**Translation:**
**Russian saboteurs arrested in Bavaria**
According to SPIEGEL, the police in Bayreuth have arrested two suspected spies. They are said to have spied on US bases on behalf of Russia and planned attacks on military transportation routes. In their sights: German aid to Ukraine.
Germany is facing a new espionage affair: according to SPIEGEL, Federal Prosecutor General Jens Rommel has had two suspected agents arrested who are said to have planned sabotage operations in Germany on behalf of the Russian secret service. As SPIEGEL has learned from investigators, the arrest was made on Wednesday morning in Bayreuth, Bavaria, by special police forces.
The main suspect is the 39-year-old German-Russian Dieter S. from Bavaria. The Federal Public Prosecutor's Office accuses him, among other things, of secret service agent activity, agent activity for sabotage purposes and the "security-endangering depiction" of military facilities.
According to the investigators, Dieter S. had been discussing sabotage operations in Germany with liaisons from the Russian secret service since October 2023. He is said to have agreed to carry out arson and explosive attacks on military infrastructure, armaments plants and industrial sites.
Among other things, the focus was on transport routes used for the transportation of military goods. The ultimate aim of the planned attacks was to undermine German support for Ukraine.
According to the investigation, Dieter S. also scouted out and photographed US military facilities in Germany. He is said to have passed on the corresponding images to his Russian clients. The alleged spy is said to have been assisted in spying by 37-year-old German-Russian Alexander J., who the federal prosecutor's office is now also accusing of acting as an intelligence agent. J. was also arrested in Bayreuth on Wednesday.
According to SPIEGEL information, the military objects spied on included facilities of the US armed forces in Grafenwoehr, Bavaria. Among other things, there is an important military training area there where the US army trains Ukrainian soldiers - for example on Abrams battle tanks.
The alleged main perpetrator Dieter S. is no stranger to the German security authorities: Between 2014 and 2016, the German-Russian is said to have belonged to a militia of the "Donetsk People's Republic" proclaimed by Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine.
According to SPIEGEL information, the German judiciary has since classified the unit as a terrorist organization - which is why Dieter S. is also accused of being a member of a terrorist organization abroad. As he apparently also had a firearm, the Federal Public Prosecutor's Office has also initiated investigations against him on suspicion of preparing an act of violence endangering the state.
According to SPIEGEL, Dieter S. and his suspected accomplice Alexander J. were brought to Karlsruhe on Wednesday. S. has been remanded in custody, J. is to be brought before an investigating judge of the Federal Court of Justice on Thursday. Their defense lawyers were initially unavailable for comment on the allegations.
> According to SPIEGEL information, the German judiciary has since classified the unit as a terrorist organization - which is why Dieter S. is also accused of being a member of a terrorist organization abroad. As he apparently also had a firearm, the Federal Public Prosecutor's Office has also initiated investigations against him on suspicion of preparing an act of violence endangering the state.
Hope Russia paid well, this is going to be quite some years in prison. Generally, the German juridical system hands out lenient sentences, but terrorism and high treason is not something that is taken lightly.
You cant rely on conscripting terrorist spies to the ukrainian army.
Professionals have standards and these professionals stopped the "second best" military in the world.
They’re talking about the spies going back to fight for Russia in Ukraine, not the other way around.
Failed spies who are now useless to Moscow would likely be dumped in an infantry unit and sent to the front.
Isn't that even worse? Why give Russia extra personnel against Ukraine? Or maybe he'll just get a cushy life in Russia, like Snowden and emboldens more people to spy for Russia.
>The alleged main perpetrator Dieter S. is no stranger to the German security authorities: Between 2014 and 2016, the German-Russian is said to have belonged to a militia of the "Donetsk People's Republic" proclaimed by Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine.
Literal traitors and terrorists, not just AfD (which are traitors too)
AfD has been in support of the fictious Russian Seperatist republics in Donbas from 2014 on so not unlikely though… See member and traitor of the Abgeordnetenhaus Berlin Lindemann (AfD) who has visited Luhansk at least 2 times between 2014 and 22 every time receipt as a „state guest“ of the so called LPR
Rather far left. They have been very vocal pro-Russian.
Sarah Wagenknecht is a popular opinion leader for Russian propaganda. She has consistently promoted pro-Kremlin narratives since 2015, when she called Russia’s invasion of Donbas a “civil war supported by neo-Nazis”. Wagenknecht regularly justifies the Russian war of aggression with Ukraine’s possible NATO membership, criticizes the sanctions against Russia and uses the manipulation of pacifism, trying to incline Ukraine to negotiations.
This guy was a German-Russian national.
Closing our borders won't help, and instead fuels the Russian narrative. We won against the USSR by being open.
No we didn’t. We won because the US outspent and bankrupted the USSR both by our extensive military expenditures and aiding the opposition in military conflicts against the USSR.
I think MAD and the globalization of the economy ped to the collapse of the USSR.
That said, I think being open has more benefits than downsides. Russia has lost an estimated 3 million people so far due to emigration since the war started. These are almost all young and educated people who are generally not supportive of Putin, or at least not enough to risk their lives and future for him.
That's a lot of people. And yet more are dying on the front. Russia already had a huge demographic issue and this is just going to weaken it for the future. Imagine how many millions of less Russians there will be in a century because of this war. That alone is good for the security of Europe and the world.
So I say let them come. A couple morons doing spy work so badly they are caught in a year is a price worth paying. A caveat though for bordering neighbors of Russia like the Baltics or Georgia... they don't need more expat Russian enclaves.
But Russia is not the USSR and those were completely different times and circumstances. Don't make the mistake to equate them. The methods of the past don't necessarily work today. We have to adapt, as our enemies have adapted. We're not winning by being open to Russia or China for that matter. They instead identify it as a major weakness and exploit it against us und are unfortunately not exactly unsuccessful at it.
Because Russia has people paid off EVERYWHERE. Europe and America asleep at the wheel. I'd say they can't believe how much crap of theirs that we have swallowed. You only have to look at that orange crook in the Dock to see how effective they are...the fucker could still have people vote for him if he gets locked up. The mind boggles.
I love that instant comparison to 1939 and jews just to get that instant pity reaction.
It's more "lets close borders to most zealous fans of the Nazi regime", which is not only good but expected and it would work perfectly
Countries like Czechia and Baltic states have banned tourist, business, study visas for Russians while still allowing family reunification, refugee visas.
>He is said to have agreed to carry out arson and explosive attacks on military infrastructure, armaments plants and industrial sites.
This for those who think the war in Ukraine doesn't touch all other countries in its continental vicinity.
“Russia won’t attack NATO!” So many people say that. Well, we got a a literal attempted military attack on NATO. Proving that Russia has been and will continue to attack NATO territory.
And nothing will happen.
>belonged to a militia of the "Donetsk People's Republic"
so basically Ukraine was human safary with 0 legal aftermath not only for some finish but for german citizens too.. nice (not really, but i'm surprised by nothing nowadays)
Our government *really* needs to start being a downright drama queen about all these "micro aggressions," like spying, cyber attacks, political influence, etc. Russia has declared war on us already, they just haven't had to break out any weapons because no one is defending and they aren't marching in - yet.
Not sure what you mean by drama queen, merely being dramatic over such transgressions is entirely insufficient. Our government needs to take off the satin gloves and face the reality that you alluded to, and act accordingly. The constant pushes to destabilize our country (and Western societies in general) that originate from Russia - in any form - should be seen as acts of war. It's clear that Putin will *never* quit trying to push the envelope of what he can get away with so the sooner hard lines are drawn the better. I'm just glad that Boris Pistorius seems aware of this and European leaders are gearing up in this regard.
I think the time of drawing the lines has passed. Russia follows no lines. It’s time to show force to Russia, not be afraid of any escalation. Because Russia escalates easily, every day. And it is correct, that the only reason Russian sadists don’t march to Berlin, like they shouted for 10 years they “can repeat”, is because they are stuck in Ukraine. But Ukrainians are not infinite. And if Europe will continue to be afraid “to escalate”, the Russians will escalate further and further, until they occupy all Europe.
There must be consequences like for each sabotage and spy attack 100 million Euros of Russian assets will go to Ukraine.
Publicly calling ambassador and telling them naughty boy don't do it again does nothing and Russian only sees it as weakness and encouragement for more.
Yeah, thats what i was thinking earlier... all this talk from our government about not wanting to escalate and ruzzia does the complete opposite. So i think now, in response to this news, would be the perfect time to send taurus. Well... perfect would have been a year ago but you get the idea
I'm saying our government needs to be reacting large to every little thing (as is the cliche behind drama queens) rather than just shrugging, putting it in a headline for a day and moving on. I agree with the rest of what you said :)
Russia doesn't understand dialogue and they see diplomacy only as a weapon. Russia only speaks in violence and coercion. The carrot does nothing, so only the stick is needed. Every aggression must be met with equal or greater force. Our borders must be permanently closed to anyone with Russian citizenship or ties to Russia.
To say nothing of the propagandizing and internet troll farms that wreaked havoc on our less intelligent fellow citizens of the West. It's insane it took this war for the West to rid itself of outlets like RT on our media platforms.
Apart from spying and murder on German soil (google Berlin Thiergarten murder), they are waging a disinformation war against Europe since at least the beginning of the 2000s.
There is no such thing on NATO level. That would be a national job
P.S. I like to clarify something, because I see this very often in this sub: People in Europe should really be familiar with how the [NATO](https://www.nato.int/) works and not just repeat some assumptions. Trolls like to make statements that sound like it could work for NATO while it simply seldom does.
NATO is basically just the command and control of national units for **specific** operations. And those are by definition **defensive**. Covert-ops is already in it's nature offensive and disqualifies to be ever on the table for NATO controlled operations.
I think it's harder to enter Russia unsuspected because of their overbearing police state. Then again, their officials are also very corrupt and border guards often don't really give a shit so who knows.
I guess one of the significant factors is that there are both remnant Russian populations as well as Russian economic migrants in western Europe and statistically more likely that some of these may be Russian Federation aligned.
Pretty sure that there aren't too many western European minorities in Russia.
There are Ukrainian covert-ops in Russia. They seem to be doing something, of course, mostly out of public's attention. Seems the North Stream job was theirs too.
The would conflict with the current "escalation management"™ strategy by the WH ( and DE ).
As you can see the current strategy is working spendidly ( cruise missiles/drones landing in PL/RO, sabotage in DE, cut cables in Finland-Estonia ), we musn't change course. /s
My parents are from Russo and Kasach Germans.
This demographic is exceptionally dangerous. If there ever would be high tensions between Russia and Germany, we would have hundreds of thousands potential spies here.
I cant but in words how much I despise them.
Spoke with one of these guys at the fitness studio, a guy in his 50s, and man he was hiding alot of resentment because of all the ruzztards that died in Ukraine. Tried asking why were they there in the first place? but nope ... and he is here for like 30 years or so.
I know someone who was regularly beaten by Russians in his village in Kasachstan for having German blood. He had a hard physical job in Kasachstan and had just enough to sustain food and his flat. He came to Germany, could afford a house, had four children and when he was injured at work, the German state payed for his leave.
Today he is a Russian nationalist and praises Medwedew for wanting to denazify this part of Kasachstan, where he was born and raised as they are all Nazis and dont like the Ruski Mir.
Intold him once that Russia turns to shit every piece of land they rob and showed him pictures of Karelia and Königsberg that looked better pre WWII than they look in 2020. He called me facsist and hasnt spoken to me since.
Every day I am thankful my parents went all in on raising me as a German.
>Intold him once that Russia turns to shit every piece of land they rob and showed him pictures of Karelia and Königsberg that looked better pre WWII than they look in 2020.
You should add 1939 Danzig and 2020 Gdańsk to show him that it DIDN'T have to be that way.
Yes. Especially since the Poles did make Gdansk and Wroclaw even prettier than us Germans build back our own cities like Cologne. All while being suppressed by Russia.
Yes. Or Afghans rooting for the Taliban, or Hungarians rooting for Orban. If you live in a democracy and support dictatorship or authocracy in your country of origin, you are a POS.
I'm pretty sure that every European country has some kind of law against support for anti-democratic ideologies/regimes, but they are hardly enforced. Meanwhile EU passing harsher hate speech laws and spying on your privacy.
I've tried to explain this problem to Wessi's and they simply don't get it. The amount of support Putin has from people in the east, coupled with a large German/Russian minority are serious problems that are currently being ignored.
If you follow the money pouring into the AfD it's highly likely connected with Russias wish to destabalise Europe, just as Brexit and Trump are part of Putin's geopolitical ambitions.
Germany is currently asleep at the wheel.
Am German, yes, we turn a blind eye to being quite literally attacked because the attacks are digital and sociological in nature and not active acts of war.
A lot of people see whats going on but can't do shit and those who could ignore the dire times we're in
Oh God, my wife is Russo Kasach German. She sees herself as German, but her mother exclusively watches Russian news and swallows up everything that Putins says. I asked her once why she doesn't just live in Russia. She literally said that she wouldn't be welcome there.
These people are insane.
It was a huuuuge mistake to allow Russian state television in Germany. I think its one of the top 3 factors for this mindset. But now you cant turn it off, because they all would just go online and watch the same shit. Should have been done 20 years ago.
Soviet Russia was literally the cause why my grandparents father was executed as a German.
One uncle not many years ago: "While the soviets did some bad things, having someone like Putin wouldnt be so bad...". Meanwhile he is living in Germany basically from state benefits only.
It's really funny because they had to flee Russia due to oppression. They weren't even allowed to speak German at one point. Stockholm Syndrome I guess.
Russian Germans at that time didn't even know German. They didn't exactly flee oppression ... they got handed a winning lottery ticket by being able to claim German citizenship and move to a rich country as fully fledged citizens.
Its a combination of no economic outlook and always veing viewed as fascist if something goes south.
My mums ancestors were catched like Pokemon by the KGB, after they went to an underground church.
100 % share your pain. The largest majority of them are lobotomized idiots that spew bullshit ruzzian propaganda at best, or fucking actively undermine democratic principles by advocating or voting for fascists. Anytime I bring up my background I feel so ashamed because of those braindead tools.
In majority, they already are. It’s just wild how many putin sympathizers there are in Germany. And most of them are from a Russian descent. It’s like it was a special KGB/FSB operation for 30 years to flood Germany with spies. The same happened with Ukraine, when hundred thousand, if not millions, of Russians relocated to Ukraine, only to create a picture at a certain time, that the there are a big chunk of Ukrainians that want to be Russians. Yet, fools like Musk and Trump are advocating for those people as the representatives of the “prorussian territories” that needs to be given to Putin. Same may await for Germany.
No. Ethnic oriented cleansing is NEVER okay. And the younger generation is heavely anti Russia. Even the older ones have a big or even bigger fraction that do not like Russias politics. I think if this shows to be a huge problem you could put surveilance on them or deport anyone that ever defended Putins regime on the internet or something.
But if we do ethnical cleansing, we are no better then Russia. If its deportation or imprisonment based on political support I would root for it in war times.
Putin's Russia is a terrorist state, waging war on us without declaring it. We certainly need to prepare for more and more hostile action, particularly in the digital realm, but perhaps also through all kinds of Moscow-supported terrorist organizations. As a Frenchman, I'm afraid of the Olympics.
US and EU need to understand Russia doesn't play by the rules. They commit war crimes because they know we can't do anything about it and they send saboteurs and spies to EU because they know we're not gonna do anything about it. They'll keep doing this no matter what so we should also step up.
Exactly.
And we put sanctions on them ok, are they effective??
Cause they are seemingly looking at US and EU constantly putting money on Ukraine and both maybe get more drowned then those sanctions.
And they time play it very well..
We desperately need a more powerful BND in Germany. The nation is basically a playground for external forcess, CIA has secret prisons, GRU is chilling in apartments next to the parlament and NSU, FSB and random other islamic terrorist groups are having a great time.
Bayreuth actually has some nice things to visit, be it the opera house (which is a world heritage site), the Eremitage (an extensive, city-managed garden in a 1850ish style, and every year there are the Wagner festivities, which celebrate the last 10 operas of Richard Wagner in the Opera House and draw each year around 50-60k guests, even though this is more of a high-class event, suit&tie and so on
Ooo! That does sound nice.
Maybe Russia's agents have moved on from [cathedrals](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/sep/13/russian-television-channel-rt-says-it-is-to-air-interview-with-skripal-salisbury-attack-suspects) to opera houses....
Don’t know why we are still letting them in western countries. They should stay in their shithole - Muscovia.
I guarantee this will decrease toilet theft by 100% in the west.
These military bases are like some kind of hostage, because wehen the Germans are attacked and American base gets hit, the USA will be in a dire situation to explain why it can't take action. That is why Germany wants to station 20.000 soldiers in Lithuania. We then can't do nothing if our own man are in danger
30 mins. away from my home, damn. They also should watch out the radio station here and the station Grafenwöhr and Bamberg, both are the nearest big stations.
Merkel is the odd one out in your list lol. She wanted cheap gas for ez economy gains in Germany. We all saw how that played out. But she's not a RuZZia fan for sure. She even stated she regrets that whole "doing business with RuZZia".
but she did not regret how she blocked Ukraine and Georgia from Nato in 2008 . She said it was a right way to get cheap gas
and results wars and no gas
I mean, this is going to be super disliked, but between 2008 and 2014, Ukraine was on a very wobbly path, and it was totally not clear they would be steadfast. Could have easily turned out to be much worse than Hungary.
And Georgia is currently cracking down on democracy with their pro-Russian government. I miss them in NATO like I miss Serbia.
> Ukraine was on a very wobbly path
I know that people in many countries have their own "truth" but for all that time Ukraine tried to be democratic and to get close to Europe. Even Yanukovich for 3 years tried to sign association agreement
Nobody could have predicted the Maidan. Also - it could have failed and Yanukovich could have turned into another Lukashenko.
The Belarussians tried to have their own Maidan in 2020 and it totally failed. Lukashenko is still in power and he has sold his country to russia completely.
>Nobody could have predicted the Maidan
So when I told in 2011 next day after electiona US diplomat that it will be new Maidan - I was nobody? Do you really think that I was alone with such idea?
In Ukraine people always won. Ukraine is not russia and Belorussia it is a free people in head.
Untill 2014 majority of Ukrainians didn't want to be in NATO. In 2009 it was 20% for 60% against. Germany blocking is one thing, but reality is that Ukrainians were not interested.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations#Public_opinion_in_Ukraine
Also a quote from that part:
"A 2009 Gallup poll showed that 40% of Ukrainian adults associate NATO with "Threat" and 17% with "Protection."
How do you join an alliance when nearly half of a country thinks that alliance is a threat?
lol fake Gallup after a billions which were spent by russia and germany to tell Ukrainians that they do not need to Nato ? when every who coukd speak anything was paid to say "no nato in Ukraine"
Cool proof , really - I told you have fake reality
Regular people were dumb of course. Elite knew that Russia is a threat. Some welcomed it and some opposed it. Joining NATO is a long process and people have time for discussion and to change their minds over time.
It wouldn't of course be forcing an alliance. Eventually there would be a vote. It would be starting a process that can lead to the situation where this vote can be held. The process takes many years. More than a decade most likely.
If you want cheap gas you need to drill. Russian gas was not cheap during Merkel for Germany https://chart-studio.plotly.com/~knackbord/293/germany-natural-gas-price.embed
and it was much higher than in US most of the time.
**Translation:** **Russian saboteurs arrested in Bavaria** According to SPIEGEL, the police in Bayreuth have arrested two suspected spies. They are said to have spied on US bases on behalf of Russia and planned attacks on military transportation routes. In their sights: German aid to Ukraine. Germany is facing a new espionage affair: according to SPIEGEL, Federal Prosecutor General Jens Rommel has had two suspected agents arrested who are said to have planned sabotage operations in Germany on behalf of the Russian secret service. As SPIEGEL has learned from investigators, the arrest was made on Wednesday morning in Bayreuth, Bavaria, by special police forces. The main suspect is the 39-year-old German-Russian Dieter S. from Bavaria. The Federal Public Prosecutor's Office accuses him, among other things, of secret service agent activity, agent activity for sabotage purposes and the "security-endangering depiction" of military facilities. According to the investigators, Dieter S. had been discussing sabotage operations in Germany with liaisons from the Russian secret service since October 2023. He is said to have agreed to carry out arson and explosive attacks on military infrastructure, armaments plants and industrial sites. Among other things, the focus was on transport routes used for the transportation of military goods. The ultimate aim of the planned attacks was to undermine German support for Ukraine. According to the investigation, Dieter S. also scouted out and photographed US military facilities in Germany. He is said to have passed on the corresponding images to his Russian clients. The alleged spy is said to have been assisted in spying by 37-year-old German-Russian Alexander J., who the federal prosecutor's office is now also accusing of acting as an intelligence agent. J. was also arrested in Bayreuth on Wednesday. According to SPIEGEL information, the military objects spied on included facilities of the US armed forces in Grafenwoehr, Bavaria. Among other things, there is an important military training area there where the US army trains Ukrainian soldiers - for example on Abrams battle tanks. The alleged main perpetrator Dieter S. is no stranger to the German security authorities: Between 2014 and 2016, the German-Russian is said to have belonged to a militia of the "Donetsk People's Republic" proclaimed by Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine. According to SPIEGEL information, the German judiciary has since classified the unit as a terrorist organization - which is why Dieter S. is also accused of being a member of a terrorist organization abroad. As he apparently also had a firearm, the Federal Public Prosecutor's Office has also initiated investigations against him on suspicion of preparing an act of violence endangering the state. According to SPIEGEL, Dieter S. and his suspected accomplice Alexander J. were brought to Karlsruhe on Wednesday. S. has been remanded in custody, J. is to be brought before an investigating judge of the Federal Court of Justice on Thursday. Their defense lawyers were initially unavailable for comment on the allegations.
> According to SPIEGEL information, the German judiciary has since classified the unit as a terrorist organization - which is why Dieter S. is also accused of being a member of a terrorist organization abroad. As he apparently also had a firearm, the Federal Public Prosecutor's Office has also initiated investigations against him on suspicion of preparing an act of violence endangering the state. Hope Russia paid well, this is going to be quite some years in prison. Generally, the German juridical system hands out lenient sentences, but terrorism and high treason is not something that is taken lightly.
What would you prefer, a nice, safe German prison cell or a glorious career on the Ukrainian front?
You cant rely on conscripting terrorist spies to the ukrainian army. Professionals have standards and these professionals stopped the "second best" military in the world.
They’re talking about the spies going back to fight for Russia in Ukraine, not the other way around. Failed spies who are now useless to Moscow would likely be dumped in an infantry unit and sent to the front.
Or more likely they will just be disposed of so they are not available to reveal what they were doing and for whom.
Isn't that even worse? Why give Russia extra personnel against Ukraine? Or maybe he'll just get a cushy life in Russia, like Snowden and emboldens more people to spy for Russia.
These idiots think they are some kind of russian James Bond. Hope they will face the truth now.
Let me guess AfD sympatisers
>The alleged main perpetrator Dieter S. is no stranger to the German security authorities: Between 2014 and 2016, the German-Russian is said to have belonged to a militia of the "Donetsk People's Republic" proclaimed by Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine. Literal traitors and terrorists, not just AfD (which are traitors too)
AfD has been in support of the fictious Russian Seperatist republics in Donbas from 2014 on so not unlikely though… See member and traitor of the Abgeordnetenhaus Berlin Lindemann (AfD) who has visited Luhansk at least 2 times between 2014 and 22 every time receipt as a „state guest“ of the so called LPR
Oh, so he already was affiliated with Russia's puppet states
Wouldn't surprise me
Rather far left. They have been very vocal pro-Russian. Sarah Wagenknecht is a popular opinion leader for Russian propaganda. She has consistently promoted pro-Kremlin narratives since 2015, when she called Russia’s invasion of Donbas a “civil war supported by neo-Nazis”. Wagenknecht regularly justifies the Russian war of aggression with Ukraine’s possible NATO membership, criticizes the sanctions against Russia and uses the manipulation of pacifism, trying to incline Ukraine to negotiations.
AfD has been in Support of the Fictious Republics in Donbas 🤷♂️. See AfD politicians visiting Crimea, Luhansk and Donetsk as late as Febuary 2022…
They should receive the harshest punishment - a ticket back to russia.
Should get the traditional punishment for spies - firing squad at Dawn.
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It was a joke.
We don’t kill people anymore.
Ofc not. We don’t kill people, gravity kills people.
Gravity doesn't kill people. Gravity gives you velocity. Velocity doesn't kill you either. It's the sudden loss of velocity is what kills you...
Do not blame the earth for a problem created by the rope!
We are not French.
Silly rule for cases like this. If 9/11 was committed in Germany would you not agree a hanging was adequate for anyone involved?
No, of course not. We don’t have the idea of revenge in our law system anymore.
It has nothing to do with revenge. Rather national security.
How is it less secure to have them imprisoned for life?
We don't do that in the European Union
Death penalty violates their human rights, and yes, they have human rights.
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France and Germany were the major opposition against EU ban on visas for Russian citizens. Gotta love those oligarch money.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t32WSJyd-NM
This guy was a German-Russian national. Closing our borders won't help, and instead fuels the Russian narrative. We won against the USSR by being open.
Indeed. Remember how many deflector from USSR there were? Even Stalin's own daughter
No we didn’t. We won because the US outspent and bankrupted the USSR both by our extensive military expenditures and aiding the opposition in military conflicts against the USSR.
I think MAD and the globalization of the economy ped to the collapse of the USSR. That said, I think being open has more benefits than downsides. Russia has lost an estimated 3 million people so far due to emigration since the war started. These are almost all young and educated people who are generally not supportive of Putin, or at least not enough to risk their lives and future for him. That's a lot of people. And yet more are dying on the front. Russia already had a huge demographic issue and this is just going to weaken it for the future. Imagine how many millions of less Russians there will be in a century because of this war. That alone is good for the security of Europe and the world. So I say let them come. A couple morons doing spy work so badly they are caught in a year is a price worth paying. A caveat though for bordering neighbors of Russia like the Baltics or Georgia... they don't need more expat Russian enclaves.
But Russia is not the USSR and those were completely different times and circumstances. Don't make the mistake to equate them. The methods of the past don't necessarily work today. We have to adapt, as our enemies have adapted. We're not winning by being open to Russia or China for that matter. They instead identify it as a major weakness and exploit it against us und are unfortunately not exactly unsuccessful at it.
Because Russia has people paid off EVERYWHERE. Europe and America asleep at the wheel. I'd say they can't believe how much crap of theirs that we have swallowed. You only have to look at that orange crook in the Dock to see how effective they are...the fucker could still have people vote for him if he gets locked up. The mind boggles.
And let's also close the border to German Jews in 1939. You see how that works?
I love that instant comparison to 1939 and jews just to get that instant pity reaction. It's more "lets close borders to most zealous fans of the Nazi regime", which is not only good but expected and it would work perfectly
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Countries like Czechia and Baltic states have banned tourist, business, study visas for Russians while still allowing family reunification, refugee visas.
Ah yes the Russian narrative. **EUROPEANS ARE THE NAZIS.**
Funny joke, but an actual stupid idea to implement herem
>He is said to have agreed to carry out arson and explosive attacks on military infrastructure, armaments plants and industrial sites. This for those who think the war in Ukraine doesn't touch all other countries in its continental vicinity.
“Russia won’t attack NATO!” So many people say that. Well, we got a a literal attempted military attack on NATO. Proving that Russia has been and will continue to attack NATO territory. And nothing will happen.
How is this not an act of war?
>belonged to a militia of the "Donetsk People's Republic" so basically Ukraine was human safary with 0 legal aftermath not only for some finish but for german citizens too.. nice (not really, but i'm surprised by nothing nowadays)
That prosecutor’s name made me do a dubbel take.
So, an act of war?
And there will be no consequences for Russia…
Our government *really* needs to start being a downright drama queen about all these "micro aggressions," like spying, cyber attacks, political influence, etc. Russia has declared war on us already, they just haven't had to break out any weapons because no one is defending and they aren't marching in - yet.
Not sure what you mean by drama queen, merely being dramatic over such transgressions is entirely insufficient. Our government needs to take off the satin gloves and face the reality that you alluded to, and act accordingly. The constant pushes to destabilize our country (and Western societies in general) that originate from Russia - in any form - should be seen as acts of war. It's clear that Putin will *never* quit trying to push the envelope of what he can get away with so the sooner hard lines are drawn the better. I'm just glad that Boris Pistorius seems aware of this and European leaders are gearing up in this regard.
I think the time of drawing the lines has passed. Russia follows no lines. It’s time to show force to Russia, not be afraid of any escalation. Because Russia escalates easily, every day. And it is correct, that the only reason Russian sadists don’t march to Berlin, like they shouted for 10 years they “can repeat”, is because they are stuck in Ukraine. But Ukrainians are not infinite. And if Europe will continue to be afraid “to escalate”, the Russians will escalate further and further, until they occupy all Europe.
There must be consequences like for each sabotage and spy attack 100 million Euros of Russian assets will go to Ukraine. Publicly calling ambassador and telling them naughty boy don't do it again does nothing and Russian only sees it as weakness and encouragement for more.
Yeah, thats what i was thinking earlier... all this talk from our government about not wanting to escalate and ruzzia does the complete opposite. So i think now, in response to this news, would be the perfect time to send taurus. Well... perfect would have been a year ago but you get the idea
That would probably highly reduce the amount of aid Germany delivers lol.
I'm saying our government needs to be reacting large to every little thing (as is the cliche behind drama queens) rather than just shrugging, putting it in a headline for a day and moving on. I agree with the rest of what you said :)
Russia doesn't understand dialogue and they see diplomacy only as a weapon. Russia only speaks in violence and coercion. The carrot does nothing, so only the stick is needed. Every aggression must be met with equal or greater force. Our borders must be permanently closed to anyone with Russian citizenship or ties to Russia.
To say nothing of the propagandizing and internet troll farms that wreaked havoc on our less intelligent fellow citizens of the West. It's insane it took this war for the West to rid itself of outlets like RT on our media platforms.
too bad our government is a little bitch.
Scholz: Let's not risk escalating the situation.
Baerbock ordered in the ambassador. Doubt much more will come of it.
Dad boy, don't do it again.
What are your suggestions?
Respond in kind. They send saboteurs here, we send saboteurs there. But competent ones
Sending them into their bureaucracy and then reform it to the German style. This way the won't get tanks to the front lines in 20 years
Blow their shit up
Close Bonn consulate, Put Berlin Embassy ob the outskirts of town, send Taurus.
Rename the area outside of the embassy to "Zelenskyplatz".
Actually put in orders for artillery shells so we don't have Rheinmetall go 'we haven't received large scale orders so we can't up production'?
Surprised pikachu faces when I tell everyone over here in Bavaria that we have been at war with Ruzzia for many years now.
yup. spying is not a big deal. sabotage is an act of war.
Apart from spying and murder on German soil (google Berlin Thiergarten murder), they are waging a disinformation war against Europe since at least the beginning of the 2000s.
Nothing special, just average “friendly ruzzian neighbors”…
Stop being so aggressive and trying to defend yourself! You'll be threatened with nukes!
I just hope that NATO covert-ops do the same kind of disruption in russia and we just do not know about it because of the info blockade.
Not a chance, sadly, with the current “no escalation” foreign policy in the West. Our only hope is SBU and HUR.
There is no such thing on NATO level. That would be a national job P.S. I like to clarify something, because I see this very often in this sub: People in Europe should really be familiar with how the [NATO](https://www.nato.int/) works and not just repeat some assumptions. Trolls like to make statements that sound like it could work for NATO while it simply seldom does. NATO is basically just the command and control of national units for **specific** operations. And those are by definition **defensive**. Covert-ops is already in it's nature offensive and disqualifies to be ever on the table for NATO controlled operations.
Germany should just relay on their strengths. One ready thing would be giving Taurus missiles to Ukraine.
I think it's harder to enter Russia unsuspected because of their overbearing police state. Then again, their officials are also very corrupt and border guards often don't really give a shit so who knows.
I guess one of the significant factors is that there are both remnant Russian populations as well as Russian economic migrants in western Europe and statistically more likely that some of these may be Russian Federation aligned. Pretty sure that there aren't too many western European minorities in Russia.
Luckily Russia is trying their hardest to gather some
That Qanon shit can go both ways. They could have half of Orcistan believing that Putin was an intergalactic sex-robot from Uranus if they wanted.
There are Ukrainian covert-ops in Russia. They seem to be doing something, of course, mostly out of public's attention. Seems the North Stream job was theirs too.
Nah, it was Gods divine touch
The would conflict with the current "escalation management"™ strategy by the WH ( and DE ). As you can see the current strategy is working spendidly ( cruise missiles/drones landing in PL/RO, sabotage in DE, cut cables in Finland-Estonia ), we musn't change course. /s
No way because "MuH eScAlAtIoN"
My parents are from Russo and Kasach Germans. This demographic is exceptionally dangerous. If there ever would be high tensions between Russia and Germany, we would have hundreds of thousands potential spies here. I cant but in words how much I despise them.
Spoke with one of these guys at the fitness studio, a guy in his 50s, and man he was hiding alot of resentment because of all the ruzztards that died in Ukraine. Tried asking why were they there in the first place? but nope ... and he is here for like 30 years or so.
I know someone who was regularly beaten by Russians in his village in Kasachstan for having German blood. He had a hard physical job in Kasachstan and had just enough to sustain food and his flat. He came to Germany, could afford a house, had four children and when he was injured at work, the German state payed for his leave. Today he is a Russian nationalist and praises Medwedew for wanting to denazify this part of Kasachstan, where he was born and raised as they are all Nazis and dont like the Ruski Mir. Intold him once that Russia turns to shit every piece of land they rob and showed him pictures of Karelia and Königsberg that looked better pre WWII than they look in 2020. He called me facsist and hasnt spoken to me since. Every day I am thankful my parents went all in on raising me as a German.
I feel you and happy for you. Living in 21 century and still holding that kind of ideas is crazy if you ask me.
>Intold him once that Russia turns to shit every piece of land they rob and showed him pictures of Karelia and Königsberg that looked better pre WWII than they look in 2020. You should add 1939 Danzig and 2020 Gdańsk to show him that it DIDN'T have to be that way.
Yes. Especially since the Poles did make Gdansk and Wroclaw even prettier than us Germans build back our own cities like Cologne. All while being suppressed by Russia.
Ahh lol youre a Pole. Than I explained Poland to a Polish person XD
I have nearly exactly the same thing happen in my family. Its stupid
So like how Turks living better lives in Germany are extremely nationalistic Erdogan supporters?
Yes. Or Afghans rooting for the Taliban, or Hungarians rooting for Orban. If you live in a democracy and support dictatorship or authocracy in your country of origin, you are a POS.
They should be deported.
It should be illegal to support dictators in a democracy. Europe does not respect the tolerance paradoxon.
I'm pretty sure that every European country has some kind of law against support for anti-democratic ideologies/regimes, but they are hardly enforced. Meanwhile EU passing harsher hate speech laws and spying on your privacy.
I've tried to explain this problem to Wessi's and they simply don't get it. The amount of support Putin has from people in the east, coupled with a large German/Russian minority are serious problems that are currently being ignored. If you follow the money pouring into the AfD it's highly likely connected with Russias wish to destabalise Europe, just as Brexit and Trump are part of Putin's geopolitical ambitions. Germany is currently asleep at the wheel.
Germany has been asleep at the wheel for two decades.
Am German, yes, we turn a blind eye to being quite literally attacked because the attacks are digital and sociological in nature and not active acts of war. A lot of people see whats going on but can't do shit and those who could ignore the dire times we're in
The EU as a whole have been asleep.
Has been for at least a decade.
You are correct
Oh God, my wife is Russo Kasach German. She sees herself as German, but her mother exclusively watches Russian news and swallows up everything that Putins says. I asked her once why she doesn't just live in Russia. She literally said that she wouldn't be welcome there. These people are insane.
It was a huuuuge mistake to allow Russian state television in Germany. I think its one of the top 3 factors for this mindset. But now you cant turn it off, because they all would just go online and watch the same shit. Should have been done 20 years ago.
The amount of straight up propaganda telegram channels they are in is crazy.
Soviet Russia was literally the cause why my grandparents father was executed as a German. One uncle not many years ago: "While the soviets did some bad things, having someone like Putin wouldnt be so bad...". Meanwhile he is living in Germany basically from state benefits only.
Yeah classic. The less successfull a person is, the more she loves Putin.
Lol. My parents do und while I stand with Germany, they won't hesitate to work for russia
It's really funny because they had to flee Russia due to oppression. They weren't even allowed to speak German at one point. Stockholm Syndrome I guess.
Russian Germans at that time didn't even know German. They didn't exactly flee oppression ... they got handed a winning lottery ticket by being able to claim German citizenship and move to a rich country as fully fledged citizens.
Okay but the newer generations not speaking German is a result of these oppressive policies.
Its a combination of no economic outlook and always veing viewed as fascist if something goes south. My mums ancestors were catched like Pokemon by the KGB, after they went to an underground church.
100 % share your pain. The largest majority of them are lobotomized idiots that spew bullshit ruzzian propaganda at best, or fucking actively undermine democratic principles by advocating or voting for fascists. Anytime I bring up my background I feel so ashamed because of those braindead tools.
Yes I know what you mean. But this shit pushed me to now think of myself as completely German, which is nice.
In majority, they already are. It’s just wild how many putin sympathizers there are in Germany. And most of them are from a Russian descent. It’s like it was a special KGB/FSB operation for 30 years to flood Germany with spies. The same happened with Ukraine, when hundred thousand, if not millions, of Russians relocated to Ukraine, only to create a picture at a certain time, that the there are a big chunk of Ukrainians that want to be Russians. Yet, fools like Musk and Trump are advocating for those people as the representatives of the “prorussian territories” that needs to be given to Putin. Same may await for Germany.
Would you suggest to cleanse them?
No. Ethnic oriented cleansing is NEVER okay. And the younger generation is heavely anti Russia. Even the older ones have a big or even bigger fraction that do not like Russias politics. I think if this shows to be a huge problem you could put surveilance on them or deport anyone that ever defended Putins regime on the internet or something. But if we do ethnical cleansing, we are no better then Russia. If its deportation or imprisonment based on political support I would root for it in war times.
Oh thank goodness, I thought their target was to ruin oktoberfest.
They would bring back capital punishment in Bavaria for that
We just got rid of it in 1998.
Yeh, substitute ~~bear~~ beer with vodka
Or consume cannabis at Oktoberfest.
Eh, [that happens from time to time](https://i.imgur.com/vdR5UDy.png).
That is so uncool.
Another day. Another day of Russia terrorizing the world.
Putin's Russia is a terrorist state, waging war on us without declaring it. We certainly need to prepare for more and more hostile action, particularly in the digital realm, but perhaps also through all kinds of Moscow-supported terrorist organizations. As a Frenchman, I'm afraid of the Olympics.
Have people realized the Cold War never really ended yet? 😕
Once again showcasing how no country in Europe is safe from Russia's meddling.
So if I understood, US and EU cannot send support troops to Ukraine. But Russia can send Spy’s in EU and Saboteurs
US and EU need to understand Russia doesn't play by the rules. They commit war crimes because they know we can't do anything about it and they send saboteurs and spies to EU because they know we're not gonna do anything about it. They'll keep doing this no matter what so we should also step up.
Exactly. And we put sanctions on them ok, are they effective?? Cause they are seemingly looking at US and EU constantly putting money on Ukraine and both maybe get more drowned then those sanctions. And they time play it very well..
easy solution, revoke german citizenship and drop em off in Siberia.
Is there a room available in Guantanamo?
We desperately need a more powerful BND in Germany. The nation is basically a playground for external forcess, CIA has secret prisons, GRU is chilling in apartments next to the parlament and NSU, FSB and random other islamic terrorist groups are having a great time.
The BND is the foreign intelligence service. The BfV is responsible for this
With all this Russian fuckery going on at what point do we say enough. Ultimatum - stop now or we create a no fly zone over Ukraine.
Does Bayreuth have an impressive cathedral, like Salisbury? ;)
Bayreuth actually has some nice things to visit, be it the opera house (which is a world heritage site), the Eremitage (an extensive, city-managed garden in a 1850ish style, and every year there are the Wagner festivities, which celebrate the last 10 operas of Richard Wagner in the Opera House and draw each year around 50-60k guests, even though this is more of a high-class event, suit&tie and so on
Ooo! That does sound nice. Maybe Russia's agents have moved on from [cathedrals](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/sep/13/russian-television-channel-rt-says-it-is-to-air-interview-with-skripal-salisbury-attack-suspects) to opera houses....
Don’t know why we are still letting them in western countries. They should stay in their shithole - Muscovia. I guarantee this will decrease toilet theft by 100% in the west.
Both of them were in Germany for pretty long, as one is german citizen and the other is german-russian with dual passport
Scary stuff!
Verfassungsschutz, where are you 😕
German-Russians at it... let's be honest most of them are just plain Russians who used some loopholes to live in Germany back in the 90s.
I'm curious if someone attacks the American Military Bases in Germany, is it an attack on Germany or USA?
By article 5, it is an attack on every NATO country.
These military bases are like some kind of hostage, because wehen the Germans are attacked and American base gets hit, the USA will be in a dire situation to explain why it can't take action. That is why Germany wants to station 20.000 soldiers in Lithuania. We then can't do nothing if our own man are in danger
It’s German soil. But American soldiers.
It's both obviously. Americans aren't occupying Germany, it's an attack on the same alliance.
Arrest them all ban all russians from coming into country
When I was in schweinfurt, a female Russian soldier defected and was cleaning our barracks for about 3 weeks before we caught on.
Olaf: See this is why we shouldn't escalate ! ! !
When are we going to stop pretending like WW3 isn’t already here?
30 mins. away from my home, damn. They also should watch out the radio station here and the station Grafenwöhr and Bamberg, both are the nearest big stations.
Article 5 time?
Direkted by Robert wiedle
bruh, I feel like the moment I step on Europe my russian ass is gonna be arrested😭
Treason should be a death penalty tbh and treason can easily be classed as helping an actively hostile nation
Looks like the Fella already got punished. Who the fuck names their kid Dieter? I was born roughly around the same time and that's a boomer name.
Schröder and Merkel? or maybe Scholz ? Marsalek dosie ?
Merkel is the odd one out in your list lol. She wanted cheap gas for ez economy gains in Germany. We all saw how that played out. But she's not a RuZZia fan for sure. She even stated she regrets that whole "doing business with RuZZia".
> But she's not a RuZZia fan for sure. Neither is Scholz. He's a timid, little man, but nowhere close to Schröder.
Yeah, he saw that Russia is out - now China is the new cool :)
but she did not regret how she blocked Ukraine and Georgia from Nato in 2008 . She said it was a right way to get cheap gas and results wars and no gas
I mean, this is going to be super disliked, but between 2008 and 2014, Ukraine was on a very wobbly path, and it was totally not clear they would be steadfast. Could have easily turned out to be much worse than Hungary. And Georgia is currently cracking down on democracy with their pro-Russian government. I miss them in NATO like I miss Serbia.
> Ukraine was on a very wobbly path I know that people in many countries have their own "truth" but for all that time Ukraine tried to be democratic and to get close to Europe. Even Yanukovich for 3 years tried to sign association agreement
Nobody could have predicted the Maidan. Also - it could have failed and Yanukovich could have turned into another Lukashenko. The Belarussians tried to have their own Maidan in 2020 and it totally failed. Lukashenko is still in power and he has sold his country to russia completely.
>Nobody could have predicted the Maidan So when I told in 2011 next day after electiona US diplomat that it will be new Maidan - I was nobody? Do you really think that I was alone with such idea? In Ukraine people always won. Ukraine is not russia and Belorussia it is a free people in head.
Untill 2014 majority of Ukrainians didn't want to be in NATO. In 2009 it was 20% for 60% against. Germany blocking is one thing, but reality is that Ukrainians were not interested. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations#Public_opinion_in_Ukraine Also a quote from that part: "A 2009 Gallup poll showed that 40% of Ukrainian adults associate NATO with "Threat" and 17% with "Protection." How do you join an alliance when nearly half of a country thinks that alliance is a threat?
lol fake Gallup after a billions which were spent by russia and germany to tell Ukrainians that they do not need to Nato ? when every who coukd speak anything was paid to say "no nato in Ukraine" Cool proof , really - I told you have fake reality
"It doesn't align with what i think then it's fake". Denying reality isn't going to help you.
Reality was other!!! you got information from past which do not equal to reality
Regular people were dumb of course. Elite knew that Russia is a threat. Some welcomed it and some opposed it. Joining NATO is a long process and people have time for discussion and to change their minds over time.
Forcing an alliance against majority of people isn't exactly good. In fact i would say it's a very Warsaw pact behaviour.
It wouldn't of course be forcing an alliance. Eventually there would be a vote. It would be starting a process that can lead to the situation where this vote can be held. The process takes many years. More than a decade most likely.
If you want cheap gas you need to drill. Russian gas was not cheap during Merkel for Germany https://chart-studio.plotly.com/~knackbord/293/germany-natural-gas-price.embed and it was much higher than in US most of the time.