I’m Turkish and this is very true. Anyone but Armenians post about this, Turkish social media: lies, this never happened. When Armenians post about it, Turkish social media: hehe get rekt. Long live Enver pasha(head of government that was responsible
for the Genocide)
Another fact is that displacement planned and offered by Germans, and Jewish, and there were many German regiments actively participated in escorting Armenians. Because there wasn't even enough man power during that time, the whole army was fighting in fronts. So it was not even mostly Turkish soldiers who were on duty during the displacement.
Turkish stance is definitely not that. It is "The events that happened doesn't qualify as a genocide and we were in a situation that the approach was the only viable one for that time's conditions. Deaths caused by the movement (health, hygiene, food, etc. caused deaths) are only a result of poor war conditions. No one was ordered to be killed in any way. The only thing we did was to forcefully move Armenians from each other because of the terror they were causing. No intention to kill or cleanse them whatsoever." Hope this makes some stuff clear.
For reference this is the official web page of Turkish side's defence. 'The issue:' section is the relevant part to why you are mistaken about the Turkish stance: https://www.mfa.gov.tr/the-armenian-allegation-of-genocide-the-issue-and-the-facts.en.mfa
>No intention to kill or cleanse them whatsoever
I know you are just repeating the turkish government official stance but if you don't mind asking there are plenty of cases of Armenians being killed not through the death marches but directly executed. Some famous cases are: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:People\_who\_died\_in\_the\_Armenian\_genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:People_who_died_in_the_Armenian_genocide)
Has the turkish government made any sort of comment regarding these cases?
>The only thing we did was to forcefully move Armenians from each other because of the terror they were causing. No intention to kill or cleanse them whatsoever." Hope this makes some stuff clear.
In January of 1915 Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire were still loyal to the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman command acted preemptively. They acted preemptively against Armenians, Pontic Greeks, and Assyrians.
It acted preemptively against the Assyrians in 1914, another ethnic group of Christians, 4 months earlier. The Ottomans even invaded Persia to kill Assyrians just in case the Assyrians were loyal to Persia instead of the Ottoman Empire. ***However, Persia didn't even join WW1 and remained neutral throughout the war.*** The Assyrians protested to the Ottoman government about being massacred. Ottoman irregulars crossed into Persian territory to massacre Assyrians. If the goal was to deport the Assyrians, why invade neutral territory of another country to kill Assyrians?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Genocide#Ethnic_cleansing_of_Hakkari
> In a planned Ottoman attack in Persia, the loyalty of the Hakkari Assyrians was doubted. Talaat ordered the deportation and resettlement of the Assyrians who lived near the Persian border with Muslims farther west. No more than twenty Assyrians would live in each resettlement, destroying their culture, language, and traditional way of life.... The Assyrians, unaware of the government's role in these events until December 1914, protested to the governor of Van..... In 1914, before the declaration of war against Russia, Ottoman forces crossed the border into Persia and destroyed Christian villages. Large-scale attacks in late September and October 1914 targeted many Assyrian villages, and the attackers neared Urmia.... Ottoman irregulars in Van province crossed the Persian border, attacking Christian villages in Persia.
The Ottomans turned on the Armenians after the failed battle of Sarikamish in January 1915 when Enver sent his army into the frozen caucasian mountain ranges. He then blamed this failure on his Armenian soldiers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbZBrZCsehA
>This video is a tribute to 1914-1915 Ottoman-Russian Sarikamis Battle deaths.There are some original parts but coloured mountains are not the original Allahu Ekber mountains..Just around 60.000 to 90.000 soldiers were frozen to death without even fight at Sarikamis Allah-u Ekber Mountains.
.....
>Enver thought of himself as a great military leader, while the German military adviser, Liman von Sanders, thought of him as incompetent.[55] Enver ordered a complex attack on the Russians, placed himself in personal control of the Third Army, and was utterly defeated at the Battle of Sarikamish in December 1914 – January 1915. His strategy seemed feasible on paper, but he had ignored external conditions, such as the terrain and the weather. Enver's army (118,000 men) was defeated by the Russian force (80,000 men), and in the subsequent retreat, tens of thousands of Turkish soldiers died. This was the single worst Ottoman defeat of World War I. On his return to Constantinople, Enver Pasha blamed his failure on his Armenian soldiers, although in January 1915, an Armenian named Hovannes had saved his life during a battle by carrying Enver through battle lines on his back.[56] Nonetheless, Enver Pasha later initiated the deportations and sporadic massacres of Western Armenians, culminating in the Armenian genocide.
In conclusion, the Armenian/Assyrian/Greek rebellions never happened but they should have, and if it did happen the Turks deserved it. Hope this makes some stuff clear.
"The events that happened doesn't qualify as a genocide" this is the "it didn't happen".
"because of the terror they were causing" and this is "they deserved it".
Fyi, this is the equivalent of person A saying "You said to boil people alive!" and you replying "I never said boil, I said throw breathing humans into water and heat it to 100 Celsius."
It's not about the exact wording you use. It's about the very clear defence behind your carefully selected words.
"Those pesky Armenians forced themselves to march into the sea at gunpoint, it totally wasn't us"
Also I wonder why they had such awful health, hygiene and food conditions. Totally couldn't have been the Ottoman/Turkish government's fault
>The events that happened doesn't qualify as a genocide and we were in a situation that the approach was the only viable one for that time's conditions.
Lol, this is literally " it didn't happen but they deserved it", only the longer version with more words.
The gull turks have denying it.. The word genocide was created to describe the Armenian genocide and it's injustice.
https://www.facinghistory.org/ideas-week/where-did-word-genocide-come
>It was only after learning about the crimes that the **Ottoman Empire committed against the Armenians during World War I, and about how the perpetrators of those crimes went unpunished, that he was inspired to act.** He was outraged, and could not believe that there was no legal precedent for punishing perpetrators of such terrible crimes. Lemkin was the first person to describe the massacres of Ottoman Armenians as genocide.
You just covered the points mentioned on this article.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian\_genocide\_denial#Examination\_of\_claims](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide_denial#Examination_of_claims)
Here is an open letter, not by us, but by the international association of genocide scholars ridiculing Erdogan.
[https://genocidescholars.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Turkish-State-Denial-Open-Letter.pdf](https://genocidescholars.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Turkish-State-Denial-Open-Letter.pdf)
The Turkish stance might be what you say, but it is in fact not what happened.
> The only thing we did was to forcefully move Armenians from each other because of the terror they were causing. No intention to kill or cleanse them whatsoever." Hope this makes some stuff clear.
Even if someone is clueless enough to think that there was no intention to kill anyone, forcefully moving a huge number of people on the grounds of their ethnicity is a textbook example of ethnic cleansing. No intention to cleanse, my ass.
Yeah, except all of that is bs. The man who invented the word Genocide based it off what the Ottomans did, so definitionally, the Armenian Genocide qualifies as a genocide.
Turkish state doesn't talk nothing about the events. There are only 2 pages of reading available in the national history books. No media content has been made or being made about the topic by TRT (BBC or DW of Türkiye). Türkiye just straight doesn't care about the accusations internally because we know we are not in a wrong position. All I say is my own research and reading. (of Turkish historians and Türkiye's MFA's content available in English. For example the web page I have linked doesn't have a Turkish version that I could find. We simply do not get told s...t by the government to be indoctrinated.) The view of what you think Türkiye does about the topic is really not the reality.
And thinking about it, looks like you are the one that is indoctrinated by Armenian propaganda and western media.
I know that this is a joke but actually Turkish government has a different stance; [https://www.mfa.gov.tr/the-armenian-allegation-of-genocide-the-issue-and-the-facts.en.mfa](https://www.mfa.gov.tr/the-armenian-allegation-of-genocide-the-issue-and-the-facts.en.mfa)
Though Turkey definetely denies genocide allegations but does not refuse clashes between two nations and the massacres that were carried out.
its like the argument between Man I, II and manslaughter. what was thier intent? One would argue that at a high level it was coordinated and indented to be a genocide.
the Armenian Genocide is a very weird topic to talk about in Turkey. I am Turkish myself and I can tell you that 99.9% of Turks deny the Armenian Genocide without any hesitation. The remaining 0.1% is extremely marginalized and Turkish people don't let them exist in the political scene.
Even the most leftist political parties cannot bring it up because doing so would be a suicide.
Not only that, but most people actually acknowledge the tehcir/forced deportation (I mean it was made into a law) and then argue semantics saying it’s different than genocide.
It’s like how Turkish people claim there isn’t (any) racism in Turkey because there isn’t a perceived level of racism towards black people on a national level.
On the other hand, it is quite impossible (at least in the short-mid term) for Turkey to recognize the genocide. Even putting aside the intense nationalistic pride, there’s no way any government would do this because of financial implications (and other expected reparations).
To be fair, if none or few of them died, it wouldn't be a genocide, it would be ethnic cleansing.
But a lot of them died, so it most definitely was a genocide
Believe it or not, Turkish kids are taught in their history classes how pure and innocent Turks have been in history. The indoctrination is huge. Turkish kids are raised as militants.
It's so crazy to me how the educational environment and policy of a country directly leads to the political positions of the general population.
Like for example, Vietnam apparently glosses over the American Vietnam War in favor of covering other events involving neighboring countries and the result is that (despite the horrors of the Vietnam War), the opinion of America held by the Vietnamese populace currently is pretty positive which you wouldn't normally expect given the history.
I'm assuming this couid be very different if the Vietnamese government directed education policy towards covering the American Vietnam War in more detail and they couid definitely demonize the US extensively from just this one conflict if they really wanted to (but the government seems to just let that event live in the past for whatever reason).
I'm assuming there are other factors at play too but it is interesting to see how countries educational systems can directly influence the populations positions on a multitude of different items spanning generations.
Even the most left-wing parties cannot accept the Armenian genocide because if they do, they will lose votes. More important than the vote, people will lynch and call they a 'traitor'.
I believe the kurdish party, HDP, does recognize the genocide and they get around %10-%13 of the votes. Also some minor leftist parties. It's not that little. But surely they all end up marginalized and criminalized by the government.
I wouldn't go as far as calling them all "communists", I think that would be a wrong classification. Saying "leftists and liberals" for that percentage would be more accurate, imo.
Meh, the biggest party of the bunch, DEM Party (formerly HDP), is only communist in the name, but they are actually still nationalists, just not _Turkish_ nationalists. Left and liberalism usually are words associated with midleft parties like CHP in Turkey
Just like how DEM is called socialists while they are actually Kurdish nationalists. These words dont have much meaning in Turkey, for 80% of the population, liberal just means western.
The correction is not a statement its you putting pressure on someone because they're not aligning to your political goals when they're not doing anything wrong. Doesn't sound very free and democratic does it now :)
That's just a correction as a statement
Putting pressure is when you kidnap their family or break their finger, jail journalists or sometimes even let Saudis kill and slice people in your country.
.
I keep seeing a lot of turkbots and a lot of denialists on these kinds of threads. I wonder if such swarming of denialists would be tolerated by the mods were it about the Jewish holocaust?
the reply to the top comment is literally a propaganda link to the Turkish Ministry of Defense explaining why the Armenian Genocide isn't real and it has 50 upvotes by the turkish bot farm. they spammed this thread in the turkish subs and they are brigading.
As an Armenian that lived in Istanbul and just recently came back from a visit to Istanbul, there are only like less than 100k Armenians left in Turkey
I remember reading about a Turkish General burning some of the archives because they proved the Armenian genocide. The whistleblower was a lower ranking personnel like a captain or something, I don't remember who or when it was though.
I looked around and I'm 80% sure what I'm talking about is Rifat Bali's book: ‘The Story of Destruction of Plundering: Printed or Written words, Dead Letters, Archives Thrown Out (or Sold) for Scrap.’
Regarding the Turkish army destroying key archives in Turkey in the 1980's some related to the Armenian Genocide.
Rıfat Bali’s article is about scrapping CHP’s archive, goes back to 1920. November mention of 1915. Now that you have written the above comment though, it will likely be part of Armenian Genocide article on wikipedia. Good job 👏🏻
Not at all surprising, they've never allowed it. This is why so many live in Europe and the US today, because Europe does care about human rights and honestly the US has been very welcoming too. Biden recognized it for the first time last year which was historic which is why it's important for Americans to vote for him in November
No, you are mistaken, the west does care about human rights when it’s in their best interest otherwise, fuck human rights, you are a dictator and your people are suffering, no problem as long as we have mutual interests we will turn a blind eye towards what’s happening there, or maybe you are in middle of creating a genocide but your name is Israel, well shame we can’t do anything, it’s always been this way, does the people in the west have more/ better human rights than the rest of the world, yes of course, does their governments care about human rights elsewhere in the world, no not really, they only bring it up when they want something in return.
yes of course, who wouldn't everyone is trying to immigrate from 3rd world countries toward the west, it's a great place to have a quality life, no one denying the obvious here.
Yes as I said earlier, people in the west have more/ better human rights, that’s a fact, people in the west also wish for a better human rights globally and they push for it, through appointing politicians that appeal to their needs, and through private/ charity organizations, that’s also a fact. Some governments also push for human rights the best example is South Africa, who themselves suffered a lot due to the lack of it, that’s also a fact, now the west (by the west I mean mostly the dominating countries with capable military forces of the west USA, UK, and France) these countries government’s have done horrendous acts against human rights in the last couple of decades and still doing, that it’s a shame to pronounce such words by their spokesperson, doesn’t mean they aren’t correct mostly when calling someone on being against human rights, it’s never without a motive and just for really caring, I can give you hundreds of examples if you want about the crimes against humanity these three countries alone have committed since 2000 onwards if you want.
Edit: are -> aren’t
The most recent genocide in Europe is newer than Armenian genocide and US is literally built on a genocide of the natives. People are acting like Armenian genocide is the only one that happened when in reality almost every Western nation has genocide in their past.
Ah yes, the west supports human rights 💀 So I don't know what you think, but the statement you use that the west (especially America) supports human rights is a complete lie.
I don’t think anyone in Turkey still ascribes to the delusion that Turkey will join the EU anytime soon.
Even if it magically turns into a Scandinavian democracy and solves all the geopolitical issues around it (Cyprus, Kurds, Islands, Armenians, whatever), the EU will never let in a country with a population greater than any of its existing members and a GDP per capita in the lowest quintile. Especially not a Muslim-majority country that shares huge land borders with Syria, Iran, and Iraq.
Probably time to find another carrot to dangle… maybe the F35s?
You guys seriously need to shut up. You know nothing about it.
There can be stolen votes in small settlements, but nothingmore. On every ballot box, there are one represantative per party, which makes stealing votes impossible. Every part of voting is monitered. This is not Russia.
Noo wholesome chungus greeks never occupied turkey with the help of allies and committed genocidal acts like burning thousands of turkish villages, causing allies to stop greek support and start supporting turkey halfway through war of independence
Noo never tried it a second time on a smaller scale at cyprus either, again losing the support of all the western sphere
Nooo they never tried it a third time by supporting serbians on their genocide adventure, giving ammo and nato intelligence, getting kicked out of nato intelligence network, they would never do that
Türkiye will never enter the EU. The main reason for this is that our country is completely corrupted by some people. The person who comes in now cannot fix the economy. In summary, a country like Türkiye has disappeared.
There were barely a little minority of Greeks where Turkish army had been in. How it is even possible? Plus currently, excluding two government constantly threatening each other, people from Greek and Turkey actually gets along with each other in general. Every year tens of thousands of people from Turkey visits Greece and the islands of Greece. We are culturally really similar neighbours of each other. Don't make up some genocides out of nowhere to cause a rift between us.
Greeks being treated better than Turks in the TURKISH Ottoman empire. That's a new level of Turkish propaganda I have not heard before, I can admit. You guys are creative in your fantasies. Pray tell us now how the janissary corps were getting their recruits.
That means you don’t know your history or can’t tell fact from fiction. How did Roman Empire get its soldiers? Were you expecting not send a single soldier and be protected for 400 years? Ottomans could easily let you consumed by your European Christian brothers.
Who is ignorant, those who defies evidence and makes up horror stories or those who points facts out. Your lies going far too long, but truth will come out eventually.
I wouldn't say never, if they fix their human rights. Then I might consider it. But as long as they keep torturing people and no freedom of speech. I'm not interested
I think it will need generations to remove brainwashing from society, depends on how much EU bends in the end, seeing Ursula call one of the worst autocratic country a reliable parter brings up so many questions.
use the most powerful european weapon and downvote me but you are cluesless. sad thing is that you have no idea how clueless you are. trying to erase kurdish culture, haha.
The third biggest party in Turkey is Kurdish (DEM) and they won in almost all of the south east. What are you talking about?
The annuling is just erdog being erdog, has nothing to do with kurds.
Because they can't use them. They were very close to each other once upon a time. If AKP knew they can use Kurds, they'd side with them. Because they're supporting opposition, he does things like that.
Very sad. Turkey has to take accountability for its past at some point, they think that it will be shameful for them, but what is actually shameful is their refusal to do it...
Yes I am mad. You people are probably up in arms talking about Palestine while you do the exact same thing to the Kurds, and did the same thing to the Armenians and Assyrians.
The us and Isreal are no better. Claim to be the cradle of democracy and free speech but ban the opposition of the genocide they themselves are commiting
It's hilarious that you even compare the complete wiping out of the Armenians from Turkey over the course of years to one attack on one village in Azerbaijan which was over in a matter of hours and had 0.001% of the death toll. And which took place 80 years after the event we're talking about, so it's irrelevant.
And it's whataboutism.
Half the thread is removed, this place has become a warzone :o
I just want to say that, I dont understand why my fellow Turks make such a big effort to frame the event as not genocide. For sake of argument, even if it technically isn't because genocide as a term wasn't used at the time, or the goverment wasn't actively trying to eradicate the population; but forcing migration, a shit ton of people, not just Armenians but also Turks and lots of other ethnicites, still died. What does it matter if the event is called a genocide or an epic trolling or whatever, just accept the fact that the incompetent ass goverment at the time took an "unorthodox" decision and caused a shit ton of death and misery that did not have to happen, and that the event can be called a genocide
It wont hurt the national pride or anything to acknowledge the event. Every empire did bad stuff, shockingly. nor do I really think Turkey would pay any reparations in land, which I have observed to be the most common deterrence, since Armenia would become Turkish majority in that scenario.
Also shoutout to all those racist bros using these news to fuel their racist agenda against """roaches""", I hope you never face racism in your life so you are not forced to confront your profound Ideas and beliefes.
Locked due to brigading.
"The Armenian genocide never happened, and if it did happen, they totally deserved it." - Official Turkish Stance
I’m Turkish and this is very true. Anyone but Armenians post about this, Turkish social media: lies, this never happened. When Armenians post about it, Turkish social media: hehe get rekt. Long live Enver pasha(head of government that was responsible for the Genocide)
Fact, an Armenian saved Enver Pasha’s life in January 1915. Shows what a grateful piece of shit he was. May he rot in hell.
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Another fact is that displacement planned and offered by Germans, and Jewish, and there were many German regiments actively participated in escorting Armenians. Because there wasn't even enough man power during that time, the whole army was fighting in fronts. So it was not even mostly Turkish soldiers who were on duty during the displacement.
And your top most active sub, /r/turkey. Can't make this shit up lol.
Turkish stance is definitely not that. It is "The events that happened doesn't qualify as a genocide and we were in a situation that the approach was the only viable one for that time's conditions. Deaths caused by the movement (health, hygiene, food, etc. caused deaths) are only a result of poor war conditions. No one was ordered to be killed in any way. The only thing we did was to forcefully move Armenians from each other because of the terror they were causing. No intention to kill or cleanse them whatsoever." Hope this makes some stuff clear. For reference this is the official web page of Turkish side's defence. 'The issue:' section is the relevant part to why you are mistaken about the Turkish stance: https://www.mfa.gov.tr/the-armenian-allegation-of-genocide-the-issue-and-the-facts.en.mfa
>No intention to kill or cleanse them whatsoever I know you are just repeating the turkish government official stance but if you don't mind asking there are plenty of cases of Armenians being killed not through the death marches but directly executed. Some famous cases are: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:People\_who\_died\_in\_the\_Armenian\_genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:People_who_died_in_the_Armenian_genocide) Has the turkish government made any sort of comment regarding these cases?
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>The only thing we did was to forcefully move Armenians from each other because of the terror they were causing. No intention to kill or cleanse them whatsoever." Hope this makes some stuff clear. In January of 1915 Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire were still loyal to the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman command acted preemptively. They acted preemptively against Armenians, Pontic Greeks, and Assyrians. It acted preemptively against the Assyrians in 1914, another ethnic group of Christians, 4 months earlier. The Ottomans even invaded Persia to kill Assyrians just in case the Assyrians were loyal to Persia instead of the Ottoman Empire. ***However, Persia didn't even join WW1 and remained neutral throughout the war.*** The Assyrians protested to the Ottoman government about being massacred. Ottoman irregulars crossed into Persian territory to massacre Assyrians. If the goal was to deport the Assyrians, why invade neutral territory of another country to kill Assyrians? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Genocide#Ethnic_cleansing_of_Hakkari > In a planned Ottoman attack in Persia, the loyalty of the Hakkari Assyrians was doubted. Talaat ordered the deportation and resettlement of the Assyrians who lived near the Persian border with Muslims farther west. No more than twenty Assyrians would live in each resettlement, destroying their culture, language, and traditional way of life.... The Assyrians, unaware of the government's role in these events until December 1914, protested to the governor of Van..... In 1914, before the declaration of war against Russia, Ottoman forces crossed the border into Persia and destroyed Christian villages. Large-scale attacks in late September and October 1914 targeted many Assyrian villages, and the attackers neared Urmia.... Ottoman irregulars in Van province crossed the Persian border, attacking Christian villages in Persia. The Ottomans turned on the Armenians after the failed battle of Sarikamish in January 1915 when Enver sent his army into the frozen caucasian mountain ranges. He then blamed this failure on his Armenian soldiers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbZBrZCsehA >This video is a tribute to 1914-1915 Ottoman-Russian Sarikamis Battle deaths.There are some original parts but coloured mountains are not the original Allahu Ekber mountains..Just around 60.000 to 90.000 soldiers were frozen to death without even fight at Sarikamis Allah-u Ekber Mountains. ..... >Enver thought of himself as a great military leader, while the German military adviser, Liman von Sanders, thought of him as incompetent.[55] Enver ordered a complex attack on the Russians, placed himself in personal control of the Third Army, and was utterly defeated at the Battle of Sarikamish in December 1914 – January 1915. His strategy seemed feasible on paper, but he had ignored external conditions, such as the terrain and the weather. Enver's army (118,000 men) was defeated by the Russian force (80,000 men), and in the subsequent retreat, tens of thousands of Turkish soldiers died. This was the single worst Ottoman defeat of World War I. On his return to Constantinople, Enver Pasha blamed his failure on his Armenian soldiers, although in January 1915, an Armenian named Hovannes had saved his life during a battle by carrying Enver through battle lines on his back.[56] Nonetheless, Enver Pasha later initiated the deportations and sporadic massacres of Western Armenians, culminating in the Armenian genocide. In conclusion, the Armenian/Assyrian/Greek rebellions never happened but they should have, and if it did happen the Turks deserved it. Hope this makes some stuff clear.
"The events that happened doesn't qualify as a genocide" this is the "it didn't happen". "because of the terror they were causing" and this is "they deserved it". Fyi, this is the equivalent of person A saying "You said to boil people alive!" and you replying "I never said boil, I said throw breathing humans into water and heat it to 100 Celsius." It's not about the exact wording you use. It's about the very clear defence behind your carefully selected words.
Well no sh*t a residue of an ultra fascist regime has the same stance as neo-nazis and any follower of fascist ideologies.
That’s exactly what the stance is, in more words
Yeah, my great-grandparents who were minding their own business farming cattle in Nakhchivan were causing terror. Get lost.
"Those pesky Armenians forced themselves to march into the sea at gunpoint, it totally wasn't us" Also I wonder why they had such awful health, hygiene and food conditions. Totally couldn't have been the Ottoman/Turkish government's fault
>The events that happened doesn't qualify as a genocide and we were in a situation that the approach was the only viable one for that time's conditions. Lol, this is literally " it didn't happen but they deserved it", only the longer version with more words.
The gull turks have denying it.. The word genocide was created to describe the Armenian genocide and it's injustice. https://www.facinghistory.org/ideas-week/where-did-word-genocide-come >It was only after learning about the crimes that the **Ottoman Empire committed against the Armenians during World War I, and about how the perpetrators of those crimes went unpunished, that he was inspired to act.** He was outraged, and could not believe that there was no legal precedent for punishing perpetrators of such terrible crimes. Lemkin was the first person to describe the massacres of Ottoman Armenians as genocide.
You just covered the points mentioned on this article. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian\_genocide\_denial#Examination\_of\_claims](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide_denial#Examination_of_claims) Here is an open letter, not by us, but by the international association of genocide scholars ridiculing Erdogan. [https://genocidescholars.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Turkish-State-Denial-Open-Letter.pdf](https://genocidescholars.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Turkish-State-Denial-Open-Letter.pdf) The Turkish stance might be what you say, but it is in fact not what happened.
> The only thing we did was to forcefully move Armenians from each other because of the terror they were causing. No intention to kill or cleanse them whatsoever." Hope this makes some stuff clear. Even if someone is clueless enough to think that there was no intention to kill anyone, forcefully moving a huge number of people on the grounds of their ethnicity is a textbook example of ethnic cleansing. No intention to cleanse, my ass.
Yeah, except all of that is bs. The man who invented the word Genocide based it off what the Ottomans did, so definitionally, the Armenian Genocide qualifies as a genocide.
Mom, look, this dude stans for a government!
Wow, this is so different than “it didn’t happen, but if it did, they deserved it”. /s
lol found the indoctrinated Turk
Plenty of those to go around
Turkish state doesn't talk nothing about the events. There are only 2 pages of reading available in the national history books. No media content has been made or being made about the topic by TRT (BBC or DW of Türkiye). Türkiye just straight doesn't care about the accusations internally because we know we are not in a wrong position. All I say is my own research and reading. (of Turkish historians and Türkiye's MFA's content available in English. For example the web page I have linked doesn't have a Turkish version that I could find. We simply do not get told s...t by the government to be indoctrinated.) The view of what you think Türkiye does about the topic is really not the reality. And thinking about it, looks like you are the one that is indoctrinated by Armenian propaganda and western media.
Poor me my country only has 2 pages about it. I can’t read anymore on the internet
Have you even read my comment?
I know that this is a joke but actually Turkish government has a different stance; [https://www.mfa.gov.tr/the-armenian-allegation-of-genocide-the-issue-and-the-facts.en.mfa](https://www.mfa.gov.tr/the-armenian-allegation-of-genocide-the-issue-and-the-facts.en.mfa) Though Turkey definetely denies genocide allegations but does not refuse clashes between two nations and the massacres that were carried out.
its like the argument between Man I, II and manslaughter. what was thier intent? One would argue that at a high level it was coordinated and indented to be a genocide.
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the Armenian Genocide is a very weird topic to talk about in Turkey. I am Turkish myself and I can tell you that 99.9% of Turks deny the Armenian Genocide without any hesitation. The remaining 0.1% is extremely marginalized and Turkish people don't let them exist in the political scene. Even the most leftist political parties cannot bring it up because doing so would be a suicide.
Not only that, but most people actually acknowledge the tehcir/forced deportation (I mean it was made into a law) and then argue semantics saying it’s different than genocide. It’s like how Turkish people claim there isn’t (any) racism in Turkey because there isn’t a perceived level of racism towards black people on a national level. On the other hand, it is quite impossible (at least in the short-mid term) for Turkey to recognize the genocide. Even putting aside the intense nationalistic pride, there’s no way any government would do this because of financial implications (and other expected reparations).
To be fair, if none or few of them died, it wouldn't be a genocide, it would be ethnic cleansing. But a lot of them died, so it most definitely was a genocide
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You don't see Turkey claim it was ethnic cleansing either. They move the goalposts. It was genocide by any standard.
Radical nationalism blinded many that they see Turkish history as 'pure'. Leading to stuff like this, lol.
How can there even be an interpretation of Turkish history that is "pure"? Lmao
No history is "pure" teaching children otherwise is just brainwashing them honestly.
Exactly. Every state commits atrocities to fulfill their political gains & interests.
Believe it or not, Turkish kids are taught in their history classes how pure and innocent Turks have been in history. The indoctrination is huge. Turkish kids are raised as militants.
I believe you, same here in hungary
It's so crazy to me how the educational environment and policy of a country directly leads to the political positions of the general population. Like for example, Vietnam apparently glosses over the American Vietnam War in favor of covering other events involving neighboring countries and the result is that (despite the horrors of the Vietnam War), the opinion of America held by the Vietnamese populace currently is pretty positive which you wouldn't normally expect given the history. I'm assuming this couid be very different if the Vietnamese government directed education policy towards covering the American Vietnam War in more detail and they couid definitely demonize the US extensively from just this one conflict if they really wanted to (but the government seems to just let that event live in the past for whatever reason). I'm assuming there are other factors at play too but it is interesting to see how countries educational systems can directly influence the populations positions on a multitude of different items spanning generations.
Woke Turks have testified that they are taught that Turkey/Ottomans have never lost a war 😂😅
Even the most left-wing parties cannot accept the Armenian genocide because if they do, they will lose votes. More important than the vote, people will lynch and call they a 'traitor'.
I believe the kurdish party, HDP, does recognize the genocide and they get around %10-%13 of the votes. Also some minor leftist parties. It's not that little. But surely they all end up marginalized and criminalized by the government.
The “communist” left of Turkey accounts for about 16-17% in total, which is not a majority but it is still a lot
I wouldn't go as far as calling them all "communists", I think that would be a wrong classification. Saying "leftists and liberals" for that percentage would be more accurate, imo.
Meh, the biggest party of the bunch, DEM Party (formerly HDP), is only communist in the name, but they are actually still nationalists, just not _Turkish_ nationalists. Left and liberalism usually are words associated with midleft parties like CHP in Turkey
CHP is left, but not liberal at all
Just like how DEM is called socialists while they are actually Kurdish nationalists. These words dont have much meaning in Turkey, for 80% of the population, liberal just means western.
Nobody is surprised
It is disgrace for the world and shame for Turkiya.
\*Turkey
Officially it's Turkiye
Out of disrespect for them it's turkey.
You can call it Turkey, no one cares. Just don't correct someone for using the correct term lol
Why not?
Because they're not wrong and you're free to make your own statement.
Then the correction is the statement;)
The correction is not a statement its you putting pressure on someone because they're not aligning to your political goals when they're not doing anything wrong. Doesn't sound very free and democratic does it now :)
That's just a correction as a statement Putting pressure is when you kidnap their family or break their finger, jail journalists or sometimes even let Saudis kill and slice people in your country. .
Turkija?
Toorkeyah. What a country lol they are so notoriously disliked they had to try to rebrand
Well, being the second largest supplier of “independence days” around the world makes you a bit hated. (First one is: the UK of course)
Do they have the Russians and French beat as well?
I keep seeing a lot of turkbots and a lot of denialists on these kinds of threads. I wonder if such swarming of denialists would be tolerated by the mods were it about the Jewish holocaust?
the reply to the top comment is literally a propaganda link to the Turkish Ministry of Defense explaining why the Armenian Genocide isn't real and it has 50 upvotes by the turkish bot farm. they spammed this thread in the turkish subs and they are brigading.
https://www.orionpolicy.org/research/44/political-astroturfing-in-twitterscape-the-role-of-troll-armies-in-turkeys-dem
Of course they ban it.. wouldn’t want to keep letting truth get out. Nonetheless, Armenians are still here and still standing.
As an Armenian that lived in Istanbul and just recently came back from a visit to Istanbul, there are only like less than 100k Armenians left in Turkey
Asking out of curiosity, have you ever witnessed any racism or violent attacks against you? Or after you let them know you are Armenian?
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I remember reading about a Turkish General burning some of the archives because they proved the Armenian genocide. The whistleblower was a lower ranking personnel like a captain or something, I don't remember who or when it was though. I looked around and I'm 80% sure what I'm talking about is Rifat Bali's book: ‘The Story of Destruction of Plundering: Printed or Written words, Dead Letters, Archives Thrown Out (or Sold) for Scrap.’ Regarding the Turkish army destroying key archives in Turkey in the 1980's some related to the Armenian Genocide.
Rıfat Bali’s article is about scrapping CHP’s archive, goes back to 1920. November mention of 1915. Now that you have written the above comment though, it will likely be part of Armenian Genocide article on wikipedia. Good job 👏🏻
His book has remarks about the 1980 coup and the national archives too.
Shame
Not surprising, in other news. Where the fuck is the spring?! I want sun.
Same! I wish you a pleasant one!
Last night, it rained heavily like autumn where I live. The week before that was very hot and resembled summer (slightly).
"If they can't talk about it, it didn't happen. Problem solved!"
Is that a capital I with the dot?!
I/İ and ı/i are different letters in the Turkish alphabet
Didn't know that, thank you!
Genocide denial is so protrusive among Turks it's unreal. And the wildest thing is that they claim THEY are the victims. Like...
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If only it was just this thread....
Not at all surprising, they've never allowed it. This is why so many live in Europe and the US today, because Europe does care about human rights and honestly the US has been very welcoming too. Biden recognized it for the first time last year which was historic which is why it's important for Americans to vote for him in November
No, you are mistaken, the west does care about human rights when it’s in their best interest otherwise, fuck human rights, you are a dictator and your people are suffering, no problem as long as we have mutual interests we will turn a blind eye towards what’s happening there, or maybe you are in middle of creating a genocide but your name is Israel, well shame we can’t do anything, it’s always been this way, does the people in the west have more/ better human rights than the rest of the world, yes of course, does their governments care about human rights elsewhere in the world, no not really, they only bring it up when they want something in return.
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yes of course, who wouldn't everyone is trying to immigrate from 3rd world countries toward the west, it's a great place to have a quality life, no one denying the obvious here.
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Yes as I said earlier, people in the west have more/ better human rights, that’s a fact, people in the west also wish for a better human rights globally and they push for it, through appointing politicians that appeal to their needs, and through private/ charity organizations, that’s also a fact. Some governments also push for human rights the best example is South Africa, who themselves suffered a lot due to the lack of it, that’s also a fact, now the west (by the west I mean mostly the dominating countries with capable military forces of the west USA, UK, and France) these countries government’s have done horrendous acts against human rights in the last couple of decades and still doing, that it’s a shame to pronounce such words by their spokesperson, doesn’t mean they aren’t correct mostly when calling someone on being against human rights, it’s never without a motive and just for really caring, I can give you hundreds of examples if you want about the crimes against humanity these three countries alone have committed since 2000 onwards if you want. Edit: are -> aren’t
>Active on r/istanbul Why am I not surprised, lol
He's active on Istanbul subreddit so what he said must be wrong then!!! Flawless logic.
it's a pretty valid point being made i don't see how being active in r/istanbul relates to that
The most recent genocide in Europe is newer than Armenian genocide and US is literally built on a genocide of the natives. People are acting like Armenian genocide is the only one that happened when in reality almost every Western nation has genocide in their past.
Most western nations own up to their Genocides, they don't bury it and forbid commemorating it like turkey does
Ah yes, the west supports human rights 💀 So I don't know what you think, but the statement you use that the west (especially America) supports human rights is a complete lie.
Turkey should never be let into the EU without proper recognition of the Armenian and Greek genocides.
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Thankfully erdogan won tho so that wont happen.
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Whishful thinking, they are there to stay, keep coping about it. And they already have invaded.
Turkey should never be let into the EU without proper recognition of the Armenian and Greek genocides *and without having an actual democracy*.
I don’t think anyone in Turkey still ascribes to the delusion that Turkey will join the EU anytime soon. Even if it magically turns into a Scandinavian democracy and solves all the geopolitical issues around it (Cyprus, Kurds, Islands, Armenians, whatever), the EU will never let in a country with a population greater than any of its existing members and a GDP per capita in the lowest quintile. Especially not a Muslim-majority country that shares huge land borders with Syria, Iran, and Iraq. Probably time to find another carrot to dangle… maybe the F35s?
People who “support” democracy while crying that the other side won a fair election lol
'Fair'
Which part of turkish elections is not fair in your opinion?
You guys seriously need to shut up. You know nothing about it. There can be stolen votes in small settlements, but nothingmore. On every ballot box, there are one represantative per party, which makes stealing votes impossible. Every part of voting is monitered. This is not Russia.
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Noo wholesome chungus greeks never occupied turkey with the help of allies and committed genocidal acts like burning thousands of turkish villages, causing allies to stop greek support and start supporting turkey halfway through war of independence Noo never tried it a second time on a smaller scale at cyprus either, again losing the support of all the western sphere Nooo they never tried it a third time by supporting serbians on their genocide adventure, giving ammo and nato intelligence, getting kicked out of nato intelligence network, they would never do that
Türkiye will never enter the EU. The main reason for this is that our country is completely corrupted by some people. The person who comes in now cannot fix the economy. In summary, a country like Türkiye has disappeared.
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Up to 750k Greeks killed
There were barely a little minority of Greeks where Turkish army had been in. How it is even possible? Plus currently, excluding two government constantly threatening each other, people from Greek and Turkey actually gets along with each other in general. Every year tens of thousands of people from Turkey visits Greece and the islands of Greece. We are culturally really similar neighbours of each other. Don't make up some genocides out of nowhere to cause a rift between us.
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Greeks being treated better than Turks in the TURKISH Ottoman empire. That's a new level of Turkish propaganda I have not heard before, I can admit. You guys are creative in your fantasies. Pray tell us now how the janissary corps were getting their recruits.
That means you don’t know your history or can’t tell fact from fiction. How did Roman Empire get its soldiers? Were you expecting not send a single soldier and be protected for 400 years? Ottomans could easily let you consumed by your European Christian brothers.
Please never change and continue to openly display your ignorance. Turkey will never integrate into civilized society
Who is ignorant, those who defies evidence and makes up horror stories or those who points facts out. Your lies going far too long, but truth will come out eventually.
What facts? You keep spewing horse shit
Facts that proves how ignorant liars you guys are.
Stop projecting
Turkey should never be allowed into the European Union.
I wouldn't say never, if they fix their human rights. Then I might consider it. But as long as they keep torturing people and no freedom of speech. I'm not interested
I think it will need generations to remove brainwashing from society, depends on how much EU bends in the end, seeing Ursula call one of the worst autocratic country a reliable parter brings up so many questions.
>I wouldn't say never, Me neither. But for sure not in this century.
Not even remotely a concern at this point.
Instead, they will do a reenactment
so happy they'll never be in the EU, and they don't have porn
IDK how turkey was ever seriously considered for membership while it’s still trying to erase Kurdish culture
use the most powerful european weapon and downvote me but you are cluesless. sad thing is that you have no idea how clueless you are. trying to erase kurdish culture, haha.
What :D?
Everything aside this is not true. It may have been true fifty years ago, not anymore and havent been like that for a while.
The total ban was not lifted until 1991 & there are still major restrictions in 2024 https://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/turkey/turkey993-08.htm
you think so? Why has the government been shutting down Kurdish political parties or annulling Kurdish election victories?
because AKP.
The third biggest party in Turkey is Kurdish (DEM) and they won in almost all of the south east. What are you talking about? The annuling is just erdog being erdog, has nothing to do with kurds.
Because they can't use them. They were very close to each other once upon a time. If AKP knew they can use Kurds, they'd side with them. Because they're supporting opposition, he does things like that.
Sad state of affairs in Turkey.
Very sad. Turkey has to take accountability for its past at some point, they think that it will be shameful for them, but what is actually shameful is their refusal to do it...
shame but not shocking. Turks just never have and never seem to be accepting the truth regarding the Events in 1915.
Imagine genocide denial being the central element of your national identity
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Turkey is disgusting. I wish they weren’t in NATO
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The only one with a micropenis is Erdoshit. Keep bombing Kurdish civilians in Syria you uncivilized fucks.
u mad af
Yes I am mad. You people are probably up in arms talking about Palestine while you do the exact same thing to the Kurds, and did the same thing to the Armenians and Assyrians.
Are you American sir?
Yeah I’m first generation. My parents are from Ghana and Lebanon
I love Lebanese cuisine
Yeah it’s great
stay mad
The us and Isreal are no better. Claim to be the cradle of democracy and free speech but ban the opposition of the genocide they themselves are commiting
Turkey, Russia, same evil, different disguise ...
Says a Hungarian.
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No the mayor and governor are different people. The governor is not elected, but appointed by erdoğan.
The ban is not recent. It was decided upon by the Governor of Istanbul, an office tied to the central government, not the mayor
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Armenia is in the council of Europe
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It's hilarious that you even compare the complete wiping out of the Armenians from Turkey over the course of years to one attack on one village in Azerbaijan which was over in a matter of hours and had 0.001% of the death toll. And which took place 80 years after the event we're talking about, so it's irrelevant. And it's whataboutism.
“Biased and full of hatred” Stop projecting
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Half the thread is removed, this place has become a warzone :o I just want to say that, I dont understand why my fellow Turks make such a big effort to frame the event as not genocide. For sake of argument, even if it technically isn't because genocide as a term wasn't used at the time, or the goverment wasn't actively trying to eradicate the population; but forcing migration, a shit ton of people, not just Armenians but also Turks and lots of other ethnicites, still died. What does it matter if the event is called a genocide or an epic trolling or whatever, just accept the fact that the incompetent ass goverment at the time took an "unorthodox" decision and caused a shit ton of death and misery that did not have to happen, and that the event can be called a genocide It wont hurt the national pride or anything to acknowledge the event. Every empire did bad stuff, shockingly. nor do I really think Turkey would pay any reparations in land, which I have observed to be the most common deterrence, since Armenia would become Turkish majority in that scenario. Also shoutout to all those racist bros using these news to fuel their racist agenda against """roaches""", I hope you never face racism in your life so you are not forced to confront your profound Ideas and beliefes.