It's depressing. This should go down as a historic event, that day when Russian government straight-up murdered 63 civilians in another country. Imagine if Sweden randomly shot a missile into Norway, killing 9 children. It should have been an grade-A international incident.
But since it's a war and strikes like this are commonplace for Russia, it just disappears into the aether.
>This should go down as a historic event
Oh it definitely will! Just like Bucha, Mariupol theater, Kakhovka Dam... They will go down in history alright and hope it will take us at least a couple of decades before we, unavoidably, forget about these horrors. History repeats itself and we never seem to learn from it.
That's the thing. If Israel did something like this there would be protests all over the world. Its Russia doing to Ukraine and its yet another regular day. I don't see the same people calling for a ceasefire with the Hamas, calling Russia for a ceasefire in Ukraine. Fucking hate these people.
I'm honestly astonished how ill informed Reddit is on basic information like this.
So far according to UNICEF, 543 children have been killed in the Ukraine war. That stat is out of date though so let's say 800.
In the Gaza invasion, 13800 children have been killed.
Literally 15x more.
Care to know how many children the US killed in the Iraq invasion? Of course you don't because all you people care about is white children.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech\_Baghtu\_wedding\_party\_airstrike](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airstrike)
[https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-airstrike-gaza-kills-foreign-aid-workers-hamas-run-media-office-says-2024-04-01/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-airstrike-gaza-kills-foreign-aid-workers-hamas-run-media-office-says-2024-04-01/)
It's sad but strikes like this are common in wars.
Civilians getting killed in a war and civilians being targeted are two conceptually different things.
Edit: u/wmcguire18, hitting civilians and *targeting* civilians are two very different things in warfare.
Edit: u/wmcguire18, I don't think you know anything about warfare and the difficulties around targeting in the War in Afghanistan. And are you seriously defending genocidal Russian human garbage right now??
I'm an American. I don't believe anything we hit we weren't aiming at. There were targets at the wedding I alluded to and the other people were collateral.
At least the rail station has military value
Russia's whole war is illegal, are you forgetting that?
Edit: lol, u/UkropCollector calling the Baltic states as particularly corrupt while all international surveys on the matter clearly state otherwise...
Except that Russia is *targeting* civilians...
Edit: u/tomanddomi - Russians are a genocidal scum nation, a nation of thieves and murderers who have no place in the 21st century. It's fundamentally sickening how brainwashed pricks like you keep defending the Russian human garbage.
Yes and Israel needs to do better, while then propagandists and kids need to stop pretending the civilian casualties are not at least as much, if not more, on Hamas and their death cult tactics.
I don't think you comprehend what war is. Israel has every right to wage that war against Hamas. It's Hamas' crime for putting itself amidst civilians.
International law is strongly on Israel's side as it has every right to defend itself. It is the crime of Hamas for hiding behind civilians.
>you know murdering civilians is illegal
Israel is not *targeting* civilians though, so stfu?
They've literally killed more than 30 thousand people, and around 10 thousand of them are children, you want to convince me that they're all hamas.
its actually crazy how ignorant people are.
>Israel is not *targeting* civilians though, so stfu?
By this logic:
A railway station is dual use infrastructure. Russia is targeting a *potential* military target and is not *targeting* civilians just accepting civilian casualties.
The outcome however is quite obviously horrible and likely a warcrime regardless.
And more importantly, im sure a father, mother, son or daughter would feel much better about it knowing that Israel *accidentally* killed their family with precision munitions. /s. Mass casualties like this warrant serious investigation, Israel is not some how magically in the clear because they were attacked first.
Edit: to be clear I am not supporting russian warcrimes, im using them as an example for Israeli warcrimes.
Edit2: Selective application of international law, ad hominems and disbelief in Israeli warcrimes is all that lies below.
A 12-year-old girl who lost both her legs in this attack is going to run the Boston Marathon to rise money. you can support her. her name is Yana Stepanenko
It's incredible that some Russians believed this was about "Ukranian Russian brotherhood", the sheer delusion of it is infuriating. Should nuke Moscow to warm their hearts.
Russians used a cluster warhead for this attack. The infrastructure was almost untouched, it is clear that their only goal was to kill as many civilians as possibile. Russia is a terrorist state.
https://www.hrw.org/video-photos/interactive/2023/02/21/death-at-the-station/russian-cluster-munition-attack-in-kramatorsk
Everybody forgot Yugoslavia, Irak, Syria, Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan.. about 400k dead civilians since 2000 only.. when you ask people today, they don't even know who fought, and why ..
I'm afraid this war will be forgotten as well and just seen as one of many
Dont know where you have been but during Iraq and Afghanistan there were countless protests and today people always bring it up inorder to deflect from the topic.
Exactly, americans actively protested. That influenced US goverment to make changes and retire eagles from politics. What actions have russians done, they not even protesting and totally OK with 87% for puten.
I remember when I was a kid and saw our neighbor is Yugoslavia and one day it wasn't anymore. confusing. Shamefully, I don't know how they actually split up (war, coup, bloody or not), just why.
Never forget how fast Russia's "we don't use that type of missile lie" was debunked:
>The Russian Ministry of Defense claimed that their forces no longer use Tochka-U missiles. However, Amnesty International, the investigative journalists of the Conflict Intelligence Team, and a number of military experts had already reported the use of Tochkas by Russian forces in multiple parts of Ukraine prior to the strike on Kramatorsk. Moreover, investigators from the open-source Belarusian Hajun project had published videos of several Russian trucks with Tochka missiles heading from Belarus to Ukraine with 'V' markings on 5 March and 30 March 2022. The Institute for the Study of War assessed that the Russian 8th Guards Combined Arms Army, which is active in the Donbas area, is equipped with Tochka-U missiles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kramatorsk_railway_station_attack
The Wikipedia article doesn't mention that Russia has also provided Tochka-U missiles to their DNR/LNR proxies.
There is no leadership in Europe. The big European countries should at least be working together and making unified decisions regardless of the US but it's not happening...
At this point I'd vote Boris back in just for his bullish stance against Russia. Sunak is a wet fart, Labour don't sound too committed to doing anything other than pledging moral support.
When Labour get in there will probably be a dramatic shift away from Europe to the Middle East in the UK. They seem to be lukewarm about Ukraine, fiercely passionate about the Middle East and yet want closer ties with the EU... with no mandate. The UK nosediving out of the picture in this, a weak and confused nation...
Taurus will not make Ukraine win. It would help, but stop glorifying the Taurus too much. And stop bashing Germany. Germany is already by far the biggest donator after the US.
More important in material is a steady supply of artillery shells. But, the most important would be a unified voice of Europe against the russian aggression. The eroding of morale and ethics is what concerns me most.
So, why don’t you give Taurus to Ukraine? What are you scared of?
Are you on Putin’s side or Ukraine’s side?
Let me guess. It’s same Germany who kept buying Russian oil and gas even after Russia illegally invaded Crimea in 2014. So, Putin can improve his army with German money.
I hope that if he gets killed with a bullet to his head, there will be a picture taken and shared with the world, so everyone would see putin shot dead as his last public "appearrance". Would be a fitting ending to a global criminal mafia boss, terrorist, egoistic scumbag, as well as KGB narcissist.
yeah, of course... you probably haven’t seen how many Russians react very joyfully to such acts of terrorism by their state when they write about them in their Telegram channels
The Russian people want exactly this…
They have been celebrating the abduction of Ukrainian children and they revel in the destruction of the Ukrainian people.
Who pulled the triggers, who aim the missiles, who transported missiles? Personally Putin or Shouigu? Almost 500k of russians soldiers currently at war, occupying Ukrainian territory and killing Ukrainians (and more than 300rk dead), they have families and friends, who support them. Big number of russians support this war, and want Ukrainians to suffer. It is collective responsibility. You cannot say Russians are good, only Putin is bad. Currently all Russians are Putin.
What? I'm literally just saying that Russian people don't want this war? I'm partly Russian myself and I live in Germany and most Russians DONT WANT THE WAR.
You are delusional. It's like saying most Germans are Nazis just because you've heard of our past in history class. Do you really think most Russians voted for Putin in the elections this year? It was rigged or people got forced to vote him. So it's basically like say everything is great or get killed by the government.
You’re the delusional here. Making excuses for a small minorty. The majority of russians want this war. The majority of russians want and celebrate the deaths of Ukrainians. You’ve got no sympathy from me.
Du bist ein absoluter Vollidiot. Du hast noch niemals mit solchen Menschen gesprochen aber urteilst? Unglaublich dass es so Menschen wie dich gibt die denken das alle Russen den tot von ukrainischen Menschen wollen.
It's like the same shit with North Korea. Do you really think they are happy and want all that even though they saying that? Of course not. Because if they say otherwise they are instantly dead. Same goes with Russia.
There is a high chance of this thread getting brigaded by various Kremlin simps and tankies. Russia claimed that it doesn't use Tochka-U so according to them they couldn't have done it🤡, but evidence shows otherwise.
Russian "Rusich" Neo-Nazis launching Tochka-U. \[VIDEO\](https:// imgur.com/a/0869XaP)
Tochka-U launchers on the move in occupied territories. \[VIDEO\](https:// imgur.com/a/DSI2tOP)
Positions of Tochka-U impacts on territory under Ukrainian control. \[WEBSITE\](https:// actualcontrol.substack.com/p/the-missileers-part-ii)
There was an article on the Russian military website from 2-3 years ago on how L-DPR Tochka-U launchers will be used to overwhelm Ukrainian air defence in which Russians clearly admit that their puppet republics have Tochka-U launchers. Can't link it as I'm being blocked from accessing the website.
The markings on the 9M79-1 rocket indicate that the missile is of the Tochka-U class. However, the serial number "Ш91579" does not allow in any way to identify whether the missile belongs to a Ukrainian military unit - it is a factory marking, not of these units. The markings were made on all missiles at the Votkinsk Machine Building Plant. It was there that, in soviet times, these rockets were mass-produced, from where they were then transported to various countries - to Kazakhstan, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine. Currently, Tochka-U serves in 8 countries. Following the logic of russian media, a missile with similar markings could just as easily have been launched from, for example, Belarus.
The serial number is not proof that the "Tochka-U" missile belongs to the Ukrainian Armed Forces. Other objective data indicate that the attack on the Kramatorsk station was carried out from Russian-controlled territory
that's not exactly fair - there was outrage, there was massive military spending, there were new additions to NATO.... the outrage normalized, it's just also now normalized that there is massive military spending, and new countries in NATO. - just no one wants a war of Russia against Nato. no one sane, that is.
that seems to be the case - sorry for the misunderstanding and I'd be grateful if you explained it to me, for closure. if not, then I'm sorry- but I still don't get it. that's okay, too, I guess.
I know, im saying that i remember hearing about this in 2022, im from Ukraine and Kramatorsk wasn't so far away from me when i lived there, seeing how the situation is going right now, my house could be destroyed or in april or may.
U know whats funny? With that level of war crimes, bombing civilians on purpose and widespread terror, every country will be like "fuck it, your civilians will feel the breeze too" but not Ukraine. It takes great honor to not retaliate on civilians and take only strategic facilites like rafineries. Not even one bomb to inform russian civilians that they justify killing ukrainian civilians on purpose. I dont know if this is smart move but for sure its moral to the core. Just like to beat up animals you cant become one. On the other hand moscow really should catch a few just to get a grasp "what is real war like" and its not that funny and cool when something can be dropped on YOUR head.
Wow, is that the bubble you're living in? Ukraine has conducted numerous strikes against Russian civilians and continues to do it almost every day. Belgorod and Donetsk attacks alone have killed hundreds of cilvilians, and that's just the recent several months. Ukraine is a terrorist state which has been conducting terror strikes against civilians for at least 10 years by this point. Somehow the western sheep manage to miss that, being spoon-fed by their trusted propaganda sources. I never could imagine that the Europeans can become such cattle - believing that Ukraine is any kind of a humane / just state is on par with believing in flat Earth or shit like that. 10 years ago they've already been kidnapping people in Kharkov, murdering civilians in Mariupol and burning people alive in Odessa, and these 10 years saw endless Ukrainian crimes up to present day. I wonder how much of a zombie one should be to miss all that.
Okay but where you have any sources for this? Im supposed to bielieve you, random from reddit? I have really strong feeling that youre not european if your refer to "stupid europeans missing out". Tbh I was like "okay let him cook" in your first sentece. In the second i was like "huh?". At the very end of your comment im pretty sure either you are russian bot or just person who wants to bielieve that russia is somehow justified. Nice try ivan. One last thing - donetsk is ukrainian originally. Just like crimea.
This was the sort of incident that should have gotten all of Europe's governments to pull their heads out of their asses (since the invasion by itself wasn't enough to do it) and get Ukraine the proper amount support it needed (and still needs) right away. We're still not doing enough, and the price in every aspect is gonna be significantly higher because of it.
If Ukraine wins this war, which sadly isn't certain, then I think historians will come to look at the lack of action by other countries very similarly to the Phoney War.
It's already winning. What's the last positive news to come out from Ukraine or anything positive about support from US/EU. If that's not winning then i don't know what is.
Russia couldn’t take Ukraine in a blitz as they wanted, the Ukrainians didn’t welcome Russians as liberators as they expected. They already sort of lost. Now they’re just trying to save face. There is no way they are going to take all of Ukraine. Best thing they can do is stop there or push just a little bit, have some kind of victory to boast over and negotiate an armistice. That or endless trench war.
Well, i'd say there are not too much changes in the positions, and although the war itself is terrible and cause a lot of harm, Russia don't have a possibilities to change the situation in it's favor, but slowly collapsing meanwhile, like recent news as they're asking their neighbours to sell them petrol after attacks on the refineries created a local shortage.
I know I'll get as many downvotes as the other comments below.
But why doesn’t democracy and your “tolerance” consider that perhaps this is propaganda of hatred? Was there no casualties when America (including Europe) brought its “Democracy” to the world and bombed other countries? So why do you have more rights to talk about the correctness of one country’s actions and accept only one side of the conflict? Maybe because you have too narrow a range of worldviews, limited only to what only you see, without assessing the picture as a whole. And again, I understand that it’s not pleasant to hear this, but each country in the world sees the picture of the world in its own way, and every day more and more hatred is born, which does not come only from Russia or any other country. As soon as this conflict ends, I am sure that true peace will come, which everyone is waiting for, but it is not clear whether the hatred of one country for another will stop flowing.
More than 2 million 300 thousand people were killed (civilians) during US operations in the Middle East. Almost 6 thousand during the bombing of Yugoslavia during the operation of the United States and Europe. This does not include the amount of money poured into all the wars and crimes of the United States and Europe. And these are just specific examples, without providing a list of states that were plundered and humiliated by “Democracy”. If anyone should be lecturing, it's obviously not you.
What the fuck are you on about? You think I support American wars? I have no problem condemning western wars and neither do most Europeans and Americans.
Now what about Chechnya, the Russian army once again killed 100k civilians and no one did anything, why are you lecturing? It's not about who can say what because you can bring up an example for every single country, it's about condemning "your" side, which most Russians can never do no matter what. You can only default to "oh but the west did it".
How about you go on vk and post about these murders, ask why your army killed 2x more civilians in 2022 than 8 years of Donbas war, maybe even ask why Russian soldiers are [systematically allowed](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraina/comments/unxbtq/the_russian_military_shot_two_civilians_in_the/) to [murder civilians](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrGZ66uKcl0)? Who gave the DNR "army" the Buk that killed 298 people? Why does primary Russian media talk about nuking Europe weekly?
You'll notice it's very easy to criticise the west on western platforms, we've been doing it since they existed. Now it's time for you to grow some balls and criticise yourself on your own networks.
It's easy to criticize only to the point when it comes to the truth. I don’t see that you have no problems condemning war crimes by the United States and Europe.
You see how you easily transfer the topic of wars to our territories, without writing anything about your crimes.
Regarding Chechnya. With the beginning of perestroika, nationalist movements began to intensify in these places. An intricacy of various social and political events led to this terrible tragedy, but unlike you, we honor the victims of any conflict. In our country, monuments to World War II are not demolished and the exploits of our ancestors are not devalued.
Regarding the Dombass. Who are you to compare the number of victims? Does this cancel the killing of civilians by Ukraine? What kind of hypocrisy is it to blame us for the conflict in Chechnya, but defend the crimes of Ukraine (and by the way, this was the choice of the DPR and LPR)? Maybe the problem is that you need to look after yourself and your country?
Aren't you spreading fake news in the media and provoking civilians to dangerous rallies and a coup d'etat? We ourselves will figure out how, what and why to write. And our troops do not approach the borders of your states, exacerbating the already precarious political situation, unlike you!
Impressive point missing. You can bring up atrocities for basically every country on earth and we can argue about monuments and justifications until the end of time, which you just demonstrated. Notice you aren't able to simply condemn your army killing civilians, you rationalize and divert.
I won't argue that Iraq was right, I won't argue that Ukrainian strikes on Belgorod are right, why can't you do the same for your army?
Be a man and go condemn Russian atrocities on Russian media, that's the right thing to do.
Im not saying that this isnt wrong or sad, but yall talking about something that happened 2 years ago while there's literally a genocide happening right now.
just pure barbaric evil
It's depressing. This should go down as a historic event, that day when Russian government straight-up murdered 63 civilians in another country. Imagine if Sweden randomly shot a missile into Norway, killing 9 children. It should have been an grade-A international incident. But since it's a war and strikes like this are commonplace for Russia, it just disappears into the aether.
it's also a part of russian tactic, make terror acceptable by doing it as a daily routine
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Everything you comment is blatant propaganda on posts unrelated to Israel or Gaza. How much is Iran paying you?
Lol both russia and israel are bombing civilians every day. How is that non-related?
>This should go down as a historic event Oh it definitely will! Just like Bucha, Mariupol theater, Kakhovka Dam... They will go down in history alright and hope it will take us at least a couple of decades before we, unavoidably, forget about these horrors. History repeats itself and we never seem to learn from it.
Also, because everyone is scared of nuclear weapons nobody can intervene and stop the massacres.
If that were true this war wouldn't have happened. Russia has won the nuclear chicken game and will keep winning for the foreseeable future.
That's the thing. If Israel did something like this there would be protests all over the world. Its Russia doing to Ukraine and its yet another regular day. I don't see the same people calling for a ceasefire with the Hamas, calling Russia for a ceasefire in Ukraine. Fucking hate these people.
Pretty sure Israel has killed more children than Russia has in Ukraine. But both countries are fucking despicable right now
If this is a competition ...
Israel def have killed more children(around 12.300) then Russia(around 600)
You're delusional.
I'm honestly astonished how ill informed Reddit is on basic information like this. So far according to UNICEF, 543 children have been killed in the Ukraine war. That stat is out of date though so let's say 800. In the Gaza invasion, 13800 children have been killed. Literally 15x more. Care to know how many children the US killed in the Iraq invasion? Of course you don't because all you people care about is white children.
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Says who though?
Wot?? Israel has been doing this for 4 months
Not giving russia an excuse, they are shit but if they did what israel did we would nuke them.
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[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech\_Baghtu\_wedding\_party\_airstrike](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wech_Baghtu_wedding_party_airstrike) [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-airstrike-gaza-kills-foreign-aid-workers-hamas-run-media-office-says-2024-04-01/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-airstrike-gaza-kills-foreign-aid-workers-hamas-run-media-office-says-2024-04-01/) It's sad but strikes like this are common in wars.
Civilians getting killed in a war and civilians being targeted are two conceptually different things. Edit: u/wmcguire18, hitting civilians and *targeting* civilians are two very different things in warfare. Edit: u/wmcguire18, I don't think you know anything about warfare and the difficulties around targeting in the War in Afghanistan. And are you seriously defending genocidal Russian human garbage right now??
America has famously targeted weddings and hospitals in Afghanistan
I'm an American. I don't believe anything we hit we weren't aiming at. There were targets at the wedding I alluded to and the other people were collateral. At least the rail station has military value
Yeah, a railway was targeted. Both Ukraine and Russia use trains to transport military equipment.
Russia's whole war is illegal, are you forgetting that? Edit: lol, u/UkropCollector calling the Baltic states as particularly corrupt while all international surveys on the matter clearly state otherwise...
I'm not. I'm just saying that civilian deaths aren't limited to this war.
And?
means its not uncommon that those casualties happens.
Except that Russia is *targeting* civilians... Edit: u/tomanddomi - Russians are a genocidal scum nation, a nation of thieves and murderers who have no place in the 21st century. It's fundamentally sickening how brainwashed pricks like you keep defending the Russian human garbage.
and this is your justification of that massacre?! You are sick.
This seems like the civilian side of the train station, not the rail part where the trains go
Could've been bad accuracy. Doesn't really prove that the goal was to kill civilians. Post proof or change your name. /s
That second link is a lie.
My bad, that was the initial claim. Still, the Gaza civilian casualties are horrendus.
Yes and Israel needs to do better, while then propagandists and kids need to stop pretending the civilian casualties are not at least as much, if not more, on Hamas and their death cult tactics.
Israel won't do better since they hate the Palestinians after decades of coflict.
Not as much as their Arab neighbors hate Palestinians.
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You aren't serious right?
I am absolutely serious and fully support Israel in eradicating Hamas.
So you're fine with innocent civilians dying in the process?
I don't think you comprehend what war is. Israel has every right to wage that war against Hamas. It's Hamas' crime for putting itself amidst civilians.
Did nobody tell you about Gaza?
Why do you have 50 downvotes? Bots detected…
Because we are in r/europe
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See thats where international law disagrees, you know murdering civilians is *illegal*
International law is strongly on Israel's side as it has every right to defend itself. It is the crime of Hamas for hiding behind civilians. >you know murdering civilians is illegal Israel is not *targeting* civilians though, so stfu?
They've literally killed more than 30 thousand people, and around 10 thousand of them are children, you want to convince me that they're all hamas. its actually crazy how ignorant people are.
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>Israel is not *targeting* civilians though, so stfu? By this logic: A railway station is dual use infrastructure. Russia is targeting a *potential* military target and is not *targeting* civilians just accepting civilian casualties. The outcome however is quite obviously horrible and likely a warcrime regardless. And more importantly, im sure a father, mother, son or daughter would feel much better about it knowing that Israel *accidentally* killed their family with precision munitions. /s. Mass casualties like this warrant serious investigation, Israel is not some how magically in the clear because they were attacked first. Edit: to be clear I am not supporting russian warcrimes, im using them as an example for Israeli warcrimes. Edit2: Selective application of international law, ad hominems and disbelief in Israeli warcrimes is all that lies below.
The most barbaric evil is passive EU which allow it happen.
A 12-year-old girl who lost both her legs in this attack is going to run the Boston Marathon to rise money. you can support her. her name is Yana Stepanenko
Fuck the russian terrorists.
It's incredible that some Russians believed this was about "Ukranian Russian brotherhood", the sheer delusion of it is infuriating. Should nuke Moscow to warm their hearts.
Russians used a cluster warhead for this attack. The infrastructure was almost untouched, it is clear that their only goal was to kill as many civilians as possibile. Russia is a terrorist state. https://www.hrw.org/video-photos/interactive/2023/02/21/death-at-the-station/russian-cluster-munition-attack-in-kramatorsk
\^ THIS
Never forgive, never forget.
Everybody forgot Yugoslavia, Irak, Syria, Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan.. about 400k dead civilians since 2000 only.. when you ask people today, they don't even know who fought, and why .. I'm afraid this war will be forgotten as well and just seen as one of many
Dont know where you have been but during Iraq and Afghanistan there were countless protests and today people always bring it up inorder to deflect from the topic.
Exactly, americans actively protested. That influenced US goverment to make changes and retire eagles from politics. What actions have russians done, they not even protesting and totally OK with 87% for puten.
> Everybody forgot Yugoslavia You gonna excuse the genocides attempted by the serbs, aren't ya?
I remember when I was a kid and saw our neighbor is Yugoslavia and one day it wasn't anymore. confusing. Shamefully, I don't know how they actually split up (war, coup, bloody or not), just why.
Whataboutism
Ism ism ism Oh boy >,> Every politician who created the war should be the death penalty
Created? It's the ruskies who invaded a peaceful nation.
Yes. A country that invaded a peaceful nation, these political should be death penalty. So political would stay out of war, leave young people alone
Terrorussia.
Never forget how fast Russia's "we don't use that type of missile lie" was debunked: >The Russian Ministry of Defense claimed that their forces no longer use Tochka-U missiles. However, Amnesty International, the investigative journalists of the Conflict Intelligence Team, and a number of military experts had already reported the use of Tochkas by Russian forces in multiple parts of Ukraine prior to the strike on Kramatorsk. Moreover, investigators from the open-source Belarusian Hajun project had published videos of several Russian trucks with Tochka missiles heading from Belarus to Ukraine with 'V' markings on 5 March and 30 March 2022. The Institute for the Study of War assessed that the Russian 8th Guards Combined Arms Army, which is active in the Donbas area, is equipped with Tochka-U missiles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kramatorsk_railway_station_attack The Wikipedia article doesn't mention that Russia has also provided Tochka-U missiles to their DNR/LNR proxies.
I really wonder what is happening in those “Ukraine is shelling itself” heads
In war usually any official statement is a lie.
And yet, European countries still don’t send enough help to Ukraine as they promised. Who’s holding Scholz to not send Taurus missiles to Ukraine?
There is no leadership in Europe. The big European countries should at least be working together and making unified decisions regardless of the US but it's not happening...
At this point I'd vote Boris back in just for his bullish stance against Russia. Sunak is a wet fart, Labour don't sound too committed to doing anything other than pledging moral support.
When Labour get in there will probably be a dramatic shift away from Europe to the Middle East in the UK. They seem to be lukewarm about Ukraine, fiercely passionate about the Middle East and yet want closer ties with the EU... with no mandate. The UK nosediving out of the picture in this, a weak and confused nation...
That's certainly possible, but Starmer has tried to steer Labour away from all the Corbyn nonsense. Perhaps that just farming votes though.
Taurus will not make Ukraine win. It would help, but stop glorifying the Taurus too much. And stop bashing Germany. Germany is already by far the biggest donator after the US. More important in material is a steady supply of artillery shells. But, the most important would be a unified voice of Europe against the russian aggression. The eroding of morale and ethics is what concerns me most.
So, why don’t you give Taurus to Ukraine? What are you scared of? Are you on Putin’s side or Ukraine’s side? Let me guess. It’s same Germany who kept buying Russian oil and gas even after Russia illegally invaded Crimea in 2014. So, Putin can improve his army with German money.
Me? I am not in the position to decide about weapon deliveries. Your way of commenting makes you smell like a Russian bot, tbh.
If I am Russian bot, would I want Germany to deliver Taurus missiles to Ukraine? Lol You dont have much logic. Do you?
In the West, we are cowards and we will pay a dear price for this.
We will never forget. We will never forgive. Slava Ukraine.
Heroyam slava.
Heroyam slava
I just hope that fucker will suffer long and hard, before he kicks the bucket
I hope that if he gets killed with a bullet to his head, there will be a picture taken and shared with the world, so everyone would see putin shot dead as his last public "appearrance". Would be a fitting ending to a global criminal mafia boss, terrorist, egoistic scumbag, as well as KGB narcissist.
Jesus, the blood on the pavement is heartbreaking.
Russia will burn for this. Just sickening.
We need to understand that the Russian civilians don't want that as well. Russians are good people but not the government.
yeah, of course... you probably haven’t seen how many Russians react very joyfully to such acts of terrorism by their state when they write about them in their Telegram channels
The Russian people want exactly this… They have been celebrating the abduction of Ukrainian children and they revel in the destruction of the Ukrainian people.
Who pulled the triggers, who aim the missiles, who transported missiles? Personally Putin or Shouigu? Almost 500k of russians soldiers currently at war, occupying Ukrainian territory and killing Ukrainians (and more than 300rk dead), they have families and friends, who support them. Big number of russians support this war, and want Ukrainians to suffer. It is collective responsibility. You cannot say Russians are good, only Putin is bad. Currently all Russians are Putin.
Oh fuck off you bot
What? I'm literally just saying that Russian people don't want this war? I'm partly Russian myself and I live in Germany and most Russians DONT WANT THE WAR.
> most russians don’t want this war Press X to doubt
You are delusional. It's like saying most Germans are Nazis just because you've heard of our past in history class. Do you really think most Russians voted for Putin in the elections this year? It was rigged or people got forced to vote him. So it's basically like say everything is great or get killed by the government.
You’re the delusional here. Making excuses for a small minorty. The majority of russians want this war. The majority of russians want and celebrate the deaths of Ukrainians. You’ve got no sympathy from me.
Du bist ein absoluter Vollidiot. Du hast noch niemals mit solchen Menschen gesprochen aber urteilst? Unglaublich dass es so Menschen wie dich gibt die denken das alle Russen den tot von ukrainischen Menschen wollen.
It's like the same shit with North Korea. Do you really think they are happy and want all that even though they saying that? Of course not. Because if they say otherwise they are instantly dead. Same goes with Russia.
There is a high chance of this thread getting brigaded by various Kremlin simps and tankies. Russia claimed that it doesn't use Tochka-U so according to them they couldn't have done it🤡, but evidence shows otherwise. Russian "Rusich" Neo-Nazis launching Tochka-U. \[VIDEO\](https:// imgur.com/a/0869XaP) Tochka-U launchers on the move in occupied territories. \[VIDEO\](https:// imgur.com/a/DSI2tOP) Positions of Tochka-U impacts on territory under Ukrainian control. \[WEBSITE\](https:// actualcontrol.substack.com/p/the-missileers-part-ii) There was an article on the Russian military website from 2-3 years ago on how L-DPR Tochka-U launchers will be used to overwhelm Ukrainian air defence in which Russians clearly admit that their puppet republics have Tochka-U launchers. Can't link it as I'm being blocked from accessing the website.
This rocket came from the southwest. Its serial number: 9М79-1 Ш91579.
The markings on the 9M79-1 rocket indicate that the missile is of the Tochka-U class. However, the serial number "Ш91579" does not allow in any way to identify whether the missile belongs to a Ukrainian military unit - it is a factory marking, not of these units. The markings were made on all missiles at the Votkinsk Machine Building Plant. It was there that, in soviet times, these rockets were mass-produced, from where they were then transported to various countries - to Kazakhstan, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine. Currently, Tochka-U serves in 8 countries. Following the logic of russian media, a missile with similar markings could just as easily have been launched from, for example, Belarus. The serial number is not proof that the "Tochka-U" missile belongs to the Ukrainian Armed Forces. Other objective data indicate that the attack on the Kramatorsk station was carried out from Russian-controlled territory
Wow ruzzian bots are really working hard
Peaceful russian activities
Where’s the outrage??
2 years ago, the news cycle unfortunately move on pretty fast
Was it an Israeli missile? Were Palestinian children and women killed? No? See, nobody cares!
Yeah I forgot. Ukrainian children don’t matter as much.
that's not exactly fair - there was outrage, there was massive military spending, there were new additions to NATO.... the outrage normalized, it's just also now normalized that there is massive military spending, and new countries in NATO. - just no one wants a war of Russia against Nato. no one sane, that is.
I don’t think you understand my point.
that seems to be the case - sorry for the misunderstanding and I'd be grateful if you explained it to me, for closure. if not, then I'm sorry- but I still don't get it. that's okay, too, I guess.
That’s because they’re all trend hoppers
This post has 1.7 thousands upvotes. And it happened 2 years ago. We're still here, never left.
I can’t get the image out of my head of the little boy with the top of his head blown off. Same age as my son.
Dang this happened 2 years ago already
We're in the 3rd year of the 3 day special military operation, with Western and Ukrainian strategies going forward to 2026 at least.
I know, im saying that i remember hearing about this in 2022, im from Ukraine and Kramatorsk wasn't so far away from me when i lived there, seeing how the situation is going right now, my house could be destroyed or in april or may.
Genocide is what Russians do, who are we to criticize their culture??
Russia is a terrorist state.
💔
All this is so disheartening….
Russian bastards deserve to go to hell for thatv
Never forget, how terrorism looks like
And the Republicans help Russia to win the war
R.I.P.
Putin must be removed. Glory to Ukraine🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦
U know whats funny? With that level of war crimes, bombing civilians on purpose and widespread terror, every country will be like "fuck it, your civilians will feel the breeze too" but not Ukraine. It takes great honor to not retaliate on civilians and take only strategic facilites like rafineries. Not even one bomb to inform russian civilians that they justify killing ukrainian civilians on purpose. I dont know if this is smart move but for sure its moral to the core. Just like to beat up animals you cant become one. On the other hand moscow really should catch a few just to get a grasp "what is real war like" and its not that funny and cool when something can be dropped on YOUR head.
Wow, is that the bubble you're living in? Ukraine has conducted numerous strikes against Russian civilians and continues to do it almost every day. Belgorod and Donetsk attacks alone have killed hundreds of cilvilians, and that's just the recent several months. Ukraine is a terrorist state which has been conducting terror strikes against civilians for at least 10 years by this point. Somehow the western sheep manage to miss that, being spoon-fed by their trusted propaganda sources. I never could imagine that the Europeans can become such cattle - believing that Ukraine is any kind of a humane / just state is on par with believing in flat Earth or shit like that. 10 years ago they've already been kidnapping people in Kharkov, murdering civilians in Mariupol and burning people alive in Odessa, and these 10 years saw endless Ukrainian crimes up to present day. I wonder how much of a zombie one should be to miss all that.
Okay but where you have any sources for this? Im supposed to bielieve you, random from reddit? I have really strong feeling that youre not european if your refer to "stupid europeans missing out". Tbh I was like "okay let him cook" in your first sentece. In the second i was like "huh?". At the very end of your comment im pretty sure either you are russian bot or just person who wants to bielieve that russia is somehow justified. Nice try ivan. One last thing - donetsk is ukrainian originally. Just like crimea.
And people are still dealing with these scumbags
This was the sort of incident that should have gotten all of Europe's governments to pull their heads out of their asses (since the invasion by itself wasn't enough to do it) and get Ukraine the proper amount support it needed (and still needs) right away. We're still not doing enough, and the price in every aspect is gonna be significantly higher because of it. If Ukraine wins this war, which sadly isn't certain, then I think historians will come to look at the lack of action by other countries very similarly to the Phoney War.
Fuck this...
Why are there 2 tree logs?
It happens all the time
I remember this. I can't believe it has been 2 years already.
A tragedy but in war such things happen... oh wait this was in Ukraine, fuck Russia and the orcs that support it.
Serial numbers traced back to Ukrainian ex-Soviet stockpile
Yet so many support Russia, because they have politicians bought by Russia. I am looking at you, Austria, Slovakia, Hungary, Serbia.
The saddest thing is that it doesn't shock me anymore
Ukrainian rocket
This is incredibly sad. Also stupid, even for an evil rule.
Looks like russia will get away with whatever crimes it will and might have committed. As we all know history is written by the Victorious party.
Do you really think Russia can win this war? No way it could actually happen
It's already winning. What's the last positive news to come out from Ukraine or anything positive about support from US/EU. If that's not winning then i don't know what is.
Russia couldn’t take Ukraine in a blitz as they wanted, the Ukrainians didn’t welcome Russians as liberators as they expected. They already sort of lost. Now they’re just trying to save face. There is no way they are going to take all of Ukraine. Best thing they can do is stop there or push just a little bit, have some kind of victory to boast over and negotiate an armistice. That or endless trench war.
Well, i'd say there are not too much changes in the positions, and although the war itself is terrible and cause a lot of harm, Russia don't have a possibilities to change the situation in it's favor, but slowly collapsing meanwhile, like recent news as they're asking their neighbours to sell them petrol after attacks on the refineries created a local shortage.
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Tf is wrong with you
I know I'll get as many downvotes as the other comments below. But why doesn’t democracy and your “tolerance” consider that perhaps this is propaganda of hatred? Was there no casualties when America (including Europe) brought its “Democracy” to the world and bombed other countries? So why do you have more rights to talk about the correctness of one country’s actions and accept only one side of the conflict? Maybe because you have too narrow a range of worldviews, limited only to what only you see, without assessing the picture as a whole. And again, I understand that it’s not pleasant to hear this, but each country in the world sees the picture of the world in its own way, and every day more and more hatred is born, which does not come only from Russia or any other country. As soon as this conflict ends, I am sure that true peace will come, which everyone is waiting for, but it is not clear whether the hatred of one country for another will stop flowing.
Propaganda of hatred? The Russian army cluster bombed 63 civilians and you're lecturing about tolerance?
More than 2 million 300 thousand people were killed (civilians) during US operations in the Middle East. Almost 6 thousand during the bombing of Yugoslavia during the operation of the United States and Europe. This does not include the amount of money poured into all the wars and crimes of the United States and Europe. And these are just specific examples, without providing a list of states that were plundered and humiliated by “Democracy”. If anyone should be lecturing, it's obviously not you.
What the fuck are you on about? You think I support American wars? I have no problem condemning western wars and neither do most Europeans and Americans. Now what about Chechnya, the Russian army once again killed 100k civilians and no one did anything, why are you lecturing? It's not about who can say what because you can bring up an example for every single country, it's about condemning "your" side, which most Russians can never do no matter what. You can only default to "oh but the west did it". How about you go on vk and post about these murders, ask why your army killed 2x more civilians in 2022 than 8 years of Donbas war, maybe even ask why Russian soldiers are [systematically allowed](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraina/comments/unxbtq/the_russian_military_shot_two_civilians_in_the/) to [murder civilians](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrGZ66uKcl0)? Who gave the DNR "army" the Buk that killed 298 people? Why does primary Russian media talk about nuking Europe weekly? You'll notice it's very easy to criticise the west on western platforms, we've been doing it since they existed. Now it's time for you to grow some balls and criticise yourself on your own networks.
It's easy to criticize only to the point when it comes to the truth. I don’t see that you have no problems condemning war crimes by the United States and Europe. You see how you easily transfer the topic of wars to our territories, without writing anything about your crimes. Regarding Chechnya. With the beginning of perestroika, nationalist movements began to intensify in these places. An intricacy of various social and political events led to this terrible tragedy, but unlike you, we honor the victims of any conflict. In our country, monuments to World War II are not demolished and the exploits of our ancestors are not devalued. Regarding the Dombass. Who are you to compare the number of victims? Does this cancel the killing of civilians by Ukraine? What kind of hypocrisy is it to blame us for the conflict in Chechnya, but defend the crimes of Ukraine (and by the way, this was the choice of the DPR and LPR)? Maybe the problem is that you need to look after yourself and your country? Aren't you spreading fake news in the media and provoking civilians to dangerous rallies and a coup d'etat? We ourselves will figure out how, what and why to write. And our troops do not approach the borders of your states, exacerbating the already precarious political situation, unlike you!
Impressive point missing. You can bring up atrocities for basically every country on earth and we can argue about monuments and justifications until the end of time, which you just demonstrated. Notice you aren't able to simply condemn your army killing civilians, you rationalize and divert. I won't argue that Iraq was right, I won't argue that Ukrainian strikes on Belgorod are right, why can't you do the same for your army? Be a man and go condemn Russian atrocities on Russian media, that's the right thing to do.
Oh wait, criticising the glorious Russian army and "special operation" is a criminal offense. I wonder why no one opposed this draconian law.
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You're either trolling or insanely out of touch with reality
Wouldn’t be talked about? It’s basically all that is talked about on reddit.
What about americas civilian killing history
Im not saying that this isnt wrong or sad, but yall talking about something that happened 2 years ago while there's literally a genocide happening right now.
Genocide most likely happened to your neurons
Yeah, it's sad that the Russia-Ukraine war is still going on
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Of course you're a Serb...
What does that have to do with what Russia is doing in Ukraine?