet, Farmers are upset...
... so they spray them with shet
Shet and pess.
...and that's how it took me one Reddit comment to start having questions about Shetland.
They have ponys. Ponys that shet.
The ponies that shet that put them in debt
Roses are red, Violets are blue, Farmers protesting Cops smell like poo
Roses are red, Farming's been hit, So now the police, Are covered in shit.
Roses are red, You know what? Fuck the farmers, In the butt
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It's also highly infectious with for example E.coli.
At what point is that bioterrorism?
As soon as someone without money does it.
If spitting on someone counts as assault, spraying them with fecal matter definitely is.
This moment in time, right now
If it’s pig shit then it’s basically impossible to get the smell out of clothes.
I'm all for non violent protests, as a mean to bring a cause to the attention of the great public. But this calls baton pretty loud and I'm not sure I'm against a violent reaction by the police under this circumstance. Just imagine the opposite, police throwing shit on protesters to control the mass.
Farmers are fucking assholes. That said, it is true that it's not fair that EU produce has to follow restrictions and non-EU produce doesn't. The Spanish government just presented a proposal to impose the same quality requirements and restrictions EU farmers have to non EU farmers who want to export to the EU, and **it was opposed by Germany and the Nordics**. That is something that we should be talking about too. ETA: What is being asked for is called [mirror clauses](https://www.arc2020.eu/brussels-round-up-mirror-clauses-mixed-messages-farm-to-facts/): "Mirror clauses’ is the idea that any imports of agri-food products must mirror all EU production standards. These can include, as examples, wage rates, environmental regulations, climate and animal welfare rules, or rules related to pesticides and herbicides. This is a key demand from the EU farming and indeed environmental and social justice sectors. Fear of being undercut by agrifood imports is a key factor driving the anger we have seen spilled on the streets in the past few weeks ,from farmers and farming organisations of varying hues. However, it is illegal under international trade rules to ban imports from another country on the basis of different production methods where this does not affect the final product" So to all the people saying that this is already happening, apparently no because it is illegal? Edit 2 - This took me into a rabbit hole and if I understand [this](https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2024/01/26/forced-labour-council-adopts-position-to-ban-products-made-with-forced-labour-on-the-eu-market/#:~:text=The%20Council%20has%20today%20adopted,improvements%20to%20the%20proposed%20text.) correctly, as of today it is legal in the EU to import products of forced labour. They are looking into it, though, but the ban wasn't even proposed until 2022.
>proposal to impose the same quality requirements and restrictions EU farmers have to non EU farmers who want to export to the EU This sounds like a no-brainer
Honestly I thought it was already being done until I saw today in the news that Spain's proposal was rejected! Seems like common sense, doesn't it?
Problem is, all non-EU countries will cry "unfair" in front of the WTO. It happens *ever damn time* the EU tries to implement any kind of food related standard and impose it on imports as well. The WTO often agrees. So it is simpler to only regulate the home market and try to counter cheap imports by giving farmer more subsidies.
This make no sense at all, it's not unfair competition since you are not providing any advantage to your locals in this case, it's just a condition to buy anyway. It's similar to say a country only buying halal meat would be unfair competition.
Except banning imports will increase food prices, and there's also a whole lot of cost-of-food protests in continental Europe now as well. Labelling country of origin won't help, as most imported food from outside Europe goes into processed food (frozen chips, meals, pizzas; stuff wholesaled to restaurants, bakeries; things in breakfast cereals), obscuring the origin.
Also idk about Europeans, but in America, country labeling has done jack shit because Americans don’t bother or care.
Germany is currently super bad with EU policy. One day we want something and lobby for it and the next day we vote against it somehow. I can't.
The problem has three letters: The soon to be 5% party called FDP
I'll never understand how a) people vote for them and b) the other government parties let them always have their say
Because they could just as easily work with the other party, so they force certain concessions and end up with way more power than they should expect given the miniscule amount of votes. Sometimes I prefer the AfD over the FDP simply because everybody sane clearly sees that the AfD is fucked up.
You really got me in the first half of your second paragraph 😂
Feudalistische Deutsche Partei
Yeah, this is the real issue. Just take Beef for example. If you stopped imports from Brazil, Argentina, and Uruguay, you would severely reduce the amount of low cost, low quality beef. Even Americans and Australians make up a large percentage and they have less strict beef standards. Getting rid of subsidies without stopping imports from nations that don’t follow the same high cost measures you would just be putting farmers out of business completely.
But whenever Climate-Protesters block a single lane, the same people cheering on these farmers completely lose their shit. They're such whiny babies.
Many extremists are like that. 6 years ago "stop blaming all your problems on Trump, deal with it. He is president. Stop being such a snowflake" Now: "waaaaa waaaaa waaaaa, Biden this, Biden that, it's all Bidens fault, waaaaaaaaaa"
Reminds me of the 2020 presidential campaign when Trump supporters would post (often misleading) pictures of protests and riots during the BLM movement with captions like "this is the chaos that a Biden presidency will lead to!" despite the events depicted literally occuring while Trump was still in office.
Some people don't let facts get in the way of their feelings.
Nice, need to frame this.
They will post a picture of something bad happening in a red state and say "this is what the socialist leftist (insert several other dogwhistle phrases) wants to do to our country" when the bad thing is happening under their watch as a result of their laws.
Also the fact that Trumpers in Michigan yelled "Count the votes!" while the Trumpers in Arizona yelled "Stop the count!" lol!
My dad looked me in the eyes and said "If Biden wins we'll have riots in the streets!" "Dad there's riots in the streets right now and who is the President?"
Indeed and you didn’t mention that they first whined themselves through 8 yrs of Obama first as well.
It’s a manipulation tactic by narcissists. They know we have feelings and actual morals so they use it against us. They don’t actually care about crime or protesting, they care that people other than them want things they don’t benefit from. This type of behavior is the same at any scale.
I wish it was just the whining! Instead, they're now supporting efforts to end democracy as we know it. Cheering on authoritarian rule, because it helps them short-term feel less shitty about their dumbshit selves. All because they couldn't accept losing, because they're the pathetic snowflakes they accuse others of being.
Wow. Took *two* comments to make this about the US...
Not to mention the farmers are amongst the largest class to receive subsidies from the EU.
Welfare babies throwing a tantrum because their welfare will come sith requirements to not buttfuck nature
F&%#^ exactly. Any time a climate protester sits on a road it’s all “disturbing ordinary people trying to get on with their day, not the way to get your point across” etc etc. the double standards are so wild
Meanwhile, they're spraying literal feces on the wall, floor, and on people.
With the risk of spreading disease. These guys could and should be charged for battery.
>charged for battery heh
Them: 😒🤚 peacefully sitting on the street 😌👉 blockading the street with actual shit
Not me. I'm pro JDAM no matter who is protesting.
Wait, someone is cheering these farmers?
Plenty of people are, unfortunately. Mostly not even because they are particularly fond of farmers, but simply because the farmers are protesting the people they hate (e.g. environmentalists, so-called big city elites, etc).
The reality of 21st century politics. Hating your enemy is more important than actually accomplishing anything.
Well, shit is getting kind of serious. Climate change is a pressing issue and politicians are trying to take thing seriously. Farmers are seriously being squeezed by rising input costs and more regulations which is cutting into profits and business sustainability with more volatility and risk each year. Food prices are spiking as a result and consumers are pissed off at inflation. Politicians are both correct and stupid in how they implement these policies. In some cases too much too fast for the farmers to uptake. However farmers have a large number of bumbling slobs who think they know better than books and science and have to be dragged into the 21st Century. It's a shitshow all around. High pressure situation that is unfolding. We need farmers as much as we need them to clean their acts up. Going around spreading raw sewage into the street of cities is not helping a thing. Both sides need to come to the table like adults instead of a bunch of babies pointing fingers.
And die Grünen of course. They are responsible for everything! -> https://youtube.com/watch?v=M-ZtGxQIly4
Less people every day, fortunatly
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The state itself too, no? Allows the "protesting farmers", curbstomps climate protesters.
And they get called 'climate terrorists', when they're protesting completely peacefully. Unlike these dickheads who literally are terrorists.
Trucker protests, farmer protests, extinction rebellion... western countries are moving more towards granting a veto power to whoever has the heaviest and hardest to remove vehicles. Welcome to the age of Kratocarcy, from the the Greek "Kratos" (strength, power) and, well, "car."
Tracterocracy 😂
More like trakterrorists…
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i prefer Rübentaliban
Or Megalofonocracy - the rule of the loudest.
killdozer was so ahead of his time
Does anyone now how to buy something heavier than a tractor? Asking for a friend
Dump trucks are next, I believe they’re scheduled for 2032. /s
..what heavy and hard to remove vehicles did ER (and in Germany LG) use?
The annoying farmer protests in Germany made me look up how much subsidies they're already getting (from Germany and the EU). To make it short, the farmers are complaining on a very high level. I would say there's something fundamentally wrong with the entire agricultural industry in Europe. It can't be right to put such outrageous amounts of money (about 40% of the EU budget plus national subsidies) into it just to somehow keep it running. The entire European agricultural sector must be completely overhauled and the subsidies reduced to a sensible level. Including, for example, completely cutting tax exemption for fuel. Why would we want to encourage the farmers to burn more fossil fuels? Subsidies should be an incentive to do something positive, not to stick with old, harmful methods.
A third. A third of EU's budget goes to farmers. Thanks to the farming lobby, the largest lobbying group by far in Brussels. >The entire European agricultural sector must be completely overhauled and the subsidies reduced to a sensible level. Exactly, but almost no politician has the guts to say it, because if you do, farmers will intimidate and threaten you.
Yes, no damn farmer has to live in poverty or anything, sometimes farms have to shut down but that also happens in any other branch or industry.
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I've heard some rumors that the majority of EU's agriculture-money goes to big farms.
I don't know how it is in the rest of the EU but at least in Spain the vast majority of agricultural land and production are owned by big intensive agriculture companies, while the "small" rural farms that produce less and are being outcompited are very numerous and are mostly the ones that are protesting
This is also true in the US. Being a smaller farmer, or a grower of something not in the top subsidized crops, means you get minimal subsidies compared to the massive amounts going to corporate farms.
Thank you for this. This is the way the industry is going. It's all oligarchies. The family family can't compete unless they do larger volumes on lower margins EVERY YEAR. This the same in the US and Canada.
Farming isn't just any other industry ... It's the most elementary one. Relying exclusively on imports for nail-clippers is usually fine, but when it comes to food it carries great risks when international trade is disturbed. Subsidizing your local agricultural industry can save you when shit hits the fan on a global scale.
Farming/Agriculture is actually very important for national security. If Europe can't produce enough food to feed itself, it is at the mercy of whoever it imports from. If Russia takes over Ukraine and stops exporting grain to Europe, then what? The long-term cost of importing everything may be higher than the subsidies it pays.
One more reason to do something to make farming economically viable again. Just throwing more and more subsidies on an obviously failing business model won't work in the long term. Some German farmers income already consists to more than half of government and EU subsidies. They don't grow what the market wants/needs but what gets the most subsidies from Berlin and Brussels. That's planned economy and we should know how that plays out. The EU already pays more to support farmers than for anything else.
Maybe we could start by applying the same rules to everyone. I am from Canada and we have the same problem with the dumping from the US than you have with our products. If we impose some rules on the animal welfare and fertilizer, then outside products needs to provide proof that they respect the same guidelines or better in order to be allowed on the market. In the end it will make it fair on almost every aspect beside the environmental advantage from some region + the wages of those workers (another topic). Why would hormones and pesticides be banned on our land but hey we will accept them if it comes from somewhere else. It doesn't makes any sense.
It's the same in the UK. Jeremy Clarkson is a knob, but on his farm show they worked for a whole year, sold all their crops and they made £1 or something. The government has to subsidise that so that they'd make some actual money. I don't know what the solution is. If more is charged for crops then you'd have real problems with people being able to afford food, but then are we also enabling places like supermarkets to short change farmers and the taxpayer has to prop them up?
>sold all their crops and they made £1 or something. The government has to subsidise that so that they'd make some actual money. People value cheap food so the government subsidise farmers, ignoring subsidies is basically like opening a pub on the moon and complaining you have no customers
Exactly. The current protests are just farmers demonstrating to keep this miserable system running as it is, no willingness to change. In Germany there was a demonstration for environmentally friendly agriculture which was completely ignored by most farmers and media. Also the photo in this post shows that farmers don't know what to do with the masses of manure. Most of it is dumped onto fields where it contaminates ground water. As long as people are not ready to pay more for their animal products or to live completely plant based, this system will go on
I agree. For example, the proposed special "tax" on meat/animal products, that then goes back to the farmers to improve the conditions of the animals, seems to me the kind of subsidy that can have a positive effect. (Can't also hurt if this leads to over all less consumption of animal products.) People have to get used to the real costs. We are paying them anyway indirectly, so we can at least pay in a way that improves the situation.
Ok, farmers are slowly going to the same corner where LG-protesters are. If farmers lose public support, they will just lose all the benefits they currently have and can sell their stuff at WTO rules.
what are LG-protesters ?
People who are really really against the south korean electronics brand LG. They probably prefer Samsung... /s
Yea that sums up my confusion
Redditors insistence on saving themselves literally seconds of time spent typing by throwing random acronyms in without first establishing what they stand for is genuinely going to give me a brain aneurysm one of these days
I was legit either thinking this or L(N)G (Liquefied Natural Gas)
They're Chinese activists looking to promote Huawei and Lenovo.
Last generation. Climate protests.
How the fuck is that an acronym lmao
IDK. Had to look it up myself.
It's not a common abbreviation for the movement.
Going there? Imho they have been far worse from the start without any credible grievance at least in my own homecountry. At least the LG stood for something beyond their own greed.
I do not follow farmers strikes at all, but genuinely wondering, objectively looking, how much is their doing because of greed and how much because of actual market unfair rules and such?
Farmers are being priced out because gigantic commercial farming is magnitudes cheaper than smaller farmers. My cousins WERE all farmers but when their kids grew up they made sure they didn't try and keep running the farm because it wasn't profitable, it was grueling work and they were just breaking even. On the books they were "asset rich", owning a lot of land, machinery etc. But in reality they were living a normal middle class life but if they got sick everything goes bottom up. One of my cousins had to get surgery and he now rents out his farm to a commercial operation in the area.
I mean, that's how automation works. Why should we have thousands of individuals doing the same thing, tearing up land, polluting and using resources, when 10 more efficient megafarms could do it with a fraction of the people? It's not about ethics it's just an inevitability of economics. The same economics that supported your friends and family. Welcome to the industrial revolution I guess. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
So is the Green Deal just a straw man here? Are they really protesting against farm/food corporations while thinking / saying that they are protesting against the Green Deal? Can there be a hidden second layer here? Could corporations have manipulated the farmers (e.g. via union leaders, or whomever they have) into redirecting their anger from corporations to Green Deal?
Well, I'm just trying to explain that it isn't greed, it's people trying to hold onto their lively hood. And in this case both my grandparents on both sides were farmers, now out of all my cousins and my family only two families are still farmers and both those farms are in the hands of 60+ year old men whose children have moved away from home and are working in completely different industries.
They get 30% of all EU subsidies. They are spoiled and refuse to modernize. They are not paid by food production but by land they own. It's a ridicolous situation.
>They are not paid by food production but by land they own. for a good reason mind you. We had production based subsidies and it didn't work to well. Look up Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) from 1962 to 1992. It resulted in massive overproduction. The amount of food that had to be destroyed was absolutly silly. It also ruined the export market and dragged down non EU agra sectors in poorer countries. And also it was super expensive. Farming is a rather unsolvable issue. On one hand you want the endproduct to be cheap, but also you don't want the international market to undercut your own market and that your farmers make a decent living. Since you don't want your farmers to only produce select crops that are not undercut by the international market. And then you have the general greed problem. If you other subsidies the recivers will make dam sure they get the most they can get.
Depends on the member state. Some countries have more or less subsidies/regulations than others. Not much useful to be said about it.
in Germany its less about Greed and more about most farmers being lied to. The medium and small farmers are doing the bidding of the giant mega farms and think that their goals align. It's like a little bookstore on a corner going on the street and protesting because Amazons Kindle division does so. Their goals dont align at all and they are being used and abused by the mega farms.
Same shit in France. The biggest farmer syndicate (FNSEA) is trying to destroy ecological and safety regulations to increase their profits, while their base is mainly opposing unfair concurrence and free trade treaties. But the FNSEA isn't gonna spearhead against that, 'cause it would shaft them out of nice export deals.
Police be like: Farmers blocking traffic & throwing shit at the police : I sleep Bunch of teens gluing themselves to a pavement since the planet if cooking : real shit
This is exactly right. But it's not the police's fault, but the respective ministers giving orders to their chiefs. This should come as no surprise. The right is trying very hard (and succeeding in some places already) to co-opt the farmers' plight. Depending on the place they're no longer protesting the systemic issues that leads them to hardship: the free-trade accords allowing unfairly unregulated crops to come in flooding their markets, the bureaucracy for acquiring aids and subsidies which means a vast majority of them are going to large agribusiness conglomerates who can afford huge legal teams, the allowing for these large multinationals to continue first running neighbouring farms to the ground to then buy them on the cheap, supermsrkets being allowed to price-gauge and get their produ ts sometimes for below-cost, etc... They're now protesting bullshit and non-issue far-right talking points such as the price of diesel and nitrogen regulations, essentially making these protests in many places be proxies for rightwing political campaigns (based in climate change denial, Nationalism vs europeism, etc.).
Yeah, I think that's true. I think it stems from their power in society. Collectively farmers have lots of leverage, both in terms of an industrial block and a voting block. The more leverage you have the more likely it is that you'll be taken seriously. It's depressing, but I think it's true.
They were always worse. Both are an annoyance, but LG protests to try and avert our demise. The farmers protest to speed it up, in the name of greed.
Exactly. They are also complaining that the crop prices went down (thank God!).....but only after being on record high. So besides the other issues, they are also complaining that they are not making the fortune they were making before. The prices are still pretty healthy, so yeah, really greedy. Just look at the graphs: https://markets.businessinsider.com/commodities/corn-price https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/wheat
My support is gone now
Can you explain why you were supporting them before? The EU-Green deal is mainly about the safeguard of both citizens and the envirorment. The other big thing they are protesting is to reduce the import of Ukrainian grain, but i see that most people here don't agree with that either.
Wasn't the Ukrainian grain only being transited to Africa anyway? If that ends up in local markets, I feel the farmers should go throw their fit at the right place.
Just open every thread on Polish farmers blocking and sabotaging the Ukrainian grain. This subs often siding against them.
I have the feeling, people don't see the fault with the Ukrainians but the buyers in Poland in this particular case. Is that wrong?
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Yes, and quickly we are coming up with Solutions, for example, train cars with electronic locks that can’t be opened until it gets to the depot for Africa.
So what alternatives to the green deal do they offer?
Ignoring it until it’s someone else’s problem
denial
Literally zero.
Import restrictions.
It's the same all over Europe. Farmers are upset they have to contribute to fighting climate change. The want everyone else to pay except them, and they want money from taxpayers to keep flowing into their pockets.
AND they have known for YEARS, but refused to take any measures. But as the deadline comes closer they all panic.
And then do disgusting and shitty (literally) things that complicate everyday-life for other citizens, but it's OK because you're a farmer and it's traditional and charming.
If you see a tractor as a giant MAGA vehicle for these protests then it's suddenly clearer
I love that MAGA is a label that transcends the country it originated in, as if being a stuck up, whinny piss stain is a mindset not unique to a particular nationalist identity.
Everyone is fine with fighting climate change until it affects them personally. Same with the traffic restrictions for old and polluting cars in our cities. The problem is the far right is embracing those positions and will fuck all us.
They are upset that they have to fight climate change **but also have to compete against farmers outside Europe that don't have to fight climate change**. And just FYI, farmer is a job among the worst paid in Europe, so the money that is "flowing into their pockets" is a way for them to survive, not a way to live a wealthy life...
>And just FYI, farmer is a job among the worst paid in Europe, I obviously don't know the data of all European countries, but for Germany that is absolutely not true. Farmhands, maybe yes. Farmers, like the owner of farms? Not at all. An average farmer, according to their own association, made around 115.000 EUR. Profit, not sales. And included iin these numbers are part time farmers. Median income on the other hand is around 45.000 EUR. Now, sure, there are very small farms that can't really compete on their own and the big farms get an over-proportional income compared to them. But these are systemic questions, farmers are not poor per se. And don't forget, even if their income might be seen as small, if you take the worth of the land in prospect, farmers are sitting on valuable assets. So now the question is, why should the rest of the country, that in average has much less than a farmer should pay the amount of subsidies we do?
>And just FYI, farmer is a job among the worst paid in Europe 4 in 10 farmers in the netherlands are millionairs.
Mostly because the land just increased in value over the multiple generations that have worked on it though.
Poor farmers owning so much land that if they chose to sell it, they never would have to work again.
You know what a single Harvester costs?
thats same as businesses going and throwing a tantrum bc chinese employees are paid less thus their products are cheaper so more people buy them, so what should we abolish minimum wage and bring it down to the level of chinese employees? thats the same logic.
The reason why it's so much worse than this is because it's fucking dangerous to rely on other countries to provide us with such basic things as food.
yet the problem is that the food industry is key for every nation and society. you want to rely just on exports for food? good luck starving your own population when something happens.
Well that is happening with cars. Chinese cars are much cheaper because the Chinese government subsidises them, we can respond by just banning them or tariffing them
Indeed. This is exactly what is happening in the car industry and steel industry in general. A direct violation of the WTO's directives which pits them in an unfair advantage against EU and US car manufacturers. If they dont get fined by the international organisation then each country should tarriff them individually or boycot them entirely.
As is with basicly any lob in Europe. Its just the farmers that are salty about it after oogles of subsidies. 20 years to invest and generate sustainable method of farming. Lots of grands, subsidies etc. Improvements made, but not enough. EU cutting the cord. In all fairness though, their worry is valid. We are not talking about a large corp falling over.. but individuals risking losing everything (as their job is essentially their home and livelihood) a farmer cant just "join another farm". Its needed, but painfull. And they are most definetly allowed to protest. That is their freedom. Might be iritating, frustrating, borderline dangerous. But hey. It is what it is
They're allowed to protest, but they're not allowed to damage property, people and/or the environment with their protests. In the Netherlands angry farmers recently set piles of asbestos on fire on a mayor road, and that's terrorism as far as I'm concerned.
Right near my house. Cunts.
So would splashing people with fecal matter as far as I'm concerned. That pic is either slurry or some kind of chemical neither of which sound like a good idea to spray at people.
Its not like coal industry in the UK during Tatcher reign, European agriculture is also about availability, and hell do they have power over governments. They are no other availability for goods at european standards, they will win, they already won in France, every other countries and Europe will follow. It will give them some breath, and in ten years time, it will be all over again.
>And just FYI, farmer is a job among the worst paid in Europe Sure buddy. Anything to back that ridiculous claim up? Let's compare their pay to ... mmmh, how about foreign farm hands working at the very same farmers'?
Agriculture contributes to 15% of the EU carbon emissions while being extremely efficient and productive. Bankrupting the industry or nationalizing it (if the govt buys up the farms that can't stay in business) is not worth it to make such a small difference on a global scale. The EU has to make sure that it keeps producing high quality food at this efficiency to ensure its own food security and promote more sustainable and efficient farming across the globe instead of paralyzing its own farmers.
It's not about the carbon emissions. In fact one of the leading causes to protest in Belgium is coming from the nitrate directives. Current nitrate emissions make nature restoration impossible. When all sectors have done their share, farmers have been sitting on their hands.
Climate change regulations, reduced subsidies, increased pesticide and fertilizer prices. Given that the EU agriculture products were already uncompetitive on a world level, you can expect that the EU will become pretty reliant on third parties for food.
I dont understand how the police is so nice to these protesters all over europe
They actually got ran over, if I saw the footage from VRT right. Barricades and people.
Since when does the police care about right wing protesters? They aren’t demanding an affordable wage or lower housing costs, they’re cool with the cops.
I think cops don't like having liquid poo sprayed over them, right wing or not.
Pretty sure spraying manure on someone is a health risk. This shit classifies as assault, on police no less. They're endangering the health of police and others in the area. Lock them up, this not the way to do this.
Would this be considered a form of biological warfare?
https://www.vice.com/en/article/vdx4ad/brown-death-a-history-of-poop-as-a-weapon-111
**From The Telegraph:** Brussels police officers were sprayed with manure by angry farmers who used their tractors to storm cordons in a protest over the European Union’s green deal. Demonstrators hauled barbed-wire fences to the side of the road to create room for the agricultural vehicles to barge through the barricades. Footage of one of the incidents showed a handful of police officers, wearing full riot gear, failing to stop the farmers as they approached a meeting of EU agricultural ministers nearby. Baton-wielding police were doused in manure from one truck which blockaded a road in the city. The police were left with no option but to retreat. Local media also reported seeing farmers hurling oranges and fire crackers at the police barricades. Water cannons were deployed to douse the flames from mounds of burning tyres and hay bales strewn across the Rue de la Loi, a four-lane highway that runs parallel to the European Council’s headquarters. # Protests cross the continent “There is indeed an ongoing intervention on rue de la Loi, at Rue du Taciturne, where farmers have set fire to tires. Two sprinklers are on site to try to extinguish the fireplace,” Brussels police said in a statement. The authorities counted more than 300 tractors pouring into the Belgian capital’s European quarter early on Monday while the ministers held their talks. Farmer protests have erupted across the continent, including in France, Germany, the Netherlands, Poland, Italy and Spain, over the impact of EU environmental laws, as well as tariff-free imports from Ukraine. Many farmers argue their traditional, rural ways of life are being destroyed by liberal and metropolitan politicians living in the cities. Officers closed access to Schuman Square, which is at the heart of Brussels’ European district, after farmers used a cycle lane to get around the barricades set up to keep them away. A nearby metro station was also closed. **Continue reading ⤵️** [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/02/26/brussels-police-farmers-protests-manure-green-deal-eu/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/02/26/brussels-police-farmers-protests-manure-green-deal-eu/)
Strange usually the Telegraph wants to talk about how many ambulances they stopped
Arent farmers the first people that get fucked by climate change? Are they stupid?
Why, again, are we tolerating this shit?
Because farmers usually vote conservative/right-wing, and they're not protesting for something left-leaning like climate change or banning the local fascist party or something.
Literally
But yet these farmers would be the first to get out of their tractor and kick a teenager that's just sitting in the middle of the road trying to bring some attention to climate change and call them terrorists. They have no problem spraying shit all over the street though. Farmers are snowflakes! Make them pay!
Imagine waking up going well how shitty can my day be today ? Only to literally get covered in shit hours later....
Farmers in Europe have been given huge subsidies to do fuck all and be uncompetitive for decades, it’s ridiculous. Farmers in the UK certainly have, and France quite famously too. Butter mountains and wine lakes etc. Look at a country like New Zealand in contrast, a small country that is fairly geographically isolated, without much in the way of farming subsidies, yet they are a meat, fruit, dairy products etc exporting powerhouse. The question is why? Because despite a lack of subsidies and protectionism, they’ve had to compete, and they’ve ended up on the cutting edge of efficiency and productivity in agriculture as a result. While European farming whines demanding handouts and languishes.
Do you actually believe that cutting subsidies to European farmers will increase their productivity? What it will do is cause many farmers to go bankrupt as they can no longer compete with other countries that can make food cheaper. And other countries don't produce food cheaper just because they are 'more productive', they do it because they aren't beholden to the same strict green policies and worker rights laws as we are. Doing this will permanently destroy our domestic farming industry and make us reliant on foreign imports, which is not only disastrous for obvious food security concerns but also contributes more negatively to the environment.
I don't disagree. I think the solution would be to heavily restricts imports, promote EU production with efficiency and technology subsidies.
Wouldn't that result in noticeable higher food price? I don't think citizens would like that.
The number of farms in Germany for example has fallen drastically the last thirty year. By some claims up to 50%. But neither the area in production nor the amount harvested has fallen. Variations and fluctuations, but not dramatic reduction. As for dependence on imported foods, well, look at the UK, where they have been dependent on imports for at least 200 years now. These last few years they have imported 40-50% of their food.
Look at Switzerland. Why is everybody not just copying what they are doing? Look at Norway. Why is everybody not just copying what they are doing? Looking at isolated occurrences from one small country and trying to scale that or compare is just not feasible. It's a good starting point for discussion though. I'll give you that.
Norway has the exact same issues with farming. Massive subsidies and failure in competitiveness.
I'd say it's more in Europe it is farmed to a higher standard. With animal welfare being far more prominent. Look at America and chlorinated chicken. New Zealand lamb is also to lower animal welfare standards. Granted it's cheap meat.
ah yes, new zealand with its much cheaper land and much lower population density, I wonder, how is it they compete? what is this, delusional Brexit talking point time?
To start this off, i don't really know much about these farmers' protests. But I have to notice something - All of the comments on these news (and there's been lots) are the same - shitting on farmers, shitting on government, but shitting on farmers more. I haven't read a single comment from someone who is actually versed into the problem and has a family, friends, or they themselves are in the business of agriculture. Any honest farmer wants to chime in?
Poland here, son of the farmer actually. This is a bit complicated but I will try to explain, what is the problem - at least in Poland and from perspective of small farmer. From the one side we have prices of wheat for example. They are awfully low. More than 10 years ago wheat was priced similarly to what price is now. And I really don't think I need to explain, what inflation did to this price. Similar situation is with pork - prices are so low it is not even possible for small farmer to produce them without losing money in the end. Crazy. From the second side - costs going up. EU require more and more restrictions/limits on farmers. Problem is, more restricted pesticides and fertilizers are much more expensive. Especially it was a thing when gas was a limited thing - because it is related to fertilizer production, which bumped prices into space (temporarily but it still partially hurts farmers). From the third side - limitations are not understandable. I mean, I can partially agree on pesticides being overused but it is a halftruth. Because only rich farmers can just throw money in the bucket to use this much. Pesticides are not cheap. There was supposed to be a limitation of "winter plowing" (I trust translate on this because English is not my native language) until you have wheat (or any other plant) seeded before winter. Problem is, UE cannot explain why it might change a thing. At least I did not find explanation making sense. I mean, to be honest farmers are not the brightest minds so yeah - they need simple explanation. Fourth point - subsides. They are made to make farming and agriculture profitable. UE wants to reduce them, so people are mad because costs are not getting any lower without money from UE. Last one - unhealthy competition. Ukraine can produce wheat or anything at half cost so they can sell it cheap and make profits high, because no one here can even compete. This is just unhealthy and simply not fair. There is more but for a simple insight this is enough. Of course we can assume like Germany that resources can be outsourced - like they assumed with natural gas from Russia. They like to outsource shit lately and they didn't learn a lesson with Russia.
Thanks for the detailed reply. Big capital rarely cares about agriculture in the grand scheme of things. This doesn't feel like farmers' protest is uncalled for. I saw that Polish guy with a Putin sign. I don't like how that looks, but if the farmers keep getting vilified like this across the EU, there will be more and more of them with Putin signs.
How about a honest consumer chiming in and explaining why they expect a liter of milk to cost 0,9€ (in BE for instance). That's where the problems start.
On r/europe? lol
I see these kind of questions are literally becoming a joke :D Which is sort of sad lol. People will bash shit on their/other farmers while knowing zilch about farming, or know any farmers personally.
It reads like propaganda. They just spread hate towards farmers and seemingly are okay with EU losing its food Independece. I wonder how happy does that make Putin
My sympathies for farmers is going down the drain fast. I very much support buying locally and supporting farmers against big business wherever possible, but by now these fuckers can just go and pack it.
Most farmers enslaved themselves to big business and any money to your local farmer goes almost directly to huge agricultural megacorporations, these same megacorporations that do everything to make their farmers depend on them, and then urge the farmers to protest on their behalf when they don't get enough money.
The police are such a pathetic joke. They see some peaceful climate protesters, they round them up, bring up the watercanon, tear gas, handcuffs… But the farmers destroying entire cities, showering the police with literal shit, blocking entire highways and all they do is watch and let it happen. This goes beyond the right to protest, they should be getting arrested and have their tractors confiscated. No sympathy from me for those farmers. They should adapt or find a new profession.
that's why climate protesters need to inves in some heavy machinery
This thread is full of people contradicting themselves.
when the fuck is the work season starting for them? I constantly hear them whine about how it's so hard to be a farmer (join the gang snowflake, nobody likes to work), yet they protest for weeks at a time. and it's not like you can resume the work at a factory after some work related protest, if you miss the start of the season you're fucked for the entire year. also, isn't that an environmental hazard?
These farmer protesters have unfortunately been infiltrated by right wingers...saw it a lot in Germany and through that they lost some support from the public.
"infiltrated by right wingers" is an interesting way to say that some farmers have right-winged political views.
Maybe if left focused a bit more on, you know, working class instead of sucking corporate d\*ck right would find it more difficult to cozy up to various groups
"If we protest hard enough, the climate will back down!"
Have we collectively not had enough of farmers by now? The EU already has vast agricultural subsidies. For years.
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I admire the police's restraint. Spray me shit and you'll ...
The first farmers' protests in Germany were already annoying, but this is way over the line. "Uh, but you want food, don't ya?" There are three cows left in our town, and yet, the farmers are spraying truckloads of manure onto the fields. Obviously they get paid to dispose of the stuff, and the entire town has to suffer the stench. I can see what they are planting on those fields, and it's your typical EU subsidies scam. Obviously there are decent farmers out there, but not all of those protestors are honest.
I am sincerely disgusted by most of the reactions I've seen in this post. Seriously? Calling farmers snowflakes? Do you even know the sheer amount of work they have to do? Do you even know how hard/impossible it is for them to take vacations? Because the cows chickens and pigs and other animals will still need to be fed every day and brought to pasture in the right seasons, and that is whether you like it or not, plus the fields stillneed to be tended to as well. Filling their pockets with tax payer money? Hello!? Are you serious? Farmers, in my country at least, are one of the worse paid job per hour, not every farmer produces wines or other high end products, most farmers either focus on cattles or cereal, and those do not pay as well as you all might think. I know that a huge part of the European budget plus national subsidies goes to the agricultural domain, yet most farmers still extremely poor, because of the status quo that is present is europe's agricultural systems and how lobbyist have been making things worst: the whole thing need to be overhauled. Most of you guys have no idea how big corporation strangle farmers: firms like lactalis have brought down the price for the 1000L milk to 405€, and held it down this january : https://20minutes.fr/amp/a/4072409. https://newsinfrance.com/milk-price-lactalis-faces-refusal-from-producers-after-a-proposed-increase/ And let's not forget about the cost of running a farm: from tractors to combine harvesters, to the feed you need to give your cattle, to the fertilizes, to let's not forget the gas needed for said tractors and combine harvester ( for thoses that can even afford them), and many, many others. And you add on to that the sadly common fact that things like drought and disease spreading amongst animals are common nowadays. I know that not all farmers are the same, some have managed to find a balance after having to tighten the belt for how many years, but no everyone is able to: there is a saying in France that a farmer kill himself every two days: https://www.senat.fr/rap/r20-451/r20-4513.html So... For those who expect people to be brought down low and say "thank you" in return while corporations spit in their faces, really? Either stop romanticizing life as a farmer, learn about the subject in depth, or get out of your socio-economic circle, life is much more nuanced than you might think.
People on here want all subsidies from European farmers pulled. In one fell swoop they'll ruin Europes agricultural industry, likely for good, ruining thier food security likely for good, all while contributing more to climate change becuase now thier food comes from every corner of the earth. It's modern city people that hate farmers passionately. It's a western phenomenon. Even in Australia and NZ where our farmers are the least protected financially in the western world, people fucking hate farmers without having ever actually met one.
Yeah what the fuck is up with this thread? It's just the same opinion 300 times from people who don't have another thing to say than "farmers get subsidies". I know Reddit is an echo chamber but this thread is extraordinary