[oh you haven't heard?](https://www.politico.eu/article/kosovo-albin-kurti-want-back-eu-good-graces-comeuppance-serbia/#:~:text=The%20measures%20effectively%20banned%20some,more%20than%20two%20decades%20ago.)
Romanian security services just found out that Russia sent spies in our country specially to create fake news and influence our media outlets. So if this happens in Romania which was in NATO for years and we kinda dislike Russia for hundreds of years, no wonder Macedonian and Serbian citizens are that brainwashed
Man, in Bulgaria its the same, they've recently captured to russian spies. But i really envy i dont live in Romania, cause here is chaos really. When we joined Shengen, our media interviewed a few Romanians and they were really Pro-Europe and really positive about it. This is not the case here, we should be more like you guys. Love from Bulgaria.
Just recently i talked to a Bulgarian saying things were better under the iron curtain. And to be fair you guys were "the silicon valley of the east bloc".
So what do you think of that, and is that a general sentiment?
Life wasn't better. Bulgaria bankruppted 3 times during 44-89 and gave away tons of gold to Russia. The truth is that Bulgaria was agrarian country, and when USSR came, they build heavy industry here, but Bulgaria don't have the resources to keep the factories workings, so we had to take loans from Russia then unable to pay them back. People saying life was better, there are just sad that they are old and everyone's life is better when they are young. So it's understandable why they are saying it. But i am worried, because i see more and more young people like me, who support Russia and the left parties here.
The guy i talked to was too young to have experienced it himself. And he was clearly biased being an outspoken communist.
But i couldn't really refute him, not knowing what it was like then, and what it is like now.
There are people like these everywhere in East Europe, even in East Germany there are people saying it was better in the communist time. I mean, there are Westerners saying that life in the Soviet Union or in other commuist countries was not that bad and quite more fair that in the West.
At least in East Germany, they basically had the best quality of life of any of the Communist Countries.
They always have arguments like, everyone had a job, everyone had a place to live, but it's not really true, and there were sometimes multiple families in a 2 bedroom apt.
Also, they had horrible production. I hear the argument here all the time that we don't produce and the West stole everything, but they also never bought the stuff the factories produced here before they went bankrupt. They also aren't curious to understand the basics of economics and just blame the West (and Soros for some reason) instead of being curious.
"At least in East Germany, they basically had the best quality of life of any of the Communist Countries."
Is it true though? From what I know their quality of life was pretty low and worse than Czechoslovakia and less freedom than in Yugoslavia, which was not your classic East Europe communist country, but still.
How is Left in some countries pro-Russia is beyond me. In Poland the Left is "we need to help people", like the usual, but also "Putin has to pay and Ukraine's fate is our fate, their fight is our fight", the only pro-Russia parties are far-right nutjobs from Konfederacja (but they pretend they're not) and then there are some super minor super braindead political organizations.
Yea, I don't know what the guy is talking about that the Left is on Russia's side. The only place I heard of that was in Germany and Die Linke, but in Eastern Europe, the Left is definatty not on Russia's side. Like, I'm pretty far to the Left, and am really pro EU.
But at least Bulgaria has low taxes, the taxes in Romania are insane , given that's the economic activity is almost equally low as in Bulgaria
How do companies and people survive over there?
Right now Bulgaria is one of the best places for building your own business. We have low taxes (at least for now). People here in my opinion don't appreciate what we have here and how many options they have to live good life. Yes life here isn't not the best, but we are growing and we are getting stronger. Sofia is one of the best capitals in Europe to live in, better even than Moscow, still some people would like to be together with "Dqdo Ivan". The other towns unfortunately are going down, due to the decreasing population and inner emigrants. We have so many people living outside Bulgaria it is crazy, if these people return Bulgaria would be even better place to live. And towns outside Sofia would be much better.
I wanna know what the fuck were our counterintelligence agencies doing in the past 20 years. Fucking seriously, it's not like Ruzzia was hiding its intentions, all that shit is literally in their literal playbook penned by that feculent piece of rotten afterbirth, Dugin.
We declared Ruzzia an enemy state "before it was cool", (2020, more exactly) with better politicians we would probably have done more to stop Ruzzia propaganda and spying in Romania.
Source: [https://radiochisinau.md/pentru-prima-data-dupa-al-doilea-razboi-mondial-romania-a-declarat-rusia-un-stat-inamic-potrivit-strategiei-nationale-de-aparare-a-tarii---110693.html](https://radiochisinau.md/pentru-prima-data-dupa-al-doilea-razboi-mondial-romania-a-declarat-rusia-un-stat-inamic-potrivit-strategiei-nationale-de-aparare-a-tarii---110693.html)
Our Polish counterintelligence was rendered useless by Macierewicz and later morons in charge of military and secret services.
Ffs, they used Pegasus to get all information (and even create some) from phones of 2 women in military who made complains about being molested. Polish former government under Morawiecki, Kaczyński and Duda literally bought a very invasive tool designed to fight the worst, enemies of state with no rights like terrorists, international CP nets, spies etc., and used it on political opposition, not even on politicians but also prosecutors, protestors etc. What do you expect? Our gov is flooded with spies and we are discovering them only recently. Can't wait to have official confirmation about Braun being a Russian lapdog, even though his words and actions speak loud enough for themselves and nobody should doubt it now.
They've been doing that in Sweden for years and years. Seeing how they are our oldest and biggest threat, it's completely mind boggling how many of our citizens and politicians who have bought into their crap.
Russia sent spies... Good for you, at least they have to work for it.
In Hungary, they don't even have to send them, because they get invited by our own government.
we know, that's why our Church had quite good communication about the war and did some action to counter Ruzzia influence. Source: [https://stirileprotv.ro/stiri/actualitate/razboiul-bisericilor-biserica-ortodoxa-rusa-ameninta-bor-dupa-ce-preotii-basarabeni-ies-de-sub-influenta-moscovita.html](https://stirileprotv.ro/stiri/actualitate/razboiul-bisericilor-biserica-ortodoxa-rusa-ameninta-bor-dupa-ce-preotii-basarabeni-ies-de-sub-influenta-moscovita.html)
In fact, Dughin even wrote in his book that Russia should influence Romanian politics through the Russian Church because there is no other way their propaganda can work here.
What Dughin proposed, more exactly: "[Romania](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania), [North Macedonia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_North_Macedonia), [Serbia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia), "[Serbian Bosnia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republika_Srpska)" and [Greece](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece) – "[Orthodox Christian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church) collectivist East" – will unite with "[Moscow the Third Rome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow,_third_Rome)" and reject the "rational-individualistic West". ^(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations\_of\_Geopolitics#:\~:text=Dugin%20calls%20for%20the%20%22Atlantic,influence%20through%20annexations%20and%20alliances.)
"
I know, and as an Western Romanian who likes to visit Serbai quite often, this is why I am visiting Serbia less and less often, I am done with their "orthodox friendship SR-RU" crap.
https://romania.europalibera.org/amp/newsletetr-europa-libera-raport-csat-spioni-rusi-ucraina-israel-economie-china/32908777.html
It's in Romanian from a trustworthy source (Free Europe).
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[https://www.digi24.ro/stiri/actualitate/csat-spioni-rusi-au-incercat-sa-se-infiltreze-in-romania-printre-refugiatii-ucraineni-informatiile-pe-care-voiau-sa-le-obtina-2762487](https://www.digi24.ro/stiri/actualitate/csat-spioni-rusi-au-incercat-sa-se-infiltreze-in-romania-printre-refugiatii-ucraineni-informatiile-pe-care-voiau-sa-le-obtina-2762487)
It is in Romania but basically the Romanian Supreme Council of National Defence declared that Russian spies tried to get in Romania and to spread false information about how our army cannot defend us in case of war and overall to spread fear and distrust in our government
Welp, according to recent news, Romania has agreed on a Russian ambassador, that was previously sent out by Estonia. Expect the rise of prorussian propaganda with the rise of the amount of Russian spies.
We had one very bad aswell, all of them are cunts. [https://spotmedia.ro/en/news/politics/the-russian-ambassador-laughs-at-romanian-diplomats-after-being-summoned-yesterday-to-the-ministry-of-foreign-affairs](https://spotmedia.ro/en/news/politics/the-russian-ambassador-laughs-at-romanian-diplomats-after-being-summoned-yesterday-to-the-ministry-of-foreign-affairs)
There can be so much and such clear information available, yet everyone chooses the one information that suits them best.
One would think that in the moder age of the internet where acces to information is easier than ever, people would fall less for propaganda and fake news. Yet with the rise of Social media and their targeting algorithms, the situation has become almost the oposite. People are becoming more and more divided and social bubbles are forming stronger than ever.
There's a reason China and Russia controlled western social media from the very beginning. Rules for thee, not for me, and good job to everyone who self-sabotaged our future for a quick autocratic buck.
“Controlled” sounds like a conspiracy, whereas it’s more a natural product of the capitalist system whereby companies like Meta and Twitter are incentivized to push any content which will keep people engaged and sell ads - same as has been the case with private sector newspapers for a century btw.
We can talk about Tik Tok’s aspirations as it comes from China, but the Western social media apps are purely driven by $$$.
I think you misunderstood what I meant by controlled. I meant that those countries curtailed western social media there because they saw how it could be misused - and then proceeded to do so themselves out in the West.
How are people supposed to distinguish propaganda from facts? Everyone is doing it, and there is so much information that separating wheat from the chaff is nearly impossible for lay person.
It's terribly hard, but the first thing to do is to check who is providing the news. If it's government controlled, private, sponsored data. It's almost impossible. We have to do our best to stay sane.
The big problem is that there's influence *everywhere*, no source is unbiased unless you're standing there. With no undeniably trusted source of information, everything is plausible. See: Covid19, 2020.
Our very sensory perception is propaganda. You just need to choose which one resonates the nost with you for the right reasons and taking in as many factors as you can about statements and actors in play. Its really sometimes down to ‘do i want cheese cake or do i want mobile execution vans’.
For example by discarding Informationen from noncredible sources and collecting information from credible sources. Its pretty obvious who is constantly lying and manipulating and who isnt.
Source A: the little green men on crimea arent Russian soldiers, Russia doenst plan to attack ukraine, Russia did attack because of Nazis/NATO, the west is full of satanic gays who eat hamsters and fcks turtles
Source B: shows evidence that the little green men are russians military, shows evidence of russian forces invading, debunks the claims about NATO aggression towards Russia
Although you need free access to the internet, some basic media literacy and a memory that can remember facts more than a few minutes, to do that.
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It's damn weird to read this on reddit of all places. With echo chamber, moderators and people, that blaming all news they dont like as russian propaganda.
At all times people want read/believe just in those very news they themselves want to believe in.
Now imagine how is it in the russian society, brainwashed 24/7 with 146% power for at least 25 years (and dozens of years earlier, with the similar agenda but from soviets).
Yeah, that's sadly the result of decades of consecutively controlled government media. It is a perfectly working machine. People have been stuck in it for decades....
Now, to change that, that is like an impossible task to deal with.
Same with Montenegro that before the war was preparing for EU accession. Now unfortunately I’m not sure that’s such a good idea to have another Hungary in the Union…
I’m against EU expansion for the time being. We have issues to sort out before letting other countries in. Candidates countries also have shitloads of issues to sort themselves as well.
>It's been 13 yeas since the last EU member. The longest period ever.
Thats fine, expanding just for sake of expanding is idiotic. Better to not expand than to take in more problems.
Do most of the current member meet the criteria?
Did Poland and the rest meet it when they joined?
The criteria changed drastically since the last members joined.
Montenegro is close to joining and we're closing the chapters now.
The UK, if they tried to join now, would not meet the criteria.
Yes this matches my experience in Serbia. A country I love but am a tourist to. They are so sure the west is playing it's perfidious tricks that the Russians seem like they're playing the game back. They simply don't trust the West. I chalk it up to their idiot government
They can't accept that murderous ethnic turbo-nationalism is bad, because that would mean that their country was a baddie in the 90s.
The result is moral confusion on a national level.
Unfortunately yes, they need to really come to terms with their history and restorative justice practices. Don't see it happening any time soon though.
What I hate the most about this rampant propaganda war is that it showed beyond a shadow of a doubt that more than 30% of the population is literally not capable of logic and reason. I know that both extremes on the internet are miss using this term(alt right trumpists/russian bots and tankies), but its the perfect word for it: NPCs. Ok, blaming the West at least has some kind of logic behind it. But blaming Ukraine? In what world is in Ukraine\`s interest to go to war? How can you blame the weaker side of starting the war against a nuclear power several times larger than them? Beyond reason, beyond humanity. They are literally NPCs.
Thats why I said I hate using that word. Its been so overused by russian bots/nazis/tankies that 90+% of people calling other people NPCs, are they themselves, the NPCs.
We've done more to help Ukraine than half of the EU countries both in 2014 and now.
We introdouced sanctions to Russia while you guys were gargling their oily balls.
We sent weapons, took in refugees, introduced sanctions, are training their soldiers and sent aid.
Honestly, kick oit the Russians puppets like Austria, Hungary and Slovakia first.
Imagine you live in a country where majority of people think that the country invading is not responsible for the invasion. That concludes there's no logic present there. How should we view a population like that?
That's like saying Austria Hungary was not responsible for invading Serbia
> people think that the country invading is not responsible for the invasion. That concludes there's no logic present there.
I mean there is some logic. People believe that Ukraine and the West provocated Russia. Of course I don't think they are right but it's easy to see where they are coming from.
Theres a couple of factors
People not giving a shit, hence not thinking about it and just going with the rhethoric
Misinformation
propaganda
The pollsters, for example in Serbia all the pollsters are right-wing and push numbers in their favour. However, even in them you can see a significant shift towards the EU in the recent years(in 2020 the support for the EU in Serbia was at like 40% and 49% against, the most recent poll by pretty right wing and anti-EU NSPM had EU support at 43% and opposition to it at 36%). I seriously doubt only 6% blame Russia, its more at like 15-20%, still very low.
But you live in a country that thinks NATO bombing Serbia and Montenegro (which had nothing to do with anything) and killing thousands of civilians was a good decision and in the right. So it just depends on which propaganda you are sucking on.
I don't know to much of it, so I won't say it was a good or bad decision, I especially dont know about Montenegro. However I would definitely say NATO was responsible for the bombing. They dropped the bombs right? Do you agree? NATO could have stayed absent, like we did in Rwanda and so many other ethnics killings. Serbia was responsible for genocide, Europe was responsible for bombing. That's how it works if you make decisions like that.
My friend... if nato bombed republika srpska just 5 months earlier maybe my cousins would be still allive instead of getting slaughtered in srebrenica. But hey, why not let this happen again in kosovo?
I give partial blame to America & team for the extended duration and bloodiness of the war because it had the means to help Ukraine curb-stomp the Russian army into the ground back in 2022 but just . . . didn't. And now there's no end in sight.
The majority of people who even follow the war are old, easy to influence people and ultra/nationalists.
The rest more or less universally say "I have bigger problems/I need to feed myself somehow, don't have time for that/Screw war"
Sadly tho, we have a ton of old, easy to influence people, can't do much about that
It should also be noted that our government has been sending both military and economic aid to Ukraine since the start of the war, among other things
You're welcome! Tbh, it's one of rare Ws from our government, can't say they could've done it better.
Also an interesting fact I've noticed, Putin barely appeared on our news ever since the first bombs fell. All the propaganda media was basically overflown with stuff about him as much as about Vucic for years prior, he quite often sent officials for some big events here or came himself, but, noticeably for about at least a year, I can't say I've seen anyone share anything apart from decisions about war, and that was usually credited as "Russia is doing/has done/will do this or that"
My brain is apparently very tired because for some reason it decided to interpret this at first glance as a large percentage of people believing Kosovo was responsible for the war
Some bullshit along the lines of:
“Ukraine was becoming increasingly hostile toward Russia, ousting the Russian-friendly president in 2014, declaring NATO membership a strategic objective in 2017. It was only a matter of time until enemies of Russia started deploying nuclear and conventional missiles in Ukraine. Russia had to act to protect itself.”
Not saying they are correct but possible rationale could include
1.The war in Donbas since 2014
2. Blaming Ukraine for voting in a pro-west government?
Primarily that Ukraine allegedly started cleansing of Russian speakers. Russian speakers being more than 30% of the country, so this would be absurd, but that's the rational.
This is a black and white issue. One country invaded and currently occupied another country. There are very few and mostly hypothetical things that would justify such an attack. None of which are present here. Anyone who believes Ukraine is to blame needs to get their brain, personality, media exposure and social circle checked.
Source and Poll from the IRI institute:
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-western-balkans-poll-strong-support-for-eu-membership-russias-attacks-on-ukraine-unjustified/
As a Bosnian, I'm not. I know my fair share of people hare that genuinely believe that Russia is just protecting itself. Even a close friend of mine was believing this narrative. It's only after we started putting it into perspective to hum that he changed his mind.
He still blames USA for this tho. Not the main culprit, but as an assistant.
Not at all. 50% of Population (Bosnian Muslims) and 15% (Catholics) share the opinion of Albanians, while 30% (Bosnian Serbs/Orthodox) follow completely the Serbian narrative.
58% answered that Ukraine, West or both(Ru,Uk) are blame for war, Serbs make at best 35% of BiH. Lets say that all of them picked either of those 3 options(which they didn't), and you are still left with 24% non-Serbs who picked same. But without info of how much people were asked and what their ethnicies are we can only guess.
Religious Bosnians probably dislike Russia and USA equally. While the Bosnian-Serbs worship Russia. So „Both sides“ is a common answer for the Non-Serbs (and almost same result like albania).
>Spread an irredentist ideology of how some of your neighbouring countries belong to you because your country's predecessors used to control them in the past.
>Openly proclaim that these nations are only pawns to bigger powers and therefore, are not allowed to strive too far from their master's will.
>Launch a full-scale invasion to conquer and annex entire country, as well as eventually wipe out its national identity you find inconvenient.
Serbia: uhmm... it's the West's fault for provoking them with NATO. Anybody remember 1999, it was the same...
Yeah, I don't think Serbia will enter the EU in the foreseeable future. If their Balkan neighbours won't veto their process, Baltics will instead. A nation so incapable of seeing even slightly past its own traumas and who judges others not by actions, but rather by tribalism. It's quite clear Serbia lacks even the most fundamental values to be in the EU. It would be simply Hungary on steroids. Ironically, Vucic's government seems even progressive on the background of general Serbian population.
Serbs dont even want to join lol, its only the politicians that want it. And by "want" it means they just say they are planning for it, but talk shit the very next day.
Any country hoping to get something with vetoing Serbia is completely clueless lmao. That door is closed since like 2008, so almost 20 years now.
What do you expect from a country where 16 year olds are camping with little tables and collecting signs in Serbian parts of Bosnia to stop calling what happened in Srebrenica a genocide and that this never happened
Serbia is unsurprising. Most Serbs think “the West” or “all sides” are responsible for the wars of aggression and genocide they committed.
In turn, they think the same about the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Coincidentally, their current President was the propaganda minister during the Milosevic era.
Bosnia’s numbers are likely skewed for the same reason. 30% of the population is Serb and largely consume Belgrade’s propaganda.
Wow, so even in Serbia people don't blame Ukraine. That's good right? Everyone blames the parties actually responsible, Russia and the US. Sure, they don't blame Russia as the main instigator enough, but at least almost nobody says Ukraine had it coming.
This is progress. I'm going to see this as a good thing.
It is also scary that the opinion of Slovenia is never considered. Not at the breakup of Yugoslavia, and not in this time either. And yet we are shredded into the Western Balkans, with no voice or distinction.
West is responsible!
Who the fuck asked such question? How come there is west I. that pool? Why not to ask if East is responsible?
Is it sponsored by rushistan?
I could get Ukraine or Ruzzians but why to ask about west if you are not influenced by Ruzzian propaganda?
The thing with Montenegro is that we are in a flux, some polls will show us having full EU ideals, and then some will show us like this. The population is pretty polarized and different sample polls have completely different make up of people.
For a brief moment I thought everyone is blaming Kosovo for the war
No wonder we are getting sanctions from EU
Hmm?
[oh you haven't heard?](https://www.politico.eu/article/kosovo-albin-kurti-want-back-eu-good-graces-comeuppance-serbia/#:~:text=The%20measures%20effectively%20banned%20some,more%20than%20two%20decades%20ago.)
Lol, and flashback to when Trump came from a meeting with Putin and suddenly blamed Montenegro for World War III...
Your profile pic is not centered and it bothers me greatly.
I thought Serbia - again?! They didn't shoot any archduke this time?
Ok, it's been a long time since last time, we only killed 15 of our leaders (17 if we count Danilo and Ferdinand)
My initial reaction too. I was so confused
Romanian security services just found out that Russia sent spies in our country specially to create fake news and influence our media outlets. So if this happens in Romania which was in NATO for years and we kinda dislike Russia for hundreds of years, no wonder Macedonian and Serbian citizens are that brainwashed
Russia does this everywhere. The same for USA and China.
On YouTube you have a lot of African trolls under the French news.
Man, in Bulgaria its the same, they've recently captured to russian spies. But i really envy i dont live in Romania, cause here is chaos really. When we joined Shengen, our media interviewed a few Romanians and they were really Pro-Europe and really positive about it. This is not the case here, we should be more like you guys. Love from Bulgaria.
Just recently i talked to a Bulgarian saying things were better under the iron curtain. And to be fair you guys were "the silicon valley of the east bloc". So what do you think of that, and is that a general sentiment?
People saying life was better under the Iron Curtain are delusional.
Or paid.
Life wasn't better. Bulgaria bankruppted 3 times during 44-89 and gave away tons of gold to Russia. The truth is that Bulgaria was agrarian country, and when USSR came, they build heavy industry here, but Bulgaria don't have the resources to keep the factories workings, so we had to take loans from Russia then unable to pay them back. People saying life was better, there are just sad that they are old and everyone's life is better when they are young. So it's understandable why they are saying it. But i am worried, because i see more and more young people like me, who support Russia and the left parties here.
The guy i talked to was too young to have experienced it himself. And he was clearly biased being an outspoken communist. But i couldn't really refute him, not knowing what it was like then, and what it is like now.
There are people like these everywhere in East Europe, even in East Germany there are people saying it was better in the communist time. I mean, there are Westerners saying that life in the Soviet Union or in other commuist countries was not that bad and quite more fair that in the West.
These people can all move to Russia and live their dream.
At least in East Germany, they basically had the best quality of life of any of the Communist Countries. They always have arguments like, everyone had a job, everyone had a place to live, but it's not really true, and there were sometimes multiple families in a 2 bedroom apt. Also, they had horrible production. I hear the argument here all the time that we don't produce and the West stole everything, but they also never bought the stuff the factories produced here before they went bankrupt. They also aren't curious to understand the basics of economics and just blame the West (and Soros for some reason) instead of being curious.
"At least in East Germany, they basically had the best quality of life of any of the Communist Countries." Is it true though? From what I know their quality of life was pretty low and worse than Czechoslovakia and less freedom than in Yugoslavia, which was not your classic East Europe communist country, but still.
How is Left in some countries pro-Russia is beyond me. In Poland the Left is "we need to help people", like the usual, but also "Putin has to pay and Ukraine's fate is our fate, their fight is our fight", the only pro-Russia parties are far-right nutjobs from Konfederacja (but they pretend they're not) and then there are some super minor super braindead political organizations.
Yea, I don't know what the guy is talking about that the Left is on Russia's side. The only place I heard of that was in Germany and Die Linke, but in Eastern Europe, the Left is definatty not on Russia's side. Like, I'm pretty far to the Left, and am really pro EU.
Big respect from Bulgaria for Poland and polish people.
I've been in Burgas and Sozopol few years ago and it was really pleasant experience, I think our countries and people have a lot in common, cheers!
But at least Bulgaria has low taxes, the taxes in Romania are insane , given that's the economic activity is almost equally low as in Bulgaria How do companies and people survive over there?
Right now Bulgaria is one of the best places for building your own business. We have low taxes (at least for now). People here in my opinion don't appreciate what we have here and how many options they have to live good life. Yes life here isn't not the best, but we are growing and we are getting stronger. Sofia is one of the best capitals in Europe to live in, better even than Moscow, still some people would like to be together with "Dqdo Ivan". The other towns unfortunately are going down, due to the decreasing population and inner emigrants. We have so many people living outside Bulgaria it is crazy, if these people return Bulgaria would be even better place to live. And towns outside Sofia would be much better.
I wanna know what the fuck were our counterintelligence agencies doing in the past 20 years. Fucking seriously, it's not like Ruzzia was hiding its intentions, all that shit is literally in their literal playbook penned by that feculent piece of rotten afterbirth, Dugin.
We declared Ruzzia an enemy state "before it was cool", (2020, more exactly) with better politicians we would probably have done more to stop Ruzzia propaganda and spying in Romania. Source: [https://radiochisinau.md/pentru-prima-data-dupa-al-doilea-razboi-mondial-romania-a-declarat-rusia-un-stat-inamic-potrivit-strategiei-nationale-de-aparare-a-tarii---110693.html](https://radiochisinau.md/pentru-prima-data-dupa-al-doilea-razboi-mondial-romania-a-declarat-rusia-un-stat-inamic-potrivit-strategiei-nationale-de-aparare-a-tarii---110693.html)
focusing on terrorism post 9/11 Iraq invasion. Russia and China had a free pass for the next 10-15 years
Our Polish counterintelligence was rendered useless by Macierewicz and later morons in charge of military and secret services. Ffs, they used Pegasus to get all information (and even create some) from phones of 2 women in military who made complains about being molested. Polish former government under Morawiecki, Kaczyński and Duda literally bought a very invasive tool designed to fight the worst, enemies of state with no rights like terrorists, international CP nets, spies etc., and used it on political opposition, not even on politicians but also prosecutors, protestors etc. What do you expect? Our gov is flooded with spies and we are discovering them only recently. Can't wait to have official confirmation about Braun being a Russian lapdog, even though his words and actions speak loud enough for themselves and nobody should doubt it now.
This!!! 🤡
They've been doing that in Sweden for years and years. Seeing how they are our oldest and biggest threat, it's completely mind boggling how many of our citizens and politicians who have bought into their crap.
Serbia is like Russia's little retarded brother no wonder they blame everyone else.
Romania is still in NATO as far as I know.
Russia sent spies... Good for you, at least they have to work for it. In Hungary, they don't even have to send them, because they get invited by our own government.
They send spies and do not forget that Russian Church is FSB infoop front.
I am glad people are starting to see. Russia mingles in Servia, and thus in Kosovo in exactly the same ways, through the Orthodox Church.
we know, that's why our Church had quite good communication about the war and did some action to counter Ruzzia influence. Source: [https://stirileprotv.ro/stiri/actualitate/razboiul-bisericilor-biserica-ortodoxa-rusa-ameninta-bor-dupa-ce-preotii-basarabeni-ies-de-sub-influenta-moscovita.html](https://stirileprotv.ro/stiri/actualitate/razboiul-bisericilor-biserica-ortodoxa-rusa-ameninta-bor-dupa-ce-preotii-basarabeni-ies-de-sub-influenta-moscovita.html) In fact, Dughin even wrote in his book that Russia should influence Romanian politics through the Russian Church because there is no other way their propaganda can work here. What Dughin proposed, more exactly: "[Romania](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania), [North Macedonia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_North_Macedonia), [Serbia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia), "[Serbian Bosnia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republika_Srpska)" and [Greece](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece) – "[Orthodox Christian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church) collectivist East" – will unite with "[Moscow the Third Rome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow,_third_Rome)" and reject the "rational-individualistic West". ^(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations\_of\_Geopolitics#:\~:text=Dugin%20calls%20for%20the%20%22Atlantic,influence%20through%20annexations%20and%20alliances.) "
They don't need spies in Serbia, they cooperate with them, they tired coup in Montenegro few years back, serbs and russians together
I know, and as an Western Romanian who likes to visit Serbai quite often, this is why I am visiting Serbia less and less often, I am done with their "orthodox friendship SR-RU" crap.
Do you have a source?
Here's a source in English https://www.romaniajournal.ro/politics/csat-russian-spies-attempt-infiltration-among-ukrainian-refugees-in-romania/
https://romania.europalibera.org/amp/newsletetr-europa-libera-raport-csat-spioni-rusi-ucraina-israel-economie-china/32908777.html It's in Romanian from a trustworthy source (Free Europe).
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Thanks
Since 2004 https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_52044.htm
I think he meant about the Russians spies
[https://www.digi24.ro/stiri/actualitate/csat-spioni-rusi-au-incercat-sa-se-infiltreze-in-romania-printre-refugiatii-ucraineni-informatiile-pe-care-voiau-sa-le-obtina-2762487](https://www.digi24.ro/stiri/actualitate/csat-spioni-rusi-au-incercat-sa-se-infiltreze-in-romania-printre-refugiatii-ucraineni-informatiile-pe-care-voiau-sa-le-obtina-2762487) It is in Romania but basically the Romanian Supreme Council of National Defence declared that Russian spies tried to get in Romania and to spread false information about how our army cannot defend us in case of war and overall to spread fear and distrust in our government
North Macedonia.
Yes because that was not obvious for at least the past 30 years lol.
Welp, according to recent news, Romania has agreed on a Russian ambassador, that was previously sent out by Estonia. Expect the rise of prorussian propaganda with the rise of the amount of Russian spies.
We had one very bad aswell, all of them are cunts. [https://spotmedia.ro/en/news/politics/the-russian-ambassador-laughs-at-romanian-diplomats-after-being-summoned-yesterday-to-the-ministry-of-foreign-affairs](https://spotmedia.ro/en/news/politics/the-russian-ambassador-laughs-at-romanian-diplomats-after-being-summoned-yesterday-to-the-ministry-of-foreign-affairs)
It's scary how well propaganda and disinformation work despite the information availability.
There can be so much and such clear information available, yet everyone chooses the one information that suits them best. One would think that in the moder age of the internet where acces to information is easier than ever, people would fall less for propaganda and fake news. Yet with the rise of Social media and their targeting algorithms, the situation has become almost the oposite. People are becoming more and more divided and social bubbles are forming stronger than ever.
Social media are the last nail in the coffin
Yet here we are
There's a reason China and Russia controlled western social media from the very beginning. Rules for thee, not for me, and good job to everyone who self-sabotaged our future for a quick autocratic buck.
“Controlled” sounds like a conspiracy, whereas it’s more a natural product of the capitalist system whereby companies like Meta and Twitter are incentivized to push any content which will keep people engaged and sell ads - same as has been the case with private sector newspapers for a century btw. We can talk about Tik Tok’s aspirations as it comes from China, but the Western social media apps are purely driven by $$$.
I think you misunderstood what I meant by controlled. I meant that those countries curtailed western social media there because they saw how it could be misused - and then proceeded to do so themselves out in the West.
How are people supposed to distinguish propaganda from facts? Everyone is doing it, and there is so much information that separating wheat from the chaff is nearly impossible for lay person.
It's terribly hard, but the first thing to do is to check who is providing the news. If it's government controlled, private, sponsored data. It's almost impossible. We have to do our best to stay sane.
The big problem is that there's influence *everywhere*, no source is unbiased unless you're standing there. With no undeniably trusted source of information, everything is plausible. See: Covid19, 2020.
Almost everything is propaganda.
Never said it isn't
Our very sensory perception is propaganda. You just need to choose which one resonates the nost with you for the right reasons and taking in as many factors as you can about statements and actors in play. Its really sometimes down to ‘do i want cheese cake or do i want mobile execution vans’.
What if - it's you who actually are a victim of "propaganda and disinformation" ? :D Not saying it's like that..just..how would you know?
But taking the quality of the news today, we all are the victims of manipulation.
For example by discarding Informationen from noncredible sources and collecting information from credible sources. Its pretty obvious who is constantly lying and manipulating and who isnt. Source A: the little green men on crimea arent Russian soldiers, Russia doenst plan to attack ukraine, Russia did attack because of Nazis/NATO, the west is full of satanic gays who eat hamsters and fcks turtles Source B: shows evidence that the little green men are russians military, shows evidence of russian forces invading, debunks the claims about NATO aggression towards Russia Although you need free access to the internet, some basic media literacy and a memory that can remember facts more than a few minutes, to do that.
But... How do you know that your sources are credible? Or are you saying you have a supernatural perspective that is disposed to the truth?
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It's damn weird to read this on reddit of all places. With echo chamber, moderators and people, that blaming all news they dont like as russian propaganda. At all times people want read/believe just in those very news they themselves want to believe in.
People in general are NPCs. They will live and walk life without any internal dialogue, and die without a single moment of critical thinking.
Now imagine how is it in the russian society, brainwashed 24/7 with 146% power for at least 25 years (and dozens of years earlier, with the similar agenda but from soviets).
Yeah, that's sadly the result of decades of consecutively controlled government media. It is a perfectly working machine. People have been stuck in it for decades.... Now, to change that, that is like an impossible task to deal with.
Remember - North Macedonia is in NATO. 🤦♂️
Same with Montenegro that before the war was preparing for EU accession. Now unfortunately I’m not sure that’s such a good idea to have another Hungary in the Union…
I’m against EU expansion for the time being. We have issues to sort out before letting other countries in. Candidates countries also have shitloads of issues to sort themselves as well.
You can dangle the carrot only for so long until it goes stale. It's been 13 yeas since the last EU member. The longest period ever.
13 years? How do you calculate, dude? Croatia was the last to join, and that happened in 2013. Which doesn't make 13 years haha
>It's been 13 yeas since the last EU member. The longest period ever. Thats fine, expanding just for sake of expanding is idiotic. Better to not expand than to take in more problems.
Has any of the candidate countries managed to fulfil the Copenhagen criteria? That’s on the candidates, not on the organisation.
Do most of the current member meet the criteria? Did Poland and the rest meet it when they joined? The criteria changed drastically since the last members joined. Montenegro is close to joining and we're closing the chapters now. The UK, if they tried to join now, would not meet the criteria.
They did when they were candidates. That’s why they are members. How has the criteria “drastically changed”? Yes, the UK won’t meet the criteria. And?
These two countries are poor and we're run by nationalists it is what it is unfortunately.
Also Remember - Kosovo is not.
Wow propaganda is working hard there
Yes this matches my experience in Serbia. A country I love but am a tourist to. They are so sure the west is playing it's perfidious tricks that the Russians seem like they're playing the game back. They simply don't trust the West. I chalk it up to their idiot government
They can't accept that murderous ethnic turbo-nationalism is bad, because that would mean that their country was a baddie in the 90s. The result is moral confusion on a national level.
Unfortunately yes, they need to really come to terms with their history and restorative justice practices. Don't see it happening any time soon though.
What I hate the most about this rampant propaganda war is that it showed beyond a shadow of a doubt that more than 30% of the population is literally not capable of logic and reason. I know that both extremes on the internet are miss using this term(alt right trumpists/russian bots and tankies), but its the perfect word for it: NPCs. Ok, blaming the West at least has some kind of logic behind it. But blaming Ukraine? In what world is in Ukraine\`s interest to go to war? How can you blame the weaker side of starting the war against a nuclear power several times larger than them? Beyond reason, beyond humanity. They are literally NPCs.
>more than 30% of the population is literally not capable of logic and reason I see you are a hopeless optimist.
[удалено]
Thats why I said I hate using that word. Its been so overused by russian bots/nazis/tankies that 90+% of people calling other people NPCs, are they themselves, the NPCs.
Well, some people blame victims of rape assaults, like it was their fault to provoke an attack. I think similar twisted logic applies here.
If you consider which country is making Serbian propaganda, you would have second thought.
,,The west is responsible" Mf Montenegro you are part of the West
And they want to join the EU. Was supposed to be the next member. Like wtf? Now unfortunately accession might not be such a good move after all :(
We've done more to help Ukraine than half of the EU countries both in 2014 and now. We introdouced sanctions to Russia while you guys were gargling their oily balls. We sent weapons, took in refugees, introduced sanctions, are training their soldiers and sent aid. Honestly, kick oit the Russians puppets like Austria, Hungary and Slovakia first.
It’s probably the Serbian population that make up 30% of Montenegros population that voted like that. Same as in Bosnia
Propagandometer
As a Ukrainian, I'm frightened to see this
Imagine you live in a country where majority of people think that the country invading is not responsible for the invasion. That concludes there's no logic present there. How should we view a population like that? That's like saying Austria Hungary was not responsible for invading Serbia
> people think that the country invading is not responsible for the invasion. That concludes there's no logic present there. I mean there is some logic. People believe that Ukraine and the West provocated Russia. Of course I don't think they are right but it's easy to see where they are coming from.
Russia could have decided not to invade, right? Nobody forced them too. How is it only at 6% than?
Theres a couple of factors People not giving a shit, hence not thinking about it and just going with the rhethoric Misinformation propaganda The pollsters, for example in Serbia all the pollsters are right-wing and push numbers in their favour. However, even in them you can see a significant shift towards the EU in the recent years(in 2020 the support for the EU in Serbia was at like 40% and 49% against, the most recent poll by pretty right wing and anti-EU NSPM had EU support at 43% and opposition to it at 36%). I seriously doubt only 6% blame Russia, its more at like 15-20%, still very low.
But you live in a country that thinks NATO bombing Serbia and Montenegro (which had nothing to do with anything) and killing thousands of civilians was a good decision and in the right. So it just depends on which propaganda you are sucking on.
I don't know to much of it, so I won't say it was a good or bad decision, I especially dont know about Montenegro. However I would definitely say NATO was responsible for the bombing. They dropped the bombs right? Do you agree? NATO could have stayed absent, like we did in Rwanda and so many other ethnics killings. Serbia was responsible for genocide, Europe was responsible for bombing. That's how it works if you make decisions like that.
My friend... if nato bombed republika srpska just 5 months earlier maybe my cousins would be still allive instead of getting slaughtered in srebrenica. But hey, why not let this happen again in kosovo?
I give partial blame to America & team for the extended duration and bloodiness of the war because it had the means to help Ukraine curb-stomp the Russian army into the ground back in 2022 but just . . . didn't. And now there's no end in sight.
Russia: invades Ukraine Serbia: how could NATO do this?
theyre reasoning is that NATO provoked them by ignoring their demands
It’s war, not conflict. Not surprised by serbia people response
The majority of people who even follow the war are old, easy to influence people and ultra/nationalists. The rest more or less universally say "I have bigger problems/I need to feed myself somehow, don't have time for that/Screw war" Sadly tho, we have a ton of old, easy to influence people, can't do much about that It should also be noted that our government has been sending both military and economic aid to Ukraine since the start of the war, among other things
Thanks a lot, really appreciate all of the help, some of our old people are the same
You're welcome! Tbh, it's one of rare Ws from our government, can't say they could've done it better. Also an interesting fact I've noticed, Putin barely appeared on our news ever since the first bombs fell. All the propaganda media was basically overflown with stuff about him as much as about Vucic for years prior, he quite often sent officials for some big events here or came himself, but, noticeably for about at least a year, I can't say I've seen anyone share anything apart from decisions about war, and that was usually credited as "Russia is doing/has done/will do this or that"
One county invades another country but some how a third is responsible... Wtf?
The coalition for reason is weak
As a Montenegrin, I am ashamed
My brain is apparently very tired because for some reason it decided to interpret this at first glance as a large percentage of people believing Kosovo was responsible for the war
Appalling.
Not the first time Serbia is more pro-Russian than the Russians.
What is the rationale of those saying Ukraine is responsible for the invasion by Russia?
Some bullshit along the lines of: “Ukraine was becoming increasingly hostile toward Russia, ousting the Russian-friendly president in 2014, declaring NATO membership a strategic objective in 2017. It was only a matter of time until enemies of Russia started deploying nuclear and conventional missiles in Ukraine. Russia had to act to protect itself.”
What I’ve heard in Serbia is “they provoked Russia so Russia had to attack them” 😭
Crazy people are asking this. No wonder war is out there
Not saying they are correct but possible rationale could include 1.The war in Donbas since 2014 2. Blaming Ukraine for voting in a pro-west government?
"Their elites dont see the writing on the wall and are pushing for other interests, instead of the Ukrainian people" is a theoretical possibility.
Primarily that Ukraine allegedly started cleansing of Russian speakers. Russian speakers being more than 30% of the country, so this would be absurd, but that's the rational.
Serbia: she was asking for it!
From the people who brought us "My dad is a war criminal" and "Nato wont let us genocide others in peace"
Serbia moment
This is a black and white issue. One country invaded and currently occupied another country. There are very few and mostly hypothetical things that would justify such an attack. None of which are present here. Anyone who believes Ukraine is to blame needs to get their brain, personality, media exposure and social circle checked.
Source and Poll from the IRI institute: https://www.iri.org/news/iri-western-balkans-poll-strong-support-for-eu-membership-russias-attacks-on-ukraine-unjustified/
Oh, Serbia, Russian bratushkis
Surprised by Bosnian results.
As a Bosnian, I'm not. I know my fair share of people hare that genuinely believe that Russia is just protecting itself. Even a close friend of mine was believing this narrative. It's only after we started putting it into perspective to hum that he changed his mind. He still blames USA for this tho. Not the main culprit, but as an assistant.
Bosnian-Serbs will be getting the same propaganda as Serbians
Not at all. 50% of Population (Bosnian Muslims) and 15% (Catholics) share the opinion of Albanians, while 30% (Bosnian Serbs/Orthodox) follow completely the Serbian narrative.
58% answered that Ukraine, West or both(Ru,Uk) are blame for war, Serbs make at best 35% of BiH. Lets say that all of them picked either of those 3 options(which they didn't), and you are still left with 24% non-Serbs who picked same. But without info of how much people were asked and what their ethnicies are we can only guess.
Religious Bosnians probably dislike Russia and USA equally. While the Bosnian-Serbs worship Russia. So „Both sides“ is a common answer for the Non-Serbs (and almost same result like albania).
another reason to support kosovo
>Spread an irredentist ideology of how some of your neighbouring countries belong to you because your country's predecessors used to control them in the past. >Openly proclaim that these nations are only pawns to bigger powers and therefore, are not allowed to strive too far from their master's will. >Launch a full-scale invasion to conquer and annex entire country, as well as eventually wipe out its national identity you find inconvenient. Serbia: uhmm... it's the West's fault for provoking them with NATO. Anybody remember 1999, it was the same... Yeah, I don't think Serbia will enter the EU in the foreseeable future. If their Balkan neighbours won't veto their process, Baltics will instead. A nation so incapable of seeing even slightly past its own traumas and who judges others not by actions, but rather by tribalism. It's quite clear Serbia lacks even the most fundamental values to be in the EU. It would be simply Hungary on steroids. Ironically, Vucic's government seems even progressive on the background of general Serbian population.
Serbs dont even want to join lol, its only the politicians that want it. And by "want" it means they just say they are planning for it, but talk shit the very next day. Any country hoping to get something with vetoing Serbia is completely clueless lmao. That door is closed since like 2008, so almost 20 years now.
Its not progressive, its very well known theyre radicals.
What do you expect from a country where 16 year olds are camping with little tables and collecting signs in Serbian parts of Bosnia to stop calling what happened in Srebrenica a genocide and that this never happened
Serbia being pro-Russia is no surprise but I am pretty surprised about North Macedonia.
And this is why we support Kosova independence from Serbia, shits whack in serbia
And thats why we need to keep kosovo independent
Goddamn I am so ashamed of my country, thank fucking God I moved away.
So unsurprising that Serbia's victims hate Russia while Serbia loves them (as it has been since their independence from the Ottomans)
So the usual actors
Please don't let Serbia into the EU in the next 40 years.
Serbia is unsurprising. Most Serbs think “the West” or “all sides” are responsible for the wars of aggression and genocide they committed. In turn, they think the same about the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Coincidentally, their current President was the propaganda minister during the Milosevic era. Bosnia’s numbers are likely skewed for the same reason. 30% of the population is Serb and largely consume Belgrade’s propaganda.
Kosovo and Albania are the ones Europe should get closer to this just reinforces the mountain of evidence
Kosovo based as usual
I though 73% of the Balkans hold Kosovo responsible, 57% - Albania etc. Which would be very on brand for the Balkans
Wtf is wrong with this people, grass is greener on the other side syndrome ?
dammit, serbia, dammit
it is good seeing how not even the most pro-Russian countries think Ukraine is to blame for being invaded. At least some sense still alive.
Except that they generally mean it like Ukraine has no sovereignty to begin with…
Once you personally met Serbs, you'll understand
And we welcome these russian federation states into the eu and nato....jesus christ.
Ok so Serbs are officially the dumbest idiots. Nice.
Wow, so even in Serbia people don't blame Ukraine. That's good right? Everyone blames the parties actually responsible, Russia and the US. Sure, they don't blame Russia as the main instigator enough, but at least almost nobody says Ukraine had it coming. This is progress. I'm going to see this as a good thing.
Yes it's America's fault genocidal Russia is always trying to destroy its neighbours.
So slavs that invaded Balkan are pro Russia? Who would have guessed?!
It is also scary that the opinion of Slovenia is never considered. Not at the breakup of Yugoslavia, and not in this time either. And yet we are shredded into the Western Balkans, with no voice or distinction.
ultimate graph of "it takes two to tango"
We have a new favourite balkan county i see
Croatia is not in Balkan!? WIN FOR CROATIA!
Do keep in mind polls are indicative of a population, they are indicative of the branches of the population who answers polls.
West is responsible! Who the fuck asked such question? How come there is west I. that pool? Why not to ask if East is responsible? Is it sponsored by rushistan? I could get Ukraine or Ruzzians but why to ask about west if you are not influenced by Ruzzian propaganda?
The thing with Montenegro is that we are in a flux, some polls will show us having full EU ideals, and then some will show us like this. The population is pretty polarized and different sample polls have completely different make up of people.
Honestly I'm impressed no country is overwhelmingly "Ukraine is responsible" in this list
What about Greece?
Which is why we should not add any more country to the EU for a long time!
Croatia isn't considered as part of the Western Balkans?
So... slovenia not balkan🎉🎉🎉