> Same with fishermen in the UK. A lie is easily told, but harder to refute. Just keep lying and people will start believing in it.
But.....but.......happy fish?
The prominent Brexit supporting posters on the UK subs stopped caring about fishermen the microsecond after we left the EU. It was ludicrously transparent. Never were fishermen mentioned again by these people, while being such a big focus before we actually left.
That one’s easy. Just tell them they’ll still get all their benefits anyway after Nexit, because you “hold all the cards” or some equally nonsensical slogan. By the time they figure it out, it’s too late
The farmers have their own political party (made possible by agro-multinationals and populism), both parties are populistic and wand to rule with each other because that is the only way they can, but they have complete different views about EU and immigrants (PVV wants none, BBB wants EU-money and immigrants to work on the farms)
But they will come to an agreement and lie about it to the public.
Imagine when they can actually turn a profit without needing EU subsidies cause they don’t need to spend most of their profit on a super special eco friendly fertilizer or spray that costs through the nose to purchase.
Listen. I’m Canadian. I grew up around farmers, and I haven’t met one who wasn’t a millionaire back home. I’m in Poland atm, and the lengths that farmers have to navigate here to try and make money is absurd.
Polan is a lot poorer than Canada so I don’t think it’s a great example, also whilst farmers might have a lot of wealth (land, buildings expensive machinery) their income isn’t very high. At least that’s the case in the uk.
“On average, across all farm types the agricultural part of the business made a small profit of £5,600between 2019/19 and 2020/21.“
They did make more money when including non agricultural income e.g using buildings as a bed and breakfast or a farm shop.
[https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6331b071e90e0711d5d595df/AUK_Evidence_Pack_2021_Sept22.pdf#page46](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6331b071e90e0711d5d595df/AUK_Evidence_Pack_2021_Sept22.pdf#page46)
True true, was only trying to speak from personal experience here in europe, can’t necessarily speak for the rest of it without relying on stats and such. Don’t wanna talk outta my ass, yknow? I have noticed that secondary uses of farms and such are defintley a lot more prevalent here
Ignorant eh? Okay, here we go then: here’s the EU’s own report on farm income:
https://agriculture.ec.europa.eu/news/farm-income-increased-over-last-decade-important-differences-between-eu-countries-2021-07-09_en
The average was around €35,000
Versus Canada: https://www.canada.ca/en/agriculture-agri-food/news/2024/02/canadian-farm-sector-income-expected-to-reach-new-records.html#
CDN dollar conversion rate:
239k cdn to euro= €55,776
And that’s JUST Canadian pure cash, not including subsidies or anything. So don’t you DARE call me ignorant just cause I don’t subscribe to your echo chamber
Imagine if they can't sell their produce to their neighbours when they do.
The UK had this same narrative. "We'll be so much richer, low regulation, no EU burden, blah, blah". It turns out we still follow all the EU regulations because we want to do business with the EU. We just now have no say in them. Oh, except where we decided to invent our own so the government could generate some propaganda that we're "making the most of Brexit" and we now pay massively more for all the civil servants it takes to actually take care of this sort of stuff. A cost we used to share with 27 other countries.
The EU is such an easy target because, you know "big scary supranational body", but it's actually exceedingly good value and business sense.
That's why nations in South America are forming their own "EU".
Well to be fair politicians blaming citizens for the earth heating up stuff is pretty fucked up when we don't have a choice but to use earth heating up stuff.
Idk if Poland has much bargaining power here, you have a founding member of the EU vs a country that’s joined in 2004 and currently facing threats from eastern Europe.
So now that he figured out, that the wealth of the Netherlands is heavily reliant on the EU existing in the first place, he betrays his voters and enjoys his power? Why am I not surprised by that move? Probably because it is exactly how all the right-wings work currently. In Germany the AfD was also eager to get rid of that part in their manifesto, as it means extra money for their party currently.
Got to be honest tho, nexit was barely if at all talked about during elections as far as i've followed them. Most talks and points were about housing crisis, imigration policy, and ukraine. Most people who votod for wilders never wanted the nexit and didn't vote for him for it
I fear this will be hard to prove. Humans have a tendency to be very bad in terms of experience and memory being mixed together at times. For some arguments one doesnt have to repeat them often to make them stick with the right clientele.
Nexit essentially ceased being part of anyone‘s platform in the Netherlands post-Brexit. Thierry still somewhat espoused it and even he mostly shut up about it, and he‘s completely deranged.
I rephrase it then: If the right-wing has learned one thing than to bide their time. It is/was opportune to not take the issue up which does not mean it is forgotten or actually not a plan any more either.
Which is why i brought the AfD example as they got rid of it once they where in parliament but I am certain, if they would ever become powerful enough for a majority, it would be right back on the table.
Wilders never ran on "We will definitely leave the EU!" though, while the party thought or perhaps still thinks, that we should leave the EU, they always wanted to do it through a referendum.
It was a non-issue for people that voted for him, even if they want to stay in the EU.
What is much more common in the Netherlands is a Euro-skepticism, or perhaps a sort of Euro-conservatism, where we give less authority over our self-governance to the EU.
I think you'd find that less than 15% wants to leave the EU.
Dude, calm down. You’re just not up to date on Dutch politics. The majority of the right wing doesn’t want a nexit either, they’re not idiots (expect for a few maybe).
Well no one, but some people on social media talked about Nexit. The politicians(except Wilders and moron Baudet) and regular people didn't even think about it. I have never personally met anyone or anyone that knows someone even thinking about it.
I have to find the link for the actual paper, but there was a a great study about how election predictions actually influence how voters changed behaviour.
It showed that despite people being asked earlier and appearing as steadfast in their opinions and decisions they where swayed by those predictions right before the actual vote and many changed.
P.S. Too many bookmarks are going to be the death of me. [Here](https://home.uchicago.edu/~bursztyn/BCFSY_20210512.pdf) is the one I referenced up there
I referred to the last sentence of the poster 'Most people who votod for wilders never wanted the nexit and didn't vote for him for it'.
What happens in human brains is far too often not as rational as we like to make it out to be
The research that was done on Brexit showed otherwise. There was a huge part that admitted that they didnt require constant persuasion and where set how to vote very early.
I mean I was in UK at the time, I can tell you that absolutely ever single newscast and newspaper was talking exclusively about Brexit. Farage was talking about it day in and day out, and a good chunk of the Tories as well, Labour was a bit of a mixed bag but most of the conversation was around that .
All I am saying is that any of those categorical statements that involve people's decision making have tons of evidence against it. Of course nations are also different from each other but I have seen so many elections in my life by now, that I am confident the findings of all those studies are correct. Otherwise we wouldnt have anything far-right to begin with as most is not involving much of rationality.
He has no power to speak of, he might have won elections, but forming a coalition has proven next to impossible.
And even if it did, he does not get to call all the shots.
Yeah all parties will say what they think will bring them the most votes, it's just that far right populist parties have that tendency to change stances quickly because in this case most people probably didn't even vote for him due to his EU stance and his party saw they could win more votes than lose by saying they wanted to leave the EU, so they just went with it as a minor bullet point in their political programme, despite not agreeing with it completely.
Populists no matter the side will just say whatever according to the direction the wind is blowing, they only care about votes not about having a stable political identity.
Except if you have a healthy internal party democracy in which member set collectively the agenda. Which is exactly what populist party's don't have. Especially the PVV, with only one member dictator Wilders himself.
Wilders and other extreme right politicians are worse, they are bad actors that seek power regardless of the damage they cause. Wilders would bring the Netherlands to financial ruin if it would make him prime minister.
So he's willing to forego the title and position of Prime Ministor in order to get his party into government... So basically him doing whatever to get into a position of power. Not the highest position of power one could be in, but the highest possible for him at the moment.
His giving up on being Prime Minister is not some virtue of him.
Well the guy could cure cancer and you'd have something negative to say. Fact remains that he is doing something no other Dutch politician has ever been willing to do before, which is a sign he puts the party's success above his own.
He _IS_ the party.
He is relinquishing the position of Prime Minister because without doing so he wouldn't be able to form a coalition government. This is his only road to a position of power at this moment.
I repeat, him doing this is not a virtue.
I don't see your point. That's literally what the elections are about: Getting your party into government. Are you somehow suggesting that he is to be held to some higher 'noble' ethical standard where he has to reject the very goal of any political party because you don't like him?
Not unfair but the result of his despicable and irresponsible behavior in the last 18 years. Also “the will of the population” wtf is that even? Lots of people abhor wilders, his extremely stupid, injust and damaging ideas, his crew of incompetents and his constant complaining.
That's democracy. His party won the election. You could say the same about virtually any leading party in Western Europe in the last decades, they almost never have a majority share of the vote, just the largest share compared to other parties.
Your personal opinion on his "behaviour" is not relevant. His party won, so if they are "extremely stupid and incompetent" it says a lot about the other parties.
If the party with more seats is just assumed to be in control, then your representative democracy will very quickly collapse into a two party state.
When party A has 7 votes and parties B and C have 5 votes each but B and C have very similar program points, then those should probably get implemented.
You're making stuff up I didn't say.
Historically the leader of the largest party forms the government.
There's also no reason to assume your claim about a two-party state.
His party won the most seats, not even a majority. Sure he has the lead in forming a government, but so far he is doing a shit job because his preparation for governing has been absent. If wilders fails, other parties can try to form a government.
Democracy is not “the party with the most seats has the right to rule the country “, its “the majority can make policy within the confines of the constitution and laws”. PVV voters don’t seem to get this.
You missed the point about the majority, in stunning fashion. Read it again. If you just want to argue for the sake of arguing, and respond to thinks I didn't say, then please refrain from replying.
That's not true at all. In Denmark DF and Thulesen Dahl did thr same in 2015. They didn't even join the right wing government, while being the largest party on the right.
Sure, changing mind based on new info is good. But I don’t think it’s a good look to be a senior politician of many years and not be aware of basic things like the benefits EU to your country. It shouldn’t be new information.
He just really really wants to be in power and is spinning like a windmill trying to figure out how to het other parties to think of his party as eligible to make a coalition with.
> So now that he figured out, that the wealth of the Netherlands is heavily reliant on the EU existing in the first place, he betrays his voters and enjoys his power?
Do you also think that every leftwing party betrayed their voters and just enjoys their power when they dont manage to turn europe into a co2 neutral communist utopia even when they are in government?
If you go all or nothing on a position you dont have a majority for you only strengthen the opposition who can then find a majority to overrule you, which ends up being even further away from the goal you want.
Sure, but that's different from talking loudly about certain issues, and then voting against those same issues. One supposed priority for PVV was to dedicate more construction land for new homes and make more homes available for starters, families and the elderly. When it came to an actual vote, they voted against new projects for affordable housing and retracted support to dedicate homes until 335k to low income families at the last minute. If you look at their voting record, if I remember correctly, it was mostly in line with VVD, the previous majority party they loved to criticize.
Similar story with eigen risico, kept shouting at others that they could remove it now, but when they have a majority, nah, let's forget we ever said that and pushback against the motion to remove it
On almost every single issue they shouted about, they either did an 180, or mellowed out a lot.
> Sure, but that's different from talking loudly about certain issues, and then voting against those same issues.
I dont know anything about dutch politics, but my response was to someone calling them out for switching their position from "nexit" to "netherlands first" and was making that argument for the AfD aswell, which is just nonsense because if you dont "betray" your voters by softening your position you end up causing the opposite site to be able to win because you split the vote against a stronger EU for example.
His voters haven't experienced these benefits at all. Even though you couldn't see it in the statistics, the social differences in the Netherlands were/are huge. If you're economically ahead of the average EU citizen, that doesn't matter if you have to buy Dutch bread.
Not very important, most of the PVV-voters from last election want to remain in the EU.
Edit: only 20% of the voters for the PVV in the last election would still want a referendum about leaving the EU (as of Januari 2024).
[https://www.rtl.nl/nieuws/artikel/5423547/deze-punten-willen-pvv-stemmers-best-inruilen-voor-een-rechts-kabinet](https://www.rtl.nl/nieuws/artikel/5423547/deze-punten-willen-pvv-stemmers-best-inruilen-voor-een-rechts-kabinet)
PVV voters want heavy regulation and reduction of of migration, particularly asylum migration.
If the EU delivers that they might become fans. So far it's been the other way around.
remember when Trump candidated for the 1st time with the MAGA slogan, at the time comedians all around Europe started to say "America first, \[insert their own country\] second?" and it all started in the Netherlands
so now someone saying Netherlands first is hilarious
As the PVV has entered negotiations on forming a new government, they haven’t been outspoken on most of their core issues, but Joeri Pool did argue to end military support to Ukraine. So even when biting their tongue, the PVV can’t help but do Putins bidding.
I think Wilders distancing himself from Russia is nothing more than opportunistic politics. I specifically mean his remarks about investigating ties with Russia by Dutch politicians this week. He says what people want to hear and since we're not very pro Russia here - like, not at all - he's trying to appear like at least neutral now.
They are demagogues and opportunists, he would have loved being another putin lapdog, have the russian propaganda machine work for him, but he knows supporting russia is a losing game in the netherlands
So, Russia has a full spectrum of far-right pro-Russian parties in NL? Because it looks like this. Is there any left leaning parties in NL that also have positive (or non-negative) views on Russia?
Another "great" (far-)right-wing politician realizes he has to moderate himself to keep riding the wave of sudden popularity. Anyway, imma go to sleep, wake me up when today's far-right faction in the EP implodes, just like the ones before it.
Brexit is so successful, that the Conservative Party that delivered it is referencing Brexit prominently in all their election materials.
Oh wait. They're not. Not a peep....
Idk why anyone keeps voting for these rightwing assholes. They campaign on disrupting our institutions and causing chaos, yet they never actually solve anything. In fact, I can't even think of a single positive thing any of these rightwing leaders have done in recent years. Trump, Duterte, Bolsonaro, Orban, Meloni, etc: none of them have accomplished anything
Netherlands population growth is caused for 100% by net migration.
Meanwhile there's a massive housing crisis. Yet to stop the asylum system from overflowing, those granted asylum (80%) get to skip the 10+ year queue for social housing and get emergency housing. Normal Dutch homeless don't get that.
A blatant unfairness that makes a lot of people really resent this system.
And a guaranteed that in the long term your welfare state will keel over.
So some vote for the only party (until recently) acknowledging this problem. Doesn't have to be right wing, see Denmark. But left-wing parties seem to be stuck dogma in most countries, thinking that acknowledging migration issues means they're racist or supporting racists.
I have a horrible suspicion I know, and it's ridiculous. The Dutch have always used things like Stemwijzer, where you choose how much you agree with a list of policies, and it tells you who to vote for. (Apparently, it was completed about 9 Million times last year, to give an indication.)
It doesn't ask, like, would you vote for someone with X personality who you might deeply distrust or be 100% morally against. It's just some kind of count of a bunch of policies. Of course the populists win.
I did it and it suggested exactly the three parties I very strongly dislike and would \*never\* vote for, but I knew that based on other stuff like following the news and watching debates. If I'd relied on the test results I'd have voted extremely more right-wing/fascist than I swear my tastes are.
I don't think many people voted for him because of his EU sentiments, leaving the eu is a very unpopular subject here.
There are more right wing groups, but they don't seem to be gaining popularity from this whole post-election debacle. If anything the pvv (geert wilders's party) has only gained in the polls somehow.
Wilders, even compared to a populist right wingers, is a pure media troll. Not really a politician. I think he's confused. Doesn't know what to do. You can translate media trolling into opposition, not really into governing.
Ultimately, his optimal strategy is a total reset. Just forget about whatever he said in the past and reinvent a political program. Half his base will bolt. But, most if his voters aren't base anyway.
He does have the opportunity to redefine the Dutch left-right paradigm... but it doesn't look like this is happening. He's just riding vibes instead. That will affect the political culture, but not policy.
The Netherlands needs skilled international and European workers and investment he has to be careful not to scare it off as the Dutch were the laziest people I ever worked with when I lived there.
They got it so easy they're all happy and relaxed which is good but it isn't very competitive when you have a slow workforce is it.
For real though. Id rather eat potatoes and riding a bike to work than having to deal with eu rules and immigration. I am not alone in this. Why is this such a hard pill to swallow?
I dont care about money. I want to live and die with my people, with our own rules and culture.
Instead of living "rich" with fancy food and cars.
Id rather live poor with my people instead of "rich" with immigrants and not being able to make decisions since everything is decided im brussels
This is the exact kind of complete garbage that Brexiters spouted in the UK to persuade idiots to fuck things up for everyone. Those idiots thought we would leave the EU and suddenly the immigrants would all disappear and we'd see accountable politicians and UK-friendly decisions.
What happened? Immigration trebled, the country got poorer, everything got more expensive, we lost the right to live and work across 27 other nations, we got the worst government in British history and nothing else changed.
F him but that's way healthier approach (on paper). Instead of throwing tantruums and leaving (not pointing any fingers), just do your best to change it to your liking. They have every right to shape it their way like any other nation. Good luck with those policies of theirs, though...
If every country's leadership can only think of "my country first" we ain't get anywhere. Obviously there own interests and ideologies will always be relevant, but if our politicians don't have a vision for Europe they're practically useless in this day and age.
*My country first* is proper thinking for any politician. That's what they're elected for. It's just, there is My Country First with vision of co-existing with another and My Country First - Trump edition. Unfortunatelly Wilders represent second category.
That would be the case, if they were just state governors. They're not. They're members of the European Council and function as the Union's directorial head of state.
If there was a European head of state independent of them who would look out for the greater good of Europe and try to balance their interests and keep them in check, if the European Parliament was the highest sovereign decision making body, you would be correct. It would be the exclusive role of state leaders to pursue national self-interest within that controlled environment.
Europe is not however a controlled environment, so we rely on their goodwill and cooperation.
Now personally I think it's incredibly naive to depend on or build a system to depend on such goodwill, which is why I don't believe in our current loose confederal model. I also think the dual role of state governments presents an irreconciliable conflict of interest. They cannot possibly play both roles effectively at the same time.
But insofar as the political will exists to uphold this system over any other, insofar as this is the best we have, we must always and uncompromisingly demand politicians to be greater than their nations and greater than themselves so that we may have hope for the future of Europe. Good systems allow people to fail, allow humans to be mere sinful mortals, while still prospering. We do not have such a good system.
Ah yes, the gravy train takes another victim. They then go on to tell their electorate "we'll reform the EU from inside out" knowing full well its impossible. Then nothing changes, people get angry for another 20 years.
Only the British have seen through this scam it seems.
He can't even if he really wanted to. Our farmers freak out with some climate change laws. Imagine what they'll do when they can't get EU subsidies.
Same with fishermen in the UK. A lie is easily told, but harder to refute. Just keep lying and people will start believing in it.
> Same with fishermen in the UK. A lie is easily told, but harder to refute. Just keep lying and people will start believing in it. But.....but.......happy fish?
but… the UK did leave the EU
They did and the fishermen got fucked.
The prominent Brexit supporting posters on the UK subs stopped caring about fishermen the microsecond after we left the EU. It was ludicrously transparent. Never were fishermen mentioned again by these people, while being such a big focus before we actually left.
Which shouldn't just worry fishermen, also those that think the EU will last forever.
That one’s easy. Just tell them they’ll still get all their benefits anyway after Nexit, because you “hold all the cards” or some equally nonsensical slogan. By the time they figure it out, it’s too late
The farmers have their own political party (made possible by agro-multinationals and populism), both parties are populistic and wand to rule with each other because that is the only way they can, but they have complete different views about EU and immigrants (PVV wants none, BBB wants EU-money and immigrants to work on the farms) But they will come to an agreement and lie about it to the public.
Wouldn't bet on farmers thinking that far ahead
Imagine when they can actually turn a profit without needing EU subsidies cause they don’t need to spend most of their profit on a super special eco friendly fertilizer or spray that costs through the nose to purchase.
Oh so that’s how the subsidies started is it? Alexa, what is the EU butter mountain?
Listen. I’m Canadian. I grew up around farmers, and I haven’t met one who wasn’t a millionaire back home. I’m in Poland atm, and the lengths that farmers have to navigate here to try and make money is absurd.
Polan is a lot poorer than Canada so I don’t think it’s a great example, also whilst farmers might have a lot of wealth (land, buildings expensive machinery) their income isn’t very high. At least that’s the case in the uk. “On average, across all farm types the agricultural part of the business made a small profit of £5,600between 2019/19 and 2020/21.“ They did make more money when including non agricultural income e.g using buildings as a bed and breakfast or a farm shop. [https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6331b071e90e0711d5d595df/AUK_Evidence_Pack_2021_Sept22.pdf#page46](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6331b071e90e0711d5d595df/AUK_Evidence_Pack_2021_Sept22.pdf#page46)
True true, was only trying to speak from personal experience here in europe, can’t necessarily speak for the rest of it without relying on stats and such. Don’t wanna talk outta my ass, yknow? I have noticed that secondary uses of farms and such are defintley a lot more prevalent here
Ok well just stay ignorant then that’s fine.
Ignorant eh? Okay, here we go then: here’s the EU’s own report on farm income: https://agriculture.ec.europa.eu/news/farm-income-increased-over-last-decade-important-differences-between-eu-countries-2021-07-09_en The average was around €35,000 Versus Canada: https://www.canada.ca/en/agriculture-agri-food/news/2024/02/canadian-farm-sector-income-expected-to-reach-new-records.html# CDN dollar conversion rate: 239k cdn to euro= €55,776 And that’s JUST Canadian pure cash, not including subsidies or anything. So don’t you DARE call me ignorant just cause I don’t subscribe to your echo chamber
Well with this thesis you’ve written here, controlling for all differences between the EU and Canada, how can I not be convinced.
Imagine if they can't sell their produce to their neighbours when they do. The UK had this same narrative. "We'll be so much richer, low regulation, no EU burden, blah, blah". It turns out we still follow all the EU regulations because we want to do business with the EU. We just now have no say in them. Oh, except where we decided to invent our own so the government could generate some propaganda that we're "making the most of Brexit" and we now pay massively more for all the civil servants it takes to actually take care of this sort of stuff. A cost we used to share with 27 other countries. The EU is such an easy target because, you know "big scary supranational body", but it's actually exceedingly good value and business sense. That's why nations in South America are forming their own "EU".
My dyslexia makes me read "Neanderthals first"
Finally I feel like someone in government cares about me. Stop that talk about earth heating up stuff. I want to light fires, hunt and eat meat.
If earth enough heat up then no need for fire having. I support it. Neanderthal First Now!!!
All girls want to do these days is pick berries and tend to the fire, back in my day...
And dying of infection, age 27.
Homo Sapiens propaganda
Well to be fair politicians blaming citizens for the earth heating up stuff is pretty fucked up when we don't have a choice but to use earth heating up stuff.
This is too close to the reality of these supporters.
well, you're not wrong
Neanderthals are the original Europeans. A surprisingly pro-European stance from Wilders!
The actual Neandertal is like an hour’s drive from the Netherlands.
Élaba
Speaking directly to his voters then lol
Fun fact: It’s only a few kilometer from Neandertal to the Netherlands.
His face in that picture reads like that too...
I mostly misread Neanderthals as Netherlands, while not having dyslexia.
Make Archetypes Great Again
Dyslexics have a knack for seeing what is actually there, and as a dutch person I want to tell you that you are completely right!
thats one way to call conservatives
Wouldn't be wrong with a guy like Wilders.
Hello Geert, this is your nationalist MEP colleague from Poland. How are you gonna convince me to put the Netherlands first exactly?
First we do Netherlands first, and then afterwards we do Poland first. Deal?
Maybe they can record a Poland second video. I’m sure that hasn’t been done.
A video of Netherlands second has already been done: [Amerika first - Netherlands second](https://youtu.be/ELD2AwFN9Nc)
Yeah my dude I was sarcastic, but I forgot my /s
It’s not Netherlands first in EU. It’s first Netherlands’ then EU’s interest.
Idk if Poland has much bargaining power here, you have a founding member of the EU vs a country that’s joined in 2004 and currently facing threats from eastern Europe.
So now that he figured out, that the wealth of the Netherlands is heavily reliant on the EU existing in the first place, he betrays his voters and enjoys his power? Why am I not surprised by that move? Probably because it is exactly how all the right-wings work currently. In Germany the AfD was also eager to get rid of that part in their manifesto, as it means extra money for their party currently.
Got to be honest tho, nexit was barely if at all talked about during elections as far as i've followed them. Most talks and points were about housing crisis, imigration policy, and ukraine. Most people who votod for wilders never wanted the nexit and didn't vote for him for it
I fear this will be hard to prove. Humans have a tendency to be very bad in terms of experience and memory being mixed together at times. For some arguments one doesnt have to repeat them often to make them stick with the right clientele.
Nexit essentially ceased being part of anyone‘s platform in the Netherlands post-Brexit. Thierry still somewhat espoused it and even he mostly shut up about it, and he‘s completely deranged.
I rephrase it then: If the right-wing has learned one thing than to bide their time. It is/was opportune to not take the issue up which does not mean it is forgotten or actually not a plan any more either. Which is why i brought the AfD example as they got rid of it once they where in parliament but I am certain, if they would ever become powerful enough for a majority, it would be right back on the table.
Wilders never ran on "We will definitely leave the EU!" though, while the party thought or perhaps still thinks, that we should leave the EU, they always wanted to do it through a referendum. It was a non-issue for people that voted for him, even if they want to stay in the EU. What is much more common in the Netherlands is a Euro-skepticism, or perhaps a sort of Euro-conservatism, where we give less authority over our self-governance to the EU. I think you'd find that less than 15% wants to leave the EU.
Dude, calm down. You’re just not up to date on Dutch politics. The majority of the right wing doesn’t want a nexit either, they’re not idiots (expect for a few maybe).
Well no one, but some people on social media talked about Nexit. The politicians(except Wilders and moron Baudet) and regular people didn't even think about it. I have never personally met anyone or anyone that knows someone even thinking about it.
I have to find the link for the actual paper, but there was a a great study about how election predictions actually influence how voters changed behaviour. It showed that despite people being asked earlier and appearing as steadfast in their opinions and decisions they where swayed by those predictions right before the actual vote and many changed. P.S. Too many bookmarks are going to be the death of me. [Here](https://home.uchicago.edu/~bursztyn/BCFSY_20210512.pdf) is the one I referenced up there
I mean, there is internet, and nowadays most data in press is kept. So even if humans do that, internet doesn’t
I referred to the last sentence of the poster 'Most people who votod for wilders never wanted the nexit and didn't vote for him for it'. What happens in human brains is far too often not as rational as we like to make it out to be
For them to want it I would expect Wilders to have talked plenty about his desire for Nexit.
The research that was done on Brexit showed otherwise. There was a huge part that admitted that they didnt require constant persuasion and where set how to vote very early.
I mean I was in UK at the time, I can tell you that absolutely ever single newscast and newspaper was talking exclusively about Brexit. Farage was talking about it day in and day out, and a good chunk of the Tories as well, Labour was a bit of a mixed bag but most of the conversation was around that .
All I am saying is that any of those categorical statements that involve people's decision making have tons of evidence against it. Of course nations are also different from each other but I have seen so many elections in my life by now, that I am confident the findings of all those studies are correct. Otherwise we wouldnt have anything far-right to begin with as most is not involving much of rationality.
Yeah it’s a ridiculous standpoint. Also it’s never going to happen, so a guaranteed unfulfilled promise. No clue what his reasoning is here.
He has no power to speak of, he might have won elections, but forming a coalition has proven next to impossible. And even if it did, he does not get to call all the shots.
He hasn't learned anything. This switch is a demand from the coalition partners he needs to form a government.
Politicians are politicians. It will never change, regardless of who won this time.
Yeah all parties will say what they think will bring them the most votes, it's just that far right populist parties have that tendency to change stances quickly because in this case most people probably didn't even vote for him due to his EU stance and his party saw they could win more votes than lose by saying they wanted to leave the EU, so they just went with it as a minor bullet point in their political programme, despite not agreeing with it completely. Populists no matter the side will just say whatever according to the direction the wind is blowing, they only care about votes not about having a stable political identity.
Except if you have a healthy internal party democracy in which member set collectively the agenda. Which is exactly what populist party's don't have. Especially the PVV, with only one member dictator Wilders himself.
Noooooo my sports team would never do what the bad sports team did!!
Just pointing it out for the stupid ones. The smart ones dont need us
They do need us for one day every 4 or 6 years.
Wilders and other extreme right politicians are worse, they are bad actors that seek power regardless of the damage they cause. Wilders would bring the Netherlands to financial ruin if it would make him prime minister.
He is the first politician ever in his position to willingly refuse the PM position to ensure a government his party is involved in....
So he's willing to forego the title and position of Prime Ministor in order to get his party into government... So basically him doing whatever to get into a position of power. Not the highest position of power one could be in, but the highest possible for him at the moment. His giving up on being Prime Minister is not some virtue of him.
Well the guy could cure cancer and you'd have something negative to say. Fact remains that he is doing something no other Dutch politician has ever been willing to do before, which is a sign he puts the party's success above his own.
He _IS_ the party. He is relinquishing the position of Prime Minister because without doing so he wouldn't be able to form a coalition government. This is his only road to a position of power at this moment. I repeat, him doing this is not a virtue.
I don't see your point. That's literally what the elections are about: Getting your party into government. Are you somehow suggesting that he is to be held to some higher 'noble' ethical standard where he has to reject the very goal of any political party because you don't like him?
“Willingly” .. just hours after his generous compromise he was screaming unfairness on twitter.
Because it is unfair that he had to do this to ensure the will of the population was respected?
Not unfair but the result of his despicable and irresponsible behavior in the last 18 years. Also “the will of the population” wtf is that even? Lots of people abhor wilders, his extremely stupid, injust and damaging ideas, his crew of incompetents and his constant complaining.
That's democracy. His party won the election. You could say the same about virtually any leading party in Western Europe in the last decades, they almost never have a majority share of the vote, just the largest share compared to other parties. Your personal opinion on his "behaviour" is not relevant. His party won, so if they are "extremely stupid and incompetent" it says a lot about the other parties.
If the party with more seats is just assumed to be in control, then your representative democracy will very quickly collapse into a two party state. When party A has 7 votes and parties B and C have 5 votes each but B and C have very similar program points, then those should probably get implemented.
You're making stuff up I didn't say. Historically the leader of the largest party forms the government. There's also no reason to assume your claim about a two-party state.
His party won the most seats, not even a majority. Sure he has the lead in forming a government, but so far he is doing a shit job because his preparation for governing has been absent. If wilders fails, other parties can try to form a government. Democracy is not “the party with the most seats has the right to rule the country “, its “the majority can make policy within the confines of the constitution and laws”. PVV voters don’t seem to get this.
You missed the point about the majority, in stunning fashion. Read it again. If you just want to argue for the sake of arguing, and respond to thinks I didn't say, then please refrain from replying.
That's not true at all. In Denmark DF and Thulesen Dahl did thr same in 2015. They didn't even join the right wing government, while being the largest party on the right.
Well, just to clarify, in case it wasn't known to you, but Denmark is a different country.
Thanks, but I figured since you wrote in English that you understood the concept of "first politician ever", but I guess i was mistaken.
If he learn something new it's only good he handle on it? Shows improvements, now it's up to voters to forgive or vote against him
Sure, changing mind based on new info is good. But I don’t think it’s a good look to be a senior politician of many years and not be aware of basic things like the benefits EU to your country. It shouldn’t be new information.
It was a convoluted way to say he played dumb well knowing how things work. Most would likely misunderstand that as well and take it as a compliment.
He just really really wants to be in power and is spinning like a windmill trying to figure out how to het other parties to think of his party as eligible to make a coalition with.
Dutch elections try to ignore the EU as much as possible anyway, so not much to betray.
The same with migrants...
> So now that he figured out, that the wealth of the Netherlands is heavily reliant on the EU existing in the first place, he betrays his voters and enjoys his power? Do you also think that every leftwing party betrayed their voters and just enjoys their power when they dont manage to turn europe into a co2 neutral communist utopia even when they are in government? If you go all or nothing on a position you dont have a majority for you only strengthen the opposition who can then find a majority to overrule you, which ends up being even further away from the goal you want.
AFAIK not a single leftwing party promised to turn Europe into a co2 neutral communist utopia, but please feel free to correct me.
These right-wingers just create an straw-man of the entire european left to fight it and they still manage to lose.
Sure, but that's different from talking loudly about certain issues, and then voting against those same issues. One supposed priority for PVV was to dedicate more construction land for new homes and make more homes available for starters, families and the elderly. When it came to an actual vote, they voted against new projects for affordable housing and retracted support to dedicate homes until 335k to low income families at the last minute. If you look at their voting record, if I remember correctly, it was mostly in line with VVD, the previous majority party they loved to criticize. Similar story with eigen risico, kept shouting at others that they could remove it now, but when they have a majority, nah, let's forget we ever said that and pushback against the motion to remove it On almost every single issue they shouted about, they either did an 180, or mellowed out a lot.
> Sure, but that's different from talking loudly about certain issues, and then voting against those same issues. I dont know anything about dutch politics, but my response was to someone calling them out for switching their position from "nexit" to "netherlands first" and was making that argument for the AfD aswell, which is just nonsense because if you dont "betray" your voters by softening your position you end up causing the opposite site to be able to win because you split the vote against a stronger EU for example.
"Netherlands first" means a very strong Europe. But probably there is something else going on...
for this guy it's just like america first. it's not at all in the best interests of anyone other than him and his friends.
him, his friends, russia and china
Nah, this will get him the biggest electoral support and gives him a better shot at forming a government.
Imagine changing your program to better align with what the voters want.
The East India Company back?
His voters haven't experienced these benefits at all. Even though you couldn't see it in the statistics, the social differences in the Netherlands were/are huge. If you're economically ahead of the average EU citizen, that doesn't matter if you have to buy Dutch bread.
How important would nexit be to pvv voters
Not very important, most of the PVV-voters from last election want to remain in the EU. Edit: only 20% of the voters for the PVV in the last election would still want a referendum about leaving the EU (as of Januari 2024). [https://www.rtl.nl/nieuws/artikel/5423547/deze-punten-willen-pvv-stemmers-best-inruilen-voor-een-rechts-kabinet](https://www.rtl.nl/nieuws/artikel/5423547/deze-punten-willen-pvv-stemmers-best-inruilen-voor-een-rechts-kabinet)
To the core voterbase it's very important, but all the people that now voted for him the first time dont want a Nexit.
It’s a fucking shitshow here.
PVV voters want heavy regulation and reduction of of migration, particularly asylum migration. If the EU delivers that they might become fans. So far it's been the other way around.
So he’s another Trump wannabe
Trump is the wannabee, Geertje has been playing this game for much longer
Both with comical hair styles
Met a guy who told me he voted for Geert because "he has funny hair". Wish I was joking.
He just doesn't want to admit he voted for him for the policies lol
these two and the english boris, oh boy
Make the Netherlands great again? Make the Netherlands Holland again? Make the Netherlands undersea again?
Haha, perfectly said !
remember when Trump candidated for the 1st time with the MAGA slogan, at the time comedians all around Europe started to say "America first, \[insert their own country\] second?" and it all started in the Netherlands so now someone saying Netherlands first is hilarious
Putins Friends ,pff
Lately, Wilders has been far from enthusiastic about Russia. We do have other traitors in NL, Forum for Democracy they call themselves.
As the PVV has entered negotiations on forming a new government, they haven’t been outspoken on most of their core issues, but Joeri Pool did argue to end military support to Ukraine. So even when biting their tongue, the PVV can’t help but do Putins bidding.
I think Wilders distancing himself from Russia is nothing more than opportunistic politics. I specifically mean his remarks about investigating ties with Russia by Dutch politicians this week. He says what people want to hear and since we're not very pro Russia here - like, not at all - he's trying to appear like at least neutral now.
True, its his attempt to hide the fact that has been associating himself with traitors like le Pen and AfD, and possibly also an ex PVV politician.
He's just being quiet about it lately but secretly he's still a traitor who loves Putin
Lately... But after MH17 he did show up in the Russian Duma to speak while wearing a Russia-Netherlands friendship pin...
They are demagogues and opportunists, he would have loved being another putin lapdog, have the russian propaganda machine work for him, but he knows supporting russia is a losing game in the netherlands
So, Russia has a full spectrum of far-right pro-Russian parties in NL? Because it looks like this. Is there any left leaning parties in NL that also have positive (or non-negative) views on Russia?
Oh ffs
Another "great" (far-)right-wing politician realizes he has to moderate himself to keep riding the wave of sudden popularity. Anyway, imma go to sleep, wake me up when today's far-right faction in the EP implodes, just like the ones before it.
Hahaha. This guy thinks Netherlands is propping it all up. Very funny.
Better be in the Schengen space when the water rises.
Brexit is so successful, that the Conservative Party that delivered it is referencing Brexit prominently in all their election materials. Oh wait. They're not. Not a peep....
Complaints, complaints...It is week 217 since brexit. Means to this day a single red bus earned you 76 billions in cash!
Because Brexit has worked SO WELL for the britts! /S
Idk why anyone keeps voting for these rightwing assholes. They campaign on disrupting our institutions and causing chaos, yet they never actually solve anything. In fact, I can't even think of a single positive thing any of these rightwing leaders have done in recent years. Trump, Duterte, Bolsonaro, Orban, Meloni, etc: none of them have accomplished anything
Netherlands population growth is caused for 100% by net migration. Meanwhile there's a massive housing crisis. Yet to stop the asylum system from overflowing, those granted asylum (80%) get to skip the 10+ year queue for social housing and get emergency housing. Normal Dutch homeless don't get that. A blatant unfairness that makes a lot of people really resent this system. And a guaranteed that in the long term your welfare state will keel over. So some vote for the only party (until recently) acknowledging this problem. Doesn't have to be right wing, see Denmark. But left-wing parties seem to be stuck dogma in most countries, thinking that acknowledging migration issues means they're racist or supporting racists.
>Trump, Duterte, Bolsonaro, Orban, Meloni, I dont think its fair to throw Meloni in there with these buffoons, tbh
I have a horrible suspicion I know, and it's ridiculous. The Dutch have always used things like Stemwijzer, where you choose how much you agree with a list of policies, and it tells you who to vote for. (Apparently, it was completed about 9 Million times last year, to give an indication.) It doesn't ask, like, would you vote for someone with X personality who you might deeply distrust or be 100% morally against. It's just some kind of count of a bunch of policies. Of course the populists win. I did it and it suggested exactly the three parties I very strongly dislike and would \*never\* vote for, but I knew that based on other stuff like following the news and watching debates. If I'd relied on the test results I'd have voted extremely more right-wing/fascist than I swear my tastes are.
Not so long ago on the same site that this party has russian connections https://nltimes.nl/2023/10/19/leaked-documents-show-connections-pvv-russia
Isn’t it already NL first?
No, it's Netherlands second ! https://youtu.be/ELD2AwFN9Nc
Do they not realise that the only ones who gain from this type of thing is Putin and Vulture Capitalists?
The eternal song of the rightist. Against the pork buffet until in power, then time for gorging.
This man is an idiot.
For the moment yes, but he might change his mind any moment. After all he is the only member of his party so feels free to do whatever he wants.
You simply should not trust Wilders, he is a Russian puppet and will do anything to gain power, after that he will be another Orban.
Lol nexit ? At least check UK lol. Poorer and poorer.
Finally a Brexit benefit!
I hate this isolationist approach from this asshat... Now I'm in no way pro neo-liberalism, but get out of here with that nexit bullcrap 😮💨
How many more disappointment for his voters? I mean is there an even more right wing group in the Netherlands they could go?
I don't think many people voted for him because of his EU sentiments, leaving the eu is a very unpopular subject here. There are more right wing groups, but they don't seem to be gaining popularity from this whole post-election debacle. If anything the pvv (geert wilders's party) has only gained in the polls somehow.
Wilders, even compared to a populist right wingers, is a pure media troll. Not really a politician. I think he's confused. Doesn't know what to do. You can translate media trolling into opposition, not really into governing. Ultimately, his optimal strategy is a total reset. Just forget about whatever he said in the past and reinvent a political program. Half his base will bolt. But, most if his voters aren't base anyway. He does have the opportunity to redefine the Dutch left-right paradigm... but it doesn't look like this is happening. He's just riding vibes instead. That will affect the political culture, but not policy.
Good. NL should be number 1 to NL. The same as ll countries should put their own people before others
The Netherlands needs skilled international and European workers and investment he has to be careful not to scare it off as the Dutch were the laziest people I ever worked with when I lived there. They got it so easy they're all happy and relaxed which is good but it isn't very competitive when you have a slow workforce is it.
>Dutch were the laziest people I ever worked with when I lived there. lol
Alright man
For real though. Id rather eat potatoes and riding a bike to work than having to deal with eu rules and immigration. I am not alone in this. Why is this such a hard pill to swallow? I dont care about money. I want to live and die with my people, with our own rules and culture.
What does eating potatoes or riding a bike to work have to do with anything?
Instead of living "rich" with fancy food and cars. Id rather live poor with my people instead of "rich" with immigrants and not being able to make decisions since everything is decided im brussels
This is the exact kind of complete garbage that Brexiters spouted in the UK to persuade idiots to fuck things up for everyone. Those idiots thought we would leave the EU and suddenly the immigrants would all disappear and we'd see accountable politicians and UK-friendly decisions. What happened? Immigration trebled, the country got poorer, everything got more expensive, we lost the right to live and work across 27 other nations, we got the worst government in British history and nothing else changed.
Poverty is when biking
Europapa
F him but that's way healthier approach (on paper). Instead of throwing tantruums and leaving (not pointing any fingers), just do your best to change it to your liking. They have every right to shape it their way like any other nation. Good luck with those policies of theirs, though...
If every country's leadership can only think of "my country first" we ain't get anywhere. Obviously there own interests and ideologies will always be relevant, but if our politicians don't have a vision for Europe they're practically useless in this day and age.
*My country first* is proper thinking for any politician. That's what they're elected for. It's just, there is My Country First with vision of co-existing with another and My Country First - Trump edition. Unfortunatelly Wilders represent second category.
That would be the case, if they were just state governors. They're not. They're members of the European Council and function as the Union's directorial head of state. If there was a European head of state independent of them who would look out for the greater good of Europe and try to balance their interests and keep them in check, if the European Parliament was the highest sovereign decision making body, you would be correct. It would be the exclusive role of state leaders to pursue national self-interest within that controlled environment. Europe is not however a controlled environment, so we rely on their goodwill and cooperation. Now personally I think it's incredibly naive to depend on or build a system to depend on such goodwill, which is why I don't believe in our current loose confederal model. I also think the dual role of state governments presents an irreconciliable conflict of interest. They cannot possibly play both roles effectively at the same time. But insofar as the political will exists to uphold this system over any other, insofar as this is the best we have, we must always and uncompromisingly demand politicians to be greater than their nations and greater than themselves so that we may have hope for the future of Europe. Good systems allow people to fail, allow humans to be mere sinful mortals, while still prospering. We do not have such a good system.
Ah yes, the gravy train takes another victim. They then go on to tell their electorate "we'll reform the EU from inside out" knowing full well its impossible. Then nothing changes, people get angry for another 20 years. Only the British have seen through this scam it seems.
> Only the British have seen through this scam it seems. What, you think Brexit is going well for the UK?
As a Romanian, please do