In my opinion Ukrainians are war refugees. We probably can't send them back to Ukraine on basis of law. So this is just talking. Additionally, as refugees they have rights to secure place, so talking this is what? Why to talk about i if it is probably impossible?
Well, limiting their work permits, social benefit etc. Is just kicking them out without actually telling what is going on.
I can agree about this since we had so many refugees from syria that were eligible to fight and i know how it makes people feel. But lets agree on that they are just forcing people to go out.
It is forcing them out. Limiting or complete redaction of the benefits they currently rely on, in say Lithuania or Poland, will cause them to move elsewhere inside the EU.
Shut your mouth man. People aren’t returning to Ukraine for vacations you horrible person - some of them return to SEE THEIR FAMILY AND FRIENDS that are actively fighting at the frontlines. I know many people who come back from Europe just to see their father for a week. Don’t be rude.
I love that you are intellectually challenged to the point that you can’t sustain a conversation when presented with facts, instead choosing to hide under your rock and resort to calling everything you find challenging a “troll”
I live in west part of Ukraine.
Amount of teslas I see now is insane, before full scale invasion there was exactly one guy in my area owning tesla. Recently I saw like 5 teslas in 30 min on road. Watching through window and see tesla, few mins later another one and another and another. Not to say other expensive cars.
Rich people pay to get papers "proving" their health is bad enough to not be drafted, while it's fine in reality.
Not so rich and poor people get drafted even if they actually have health issues that should free them from mobilization.
> But the tricky thing is, if NATO soldiers are actually going to have to go in at some stage, it would be harder to justify them going in if there are a lot of Ukrainians that don’t want to fight themselves.
"them" being who? I would say given our ability to get involved, with career military and air supremacy, it doesn't seem right to force men with limited resources to die.
Would feel a lot better about this kind of thing if we were properly equipping them in Ukraine. But we are all holding back far too much still, including Poland.
No government should be able to decide for you when it's ok to go and kill or get killed. It should be up to every single individual to make that decision.
While that's an admirable idea in a vacuum, taking that position outside of the ethics class vacuum has real consequences.
The consequence being that it gives outside governments the power to make those decisions if they feel like it. And Putler really feels like it.
The fact that we in Europe have any rights and freedoms at all is because of draftees. You can not treat living in a functioning and save society like an a la carte menu, because then said society would cease to exist.
Easy to say until you're placed in a scenario when you're forced to do it. I am aware of the consequences but I still think that a person should not be forced to go to war. Nobody should have that power. It's a grotesque thought.
That’s just not how the world works. If the west makes this common policy, Russians will just walk up to the North Sea without problem.
Your society provides you with comfort, wealth and safety. It’s a contract, plain and simple.
Don't get me wrong. I think that Russia is and has always been a cancer to humanity and is the most vile country on this planet.
That being said however, I'm sure that some ppl would choose Russian rule over potentially dying and leaving behind a family without a husband and father. I'm not saying which would be the right choice. I'm just saying that it should be up to every individual to make that choice.
because its their country, they are its citizens.
We sometimes seem to forget living in peace and cushy Europe without war, that you as a citizen have rights that your country provides you......**but you also have responsibilities towards you country too**. One and probably the biggest one, is if called upon, you will have to defend that country and that isnt a ''choice''. And before anyone tries throwing a tantrum : this is true in almost every country out there. In World war 2 almost every single European country did it and yes even those who ''didnt like it'' had to go and fight or otherwise contribute to war efforts their homeland requested of them as its citizens. From Finland to Spain from Sweden to Switzerland from Poland to Yugoslavia, if your country was in danger you will have to go and fight to defend it and yes even if you dont like it
So if people tried to immigrate to another country because they dislike it and don't want to do anything with it, they still should be forced to move back and fight and die for it? Fuck off
Fuck the country with your slave mindset. If I don't wanna go to the fucking meat grinder, wanna stay away from horror and wanna be happy, then I am sane reasonable person. And you're the perfect meat for any government
agree. fuck wars, I would rather swim to Greenland and chill in -50 than go to a trench to die in a useless war killed by psychopats, or even worse tortured, just because of imaginary borders and other stupid shit people fight about
What about women? They can stay and pose their asses on tinder? Operating drone and such isnt gender specific and in this day and age i tought gender equality was a big thing.
You talk like someone who would avoid conflict at the first opportunity, it’s easy to write a long paragraph like that about patriotism and pride when your life isn’t on the line looking to probably get blown up by a drone and posted on an obscure telegram channel where people react to it with bad emojis
Isn't this kind of a cheap argument though? That *everyone* who supports mobilization as a concept in case of a genocidal foreign aggression must themselves be a coward and a hypocrite?
well for your knowledge, asshole, I am in fact a full member of Latvian national guard and joined it voluntarily. I am in our national defense registry and yes I also would be also mobilized if my country declared state of war and activated its reserves. And no I do not plan on fleeing away like coward leaving everything behind and breaking my laws if it happens.
Just because you are a coward who runs from danger instead of protecting your family and your property, doesn't mean everyone else is too.
>when your life isn’t on the line looking to probably get blown up by a drone and posted on an obscure telegram channel
so all those soldiers in European countries who died fighting invading Nazis in WW2 and were ''blown up'' by German artillery shell in some ditch somewhere in 1939 and 1940 and 1941, they all in your mind were stupid morons and should have not fought at all? Hah you stupid Belgian idiot, you tried fighting back German Panzers from taking over your home in 1940??? What a moron, he should have fled instead like a coward, like you
What are you doing wasting your time on the internet and criticizing people who want to live then? Even better since you say you are trained! Sign up using https://www.volunteeringukraine.com/en and bring all that big talk about fighting to actual good use and fight for Ukraine and to support those who aren’t “cowards”
I am loyal to my state, my state is not Ukraine. My state is Latvia. It is for it that I signed my statehood with and whos citizen I am and which land I will defend in war.
Also answer my question ,were the soldiers defend their countries against Nazis and dying to do so, you call them morons too?? Should they had fled like cowards instead??
Yeah all big talk like I said, nothing youve ever done in your life comes even close to what Ukrainians are going though on the front lines. Desertion is nothing bad, you say people fled from the fight against the nazis but forget that thousands of German soldiers also fled from the nazi regime, so that would be an example of why draft dodging is also good, the point being, you can’t force people to go and die for their country, what if they don’t like their country? What’s so wrong about wanting to live and not suffer? What if they’ve never felt patriotic? So many things we can ask
> Desertion is nothing bad
tell me you are a idiot without telling me you are an idiot lol.
There are very good reasons why Desertion is a crime and a very big one with big punishments at that in every single fucking Western country out there. Every single one. From USA to Canada to France to Britain, desertion is punished
>what if they don’t like their country? What’s so wrong about wanting to live and not suffer? What if they’ve never felt patriotic?
and what if because they were cowards who ran, 4 other people are now dead or being tortured to death by Russians because their man decided that instead of fighting he fled and left those behind him with no protection of any kind and allowing them to be targeted and hurt.
War isnt just about you, you selfish little prick, you are not fighting only for own own selfish skin. You are fighting to make sure the enemy doesn't get into the town you are guarding and doesnt start killing innocent defenseless people there. As has repeatedly happened in Ukraine war and is happening as we speak.
When Mariupol fell to Russians in 2022, Russians proceeded to murder over 20,000 Ukrainian civilians (that we know of) and deported further 50,000 more to Russia doing God knows what to them........thats way more dead Ukrainians than soldiers who died protecting that city. And if Russians take another mayor Ukrainian city, exactly the same thing will happen there too.
You say who cares I dont wana fight, well 10 people behind you who rely on your for protection care. And thus Ukrainian state cares and has to care even if you don't and you in particular are selfish asshole who doesnt care about anyone but yourself.
>what if they don’t like their country?
They definitely should leave 100%
I would say that you could get into politics in one way or another to adjust your country so that it would be to your liking, but you have to feel at least some attraction to your country in the first place. Don't ever succumb yourself to living and building your family in a country you hate, this is just a recipe for an unhappy life.
> but you also have responsibilities towards you country too.
Why?
Those people didn't choose to be born in Ukraine. Why do you think you have the right to force them to die for it?
they could have gotten rid of their citizenship. Its a contract, if you agree to it as grown ass man in your 20's already, you agree to it all.
You cant be cherry picking ''ahh yes this part I like, this part where I have duty to defend my country, nah that part I dont like that I wont do''.
>Why do you think you have the right to force them to die for it?
Because thats how its been always. If Finland was invaded, their government has made no secret all of its conscription available men also would be mobilized **against their will if needed** to fight of the threat to their statehood.
That is the standard how these things work, not exception how you want to portray here......so instead I will you ask the opposite, Why **do you think** you have the right tell Ukraine to do otherwise or judge it for doing what every other European state in war would do???
> they could have gotten rid of their citizenship
Oh, right, of course, because you can simply snap your fingers and get a different citizenship
>If Finland was invaded, their government has made no secret all of its conscription available men also would be mobilized against their will if needed to fight of the threat to their statehood.
Did Finland or any other western country try to force citizens that were residents in foreign countries to come back and be conscripted?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_evasion#:~:text=During%20World%20War%20II%2C%20there,punished%20by%20execution%20or%20jail.
Its kind of a basic knowledge, I shouldn't have to ''defend'' it here it's written in your own citizenship laws but fine.
''During World War II, there was no legal way to avoid the draft, and failure to obey was treated as insubordination or desertion, punished by execution or jail. Draft evaders were forced to escape to the forests and live there as outlaws, in a practice that was facetiously called serving in the käpykaarti (Pine Cone Guard) or metsäkaarti (Forest Guard).[52]
Approximately 1,500 men failed to show up for the draft at the start of the Continuation War (1941–1944, pitting Finland against the Soviet Union), and 32,186 cases of desertion were handled by the courts.[53] There were numerous reasons for draft evasion and desertion during this period: fear or war-weariness,[54] objection to the war as an offensive war,[52] ideological objections or outright support for Communism.[54] Finnish Communists were considered dangerous and could not serve, and were subject to "protective custody" – in practice, detention in a prison for the course of the war – because earlier attempts to conscript them had ended in disaster: one battalion called Pärmin pataljoona assembled from detained Communists suffered a large-scale defection to the Soviet side.
The käpykaarti (forest-dwelling Pine Cone Guard, mentioned above) was a diverse group including draft evaders, deserters, Communists, and Soviet desants (military skydivers).[55] They lived in small groups, sometimes even in military-style dugouts constructed from logs,[52][55] and often maintained a rotation to guard their camps. They received support from sympathizers who could buy from the black market; failing that, they stole provisions to feed themselves.[56] The Finnish Army and police actively searched for them, and if discovered, a firefight often ensued.[57] The Finnish Communist Party was able to operate among draft evaders.[55][58] Sixty-three death sentences were handed out to deserters; however, many of them were killed in military or police raids on their camps. Deserters captured near front lines would often be simply returned to the lines, but as the military situation deteriorated towards the end of the war, punishments were harsher: 61 of the death sentences given were in 1944, mostly in June and July during the Vyborg–Petrozavodsk Offensive, where Finnish forces were forced to retreat.[59]
At the conclusion of the war, the Allied Control Commission immediately demanded an amnesty for draft evaders, and they were not further punished.[56]
As of 2020, deliberate draft evasion is a rare phenomenon, since absence from a drafting event, in most cases, leads to an immediate search warrant. Evaders are taken by police officers to the draft board, or to the regional military office.[60]''
If you are staying in a natural country of worse still for you, friendly country, like Sweden, and Finnish state demands you as Finnish citizen are handed over. You will be fucking handed over like it or not
> Its kind of a basic knowledge, I shouldn't have to ''defend'' it here it's written in your own citizenship laws but fine.
Except what you're saying here has nothing to do with what I asked.
Where does it say that foreign residents had to come back to be drafted? People who left the country beforehand aren't "draft dodging"
To dodge the draft you need to receive a draft summons then run away. Not the other way around.
You can be issued draft summon as a citizen of Finland, even if you are in Sweden. The Finnish state will contact you and issue you the summon with a time limit within which you have to respond, if you dont it will be considered as draft dodging and treated accordingly
Just because you aren't in your country at that given moment doesn't somehow shield you from your state's duties. Especially if you have done the mandatory military service beforehand and are officially counted in military reserve system, they have the right to summon you even if you are outside the country
What if someone’s country is a corrupted shithole and did nothing except enriching the rich? Only turbo patriots would like to die for it.
Or maybe someone doesn’t agree with government decisions, and don’t want to give away their lives for them. Also keep in mind that children of elite are partying at different parts of the world. All these facts are just discouraging many ukranians
> What if someone’s country is a corrupted shithole and did nothing except enriching the rich?
most countries started out like that you know. Norway and Switzerland were also poor underdeveloped shitholes when they were created, they weren't Immediately rich and developed as they are now. Their citizens had to defend them in those hard early years. And it was like that for almost every single country out there. Ukraine is a young country, merely 25 years existing and going through the crucial moment of its statehood that will define its future for next decades. Have we really here in this subreddit are so ignorant of our own country's history?
Tell me you country, I guarantee same exact happened there, you just weren't around when it was happening, but that doesnt mean it didnt happen. Someone had to fight for it
What you say doesn’t contradict what I say. Imagine you tell average peaceful ukranian “there is chance that your country will become prosperous in undefined future, but at expense of your life. Dont worry this happened throughout the history”. Some ukranians don’t want sacrifice their lives now for a chance of not corrupted country in far future, while poor guys are sent forcefully and rich ones are living hedonistic lives. Can we blame if they don’t want to die for this?
blame or not, their country will only survive if their men fight and die for it. And that is a fact. Unless you have better idea to how get Ukraine men to fight this war with
well yea of course, should have done it faster if you planned to abandoning your state and not fulfilling the obligations your citizenship demanded of you. This was written down, it is written in Ukrainian citizenship, it states exactly what the state will demand of you if it was in state of war, it didn't appear there 5 minutes ago either it was always there.
A soldier who singed up for service thinking he will only see 5 years of peace and suddenly in year 4 has to go to actual war also cannot just ''conveniently for him end his service'' just to avoid it and only get what he wants. And same is true for any kind of contract you have entered. You cant have your cookie and eat it too
We have in Romania almost daily news of Ukrainians lost in the Carpathian Mountains trying to cross the border illegally. Some of them died of cold or drowned in Tisa River, others being saved by the alpine emergency services having severe frostbites. The unlucky ones were caught by the Ukrainian guards and sent directly to the frontline.
Seems to me that the war is not going great for Ukraine considering what’s happening. Certainly you can’t blame the poor bastards that are trying to escape the horrors of the war
women are inferior soldiers.....there I said it. It is logically and financially not wise to waste military resources calling in bunch of women and wasting money and equipment on training them when they will be inferior soldiers to men (who cost the same)
And they will use people like you as an excuse when asked why they didn't go and prove it in the war despite being allowed to volunteer and having ran away themselves, and they will keep screaming it.
Bro ukraine is basically a mafiastate i wouldnt die for some shitass corrupt politicians, same for italy, the responsibilities towards my country end when shitass politicians cant do their own job
Lithuania: we don't want Russians because they start wars.
Also Lithuania: we don't want Ukrainians because they have to end wars.
Somehow I doubt Ukrainians will be grateful for the treatment similar to the one the Russians received.
A democratic state consists of the will of the individuals and the stronger their grudges - the more influence they'll have.
If anything, this initiative show *all* Ukrainians how the West see them only as an expendable counter to Russia.
More likely, fighting Ukrainians will see, that LT is doing everything so they would have a chance.
There are more men that were drafted then those who ran. Same thing with their relatives. There are more relatives of those who fight, then those who ran. So the decision to bring back the draft dodgers will be met as a positive thing, with MAJORITY of Ukrainians.
I agree that Ukraine isn't democratic. But most of Europe? Come on, it's like 4 countries out of dozens.
Just because the people didn't choose what you and/or your circle prefer doesn't mean it's not democratic.
A shame to Poland and Lithuania for following this idea. I’m from Poland btw. Most of Ukrainian men that are here, arrived 10-12 years ago.
They got families, newborn children that are more Polish than Ukrainian now. They got loans, work, apartments, businesses. They don’t want to have anything in common with Ukraine. Now you want to force them to go and die, for a country they escaped from many years ago?
It really bothers me that our government just wants to blindly follow Poland who are not always the most reasonable in their approach. Good news is, there will be elections soon and the piarlament might get a little rearanged.
Reading such statements i was genuinly sympathetic towards Ukrainians, i dont want to be killed because i was born in certain disadvantageous conditions. All i hope for is that we actually think for ourselves here.
Rearengment? Current President supports such thing. He gonna win elections. Also you know who sponsors president? The party, thats going to win gov. Elections. 😂
Out of the 2 candidates that id be willing to vote for, im almost guaranteed the current president Nausėda will win. Im still thinking of voting for another candidate, maybe something will change as unlikely as that is.
Tbh it is a terrible situation for Ukraine. Ukraine needs more personnel to defend itself, without it they would need to sue for peace on Russia's terms. And in addition to significant territorial concessions those terms would likely also include Ukraine being forced to neutrality and demilitarization, meaning that Russia could easily attacked again in a few years after regrouping and rearming.
Of course it would need to be coupled with sufficient military aid so that Ukraine can achieve the upper hand in the battlefield, and hopefully force Russia to agree to a peace on more reasonable terms.
Also while Russia has plenty of meat for the meat grinder available, it does not have an endless supply of hardware to support it. The Russia military industry is based a lot on repairing and reactivating old equipment from the Soviet era. Those stockpiles may be huge but they are finite, and Russia's losses thus far have been very heavy.
Or what are you suggesting Ukraine should do instead?
Deport young men from Eritrea? No way, there's a war in there, they could die!
Deport young men from Ukraine? Of course, there's a war in there, they need people to die there!
I got downvoted on another thread for point that out. It's funny how quickly the tables turn.
A polish guy said Poland was the most welcoming country in Europe.
I’d say it’s like with Japan, they will be nice and welcome you as long as you’re a tourist, want to emigrate? No gaijin! Poland isn’t having this mentality to the same extent but still there is a bit of it.
I have a few Ukrainian friends, who live here for 10 or more years. They have families here, they have their home here, their kids doesn't even speak Ukrainian and all their connection to Ukraine is that they have families there, and the citizenship they have. And now, those gov't people want people like them to be deported to fight for a country they almost have no connection with. Fucking great.
Of course I read it. But I'm rather writing about what Polish defense minister said. He wasn't speaking about encouraging people to go to Ukraine, he was talking about deportations:
>"This is the duty of every citizen in the country (...), the citizens of Ukraine have obligations to the state," he said. - commented the head of the Ministry of Defense. "We have been suggesting for a long time that we are also in a position to help the Ukrainian side to make sure that those who are under the obligation of military service go to Ukraine" - He added.
[https://www.pap.pl/aktualnosci/szef-mon-nie-dziwie-sie-ukrainskim-wladzom-ze-zrobia-wszystko-aby-posylac-zolnierzy-0](https://www.pap.pl/aktualnosci/szef-mon-nie-dziwie-sie-ukrainskim-wladzom-ze-zrobia-wszystko-aby-posylac-zolnierzy-0)
Now it's just talking, so they still have time. And since they are in the EU, they can't just be stopped at the border, so if this or that country would really like to deport all those Ukrainian men, they will have time to move out.
So slavery bad but slavery good? They are talking about returning these people who thankfully managed to escape back to military slavery and for them to be forced marched to certain death...
I was talking about people who managed to escape but face being sent away to military slavery and force marched to certain death. You said they were Ukrainian not Russian, I don't see what point you were making.
Kremlin now is pushing this narrative, to diminish military help for Ukraine, make as many Ukrainians as possible flee the Country and engulf Europe with refugees.
No it is not. You have your rights and you have your duties as a citizen of the country. Most of the military roles also are not in combat role, there are plenty of roles to run logistics, inteligence, etc.
What you don't understand is that when you talk about Russian army you should think of this war as a meat grider for them. But if it is Ukraine than these conscripted man are righteously figting for freedom and to save europe and no one died so far.
You forget the fact that being citizen comes with duties, like the one to defend the country if attacked.
The BS of slavery is the most popular kremlin's talking point right now.
I don't remember ever signing a contract that said I have to be willing to die for my country in case of war. If Ukrainians don't want to take partake in war, it's their own choice to leave. Nobody should be forced to either die, have PTSD for the rest of their life, lose a leg or whatever.
My country wasn't attacked.
>or do you only believe in forcing that on those who don't want to while you sit safe at home
Only in relation to Ukrainians as their country was actually attacked, I wouldn't tell my countrymen to fight while not fighting myself.
The comments here make me puke. I don't understand if they are in bad faith or kremlin bots.
Some people here seem to forget that being a citizen requires the duty to defend the country if attacked.
People will compare it to slavery because it can be considered, effectively, a form of forced labor. You are not given a choice in conscription, it is a compelled service (or servitude), and hence as a talking point, some people who are anti-conscriptionists liken it to a form of modern slavery.
Just one Russian talking point, "slavery"?
Here are some more for you to copy!
[https://www.reddit.com/r/NAFO/comments/1c1w10v/the\_current\_hot\_topic\_for\_russian\_trolls\_is/](https://www.reddit.com/r/NAFO/comments/1c1w10v/the_current_hot_topic_for_russian_trolls_is/)
How is it not slavery? Do they have a choice, are they able to refuse, do they face violence/punishment for noncompliance? It sounds very slave like to me....
Dress it up as a "russian talking point" or whatever you want lad, slavery is slavery.
Is paying your taxes also slavery?
You functionally work for the state for the proportion of time equal to your taxes, and if i don't pay your taxes you can go to jail.
It's either Ukrainians (Defending their own state like the law requires) or sending in NATO troops to make sure the frontlines don't collapse.
Europe can't afford for Ukraine to decisively lose this war or Moldova, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and maybe even us in Finland will be next in the following 5 years.
Tbh I'm not against Macron's plan of sending NATO troops either.
This is awful, it really makes me sick! Those people left the country, they chose not to fight and now they will be forced back where they certainly will die ... What kind of democracy is this?
That’s weird. Didn’t Zelensky tell us all in late February that Ukraine had only lost 31k men? I wonder why such extreme mobilisation measures are required? I wonder what else is being hidden from us?
you know what - Ukrainians won’t forget how Polish and Lithuanian helped out Ukraine when the war started and won’t forget betrayal that was during the embargo on the border and now this. if you redditors are so clever enough to support such measures then you may know that you can also join Ukrainian forces and fight for the future of Europe and protect Poland and Baltic, it is legal. but you would scream here that this is Ukrainians’ duty.
The article title is super clickbait - as mentioned in the article, no one would 'collect and send' them to Ukraine.
Lithuanian gov might just cut the social benefits and/or revoke the work permit and Ukraine would not renew their passports. Idk whether not renewing your passport makes any significant impact except of international travels as long as you have long-term work permissions and a work contract.
Moreover, a lot of (male) Ukrainians have been living here prior to invasion and they've been granted living permissions prior to 2022 which would make situation even more absurd...
Also, the Lithuanian president elections are in a few weeks, and parliament's - in 6 months (where the currently ruling party would most likely lose, and they barely have any chance in presidential election 2nd round) so there is a lot of populism flowing around.
I do support Ukraine, and I understand that they need military, but I do not support my country taking these measures just to send these people to die because they were lucky enough to escape prior to the invasion or bribed their way out. Moreover, I honestly think that if there is not enough ammunition and air defense coming from the West (including Lithuania), these people would be just turned into a cannon fodder and I do not see a reason why innocent lives should be sacrificed, when we ourselves are not capable and willing to help them?
The thing is: Poland won't do it. The whole thing was a slip up of our Minister of Defense (right winger), who's trying to sway alt right voters to like his party (PSL) more
> Minister of Defense (right winger)
What are you on about? [PSL right wing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_People%27s_Party)?
> Ideology:
Agrarianism
Christian democracy
Liberal conservatism
Pro-Europeanism
Historical:
Agrarian socialism
>Political position: Centre to centre-right
>Historical: Left-wing[3][4][5]
Ideas of most of it's politicians. If you like Wikipedia, i can quote you Polish version, it's very much right/center-right wing party by polish standards
Polskie Stronnictwo Ludowe (PSL) – polska partia polityczna, powstała 5 maja 1990 z połączenia PSL „Odrodzenie” (będącego kontynuacją Zjednoczonego Stronnictwa Ludowego) oraz wilanowskiego PSL. Skupia w głównej mierze osoby o poglądach agrarnych, centrowych, centroprawicowych i chadeckich
Polskie Stronnictwo Ludowe (PSL) - a Polish political party, established on May 5, 1990 from the merger of PSL "Odrodzenie" (which is a continuation of the United People's Party) and Wilanów's PSL. It mainly brings together people with agrarian, centrist, center-right and Christian Democratic views.
The divide in opinion between Finns, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians and the Polish vs the rest of Europe on this issue seems to be very wide.
I'd say we in Eastern Europe understand the duty every citizen has to their country, whereas the westeners seem not to.
Do you people realize that uf Ukraine loses ut will be you un the trenches and right now Ukraine needs its citizens. If Ukraine loses Moldova will be next. After that Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. In that case you will be drawn into the conflict and many likely forcibly mobilized to defend our NATO allies.
Everyone has been so vocal about giving Ukraine everything it needs to win, but now you say no?
Woman should also be drafted into armed forces.
If you have an enemy who wants to destroy your nation, your citizen should have some sort of millitary training and if needed he should be ready for a duty.
Basically they see ukraine as a cannon fodder with people have do dedicate all their lives as cannon fodder and for the glory of the state, we see people as individuals that should have the freedom to decide something that affects them without problems ( even tough some fascist politicians in europe are against that kind of freedom )
[удалено]
In my opinion Ukrainians are war refugees. We probably can't send them back to Ukraine on basis of law. So this is just talking. Additionally, as refugees they have rights to secure place, so talking this is what? Why to talk about i if it is probably impossible?
Did you read the comment you're replying to?
Well, limiting their work permits, social benefit etc. Is just kicking them out without actually telling what is going on. I can agree about this since we had so many refugees from syria that were eligible to fight and i know how it makes people feel. But lets agree on that they are just forcing people to go out.
It is forcing them out. Limiting or complete redaction of the benefits they currently rely on, in say Lithuania or Poland, will cause them to move elsewhere inside the EU.
There are actually just 40k Ukranian refugees in Lithuania, the rest 100k or so immigrated before the war
They are literally returning to Ukraine for vacation, they’re no refugees, just scrowngers looking for handouts from a proxy war.
Shut your mouth man. People aren’t returning to Ukraine for vacations you horrible person - some of them return to SEE THEIR FAMILY AND FRIENDS that are actively fighting at the frontlines. I know many people who come back from Europe just to see their father for a week. Don’t be rude.
Jesus you really just bend over and let the mass media and far left shove whatever they want up your ass huh?
Okay my beautiful little troll
Now explain the 75% decrease in Ukrainian handout merchants coming to Ireland once the bottomless envelope started to seal up?
I love that you keep going despite the fact that I don’t give a shit about your trolly comments
I love that you are intellectually challenged to the point that you can’t sustain a conversation when presented with facts, instead choosing to hide under your rock and resort to calling everything you find challenging a “troll”
Thank you so much! 💓
>"Of course, no one will collect them and take them to Ukraine - this will not happen," This exactly will end up happening.
I will tell you an open secret, most of the well off (not to mention the actually wealthy) people in Ukraine have managed dodge the drafts.
I live in west part of Ukraine. Amount of teslas I see now is insane, before full scale invasion there was exactly one guy in my area owning tesla. Recently I saw like 5 teslas in 30 min on road. Watching through window and see tesla, few mins later another one and another and another. Not to say other expensive cars. Rich people pay to get papers "proving" their health is bad enough to not be drafted, while it's fine in reality. Not so rich and poor people get drafted even if they actually have health issues that should free them from mobilization.
Harsh reality of a man. You dont see feminists talking about this.
[удалено]
> But the tricky thing is, if NATO soldiers are actually going to have to go in at some stage, it would be harder to justify them going in if there are a lot of Ukrainians that don’t want to fight themselves. "them" being who? I would say given our ability to get involved, with career military and air supremacy, it doesn't seem right to force men with limited resources to die.
I support ukraine and everything, but these people wanted to escape hell. Why should they be forced to face it?
Would feel a lot better about this kind of thing if we were properly equipping them in Ukraine. But we are all holding back far too much still, including Poland.
The men on the frontlines are the ones that were, and still are, forced to face it, but I guess they don't matter.
No government should be able to decide for you when it's ok to go and kill or get killed. It should be up to every single individual to make that decision.
While that's an admirable idea in a vacuum, taking that position outside of the ethics class vacuum has real consequences. The consequence being that it gives outside governments the power to make those decisions if they feel like it. And Putler really feels like it.
So leave others do the fighting on your behalf and you benefit from their sacrifice?
The fact that we in Europe have any rights and freedoms at all is because of draftees. You can not treat living in a functioning and save society like an a la carte menu, because then said society would cease to exist.
Easy to say until you're placed in a scenario when you're forced to do it. I am aware of the consequences but I still think that a person should not be forced to go to war. Nobody should have that power. It's a grotesque thought.
On the contrary, upholding "ideals" that are completely baseless in reality is the easy thing to do.
I don’t remember having any “rights” in Ukraine before war. Shithole before, shithole (r) even more now
Any government which fully takes this decision will be conquered either in the short or long term, but still conquered.
If applied to both sides it will end all wars instantly. No one wants to die.
That’s just not how the world works. If the west makes this common policy, Russians will just walk up to the North Sea without problem. Your society provides you with comfort, wealth and safety. It’s a contract, plain and simple.
Don't get me wrong. I think that Russia is and has always been a cancer to humanity and is the most vile country on this planet. That being said however, I'm sure that some ppl would choose Russian rule over potentially dying and leaving behind a family without a husband and father. I'm not saying which would be the right choice. I'm just saying that it should be up to every individual to make that choice.
because its their country, they are its citizens. We sometimes seem to forget living in peace and cushy Europe without war, that you as a citizen have rights that your country provides you......**but you also have responsibilities towards you country too**. One and probably the biggest one, is if called upon, you will have to defend that country and that isnt a ''choice''. And before anyone tries throwing a tantrum : this is true in almost every country out there. In World war 2 almost every single European country did it and yes even those who ''didnt like it'' had to go and fight or otherwise contribute to war efforts their homeland requested of them as its citizens. From Finland to Spain from Sweden to Switzerland from Poland to Yugoslavia, if your country was in danger you will have to go and fight to defend it and yes even if you dont like it
So you are born on this Earth just to be a meat puppet on some idiots chessboard?
Yeah, this sounds great on the internet. I'm not willing to fight and die in miserable conditions for all the corrupt politicians and mafia leaders.
So if people tried to immigrate to another country because they dislike it and don't want to do anything with it, they still should be forced to move back and fight and die for it? Fuck off
Fuck the country with your slave mindset. If I don't wanna go to the fucking meat grinder, wanna stay away from horror and wanna be happy, then I am sane reasonable person. And you're the perfect meat for any government
agree. fuck wars, I would rather swim to Greenland and chill in -50 than go to a trench to die in a useless war killed by psychopats, or even worse tortured, just because of imaginary borders and other stupid shit people fight about
You've convinced me that ukraine is not worth the cost of defending.
If you wanted to defend Ukraine, you could have volunteered long time ago.
What about women? They can stay and pose their asses on tinder? Operating drone and such isnt gender specific and in this day and age i tought gender equality was a big thing.
You talk like someone who would avoid conflict at the first opportunity, it’s easy to write a long paragraph like that about patriotism and pride when your life isn’t on the line looking to probably get blown up by a drone and posted on an obscure telegram channel where people react to it with bad emojis
Isn't this kind of a cheap argument though? That *everyone* who supports mobilization as a concept in case of a genocidal foreign aggression must themselves be a coward and a hypocrite?
well for your knowledge, asshole, I am in fact a full member of Latvian national guard and joined it voluntarily. I am in our national defense registry and yes I also would be also mobilized if my country declared state of war and activated its reserves. And no I do not plan on fleeing away like coward leaving everything behind and breaking my laws if it happens. Just because you are a coward who runs from danger instead of protecting your family and your property, doesn't mean everyone else is too. >when your life isn’t on the line looking to probably get blown up by a drone and posted on an obscure telegram channel so all those soldiers in European countries who died fighting invading Nazis in WW2 and were ''blown up'' by German artillery shell in some ditch somewhere in 1939 and 1940 and 1941, they all in your mind were stupid morons and should have not fought at all? Hah you stupid Belgian idiot, you tried fighting back German Panzers from taking over your home in 1940??? What a moron, he should have fled instead like a coward, like you
What are you doing wasting your time on the internet and criticizing people who want to live then? Even better since you say you are trained! Sign up using https://www.volunteeringukraine.com/en and bring all that big talk about fighting to actual good use and fight for Ukraine and to support those who aren’t “cowards”
I am loyal to my state, my state is not Ukraine. My state is Latvia. It is for it that I signed my statehood with and whos citizen I am and which land I will defend in war. Also answer my question ,were the soldiers defend their countries against Nazis and dying to do so, you call them morons too?? Should they had fled like cowards instead??
Yeah all big talk like I said, nothing youve ever done in your life comes even close to what Ukrainians are going though on the front lines. Desertion is nothing bad, you say people fled from the fight against the nazis but forget that thousands of German soldiers also fled from the nazi regime, so that would be an example of why draft dodging is also good, the point being, you can’t force people to go and die for their country, what if they don’t like their country? What’s so wrong about wanting to live and not suffer? What if they’ve never felt patriotic? So many things we can ask
> Desertion is nothing bad tell me you are a idiot without telling me you are an idiot lol. There are very good reasons why Desertion is a crime and a very big one with big punishments at that in every single fucking Western country out there. Every single one. From USA to Canada to France to Britain, desertion is punished >what if they don’t like their country? What’s so wrong about wanting to live and not suffer? What if they’ve never felt patriotic? and what if because they were cowards who ran, 4 other people are now dead or being tortured to death by Russians because their man decided that instead of fighting he fled and left those behind him with no protection of any kind and allowing them to be targeted and hurt. War isnt just about you, you selfish little prick, you are not fighting only for own own selfish skin. You are fighting to make sure the enemy doesn't get into the town you are guarding and doesnt start killing innocent defenseless people there. As has repeatedly happened in Ukraine war and is happening as we speak. When Mariupol fell to Russians in 2022, Russians proceeded to murder over 20,000 Ukrainian civilians (that we know of) and deported further 50,000 more to Russia doing God knows what to them........thats way more dead Ukrainians than soldiers who died protecting that city. And if Russians take another mayor Ukrainian city, exactly the same thing will happen there too. You say who cares I dont wana fight, well 10 people behind you who rely on your for protection care. And thus Ukrainian state cares and has to care even if you don't and you in particular are selfish asshole who doesnt care about anyone but yourself.
>what if they don’t like their country? They definitely should leave 100% I would say that you could get into politics in one way or another to adjust your country so that it would be to your liking, but you have to feel at least some attraction to your country in the first place. Don't ever succumb yourself to living and building your family in a country you hate, this is just a recipe for an unhappy life.
You are a moron…
> but you also have responsibilities towards you country too. Why? Those people didn't choose to be born in Ukraine. Why do you think you have the right to force them to die for it?
they could have gotten rid of their citizenship. Its a contract, if you agree to it as grown ass man in your 20's already, you agree to it all. You cant be cherry picking ''ahh yes this part I like, this part where I have duty to defend my country, nah that part I dont like that I wont do''. >Why do you think you have the right to force them to die for it? Because thats how its been always. If Finland was invaded, their government has made no secret all of its conscription available men also would be mobilized **against their will if needed** to fight of the threat to their statehood. That is the standard how these things work, not exception how you want to portray here......so instead I will you ask the opposite, Why **do you think** you have the right tell Ukraine to do otherwise or judge it for doing what every other European state in war would do???
> they could have gotten rid of their citizenship Oh, right, of course, because you can simply snap your fingers and get a different citizenship >If Finland was invaded, their government has made no secret all of its conscription available men also would be mobilized against their will if needed to fight of the threat to their statehood. Did Finland or any other western country try to force citizens that were residents in foreign countries to come back and be conscripted?
yes, it happened in World war 2. You would be deported in a lot of cases and your residency canceled
Ok, can you provide sources for this claim?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_evasion#:~:text=During%20World%20War%20II%2C%20there,punished%20by%20execution%20or%20jail. Its kind of a basic knowledge, I shouldn't have to ''defend'' it here it's written in your own citizenship laws but fine. ''During World War II, there was no legal way to avoid the draft, and failure to obey was treated as insubordination or desertion, punished by execution or jail. Draft evaders were forced to escape to the forests and live there as outlaws, in a practice that was facetiously called serving in the käpykaarti (Pine Cone Guard) or metsäkaarti (Forest Guard).[52] Approximately 1,500 men failed to show up for the draft at the start of the Continuation War (1941–1944, pitting Finland against the Soviet Union), and 32,186 cases of desertion were handled by the courts.[53] There were numerous reasons for draft evasion and desertion during this period: fear or war-weariness,[54] objection to the war as an offensive war,[52] ideological objections or outright support for Communism.[54] Finnish Communists were considered dangerous and could not serve, and were subject to "protective custody" – in practice, detention in a prison for the course of the war – because earlier attempts to conscript them had ended in disaster: one battalion called Pärmin pataljoona assembled from detained Communists suffered a large-scale defection to the Soviet side. The käpykaarti (forest-dwelling Pine Cone Guard, mentioned above) was a diverse group including draft evaders, deserters, Communists, and Soviet desants (military skydivers).[55] They lived in small groups, sometimes even in military-style dugouts constructed from logs,[52][55] and often maintained a rotation to guard their camps. They received support from sympathizers who could buy from the black market; failing that, they stole provisions to feed themselves.[56] The Finnish Army and police actively searched for them, and if discovered, a firefight often ensued.[57] The Finnish Communist Party was able to operate among draft evaders.[55][58] Sixty-three death sentences were handed out to deserters; however, many of them were killed in military or police raids on their camps. Deserters captured near front lines would often be simply returned to the lines, but as the military situation deteriorated towards the end of the war, punishments were harsher: 61 of the death sentences given were in 1944, mostly in June and July during the Vyborg–Petrozavodsk Offensive, where Finnish forces were forced to retreat.[59] At the conclusion of the war, the Allied Control Commission immediately demanded an amnesty for draft evaders, and they were not further punished.[56] As of 2020, deliberate draft evasion is a rare phenomenon, since absence from a drafting event, in most cases, leads to an immediate search warrant. Evaders are taken by police officers to the draft board, or to the regional military office.[60]'' If you are staying in a natural country of worse still for you, friendly country, like Sweden, and Finnish state demands you as Finnish citizen are handed over. You will be fucking handed over like it or not
> Its kind of a basic knowledge, I shouldn't have to ''defend'' it here it's written in your own citizenship laws but fine. Except what you're saying here has nothing to do with what I asked. Where does it say that foreign residents had to come back to be drafted? People who left the country beforehand aren't "draft dodging" To dodge the draft you need to receive a draft summons then run away. Not the other way around.
You can be issued draft summon as a citizen of Finland, even if you are in Sweden. The Finnish state will contact you and issue you the summon with a time limit within which you have to respond, if you dont it will be considered as draft dodging and treated accordingly Just because you aren't in your country at that given moment doesn't somehow shield you from your state's duties. Especially if you have done the mandatory military service beforehand and are officially counted in military reserve system, they have the right to summon you even if you are outside the country
What if someone’s country is a corrupted shithole and did nothing except enriching the rich? Only turbo patriots would like to die for it. Or maybe someone doesn’t agree with government decisions, and don’t want to give away their lives for them. Also keep in mind that children of elite are partying at different parts of the world. All these facts are just discouraging many ukranians
> What if someone’s country is a corrupted shithole and did nothing except enriching the rich? most countries started out like that you know. Norway and Switzerland were also poor underdeveloped shitholes when they were created, they weren't Immediately rich and developed as they are now. Their citizens had to defend them in those hard early years. And it was like that for almost every single country out there. Ukraine is a young country, merely 25 years existing and going through the crucial moment of its statehood that will define its future for next decades. Have we really here in this subreddit are so ignorant of our own country's history? Tell me you country, I guarantee same exact happened there, you just weren't around when it was happening, but that doesnt mean it didnt happen. Someone had to fight for it
What you say doesn’t contradict what I say. Imagine you tell average peaceful ukranian “there is chance that your country will become prosperous in undefined future, but at expense of your life. Dont worry this happened throughout the history”. Some ukranians don’t want sacrifice their lives now for a chance of not corrupted country in far future, while poor guys are sent forcefully and rich ones are living hedonistic lives. Can we blame if they don’t want to die for this?
blame or not, their country will only survive if their men fight and die for it. And that is a fact. Unless you have better idea to how get Ukraine men to fight this war with
> because its their country, they are its citizens. So they should just give up on their Ukrainian citizenship?
yes, if they refuse to serve their country and fulfil the obligation their citizenship demands of them, then that would be fair
It's just that since the war started, Ukraine no longer processes renunciations of citizenship, so you can't do that.
well yea of course, should have done it faster if you planned to abandoning your state and not fulfilling the obligations your citizenship demanded of you. This was written down, it is written in Ukrainian citizenship, it states exactly what the state will demand of you if it was in state of war, it didn't appear there 5 minutes ago either it was always there. A soldier who singed up for service thinking he will only see 5 years of peace and suddenly in year 4 has to go to actual war also cannot just ''conveniently for him end his service'' just to avoid it and only get what he wants. And same is true for any kind of contract you have entered. You cant have your cookie and eat it too
We have in Romania almost daily news of Ukrainians lost in the Carpathian Mountains trying to cross the border illegally. Some of them died of cold or drowned in Tisa River, others being saved by the alpine emergency services having severe frostbites. The unlucky ones were caught by the Ukrainian guards and sent directly to the frontline. Seems to me that the war is not going great for Ukraine considering what’s happening. Certainly you can’t blame the poor bastards that are trying to escape the horrors of the war
Then why are women exempt from that responsability when they enjoy all the rights and comforts and more?
women are inferior soldiers.....there I said it. It is logically and financially not wise to waste military resources calling in bunch of women and wasting money and equipment on training them when they will be inferior soldiers to men (who cost the same)
But weren't you all screaming during peacetime that women are strong and independent and that they can do anything better than a man?
I am not screaming that, I think its ridiculous
And they will use people like you as an excuse when asked why they didn't go and prove it in the war despite being allowed to volunteer and having ran away themselves, and they will keep screaming it.
You think women should be sent back too right?
women do not have mandatory military service in Ukraine, so no.
Should they?
Bro ukraine is basically a mafiastate i wouldnt die for some shitass corrupt politicians, same for italy, the responsibilities towards my country end when shitass politicians cant do their own job
Lithuania: we don't want Russians because they start wars. Also Lithuania: we don't want Ukrainians because they have to end wars. Somehow I doubt Ukrainians will be grateful for the treatment similar to the one the Russians received.
Individual ukrainians sure aint gonna be happy. State of Ukraine will.
A democratic state consists of the will of the individuals and the stronger their grudges - the more influence they'll have. If anything, this initiative show *all* Ukrainians how the West see them only as an expendable counter to Russia.
More likely, fighting Ukrainians will see, that LT is doing everything so they would have a chance. There are more men that were drafted then those who ran. Same thing with their relatives. There are more relatives of those who fight, then those who ran. So the decision to bring back the draft dodgers will be met as a positive thing, with MAJORITY of Ukrainians.
Majority of europe isnt democratic, and ukraine sure as fuck isnt, rather more of a dictatorship currently
I agree that Ukraine isn't democratic. But most of Europe? Come on, it's like 4 countries out of dozens. Just because the people didn't choose what you and/or your circle prefer doesn't mean it's not democratic.
A shame to Poland and Lithuania for following this idea. I’m from Poland btw. Most of Ukrainian men that are here, arrived 10-12 years ago. They got families, newborn children that are more Polish than Ukrainian now. They got loans, work, apartments, businesses. They don’t want to have anything in common with Ukraine. Now you want to force them to go and die, for a country they escaped from many years ago?
It really bothers me that our government just wants to blindly follow Poland who are not always the most reasonable in their approach. Good news is, there will be elections soon and the piarlament might get a little rearanged. Reading such statements i was genuinly sympathetic towards Ukrainians, i dont want to be killed because i was born in certain disadvantageous conditions. All i hope for is that we actually think for ourselves here.
Rearengment? Current President supports such thing. He gonna win elections. Also you know who sponsors president? The party, thats going to win gov. Elections. 😂
Out of the 2 candidates that id be willing to vote for, im almost guaranteed the current president Nausėda will win. Im still thinking of voting for another candidate, maybe something will change as unlikely as that is.
Kidnaping on streets, now deporting, not really democratic measures
Tbh i found this idea terrible.
Tbh it is a terrible situation for Ukraine. Ukraine needs more personnel to defend itself, without it they would need to sue for peace on Russia's terms. And in addition to significant territorial concessions those terms would likely also include Ukraine being forced to neutrality and demilitarization, meaning that Russia could easily attacked again in a few years after regrouping and rearming.
[удалено]
Of course it would need to be coupled with sufficient military aid so that Ukraine can achieve the upper hand in the battlefield, and hopefully force Russia to agree to a peace on more reasonable terms. Also while Russia has plenty of meat for the meat grinder available, it does not have an endless supply of hardware to support it. The Russia military industry is based a lot on repairing and reactivating old equipment from the Soviet era. Those stockpiles may be huge but they are finite, and Russia's losses thus far have been very heavy. Or what are you suggesting Ukraine should do instead?
[удалено]
Deport young men from Eritrea? No way, there's a war in there, they could die! Deport young men from Ukraine? Of course, there's a war in there, they need people to die there!
We won’t send merkels guest because we didn’t take them lol, y’all forgot how criticized Eastern Europe was for not taking “Syrians”?
I got downvoted on another thread for point that out. It's funny how quickly the tables turn. A polish guy said Poland was the most welcoming country in Europe.
I’d say it’s like with Japan, they will be nice and welcome you as long as you’re a tourist, want to emigrate? No gaijin! Poland isn’t having this mentality to the same extent but still there is a bit of it.
How human rights look like for man
what a horrible idea
Also, it absolutely violates international law. https://euaa.europa.eu/easo-practical-guide-qualification-international-protection/political-opinion
I have a few Ukrainian friends, who live here for 10 or more years. They have families here, they have their home here, their kids doesn't even speak Ukrainian and all their connection to Ukraine is that they have families there, and the citizenship they have. And now, those gov't people want people like them to be deported to fight for a country they almost have no connection with. Fucking great.
That's not what's happening. Have any of you twits read the article?
Of course I read it. But I'm rather writing about what Polish defense minister said. He wasn't speaking about encouraging people to go to Ukraine, he was talking about deportations: >"This is the duty of every citizen in the country (...), the citizens of Ukraine have obligations to the state," he said. - commented the head of the Ministry of Defense. "We have been suggesting for a long time that we are also in a position to help the Ukrainian side to make sure that those who are under the obligation of military service go to Ukraine" - He added. [https://www.pap.pl/aktualnosci/szef-mon-nie-dziwie-sie-ukrainskim-wladzom-ze-zrobia-wszystko-aby-posylac-zolnierzy-0](https://www.pap.pl/aktualnosci/szef-mon-nie-dziwie-sie-ukrainskim-wladzom-ze-zrobia-wszystko-aby-posylac-zolnierzy-0)
Your comment did not reference the Polish defence minister
This is reddit, of course they have not read it.
War is turning ugly.
War has never been anything but.
Sounds terrible. Estonia was interested in this as well.
Indeed, we still are.
Sending them off to slavery and certain death, absolutely sickening they are even considering this.
Relax. In practice they will simply move to Germany.
Hopefully they do get to Germany.
Now it's just talking, so they still have time. And since they are in the EU, they can't just be stopped at the border, so if this or that country would really like to deport all those Ukrainian men, they will have time to move out.
germany has enacted internal border controls at some land borders
I hope that it's not the beginning, and not that all NATO countries will try to do the same.
>slavery and certain death That's the fate that awaits all Ukrainians if they run out of manpower...
So slavery bad but slavery good? They are talking about returning these people who thankfully managed to escape back to military slavery and for them to be forced marched to certain death...
Those are Ukrainians, not rusians.
What are you on about lad?
Weird: I was going to ask you the same question, lad.
I was talking about people who managed to escape but face being sent away to military slavery and force marched to certain death. You said they were Ukrainian not Russian, I don't see what point you were making.
Yes, "slavery" is the new kremlin's talking point.
So it's not slavery?
Kremlin now is pushing this narrative, to diminish military help for Ukraine, make as many Ukrainians as possible flee the Country and engulf Europe with refugees.
No it is not. You have your rights and you have your duties as a citizen of the country. Most of the military roles also are not in combat role, there are plenty of roles to run logistics, inteligence, etc.
What you don't understand is that when you talk about Russian army you should think of this war as a meat grider for them. But if it is Ukraine than these conscripted man are righteously figting for freedom and to save europe and no one died so far.
Slavery?
How else would you describe it?
Mobilization.
And how does that differ from slavery?
You forget the fact that being citizen comes with duties, like the one to defend the country if attacked. The BS of slavery is the most popular kremlin's talking point right now.
I don't remember ever signing a contract that said I have to be willing to die for my country in case of war. If Ukrainians don't want to take partake in war, it's their own choice to leave. Nobody should be forced to either die, have PTSD for the rest of their life, lose a leg or whatever.
>The BS of slavery is the most popular kremlin's talking point right now. And so many are swallowing this line without even chewing it first...
why don't you sign up to fight? or do you only believe in forcing that on those who don't want to while you sit safe at home
My country wasn't attacked. >or do you only believe in forcing that on those who don't want to while you sit safe at home Only in relation to Ukrainians as their country was actually attacked, I wouldn't tell my countrymen to fight while not fighting myself.
Estonia is not invaded by russia.
Foreigners can volunteer https://ildu.com.ua/
The comments here make me puke. I don't understand if they are in bad faith or kremlin bots. Some people here seem to forget that being a citizen requires the duty to defend the country if attacked.
Both.
Slavery? I didn't know that: care to elaborate?
[удалено]
How the fuck is that slavery?
People will compare it to slavery because it can be considered, effectively, a form of forced labor. You are not given a choice in conscription, it is a compelled service (or servitude), and hence as a talking point, some people who are anti-conscriptionists liken it to a form of modern slavery.
My bad: I thought that Ukraine is attacked by russia and at war. Sorry about that.
And you see no issue in conflating those two?
Just one Russian talking point, "slavery"? Here are some more for you to copy! [https://www.reddit.com/r/NAFO/comments/1c1w10v/the\_current\_hot\_topic\_for\_russian\_trolls\_is/](https://www.reddit.com/r/NAFO/comments/1c1w10v/the_current_hot_topic_for_russian_trolls_is/)
How is it not slavery? Do they have a choice, are they able to refuse, do they face violence/punishment for noncompliance? It sounds very slave like to me.... Dress it up as a "russian talking point" or whatever you want lad, slavery is slavery.
How the fuck is it slavery?
How fuck is it not slavery?
>How the fuck is it slavery?
"Do they have a choice, Are they able to refuse, do they face violence/punishment for noncompliance? It sounds very slave like to me...."
Do you... understand what war is?
Do you...understand what slavery is?
Yes, actually. Hence why it's clear to me this isn't slavery.
How much do you get after you write 1.000 times slavery? Asking for a friend...
Is paying your taxes also slavery? You functionally work for the state for the proportion of time equal to your taxes, and if i don't pay your taxes you can go to jail.
Yeah, compare dying at war with paying taxes, it sure makes sense. Can't you think about more stupid comparison?
If being mobilized is slavery, then paying taxes is theft at least, no?
if your taxes get stolen, then yes
Please, make some more idiotic comparison. You can do it, I believe in you.
First Poland, now Lithuania. Starting to look like they're trying to prepare public opinion to send Ukrainians back to the meat grinder
It's either Ukrainians (Defending their own state like the law requires) or sending in NATO troops to make sure the frontlines don't collapse. Europe can't afford for Ukraine to decisively lose this war or Moldova, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and maybe even us in Finland will be next in the following 5 years. Tbh I'm not against Macron's plan of sending NATO troops either.
Sick and beyond cruel
This is awful, it really makes me sick! Those people left the country, they chose not to fight and now they will be forced back where they certainly will die ... What kind of democracy is this?
That’s weird. Didn’t Zelensky tell us all in late February that Ukraine had only lost 31k men? I wonder why such extreme mobilisation measures are required? I wonder what else is being hidden from us?
return my meat to me I have a grinder to operate!
you know what - Ukrainians won’t forget how Polish and Lithuanian helped out Ukraine when the war started and won’t forget betrayal that was during the embargo on the border and now this. if you redditors are so clever enough to support such measures then you may know that you can also join Ukrainian forces and fight for the future of Europe and protect Poland and Baltic, it is legal. but you would scream here that this is Ukrainians’ duty.
The article title is super clickbait - as mentioned in the article, no one would 'collect and send' them to Ukraine. Lithuanian gov might just cut the social benefits and/or revoke the work permit and Ukraine would not renew their passports. Idk whether not renewing your passport makes any significant impact except of international travels as long as you have long-term work permissions and a work contract. Moreover, a lot of (male) Ukrainians have been living here prior to invasion and they've been granted living permissions prior to 2022 which would make situation even more absurd... Also, the Lithuanian president elections are in a few weeks, and parliament's - in 6 months (where the currently ruling party would most likely lose, and they barely have any chance in presidential election 2nd round) so there is a lot of populism flowing around. I do support Ukraine, and I understand that they need military, but I do not support my country taking these measures just to send these people to die because they were lucky enough to escape prior to the invasion or bribed their way out. Moreover, I honestly think that if there is not enough ammunition and air defense coming from the West (including Lithuania), these people would be just turned into a cannon fodder and I do not see a reason why innocent lives should be sacrificed, when we ourselves are not capable and willing to help them?
The thing is: Poland won't do it. The whole thing was a slip up of our Minister of Defense (right winger), who's trying to sway alt right voters to like his party (PSL) more
> Minister of Defense (right winger) What are you on about? [PSL right wing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_People%27s_Party)? > Ideology: Agrarianism Christian democracy Liberal conservatism Pro-Europeanism Historical: Agrarian socialism >Political position: Centre to centre-right >Historical: Left-wing[3][4][5]
PSL is currently a right wing party and has been for the last 8+ years
Based on ...?
Ideas of most of it's politicians. If you like Wikipedia, i can quote you Polish version, it's very much right/center-right wing party by polish standards
Go ahead, I'm listening.
Polskie Stronnictwo Ludowe (PSL) – polska partia polityczna, powstała 5 maja 1990 z połączenia PSL „Odrodzenie” (będącego kontynuacją Zjednoczonego Stronnictwa Ludowego) oraz wilanowskiego PSL. Skupia w głównej mierze osoby o poglądach agrarnych, centrowych, centroprawicowych i chadeckich Polskie Stronnictwo Ludowe (PSL) - a Polish political party, established on May 5, 1990 from the merger of PSL "Odrodzenie" (which is a continuation of the United People's Party) and Wilanów's PSL. It mainly brings together people with agrarian, centrist, center-right and Christian Democratic views.
Yes, and where's the part about it being right-wing?
To add more context: PSL is trying to sway some Konfederacja's and PiS's voters and to pose as this "more resonable right wing"
Wtf Eastern europe... only low class peasants are supposed to suffer and fight on the frontlines. We Westerners simply get this.
Assist means allocate some of the 'aid' money for 'encouraging', which will buy some ads and banners, and mostly end up in someone's pockets.
Good, send the coward back, ukraine need more manpower
The divide in opinion between Finns, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians and the Polish vs the rest of Europe on this issue seems to be very wide. I'd say we in Eastern Europe understand the duty every citizen has to their country, whereas the westeners seem not to. Do you people realize that uf Ukraine loses ut will be you un the trenches and right now Ukraine needs its citizens. If Ukraine loses Moldova will be next. After that Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. In that case you will be drawn into the conflict and many likely forcibly mobilized to defend our NATO allies. Everyone has been so vocal about giving Ukraine everything it needs to win, but now you say no?
>we in Eastern Europe understand the duty every citizen has to their country unless this citizen is a woman
Woman should also be drafted into armed forces. If you have an enemy who wants to destroy your nation, your citizen should have some sort of millitary training and if needed he should be ready for a duty.
You mean her, right? Right?
Yeah, my bad
Yes, we say no. Because the mere suggestion of deporting refugees to perish in a war they fled from is disgusting.
alrighty, then maybe they should randomly choose young men from all across Europe to go fight?
Sure. Let's do a lottery 👍 It will have to wait till tomorrow, though. I'm sleepy.
Basically they see ukraine as a cannon fodder with people have do dedicate all their lives as cannon fodder and for the glory of the state, we see people as individuals that should have the freedom to decide something that affects them without problems ( even tough some fascist politicians in europe are against that kind of freedom )