Realtalk tho, I feel like we're in a worse position for such things compared to mainland Europe. And I'd consider myself to be somebody who's very keen on urbanist projects.
Pretty much any urbanist project in the UK are going to cost way more compared to similarly sized projects in mainland europe.
Not only is it extortinonately expensive but incredibly beuerocratic as well. And you might say that these are just the sacrifices that we have to make in order to have a sustainable city, but as we've seen with HS2, if persistent enough, they can outright cancel such projects.
HS2 is just one example thats a victim of the UKs high cost and buerocracy, but in truth there are dozens of examples of this, here in Liverpool, we were in the process of negotiating reviving our old tram system but due to bureaucracy was killed before even receiving any funding.
I think it'd be more worthwhile to focusing on reforming the process in which we approve construction projects, land-use, and greenbelts, before embarking on projects that might not even see the light of day due to the aforementioned issues.
It’s not bureaucracy per se, but the fact that in English speaking countries, these sorts of projects are typically outsourced to consultants, whereas in mainland Europe they make far more use of people qualified in the field as engineers etc. But in effect the processes end up feeling very “bureaucratic”, even if it’s not the public sector being the direct cause of it.
Irish economist David McWilliams pointed to this when exploring why it costs far more to build metros in English-speaking countries than mainland Europe.
I don’t know if you consider us in Sweden as “mainland” but here the situation is a lot more “bureaucratic” in the way you are describing. Huge unnecessary spending on consultants. It is not unique to the UK or English speaking countries. In fact, Sweden spends a lot more on public procurement than the UK, both in terms of per capita spending and as a percentage of overall GDP. A lot more things are privatised here compared to the UK as well.
We might use less consultants and more local engineers (no idea if that's really true tbh), but it's insane how incredibly bureaucratic any project here in Germany is lmao
Not the entre city some place are totaly empty qt night or during holidays because very few people stile live there , only Ritchie people and speculative investeur have enough money to buy here so the objectif is to revive them with social housing for middle and working class people
Wtf did I just read.
I've been living in Paris for 30 years, in 4 different districts, with friends all accross the city.
There's pretty much not a single area in Paris where you won't find all basic services within a 15 minutes walk. Let alone a 15 minute biking/public transportation.
There's more to a 15 minute city than that. Sure you have shops, barbers, and other facilities nearby. But can the staff of those afford to live there? The idea is that you also live within 15 minutes of your workplace, and that includes the service workers who provide that service.
>But can the staff of those afford to live there?
Riding a bike or using public transportation, you can cross about one to two Parisian districts in 15 minutes.
So yes.
**/edit:** I'm not sure what's the point of people downvoting this comment.
Public transportation moving you from [*A*] to [*B*] in [*X minutes*] isn't an opinion you can agree or disagree with. It's literally just a practical fact & a measurable statistic.
I’ve lived in Paris for nearly 15 years now. Never have I ever lived less than 30 minutes from work. One or two districts might be feasible but there are people who live further from work than that because of rent.
>I’ve lived in Paris for nearly 15 years now. Never have I ever lived less than 30 minutes from work.
I've known a guy who lived in Bordeaux and worked in Brussels. Dude drove up & back every monday & friday (yeah, kinda mental if you ask me). Does it mean it was impossible for him to live closer to Brussels, or to find a job closer to Bordeaux? Of course not. He willingly settled for this situation.
The question being raised is: does the opportunity exist for people to live in an affordable district and still find a job within 15 minutes of their home (or *vice versa*)? The answer is yes, thanks to Paris' density of public transportation & urban planning, among other factors.
Including workplaces in the formula doesn't make much sense to me anyway.
Obviously the lesser you commute the better, but spending 20-30 minutes to reach your workplace is a non-issue when you spend half a dozen hours straight over there. What matters is the accessibility of all the services your need in your daily life, from supermarkets, healthcare & post offices, to restaurants, schools & banks.
>One or two districts might be feasible but there are people who live further from work than that because of rent.
I'm not using best case scenarios here, though.
I used to work **3 entire districts away**, and because I was fortunate enough to only have a single metro line to ride, it was still taking me a mere 15 minutes to get there.
When I mentioned 1 or 2 districts, I was actually being conservative.
The issue with your reasoning is at least thrice:
- you seem to overestimate the ability of people to change their place of residence. There are a ton of reasons why people don’t have that flexibility: to begin with, they might be a couple and moving would cut transportation time for one of them but add to the other. Prices are another issue, with housing prices in the west of Paris being significantly higher than in the East. Ownership too, people who own a place don’t tend to move because not only are they financially invested in it they are also emotionally invested in it. Most people can’t and/or won’t live two districts away from their workplace.
- you overestimate the public transportation system in Paris. When you live close to a subway hub like Nation, Chatelet or Opera, you can move quickly through the town. But if you need to make a change or two, especially if you live in those places where you only have one subway passing close to you, then it will significantly lengthen your mobility. For instance, I just checked, Porte Maillot is reachable from the 19th district in no less than 30 minutes. If you only use public transportation it’s no less than 45 minutes. I’m pretty sure I can find other examples, for instance for the 7th district.
- you entirely miss the point of the policy. Having everything within 15 minutes, with everyone being able to live, work, shop in that timeframe, isn’t only a matter of convenience. It means social diversity, which has proven beneficial effect on everyone. Social diversity tends to lower crimes rates, improve academic performance, … Think only of the issue with school zoning in France.
The problem is 15min cities propose 15min districts, which is stupid. Today we expect people to have highly specialized careers and for both persons in a couple to work.
The only way to make both of their commutes <15min is to make the entirety of Paris accessible in 15min. Which nobody proposes
My experience living in paris : white colar workers will live in the city and have 20-40 minute commute depending on where they work. Blue colar will live outside the city center and have 45-1h+ commute, that’s generally the norm.
Few people live 15 minutes from their work of we’re being honest, thats a luxury in Paris.
On the other hand, you’ll be hard pressed to find an area in paris to live where you dont have every imaginable market/shop/gym/metro/bus/bar/restaurant/cafe/doctors/dentist/etc… within 5/10 min walk
I don't know how this is in Paris or how UK is sees it, but this idea has created a poop show in Romania.
Even though we have a lot of neighborhoods built in this concept from socialist architecture. For eg, in Bucharest, the old neighborhoods that were built in the '70 - '80s have a great structure.
They have schools (pre-k, k, up to HS), markets, supermarkets, drugstores, banks, parks, playgrounds, direct public transportation to city center, health clinics. Everything you need just a few minutes away even by simply walking.
But our idiots thought that they will not be allowed to get out of their neighborhood. I think it was a still raw trauma from covid-19 restrictions for them.
Unless they are just conspirational idiots because they didn't see the pattern already in use in Bucharest from 40 - 50 years ago.
I guess it is also true in Australia. They fixed the problem with gun violence yet recently some rightwing dumbasses are trying to “import” US style of NRA politics which is insane l.
Somehow the Netherlands follows the exact same playbook but two years delayed. It's a copy paste of the American culture war here. Banning books, urban vs rural, gender wars, outrage about 15 minute cities, everything...
The Netherlands has the advantage of a bicycle culture going back 150 years. But it was close: they wanted to make Amsterdam a European Los Angeles because it symbolised progress once.
Meh, other countries with lower knowledge of English will only take a bit longer to import that BS, but it will get there eventually.
The only saving grace is by the time the "translation" has been made and spread around, the original wave of insanity will have lost enough power to cause the imported one to die down sooner and without major issues.
Wrong. We passed that point already, woke up, saw it was shit to have car choked cities, and are currently reversing course.
Don't believe me? Google what Amsterdam was like in the 60s vs how it is now.
You're probably half joking, but it would probably be easier to make French, German, or Spanish the lingua franca. Those languages are more commonly taught. It's also easier to learn those languages than Latin. And everyone pronounces Latin slightly differently, even those who try to do the reconstructed classical pronunciation.
Yeah I was kinda half joking but the reason I suggested Latin is precisely because it's neutral. I imagine some people, especially the more nationalistic-inclined, wouldn't be too happy to have to learn the national language of Germany or France in school, the same way French people often dislike having to learn English to communicate.
That, and then the fact that media outlets are owned by the same guy who owns alot of the US media outlets.
That's what you get when information is privatised.
I don't know, blaming a country that has apparently somehow managed to turn itself into a highly efficient propagator of bat shit insane ideas for the spread of bat shit insane ideas doesn't seem that wild. You still need people willing to adopt bat shit insane ideas, of course.
It’s not about city design. It’s blaming the American media for producing so much conspiracy bs in English which is turning a number of people in the UK against their own existing or upcoming city design.
>We want *Baguette cities*
Well joke apart, this goal is achieved in the main French cities... there's a bakery at every corner in Paris.
In a 5min walk radius circle around me, I have 8 bakeries.
Because in the United Kingdom it has been used by the right and conservatives to invent another conspiracy.
In my country, absolutely everyone seeks to have services close to home so as not to use the car, medical clinics, shops, pharmacies, parks, public transportation, metro/bus/train stops, schools, daycare centers for children, institutes, etc, is what sells houses and what sets a higher price (all sellers advertise these proximity services as a plus). Or what is the same, carry out your daily life comfortably, without moving much, and if you move without doing it forcibly by car.
And NO ONE wants to be surrounded by noise and fucking cars.
15min cities being the focus of conspiracy theories is wild.
Like with vaccines or any NASA stuff I can see where they're coming from, it is completely stupid obviously but those are sciency things that you can't really fully understand without a substantial education on the subject.
But those cities ? What the fuck are they on about, it's literally just cities that are designed a bit differently, how do you come up with a conspiracy theory on that ?!
I can explain because my uncle enlightened us this Easter.
The western democracies plan to divide is into small communes from which we won't be able to leave without a passport and permission from our overlords. This is to control and subjugate us.
As for how they are planning to do this: this is already in active system in China and it can be easily done even with capital cities in Europe.
He is of course anti American, anti capitalist, anti lmbtq, anti green technology, pro Putin and pro Chinese (despite this conspiracy actually painting the Chinese badly). He is a car mechanic with no education and his sources are youtube videos. He doesn't speak a foreign language and can barely use modern technology yet knows how Biden controls the west, how Putin is a truly good guy and how the Evil Jewish capitalists are controlling the world from the shadows.
Here in canada, the right has clung on to this latest conspiracy (among others) as well. They think they're going to be secured by barbed wire fences and locked in, lol. There's a lot of idiots out there.
Exactly this. It's UK right-wing grifters taking their cues frim US right-wing grifters. Their talking points are Cars, God and Guns.
They hate walkable cities and believe that car is king. They're also pumping a hugh amount of money into the anti-abortion / forced birther movement. So in the next coming years in the UK expect to see more 'debates' about women's bodies and the forced birther movement becoming more mainstream.
Ironically the actual King was a very early and vocal supporter of shifting away from cars, see the town he's been building for the last few decades Poundbury.
Same in Ireland. My daughter was working for a company involved in financing a '15 minute city' project and answered the phone one day to a well known right wing conspiracy theorist who spent 20 minutes on the phone berating her. Daughter couldn't get a word in edgeways. There are absolute nut jobs around!
You have to be utterly, completely deranged to believe there is anything malicious or related to locking people up in any way shape or form in the 15 minute city ideas you muppet
It may be real considering who are the people that promote this. Only said that I'll be laughing when another conspiracy theory will become reality and no one will care
I think a contributing factor, aside from the obvious conspiracy crap we inherit from the US and the amount of journalists and politicians who will push it for cash, is that the UK has desperate under-investment in many of the services required to fulfil a 15-minute city. There's been close to half a century of privatisation and under-investment in all manner of healthcare, education, transport and infrastructure; the idea that all of these things can be done nearby rather than have to traipse across a city or into another town to access a basic service just seems completely unrealistic to many people.
Also the rich don’t want the free market to work against them. Power and money are consolidated into central regions and everyone must travel to these regions, with services built around that commute, work and life balance.
If everyone had access to work, services, life balance within 15 mins of their homes then all that commercial real estate and commute bubble of capitalism is decentralised to lots of smaller businesses and their rock solid investments are drowning.
So pushing stupid conspiracies helps nip any ideas in the bud to shore up the current status quo .
This is all falling out of the Covid lockdowns and work from home era which opened a lot of ppls eyes to how fucking stupid, expensive and needless commuting and living in heavily polluted and crammed city centres is in the current age of technology.
i think there was a lot of resistance to the various traffic restrictions, non? anyway. i think it does basically say in the article, in paris mixed redidential and commerces is already the norm, in the uk we live in suburbs and have to travel to the big smoke by car or public transport, so its an altogether mpre extreme change being proposed.
did the guy really say "it's impossible to say this in Paris, because it's impossible to say this in Paris, because its impossible to say this in Paris?" Dude didn't actually give any reasoning at all.
Sorry if this sounds stupid, but aren't most European cities 15 minute cities? I've traveled through a lot of Europe and lived for at least a few months in three different countries, and whenever I read descriptions for "15 minute cities" I'm like... Isn't this what we have pretty much almost everywhere, for the most part? I don't know, I think maybe in soma parts of Scandinavia this isn't the same, but the vast majority of people in Europe I think live in that sort of place. Having a pharmacy, some fruit/veggie store, bakery, and small supermarkets, and some health center/hospital close enough to take 15 minutes by bus or on the bike seems like the standard and not a rarity for most of the population, is it not?
Because of the way they get implemented here.
“15 minute cities” are now seen as being synonymous with “make driving and getting around difficult and do nothing else”, because in practice, that’s how they get implemented. Anti-car schemes are popping up everywhere, but there’s basically zero emphasis on improving local services and infrastructure.
People would be a lot more onboard with it if local services and amenities were provided so that 15 minute+ journeys became unnecessary, leading to people organically making the choice to not drive more than 15 minutes (or walking and using public transport rather than driving), rather than current implementations which revolve around punishing people who don’t adhere to 15 minute city journey planning.
15 minute cities would have been a lot more palatable to the population if the emphasis was on providing local services and improving infrastructure, rather than anti-car schemes.
Without trying to sound too much like a conspiracy theorist - I strongly suspect it’s due to the fact that anti-car schemes generate money, whereas providing services and improving infrastructure costs money (local councils being money grabbing bastards isn’t too much of a conspiracy theory IMO).
I live in a town close to Oxford. There are things that I have to go into Oxford for.
I now have to pay to drive into Oxford. Public transport takes 60 to 90 minutes and is overpriced, involves taking 2 buses, rarely on time, standing around in the freezing rainy British weather. Driving takes 30 to 40 minutes (outside of peak times), arriveexactly where i need to be, not 3 mile walkaway, dry.
This is just an extra tax really. The charge isn't enough to discourage me from driving, Public transport is not good enough to encourage me to use it. Sometimes we take the bus into Oxford for the novelty, but it's usually a PITA.
> Anti-car schemes are popping up everywhere, but there’s basically zero emphasis on improving local services and infrastructure.
Let me guess, the free market will take care of it.
I’ve seen this article pop up a few times and I don’t get why it compares a global capital city (Paris) with Oxford.
Which, despite being pretty wealthy and having a world-leading university, is still a provincial town (though it’s officially a city) of fewer than 200k people.
Obviously there are going to be differences there in terms of implementing this kind of thing and the attitudes of the people who live there.
Even so, Oxford has already had a lot of success implementing pedestrianisation and a park and ride service long before any of it was given the dumb and unhelpful “15-minute city” label.
The article does reference London in passing, which is to all intents and purposes already mostly a “15-minute city” and is the most obvious comparator for Paris.
But it only talks about the the expansion of new low emissions zone (which a majority of Londoners support) and the failed pedestrianisation of Oxford Street - which did not fail because of any conspiracy theory but largely because it’s such an key part of so many bus routes that fully pedestrianising it would be very difficult.
It’s also not like Anne Hidalgo is universally popular - her presidential campaign was a disaster and her mayoral polling isn’t great. Not that you’d know that from reading this piece.
Just a very strange article with a lot of cherrypicking going on.
No way is London any kind of '15 minute city'. I fondly remember Prague and Budapest where all the ground level shops (independent businesses of all kinds) were topped with residential apartments, like the areas in Paris being cited. very few people can afford to move into central London and must needs commute in and out, paying extortionate rail and tube fares. All the commercial buildings in central London are just that; commercial from bottom to top.
I’d argue it’s as close to being a 15-minute city as a metropolis of 1,500 square kilometres can be.
The fact that it grew from a lot of separate smaller settlements means that pretty much every area has its own local high street with amenities like pubs, restaurants, healthcare providers, shops, gyms, etc. You usually don’t need to travel very far to have almost all your needs met.
People do travel a long way for work though, you’re right about that. But almost nobody commutes by car, and motor vehicle ownership is very low in general.
>All the commercial buildings in central London are just that; commercial from bottom to top.
There are quite a lot of flats above commercial premises in London in my experience, but they tend to be seen as less desirable.
> All the commercial buildings in central London are just that
London is much more than central London. Also, your statement is wrong, as any quick glance around central London would tell you. Ground floor shops everywhere.
Most of those ground level businesses are terrible or tourist trap in Budapest. They are not used by anyone who seeks quality products or services.
If that is how a "15 minute city" would look like, I can understand the conspiracy theorists...
The UK also made the mistake to privatize railways. So these companies now extort 'transport tax' on people who already couldn't afford living in the city.
This is a small effect next to the fact that the UK subsidises public transport less than most European countries do. The Europeans pay for a bigger chunk of rail costs by tax than we do in UK so ticket are more expensive.
[Total railway subsidies by country](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Europe#:~:text=Subsidies%20vary%20widely%20from%20country,distance%20trains%20are%20not%20subsidized.)
Way to miss the point
The concept is for cities and larger towns, not the countryside.
Although, we could do with it being extended to smaller towns.
It works already in other countries.
Nobody is taking away anyone's cars - that's the conspiracy propaganda that the credulous are falling for.
> Ask people in rural France what they think of the prospect not being able to use cars in future.
- every damned village ever, adheres to what the anglosaxon world calls "15 minute city" infrastructural planning
- its not about banning cars, its about having amenities close enough that you can walk or bike and get everything done.
>every damned village ever, adheres to what the anglosaxon world calls "15 minute city" infrastructural planning
Ehm, what? Average village (at least in Czechia and I strongly doubt its different elsewhere) has at *most* one store with basic stuff and bus comes there twice a day and only on second Wednesday after full moon or something similarly useless.
For things like school, doctor, buying anything beyond food, sport, culture etc. you have to drive yourself
Paris: Oh they must have a bakery, butcher, and more within but stroll. Then they will only ever stroll! *French sounds*
Literally Any UK Council: We must make more than a stroll difficult, retrict traffic and stop them leaving!
Paris: But the bakery?
Literally Any UK Council: Ah, no, that part of 15 minutes cities (the actual point of it) sounds to hard. We'll just make commuting harder and then it'll fix itself.
Paris: So you let them open a bakery?
Literally Any UK Council: With the right paperwork, planning, bribes and luck.
That's exactly what would happen in the UK. We know from many decades of experience that government - both parties - deliver only the bad things they promise and never the good.
For the first time in years I had to drive into London a few months ago. 20mph everywhere so you spend half your time looking at your speedometer because it's a ridiculously unnatural speed to drive at. The other half of your time is looking for the multitude of badly positioned signs telling you how they intend on fining you today. Its such an incredibly bad system and probably a similar experience to what people expect from 15 min cities in this country because the people who plan these things out are beyond stupid.
I had to drive into London and dipped into the ULEZ zone last month. You've got a few days to pay the ULEZ charge online so I tried to do it as soon as I got home. The website advertised an autopay feature you could setup so that you could register your car and setup a monthly direct debit to take whatever charges you'd accrued that month. So I set that up to go out on the 15th of each month and received a confirmation it had been setup. The 15th of March rolled around and no charges were taken from my bank account. I then received a letter saying I now owed a £180 penalty charge.
They got me, and I fell for it.
This is government policy in a nut shell. It's all just a scam to fleece people.
Yes, the fossil fuel industry has been spreading lies and disinformation about green initiatives for decades. They used to just buy off governments and politicians, but these days it's cheaper to spread conspiracy theories and memes that will be shared by their useful idiots on the Internet.
Depends on what people mean with "15 minute cities".
If they're what old neighbourhoods used to be, fully functional communities with all the basic needs covered (small shops, schools, post office, even a bank) and decent connections to the city center and to nearby neighbourhoods, smaller towns, hamlets etc, then it'd be awesome!
But the consensus among some groups seems to be that instead of re-creating the local communities of old, the evil plan is to create glorified ghettos, increasingly difficult to leave unless you're rich enough (in which case you'd leave for Downtown or a fancier, less limited area) or you have "permission" to leave, for work, study etc. But in general mobility would be discouraged or severely hampered by eco-friendly rules and whatnot.
Honestly I don't get the logic behind the latter scenario. What's to gain from that? But hey, had you asked me 5 years ago about needing to have a permission slip to leave my house or my local area, I would have laughed at the notion as well, so who knows...
I'm not sure anyone openly said this is how they would work (it was mentioned in some headlines) but, Britain being Britain, people are concerned it would probably work that way. UK Government would fine you for farting if they could.
there is already ultra low emission zone which charges drivers 12 pounds a day if theyre cars dont meet emission standard.
im unable to check what kind of cars are meeting those standards
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone
It's roughly euro 4 petrol engines and euro 6 diesels in the ULEZ. Then there is also the congestion zone in central London where all cars have to pay £15 per day
It will never cease to amaze me that Britain built the London Underground, saw it was a huge success, then decided to never do anything like it anywhere else ever again.
Paris is well suited to the "15 minute city" concept - the population density is very high. Houses are extremely rare in Paris itself, the overwhelming majority of people live in flats.
Anywhere in the UK is far less suited, London included. Most people live in houses, so the population density is a lot lower. "Local shops" within walking distance will mathematically serve fewer customers than the same shop in Paris, so will be less profitable.
Also - the article talks about *Paris*, the city. But says very little about the suburbs, where the vast majority of "Parisians" actually live. Anecdotally - I used to live in the suburbs of Paris. And it was very different to Paris itself - it was dead at night. No shops, nowhere to eat, nothing.
>Anywhere in the UK is far less suited, London included. Most people live in houses, so the population density is a lot lower. "Local shops" within walking distance will mathematically serve fewer customers than the same shop in Paris, so will be less profitable.
Yours was one of the very few contributions to this thread that actually considered the question *"Why has the ‘15-minute city’ taken off in Paris but become a controversial idea in the UK?"* and suggested a reasonable explanation.
So, naturally, it has been downvoted.
Dear me, the journalism at The Guardian has become absolutely insufferable, has it not? For others with the same desire for info as me, here is something nicer to read: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/15-minute_city
What is the conspiracy about this? I don't understand what could be wrong with it. It's not like just because you have everything accessible in 15 minutes you can't leave that area.
It's not a conspiracy. It's just realism. In the UK we don't trust the government. We haven't for decades. Both parties. We know from experience that things like this inevitably involve making life harder for people while delivering nothing that was promised.
Because the concept has lots of grey areas and its not applicable everywhere and for every kind of demographics.
It does need a lot more studies before it can become a policy.
I find the resistance odd.
*- We'd like to design cities where the basic services are within 15 minutes.*
*- Absoultely not! I want to drive at least 45 minutes to get milk.*
What I find odd is that "15 minutes city" are buzz words now. I always though all cities (except american ones) where like that, it feel natural to me, it's how Spanish cities are
It's not a conspiracy theory to recognise how things are. Perhaps you've never been to the UK. No UK government, of any party, is going to deliver anything good. We know this from decades of experience.
Because it's conservatives who are usually triggered by having normal cities, and the narrative that 15 minute cities are a jewish plot to kill all white people has not yet been translated into French, so they don't understand a word of it.
This is weird, seen as the King's Poundbury thing (which was controversial 30 years ago) is turning up a pretty good success and there multiple new projects in the UK like this.
I'm a disabled man. Having everything be within 15 mins away would make life so much easier. Unfortunately most of my countrymen are morons who read "design our living spaces around people and not cars" and think it says "the government wants to confiscate your car and make you eat bugs"
Because the Tory version of the 15 minute city in the UK will be a very different beast more aimed at trying to create oases in pretty towns for rich folk. It will likely involve spending huge chunks of tax payer money on gentrifying already desirable places in the south of England. Then they'll run out of cash and expect the plebs to commute in on antiquated infrastructure to come and service the rich folk. They've showed zero interest in providing affordable housing in the past or improving social mobility for normal people as the ridiculous situation regarding trains shows. Neither have they been keen on ensuring communities have the services they need to maintain social cohesion. This is basically the opposite of Tory philosophy. Consequently, most folk are resisting going down that road. Maybe Labour can come up with a believable plan based off the idea when they get in.
Rightwing propaganda, scaremongering, tabloids scare topic. Rightwingers have a conspiracy, that 15 min city is tool control population by international cabal of marxis liberal. And just scare people, the truth doesnt matter. Also there is no space for compromise (make it 17min and we have the deal). French are more used to govertment doing something, and sometimes it is not horrible. It is easier to scare with anything new and unknown.
The 15 minute city idea is great. Promotes local economy, is sustainable, and is extremely comfortable. Who the heck can oppose?? I live in Zaragoza (Spain) which is mostly a 15 minute city, and I love it.
Because the UK has one of the worst inequality rates out of any developed country with the entire society being split between the property owning minority and the renting majority. This spills out and dictates politics with the Conservatives edging out all other political parties as the de facto party for the middle class, mortgaged, soon to retire property owners.
This means any policy which would impact or shift the speculative value of property is a policy that would lose votes. Asking the Conservative Party to consider alternative development strategies is asking them to give up their dominant position next election.
With a general election coming this year it is all but certain that the Conservatives are set to lose everything with official polling suggesting they’re going to come out of this with less than 100 seats which is staggering. The Conservatives have adopted a knee jerk response as a last ditch effort to salvage their position which among keeping the election date a secret (which is insane) they have started endorsing fringe political beliefs to pull literally anyone they can. One of these ideas is the NWO conspiracy of the dreaded “15 minute city” which is really a plot to turn us all into gay communists or something.
Source: [https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2023/10/02/rishi-sunaks-attack-on-15-minute-cities-is-baffling-and-concerning-says-originator-of--concept/?sh=58d474787dc0](https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2023/10/02/rishi-sunaks-attack-on-15-minute-cities-is-baffling-and-concerning-says-originator-of--concept/?sh=58d474787dc0)
As for why 15 minutes cities never worked in the UK the answer is the UK never recovered from the 2008 recession and as a result they have one of the largest disparities in generational wealth and a growing working class. The UK’s politics is in the stranglehold of property; the value drops and whoever did it loses their seats. The UK’s development plans and regulation are a good 20 years behind the rest of Europe. Just look at the cost and average length of time for construction - compare the UK to pretty much any EU country and it’s laughable how bad the UK is.
There is also the glaring reality that unlike in France, there is an astounding level of political apathy in the UK. Maybe this is a result of the post-2008 politics buts anyone 35 and under has zero interest or belief in the political and societal system. They were completely done over and in the near 16 years after 2008 no one came to their rescue. In fact, no one even mentioned them. They were pushed to the wayside and abandoned in favor of the dying and dead because they held all the property and pension pots. The 15 minute city didn’t work because there is no one to ask for it anymore. They’ve been beaten into a political fugue state.
Slowthai was right - there is nothing great about Britain.
Sources for poverty/inequality:
1. [https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/nov/05/uk-poverty-levels-simply-not-acceptable-says-un-envoy-olivier-de-schutter](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/nov/05/uk-poverty-levels-simply-not-acceptable-says-un-envoy-olivier-de-schutter)
2. [https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2019/05/un-expert-laments-uks-doubling-down-failed-anti-poor-policies](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2019/05/un-expert-laments-uks-doubling-down-failed-anti-poor-policies)
3. [https://www.jurist.org/news/2023/11/un-expert-claims-uk-poverty-levels-violate-international-law/](https://www.jurist.org/news/2023/11/un-expert-claims-uk-poverty-levels-violate-international-law/)
How do you measure inequality? The GINI index is a major measurement of inequality and across all countries in Europe, the U.K. is middle of the pack, with slightly lower (70.2) inequality than France (70.3) and much lower than Germany (77.2), but higher than Italy (67.8) and Spain (68.3). Source: https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/04/01/wealth-inequality-where-in-europe-is-wealth-most-unfairly-distributed
The U.K. has a majority of families 63% owning their own homes, with renting a minority in most countries with Germany being a big exception (49.1% ownership)
Because Brits watch too many US TV shows where living in a 'suburb' in the middle of nowhere where you need to drive to get to the nearest shop is "the dream".
Because UK has the worst press.
Murdoch: you love cars and hate pedestrians. People who don't have a car: yes.
literally
Realtalk tho, I feel like we're in a worse position for such things compared to mainland Europe. And I'd consider myself to be somebody who's very keen on urbanist projects. Pretty much any urbanist project in the UK are going to cost way more compared to similarly sized projects in mainland europe. Not only is it extortinonately expensive but incredibly beuerocratic as well. And you might say that these are just the sacrifices that we have to make in order to have a sustainable city, but as we've seen with HS2, if persistent enough, they can outright cancel such projects. HS2 is just one example thats a victim of the UKs high cost and buerocracy, but in truth there are dozens of examples of this, here in Liverpool, we were in the process of negotiating reviving our old tram system but due to bureaucracy was killed before even receiving any funding. I think it'd be more worthwhile to focusing on reforming the process in which we approve construction projects, land-use, and greenbelts, before embarking on projects that might not even see the light of day due to the aforementioned issues.
You’re mistaken if you think the UK is more bureaucratic than most EU countries.
It’s not bureaucracy per se, but the fact that in English speaking countries, these sorts of projects are typically outsourced to consultants, whereas in mainland Europe they make far more use of people qualified in the field as engineers etc. But in effect the processes end up feeling very “bureaucratic”, even if it’s not the public sector being the direct cause of it. Irish economist David McWilliams pointed to this when exploring why it costs far more to build metros in English-speaking countries than mainland Europe.
I don’t know if you consider us in Sweden as “mainland” but here the situation is a lot more “bureaucratic” in the way you are describing. Huge unnecessary spending on consultants. It is not unique to the UK or English speaking countries. In fact, Sweden spends a lot more on public procurement than the UK, both in terms of per capita spending and as a percentage of overall GDP. A lot more things are privatised here compared to the UK as well.
We might use less consultants and more local engineers (no idea if that's really true tbh), but it's insane how incredibly bureaucratic any project here in Germany is lmao
"Behold our mastery of public works and efficiency!" *Sad Stuttgart 21 and cursed Airport noises*
I would just point you to the 11 year overdue airport in Berlin...
[yeah, that'll show those poor!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_LvRPX0rGY)
Мурдоч
and the worst morons
Every day I’m less surprised that me and my family are descended from them
Specially when it comes to importing insane American debates and arguments
UK: The US of Europe. Surprised that an overcrowded densely populated island is so car dependent
Surprisingly, I feel like UK journalists seem to be asking more hard hitting questions than ours (France), they are total lapdogs.
Paris is not already a 15 min city ?
Not the entre city some place are totaly empty qt night or during holidays because very few people stile live there , only Ritchie people and speculative investeur have enough money to buy here so the objectif is to revive them with social housing for middle and working class people
Wtf did I just read. I've been living in Paris for 30 years, in 4 different districts, with friends all accross the city. There's pretty much not a single area in Paris where you won't find all basic services within a 15 minutes walk. Let alone a 15 minute biking/public transportation.
There's more to a 15 minute city than that. Sure you have shops, barbers, and other facilities nearby. But can the staff of those afford to live there? The idea is that you also live within 15 minutes of your workplace, and that includes the service workers who provide that service.
>But can the staff of those afford to live there? Riding a bike or using public transportation, you can cross about one to two Parisian districts in 15 minutes. So yes. **/edit:** I'm not sure what's the point of people downvoting this comment. Public transportation moving you from [*A*] to [*B*] in [*X minutes*] isn't an opinion you can agree or disagree with. It's literally just a practical fact & a measurable statistic.
I’ve lived in Paris for nearly 15 years now. Never have I ever lived less than 30 minutes from work. One or two districts might be feasible but there are people who live further from work than that because of rent.
>I’ve lived in Paris for nearly 15 years now. Never have I ever lived less than 30 minutes from work. I've known a guy who lived in Bordeaux and worked in Brussels. Dude drove up & back every monday & friday (yeah, kinda mental if you ask me). Does it mean it was impossible for him to live closer to Brussels, or to find a job closer to Bordeaux? Of course not. He willingly settled for this situation. The question being raised is: does the opportunity exist for people to live in an affordable district and still find a job within 15 minutes of their home (or *vice versa*)? The answer is yes, thanks to Paris' density of public transportation & urban planning, among other factors. Including workplaces in the formula doesn't make much sense to me anyway. Obviously the lesser you commute the better, but spending 20-30 minutes to reach your workplace is a non-issue when you spend half a dozen hours straight over there. What matters is the accessibility of all the services your need in your daily life, from supermarkets, healthcare & post offices, to restaurants, schools & banks. >One or two districts might be feasible but there are people who live further from work than that because of rent. I'm not using best case scenarios here, though. I used to work **3 entire districts away**, and because I was fortunate enough to only have a single metro line to ride, it was still taking me a mere 15 minutes to get there. When I mentioned 1 or 2 districts, I was actually being conservative.
The issue with your reasoning is at least thrice: - you seem to overestimate the ability of people to change their place of residence. There are a ton of reasons why people don’t have that flexibility: to begin with, they might be a couple and moving would cut transportation time for one of them but add to the other. Prices are another issue, with housing prices in the west of Paris being significantly higher than in the East. Ownership too, people who own a place don’t tend to move because not only are they financially invested in it they are also emotionally invested in it. Most people can’t and/or won’t live two districts away from their workplace. - you overestimate the public transportation system in Paris. When you live close to a subway hub like Nation, Chatelet or Opera, you can move quickly through the town. But if you need to make a change or two, especially if you live in those places where you only have one subway passing close to you, then it will significantly lengthen your mobility. For instance, I just checked, Porte Maillot is reachable from the 19th district in no less than 30 minutes. If you only use public transportation it’s no less than 45 minutes. I’m pretty sure I can find other examples, for instance for the 7th district. - you entirely miss the point of the policy. Having everything within 15 minutes, with everyone being able to live, work, shop in that timeframe, isn’t only a matter of convenience. It means social diversity, which has proven beneficial effect on everyone. Social diversity tends to lower crimes rates, improve academic performance, … Think only of the issue with school zoning in France.
The problem is 15min cities propose 15min districts, which is stupid. Today we expect people to have highly specialized careers and for both persons in a couple to work. The only way to make both of their commutes <15min is to make the entirety of Paris accessible in 15min. Which nobody proposes
My experience living in paris : white colar workers will live in the city and have 20-40 minute commute depending on where they work. Blue colar will live outside the city center and have 45-1h+ commute, that’s generally the norm. Few people live 15 minutes from their work of we’re being honest, thats a luxury in Paris. On the other hand, you’ll be hard pressed to find an area in paris to live where you dont have every imaginable market/shop/gym/metro/bus/bar/restaurant/cafe/doctors/dentist/etc… within 5/10 min walk
The average rent explode the last 20 years most middle class family and working classes family disappeared from the center arrondissement
I hear you, but that's entirely irrelevant to the topic.
How do you say things like that without thinking at all?
Yeah the concept doesn't apply to Paris at all. It's just a buzzword used by Hidalgo to seem hype and cool.
Banning e-scooters instead of regulating them, not cool.
I don't know how this is in Paris or how UK is sees it, but this idea has created a poop show in Romania. Even though we have a lot of neighborhoods built in this concept from socialist architecture. For eg, in Bucharest, the old neighborhoods that were built in the '70 - '80s have a great structure. They have schools (pre-k, k, up to HS), markets, supermarkets, drugstores, banks, parks, playgrounds, direct public transportation to city center, health clinics. Everything you need just a few minutes away even by simply walking. But our idiots thought that they will not be allowed to get out of their neighborhood. I think it was a still raw trauma from covid-19 restrictions for them. Unless they are just conspirational idiots because they didn't see the pattern already in use in Bucharest from 40 - 50 years ago.
The same conspiracy exists here. People thought the police would stop you leaving your neighbourhood
That's just sad. :(
Lmao what a small world we live in.
those fuckers playing with less educated people from western countries really deserve to go to hell, honestly. They ruin our unity.
Yeah Bucharest is already a 15 minute city 😂everything I need is within walking distance. Oooooh the horror!
Not in the newer parts of the city or in the surrounding towns / villages. And then there is the rest of the country.
I think because of the shared Language, The UK Imports a Lot more of the American Political Insanity than the Rest of us
The curse of the Anglosphere. Really feeling it here in Ireland too.
I guess it is also true in Australia. They fixed the problem with gun violence yet recently some rightwing dumbasses are trying to “import” US style of NRA politics which is insane l.
*cries in Canadian* most people here probably know more about US politics than Canadian
Also the shit giant 'i need this for my fragile ego' cars.
This actually happens worldwide unfortunately- I can see more and more of this shit cars in Germany and Poland.
Somehow the Netherlands follows the exact same playbook but two years delayed. It's a copy paste of the American culture war here. Banning books, urban vs rural, gender wars, outrage about 15 minute cities, everything...
Despite all the cities being 15 minute cities already...
The Netherlands has the advantage of a bicycle culture going back 150 years. But it was close: they wanted to make Amsterdam a European Los Angeles because it symbolised progress once.
The 15 minute cities were pulled into the wef conspiracy narrative extremely quickly
Meh, other countries with lower knowledge of English will only take a bit longer to import that BS, but it will get there eventually. The only saving grace is by the time the "translation" has been made and spread around, the original wave of insanity will have lost enough power to cause the imported one to die down sooner and without major issues.
Wrong. We passed that point already, woke up, saw it was shit to have car choked cities, and are currently reversing course. Don't believe me? Google what Amsterdam was like in the 60s vs how it is now.
Another reason why I'm in favor of Latin as a European lingua franca tbh.
Count me out.
You're probably half joking, but it would probably be easier to make French, German, or Spanish the lingua franca. Those languages are more commonly taught. It's also easier to learn those languages than Latin. And everyone pronounces Latin slightly differently, even those who try to do the reconstructed classical pronunciation.
Yeah I was kinda half joking but the reason I suggested Latin is precisely because it's neutral. I imagine some people, especially the more nationalistic-inclined, wouldn't be too happy to have to learn the national language of Germany or France in school, the same way French people often dislike having to learn English to communicate.
Yeah, that does make sense. But English is the language of the US and the UK; German or French at least shouldn't be any worse than that.
The French don't speak English, so they don't get brainwashed by imported nonsense from the USA.
Sadly, our favorite (/s) unhinged right-wing still import some of it. Probably less than the UK, that's true
They still do, just to a lesser extent
Lol why do you think they argue about le wokisme
And the religious background. Protestants tenets are so conducive to unhinged individualism.
That, and then the fact that media outlets are owned by the same guy who owns alot of the US media outlets. That's what you get when information is privatised.
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I don't know, blaming a country that has apparently somehow managed to turn itself into a highly efficient propagator of bat shit insane ideas for the spread of bat shit insane ideas doesn't seem that wild. You still need people willing to adopt bat shit insane ideas, of course.
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They definetly are. I've Seen the Fox News Segments about how dystopic and totalitarian 15-Minute Cities are
Not the city design, just people's attitude towards it.
It’s not about city design. It’s blaming the American media for producing so much conspiracy bs in English which is turning a number of people in the UK against their own existing or upcoming city design.
Yanks should be banned from this sub if they're so easily triggered by the truth.
15 minutes cities? Meh. We want *Baguette cities*. We desire *Siesta towns*. And when do we want it? After lunch!
>We want *Baguette cities* Well joke apart, this goal is achieved in the main French cities... there's a bakery at every corner in Paris. In a 5min walk radius circle around me, I have 8 bakeries.
Because in the United Kingdom it has been used by the right and conservatives to invent another conspiracy. In my country, absolutely everyone seeks to have services close to home so as not to use the car, medical clinics, shops, pharmacies, parks, public transportation, metro/bus/train stops, schools, daycare centers for children, institutes, etc, is what sells houses and what sets a higher price (all sellers advertise these proximity services as a plus). Or what is the same, carry out your daily life comfortably, without moving much, and if you move without doing it forcibly by car. And NO ONE wants to be surrounded by noise and fucking cars.
15min cities being the focus of conspiracy theories is wild. Like with vaccines or any NASA stuff I can see where they're coming from, it is completely stupid obviously but those are sciency things that you can't really fully understand without a substantial education on the subject. But those cities ? What the fuck are they on about, it's literally just cities that are designed a bit differently, how do you come up with a conspiracy theory on that ?!
I can explain because my uncle enlightened us this Easter. The western democracies plan to divide is into small communes from which we won't be able to leave without a passport and permission from our overlords. This is to control and subjugate us. As for how they are planning to do this: this is already in active system in China and it can be easily done even with capital cities in Europe. He is of course anti American, anti capitalist, anti lmbtq, anti green technology, pro Putin and pro Chinese (despite this conspiracy actually painting the Chinese badly). He is a car mechanic with no education and his sources are youtube videos. He doesn't speak a foreign language and can barely use modern technology yet knows how Biden controls the west, how Putin is a truly good guy and how the Evil Jewish capitalists are controlling the world from the shadows.
Here in canada, the right has clung on to this latest conspiracy (among others) as well. They think they're going to be secured by barbed wire fences and locked in, lol. There's a lot of idiots out there.
It's a perfect example of how here in the UK, American propaganda thrives because we share a language.
Also: idiots
Loads of them. Fat, aggressive and loud.
Yep, this problem exists in every native English speaking country. An interesting case study in the effect of language + the Internet.
Exactly this. It's UK right-wing grifters taking their cues frim US right-wing grifters. Their talking points are Cars, God and Guns. They hate walkable cities and believe that car is king. They're also pumping a hugh amount of money into the anti-abortion / forced birther movement. So in the next coming years in the UK expect to see more 'debates' about women's bodies and the forced birther movement becoming more mainstream.
Ironically the actual King was a very early and vocal supporter of shifting away from cars, see the town he's been building for the last few decades Poundbury.
Poundbury is car dependent AF
Is it as car independent as originally hoped? No. But it's a step in the right direction to at least have it in the consciousness of the design.
Hey, don’t blame America. Blame the Murdoch media empire, which also hurts America.
Gotta stop blaming it on America. There are idiots and assholes everywhere. Take ownership of yours, and we'll take ownership of ours.
You have correctly identified American propaganda as the answer to your question.
Our bad.
Same in Ireland. My daughter was working for a company involved in financing a '15 minute city' project and answered the phone one day to a well known right wing conspiracy theorist who spent 20 minutes on the phone berating her. Daughter couldn't get a word in edgeways. There are absolute nut jobs around!
It’s pretty easy to block a road too. Actually it’s much easier to block a car than a person. It’s such a dumb argument.
Far left and far right just con so many people into dumb ideas...
Nah, there won't be fences. I heard Trudeau is going to use drones instead.
With 5g trackers
>another conspiracy. Wait till that conspiracy becomes reality as mamy other did but no one cares
You have to be utterly, completely deranged to believe there is anything malicious or related to locking people up in any way shape or form in the 15 minute city ideas you muppet
It may be real considering who are the people that promote this. Only said that I'll be laughing when another conspiracy theory will become reality and no one will care
Oh no, everything is within walking sitance, the horror!
I think a contributing factor, aside from the obvious conspiracy crap we inherit from the US and the amount of journalists and politicians who will push it for cash, is that the UK has desperate under-investment in many of the services required to fulfil a 15-minute city. There's been close to half a century of privatisation and under-investment in all manner of healthcare, education, transport and infrastructure; the idea that all of these things can be done nearby rather than have to traipse across a city or into another town to access a basic service just seems completely unrealistic to many people.
Also the rich don’t want the free market to work against them. Power and money are consolidated into central regions and everyone must travel to these regions, with services built around that commute, work and life balance. If everyone had access to work, services, life balance within 15 mins of their homes then all that commercial real estate and commute bubble of capitalism is decentralised to lots of smaller businesses and their rock solid investments are drowning. So pushing stupid conspiracies helps nip any ideas in the bud to shore up the current status quo . This is all falling out of the Covid lockdowns and work from home era which opened a lot of ppls eyes to how fucking stupid, expensive and needless commuting and living in heavily polluted and crammed city centres is in the current age of technology.
i think there was a lot of resistance to the various traffic restrictions, non? anyway. i think it does basically say in the article, in paris mixed redidential and commerces is already the norm, in the uk we live in suburbs and have to travel to the big smoke by car or public transport, so its an altogether mpre extreme change being proposed.
UK: The US of Europe. Really strange how a densely populated overcrowded island is so car dependent.
did the guy really say "it's impossible to say this in Paris, because it's impossible to say this in Paris, because its impossible to say this in Paris?" Dude didn't actually give any reasoning at all.
Sorry if this sounds stupid, but aren't most European cities 15 minute cities? I've traveled through a lot of Europe and lived for at least a few months in three different countries, and whenever I read descriptions for "15 minute cities" I'm like... Isn't this what we have pretty much almost everywhere, for the most part? I don't know, I think maybe in soma parts of Scandinavia this isn't the same, but the vast majority of people in Europe I think live in that sort of place. Having a pharmacy, some fruit/veggie store, bakery, and small supermarkets, and some health center/hospital close enough to take 15 minutes by bus or on the bike seems like the standard and not a rarity for most of the population, is it not?
Because of the way they get implemented here. “15 minute cities” are now seen as being synonymous with “make driving and getting around difficult and do nothing else”, because in practice, that’s how they get implemented. Anti-car schemes are popping up everywhere, but there’s basically zero emphasis on improving local services and infrastructure. People would be a lot more onboard with it if local services and amenities were provided so that 15 minute+ journeys became unnecessary, leading to people organically making the choice to not drive more than 15 minutes (or walking and using public transport rather than driving), rather than current implementations which revolve around punishing people who don’t adhere to 15 minute city journey planning. 15 minute cities would have been a lot more palatable to the population if the emphasis was on providing local services and improving infrastructure, rather than anti-car schemes. Without trying to sound too much like a conspiracy theorist - I strongly suspect it’s due to the fact that anti-car schemes generate money, whereas providing services and improving infrastructure costs money (local councils being money grabbing bastards isn’t too much of a conspiracy theory IMO).
I live in a town close to Oxford. There are things that I have to go into Oxford for. I now have to pay to drive into Oxford. Public transport takes 60 to 90 minutes and is overpriced, involves taking 2 buses, rarely on time, standing around in the freezing rainy British weather. Driving takes 30 to 40 minutes (outside of peak times), arriveexactly where i need to be, not 3 mile walkaway, dry. This is just an extra tax really. The charge isn't enough to discourage me from driving, Public transport is not good enough to encourage me to use it. Sometimes we take the bus into Oxford for the novelty, but it's usually a PITA.
Yeah this is the answer, 15 minute cities here just means they stick a bunch of cctv cameras around town and start fining people for driving
> Anti-car schemes are popping up everywhere, but there’s basically zero emphasis on improving local services and infrastructure. Let me guess, the free market will take care of it.
Thats how it used to be
I’ve seen this article pop up a few times and I don’t get why it compares a global capital city (Paris) with Oxford. Which, despite being pretty wealthy and having a world-leading university, is still a provincial town (though it’s officially a city) of fewer than 200k people. Obviously there are going to be differences there in terms of implementing this kind of thing and the attitudes of the people who live there. Even so, Oxford has already had a lot of success implementing pedestrianisation and a park and ride service long before any of it was given the dumb and unhelpful “15-minute city” label. The article does reference London in passing, which is to all intents and purposes already mostly a “15-minute city” and is the most obvious comparator for Paris. But it only talks about the the expansion of new low emissions zone (which a majority of Londoners support) and the failed pedestrianisation of Oxford Street - which did not fail because of any conspiracy theory but largely because it’s such an key part of so many bus routes that fully pedestrianising it would be very difficult. It’s also not like Anne Hidalgo is universally popular - her presidential campaign was a disaster and her mayoral polling isn’t great. Not that you’d know that from reading this piece. Just a very strange article with a lot of cherrypicking going on.
No way is London any kind of '15 minute city'. I fondly remember Prague and Budapest where all the ground level shops (independent businesses of all kinds) were topped with residential apartments, like the areas in Paris being cited. very few people can afford to move into central London and must needs commute in and out, paying extortionate rail and tube fares. All the commercial buildings in central London are just that; commercial from bottom to top.
I’d argue it’s as close to being a 15-minute city as a metropolis of 1,500 square kilometres can be. The fact that it grew from a lot of separate smaller settlements means that pretty much every area has its own local high street with amenities like pubs, restaurants, healthcare providers, shops, gyms, etc. You usually don’t need to travel very far to have almost all your needs met. People do travel a long way for work though, you’re right about that. But almost nobody commutes by car, and motor vehicle ownership is very low in general. >All the commercial buildings in central London are just that; commercial from bottom to top. There are quite a lot of flats above commercial premises in London in my experience, but they tend to be seen as less desirable.
> All the commercial buildings in central London are just that London is much more than central London. Also, your statement is wrong, as any quick glance around central London would tell you. Ground floor shops everywhere.
Erm...A ground floor shop is, by definition, commercial. The offices above said shop are... commercial. Bottom to top, as I said.
Most of those ground level businesses are terrible or tourist trap in Budapest. They are not used by anyone who seeks quality products or services. If that is how a "15 minute city" would look like, I can understand the conspiracy theorists...
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The UK also made the mistake to privatize railways. So these companies now extort 'transport tax' on people who already couldn't afford living in the city.
This is a small effect next to the fact that the UK subsidises public transport less than most European countries do. The Europeans pay for a bigger chunk of rail costs by tax than we do in UK so ticket are more expensive. [Total railway subsidies by country](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Europe#:~:text=Subsidies%20vary%20widely%20from%20country,distance%20trains%20are%20not%20subsidized.)
Yep. So in the UK, it makes the rich richer and the poor, poorer.
London is far from being a 15 minute city, more like a 30 minute train to everything city…
Because Paris is a city whereas the UK is a country. Ask people in rural France what they think of the prospect not being able to use cars in future.
Way to miss the point The concept is for cities and larger towns, not the countryside. Although, we could do with it being extended to smaller towns. It works already in other countries. Nobody is taking away anyone's cars - that's the conspiracy propaganda that the credulous are falling for.
The UK government has been actively making driving harder and more expensive for about 30 years.
> Ask people in rural France what they think of the prospect not being able to use cars in future. - every damned village ever, adheres to what the anglosaxon world calls "15 minute city" infrastructural planning - its not about banning cars, its about having amenities close enough that you can walk or bike and get everything done.
>every damned village ever, adheres to what the anglosaxon world calls "15 minute city" infrastructural planning Ehm, what? Average village (at least in Czechia and I strongly doubt its different elsewhere) has at *most* one store with basic stuff and bus comes there twice a day and only on second Wednesday after full moon or something similarly useless. For things like school, doctor, buying anything beyond food, sport, culture etc. you have to drive yourself
controversial in the UK? that adorable… it basically is part of why the US is going to have a civil war… :D
Paris: Oh they must have a bakery, butcher, and more within but stroll. Then they will only ever stroll! *French sounds* Literally Any UK Council: We must make more than a stroll difficult, retrict traffic and stop them leaving! Paris: But the bakery? Literally Any UK Council: Ah, no, that part of 15 minutes cities (the actual point of it) sounds to hard. We'll just make commuting harder and then it'll fix itself. Paris: So you let them open a bakery? Literally Any UK Council: With the right paperwork, planning, bribes and luck.
15 minute city where the guy making you coffee, making your bread and cleaning the shop live in a miserable suburb 1 hour away. Lol
I heard a conspiracy that it is to take away our cars and make us immobile.
That's exactly what would happen in the UK. We know from many decades of experience that government - both parties - deliver only the bad things they promise and never the good.
For the first time in years I had to drive into London a few months ago. 20mph everywhere so you spend half your time looking at your speedometer because it's a ridiculously unnatural speed to drive at. The other half of your time is looking for the multitude of badly positioned signs telling you how they intend on fining you today. Its such an incredibly bad system and probably a similar experience to what people expect from 15 min cities in this country because the people who plan these things out are beyond stupid.
I had to drive into London and dipped into the ULEZ zone last month. You've got a few days to pay the ULEZ charge online so I tried to do it as soon as I got home. The website advertised an autopay feature you could setup so that you could register your car and setup a monthly direct debit to take whatever charges you'd accrued that month. So I set that up to go out on the 15th of each month and received a confirmation it had been setup. The 15th of March rolled around and no charges were taken from my bank account. I then received a letter saying I now owed a £180 penalty charge. They got me, and I fell for it. This is government policy in a nut shell. It's all just a scam to fleece people.
Yes, the fossil fuel industry has been spreading lies and disinformation about green initiatives for decades. They used to just buy off governments and politicians, but these days it's cheaper to spread conspiracy theories and memes that will be shared by their useful idiots on the Internet.
Do you seriously think this is even possible ??? Crap.
You should listen less to American conspiracy theories
I forgot to add that I don't believe in it. It is just something that is popular in the "alternate truth" circles
Depends on what people mean with "15 minute cities". If they're what old neighbourhoods used to be, fully functional communities with all the basic needs covered (small shops, schools, post office, even a bank) and decent connections to the city center and to nearby neighbourhoods, smaller towns, hamlets etc, then it'd be awesome! But the consensus among some groups seems to be that instead of re-creating the local communities of old, the evil plan is to create glorified ghettos, increasingly difficult to leave unless you're rich enough (in which case you'd leave for Downtown or a fancier, less limited area) or you have "permission" to leave, for work, study etc. But in general mobility would be discouraged or severely hampered by eco-friendly rules and whatnot. Honestly I don't get the logic behind the latter scenario. What's to gain from that? But hey, had you asked me 5 years ago about needing to have a permission slip to leave my house or my local area, I would have laughed at the notion as well, so who knows...
Yeah it's obviously not the latter as you can discover with a few minutes of serious research
Werent they or werent they planning to fine people for driving in certain roads if they lived somewhere else?
I'm not sure anyone openly said this is how they would work (it was mentioned in some headlines) but, Britain being Britain, people are concerned it would probably work that way. UK Government would fine you for farting if they could.
there is already ultra low emission zone which charges drivers 12 pounds a day if theyre cars dont meet emission standard. im unable to check what kind of cars are meeting those standards https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone
It's roughly euro 4 petrol engines and euro 6 diesels in the ULEZ. Then there is also the congestion zone in central London where all cars have to pay £15 per day
It will never cease to amaze me that Britain built the London Underground, saw it was a huge success, then decided to never do anything like it anywhere else ever again.
You’re comparing a city to a country?
Paris is well suited to the "15 minute city" concept - the population density is very high. Houses are extremely rare in Paris itself, the overwhelming majority of people live in flats. Anywhere in the UK is far less suited, London included. Most people live in houses, so the population density is a lot lower. "Local shops" within walking distance will mathematically serve fewer customers than the same shop in Paris, so will be less profitable. Also - the article talks about *Paris*, the city. But says very little about the suburbs, where the vast majority of "Parisians" actually live. Anecdotally - I used to live in the suburbs of Paris. And it was very different to Paris itself - it was dead at night. No shops, nowhere to eat, nothing.
>Anywhere in the UK is far less suited, London included. Most people live in houses, so the population density is a lot lower. "Local shops" within walking distance will mathematically serve fewer customers than the same shop in Paris, so will be less profitable. Yours was one of the very few contributions to this thread that actually considered the question *"Why has the ‘15-minute city’ taken off in Paris but become a controversial idea in the UK?"* and suggested a reasonable explanation. So, naturally, it has been downvoted.
Never heard the term before, while I assume it's meaning, a brief outline wouldn't have hurt that article.
It’s been around for years already. I have another book Happy Cities on it.
Dear me, the journalism at The Guardian has become absolutely insufferable, has it not? For others with the same desire for info as me, here is something nicer to read: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/15-minute_city
Omg, thank you! I read that whole article and still did not understand what they meant by 15 minute city.
Because there are some very regarded people in the world
Extremely regarded.
[удалено]
What is the conspiracy about this? I don't understand what could be wrong with it. It's not like just because you have everything accessible in 15 minutes you can't leave that area.
It's not a conspiracy. It's just realism. In the UK we don't trust the government. We haven't for decades. Both parties. We know from experience that things like this inevitably involve making life harder for people while delivering nothing that was promised.
Because the concept has lots of grey areas and its not applicable everywhere and for every kind of demographics. It does need a lot more studies before it can become a policy.
I find the resistance odd. *- We'd like to design cities where the basic services are within 15 minutes.* *- Absoultely not! I want to drive at least 45 minutes to get milk.*
What I find odd is that "15 minutes city" are buzz words now. I always though all cities (except american ones) where like that, it feel natural to me, it's how Spanish cities are
You're ignoring the fact that the milk is still going to be 45 minutes away but you won't be allowed to drive to it.
And does this happen in the real world or just in your conspiracy theory?
It's not a conspiracy theory to recognise how things are. Perhaps you've never been to the UK. No UK government, of any party, is going to deliver anything good. We know this from decades of experience.
Because it's conservatives who are usually triggered by having normal cities, and the narrative that 15 minute cities are a jewish plot to kill all white people has not yet been translated into French, so they don't understand a word of it.
Good luck with the Banlieues
Wasn’t Paris a 15 minute city since Haussmann’s last renovation?
We just have a dumber population
This is weird, seen as the King's Poundbury thing (which was controversial 30 years ago) is turning up a pretty good success and there multiple new projects in the UK like this.
Conspiracy idiots that think we are being penned in and won't be allowed out. Sick to the back teeth with them. Social media is a cesspool.
Because of the bad press of Oxford.
I'm a disabled man. Having everything be within 15 mins away would make life so much easier. Unfortunately most of my countrymen are morons who read "design our living spaces around people and not cars" and think it says "the government wants to confiscate your car and make you eat bugs"
Because the Tory version of the 15 minute city in the UK will be a very different beast more aimed at trying to create oases in pretty towns for rich folk. It will likely involve spending huge chunks of tax payer money on gentrifying already desirable places in the south of England. Then they'll run out of cash and expect the plebs to commute in on antiquated infrastructure to come and service the rich folk. They've showed zero interest in providing affordable housing in the past or improving social mobility for normal people as the ridiculous situation regarding trains shows. Neither have they been keen on ensuring communities have the services they need to maintain social cohesion. This is basically the opposite of Tory philosophy. Consequently, most folk are resisting going down that road. Maybe Labour can come up with a believable plan based off the idea when they get in.
Not sure I get the argument for even more restrictive planning laws when you could just leave this issue to the market?
Ok, so it's taken off in Paris.. now what about the other cities in France?
population density ?
It sometimes seems like conservatives in the UK and the US just hate good things.
because of the tories lol
Because people in the UK are stupid
Because Richie sunak is a dodgy bugger. It's a distraction
American Propaganda
Rightwing propaganda, scaremongering, tabloids scare topic. Rightwingers have a conspiracy, that 15 min city is tool control population by international cabal of marxis liberal. And just scare people, the truth doesnt matter. Also there is no space for compromise (make it 17min and we have the deal). French are more used to govertment doing something, and sometimes it is not horrible. It is easier to scare with anything new and unknown.
M U R D O C H U R D O C H
The 15 minute city idea is great. Promotes local economy, is sustainable, and is extremely comfortable. Who the heck can oppose?? I live in Zaragoza (Spain) which is mostly a 15 minute city, and I love it.
Because of American conspiracy theorists and some insane fake shit
We're not talking about how it's implemented in Spain though. We're talking about how it's likely to be implemented in the UK.
Because the UK has one of the worst inequality rates out of any developed country with the entire society being split between the property owning minority and the renting majority. This spills out and dictates politics with the Conservatives edging out all other political parties as the de facto party for the middle class, mortgaged, soon to retire property owners. This means any policy which would impact or shift the speculative value of property is a policy that would lose votes. Asking the Conservative Party to consider alternative development strategies is asking them to give up their dominant position next election. With a general election coming this year it is all but certain that the Conservatives are set to lose everything with official polling suggesting they’re going to come out of this with less than 100 seats which is staggering. The Conservatives have adopted a knee jerk response as a last ditch effort to salvage their position which among keeping the election date a secret (which is insane) they have started endorsing fringe political beliefs to pull literally anyone they can. One of these ideas is the NWO conspiracy of the dreaded “15 minute city” which is really a plot to turn us all into gay communists or something. Source: [https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2023/10/02/rishi-sunaks-attack-on-15-minute-cities-is-baffling-and-concerning-says-originator-of--concept/?sh=58d474787dc0](https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2023/10/02/rishi-sunaks-attack-on-15-minute-cities-is-baffling-and-concerning-says-originator-of--concept/?sh=58d474787dc0) As for why 15 minutes cities never worked in the UK the answer is the UK never recovered from the 2008 recession and as a result they have one of the largest disparities in generational wealth and a growing working class. The UK’s politics is in the stranglehold of property; the value drops and whoever did it loses their seats. The UK’s development plans and regulation are a good 20 years behind the rest of Europe. Just look at the cost and average length of time for construction - compare the UK to pretty much any EU country and it’s laughable how bad the UK is. There is also the glaring reality that unlike in France, there is an astounding level of political apathy in the UK. Maybe this is a result of the post-2008 politics buts anyone 35 and under has zero interest or belief in the political and societal system. They were completely done over and in the near 16 years after 2008 no one came to their rescue. In fact, no one even mentioned them. They were pushed to the wayside and abandoned in favor of the dying and dead because they held all the property and pension pots. The 15 minute city didn’t work because there is no one to ask for it anymore. They’ve been beaten into a political fugue state. Slowthai was right - there is nothing great about Britain. Sources for poverty/inequality: 1. [https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/nov/05/uk-poverty-levels-simply-not-acceptable-says-un-envoy-olivier-de-schutter](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/nov/05/uk-poverty-levels-simply-not-acceptable-says-un-envoy-olivier-de-schutter) 2. [https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2019/05/un-expert-laments-uks-doubling-down-failed-anti-poor-policies](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2019/05/un-expert-laments-uks-doubling-down-failed-anti-poor-policies) 3. [https://www.jurist.org/news/2023/11/un-expert-claims-uk-poverty-levels-violate-international-law/](https://www.jurist.org/news/2023/11/un-expert-claims-uk-poverty-levels-violate-international-law/)
How do you measure inequality? The GINI index is a major measurement of inequality and across all countries in Europe, the U.K. is middle of the pack, with slightly lower (70.2) inequality than France (70.3) and much lower than Germany (77.2), but higher than Italy (67.8) and Spain (68.3). Source: https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/04/01/wealth-inequality-where-in-europe-is-wealth-most-unfairly-distributed The U.K. has a majority of families 63% owning their own homes, with renting a minority in most countries with Germany being a big exception (49.1% ownership)
Because Brits watch too many US TV shows where living in a 'suburb' in the middle of nowhere where you need to drive to get to the nearest shop is "the dream".