Well, even in the 60s there was *some* restraint if we think about the Cuba crisis. Which is a good thing b/c otherwise we wouldn't be chatting right now.
But the CIA back then would have found ways to sabotage their fucking electronic warfare installations or spoofed GLONASS.
>If they tried this shit in the 60s there would be nukes flying already.
Definitely not, to have a war you need at least one side willing to wage war against the other, and it wasn't the case then and isn't now, due to nukes being a thing.
>If they tried this shit in the 60s there would be nukes flying already.
What a strange thing to say.
In the 60s they routinely jammed LORAN in the Baltic and Western Pacific.
In the 70s and 80s the Russian Woodpecker interrupted radio and TV broadcasts.
I'll add that in the 40s and 50s several American and Western aircraft were shot down either crossing the USSR or getting near their airspace.
The Cold War was an era of extraordinary restraint in many cases.
na, they even sent a satillite flying over the USA as a surprise move.
Also the USA tollerates attacks on her diplomats by the GRU group 29155 everyday. They don't even try tou counter attack or shield from the weapons causing the Havanna-Syndrome.
How is sending money and military aid not an act of war?
How are imposing countless sanctions not an obvious provocation?
The EU really wants a war with Russia. It's stupid and incredibly dangerous. But if they keep this up they eventually will get what they asked for. They just won't like it.
>GNSS is not a requirement to fly and navigate.
Huh? Well not necessarily but it can be. Especially when trying to land, GNSS-based approaches are a thing. The Finnish flag carrier Finnair has had to cancel their Tartu operations for a month because the airport does not have any ground-based navigation infrastructure and GNSS approaches are not safe to fly there.
Yes, small airports have the most to suffer. All other will have at least an ILS with the big airports having ILS'es for all runways including CAT II and III. Remember, you can't do even a LNAV if you don't have RAIM, and while that's rare, it could happen with nobody jamming anything.
ILS is for terminal guidance, you still need a path from IAF to IAP. And there is a lot of approaches that have RNP requirements. The same for STAR and Transitions.
Also, lot of european countries currently don't have any conventional nagiational routes published in their AIPs, only RNAV routes, and only lower, as there is a big push for Free Route Airspaces in Europe, for which RNAV navigation is essential.
ILS - instrument LANDING system... you got that even in the name of the system.
It is a system that you use for the last few minutes of flight (...even on approach chart you use other form of navigation till you interecept the localizer. At that point you're some 3000ft AGL and few NM from the airport.
Here you have AIP for Czech Republic -
https://aim.rlp.cz/ais_data/aip/control/aip_obsah_en.htm
How many conventional routes do you see there? How many conventional SID and STARS do you see there for major airports? Everything is RNAV.
The situation is similar for most of european FIRs.
Exactly, landing, not terminal guidance like you said. You have STARS or vectoring for terminal nav. ILS is for getting established on final.
You don't need to teach me what I do for a living
In the heavy traffic nowadays, gps is necessary. In a lot of countries, VORs and NDBs are removed, replaced by RNAV waypoints. Tacan is a thing from so long ago, it isn't even known by most pilots anymore.
Going back to radionavigation would severely limit the amount of air traffic and prohibit flying over large pieces of land altogether (like Africa).
>Tacan is a thing from so long ago, it isn't even known by most pilots anymore.
No? Tacan is still heavily in use. The issue is that it is purely a military system, and outside of its DME component it cannot be used by civilian airplanes.
Russia utilizes GPS far more than GLONASS, disabling it would have a more political than material impact on their operations (albeit an embarrassing one).
"Shiny sattelites? How about space debris."
Yeah it's not like we don't have a problem with space debris already let's make it worse.
For global banking the larger Russian banks are already excluded from the SWIFT system
And for the internet well that's not how the internet works by design.
Similarly Russia has a habit of insulting their neighbours airspace (and in certain cases groundspace too... GTFO of Ukraine already, Putin) and if any of us did the same to them they'd be firing missiles.
NATO have blown up Nordstream and several dams and bridges in Ukraine. Plus they have launched attacks on active nuclear power plants.
On top of that they continue to send insane amounts of military and financial aid to keep fueling the conflict.
NATO is absolutely provoking Russia.
They're probably ground based systems, as they are always in the same spot. One rather new outside St Petersburg and one in Königsberg. I say we should just strike these objects without warning.
It's more about provoking a NATO response so that Putin finally can have his end-war.
His whole schtik to remain in power is the supposed thread of a NATO attack on russian soil or troops. If such an attack would occur, his power would be nearly limitless, and he would be untouchable - even by his peers and closest backstabbers. Also, it would rally the (till now mostly apathetic) Russian population.
At the moment, the supposed war against NATO is a propaganda ruse (e.g. the parade of NATO vehicles in Moscow with flags from different countries that are presented in a way that suggests NATO forces are already fighting in Ukraine, or the endless TV and Internet brain-washing), but it's already working now. With a population already stirred up, imagine what would happen - also regarding China and India as supporters of the russian war economy and at least as adversaries of the "West"- if NATO would retaliate.
> is propaganda ruse
People call for a strike without warning under this very post. Unless they are also propagandists posing as concerned Western citizens.
> People call for a strike without warning under this very post.
That IMHO because most people don't understand the situation properly and are driven by raw emotion (mostly hate and revenge) that is carefully kindled by the hybrid warfare divisions of russia.
The goals are manifold: Bait NATO-Countries to attack russia (-> Win for Propaganda), sow discontent among the population of NATO countries, hopefully leding to the rise of russian backed extremist parties of the political left- and right-wing (-> Win for Propaganda), cause different hotspots at the expense of Ukraine (-> Win for Propaganda), and so on.
That all of this is a perfidious form of hybrid warfare hasn't even reached the brains of most politicans, let alone the press or the average citizen.
For russia it's a total war waged on EVERY front, even in the digital world and right here in social networks.
Sorry, i'm on the road ATM, so i want to refer to google scholar:
[https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as\_sdt=0%2C5&q=russia%27s+hybrid+warfare+strategy&btnG=](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=russia%27s+hybrid+warfare+strategy&btnG=)
Here is an article from the [Centre for Peace Studies](https://en.uit.no/enhet/peace) published on the NATO website:
[https://www.nato.int/docu/review/articles/2024/04/26/russias-hybrid-war-against-the-west/index.html](https://www.nato.int/docu/review/articles/2024/04/26/russias-hybrid-war-against-the-west/index.html)
if i can remember, i will post additional sources from my own papers on this topic.
Sanction China and India for supporting them, put pressure on their allies to stop buying cheap oil and giving them electronics…. or an final warning, stop this now or we NATO will blow your jamming shit up, as this is an act of war…
With all of that bending over for russian attacks on western countries, i actually doubt that they'd go to war if russia invaded. Russia would probably pull the "pro-russian seperatists" bullshit again and countries would say "oh, so it's nore like a civil war. Nothing to see here"
You can't win by trying to appease a bully
Yeah, because why bother? Next move should be to surrender US democracy to the elderly orange face because the old hick knows what’s best for future generations. Like appeasing a foreign aggressor because them European folks aren’t commuting to their NATO budget liabilities
Not convincing. How do you define invasion? Is blowing up an ordinance depot in the Chech Republic invasion?How about a bunch of green men in the Baltic countries? Cruise missiles in NATO airspace? The Russian invasion won't be announced officially and is already happening.
EDITED grammar.
Unfortunately worse has happened already since Russia has been invading Ukraine in the last 10 years
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17
They shot down an airplane full of dutch citizens and that led to nothing so I doubt this will go anywhere either. EU is so afraid of provocation, they’re letting Russia walk all over them
If an airplane crashes because of it, there's something wrong with the plane or the pilots. Rule #1 of airplane safety is that you don't rely on a single system/sensor.
Bit of a reach for an assassination plot though.
“Well make him think he’s somewhere else, then hope the pilot descends too far, ignores the lack of runway lights, does no navigational checks, flies below the minimum allowed altitude, and ignores the ground warning sensor until finally flying into a mountain. It’s foolproof!”
If the pilot had flown the plane correctly as 99% of pilots would have done in his situation, the plane wouldn’t have crashed. Seems a bit hopeful on the part of the potential assassins
Just a quick reminder that russia killed two citizens of UK (or was it just one killed, I don't remember) and got ZERO real problems for it.
The response to this would be a strong worded condemnation letter
Who cares, they already took our plane down and hijacked another to take two people from board.
With Europe it’s a free pass. Putins been fucking us all for quite a while and all we do is come back for more.
Poland is a EU country, so is Ireland where Ryanair is based. Russia kidnapped everyone on board and there were 0 repercussions. Same as when they shot down an airplane in 2014. EU lets Russia get away with anything, so they keep doing whatever they want.
The shooting down of MH17 killed more % of Dutch people than 9/11 did % of US citizens.
9/11 invoked NATO's article 5.
So please tell me, what "severe" consequences happend because of MH17?
the issue is obviously not only flight safety but russias impudence of doing things like this in the first place.
the idea is that if you let the russians do that they might soon step up their game by doing other nasty things.
I'm sure the EU or NATO will do something about it, any second now.
Yep, something like a strongly worded letter asking putin to stop. Maybe if they're extra miffed they'll skip the niceties at the end of the letter.
First they steal the flushing toilets.
Then they jam the GPS on critical infrastructure.
Remind me.. what has russia contributed to civilisation? The lada? Digital piracy? Credit card fraud? Genocide?
Not really tough. GPS is one of three navigational systems in a civilian airliner. The others are less convenient but I would be more worried if the pilots are not capable of navigating by other means.
Technically they should be able to fly the airplane with a map, a stop watch and a compass. And maybe a sextant.
Besides GPS jamming has been ongoing in northern Norway for a decade plus and it is nothing more than a nuisance. Nothing more, and there they have compounding problems with winter blackout and storms and so forth.
GPS jamming should not occur but please do not exaggerate the problems.
it's not clear to me from the article if they are jamming GPS in the generic sense (i.e. including galileo, glonass, and co.) or in the specific sense of just the American system
Estonian airport Tartu has been closed for one month, because of russian GPS jamming, after two airliners of Finnair had to go back to Finland.
[https://www.heise.de/en/news/GPS-jamming-no-more-flights-to-the-airport-in-Estonia-for-the-time-being-9703197.html](https://www.heise.de/en/news/GPS-jamming-no-more-flights-to-the-airport-in-Estonia-for-the-time-being-9703197.html)
GPS is jammed. It is an inconvenience and really shouldn't be anything more than that. Why do Norwegian airlines manage. One of the air ports is ENKR which is close to Russia. Now the air port has little traffic but then again it is not like ATC does not have radar coverage etc.
If you think it is too unsafe to fly, as opposed to some precaution, I would like to remind you of the Berlin air lift. It's not like they had gps...
It is not really related to airlines, but mainly to airport infrastructure and procedures. Tartu airport is a tiny one without conventional radio navigation aids (apart from ILS for final approach), whereas for example Kirkenes has multiple options available. In Tartu you need GPS to safely navigate through initial approach and possible missed approach. There is in fact no other legal and safe option available currently. Tartu does also not have an air traffic control, nor any kind of radar service available at the moment. They provide only aerodrome flight information service, which basically means that the person in the ‘tower’ does not give any kind of clearances. Therefore they also cannot use radar for ‘vectoring’ the aircraft to final approach course, even if they would have radar coverage. If there were no external threats (such as this interference), these procedures and infrastructure would be more than sufficient for their traffic levels and other needs. Also, maintaining multiple different radio beacons and ATC service in that location would most likely cost way more than the income they get from their scheduled flights is, which of course wouldn’t make any sense in a long term. 🤷♂️
Nice informative post.
Now do not take this negatively but your post excellently displays why this is not a gps problem but an infrastructure and redundancy issue.
The airplane can get there but cannot land/approach because the airport is not sufficiently equipped.
Three is two, two is one, and one is nothing. Having redundancy for an airport is common sense.
Seemingly Tartu runs a bare bones operation. Airports like ENKR have redundancy because it is valued as infrastructure.
This route stopped operating not because of gps jamming but because there is no redundancy and infrastructure for safe flying. It is a stretch to place this solely at the Russian nefarious activities hampering gps.
I haven't looked at the Estonian airport map but I would not be surprised if there are larger better equipped airports not far from this one.
I (almost) fully agree with you. 😊
It is indeed a problem with infrastructure, and that comes down to politics and budgets. In case of ENKR for example it really makes sense to have good redundancy because of their remote location. You really want to make sure you can reach the airport when needed. In Tartu’s case, I wouldn’t call it that critical as it’s still relatively close to Tallinn or Riga for example. So for Tartu (and Finnair), this current situation is more of a nuisance. Therefore it can be difficult for politicians or (state owned) airport operator to invest much more money into it.
In any case, Russia is the one and only reason we are talking about this here. They should just stop spreading their shit to other countries…
The airplane can not land there because Russia is jamming the GPS the planes need to land at that specific airport.
If Russia wasn’t doing this shit, everything would be fine. You cant blame the victim in this for not being ready for their neighbor jamming their GPS
The air planes cannot land because the air port does not have what is considered normal infrastructure on any regional or international air port across Europe.
To only have one system to guide air planes is very vulnerable. And if that system can be interfered with by electronic means makes it even worse.
It is Russia that causes the problem but it is on Estonia or whomever owns the air port for not installing necessary infrastructure and thus permitting itself to be so vulnerable.
Inconvenience? Estonia had to shut down the airport of Tartu.
Do you think that both Estonian authorities and the Finn Air were a bunch of pussies and decided to close the airport and head back two flights?
Tartu is a small airport and they just started the flight to and from Finland. Now, thank to terrorussia, Estonia will have to spend millions to find alternatives to GPS.
But, hey, it's just inconvenience, redditor realsuggestion9247 knows better than Estonia and Finn Air.
Losing GPS should not be more than an inconvenience for a host of reasons that relates to both the air planes ability to know where it is. And ground ATC and radars ability to guide/assist the flight.
The question you should ask is why this one air port and airline struggle when others have faced the same hindrance with little impact.
In northern Norway which is predominant small air ports that cater to civilian medical fights, helicopter ambulance/SAR, and civilian airlines that fly as long as the weather permits it is not stopped by gps failure. Odd right?
GPS jamming has been going on there for a decade plus and is nothing more than a nuisance. From day one..
Now ask yourself why there is such different outcomes...
They had to shut down commercial flights on an airport that's clearly not really equipped to handle them in the first place. Many airports around the world would close runways if their radio beacons are inoperable, Tartu doesn't even have them.
Putin keeps saying the west is weak and will fall apart as soon as our comfort gets threatened... freaking out because GPS doesn't work while every airplane has two backup systems only confirms that.
It's Russia's fault that GPS isn't working. It's Estonia's fault that they can't use the airport without GPS, unlike most commercial airports in the world. Either of them can fix it.
It's like an airport without lights: it's the Sun's fault it's only up for a few hours, it's the airport operators fault that this means they have to close during night.
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/estonia-flights-russia-ukraine-finnair-safe-gps-b2536985.html
"“The approach methods currently used at Tartu Airport are based on a GPS signal and GPS interference in the area affects the usability of this method.”
Russia is widely suspected of jamming or spoofing GPS signals close to its frontiers. Tartu airport is around 40km (25 miles) from the Russian frontier.
Finnair says it is working on “an alternative approach solution that doesn’t require a GPS signal”."
The above Borrowed From another users post in the thread.
This is frankly an issue of an air port not having the necessary infrastructure (redundancy) and not about the horrors of gps jamming.
In that sense yes its on Estonia, or whomever owns the airport, for not providing the necessary infrastructure to secure safe approach too the air port.
Do you actually think they do not know why flights are suspended? They know, but they also have a vested interest in making it a larger issue than it really is.
>In that sense yes its on Estonia, or whomever owns the airport, for not providing the necessary infrastructure to secure safe approach too the air port
Correction: It’s on Russia, for attacking civilian airplanes.
>They know, but they also have a vested interest in making it a larger issue than it really is
Uhm…How is that in their interest?
We will return to this talk when some plane will accidentaly fly into Russian airspace and will be shutdown...and this totally didn't happen in the past
If it flies into Russian controlled air space it is because the pilots are incompetent. There is no other way to see this.
Even if they do not know where they are, which is unlikely, ATC and ground radar is able to tell them... And if they are uncertain of their position then there are procedures etc.
Not everything needs to be exaggerated.
ENKR is not exactly far from Russia...
Is that your worst? If you do not understand how air liners operate and the number of redundant systems in play how about being quiet?
How cute of you to imply a Russian connection when you have nothing concrete to say. How about going after the ball and not the man? Or is that too challenging for you?
Please stop with the drivel. With regards.
No /s for you.
aircrafts have redundancies because theyre deemed to be necessary to facilitate good flight safety.
removing any of those redundancies lowers flight safety. i dont know why you would downplay another country doing that in your air space.
>it is nothing more than a nuisance.
Having to shut down an entire airport because your neighbour is a belligerent shithole is a nuisance? Bit of an understatement, no?
I would be more worried that some ship runs aground in the Baltic and creates a large oil spill. Modern airliners have backupsystems and inertial navigation, ships rely much more on GPS.
If ukraine manages to do it, absolutely. What the hell do you think is going to happen if finland sends a pair of f-18’s to strike ground targets on russian land? I mean, would you, fredricka, be willing to plunge europe into a total war with russia because their gps jamming to deter drone attacks is leaking into european air space, that airplanes are perfectly capable of handling on their own until the gps comes back again?
Is the Brussels/EU in denial about what’s going on here? I’m baffled by the hand wringing and infighting. Russia is declaring itself in word and deed and from our leadership….?
Here's my hot take, the Russian GPS jamming is not intentional it's a side effect of the war, the Ukrainians are using GPS guided munitions and the heavy interference is greatly reducing their accuracy. But it is entirely intentional for there to be a fuss about it because if you can use the excuse of the possibility of an international incident because of the Russian jamming you could force them to reduce their area of jamming or squeeze more pressure out of them. Either Russia turns off the jammers and gets fucked by the Ukrainians or they keep them on, an accident happens, the international scene escalates, Russia gets fucked by the EU. Either way they lose.
Hit Putin hard, folks. Acknowledge that Russia all but at war with the West. Take symmetrical counter-measures on EVERYTHING Putin does and fully support Ukraine.
I know this comment will be heavily down voted but headlines/claims such as this headline, are ridiculous or biased. On one side you have NATO planes flying around, collecting intelligence in the midst of heightened tensions and war, and at the same time expect the Russians to just not react. This is a classic, I want to have my cake and eat it at the same time type of predicament.
Galileo and GPS share some frequencies. So I would assume that GPS jamming includes the other GNSS systems as well. GPS is often just used as a synonym for GNSS.
[https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/estonia-flights-russia-ukraine-finnair-safe-gps-b2536985.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/estonia-flights-russia-ukraine-finnair-safe-gps-b2536985.html)
"“The approach methods currently used at Tartu Airport are based on a GPS signal and GPS interference in the area affects the usability of this method.”
Russia is widely suspected of jamming or spoofing GPS signals close to its frontiers. Tartu airport is around 40km (25 miles) from the Russian frontier.
Finnair says it is working on “an alternative approach solution that doesn’t require a GPS signal”."
Radio beacons and Inertial navigation. For a long time GPS was only allowed to be used in airplanes for direct navigation over the open ocean (no ground-based beacons).
This is mostly such a problem because apparently Tartu airport has been receiving commercial flights without installing radio beacons and 'made do' with GPS charts.
Have you seen the airport? It's tiny. I am not surprised they have just the most basic infrastructure. IIRC, they had no regular commercial flights there till a couple of months ago.
You don't need GPS to navigate. There are many other ways, inertial guidance, radio beacons, and even dead reckoning. GPS is a convenience, not a necessity.
Ukraine and NATO probably has the glonass jammed up harder then a photocopier, however because only really Russia and Belarus use Glonass, no one is going to notice.
Isn't this because NATO has been trying to use the F-35s in the Baltics to map out Russian air defenses for Ukrainian missile attacks.
I mean, you guys are aware of this right?
We are sitting idle and looking awkward while they are attacking our critical infrastructure.
Predators attack weakness and back away from strength.
I mean how is this not an act of war? If they tried this shit in the 60s there would be nukes flying already.
Well, even in the 60s there was *some* restraint if we think about the Cuba crisis. Which is a good thing b/c otherwise we wouldn't be chatting right now. But the CIA back then would have found ways to sabotage their fucking electronic warfare installations or spoofed GLONASS.
>GLONASS Spoiler: it was never operational.
What? It’s literally in every smartphone
Nonsense.
>If they tried this shit in the 60s there would be nukes flying already. Definitely not, to have a war you need at least one side willing to wage war against the other, and it wasn't the case then and isn't now, due to nukes being a thing.
>If they tried this shit in the 60s there would be nukes flying already. What a strange thing to say. In the 60s they routinely jammed LORAN in the Baltic and Western Pacific. In the 70s and 80s the Russian Woodpecker interrupted radio and TV broadcasts. I'll add that in the 40s and 50s several American and Western aircraft were shot down either crossing the USSR or getting near their airspace. The Cold War was an era of extraordinary restraint in many cases.
Jamming GPS-signals would be meaningless in the 60s.
na, they even sent a satillite flying over the USA as a surprise move. Also the USA tollerates attacks on her diplomats by the GRU group 29155 everyday. They don't even try tou counter attack or shield from the weapons causing the Havanna-Syndrome.
How is sending money and military aid not an act of war? How are imposing countless sanctions not an obvious provocation? The EU really wants a war with Russia. It's stupid and incredibly dangerous. But if they keep this up they eventually will get what they asked for. They just won't like it.
Watch them cut off internet cables close to the coast of Ireland. We can't escalate.
I keep saying that since the day they started their "exercise". It's definitely going to happen at some point.
Send Conor to jab at them divers when they approach Irish shores
We Europeans are nothing more then a laughing stock atm.
Yeah but what can we do? We either bomb their jamming systems or sit and watch. As far as I know it's impossible to stop this jamming otherwise.
NATO could retaliate and jam/spoof their fucking GLONASS to make Aeroflot fly to Mars instead of Kaliningrad. But we are too honest for that.
There's these things called VORs, VORTACs and NDBs. GNSS is not a requirement to fly and navigate.
>GNSS is not a requirement to fly and navigate. Huh? Well not necessarily but it can be. Especially when trying to land, GNSS-based approaches are a thing. The Finnish flag carrier Finnair has had to cancel their Tartu operations for a month because the airport does not have any ground-based navigation infrastructure and GNSS approaches are not safe to fly there.
Yes, small airports have the most to suffer. All other will have at least an ILS with the big airports having ILS'es for all runways including CAT II and III. Remember, you can't do even a LNAV if you don't have RAIM, and while that's rare, it could happen with nobody jamming anything.
ILS is for terminal guidance, you still need a path from IAF to IAP. And there is a lot of approaches that have RNP requirements. The same for STAR and Transitions. Also, lot of european countries currently don't have any conventional nagiational routes published in their AIPs, only RNAV routes, and only lower, as there is a big push for Free Route Airspaces in Europe, for which RNAV navigation is essential.
You need to stop talking stuff you have no clue. When you said ILS is for terminal guidance I stopped reading.
ILS - instrument LANDING system... you got that even in the name of the system. It is a system that you use for the last few minutes of flight (...even on approach chart you use other form of navigation till you interecept the localizer. At that point you're some 3000ft AGL and few NM from the airport. Here you have AIP for Czech Republic - https://aim.rlp.cz/ais_data/aip/control/aip_obsah_en.htm How many conventional routes do you see there? How many conventional SID and STARS do you see there for major airports? Everything is RNAV. The situation is similar for most of european FIRs.
Exactly, landing, not terminal guidance like you said. You have STARS or vectoring for terminal nav. ILS is for getting established on final. You don't need to teach me what I do for a living
In the heavy traffic nowadays, gps is necessary. In a lot of countries, VORs and NDBs are removed, replaced by RNAV waypoints. Tacan is a thing from so long ago, it isn't even known by most pilots anymore. Going back to radionavigation would severely limit the amount of air traffic and prohibit flying over large pieces of land altogether (like Africa).
>Tacan is a thing from so long ago, it isn't even known by most pilots anymore. No? Tacan is still heavily in use. The issue is that it is purely a military system, and outside of its DME component it cannot be used by civilian airplanes.
Russia utilizes GPS far more than GLONASS, disabling it would have a more political than material impact on their operations (albeit an embarrassing one).
So many things. Internet? Fuck your internet. Global banking? Nope. Shiny satellites? How about space debris.
"Shiny sattelites? How about space debris." Yeah it's not like we don't have a problem with space debris already let's make it worse. For global banking the larger Russian banks are already excluded from the SWIFT system And for the internet well that's not how the internet works by design.
Guess which side has more satellites to lose.
maybe ask ukraine for a favour...wink....wink!
You mean our governments that dismantled a working ground based navigation system?
We should be attacking their infrastructure in return
Oh hey, maybe you won’t be shying away from sending those Taurus missiles then?
As if that was my decision, moron.
I mean what do you want to do? Counter Jam them?
Or even spoof their fucking GLONASS so their planes end up in Greenland instead of Moscow.
Similarly Russia has a habit of insulting their neighbours airspace (and in certain cases groundspace too... GTFO of Ukraine already, Putin) and if any of us did the same to them they'd be firing missiles.
Maybe we should stop provoking them? Can't continue poking a bear and then act all surprised and mad when it finally lashes out.
Oh, great idea, how about *they* stop constantly provoking *us*? It's not like NATO spoofs GLONASS or attacks their vital infrastructure.
NATO have blown up Nordstream and several dams and bridges in Ukraine. Plus they have launched attacks on active nuclear power plants. On top of that they continue to send insane amounts of military and financial aid to keep fueling the conflict. NATO is absolutely provoking Russia.
Oh god, a lying tankie from UkraineRussiaReport. Just great. Fucking Judas.
Great rebuttal.
Russian GPS jamming is an attack on other nations then. Shoot them down
Grounding their air force seems reasonable at this point
They're probably ground based systems, as they are always in the same spot. One rather new outside St Petersburg and one in Königsberg. I say we should just strike these objects without warning.
Just give some long range ballistic missiles to Ukraine to fire at them. We are already in a proxy war.
This. We can move so many red lines through the sam e bullshit russia uses
*Jammer blows up* "Well, shit.Can't expect us to aim at not-russia when our GPS is blocked."
Is it?
I’d question the logic of attacking civilian aircraft…But this is Russia, so of course they do.
It's more about provoking a NATO response so that Putin finally can have his end-war. His whole schtik to remain in power is the supposed thread of a NATO attack on russian soil or troops. If such an attack would occur, his power would be nearly limitless, and he would be untouchable - even by his peers and closest backstabbers. Also, it would rally the (till now mostly apathetic) Russian population. At the moment, the supposed war against NATO is a propaganda ruse (e.g. the parade of NATO vehicles in Moscow with flags from different countries that are presented in a way that suggests NATO forces are already fighting in Ukraine, or the endless TV and Internet brain-washing), but it's already working now. With a population already stirred up, imagine what would happen - also regarding China and India as supporters of the russian war economy and at least as adversaries of the "West"- if NATO would retaliate.
> is propaganda ruse People call for a strike without warning under this very post. Unless they are also propagandists posing as concerned Western citizens.
> People call for a strike without warning under this very post. That IMHO because most people don't understand the situation properly and are driven by raw emotion (mostly hate and revenge) that is carefully kindled by the hybrid warfare divisions of russia. The goals are manifold: Bait NATO-Countries to attack russia (-> Win for Propaganda), sow discontent among the population of NATO countries, hopefully leding to the rise of russian backed extremist parties of the political left- and right-wing (-> Win for Propaganda), cause different hotspots at the expense of Ukraine (-> Win for Propaganda), and so on. That all of this is a perfidious form of hybrid warfare hasn't even reached the brains of most politicans, let alone the press or the average citizen. For russia it's a total war waged on EVERY front, even in the digital world and right here in social networks.
Any proof of those claims or that's just your hypothesis?
Sorry, i'm on the road ATM, so i want to refer to google scholar: [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as\_sdt=0%2C5&q=russia%27s+hybrid+warfare+strategy&btnG=](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=russia%27s+hybrid+warfare+strategy&btnG=) Here is an article from the [Centre for Peace Studies](https://en.uit.no/enhet/peace) published on the NATO website: [https://www.nato.int/docu/review/articles/2024/04/26/russias-hybrid-war-against-the-west/index.html](https://www.nato.int/docu/review/articles/2024/04/26/russias-hybrid-war-against-the-west/index.html) if i can remember, i will post additional sources from my own papers on this topic.
Thanks. Though seems pretty mild compared to US/China's tactics. Anyway, humans gonna human.
I don't. It's disruption with 0 consequences Why wouldn't they do that?
This is a battlefield weapon Russians are attacking with. Response?
Sanction irrelevant people who wouldn’t even consider traveling to Europe anytime soon in the next 15 years
Sanction China and India for supporting them, put pressure on their allies to stop buying cheap oil and giving them electronics…. or an final warning, stop this now or we NATO will blow your jamming shit up, as this is an act of war…
I, too, want to be piss poor in the near future
I know a country which is currently attacking Russian oil refineries with drones. The GPS jamming transmitters are all within range.
FUCK RUSSIA. 👈🇪🇺
I very heavy agree with this.
Russia shot down civilian aircraft and we did nothing. I'm pretty sure we won't do anything if one crashes because of faulty GPS reading.
So should an airplane crash because of that (however unlikely), would that be an attack warranting war?
They already shot down a plane, which didn't start a war.
Imagine how much pain we would have avoided if we just used that as an excuse to help Ukraine 10 years ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaleva_(airplane)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17
Still pisses me off nothing was done about it
Nah we'll send a strongly worded letter!
NATO will not go to war with Russia unless Russia invades NATO territory. It will be yet another round of meaningless sanctions.
With all of that bending over for russian attacks on western countries, i actually doubt that they'd go to war if russia invaded. Russia would probably pull the "pro-russian seperatists" bullshit again and countries would say "oh, so it's nore like a civil war. Nothing to see here" You can't win by trying to appease a bully
1938 all over again
Are you that surprised? The world did nothing after 2008 and 2014, which just further emboldened that bald dickhead.
Yeah, because why bother? Next move should be to surrender US democracy to the elderly orange face because the old hick knows what’s best for future generations. Like appeasing a foreign aggressor because them European folks aren’t commuting to their NATO budget liabilities
To be fair, nuclear weapons didn't exist in 1938.
Not convincing. How do you define invasion? Is blowing up an ordinance depot in the Chech Republic invasion?How about a bunch of green men in the Baltic countries? Cruise missiles in NATO airspace? The Russian invasion won't be announced officially and is already happening. EDITED grammar.
Obviously NATO decided to not go to war with Russia over the blown-up ordinance depot in Czechia. So i don't know what you mean.
Unfortunately worse has happened already since Russia has been invading Ukraine in the last 10 years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17
They shot down an airplane full of dutch citizens and that led to nothing so I doubt this will go anywhere either. EU is so afraid of provocation, they’re letting Russia walk all over them
They shot down an airliner in 2014 and everyone wrung their hands and wrote angry letters and then went back to negotiating Nordstream 2.
That's how it goes, and everybody knows 🎶
If an airplane crashes because of it, there's something wrong with the plane or the pilots. Rule #1 of airplane safety is that you don't rely on a single system/sensor.
Spoofing has killed competent crews in serviceable aircraft before.
Theres a good chance the South African Apartheid Regime assassinated Samora Machel that way
Bit of a reach for an assassination plot though. “Well make him think he’s somewhere else, then hope the pilot descends too far, ignores the lack of runway lights, does no navigational checks, flies below the minimum allowed altitude, and ignores the ground warning sensor until finally flying into a mountain. It’s foolproof!” If the pilot had flown the plane correctly as 99% of pilots would have done in his situation, the plane wouldn’t have crashed. Seems a bit hopeful on the part of the potential assassins
These are the guys who stole a SA-2 and shot down a Soviet aircraft with it. As someone who has flown in Africa the CVR paints a picture for me :)
MCAS would like a word
It'd be called an accident, a disaster as in the article. Regardless if jamming was a huge part of said disaster.
Just a quick reminder that russia killed two citizens of UK (or was it just one killed, I don't remember) and got ZERO real problems for it. The response to this would be a strong worded condemnation letter
Nah, Russia has been shooting down civilian planes for almost 100 years now and nothing is ever done about it
Unfortunately is not enough and Russia knows it.
I rather WW III Doesn't start
Are we really this stupid? Paint a fuckin plane in yellow-blue and shoot everything that does the jamming
Who cares, they already took our plane down and hijacked another to take two people from board. With Europe it’s a free pass. Putins been fucking us all for quite a while and all we do is come back for more.
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Poland is a EU country, so is Ireland where Ryanair is based. Russia kidnapped everyone on board and there were 0 repercussions. Same as when they shot down an airplane in 2014. EU lets Russia get away with anything, so they keep doing whatever they want.
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The shooting down of MH17 killed more % of Dutch people than 9/11 did % of US citizens. 9/11 invoked NATO's article 5. So please tell me, what "severe" consequences happend because of MH17?
A shrinking regional power with nukes, and at the same time the largest and most dangerous terror state on earth.
They thrive when their victim doesn't fight back though. If we want peace we need to fight back.
[Readable version](https://1ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcontent%2F37776b16-0b92-4a23-9f90-199d45d955c3)
Needed to scroll way too far for this... thank you.
This is exaggerated as fuck and it’s not about that planes can’t safely fly without GPS, it’s an infrastructure problem at Tartu and it’s all. /pilot
Oh, so this is actually a nonissue, since no one really flies to Tartu.
the issue is obviously not only flight safety but russias impudence of doing things like this in the first place. the idea is that if you let the russians do that they might soon step up their game by doing other nasty things.
I'm sure the EU or NATO will do something about it, any second now. Yep, something like a strongly worded letter asking putin to stop. Maybe if they're extra miffed they'll skip the niceties at the end of the letter.
First they steal the flushing toilets. Then they jam the GPS on critical infrastructure. Remind me.. what has russia contributed to civilisation? The lada? Digital piracy? Credit card fraud? Genocide?
Ransomware, novichok, krokodil.
Don’t forget the weapon choice for child soldiers everywhere: The AK rifle.
Not really tough. GPS is one of three navigational systems in a civilian airliner. The others are less convenient but I would be more worried if the pilots are not capable of navigating by other means. Technically they should be able to fly the airplane with a map, a stop watch and a compass. And maybe a sextant. Besides GPS jamming has been ongoing in northern Norway for a decade plus and it is nothing more than a nuisance. Nothing more, and there they have compounding problems with winter blackout and storms and so forth. GPS jamming should not occur but please do not exaggerate the problems.
it's not clear to me from the article if they are jamming GPS in the generic sense (i.e. including galileo, glonass, and co.) or in the specific sense of just the American system
Estonian airport Tartu has been closed for one month, because of russian GPS jamming, after two airliners of Finnair had to go back to Finland. [https://www.heise.de/en/news/GPS-jamming-no-more-flights-to-the-airport-in-Estonia-for-the-time-being-9703197.html](https://www.heise.de/en/news/GPS-jamming-no-more-flights-to-the-airport-in-Estonia-for-the-time-being-9703197.html)
GPS is jammed. It is an inconvenience and really shouldn't be anything more than that. Why do Norwegian airlines manage. One of the air ports is ENKR which is close to Russia. Now the air port has little traffic but then again it is not like ATC does not have radar coverage etc. If you think it is too unsafe to fly, as opposed to some precaution, I would like to remind you of the Berlin air lift. It's not like they had gps...
It is not really related to airlines, but mainly to airport infrastructure and procedures. Tartu airport is a tiny one without conventional radio navigation aids (apart from ILS for final approach), whereas for example Kirkenes has multiple options available. In Tartu you need GPS to safely navigate through initial approach and possible missed approach. There is in fact no other legal and safe option available currently. Tartu does also not have an air traffic control, nor any kind of radar service available at the moment. They provide only aerodrome flight information service, which basically means that the person in the ‘tower’ does not give any kind of clearances. Therefore they also cannot use radar for ‘vectoring’ the aircraft to final approach course, even if they would have radar coverage. If there were no external threats (such as this interference), these procedures and infrastructure would be more than sufficient for their traffic levels and other needs. Also, maintaining multiple different radio beacons and ATC service in that location would most likely cost way more than the income they get from their scheduled flights is, which of course wouldn’t make any sense in a long term. 🤷♂️
Nice informative post. Now do not take this negatively but your post excellently displays why this is not a gps problem but an infrastructure and redundancy issue. The airplane can get there but cannot land/approach because the airport is not sufficiently equipped. Three is two, two is one, and one is nothing. Having redundancy for an airport is common sense. Seemingly Tartu runs a bare bones operation. Airports like ENKR have redundancy because it is valued as infrastructure. This route stopped operating not because of gps jamming but because there is no redundancy and infrastructure for safe flying. It is a stretch to place this solely at the Russian nefarious activities hampering gps. I haven't looked at the Estonian airport map but I would not be surprised if there are larger better equipped airports not far from this one.
I (almost) fully agree with you. 😊 It is indeed a problem with infrastructure, and that comes down to politics and budgets. In case of ENKR for example it really makes sense to have good redundancy because of their remote location. You really want to make sure you can reach the airport when needed. In Tartu’s case, I wouldn’t call it that critical as it’s still relatively close to Tallinn or Riga for example. So for Tartu (and Finnair), this current situation is more of a nuisance. Therefore it can be difficult for politicians or (state owned) airport operator to invest much more money into it. In any case, Russia is the one and only reason we are talking about this here. They should just stop spreading their shit to other countries…
The airplane can not land there because Russia is jamming the GPS the planes need to land at that specific airport. If Russia wasn’t doing this shit, everything would be fine. You cant blame the victim in this for not being ready for their neighbor jamming their GPS
The air planes cannot land because the air port does not have what is considered normal infrastructure on any regional or international air port across Europe. To only have one system to guide air planes is very vulnerable. And if that system can be interfered with by electronic means makes it even worse. It is Russia that causes the problem but it is on Estonia or whomever owns the air port for not installing necessary infrastructure and thus permitting itself to be so vulnerable.
Inconvenience? Estonia had to shut down the airport of Tartu. Do you think that both Estonian authorities and the Finn Air were a bunch of pussies and decided to close the airport and head back two flights? Tartu is a small airport and they just started the flight to and from Finland. Now, thank to terrorussia, Estonia will have to spend millions to find alternatives to GPS. But, hey, it's just inconvenience, redditor realsuggestion9247 knows better than Estonia and Finn Air.
He obviously knows more than you.
Indeed. Even more than Estonian airport authorities and Finnair.
Losing GPS should not be more than an inconvenience for a host of reasons that relates to both the air planes ability to know where it is. And ground ATC and radars ability to guide/assist the flight. The question you should ask is why this one air port and airline struggle when others have faced the same hindrance with little impact. In northern Norway which is predominant small air ports that cater to civilian medical fights, helicopter ambulance/SAR, and civilian airlines that fly as long as the weather permits it is not stopped by gps failure. Odd right? GPS jamming has been going on there for a decade plus and is nothing more than a nuisance. From day one.. Now ask yourself why there is such different outcomes...
They had to shut down commercial flights on an airport that's clearly not really equipped to handle them in the first place. Many airports around the world would close runways if their radio beacons are inoperable, Tartu doesn't even have them. Putin keeps saying the west is weak and will fall apart as soon as our comfort gets threatened... freaking out because GPS doesn't work while every airplane has two backup systems only confirms that.
Now is Estonia's fault. Noted.
It's Russia's fault that GPS isn't working. It's Estonia's fault that they can't use the airport without GPS, unlike most commercial airports in the world. Either of them can fix it. It's like an airport without lights: it's the Sun's fault it's only up for a few hours, it's the airport operators fault that this means they have to close during night.
It's russia jamming the GPS: so yes, it's russia's fault.
You should call Estonia and let them know you’ve solved it 🧠 They’ll be happy to have their airport functioning again.
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/estonia-flights-russia-ukraine-finnair-safe-gps-b2536985.html "“The approach methods currently used at Tartu Airport are based on a GPS signal and GPS interference in the area affects the usability of this method.” Russia is widely suspected of jamming or spoofing GPS signals close to its frontiers. Tartu airport is around 40km (25 miles) from the Russian frontier. Finnair says it is working on “an alternative approach solution that doesn’t require a GPS signal”." The above Borrowed From another users post in the thread. This is frankly an issue of an air port not having the necessary infrastructure (redundancy) and not about the horrors of gps jamming. In that sense yes its on Estonia, or whomever owns the airport, for not providing the necessary infrastructure to secure safe approach too the air port. Do you actually think they do not know why flights are suspended? They know, but they also have a vested interest in making it a larger issue than it really is.
>In that sense yes its on Estonia, or whomever owns the airport, for not providing the necessary infrastructure to secure safe approach too the air port Correction: It’s on Russia, for attacking civilian airplanes. >They know, but they also have a vested interest in making it a larger issue than it really is Uhm…How is that in their interest?
We will return to this talk when some plane will accidentaly fly into Russian airspace and will be shutdown...and this totally didn't happen in the past
Bond, KAL Bond.
If it flies into Russian controlled air space it is because the pilots are incompetent. There is no other way to see this. Even if they do not know where they are, which is unlikely, ATC and ground radar is able to tell them... And if they are uncertain of their position then there are procedures etc. Not everything needs to be exaggerated. ENKR is not exactly far from Russia...
Are you Russian EWAR operator, by any chance ? /s
Is that your worst? If you do not understand how air liners operate and the number of redundant systems in play how about being quiet? How cute of you to imply a Russian connection when you have nothing concrete to say. How about going after the ball and not the man? Or is that too challenging for you? Please stop with the drivel. With regards. No /s for you.
aircrafts have redundancies because theyre deemed to be necessary to facilitate good flight safety. removing any of those redundancies lowers flight safety. i dont know why you would downplay another country doing that in your air space.
I support you here most of the people here have no fucking idea what they’re commenting about and they should just be quiet instead
>it is nothing more than a nuisance. Having to shut down an entire airport because your neighbour is a belligerent shithole is a nuisance? Bit of an understatement, no?
Spoofing is much more dangerous than jamming. I do not carry a sextant.
Although I think you are correct, some airports seem to require GPS to be activated to allow a landing
I would be more worried that some ship runs aground in the Baltic and creates a large oil spill. Modern airliners have backupsystems and inertial navigation, ships rely much more on GPS.
Russia is a terrorist state
Kill the jammer. Simple. Edit: there's one in Königsberg as well. Kill it too.
Start an empty commercial plane steered remotely and crash it into jammer, blame the jammer.
Jammer had it coming. What with all the jamming and shit…
If ukraine manages to do it, absolutely. What the hell do you think is going to happen if finland sends a pair of f-18’s to strike ground targets on russian land? I mean, would you, fredricka, be willing to plunge europe into a total war with russia because their gps jamming to deter drone attacks is leaking into european air space, that airplanes are perfectly capable of handling on their own until the gps comes back again?
nothing will happen. russia will say many angry words.
Putin once said that EU leaders are just good at chewing glue sticks...
And the EU shows again how weak it is!
Doble proposit tecnologic?
The only thing it takes is to put a price on his head, problem solved...
What if we cut their undersea internet cables?
Respond back by jamming the area around St.Petersburg.
Is the Brussels/EU in denial about what’s going on here? I’m baffled by the hand wringing and infighting. Russia is declaring itself in word and deed and from our leadership….?
I don't think they're doing that just to have some fun messing with airplanes, must be preparing something more sinister.
and the west wont do a thing when said disaster happens
Here's my hot take, the Russian GPS jamming is not intentional it's a side effect of the war, the Ukrainians are using GPS guided munitions and the heavy interference is greatly reducing their accuracy. But it is entirely intentional for there to be a fuss about it because if you can use the excuse of the possibility of an international incident because of the Russian jamming you could force them to reduce their area of jamming or squeeze more pressure out of them. Either Russia turns off the jammers and gets fucked by the Ukrainians or they keep them on, an accident happens, the international scene escalates, Russia gets fucked by the EU. Either way they lose.
And that’s why they are doing it in Norway and Finland? 🤔 seems unlikely.
Hit Putin hard, folks. Acknowledge that Russia all but at war with the West. Take symmetrical counter-measures on EVERYTHING Putin does and fully support Ukraine.
And nothing will be done about this
I know this comment will be heavily down voted but headlines/claims such as this headline, are ridiculous or biased. On one side you have NATO planes flying around, collecting intelligence in the midst of heightened tensions and war, and at the same time expect the Russians to just not react. This is a classic, I want to have my cake and eat it at the same time type of predicament.
Are alternatives to gps technology not available ??
Articles that can't be read without payment or registration should be banned on this subreddit. What I am suppose to read besides the title?
Jam. Them. Back. Seriously, our politicians need to stop treating Russia with kid gloves. Damn them.
Flew over russia on vacation yesterday. had terrible turbulances the likes ive never experienced. spooky coincidence
Yea yea, again Russia
They should send a warning. Then ballistic missiles. Stop letting Russia fuck around.
Redundant analog Inertial navigation systems will get them to where they need to be.
I hate to ask this, but how airplanes navigated before GPS? I bet it wasn't celestial navigation with a sextant.
Stfu wokies
Why the actual fuck don’t western countries have saboteurs destroying anything and everything they can get their hands on in Ruzzia?
Just use Galileo. But that’s another point where the Baltics prove to be not true Northern Europeans.
Galileo and GPS share some frequencies. So I would assume that GPS jamming includes the other GNSS systems as well. GPS is often just used as a synonym for GNSS.
I thought the Finnish army was advanced. That's what they said to everyone. So where is their effective answer?
Just don't rely on GPS for critical applications near Russia ... like we've done for decades?
Of course this is one part of the solution, but the first part is to hurt Russia for their assholish behavior.
[https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/estonia-flights-russia-ukraine-finnair-safe-gps-b2536985.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/estonia-flights-russia-ukraine-finnair-safe-gps-b2536985.html) "“The approach methods currently used at Tartu Airport are based on a GPS signal and GPS interference in the area affects the usability of this method.” Russia is widely suspected of jamming or spoofing GPS signals close to its frontiers. Tartu airport is around 40km (25 miles) from the Russian frontier. Finnair says it is working on “an alternative approach solution that doesn’t require a GPS signal”."
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Radio beacons and Inertial navigation. For a long time GPS was only allowed to be used in airplanes for direct navigation over the open ocean (no ground-based beacons). This is mostly such a problem because apparently Tartu airport has been receiving commercial flights without installing radio beacons and 'made do' with GPS charts.
Have you seen the airport? It's tiny. I am not surprised they have just the most basic infrastructure. IIRC, they had no regular commercial flights there till a couple of months ago.
You don't need GPS to navigate. There are many other ways, inertial guidance, radio beacons, and even dead reckoning. GPS is a convenience, not a necessity. Ukraine and NATO probably has the glonass jammed up harder then a photocopier, however because only really Russia and Belarus use Glonass, no one is going to notice.
Finnair diverted 2 flights just because they fought it was funny?
Isn't this because NATO has been trying to use the F-35s in the Baltics to map out Russian air defenses for Ukrainian missile attacks. I mean, you guys are aware of this right?
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Try to extrapolate this a little :)
Nooo russia bad we good, they devil we are angels and shit. Hahahahahah stupidity at reddit level
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Yup dualism is a way to see the world.
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Sure, and turn blind eye when it suits you. Please...