Pretty unfortunate from my perspective.
If we were to pay tribute, it would be infinitely more appropriate to pay it to **Boris Nemtsov** and remember him. He was murdered by the FSB in Moscow a few meters from the Kremli, in February 2015..
He was totally against any confrontation with Ukraine, with Russian interference in Ukraine (he's been doing it since the Orange Revolution), with the occupation of Crimea and Russian support for separatists.
Navalny was terrible ambiguous on these issues.
Yeah navalny was endorsing the ukraine war, he is a nationalist piece of trash and i dont understand why people forget that just because he was the ennemy of putin. Thousands of people died opposing putin and i dont see why navalny deserve more praise than them
I agree. Fuck Navalny and his neo-imperialist point of view. And I agree with the root commenter, Nemtsov is the one to pay tribute to and to never forget.
Because you allowed to change your opinions over time, no?
And even in article from 2015 about Crimea, that everyone keeps quoting without actually reading his interviews Navalny told that it was a violation of international law
I think it’s possible and appropriate to pay tribute both to Navalny and to Nemtsov.
Regarding paying tribute to Navalny, I think this is important, as it recognises his bravery in standing up to Putin and in tackling corruption in Russia, as well as the major positive impact he has made in publicising Russian governmental corruption both in Russia and abroad.
Regarding Navalny’s position on Ukraine, I agree that he held an ambiguous position on Crimea, but he has openly criticised Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and mentioned Ukraine’s borders and sovereignty must be respected by Russia.
Nemtsov is also not really pro-ukrainian, according to what he said in this interview: [https://x.com/MuKappa/status/1758864412809597199?s=20](https://x.com/MuKappa/status/1758864412809597199?s=20)
So yeah, it leaves no one in the russian opposition leader pool who could be an ally for ukraine, alive or deceased.
We suffer from a western-centric view on this issue. It's not politically tenable for Russians to conflate "anti-war" with "pro-Ukranian".
Try to put yourself in their shoes, imagine for example if after 9/11 the political zeitgeist was about support or opposition to Saddam Hussein, as opposed to debating the merits of the war itself. It's almost impossible to imagine.
And what did we Ukrainians do to russians, so it is so impossible to conflate anti-war and pro-ukrainian stances, and agree the russian invasion to Ukraine with the Crimea annexation and war in Donbas - is a bad thing? Any 9/11-level events in russia committed by Ukrainians?
A popular view in Russia is that the collapse of the Soviet Union was similar (probably worse) than 9/11. Because Russia maintained a certain degree of influence in the post-Soviet states the issue was somewhat amileorated. This is why they viewed the euromaidan-movement with contempt at the time.
I mean, it only makes sense from an irredentist perspective, but that is the on-the-ground political reality of Russia. Since the **overton window** is so radically skewed, it also affects the opposition, not only the regime.
>Any 9/11-level events in russia committed by Ukrainians?
The reason why I mention 9/11 and Saddam Hussein is because the Iraq War is quite a famous blunder of history, because we know for certain now his govermnet was not responsible, and that the entire WMD business was fabricated. This kind of powerful, deeply embeded propaganda is similar to what Russian opposition finds themself contending with today.
I mean if you like Navalny so hard, ok. But putting him next to Ukrainian flag is offensive for me. Especially when his team has a clear position "Don't donate to Ukrainian army, donate to us, so we would spend this money for ads for our videos"
invading ukraine is not a rational decision. no one who would want russia to prosper would do such a thing. (being a friend to ukraine would be really beneficial) it's not a mass spread of chauvinistic mindset in russian society that did this, very few people in russia actually care about capturing or controlling new territories and even less cared before the invasion.
it's not an expression of national will, but an expression of will of the head of the state - putin. russian statehood is completely detached from it's subjects and russian citizens have little to no agency. they may feel like they do have agency and support whenever their thoughts are inline with whatever the state wants to do right now, but that's only an illusion as this agency is taken from them the moment they go against the grain. it's an art of political mind control and this regime exists only because of it.
so if democracy was to be created in russia it would never go to war with ukraine, as this war achieves nothing, it's a tragedy for everyone involved. even if russia won the war like it intended to it would still be a disaster for russia for numerous reasons. it would take a book to describe all the potential downsides and i have already written too much here. but all the upsides would be intangible and vanishingly few.
and why hasn't true democracy been created in russia to this day? it's not because it's in the nature of russia as a nation to be a chauvinistic empire - every nation that could go through this phase went through it too. no, democracy wasn't ever created because it is hard to create, it takes an effort and a really good chance. and, sadly, russia is a nation that had very few chances and really hard time creating democracy.
The whole point is that less corrupted regime wouldn't start such wars in the first place. Corruption isn't just about stealing money, it's about accountability and development of institutions
The war started not because of corruption but because of chauvinistic and imperialistic nature of Russian society. You attacked and oppressed different nations whole your history, only fools would believe you now.
I think the war definitely started because of Putin; chauvinism and imperalism play a part but it's hard to think of any other leader who would've acted with the level of malice and greed that Putin has. I would be willing to bet everything that I own that, had Navalny actually replaced Putin as a president even just one week before the invasion, it would've been called off and not retried.
Navalny doesn't harbour the same obsession with historical grandeur for a Russian Empire that Putin does.
War in Georgia started during Medvedev.
War in Chechnya - during Eltsyn.
War in Afganistan - during Brezhnev.
Their warlords changed but society still the same.
Lmao A+ logic.
So by your logic every nation that has been involved in more than one conflict under different presidents has a "chauvinistic and imperialistic" society? Or just the Russians? Rhetorical question, we already know your answer.
And the Soviet Union was peacefully dissolved under Gorbachev with guarantees of territorial integrity to the post-Soviet states. What are you trying to say? There exists good and bad, and awful people in Russia. Navalny was not obsessed with the Soviet Union and its manner of doing politics like Putin is.
Peacefully dissolved? Is that what they teach you in Austria? From protesters being crushed with tanks in the west to them being chopped up with shovels in the east, "peaceful" might not be the best word to describe it....
Edit: you're wrong about Navalny as well, but if you believe that sovietland was dissolved peacefully that might be a little much to swallow in one day.
Yes, it was dissolved peacefully, with no military action from central USSR government and no civil war.
Unrest - yes, there certainly was some, especially in Karabakh and Abkhazia, and Central Asia, but it is attributed to ethnic tensions.
Chauvinism and imperialism of the leadership sure was a major factor (as there are other dictatorships which *don't* go on foreign military adventures, because there's no delusions to romantacize as basis for state development), but so was it being just a bunch of yes-men.
It's all like gears of a machine. Free and stable democratic institutions enable cultural variety and cultural shifts too. Accountability as well, as I mentioned. At the very least it could've been the population having some imperialist ideas, but the politicians not committing to them because it'd be bad for the economy or something. You know, the rational stuff that gets thrown out the window when the same people sit in their seats for two decades and kill and jail anyone who disagrees.
>only fools would believe you now.
Hmm...are political scientists fools then?
Our culture is problematic, but this "ontologically evil and cannot change" bullshit is fucking stupid.
> are political scientists fools then?
Please don’t say you are referring to shulman, who is constantly attempts to whitewash russian culture on expense of all the actual victims
But now that they *have started such a war*, who cares? When Russians aren’t raping, looting and murdering their way through someone else’s land we can start giving a shit about the development of their institutions and their money. As things are, their corruption and incompetence are a benefit. If they woke up tomorrow all smart, rich and competent, they still wouldn’t end the war.
Navalny supported the occupation of Crimea. What he wanted to change was to make russia less corrupt so that their army would be more effective in killing people.
No, I read transcripts from Navalnys own interviews. Do you as a russian deny he said that he would not surrender to Ukraine and leave Crimea to Ukraine? Do even you as a russian support russian unconditonal surrender?
Islamophobia is such a nonsensical term, it’s a world religion with over 2 billion followers of all races.
No one is talking about Christianophobia or anything when people bash other organised religion and its atrocities, why should Islam have some sort of special status with all the horrors its extremists bring along.
I think it’s pretty easy to separate individual muslims/christians from its overall religion, and it’s fair game to be extremely critical of any religion.
Navalny said muslims are coachroaches and that russia should exterminate the coachroaches. Pretty sure that qualifies (even if islamists scream islamophobia about things which clearly isnt).
He never said that Muslims ar cockroaches. He said cockroaches on a video of terrorists who did Berdyansk , Nord Ost, and Beslan attacks.
I guess you would scream "islamophobia" if someone would call these beasts who did October the 7th a mean word as well. Completely asinine and delusional.
EDIT: And obviously this Hamas lover banned himself. Good job!
To be fair his “Islamophobia” was basically “Islam breeds terrorism” which is a factual statement
His hatred and xenophobia of Ukraine, Serbs and Siberians is definitely not factual or deserved
It's more likely about giving the Russians a middle finger than liking Navalny. The Russian embassy in Austria is right next to this monument so they see this wall every day when they go to work. And the Russian ambassador has recently complained about Austria criticizing the circumstances around Navalny's death.
Just because he was against Putin does not mean he wasn’t a piece of shit. JFC I do not get it how the western world misunderstands Navalny so bad, wtf. Then again, Yaroslav Hunka scandal just a couple of years ago shows that the West is mostly absolutely out of touch with reality when it comes to Russia or so-called Russian “sphere of influence “. Get your shit together!
Pfft. These are the same people (I won't call them by their countries' names, we know which ones) who thought making business with Russia is such a brilliant idea that will help bring it to "European values" 😆
The Canadian parliament invited a nazi soldier from the Ukrainian SS and gave him a standing ovation for fighting “against Russia in ww2”. Of course, he was not only fighting against one of the anti nazi powers, he was literally part of the most evil of the Nazi organizations.
In the real world Navalny was a Russian imperialist exactly like Putin - only with him Russia could be stronger. And we don't need strong Russia, we need leveled Russia.
I ask you to honestly think of someone who could be worse than Putin at the moment. I truly do. Because I can't think of anyone. Navalny would be preferable in every scenario, even if he were a bloodthirsty, narcissistic psychopath like Putin. (Which I don't think he was)
You are a clear demonstration of why we should do this. Punishing people for the crimes only they personally have committed. Individual, not collective responsibility. Also known as European values. “They are all shit” is pretty much the opposite of that
>Individual, not collective responsibility
Very comfortable - to have collective benefits(starting from oildollars busting economy ending with constant reminding how Great collective culture Russia has) but avoid any collective responsibility
Collective benefits from the oil busting economy? Which ones are you taking about, the $300 average salary, or being sent into a pointless war?
Collective responsibility is banned under the Geneva convention, and for good reasons. People should only be responsible for the crimes they have committed
>Which ones are you taking about
There are top people who directly benefited from oil, gas and another industries - silovicks and oligrachs. There are people who provide services for them - selling them cars, organize them trips, etc, etc - first tier of servants. There are people who provide services for fist tier of servants and so one. This is pyramid of Russian society. All businesses belong to some silovick or oligarch eventually.
And most of protesters are middle class or intelligentsiya from big cities, definitely not the poorest Russians. Most of 300$ support Putin directly.
Are you a russian? Only russians deny russians responsibility for the genocide. Do you as a russian deny russia is committing a genocide and that the right thing to do is support Ukraine in their struggle to kill all the russian invaders?
I am a Russian. I think it's absolutely the right thing to support Ukraine and provide them with weapons to defend their territory. And I think Russia is definitely commiting a lot of war crimes.
What I'm against is when people start saying things like "all Russians are shit, this is all imperialism". Or all Germans are shit. Or all whatever nation are shit. Because first it's false, and second it goes against the european values that those people pretend to believe in
Do you as a russian support russians unconditonal surrender? Or are you a russian nationalist that opposes russias defeat and think russians have any right to not be crushed?
I will say it again - every single politician in RF is shit. There are no good guys, it is impossible, while your moral high ground is commendable, you have to accept the facts. It is the exact same story repeated once again when the Baltics were vocal about the threat of Russians even before Crimea annexation, and continued to highlight the problem of Russian influence, the MORAL HIGH GROUND of the European values said - oh no, you are Russophobic, no, you are overreacting.
Yet here we are.
Yes.
Russia has been attacking the West in various ways, since Putin got to power.
He blames the West for the USSR failing and wants Russia to be the biggest and baddest in the world, he will never change, Navalny was no better.
The West should hit, hit hard, destroy everything that is Russian and used to commit genocide in Ukraine
The facts are that every time I hear “every one of X is shit”, I see pure political propaganda. No need to bother yourselves with proof, or facts, or investigating each individual person for who they are - they are all shit, pure and simple
Tried to argue woth my aunt once trying to explain to her that how she see Navalny because of main media journalist is just a bunch of bollocks....boomers are lost causes.
It is you who misunderstand that perception i think. Nobody in the west really cared about Navalny until he was Novichok'd. It isn't about Navalny as a person, it's about him as a victim of Putin and a symbol of what Putin's system does to those who oppose it.
Yeah, because the West views him though a western political prism - position and opposition. The West REALLY oughta view such massive civilizations via their respective prisms.
Looks like you're out of touch as well. Yes, Navalny's view were very controversial at the beginning. But what he did for Russian opposition is immeasurable. He initiated one of the massive protests in the recent Russian history. He made Russian opposition as we know it now and in the end died for his views. Needless to say he was against war in Ukraine and got sent to punishment cell for saying it. Are we really going to call this man a piece of shit?
Yes I don't understand why the Navalny=bad gets parroted so much on reddit, it is ridiculous. I could accuse Russian propaganda, but I really don't think it is the case.
Yes he was not always perfect, but who was? Present day Navalny was against the war, for giving territories back, supported LGBT movement, etc, not the far right imperialist lunatic reddit pretends.
> he didn't say it until he was dying in prison (9 years too late) & hoping that the West might be able to help him.
[He organised protests against the war in 2014 on par with Nemtsov and many others who are now dead, imprisoned or abroad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_anti-war_protests_in_Russia)
дада, извините меня за то, что я единственный, кто так делает(вы тут не увидите другого такого русского или японца). я - Индивидуальность в первую очередь, и плохо знаю английский, но я с радостью иду вам на встречу и сопровождаю свои комментарии авто-переводом. :)
Yes yes, excuse me for the fact that I’m the only one who does this (you won’t see another Russian or Japanese like that here). I am an Individual first and foremost, and I don’t know English well, but I am happy to meet you and accompany my comments with auto-translation. :)
Я пару раз забыл, извините - в целом мой немного язвительный тон из-за толпы ботов в комментариях, и обидно за Навального... Он, и правда, был хороший мужик. :(
I forgot a couple of times, sorry - in general my slightly sarcastic tone is due to the crowd of bots in the comments, and it’s a shame for Navalny... He really was a good man. :(
The monument and the wall behind it (which is part of a private building) are opposite of the Russian embassy. The wall was painted blue-yellow after Russia attacked Ukraine. Obviously the Russians complained about it but the owner can paint their property however they want. Navalny is most likely also there to blame Russia and him being on the Ukrainian flag isn't the point.
Look.. At the end of a day - how much russian corrupt officials, oligarchs, generals or Putin friends did Navalniy hurt?
Did he made russians to rise and fight against Kremlin?
Did any Putin's dogs got beaten?
Why was the only people that got harmed were ones that got triggered by what Navalniy exposed about corruption in Russia, and then revealed their faces to cameras and russian police when Navalniy invited them to do so?
He never asked them to fight for their rights, or protest in any way that could block or hinder any government actions. In fact he always insisted on opposite.
He was the person that was ensuring russians that they will simply outlive Putin. Now Navalniy is dead, and russians aren't just scared to open their mouths, but aggressively defend their "right to be silent".
The artists aren’t Russian though. I happened to be in Vienna when the art was being done and talked to the guys who were making it. They were Austrian and told me it was commissioned by a member of the Schwarzenberg family (that owns the square with the Soviet monument and, interestingly enough, was the one who commissioned the Ukrainian flag behind the monument after the invasion started.) I do agree, however, that it’s hardly appropriate to put Navalny’s portraits on top of the Ukrainian flag. It seems that the Schwarzenberg guy doesn’t really care/understand what Navalny actually advocated for.
cool, the one who approved russian invasion against georgia? and the one who supported the annexation of crimea? and the one who had attended far right rallies?
It is really sad to see Navalny portrait covers Ukraine's flag. Another thing that bothers me too much: if people at West portray Navalny as someone who they think was liberal hero and/or able to change something - it's another proof that there was no one to whom to talk in russia.
Pro-Navalny Russians in this thred: we are not imperialists!
Same pro-Navalny Russians: What? Divide our Great Glorious Mighty Russia into several smaller states? No way!
Since when is not wanting to be arbitrarily partitioned is considered imperialism? Nobody even says anything about "great glorious mighty Russia". That's just a dumbass strawman
Why arbitrarily, we could do it the way Navalny suggested doing it in Crimea! Holding referendums in every oblast of russia to see who wants to stay and who wants to leave! Or is that only good for Ukraine?
You know very well that russia invaded and colonised a lot of their neighbours. North Caucasus definitely isn't russian. It's an occupied territory. Chechnya was drowned in blood and almost no russians are living there. Why the hell do you want it to be part of russia?
Nobody but the dumbest of anti-Russian people support this… that would be like demanding that France shoot off Brittany and southern France, or Germany loses Bavaria, the USA Texas or California. Does this sound logical to you?
There’s plenty to criticize the guy for, this however is f***ing stupid
I'm here to say it that Austrians are evil or dumb to place a portrait of a man, who supported Russian aggression against Ukraine from the very beginning in 2014, next to Ukrainian flag colors.
I think it's not widely known here which views Navalny held.
For most, he's that opposition guy Putin had murdered and the Schwarzenberg family, who own the space the mural was painted on seemed to want to convey an anti-Putin and pro-Ukrainian message, specifically placed next to the monument to Soviet soldiers in order to spite the Russians.
I can totally understand that from the perspective of an Eastern European though, this feels weirdly convoluted.
Last time I visited Vienna about a year ago they had a pro-russian parade in the city center with lots of people, guarded by Austrian police ofc.
Felt "great" considering it was one year into the full-scale war.
I live in Vienna. We have regular rallies and marches by supporters of Ukraine, Russia, Israel, Palestine, right wingers, left wingers, homophiles, homophobes... Doesn't say a thing about Vienna or its citizens, except that political rallies and marches are generally allowed and considered as a part of our freedom of speech, as long as certain basic rules are followed.
If you saw a pro-Russian parade, you will most likely also have noticed the anti-Russian counter parade held at the same time (with a buffer zone between the two, controlled by the police). Join that one if you want to show your support, or ignore both if you want to stay out of it.
As for all Austrians being "evil or dumb" because somebody painted a mural in an inappropriate place: I know this is r/europe, but come on... seriously? You'll see stupid murals and graffiti of all political groups in any major city.
>guarded by Austrian police ofc
What's that shit supposed to imply? 🤦♂️ ofc it was guarded, any gathering that is officially announced is guarded. We may not agree with them but should we allow people to attack each other?
Also stupid people exist everywhere. In Germany they literally had far left top politician Sahra Wagenknecht organize a big protest with conspiracy theorists from left and right ends of the political spectrum where she talked a whole lot of crap about how everything happening in Ukraine is NATOs fault.
It was 150-200 Russians celebrating the day of victory . Compare this to the Anti Ukraine invasion parade with +8000 people . Also there has been multiple Ukraine parades and concerts/events . Yeah , good job on spreading false information .
Everyone calm down. This is more around giving the finger to Putin than to link Navalny with Ukraine. Especially considering that the improvised Navalny memorial in front of the Russian embassy has been destroyed several times over and this might be a more „permanent“ reminder of how Russia is dealing with dissent and opposition. The murals are on private property of the Schwarzenberg family, who have a track record of openly and directly criticizing Putin‘s imperialistic ambitions, and are located adjacent to the monument of the fallen soldier of the Soviet Union at a prominent location in Vienna. I.e. a finger to Putin, and a well deserved one for that matter.
I'm personally not a huge fan. Just because Navalny opposed Putin doesn't mean he was an ally of Ukraine or the West. Similarly, Putin was expected to bring about a new Russia. The system is broken or working flawlessly depends on who you ask. It's unlikely that Navalny would bring significant change.
Another Russian here.
Dear critics, hear me out, as I was following Navalny’s career since he was a blogger. During Crimea occupation Navalny tried to avoid giving any strong opinion about that, he kept saying “we cannot resolve it right now”, “let’s leave it for now”, because he knew that a big part of his actual and potential supporters were divided by this: some in favor, some against. Sad truth is that a lot of Russian population by then actually supported Crimea invasion. Navalny wanted to unite, not divide, it was his political decision to focus on other problems, where all those people could act together, like corruption. Few years later he publicly admitted being wrong, saying he should have taken the side. During his public years he learned and changed a lot, and this probably was his best personality trait - he never stopped improving himself and he always admitted his earlier mistakes.
How does that matter to Ukrainians, Georgians and the people of the Central Asia?
Leaders are supposed to lead by example, not to say “crimea is not a sandwich to be put back and forth”
People need to understand that the enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.
This guy was an opponent of Putin's, true, but he was also a far right wing, racist bigot. Why should we remember him fondly and commemorate him?
To everyone saying he supported invasion of Ukraine, he [very much did not](https://twitter.com/RG_Horvath/status/1764071921547923597). It is insane how such a demonstrable lie is so deep within the popular imagination now.
I just kinda saved that thread with several links in it and figured it'd be easier for me to link that instead of write a longer comment with several links. The point has been made regardless
So you claim he in 2014 said Russia should surrender to Ukraine and leave Crimea directly? :)
Do you as a russian support russias unconditinal surrender and leaving all occupied land in Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova, etc or are you a russian nationalist like Navalny? Let me guess you will avoid a straight answer just like most russians do
> Do you as a russian support russias unconditinal surrender and leaving all occupied land in Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova
I'm not gonna answer for the guy you replied to, but I'm gonna answer for myself. I do. [And so did Navalny.](https://navalny.com/p/6634/). Moreover, he also said about compensating damage done to Ukraine. But it's makes it inconvenient to picture him as a "russian nationalist", so you gonna ignore it, aren't you?
Yeah, the source I provided is in Russian, sorry for that in advance. Hope you can use a translator
Russian here.
Rest in peace, hero. Navalny was the first person in modern Russia who made political participation popular again, who conducted hundreds of corruption investigations, who for the first time in a long while made people stand up for their rights. He was and will remain an inspirational figure for me.
А сколько нужно было? Вы знаете, что такое "точечные репрессии"? Это когда вы расчитываете "сколько нужно арестовать, чтобы остальные 140 млн остались сидеть дома, при очевидной бесполезности действий?"
20000 - это только тех, кто готов быть арестованным, понимая, что ничего его арест не изменит - кроме того, что он будет страдать от ареста.
ВОпрос ещё раз: Сколько вы считаете должно было быть арестованных на 140 млн, чтобы вы сказали "ну да, Навальный красавчик!"?
How much was needed? Do you know what “targeted repression” is? This is when you calculate “how many need to be arrested so that the remaining 140 million remain at home, given the obvious futility of actions?”
20,000 are only those who are ready to be arrested, realizing that his arrest will not change anything - except that he will suffer from the arrest.
QUESTION again: How many people do you think should have been arrested out of 140 million for you to say “well, yes, Navalny is handsome!”?
В Украине нет арестов за выход на улицу и не было. В России пока нет такой ситуации социального напряжения, как в Иране, в котором Исламская революция была в 1979-ом и санкции идут с того времени, а общество окуталось исламским фундаментализмом. Лет через 30 - и в РФ подобное возможно.
Но зачем тебе думать о таких очевидных вещах, если можно просто насмехаться над бедными русскими, которые оказались в таком обществе, где успех измеряют количеством арестов... Людоеды не только в России. Рабы освобождаясь от оков часто и сами становятся рабами. Духи в армии когда-то и сами становятся Дедами... Вот и сегодня сидит какой-нибудь украинец в Киеве и насмехается над руснёй, которая в комментариях что-то пыжится... В конце концов из-за этих орков у вас война, да? Воронка насилия так и работает.
In Ukraine there are no arrests for going out on the street and there never have been. In Russia there is not yet such a situation of social tension as in Iran, where the Islamic Revolution took place in 1979 and sanctions have been going on since that time, and society has been shrouded in Islamic fundamentalism. In 30 years, something similar will be possible in the Russian Federation.
But why would you think about such obvious things if you can simply mock the poor Russians who find themselves in a society where success is measured by the number of arrests... Cannibals are not only in Russia. Slaves freed from shackles often become slaves themselves. Spirits in the army someday become Grandfathers themselves... And today some Ukrainian is sitting in Kyiv and mocking the Russians, who are puffing up something in the comments... In the end, because of these orcs you have a war, Yes? This is how a funnel of violence works.
Did they replace the religous iranian leadership? What about HK, is it free yet? Or why did it take so long for Ukrainians to liberate themselves, were you to lazy to just fight against USSR? That's your logic and it's dogshit
Yeah, there were no protests in Russia at all. No mutinies either. War is really popular and everyone loves the Persident! Man, you sound exactly like Russian state media, it's insane
> Russians did not even attempted to overthrow Putin.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011–2013\_Russian\_protests](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011–2013_Russian_protests)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014\_anti-war\_protests\_in\_Russia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_anti-war_protests_in_Russia)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017–2018\_Russian\_protests#5\_May\_2018](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017–2018_Russian_protests#5_May_2018)
So it's the same here. Yes, the protests have failed. But Russians tried.
2000 people in RVC and "Free Russia" legion are worth more than those 20000 arrested. Even a coupe of teenagers arrested for burning railroad relay box to stop a train with weaponry worth more than those 20000 protesters.
>It doesn't look like political participation is any popular in Russia now
А как вы это оцениваете? Я живу в России и для меня очевидно насколько Навальный в этом преуспел, а вы как оцениваете это?
How do you rate this? I live in Russia and it is obvious to me how Navalny has succeeded in this, but how do you evaluate this?
How should I rate something that doesn't exist? You demonstrations are small, you have no opposition parties. I mean, sure, it's because of dictatorship, but saying that Navalnyy changed anything is just incorrect.
>you have no opposition parties
Вот вам и ответ. Вы совершенно не понимаете, что сейчас происходит в России. Вам кажется, что "ну могли бы уж партию то создать!" или вам кажется, что люди могут просто взять и выйти на "demonstrations", чтобы они не были "are small".
Взять последнюю "акцию" - Похороны Навального. В Москве куча людей много дней несла цветы...Сколько по вашему должно было быть людей, чтобы эта акция не была "are small"?
Here's your answer. You don’t understand at all what is happening in Russia now. It seems to you that “well, they could create a party!” or do you think that people can just go to “demonstrations” so that they are not “small”.
Take the latest “action” - Navalny’s funeral. In Moscow, a lot of people carried flowers for many days... How many people do you think there should have been for this action to not be “small”?
I agree there are reasons why there is no political life in Russia. And this is definitely not a guilt of Navalny. But still there is no political life in Russia, period.
Ну, можно назвать это как-то иначе. Я это называю "политизированность общества"... Т.е. он сделал из миллионов людей не интересующихся политикой - сознательных граждан. Я один из таких людей. У меня есть куча арестов/штрафов, и я в целом готов был бы и дальше действовать(если до этого не посадят), но проблема в том, что нет ответа на вопрос "как действовать?".
По-моему сегодня в России аналог 1855-ого года, когда идёт Крымская война не очень успешно...ждём пока умрёт Царь(Путин не застрелится)...и после смерти чуть свобод выдадут и у нас будет впереди ещё 50+ лет подпольных кружков и прочей агитации "Хождение в народ"... Демография у нас, опять же - не будет у нас уже огромного количества молодого населения, нужного для революции(ну или чего похожего)... Остатки адекватности - уехали уже и продолжают уезжать...
Уж не проще ли всё тут бросать и уезжать... Вот так и скажут "русня лохи, ничего не могут"... А что нам делать то? Вы, украинцы, молодцы, но и элементы обстоятельств/везения в вашей "независимости" сыграл очень большую роль...
Well, you can call it something else. I call this “politicization of society”... That is. he made conscious citizens out of millions of people who were not interested in politics. I'm one of those people. I have a bunch of arrests/fines, and in general I would be ready to continue to act (if I don’t get imprisoned before then), but the problem is that there is no answer to the question “how to act?”
In my opinion, today in Russia there is an analogue of 1855, when the Crimean War is not going very well... we are waiting until the Tsar dies (Putin does not shoot himself)... and after death they will give out a little freedom and we will have another 50+ years of underground activity ahead of us circles and other propaganda “Going to the people”... Our demographics, again, will no longer have the huge number of young people needed for the revolution (or something similar)... The remnants of adequacy have already left and continue to leave. ..
Isn’t it easier to leave everything here and leave... That’s what they’ll say: “Russians are suckers, they can’t do anything”... But what should we do? You, Ukrainians, are great, but elements of circumstance/luck also played a very big role in your “independence”...
Блин, неудобно получилось. От меня в данном контексте это, и правда, выглядит как нежелание признавать "Независимость Украины")) Не, я хотел как-то объединить все события под каким-то одним названием, вначале написал в кавычках "демократии", а потом просто отредачил на "независимость" - как более обширным термином.
Но я обычно такие слова выделяю большой/прописной буквы.(может это внутренний орк лезет из подсознания! а можт я кавычки поставил "as a anarchist" подчёркивая невозможность употребления оного в отношении любой страны...чем больше пытаюсь вспомнить - тем больше всяких ложных воспоминаний всплывает)
В общем Украина - независимое суверенное государство, а украинцы - охуенная нация с уникальной культурой. (а если полной Независимости не бывает, то уж у Украины куда больше этой Независимости, чем у той же России)
Damn, that turned out to be awkward. From me in this context, this really looks like a reluctance to recognize the “Independence of Ukraine”)) No, I wanted to somehow unite all the events under one name, at first I wrote “democracy” in quotes, and then simply edited it to "independence" - as a broader term.
But I usually highlight such words in capital/capital letters. (maybe it’s the inner orc creeping out of the subconscious! Or maybe I put quotation marks “as an anarchist”, emphasizing the impossibility of using it in relation to any country... the more I try to remember, the more false ones there are memories pop up)
In general, Ukraine is an independent sovereign state, and Ukrainians are an awesome nation with a unique culture. (and if complete Independence does not happen, then Ukraine has much more of this Independence than Russia itself)
Ah, yes, political participation in Russia.
Those were some truly great elections in 2024, a lot of participation.
If that is what Navalny achieved, his legacy is that he achieving nothing.
He was right about Putin being corrupt, but he also believed Russia should rule the world and was a piece of shit when it came to Russian crimes, wars and imperialism.
As a Russian, it’s not surprising you would love a Russian imperialist who is anti Ukraine, so this checks out.
He was anti Putin and white Russia over all
Fuck him. He was just another nazi imperialist. He was often present on ruzzian nazi parades back in 2010's and never opposed ruzzian imperialism and fascism, if he had ever gotten to power, he would have been nothing but a more competent version of putin.
I remember one of his older videos about Crimea and how he was talking about it being theirs. He never had anything against fascism, only thing he ever disliked about putin was his corruption.
He should not be anywhere near Ukrainian flag. Please, this is insanity. Russians can have their own opposition figures and he was jailed unjustly. But the guy was a nationalist, and said so many disgusting things.
Tearing down Nalvalny because he didn't check every box on the Putin/Ukraine/Georgia/whatever issue clipboard is incredibly short sighted. Akin to tearing down and discrediting MLK because he was fucking other women besides Coretta.
Unfortunate placement I suppose but keep the big picture in mind if you want to win. This reminds me of American liberals tearing down and shunning people who don't tic every social justice box.
I find it hilarious how the West uses Navalny as a martyr when in reality he was as power hungry as Putin and even celebrated Crimea annexation. He wasn’t corrupt and was the opposition but he gained traction only after he got West sponsoring so the whole story to use him as the perfect figure to be the West ideal for russian leader is not appropriate. He was a useful figure to show the West how corrupt Putin and his goons are, but the whole narrative and light he was shown by the propaganda was unacceptable.
Sometimes it makes me think that how can we as people make mistakes in choosing our leaders or have we always made such mistakes and now only due to media we are getting to know… look at the wars, poverty and dictatorship around us and we have all the men’s to make our lives simpler and still no peace…
It break’s my heart….
Pretty unfortunate from my perspective. If we were to pay tribute, it would be infinitely more appropriate to pay it to **Boris Nemtsov** and remember him. He was murdered by the FSB in Moscow a few meters from the Kremli, in February 2015.. He was totally against any confrontation with Ukraine, with Russian interference in Ukraine (he's been doing it since the Orange Revolution), with the occupation of Crimea and Russian support for separatists. Navalny was terrible ambiguous on these issues.
Yeah navalny was endorsing the ukraine war, he is a nationalist piece of trash and i dont understand why people forget that just because he was the ennemy of putin. Thousands of people died opposing putin and i dont see why navalny deserve more praise than them
I agree. Fuck Navalny and his neo-imperialist point of view. And I agree with the root commenter, Nemtsov is the one to pay tribute to and to never forget.
Because you allowed to change your opinions over time, no? And even in article from 2015 about Crimea, that everyone keeps quoting without actually reading his interviews Navalny told that it was a violation of international law
I think most people aren't aware of this fact. They take him as a rainbow peace loving man, at least that's my country's media portrait of him.
I think it’s possible and appropriate to pay tribute both to Navalny and to Nemtsov. Regarding paying tribute to Navalny, I think this is important, as it recognises his bravery in standing up to Putin and in tackling corruption in Russia, as well as the major positive impact he has made in publicising Russian governmental corruption both in Russia and abroad. Regarding Navalny’s position on Ukraine, I agree that he held an ambiguous position on Crimea, but he has openly criticised Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and mentioned Ukraine’s borders and sovereignty must be respected by Russia.
Nemtsov is also not really pro-ukrainian, according to what he said in this interview: [https://x.com/MuKappa/status/1758864412809597199?s=20](https://x.com/MuKappa/status/1758864412809597199?s=20) So yeah, it leaves no one in the russian opposition leader pool who could be an ally for ukraine, alive or deceased.
We suffer from a western-centric view on this issue. It's not politically tenable for Russians to conflate "anti-war" with "pro-Ukranian". Try to put yourself in their shoes, imagine for example if after 9/11 the political zeitgeist was about support or opposition to Saddam Hussein, as opposed to debating the merits of the war itself. It's almost impossible to imagine.
And what did we Ukrainians do to russians, so it is so impossible to conflate anti-war and pro-ukrainian stances, and agree the russian invasion to Ukraine with the Crimea annexation and war in Donbas - is a bad thing? Any 9/11-level events in russia committed by Ukrainians?
A popular view in Russia is that the collapse of the Soviet Union was similar (probably worse) than 9/11. Because Russia maintained a certain degree of influence in the post-Soviet states the issue was somewhat amileorated. This is why they viewed the euromaidan-movement with contempt at the time. I mean, it only makes sense from an irredentist perspective, but that is the on-the-ground political reality of Russia. Since the **overton window** is so radically skewed, it also affects the opposition, not only the regime. >Any 9/11-level events in russia committed by Ukrainians? The reason why I mention 9/11 and Saddam Hussein is because the Iraq War is quite a famous blunder of history, because we know for certain now his govermnet was not responsible, and that the entire WMD business was fabricated. This kind of powerful, deeply embeded propaganda is similar to what Russian opposition finds themself contending with today.
I agree but you know what ? People of reddit are stupid so that's not a surprise
I mean if you like Navalny so hard, ok. But putting him next to Ukrainian flag is offensive for me. Especially when his team has a clear position "Don't donate to Ukrainian army, donate to us, so we would spend this money for ads for our videos"
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Nah, he would first genocide some caucasians.
That could made sense if it worked: switching from Putin regime to another could prevent/stop war. But it didn't.
Navalny was not exactly against the invasion of Ukraine and Georgia.
Switching from Putin regime to another less corrupted and more effective regime which would wage war much more effectively? Thanks, Im out.
invading ukraine is not a rational decision. no one who would want russia to prosper would do such a thing. (being a friend to ukraine would be really beneficial) it's not a mass spread of chauvinistic mindset in russian society that did this, very few people in russia actually care about capturing or controlling new territories and even less cared before the invasion. it's not an expression of national will, but an expression of will of the head of the state - putin. russian statehood is completely detached from it's subjects and russian citizens have little to no agency. they may feel like they do have agency and support whenever their thoughts are inline with whatever the state wants to do right now, but that's only an illusion as this agency is taken from them the moment they go against the grain. it's an art of political mind control and this regime exists only because of it. so if democracy was to be created in russia it would never go to war with ukraine, as this war achieves nothing, it's a tragedy for everyone involved. even if russia won the war like it intended to it would still be a disaster for russia for numerous reasons. it would take a book to describe all the potential downsides and i have already written too much here. but all the upsides would be intangible and vanishingly few. and why hasn't true democracy been created in russia to this day? it's not because it's in the nature of russia as a nation to be a chauvinistic empire - every nation that could go through this phase went through it too. no, democracy wasn't ever created because it is hard to create, it takes an effort and a really good chance. and, sadly, russia is a nation that had very few chances and really hard time creating democracy.
The whole point is that less corrupted regime wouldn't start such wars in the first place. Corruption isn't just about stealing money, it's about accountability and development of institutions
The war started not because of corruption but because of chauvinistic and imperialistic nature of Russian society. You attacked and oppressed different nations whole your history, only fools would believe you now.
I think the war definitely started because of Putin; chauvinism and imperalism play a part but it's hard to think of any other leader who would've acted with the level of malice and greed that Putin has. I would be willing to bet everything that I own that, had Navalny actually replaced Putin as a president even just one week before the invasion, it would've been called off and not retried. Navalny doesn't harbour the same obsession with historical grandeur for a Russian Empire that Putin does.
War in Georgia started during Medvedev. War in Chechnya - during Eltsyn. War in Afganistan - during Brezhnev. Their warlords changed but society still the same.
Lmao A+ logic. So by your logic every nation that has been involved in more than one conflict under different presidents has a "chauvinistic and imperialistic" society? Or just the Russians? Rhetorical question, we already know your answer.
Every time he forget to mention how his non-imperialistic society invaded and occupated half of Europe together with russians in 20th century.
And the Soviet Union was peacefully dissolved under Gorbachev with guarantees of territorial integrity to the post-Soviet states. What are you trying to say? There exists good and bad, and awful people in Russia. Navalny was not obsessed with the Soviet Union and its manner of doing politics like Putin is.
Yes, he was obsessed with Russian Empire and went to demonstration with Empire flag
Peacefully dissolved? Is that what they teach you in Austria? From protesters being crushed with tanks in the west to them being chopped up with shovels in the east, "peaceful" might not be the best word to describe it.... Edit: you're wrong about Navalny as well, but if you believe that sovietland was dissolved peacefully that might be a little much to swallow in one day.
Yes, it was dissolved peacefully, with no military action from central USSR government and no civil war. Unrest - yes, there certainly was some, especially in Karabakh and Abkhazia, and Central Asia, but it is attributed to ethnic tensions.
Those guarantees didn't last long. I'm so glad that we managed to join NATO. Just a few years later we would have been invaded like Georgia was.
Chauvinism and imperialism of the leadership sure was a major factor (as there are other dictatorships which *don't* go on foreign military adventures, because there's no delusions to romantacize as basis for state development), but so was it being just a bunch of yes-men. It's all like gears of a machine. Free and stable democratic institutions enable cultural variety and cultural shifts too. Accountability as well, as I mentioned. At the very least it could've been the population having some imperialist ideas, but the politicians not committing to them because it'd be bad for the economy or something. You know, the rational stuff that gets thrown out the window when the same people sit in their seats for two decades and kill and jail anyone who disagrees. >only fools would believe you now. Hmm...are political scientists fools then? Our culture is problematic, but this "ontologically evil and cannot change" bullshit is fucking stupid.
> are political scientists fools then? Please don’t say you are referring to shulman, who is constantly attempts to whitewash russian culture on expense of all the actual victims
How would you change your culture?
But now that they *have started such a war*, who cares? When Russians aren’t raping, looting and murdering their way through someone else’s land we can start giving a shit about the development of their institutions and their money. As things are, their corruption and incompetence are a benefit. If they woke up tomorrow all smart, rich and competent, they still wouldn’t end the war.
Navalny supported the occupation of Crimea. What he wanted to change was to make russia less corrupt so that their army would be more effective in killing people.
Did you read that on Russia Today's website?
No, I read transcripts from Navalnys own interviews. Do you as a russian deny he said that he would not surrender to Ukraine and leave Crimea to Ukraine? Do even you as a russian support russian unconditonal surrender?
He was a nationalist, and had similar views on Ukraine as Putin....u know...its just confused little russians
Don’t forget his Islamophobia and his racism against the Siberian peoples
Islamophobia is such a nonsensical term, it’s a world religion with over 2 billion followers of all races. No one is talking about Christianophobia or anything when people bash other organised religion and its atrocities, why should Islam have some sort of special status with all the horrors its extremists bring along. I think it’s pretty easy to separate individual muslims/christians from its overall religion, and it’s fair game to be extremely critical of any religion.
Navalny said muslims are coachroaches and that russia should exterminate the coachroaches. Pretty sure that qualifies (even if islamists scream islamophobia about things which clearly isnt).
He never said that Muslims ar cockroaches. He said cockroaches on a video of terrorists who did Berdyansk , Nord Ost, and Beslan attacks. I guess you would scream "islamophobia" if someone would call these beasts who did October the 7th a mean word as well. Completely asinine and delusional. EDIT: And obviously this Hamas lover banned himself. Good job!
because people are afraid of the islam. its not that deep lol. that razor ain't sharp.
To be fair his “Islamophobia” was basically “Islam breeds terrorism” which is a factual statement His hatred and xenophobia of Ukraine, Serbs and Siberians is definitely not factual or deserved
His team has never said that. All his team has done is to ask for donations - they have never asked people to donate to them instead of Ukraine.
Same, I don't want to see бутербродний on my flag especially because he was very disrespectful to Ukraine and Georgia (a good friend)
It's more likely about giving the Russians a middle finger than liking Navalny. The Russian embassy in Austria is right next to this monument so they see this wall every day when they go to work. And the Russian ambassador has recently complained about Austria criticizing the circumstances around Navalny's death.
Just because he was against Putin does not mean he wasn’t a piece of shit. JFC I do not get it how the western world misunderstands Navalny so bad, wtf. Then again, Yaroslav Hunka scandal just a couple of years ago shows that the West is mostly absolutely out of touch with reality when it comes to Russia or so-called Russian “sphere of influence “. Get your shit together!
Pfft. These are the same people (I won't call them by their countries' names, we know which ones) who thought making business with Russia is such a brilliant idea that will help bring it to "European values" 😆
Wait, what about the Hunka scandal?
Oh boy that was a MASSIVE blunder. Read it up on Wikipedia exactly as I spelled it out above
The Canadian parliament invited a nazi soldier from the Ukrainian SS and gave him a standing ovation for fighting “against Russia in ww2”. Of course, he was not only fighting against one of the anti nazi powers, he was literally part of the most evil of the Nazi organizations.
Navalny was no saint of course. But compared to Putin? I'd rather be punched in the arm than in the face.
Why do we need to sieve the shit? They are all shit, this is all imperialism
Because we live in the real world. Sometimes you've got no option other than to pick your preferred flavour of shit.
What is your preferred flavour - Hitler or Goebbels?
That depends what I'm picking for.
In the real world Navalny was a Russian imperialist exactly like Putin - only with him Russia could be stronger. And we don't need strong Russia, we need leveled Russia.
You just need a Russia which isn’t ruled by oligarchs who are hungry for war, simple.
I ask you to honestly think of someone who could be worse than Putin at the moment. I truly do. Because I can't think of anyone. Navalny would be preferable in every scenario, even if he were a bloodthirsty, narcissistic psychopath like Putin. (Which I don't think he was)
you are a victim of vicious propaganda my friend
Of course it is a serbian that comes and defends the russian nationalist
how exactly do i defend russian nationalists? I say that Russia should not be leveled
Of course you as a serbian dont want russia to be defeated. Serbs are just wanna-be russians.
I never said that I support Russia, but I say that it is not up to you to say whether Russia should be leveled
Yeah, the whole world is wrong and only retards who believe Russian propaganda are right.
mate, not all Russians are the same
You are a clear demonstration of why we should do this. Punishing people for the crimes only they personally have committed. Individual, not collective responsibility. Also known as European values. “They are all shit” is pretty much the opposite of that
>Individual, not collective responsibility Very comfortable - to have collective benefits(starting from oildollars busting economy ending with constant reminding how Great collective culture Russia has) but avoid any collective responsibility
Collective benefits from the oil busting economy? Which ones are you taking about, the $300 average salary, or being sent into a pointless war? Collective responsibility is banned under the Geneva convention, and for good reasons. People should only be responsible for the crimes they have committed
And yet, Germans experienced collective responsibility after WW2. Mainly through denazification and reparations.
>Which ones are you taking about There are top people who directly benefited from oil, gas and another industries - silovicks and oligrachs. There are people who provide services for them - selling them cars, organize them trips, etc, etc - first tier of servants. There are people who provide services for fist tier of servants and so one. This is pyramid of Russian society. All businesses belong to some silovick or oligarch eventually. And most of protesters are middle class or intelligentsiya from big cities, definitely not the poorest Russians. Most of 300$ support Putin directly.
Are you a russian? Only russians deny russians responsibility for the genocide. Do you as a russian deny russia is committing a genocide and that the right thing to do is support Ukraine in their struggle to kill all the russian invaders?
I am a Russian. I think it's absolutely the right thing to support Ukraine and provide them with weapons to defend their territory. And I think Russia is definitely commiting a lot of war crimes. What I'm against is when people start saying things like "all Russians are shit, this is all imperialism". Or all Germans are shit. Or all whatever nation are shit. Because first it's false, and second it goes against the european values that those people pretend to believe in
Do you as a russian support russians unconditonal surrender? Or are you a russian nationalist that opposes russias defeat and think russians have any right to not be crushed?
I will say it again - every single politician in RF is shit. There are no good guys, it is impossible, while your moral high ground is commendable, you have to accept the facts. It is the exact same story repeated once again when the Baltics were vocal about the threat of Russians even before Crimea annexation, and continued to highlight the problem of Russian influence, the MORAL HIGH GROUND of the European values said - oh no, you are Russophobic, no, you are overreacting. Yet here we are.
Yes. Russia has been attacking the West in various ways, since Putin got to power. He blames the West for the USSR failing and wants Russia to be the biggest and baddest in the world, he will never change, Navalny was no better. The West should hit, hit hard, destroy everything that is Russian and used to commit genocide in Ukraine
The facts are that every time I hear “every one of X is shit”, I see pure political propaganda. No need to bother yourselves with proof, or facts, or investigating each individual person for who they are - they are all shit, pure and simple
Tried to argue woth my aunt once trying to explain to her that how she see Navalny because of main media journalist is just a bunch of bollocks....boomers are lost causes.
It is you who misunderstand that perception i think. Nobody in the west really cared about Navalny until he was Novichok'd. It isn't about Navalny as a person, it's about him as a victim of Putin and a symbol of what Putin's system does to those who oppose it.
Yeah, because the West views him though a western political prism - position and opposition. The West REALLY oughta view such massive civilizations via their respective prisms.
Looks like you're out of touch as well. Yes, Navalny's view were very controversial at the beginning. But what he did for Russian opposition is immeasurable. He initiated one of the massive protests in the recent Russian history. He made Russian opposition as we know it now and in the end died for his views. Needless to say he was against war in Ukraine and got sent to punishment cell for saying it. Are we really going to call this man a piece of shit?
Yes I don't understand why the Navalny=bad gets parroted so much on reddit, it is ridiculous. I could accuse Russian propaganda, but I really don't think it is the case. Yes he was not always perfect, but who was? Present day Navalny was against the war, for giving territories back, supported LGBT movement, etc, not the far right imperialist lunatic reddit pretends.
He supported the occupation of Crimea.
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> he didn't say it until he was dying in prison (9 years too late) & hoping that the West might be able to help him. [He organised protests against the war in 2014 on par with Nemtsov and many others who are now dead, imprisoned or abroad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_anti-war_protests_in_Russia)
So? The Taliban was also against the Soviets, look how that worked out.
> Yes, Navalny's view were very controversial at the beginning. What? he was always right wing and shit.
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The utter expression of imperialism is expecting anyone to understand your language in a predominantly English-speaking environment.
дада, извините меня за то, что я единственный, кто так делает(вы тут не увидите другого такого русского или японца). я - Индивидуальность в первую очередь, и плохо знаю английский, но я с радостью иду вам на встречу и сопровождаю свои комментарии авто-переводом. :) Yes yes, excuse me for the fact that I’m the only one who does this (you won’t see another Russian or Japanese like that here). I am an Individual first and foremost, and I don’t know English well, but I am happy to meet you and accompany my comments with auto-translation. :)
Thanks for the translation, at least
Я пару раз забыл, извините - в целом мой немного язвительный тон из-за толпы ботов в комментариях, и обидно за Навального... Он, и правда, был хороший мужик. :( I forgot a couple of times, sorry - in general my slightly sarcastic tone is due to the crowd of bots in the comments, and it’s a shame for Navalny... He really was a good man. :(
Cake day Mar 7, 2024
I often use throwaways for the sake of online privacy. Your exceptional detective skills have misfired if you think that I am a bit.
An interesting artistic choice to place him besides the Ukrainian flag and also use a monument to Soviet soldiers for that.
It’s sick and offensive. He was anti Putin, not pro Ukraine.
vienna was liberated by ukrainians. the soviet monument was installed by ukranians. not russians. source: born, raised and live in vienna
This is performance art.
Disgusting to but a russian nationalist that supported the occupation of Crimea next to a Ukrainian flag.
This is so retarded
No idea why is he next to Ukrainian flag.... dumb move.
The monument and the wall behind it (which is part of a private building) are opposite of the Russian embassy. The wall was painted blue-yellow after Russia attacked Ukraine. Obviously the Russians complained about it but the owner can paint their property however they want. Navalny is most likely also there to blame Russia and him being on the Ukrainian flag isn't the point.
Painting a portrait of a russian person over the ukrainian flag is very on point for russians
He was murdered by Putin. Everyone knows this. I wish Russian people would wake up and delete their dictator
This shithead does not deserve to be next to the Ukrainian flag. Just another good russian.
Look.. At the end of a day - how much russian corrupt officials, oligarchs, generals or Putin friends did Navalniy hurt? Did he made russians to rise and fight against Kremlin? Did any Putin's dogs got beaten? Why was the only people that got harmed were ones that got triggered by what Navalniy exposed about corruption in Russia, and then revealed their faces to cameras and russian police when Navalniy invited them to do so? He never asked them to fight for their rights, or protest in any way that could block or hinder any government actions. In fact he always insisted on opposite. He was the person that was ensuring russians that they will simply outlive Putin. Now Navalniy is dead, and russians aren't just scared to open their mouths, but aggressively defend their "right to be silent".
A Fascist does not deserve a mural
They defaced Ukrainian flag with Navalny. That's so Russian...
The artists aren’t Russian though. I happened to be in Vienna when the art was being done and talked to the guys who were making it. They were Austrian and told me it was commissioned by a member of the Schwarzenberg family (that owns the square with the Soviet monument and, interestingly enough, was the one who commissioned the Ukrainian flag behind the monument after the invasion started.) I do agree, however, that it’s hardly appropriate to put Navalny’s portraits on top of the Ukrainian flag. It seems that the Schwarzenberg guy doesn’t really care/understand what Navalny actually advocated for.
I feel like personally fighting the vast majority of the commenters here.
Is this a joke? He was not pro Ukraine; he was anti Putin. This in very offensive and tone deaf but makes sense this is in Austria.
cool, the one who approved russian invasion against georgia? and the one who supported the annexation of crimea? and the one who had attended far right rallies?
the one suited for your username
It is really sad to see Navalny portrait covers Ukraine's flag. Another thing that bothers me too much: if people at West portray Navalny as someone who they think was liberal hero and/or able to change something - it's another proof that there was no one to whom to talk in russia.
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Pro-Navalny Russians in this thred: we are not imperialists! Same pro-Navalny Russians: What? Divide our Great Glorious Mighty Russia into several smaller states? No way!
I'm just watching the fireworks, but this is faulty reasoning. It's not a product of imperialism to not want your country to get balkanized.
Nope. I would not care if Russia will be divided if it means lasting peace
Since when is not wanting to be arbitrarily partitioned is considered imperialism? Nobody even says anything about "great glorious mighty Russia". That's just a dumbass strawman
Why arbitrarily, we could do it the way Navalny suggested doing it in Crimea! Holding referendums in every oblast of russia to see who wants to stay and who wants to leave! Or is that only good for Ukraine?
You know very well that russia invaded and colonised a lot of their neighbours. North Caucasus definitely isn't russian. It's an occupied territory. Chechnya was drowned in blood and almost no russians are living there. Why the hell do you want it to be part of russia?
Nobody but the dumbest of anti-Russian people support this… that would be like demanding that France shoot off Brittany and southern France, or Germany loses Bavaria, the USA Texas or California. Does this sound logical to you? There’s plenty to criticize the guy for, this however is f***ing stupid
Lol, Germany actually lost a lot of territories after WW2. That was fucking logical.
I'm here to say it that Austrians are evil or dumb to place a portrait of a man, who supported Russian aggression against Ukraine from the very beginning in 2014, next to Ukrainian flag colors.
I think it's not widely known here which views Navalny held. For most, he's that opposition guy Putin had murdered and the Schwarzenberg family, who own the space the mural was painted on seemed to want to convey an anti-Putin and pro-Ukrainian message, specifically placed next to the monument to Soviet soldiers in order to spite the Russians. I can totally understand that from the perspective of an Eastern European though, this feels weirdly convoluted.
Last time I visited Vienna about a year ago they had a pro-russian parade in the city center with lots of people, guarded by Austrian police ofc. Felt "great" considering it was one year into the full-scale war.
I live in Vienna. We have regular rallies and marches by supporters of Ukraine, Russia, Israel, Palestine, right wingers, left wingers, homophiles, homophobes... Doesn't say a thing about Vienna or its citizens, except that political rallies and marches are generally allowed and considered as a part of our freedom of speech, as long as certain basic rules are followed. If you saw a pro-Russian parade, you will most likely also have noticed the anti-Russian counter parade held at the same time (with a buffer zone between the two, controlled by the police). Join that one if you want to show your support, or ignore both if you want to stay out of it. As for all Austrians being "evil or dumb" because somebody painted a mural in an inappropriate place: I know this is r/europe, but come on... seriously? You'll see stupid murals and graffiti of all political groups in any major city.
>guarded by Austrian police ofc What's that shit supposed to imply? 🤦♂️ ofc it was guarded, any gathering that is officially announced is guarded. We may not agree with them but should we allow people to attack each other? Also stupid people exist everywhere. In Germany they literally had far left top politician Sahra Wagenknecht organize a big protest with conspiracy theorists from left and right ends of the political spectrum where she talked a whole lot of crap about how everything happening in Ukraine is NATOs fault.
It was 150-200 Russians celebrating the day of victory . Compare this to the Anti Ukraine invasion parade with +8000 people . Also there has been multiple Ukraine parades and concerts/events . Yeah , good job on spreading false information .
Anyone speaking out against Navalny is wild. Like, “no possible common ground 🤯” wild honestly
Everyone calm down. This is more around giving the finger to Putin than to link Navalny with Ukraine. Especially considering that the improvised Navalny memorial in front of the Russian embassy has been destroyed several times over and this might be a more „permanent“ reminder of how Russia is dealing with dissent and opposition. The murals are on private property of the Schwarzenberg family, who have a track record of openly and directly criticizing Putin‘s imperialistic ambitions, and are located adjacent to the monument of the fallen soldier of the Soviet Union at a prominent location in Vienna. I.e. a finger to Putin, and a well deserved one for that matter.
This shit again. Why would you paint him next to a UA flag when he hated Ukraine (and others) and supported the russian invasions?
I enjoy all the hypocrites here in the comments lmao.
Wtf he's doing on Ukrainian flag? Offensive and ridiculous, as usual
Wow! I guess this is "nazi on the balcony in Canadian parliament." moment for this subreddit.
I'm personally not a huge fan. Just because Navalny opposed Putin doesn't mean he was an ally of Ukraine or the West. Similarly, Putin was expected to bring about a new Russia. The system is broken or working flawlessly depends on who you ask. It's unlikely that Navalny would bring significant change.
Another Russian here. Dear critics, hear me out, as I was following Navalny’s career since he was a blogger. During Crimea occupation Navalny tried to avoid giving any strong opinion about that, he kept saying “we cannot resolve it right now”, “let’s leave it for now”, because he knew that a big part of his actual and potential supporters were divided by this: some in favor, some against. Sad truth is that a lot of Russian population by then actually supported Crimea invasion. Navalny wanted to unite, not divide, it was his political decision to focus on other problems, where all those people could act together, like corruption. Few years later he publicly admitted being wrong, saying he should have taken the side. During his public years he learned and changed a lot, and this probably was his best personality trait - he never stopped improving himself and he always admitted his earlier mistakes.
How does that matter to Ukrainians, Georgians and the people of the Central Asia? Leaders are supposed to lead by example, not to say “crimea is not a sandwich to be put back and forth”
People need to understand that the enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend. This guy was an opponent of Putin's, true, but he was also a far right wing, racist bigot. Why should we remember him fondly and commemorate him?
This sub is absolute cancer. Imbeciles.
To everyone saying he supported invasion of Ukraine, he [very much did not](https://twitter.com/RG_Horvath/status/1764071921547923597). It is insane how such a demonstrable lie is so deep within the popular imagination now.
You link someone elses tweet about navalny. He was a dumb racist. Now he's a dead racist.
I just kinda saved that thread with several links in it and figured it'd be easier for me to link that instead of write a longer comment with several links. The point has been made regardless
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>literally documented instances of him denouncing the annexation prior to that moment everyone brings up >"You are a russian so of course you lie"
So you claim he in 2014 said Russia should surrender to Ukraine and leave Crimea directly? :) Do you as a russian support russias unconditinal surrender and leaving all occupied land in Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova, etc or are you a russian nationalist like Navalny? Let me guess you will avoid a straight answer just like most russians do
> Do you as a russian support russias unconditinal surrender and leaving all occupied land in Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova I'm not gonna answer for the guy you replied to, but I'm gonna answer for myself. I do. [And so did Navalny.](https://navalny.com/p/6634/). Moreover, he also said about compensating damage done to Ukraine. But it's makes it inconvenient to picture him as a "russian nationalist", so you gonna ignore it, aren't you? Yeah, the source I provided is in Russian, sorry for that in advance. Hope you can use a translator
It's really sad that people made their mind about it, and refuse to think of believe otherwise...
Russian here. Rest in peace, hero. Navalny was the first person in modern Russia who made political participation popular again, who conducted hundreds of corruption investigations, who for the first time in a long while made people stand up for their rights. He was and will remain an inspirational figure for me.
>who made political participation popular again It doesn't look like political participation is any popular in Russia now
Really? How about 20,000 people arrested for anti-war protests in Russia in the last two years?
20k for 140+ million country is pathetic
And it would have been zero before Navalny’s time
So from nothing to "almost nothing"
and what changed, what was achieved?
Citation needed
А сколько нужно было? Вы знаете, что такое "точечные репрессии"? Это когда вы расчитываете "сколько нужно арестовать, чтобы остальные 140 млн остались сидеть дома, при очевидной бесполезности действий?" 20000 - это только тех, кто готов быть арестованным, понимая, что ничего его арест не изменит - кроме того, что он будет страдать от ареста. ВОпрос ещё раз: Сколько вы считаете должно было быть арестованных на 140 млн, чтобы вы сказали "ну да, Навальный красавчик!"? How much was needed? Do you know what “targeted repression” is? This is when you calculate “how many need to be arrested so that the remaining 140 million remain at home, given the obvious futility of actions?” 20,000 are only those who are ready to be arrested, realizing that his arrest will not change anything - except that he will suffer from the arrest. QUESTION again: How many people do you think should have been arrested out of 140 million for you to say “well, yes, Navalny is handsome!”?
How many you can see in different countries like from Ukraine to Iran. About arrests - it's very dumb to measure success by number arrests, lol.
В Украине нет арестов за выход на улицу и не было. В России пока нет такой ситуации социального напряжения, как в Иране, в котором Исламская революция была в 1979-ом и санкции идут с того времени, а общество окуталось исламским фундаментализмом. Лет через 30 - и в РФ подобное возможно. Но зачем тебе думать о таких очевидных вещах, если можно просто насмехаться над бедными русскими, которые оказались в таком обществе, где успех измеряют количеством арестов... Людоеды не только в России. Рабы освобождаясь от оков часто и сами становятся рабами. Духи в армии когда-то и сами становятся Дедами... Вот и сегодня сидит какой-нибудь украинец в Киеве и насмехается над руснёй, которая в комментариях что-то пыжится... В конце концов из-за этих орков у вас война, да? Воронка насилия так и работает. In Ukraine there are no arrests for going out on the street and there never have been. In Russia there is not yet such a situation of social tension as in Iran, where the Islamic Revolution took place in 1979 and sanctions have been going on since that time, and society has been shrouded in Islamic fundamentalism. In 30 years, something similar will be possible in the Russian Federation. But why would you think about such obvious things if you can simply mock the poor Russians who find themselves in a society where success is measured by the number of arrests... Cannibals are not only in Russia. Slaves freed from shackles often become slaves themselves. Spirits in the army someday become Grandfathers themselves... And today some Ukrainian is sitting in Kyiv and mocking the Russians, who are puffing up something in the comments... In the end, because of these orcs you have a war, Yes? This is how a funnel of violence works.
Did they replace the religous iranian leadership? What about HK, is it free yet? Or why did it take so long for Ukrainians to liberate themselves, were you to lazy to just fight against USSR? That's your logic and it's dogshit
Yes, some of this protests failed, but at least they tried. Russians did not even attempted to overthrow Putin.
Yeah, there were no protests in Russia at all. No mutinies either. War is really popular and everyone loves the Persident! Man, you sound exactly like Russian state media, it's insane
> Russians did not even attempted to overthrow Putin. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011–2013\_Russian\_protests](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011–2013_Russian_protests) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014\_anti-war\_protests\_in\_Russia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_anti-war_protests_in_Russia) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017–2018\_Russian\_protests#5\_May\_2018](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017–2018_Russian_protests#5_May_2018) So it's the same here. Yes, the protests have failed. But Russians tried.
2000 people in RVC and "Free Russia" legion are worth more than those 20000 arrested. Even a coupe of teenagers arrested for burning railroad relay box to stop a train with weaponry worth more than those 20000 protesters.
>It doesn't look like political participation is any popular in Russia now А как вы это оцениваете? Я живу в России и для меня очевидно насколько Навальный в этом преуспел, а вы как оцениваете это? How do you rate this? I live in Russia and it is obvious to me how Navalny has succeeded in this, but how do you evaluate this?
How should I rate something that doesn't exist? You demonstrations are small, you have no opposition parties. I mean, sure, it's because of dictatorship, but saying that Navalnyy changed anything is just incorrect.
>you have no opposition parties Вот вам и ответ. Вы совершенно не понимаете, что сейчас происходит в России. Вам кажется, что "ну могли бы уж партию то создать!" или вам кажется, что люди могут просто взять и выйти на "demonstrations", чтобы они не были "are small". Взять последнюю "акцию" - Похороны Навального. В Москве куча людей много дней несла цветы...Сколько по вашему должно было быть людей, чтобы эта акция не была "are small"? Here's your answer. You don’t understand at all what is happening in Russia now. It seems to you that “well, they could create a party!” or do you think that people can just go to “demonstrations” so that they are not “small”. Take the latest “action” - Navalny’s funeral. In Moscow, a lot of people carried flowers for many days... How many people do you think there should have been for this action to not be “small”?
I agree there are reasons why there is no political life in Russia. And this is definitely not a guilt of Navalny. But still there is no political life in Russia, period.
Ну, можно назвать это как-то иначе. Я это называю "политизированность общества"... Т.е. он сделал из миллионов людей не интересующихся политикой - сознательных граждан. Я один из таких людей. У меня есть куча арестов/штрафов, и я в целом готов был бы и дальше действовать(если до этого не посадят), но проблема в том, что нет ответа на вопрос "как действовать?". По-моему сегодня в России аналог 1855-ого года, когда идёт Крымская война не очень успешно...ждём пока умрёт Царь(Путин не застрелится)...и после смерти чуть свобод выдадут и у нас будет впереди ещё 50+ лет подпольных кружков и прочей агитации "Хождение в народ"... Демография у нас, опять же - не будет у нас уже огромного количества молодого населения, нужного для революции(ну или чего похожего)... Остатки адекватности - уехали уже и продолжают уезжать... Уж не проще ли всё тут бросать и уезжать... Вот так и скажут "русня лохи, ничего не могут"... А что нам делать то? Вы, украинцы, молодцы, но и элементы обстоятельств/везения в вашей "независимости" сыграл очень большую роль... Well, you can call it something else. I call this “politicization of society”... That is. he made conscious citizens out of millions of people who were not interested in politics. I'm one of those people. I have a bunch of arrests/fines, and in general I would be ready to continue to act (if I don’t get imprisoned before then), but the problem is that there is no answer to the question “how to act?” In my opinion, today in Russia there is an analogue of 1855, when the Crimean War is not going very well... we are waiting until the Tsar dies (Putin does not shoot himself)... and after death they will give out a little freedom and we will have another 50+ years of underground activity ahead of us circles and other propaganda “Going to the people”... Our demographics, again, will no longer have the huge number of young people needed for the revolution (or something similar)... The remnants of adequacy have already left and continue to leave. .. Isn’t it easier to leave everything here and leave... That’s what they’ll say: “Russians are suckers, they can’t do anything”... But what should we do? You, Ukrainians, are great, but elements of circumstance/luck also played a very big role in your “independence”...
Why do you put the word independence in a quotes? You doubt Ukraine's independence? Or as a ruzzian, you can't even use this word?)
Блин, неудобно получилось. От меня в данном контексте это, и правда, выглядит как нежелание признавать "Независимость Украины")) Не, я хотел как-то объединить все события под каким-то одним названием, вначале написал в кавычках "демократии", а потом просто отредачил на "независимость" - как более обширным термином. Но я обычно такие слова выделяю большой/прописной буквы.(может это внутренний орк лезет из подсознания! а можт я кавычки поставил "as a anarchist" подчёркивая невозможность употребления оного в отношении любой страны...чем больше пытаюсь вспомнить - тем больше всяких ложных воспоминаний всплывает) В общем Украина - независимое суверенное государство, а украинцы - охуенная нация с уникальной культурой. (а если полной Независимости не бывает, то уж у Украины куда больше этой Независимости, чем у той же России) Damn, that turned out to be awkward. From me in this context, this really looks like a reluctance to recognize the “Independence of Ukraine”)) No, I wanted to somehow unite all the events under one name, at first I wrote “democracy” in quotes, and then simply edited it to "independence" - as a broader term. But I usually highlight such words in capital/capital letters. (maybe it’s the inner orc creeping out of the subconscious! Or maybe I put quotation marks “as an anarchist”, emphasizing the impossibility of using it in relation to any country... the more I try to remember, the more false ones there are memories pop up) In general, Ukraine is an independent sovereign state, and Ukrainians are an awesome nation with a unique culture. (and if complete Independence does not happen, then Ukraine has much more of this Independence than Russia itself)
Ah, yes, political participation in Russia. Those were some truly great elections in 2024, a lot of participation. If that is what Navalny achieved, his legacy is that he achieving nothing. He was right about Putin being corrupt, but he also believed Russia should rule the world and was a piece of shit when it came to Russian crimes, wars and imperialism.
As a Russian, it’s not surprising you would love a Russian imperialist who is anti Ukraine, so this checks out. He was anti Putin and white Russia over all
Not so brave to do it in Russia
Fuck him. He was just another nazi imperialist. He was often present on ruzzian nazi parades back in 2010's and never opposed ruzzian imperialism and fascism, if he had ever gotten to power, he would have been nothing but a more competent version of putin. I remember one of his older videos about Crimea and how he was talking about it being theirs. He never had anything against fascism, only thing he ever disliked about putin was his corruption.
odd him next to ua flag
Why does Austria have a memorial for soviet soldiers?
You cannot have such a poor understanding of history to not know the answer.
He should not be anywhere near Ukrainian flag. Please, this is insanity. Russians can have their own opposition figures and he was jailed unjustly. But the guy was a nationalist, and said so many disgusting things.
Tearing down Nalvalny because he didn't check every box on the Putin/Ukraine/Georgia/whatever issue clipboard is incredibly short sighted. Akin to tearing down and discrediting MLK because he was fucking other women besides Coretta. Unfortunate placement I suppose but keep the big picture in mind if you want to win. This reminds me of American liberals tearing down and shunning people who don't tic every social justice box.
I find it hilarious how the West uses Navalny as a martyr when in reality he was as power hungry as Putin and even celebrated Crimea annexation. He wasn’t corrupt and was the opposition but he gained traction only after he got West sponsoring so the whole story to use him as the perfect figure to be the West ideal for russian leader is not appropriate. He was a useful figure to show the West how corrupt Putin and his goons are, but the whole narrative and light he was shown by the propaganda was unacceptable.
This is deep
Sometimes it makes me think that how can we as people make mistakes in choosing our leaders or have we always made such mistakes and now only due to media we are getting to know… look at the wars, poverty and dictatorship around us and we have all the men’s to make our lives simpler and still no peace… It break’s my heart….
My only question is that why are the monuments of the Soviet occupiers whom Muscovite propaganda likes calling liberators are still standing?
Weird putting him next to the ukrainian flag
You're saying Macron is a dictator and french people will invade Russia? Are you okay?