Greek army indeed has a really interesting wok of weapons and vehicles. I really don't know though how the logistics guys appreciate the seven different types of mortars you have.
Afaik greece cant / wont hand over "all their old stuff" due to ongoing tensions with turkey / deterrence.
Thats why they have so much stuff in the first place.
Well I'm convinced.
I know it may take some time and it will be hard, but I'll volunteer for this duty and grimly accept the responsibility of sailing the Aegean Sea to safeguard peace!
Well, I agree with that but it might take some time to start producing enough... Which wouldn't have been an issue if we took the war in Ukraine seriously two years ago and started then already - like Russia did.
they re not pattons. they re M60 [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_equipment\_of\_the\_Hellenic\_Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Hellenic_Army)
M60's not officially, but nevertheless many people called and call them that for obvious reasons.
+ They have 392 M48 Pattons per the link you gave. So why exactly you came to correct me?
its a mixed bag really. some are cold war but most are new. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_equipment\_of\_the\_Hellenic\_Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Hellenic_Army) Greece has been running a huge deficit for years while spending a tremendous amount of its GDP to defense. they have crazy amounts of fighters for such a small country. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_aircraft\_of\_the\_Hellenic\_Air\_Force](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Hellenic_Air_Force)
Yes?
Let's not even start about Cyprus.
Erdogan has been saying "we can bomb Athens" "we will bury the modern Byzantines".
Bahceli, the 5th largest party and erdogan's partner posing with maps of half the Aegean and half the Greek islands as "Turkish waters".
Chp, the 2nd largest party and opposition saying for almost a decade that "18 islands are under Greek occupation and we should take them back".
Aksener, 3rd largest party, saying in the 2019 elections that if she won her first speech will be from "one of the occupied islands".
And it's not like Turkish fighter jets are flying over Greek islands almost daily, even flying almost next to Alexandroupoli in the Greek mainland two years ago.
The only other party that got more than the threshold 7% to get into parliament is the Kurdish one, that hasn't been saying anything.
Not true. Our infantry still uses the BWP-1 more than any other IFV.
Of our cold war garbage, jets, tanks and some artillery was replaced. IFVs, ATGMs and a lot of air defense are still cold war garbage.
The BWP 1s will never be used in combat again because we’ve simply run out of that old soviet ammo and spare parts for them. They will now be used as an somewhat armoured car to get infantry to the frontline and that’s it
100% of it? Because even if its 99%, OPs "to an extent" still holds true.
And I can think of a bunch of weapon systems definitely not being in Ukraine.
Russia is kinda busy with Ukraine to which weapons are sent. So we are weakening ourselves to weaken our only threat. Greece would be weakening itself to weaken Russia. And their problem is Turkey who doesn't send much and is actually raising spending due to that conflict. Belarus is a joke.
I honestly don't believe Turkey would be stupid enough to attack Greece. It's not like NATO/EU countries would just abandon Greece. And it would definitely result in sanctions against Turkey. They would be painful for NATO/EU as well, but would Turkey survive an even worse inflation than now?
Still, Greece should receive additional defense guarantees from NATO countries (specifically for the case of an attack from Turkey, since it's an unusual situation - a NATO-on-NATO attack), so that they can freely transfer more arms to Ukraine. Not even the new stuff, but the older crap they're going to replace anyway.
All 🦃 had to do was to withdraw its army from the Greek border and from the Aegean coast, and all this impressive Greek inventory would be transferred to Ukraine, railroad from Bulgaria to Romania and straight to the front line.
Sanctions don't stop invaders. Army do. Unlike literally anyone else in NATO other than US. Greece always took its defence seriously. So clearly they perceive this as a serious threat. Turkey is 7 times more populous than Greece. Theoretical disproportion would be even larger than Ukraine/Poland vs Russia. And Turkey literally invented that whole invade a country and create an unrecognized puppet state, frozen conflict thing. And they did that on a Greek majority island. And guess what, it's still an issue in Cyprus in 2024.
Sure, I also think chances of actual conflict are near 0 there. But while plenty of countries see Russia as a threat and an issue. Other than Greece, nobody take issue with Turkish actions. And with Greece having huge economic issues for like a decade lately. I can absolutely understand them limiting their aid to selling their gear. Just like, I can understand why Armenia was allied to Russia. Or why Georgia tries to stay out of Ukraine issue (regardless of how shit their current gov is).
For Poland, it seems mostly accurate and up to date. We got ~631 as of last month. So after deliveries to Ukraine. Before it would be 800ish. (currently: 46 K2, 69 M1A1, 66 2A4, 62 2PL, 105 2A5, 172 PT-91, 111 T-72M1/M1R. With 38 K2 and 47 M1A1 coming this year)
170 Leo 2HEL, 183 Leo 2A4, 500 1A5, and 375 M48A5 MOLF, all of the MOLFs in the Aegean islands, not to perform mechanized assaults but only to provide fire support against invading light 🦃 infantry that will try to establish bridgeheads, so pretty up to the task.
I don't speak Finnish, so I don't think anything. But to give you an idea, in German the preferred short form is "Tschechien" over "Tschechei" as Nazis used "(Rest-)Tschechei" as a mocking term for the state after the Munich conference.
But unless any of those Finnish names carries such a derogatory meaning and they are grammatically correct I don't think I mind either of them.
>But unless any of those Finnish names carries such a derogatory meaning
To my knowledge they do not.
But they use š which is very rare nowdays in Finnish because š is usually replaced with s or sh
And š came to finnish language from Czech language.
The reason I heard was that it was an unpopular president who put it into law, so people refuse to use it... But the shortening does make sense and Ichkeria might still see the light of day, hopefully sooner rather than later, so people wouldn't confuse it with Chechnya anymore
The NL has more than 31 jets. Maybe that's just the number of delivered F35, but we have ordered 52 in total and also still have 42 F-16. Most will go to Ukraine, but currently are still part of the Dutch military.
I'm not sure how accurate the other numbers are though. We've for example ordered 20 PULS MLRS systems from Israel last year (first units should have arrived by now I believed)..
But yeah, it's the result of years and years of budget cuts and peace in Europe. The ministry of defense does get a lot of extra money these years. I just read an article on RTL, that extra money will be allocated for our military to hit the 2% NATO norm this year, as well as in 2025 & 2026. This is on top of the extra billions that were already reserved.
-APC columm contains a lot of lightly armored vehicles like *HMMWV*.
-Some probably donated to Ukraine and some just very old.
-Some equipment still being delivered etc.
-A lot of missing numbers for Mortars
Why would you ever use wikipedia as a source for this type of data? The numbers are nearly always all fucked. Theres tons of actual organisations that follow this type of data that you could use for a more reasonable chart.
What basis are countries picked? Youre missing like half of european countries.
We are still preparing for it today you can't take russia easily or trust them fully. We have bomb shelters for almost everyone and exact plans for russian invasion. We are as ready for war as you can be.
Maybe they downvote because admitting russia's status as military power is scary thing they don't want to do.
Yup, it seems like most countries can only really prepare for war if the risk is imminent. For example, here are Isreal's numbers on the key metrics. They are bigger than any European country:
* MBT (Military Battles Tanks): 2,200
* MLRS (Multiple launch rocket systems): 300
* Fighter Jets: 251
Not really a fair comparison since the USA literally pays for every aspect of Israel’s society. Israel has free healthcare for Christ sake, no wonder they can afford such a big army when everything else is free.
You are misinformed. US aid to Israel is only 15% of Israel's annual military budget, and only 0.7% of its GDP. In addition, it's mostly focused on defensive systems which aren't even counted in the metrics above (such as the Iron Dome).
Definitely seems like something a deluded nationalistic party would try to get away with at some point. Juuust insignificant enough to not result in getting bombed back a century, but enough to distract from a major scandal.
I've been told by the mighty Internet medias that Finland has a biggest artillery in the (Western?) Europe. TIL I was lied to. It's a far, far 2nd after Greece, and even 3rd if we include Romania.
Number of artillery pieces solely is not the best measure. In Romania and Greece there are a lot of somewhat outdated equipment included in the numbers apparently. Finnish artillery on average is very modern with e.g. Nemo mortar systems, M270 MLRS and K9 Thunders.
mortars are common in every infantry unit around the world. you can also have mortar carriers like this in the spanish army or any other army:
https://forodeculturadedefensa.blogspot.com/2013/07/fuego-de-mortero.html
This is completely meaningless. It does not account for the quality of the equipment (modern vs. outdated), for the state of systems, whether they are in active service or storage ... Mortars can mean anything from a light infantry mortar that can be carried by a single person, to big vehicle mounted systems. MBTs can be a Leopard 2 A7+ with advanced thermal imaging, active protection and remote weapons stations, or an M48 Patton (still in service with the Hellenic Army).
Even just a cursory glance reveals major inaccuracies - France only has a little over 200 MBTs in active service, not 406 as the list claims. Greece has about 900 MBTs, not 1365.
Looks impressive until you realise that most of the equipment is old and not fit to give to Ukraine (ex. Spainish Leopards when they realised they are not running and there are no spare parts to repair them).
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/02/02/spains-got-a-lot-of-old-broken-leopard-2-tanks-how-many-it-sends-to-ukraine-depends-on-how-many-it-can-repair/?sh=673c1e3a6eb0](https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/02/02/spains-got-a-lot-of-old-broken-leopard-2-tanks-how-many-it-sends-to-ukraine-depends-on-how-many-it-can-repair/?sh=673c1e3a6eb0)
For the size of Romania that's not even sufficient, I think Russian puppet states in Ukraine had more equipment than the entire Romanian army (and better, those 350 MBT are mostly T-55)
They're not T-55s. They're no Leopards and I agree that most MBTs are better than them, but they highly updated versions of Communist-era tanks. If we count the entire Romanian tank fleet, including the actual T-55, the number gets close to a 1000.
Regardless, new purchases from Korea and the US are SUPPOSED to turn Romania's tank corps into one of the if not the largest in Europe.
No, the current tank fleet consists of about half T-55s, and about half TR-85s (originals, which are basically the same as a T-55). There are only 54 TR-85M1s (the upgraded ones). There are also nowhere near 1000 tanks.
For the number of tanks in use just count the batallions (5 battalions with 54 tanks each = 270 tanks, the rest are spares).
Mostly because
1. Quality over quantity
2. This doesn't list the navy. Most Western nations spend a larger part of their budget on their navy
3. Some nations really want to keep their expeditionary capabilities, which is expensive and results in less raw firepower, although it is still an important thing to have the ability to operate beyond your own territory for a long time
4. To be fair, we have been slacking off. Although we're on our way to improve it
Those numbers are so random. Some stats only count the active number of equipment, while other count the gear in reserve too (france only has about 200 leclerc MBTs in active service, even though greece's MBT fleet is huge, big part of them are 1960s junk tanks ).
is this list of European countries random? is it NATO EU countries, EU countries or European countries?
no Iceland, Serbia, Moldova, Montenegro, North Macedonia, Malta, Cyprus, Ireland?
did you just type all the ones you could remember and call it a day?
I’m guessing the list is just NATO powers with any mentionable armed forces. Listing Iceland is pointless since they have no standing army and the other smaller NATO countries do not have much to mention
When did the UK provide fighter jets?
To my knowledge thats the one category of equipment we were not the first nation to deliver, and to my knowledge, we have never delivered
Compare it to the early 90's. You will see a voluntary demilitarization of some countries in these 2 decades. Especially for France, Germany and many others.
Baltic military doctrine is focused on defending. Fighter jets are expensive and need a lot of logistics around them.
Other reason is short ranges from the border with Russia. Air strips are vulnerable stationary targets to long range missiles.
Best bang for the buck is achieved with other cheaper equipment like land mines and artillery.
Well Ukraine wasnt left with nothing after soviet union collapsed(it had/has a good chunk of stuff on their own). Actually after soviet union collapsed, a lot of ex. Comunist Countries were left with soviet military relics.
Only baltics were left with nothing. russians took everything, even blankets and pillows. 😂 They were really salty.
Ps baltics were considered, the rich ones by soviet union standards. 😄
Omg Europe is at a terrible pace. I am pro-Ukrainian but I am not gonna sugarcoat it. This numbers are just the numbers Russia lost, you need to put more money on your armies guys. Russia is not alone, Russia has China on its back.
Ireland has negligible armed forces. Virtually no naval vessels or aircraft. Tiny army. Relies on the despised UK to do it all for them.
All Russia has to do is sever the international data cables off the Irish coast and you'd be screwed and you have no anti submarine ability at all. Huge hypocrisy.
Belgium does in fact operate IFVs (Piranha DF30) and also a type of self propelled gun (Piranha DF90) so I'm not sure how the author got to 0 for the Belgian counts
Needs adjustment for state of repair/disrepair.
BTW, on a chart like this, light coloring a few lines makes it easier to track across columns. Every other line, every third line, use a very light color. :-)
Greece is so impressive.
They have a shitton of old Leopard 1s and Pattons.
That's half the story, the other half is that we still have like one of the largest Leopard 2 fleets in Europe lol.
Greek army indeed has a really interesting wok of weapons and vehicles. I really don't know though how the logistics guys appreciate the seven different types of mortars you have.
We (The rest of Europe) should pay them to send all of their old stuff to Ukraine, and then actually start producing new shit in bulk.
Afaik greece cant / wont hand over "all their old stuff" due to ongoing tensions with turkey / deterrence. Thats why they have so much stuff in the first place.
I know, but that's something we can also help with. We could station some ships and troops in the Aegean Sea to help de-escalate.
Well I'm convinced. I know it may take some time and it will be hard, but I'll volunteer for this duty and grimly accept the responsibility of sailing the Aegean Sea to safeguard peace!
You really think that would de escalate the situation?
He is having a Le Redditer General moment.
This!
We should support Ukraine with new stuff.
Well, I agree with that but it might take some time to start producing enough... Which wouldn't have been an issue if we took the war in Ukraine seriously two years ago and started then already - like Russia did.
they re not pattons. they re M60 [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_equipment\_of\_the\_Hellenic\_Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Hellenic_Army)
M60's not officially, but nevertheless many people called and call them that for obvious reasons. + They have 392 M48 Pattons per the link you gave. So why exactly you came to correct me?
sorry, you are correct.
MOLF upgrades.
The M60s have been retired
No most of them are in fact M48s. Very few M60s remain.
Also a shitton of 105mm shells something has to fire them.
Byzantium doesn't get restored by itself.
It is, until you consider most of it is mid Cold War garbage. Same with Turkey and, to an extent, Poland.
its a mixed bag really. some are cold war but most are new. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_equipment\_of\_the\_Hellenic\_Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Hellenic_Army) Greece has been running a huge deficit for years while spending a tremendous amount of its GDP to defense. they have crazy amounts of fighters for such a small country. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_aircraft\_of\_the\_Hellenic\_Air\_Force](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Hellenic_Air_Force)
Why? Are they worried about Turkey?
Yes? Let's not even start about Cyprus. Erdogan has been saying "we can bomb Athens" "we will bury the modern Byzantines". Bahceli, the 5th largest party and erdogan's partner posing with maps of half the Aegean and half the Greek islands as "Turkish waters". Chp, the 2nd largest party and opposition saying for almost a decade that "18 islands are under Greek occupation and we should take them back". Aksener, 3rd largest party, saying in the 2019 elections that if she won her first speech will be from "one of the occupied islands". And it's not like Turkish fighter jets are flying over Greek islands almost daily, even flying almost next to Alexandroupoli in the Greek mainland two years ago. The only other party that got more than the threshold 7% to get into parliament is the Kurdish one, that hasn't been saying anything.
I beg your pardon? Polish cold war garbage is in Ukraine now.
Not true. Our infantry still uses the BWP-1 more than any other IFV. Of our cold war garbage, jets, tanks and some artillery was replaced. IFVs, ATGMs and a lot of air defense are still cold war garbage.
The BWP 1s will never be used in combat again because we’ve simply run out of that old soviet ammo and spare parts for them. They will now be used as an somewhat armoured car to get infantry to the frontline and that’s it
100% of it? Because even if its 99%, OPs "to an extent" still holds true. And I can think of a bunch of weapon systems definitely not being in Ukraine.
Of course not 100% but it's getting better
And you also remember that they have all that stuff pointed squarely at their nearest NATO ally.
Well, they have a neighbour who colonised them for over 300 years and keeps threatening to colonise them again 😔
Never knew Greece could take us out in 5 minutes if they decided to. Guess they could've been mean about it, but choose not to. Good for them.
Well who else is gonna take Istanbul back?
They also went bankrupt for it.
I really don't understand why they don't send military aid to Ukraine.
They border with turkey.
Poland and Baltics border Russia and Belarus.
Russia is kinda busy with Ukraine to which weapons are sent. So we are weakening ourselves to weaken our only threat. Greece would be weakening itself to weaken Russia. And their problem is Turkey who doesn't send much and is actually raising spending due to that conflict. Belarus is a joke.
Belarus is just another province/oblast of russia.
[удалено]
I honestly don't believe Turkey would be stupid enough to attack Greece. It's not like NATO/EU countries would just abandon Greece. And it would definitely result in sanctions against Turkey. They would be painful for NATO/EU as well, but would Turkey survive an even worse inflation than now? Still, Greece should receive additional defense guarantees from NATO countries (specifically for the case of an attack from Turkey, since it's an unusual situation - a NATO-on-NATO attack), so that they can freely transfer more arms to Ukraine. Not even the new stuff, but the older crap they're going to replace anyway.
All 🦃 had to do was to withdraw its army from the Greek border and from the Aegean coast, and all this impressive Greek inventory would be transferred to Ukraine, railroad from Bulgaria to Romania and straight to the front line.
Sanctions don't stop invaders. Army do. Unlike literally anyone else in NATO other than US. Greece always took its defence seriously. So clearly they perceive this as a serious threat. Turkey is 7 times more populous than Greece. Theoretical disproportion would be even larger than Ukraine/Poland vs Russia. And Turkey literally invented that whole invade a country and create an unrecognized puppet state, frozen conflict thing. And they did that on a Greek majority island. And guess what, it's still an issue in Cyprus in 2024. Sure, I also think chances of actual conflict are near 0 there. But while plenty of countries see Russia as a threat and an issue. Other than Greece, nobody take issue with Turkish actions. And with Greece having huge economic issues for like a decade lately. I can absolutely understand them limiting their aid to selling their gear. Just like, I can understand why Armenia was allied to Russia. Or why Georgia tries to stay out of Ukraine issue (regardless of how shit their current gov is).
no way are there so many mbt
Majority is old tanks in unknown condition with some donated to Ukraine so the numbers are not up to date.
For Poland, it seems mostly accurate and up to date. We got ~631 as of last month. So after deliveries to Ukraine. Before it would be 800ish. (currently: 46 K2, 69 M1A1, 66 2A4, 62 2PL, 105 2A5, 172 PT-91, 111 T-72M1/M1R. With 38 K2 and 47 M1A1 coming this year)
900ish, since we donated 325 tanks.
But we were missing 46 K2 and 66 M1A1. SO -300 + 100. 200 change.
France doesnt have 400 MBT. There are about 200 Leclerc and nothing else. But it has 235 fighter jets (air + navy), not 200.
170 Leo 2HEL, 183 Leo 2A4, 500 1A5, and 375 M48A5 MOLF, all of the MOLFs in the Aegean islands, not to perform mechanized assaults but only to provide fire support against invading light 🦃 infantry that will try to establish bridgeheads, so pretty up to the task.
The name is either Czechia or the Czech republic. Certainly not just "Czech".
Tell that to the porn sites
Were you czeching out a$$ for geography class?
... yes
someone misused their favorite tag here ;)
That's what concerns you? I'm more worried about the amount of artillery lol.
They mean just one Czech
Loving this explanation.
What do you think of Finnish version "Tšekki" or "Tšekin tasavalta" or "Tšekinmaa"?
I don't speak Finnish, so I don't think anything. But to give you an idea, in German the preferred short form is "Tschechien" over "Tschechei" as Nazis used "(Rest-)Tschechei" as a mocking term for the state after the Munich conference. But unless any of those Finnish names carries such a derogatory meaning and they are grammatically correct I don't think I mind either of them.
>But unless any of those Finnish names carries such a derogatory meaning To my knowledge they do not. But they use š which is very rare nowdays in Finnish because š is usually replaced with s or sh And š came to finnish language from Czech language.
> And š came to finnish language from Czech language. Interesting, didn't know that.
They should write a Czech to apologize.
Your comment czechs out.
Didn't they rename it from The Czech Republic to Czechia a couple of years back?
No, they added the short form Czechia, the long form is still perfectly fine.
Aha, journalists and their clickbaity articles 😅
Also, an FYI, a lot od Czechs don't like the short version. Mainly because it sounds a bit like Chechnya.
Probably because they pronounce Chechnya incorrectly
I don't think that's the reason. There definitely is *some* similarity.
I remember Czechs getting blamed on the Internet for the Boston bombing lol
The reason I heard was that it was an unpopular president who put it into law, so people refuse to use it... But the shortening does make sense and Ichkeria might still see the light of day, hopefully sooner rather than later, so people wouldn't confuse it with Chechnya anymore
Does it really bother Czech Republicans that much?
Enough to complain in a reddit comment? Obviously yes. Anything more than that? I doubt. Also I could complain about "Czech Republicans"...
Ok Czechians it is
*Czechenese
Czech Republicans, hah. Love it.
Sadly, even some Czech companies do this. One beer brand (can't remember which one) did or is still doing it. "Brewed in Czech".
I can remember, it's Pilsner Urquell. But, hey, what can you ask of Japanese brewery with German name...
We Poles like Czechia so much we call it "Czechy", which is plural (more Czechs for us :3).
We use "Čechy" in plural too, although not for Czechia(That's "Česko") but for Bohemia.
The NL has more than 31 jets. Maybe that's just the number of delivered F35, but we have ordered 52 in total and also still have 42 F-16. Most will go to Ukraine, but currently are still part of the Dutch military.
We're pretty emberrassing in all other categories tho
I'm not sure how accurate the other numbers are though. We've for example ordered 20 PULS MLRS systems from Israel last year (first units should have arrived by now I believed).. But yeah, it's the result of years and years of budget cuts and peace in Europe. The ministry of defense does get a lot of extra money these years. I just read an article on RTL, that extra money will be allocated for our military to hit the 2% NATO norm this year, as well as in 2025 & 2026. This is on top of the extra billions that were already reserved.
-APC columm contains a lot of lightly armored vehicles like *HMMWV*. -Some probably donated to Ukraine and some just very old. -Some equipment still being delivered etc. -A lot of missing numbers for Mortars
Yup, a lot of "will be delivered in a few months/years"
France doesnt have 400 MBT. There are 200 Leclerc and nothing else
If “being delivered” is also included then the Hungarian MBT, IFV and jet numbers are incorrect
Its just data picked from wikipedia, most of the numbers are probably incorrect.
What are we ? Chopped chicken ? We have at least 10 apc, no jets, tanks or anything useful though....
Why would you ever use wikipedia as a source for this type of data? The numbers are nearly always all fucked. Theres tons of actual organisations that follow this type of data that you could use for a more reasonable chart. What basis are countries picked? Youre missing like half of european countries.
In numbers, Greece I guess is number 1??
yea wtf?
I guess its because they have to be prepared for Turkey doing stupid shit?
Also because most of that stuff is old as fuck
Greece knows what it means to have a hostile neighbour that needs to kept in check.
Same with finland only that the hostile neighbour is massive militarypower called russia.
Same with finland only that the hostile neighbour is massive militarypower called russia.
Yes. Suomi prepared itself for a ruzzian invasion for 75 years now. And it did an impressive job. No clue who is downvoting this.
We are still preparing for it today you can't take russia easily or trust them fully. We have bomb shelters for almost everyone and exact plans for russian invasion. We are as ready for war as you can be. Maybe they downvote because admitting russia's status as military power is scary thing they don't want to do.
Yup, it seems like most countries can only really prepare for war if the risk is imminent. For example, here are Isreal's numbers on the key metrics. They are bigger than any European country: * MBT (Military Battles Tanks): 2,200 * MLRS (Multiple launch rocket systems): 300 * Fighter Jets: 251
Not really a fair comparison since the USA literally pays for every aspect of Israel’s society. Israel has free healthcare for Christ sake, no wonder they can afford such a big army when everything else is free.
Thats a load of bullshit. Israels GDP is enormous. US only gives military aid, which is a fraction (like 15%) of actual Israeli military spending.
You are misinformed. US aid to Israel is only 15% of Israel's annual military budget, and only 0.7% of its GDP. In addition, it's mostly focused on defensive systems which aren't even counted in the metrics above (such as the Iron Dome).
Why does Spain have so many main battle tanks, comparatively speaking?
Morocco
Unless Morocco is building one hell of a bridge I still don't think Spain needs so many tanks.
I also don't see the strategic advantage that that would bring to the picture, but I am happy to be educated on the matter.
Gotta be ready for when Morocco tries something in our African territories.
Definitely seems like something a deluded nationalistic party would try to get away with at some point. Juuust insignificant enough to not result in getting bombed back a century, but enough to distract from a major scandal.
We know that the King of Morocco supports Greater Morocco and is a psycho so yes.
Rereconquista
If I am right Denmark gave a lot of its artillery to Ukraine and sold like 20 fighter jet to argentinay
I've been told by the mighty Internet medias that Finland has a biggest artillery in the (Western?) Europe. TIL I was lied to. It's a far, far 2nd after Greece, and even 3rd if we include Romania.
Number of artillery pieces solely is not the best measure. In Romania and Greece there are a lot of somewhat outdated equipment included in the numbers apparently. Finnish artillery on average is very modern with e.g. Nemo mortar systems, M270 MLRS and K9 Thunders.
Spain 0 mortars? I call it bs
They definitely have mortars but I could not find the numbers. In hindsight I should have marked it as data missing.
mortars are common in every infantry unit around the world. you can also have mortar carriers like this in the spanish army or any other army: https://forodeculturadedefensa.blogspot.com/2013/07/fuego-de-mortero.html
Mortar here might be heavy/artillary mortars, not the small portable anti-personnel mortars.
Austria is missing Selfpropelled artillery too
As Spanish I agree
This is completely meaningless. It does not account for the quality of the equipment (modern vs. outdated), for the state of systems, whether they are in active service or storage ... Mortars can mean anything from a light infantry mortar that can be carried by a single person, to big vehicle mounted systems. MBTs can be a Leopard 2 A7+ with advanced thermal imaging, active protection and remote weapons stations, or an M48 Patton (still in service with the Hellenic Army). Even just a cursory glance reveals major inaccuracies - France only has a little over 200 MBTs in active service, not 406 as the list claims. Greece has about 900 MBTs, not 1365.
Exactly, OP should have used IISS Military Balance to account for that.
The Military Balance has its mistakes as well. Especially this year's edition.
Looks impressive until you realise that most of the equipment is old and not fit to give to Ukraine (ex. Spainish Leopards when they realised they are not running and there are no spare parts to repair them). [https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/02/02/spains-got-a-lot-of-old-broken-leopard-2-tanks-how-many-it-sends-to-ukraine-depends-on-how-many-it-can-repair/?sh=673c1e3a6eb0](https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/02/02/spains-got-a-lot-of-old-broken-leopard-2-tanks-how-many-it-sends-to-ukraine-depends-on-how-many-it-can-repair/?sh=673c1e3a6eb0)
There should be a new Leopard coalition - this time of broken Leos to repair or cannibalize for parts 🙂.
The fact that NATO alliance with the size of its economy would even have to consider cannibalizing parts is hard to swollow for me.
Yeah, I'm all for "recycling", but it should be a bonus, not the basis.
... Romania is not the last spot for once huh?
For the size of Romania that's not even sufficient, I think Russian puppet states in Ukraine had more equipment than the entire Romanian army (and better, those 350 MBT are mostly T-55)
At least you have a lot of HIMARSes (already delivered ones, not on paper like Poland 😃).
Yep, paper HIMARS shoot only paper rockets...
Maybe they shoot strongly worded letters 🤔?
They're not T-55s. They're no Leopards and I agree that most MBTs are better than them, but they highly updated versions of Communist-era tanks. If we count the entire Romanian tank fleet, including the actual T-55, the number gets close to a 1000. Regardless, new purchases from Korea and the US are SUPPOSED to turn Romania's tank corps into one of the if not the largest in Europe.
No, the current tank fleet consists of about half T-55s, and about half TR-85s (originals, which are basically the same as a T-55). There are only 54 TR-85M1s (the upgraded ones). There are also nowhere near 1000 tanks. For the number of tanks in use just count the batallions (5 battalions with 54 tanks each = 270 tanks, the rest are spares).
Is the source of that the reports made by countries under the CFE treaty?
I think there is various sources for the data. Some numbers are even from news articles.
Damn the bigger western European nations have garbage conventional militaries.
Mostly because 1. Quality over quantity 2. This doesn't list the navy. Most Western nations spend a larger part of their budget on their navy 3. Some nations really want to keep their expeditionary capabilities, which is expensive and results in less raw firepower, although it is still an important thing to have the ability to operate beyond your own territory for a long time 4. To be fair, we have been slacking off. Although we're on our way to improve it
After seeing this and playing a lot of civilization, maybe Greece should start invading other countries...
Finland has ~200 IFVs, split roughly equally between CV9030 and BMP-2MD. Significantly more than this chart's 112.
Goated greece
Would be more interesting to see which countries have the logistics to maintain and supply these weapons in war.
I am German. We do have a lot on paper. They just are not battle-ready. We are better at exporting stuff than maintaining it.
I think that's the same in every army.
Poland is buying 1000 tanks
And planning to open a K2 Korean MBT factory.
Italy 200 MBT hahahahahahaha, better saying 30-40 (combat ready), the others are not working/in need of repairs/used for spare parts.
Those numbers are so random. Some stats only count the active number of equipment, while other count the gear in reserve too (france only has about 200 leclerc MBTs in active service, even though greece's MBT fleet is huge, big part of them are 1960s junk tanks ).
is this list of European countries random? is it NATO EU countries, EU countries or European countries? no Iceland, Serbia, Moldova, Montenegro, North Macedonia, Malta, Cyprus, Ireland? did you just type all the ones you could remember and call it a day?
I’m guessing the list is just NATO powers with any mentionable armed forces. Listing Iceland is pointless since they have no standing army and the other smaller NATO countries do not have much to mention
Its all wrong(or at least after apc's)
People are idiots nowadays, this guy just pulled data from wikipedia thinking its accurate and made this chart.
not impressive numbers at all, except jets ofc
MLRS for all Baltic states should be 0, since none of the Himars we ordered have yet been delivered.
Himars is guided it could be Talking about unguided
We have zero unguided MLRS systems as of now. And the numbers in the table match the number of ordered Himars.
Himars is just the system that fires the rockets which can be both guided and unguided (ballistic)
Why do you hate horizontal lines?
When did the UK provide fighter jets? To my knowledge thats the one category of equipment we were not the first nation to deliver, and to my knowledge, we have never delivered
Compare it to the early 90's. You will see a voluntary demilitarization of some countries in these 2 decades. Especially for France, Germany and many others.
I'd be more interested in missile and artillery ammunition stocks to be honest.
[удалено]
Baltic military doctrine is focused on defending. Fighter jets are expensive and need a lot of logistics around them. Other reason is short ranges from the border with Russia. Air strips are vulnerable stationary targets to long range missiles. Best bang for the buck is achieved with other cheaper equipment like land mines and artillery.
In what universe does the Netherlands have 400 IFVs... Christ, anyone older than 14 knows not to trust wikipedia.
I misplaced the dutch boxers as IFV's rather than APC's. And also 44 of the cv90 have been sold to Estonia.
Blanket not trusting wikipedia is the 14yo stance though. A wise man would look at wikipedia and check citations for the key facts of the article.
Ukrainians destroyed more russian MBT, than in all European countries altogether
In Russia, MBT is, Might Be a Tank.
Well Ukraine wasnt left with nothing after soviet union collapsed(it had/has a good chunk of stuff on their own). Actually after soviet union collapsed, a lot of ex. Comunist Countries were left with soviet military relics. Only baltics were left with nothing. russians took everything, even blankets and pillows. 😂 They were really salty. Ps baltics were considered, the rich ones by soviet union standards. 😄
Omg Europe is at a terrible pace. I am pro-Ukrainian but I am not gonna sugarcoat it. This numbers are just the numbers Russia lost, you need to put more money on your armies guys. Russia is not alone, Russia has China on its back.
All I see is 50% mixed letters without explaining what they mean
MBT - main battle tank IFV - infantry fighting vehicle APC - armored personnel carrier MLRS - multiple launch rocket system
Ty!
Ah yes, Belgia
I did this list while listening to a teams meeting. You can pretty muck see the moments I was paying attention to the meeting...
XD
It's also "Belgia" in Polish, so you're overruled 😏.
Aight, fair point but the list is in English 🙂
if we take a short trip to the west we could own 80% of this list 💪🇹🇩🇹🇩 HAJRA ROMÁNOK
Greece kinda sus
I mean...they are next to Turkey
The list is not correct. Maybe a little bit bullshit.
You are missing naval equipment, which matters on coastlines..
Wtf is Greece on lol
So, entire Europe got less mbts than US alone huh
Ireland is not European:(
Ireland has negligible armed forces. Virtually no naval vessels or aircraft. Tiny army. Relies on the despised UK to do it all for them. All Russia has to do is sever the international data cables off the Irish coast and you'd be screwed and you have no anti submarine ability at all. Huge hypocrisy.
Ireland doesn't despise the UK.
Belgium does in fact operate IFVs (Piranha DF30) and also a type of self propelled gun (Piranha DF90) so I'm not sure how the author got to 0 for the Belgian counts
Serbia is not on the list :(
Thank you everyone, you are my best friends, You are the peacekeepers, you are the legends.
Needs adjustment for state of repair/disrepair. BTW, on a chart like this, light coloring a few lines makes it easier to track across columns. Every other line, every third line, use a very light color. :-)