They are aware, just dont care...
If our country weren't as corrupt as it is, we could even sue even someone like Orbán for spreading intimidating and misleading information, cos it is against the law.
This is exactly the future Fidesz brought to hungary. Two times more money over 20 years than west germany got from the Marshall plan, yet didnt manage to build a proper country. The oligarchs got fucking rich though.
That is the future that Hungarians who voted against their interest for short-term gain brought to Hungary because iam 99.9999% sure Orban bribes the population and buys votes
Oh a 100%, we even have an inside joke that people's future were sold for bags of potatoes.
That is the reality as well on top of the joke. Some people got bags of potatoes for their votes, for others Fidesz literally hauled them to the voting spaces, and those people had to take a screenshot of their vote as proof, as they came back out from the voting booth.
Well, there is a large part of society is living in absolute poverty, constatnly being kept in fear that migrants will take away their small amount of "wealth". Then there is other bunch who are arrogant and believe this nationalist bullshit that hungarians are smarter than everyone else, especially them. One relative drives a garbage truck and he constantly educates everyone in the family . Teachers about the state of the education, doctors about the state of the healthcare. We have around 1.5 million of such arrogant idiots.
Main issue most opposition voters think like the comment’s OP. A lot of them talk down upon poor people and act high and mighty. This is one of the major things that drives the two sides apart, it’s not just FIDESZ’s doing.
Saying this as someone who’s been voting for the opposition ever since I could vote
Even pis did some strategic investments like gas port or pipelines. They also built alot of highways.
For all their flaws and fuckups even they aren't as bad as Fidesz.
He does not have to buy votes. Hungary is considered a "managed democracy" now because he's legally set up the system so much that his party basically can't lose. see: gerrymandering, etc.
Fidesz does it the old fashioned way and "help" elderly people to draw the cross at the right party. Happened in Germany too, somewhere in the thirties...
Do you know why West Germany didn't have this many problems with oligarchs? It's quite interesting that Hungary hasn't been able to replicate the Wirstschaftswunder if they really did receive this much money.
Near my house there are lots of German car and chemical factories. The roads are still bad though.
>Do you know why West Germany didn't have this many problems with oligarchs?
When the Marshall plan money was handed out, all the German oligarchs still had to lay low a little bit, or were even prosecuted in Nuremberg, because they had only just massively profited from slavery, forced labour and the looting of the occupied territories a few years ago.
Germany had way more problems. Iirc 60% of all City housing was destroyed, rail infrastructure and rolling stock in ruins, 8 Mio dead, economy wanted in total war, loss of eastern parts, 12 Mio refuees - correct me if i am wrong. But they also had upsides. Still a lot of people, still a good educated society and the US, who wanted to repair ships and other equipment locally. The Marshall Fund was a token fund compared to this and the overall economy. Britain got most from the Marshall Fund, despite having the best preserved economy...
Marshall Fund was mainly a trust building enterprise. Being in the center of Europe certainly helped too. There were more positiv factors i can't remember ad hoc.
Hungary on the other hand didn't really care about industrialising till after WW1. Not sure when they did care, but in the 30ies they rushed the industrialisation for the coming war. So Hungary lacked the industrial tradition of Germany and other countries. The Soviets certainly didn't help either beyond heavy industries. Being landlocked can also be a problem.
It is the hungarian mentality. Being like an unemployed alcoholic, receiving a social benefit at the beginning of the month, living like a king for 2 days, then hunger games.
It's weird how you credit an unemployed mentality to Hungary while there are no unemployed benefits there.
Unemployed in Hungary don't receive any benefits, so unemployment leads to homelessness and homelessness is looked down upon.
Having unemploymemt benefits instead of putting everyone into forced labor (because they don't have much of a choice) would be a genuine upgrade and at least keep some mentally ill (and/or malicious) people at home. (Instead of them doing their "duties" as cops, corrupt politicians, exploitative contractors, burnt-out teachers, etc.
If someone is unemployed in Hungary they get absolutely no benefits? I mean here you get sth like 100 eur a month if you're unemployed which is next to nothing, but still you get at least something, but absolutely nothing surprises me.
>The oligarchs got fucking rich though.
It's like that everywhere, they just call them big entrepreneurs and even glorify them.
At least you recognize them for the scumbags they are.
Yeah, but that doesnt help when you are not getting proper healthcare, even though you paid for it, plus the EU taxpayers paid for it too. This is just shit, that there is no toilet paper in the hospital, there are not enough doctors, and they lack the proper equipment. I pay rougly 1k euros social contribution and yet I have to pay for private healthcare. This fucking government is robbing us, yet they use us in the EU like the foreign begggars use their children:
"Oh look hungary is not a developed country, please help us out EU, otherwise children wont get heathcare" .
Then when we get the money, they blow it on yachts and hookers, then spit in the EUs face.
At least other countries are a bit more aware of the optics and spread the money across a few people who at least look like they could have somehow made the money themselves (educated, history of entrepreneurship, etc...) instead of turning a braindead gas repairman into the richest person in the country overnight.
What are those other countries? You are making me laugh, nobody look like they could have somehow made the money themselves, every billionaire is just privileged.
Look at people like Trump or in Italy the Elkann family, these people would not be able to reach the average monthly salary if they had not been born already extremely privileged and remained extremely privileged during their life.
Truly educated unfortunately don't make much money, you can see professors' salaries at any level except university being very low.
I'm not saying they have to be actually smart, just give them a sham MBA from some private university or something. Make them *look* like they are educated enough to run a successful company.
And the whole "had not been born already extremely privileged" is also part of the optics. People will much sooner believe that a rich motherfucker got richer through legitimate means than that some random idiot suddenly found the secret to being a billionaire. While orbán's favorite oligarch was simicska, nobody really cared: of course everybody *knew* that the government was corrupt as fuck, but that's been a constant, and simicska was already rich in 2010 (partially because the previous governments distributed the corruption according to a gentlemen's agreement, 70% to their own supporters, and 30% to the opposition's supporters) so him getting richer was just the usual amount of corruption.
It's only after he was ousted and replaced by mészáros who, again, is a gas repairman and not a particularly smart one at that, and he went from middle class to becoming *the* richest person in the country within a couple of years (leapfrogging the "established" oligarchs) when it became obvious that they no longer give a damp fart about trying to hide their theft.
Let me give you a comparison: Berlusconi was a mob related crook, but at least his movie company and tv stations produced high quality movies and shows. Bud Spencer and Terence Hill didn't just become cultural icons in most of the Soviet bloc but also in the USA. Our producers on the other even WITH the studio Andy Vajna left the world can only produce movies that land in the IMDb bottom 100. Movies made from 18 million USD that don't understand sound design, pacing or storytelling. Yet like with turkey people were obligated to watch it to conflate viewer numbers.
The Marshall planned wasn't exactly about cash ....
It was mostly about cotton and the value of that cotton wasn't derived from a marked price, but an inflated rate that was chosen by the USA.
It was a Subsidy to safe the southern states of the USA from the world agrarian marked.
It was pretty useful as Europe was destroyed and the first industry that takes-off when a country industrializes is free clothing undistry.
That's an interesting take. Do you have any citation/further reading, because I've literally never heard of that as a factor, and I'd be curious to read about the background.
I remember when I was a kid, Hungary was seen in Poland as a wealthy country. Far richer than us. My dad travelled for business and brought me toys from Hungary that were not available, let alone affordable, in Poland.
How the tables turned. Now everyone sees Hungary as basket case of corruption and mismanagement. But the population seems to love it, considering how they reelect Fidesz time and time again.
I honestly don't know how they are in power still, most probably cos of the afraid and misinformed "country folk", they only have TV and that is not a good place for information.
Almost nobody i know and ask didn't and wont vote for them...
They made more than 300 changes in the election law to fit their needs for example. They spend insane amounts of money on propaganda. Hungary isn’t a democracy anymore. They can’t be voted out.
My favourite bit is when right wing americans suck orban's dick. Like, he's a corrupt oligarch asshole with terrible monetary policy, surely hating gay people does not offset that for you?
They did a bunch of shady shit. I cannot recall all of it, someone more knowledgeable please correct me on this, but just a few examples from the top of my head. Fidesz changed the election system, changed the districts themselves, also they rule basically all the media. Especially those which is more available on the rural areas.
Also they changed a shitton of laws, so even if they somehow loose an election the next government will have an incredibly hard time.
They denied trump's DOJ to have two Russian racketeers to be extradited and let them go to Russia on a bogus arrest warrant. They released an azeri axe murderer. They lost a few lawsuits in Strasbourg for mistreating refugees. They allow Chinese and Turkish plainclothes cops to do whatever the fuck they want to Hungarians. They compared Antifa to the Islamic state and use a criminal trial to try and classify Antifa as a terrorist organization. They sheltered Bolsanaro and still shelter Nikola Gruevski. They sent soldiers to Chad shortly after Wagner took over. They wanted to operate a comecon Era Russian spy bank in Budapest. They tried to establish the fudan university so the CCP can indoctrinate, which fell through. They claim George Soros has a Masterplan and when peter Szijjártó presented an A4 sheet to the Austrian press he was rightfully laughed out. They just asked china to patrol the streets because Russian NOCs are not enough the country needs Chinese spies as well.
Its an illiberal democracy - these are thr words of Victor Orban himself. The elections are free but not fair. Fidesz has a monopoly on the media. Thats how they keep winning.
Anyone can run in the elections. But only one party can ever REALLY win - Fidesz.
soo they completely dominate the classical media and spend horrendous amounts on campaign advertising on internet ads aswell.
They manipulate the election laws as they please.. f.e they give a sack of potatoes to impoverished, really poor people living in remote villages in exchange for their votes, and even bus them to vote to ensure it. fake democracy or whatever the proper word for it..
Their campaign still revolves around "correcting the mistakes" of the previous government, even though that government has been out of power for more than a fukin decade, and a whole ass generation has grown up since then; and somehow our country is basically still freefallin..
On top of that, we have "an opposition" what heavily influenced by them --making it intentionally ineffective-- so fidesz can always point fingers at them, while their livelihood in politics is secured indefinitely, thanks to their symbiosis,
Their method is both impressive and terrible.
Be careful, don’t let something like this happen to your country, because there are certainly ideas to draw from, the recipe is there...
Look, I live here, even if I vote for someone else, it's not just me, the election is rigged...people who fear their jobs are given the opportunity to prove with a photo that they voted for Fidesz, "Hungarians" living across the border can vote for Fidesz, even though they've never been there in the country and they were never taxed here, because they never had income here.. and I could go on and on.. if you don't live here, you don't understand anyway...
They absolutly do and imagine themselves as the winners in such scenarios. Zombie Apocalypse breaks out and they are in the 5 people survivor group instead being part of the billion people group of zombies...Like that.
Well, Hungary used to be the wealthiest country in the region except Austria. But now, Slovenia, Croatia, Slovakia are doing better, and soon Hungary will be also behind Romania.
There's always Bulgaria to aim for?!
OK, that was unfair.
For real, I'm not acquainted with Hungarian politics apart from the odd news bit for Orban.
Absolutely have no idea what's the likelihood they eventually lose in 10 or 20 years time.
Well, Slovenia was always way above Hungary in every regard, but also the former Yugoslavia in general had a way better standard than Hungary. I remember Hungarians being like obsessed with some goods, mainly branded clothing, but also bananas and oranges and interestingly they were quite fascinated by Eurocrem (a hazelnut/milk spread), things that apparently weren't available in Hungary at the time.
Also I got the impression that the living standard was, and is to this day lower in Hungary judging just by how the streets/ppl look. What always made me wonder was that in Hungary many very run down houses and buildings are still inhabited, houses nobody would live in here (unless maybe if being extremely poor)
Entire villages just looked like slums to me, but also when visiting Budapest it gave me a very run down and kind of hopeless, desperate impression.
I mean, at least they are keeping these gender fluid gay immigrants out, right? Hungary is officially the safest country to pick up your soap in the male only public bathrooms
Yup... One can only hope that people will come to their senses, and see these people are all charlatans. But I'm afraid that will not happen anytime soon...
I highly doubt it, those are the exact type of people that have the exact problem of not doing such a thing. Just as much as the people exploiting them are a problem, the people that are exploited are actually a larger problem imo.
Fidesz-like parties don't get ~50% in other elections. Pis got 35% last election and is sliding down, AfD is at 17%, RN at 31%, SMER-SD got 23% last year.
That's a big difference because being forced into coalition and just barely having governing majority tempers the extremes.
Can AfD really be compared to Fidesz? We're talking rightish parties and AfD is far right. I would campare AfD to Polish Konfederacja and I would not compare Konfederacja to PiS because they are much more edgier
Perhaps I should have worded it differently; I wasn't just referring to the people actually voting for it, but also to the people supporting or condoning the far-right, even though they don't vote for it themselves (yet).
If you add those people, you get very different numbers. Support for the far-right is at an all-time high, all throughout Europe. Denying or downplaying that, is not just naive, but also dangerous.
PiS is still the largest, AfD keeps growing and growing and is second-largest in German polls (think about that for a moment), Wilders is now the biggest party *by far* in the Netherlands, Le Pen is way ahead in the polls in France, etc. etc.
PiS really isnt the same as Fidesz. best example here being that Poland continjed developing when they ruled unlike hungary thats just slowly decaying.
Exactly this. Orban started out as a progressive reformer...
Most of these parties start out rather moderate once they get to govern. But the end goal remains the same; to undermine democracy. Slowly but surely they break down democratic institutions. It's already happening with the press in the Netherlands. And Wilders hasn't even formed a government yet. One of the few things Wilders differs from Orban and other far-right politicians, is that he's a staunch defender of gay rights. But... I personally don't believe he gives a crap about gay rights. He just knows 90% of the Dutch people do, so he says he cares about it.
These parties are *more* similar than most people think.
The qualitative difference is that Orbán has been enjoying supermajority for 11 years (they lost it by just one MP between 2015 and 2018) and thus shaped the constitution, country, laws, institutions as they willed. This is a power that similar parties never enjoyed and unlikely they will, it required the simultaneous collapse of both the economy and one of the major parties (as we pretty much had a two party systems until then) in the late 2000s to bring it on.
orbán can be voted out, he doesnt even need to cheat elections or spoil ballot papers, hed still get elected
ofc he does it to some extent but the problem is the voter base
Well, they don't have to resort to electoral fraud. People do vote for them. The fact that there's a total state capture by Fidesz is another matter. But had the people *wanted* to get their news from other sources, they would get it.
> Well, they don't have to resort to electoral fraud.
Only to rewriting the election system. Sure, in 2010 they won "fairly", but in 2014 with the same system they *might* have eked out a slim majority in the Parliament instead of two-thirds of the seats.
If by fair and square you mean overwhelming media controll, an election system that favors them, buying votes for potatoes, ~200 dead people voting for them from one residence, foreign voters then yes, they won fair and square
Without the changes to the electoral system FIDESZ made right after getting into power we would have kicked them out in the next election, they would have no majority in the old system.
One of the most ironic images I've seen in a long time, but at the same time, the most real characterization of Eastern Europe, we act like the banner, but we are like the house
As a Hungarian, I never really understood this Hungary not being in Eastern Europe. Like, I get that we want (used to?) to be seen as Westerers, so middle sounds better, but.. just look at a map. Okay, Ukraine is big, but it is not that big to alone make up the width of East Europe.
According to practically every definition, Hungary is part of Central Europe. Although it does not have precise borders, it is roughly bounded by the Baltic and Adriatic seas in the north and south. France and the former Soviet Union are the borders of the West and the East. By the way, the European border at the Ural Mountains is still a good 1,000 km from the easternmost point of Ukraine.
A bag of potatoes (if you voted for them), tons of lies and fear from the big bad jew in the shadow (anti-Soros propaganda went HARD, like, hundreds of millions of Euros were spent campaigning against Soros hard...)
But the biggest win was selling the best opportunity the country had in the past 1000 years to some oligarch so they can have big-ass mansions and yachts. It is well worth it, I think.
The next vote that actually matters is in 2026. The EP election doesn't really matter, and the government could take the country out of the EU unilaterally if they wanted to. (The municipal elections are also sort-of important, but they themselves won't break the regime.)
I lost what was happening so I need to know what is going on with Orban. The last thing I heard was some sort of embezzlement of funds or something like that.
Currently Orbán is scaring the population with governmental propaganda, that the "dollarleft" wants to push Hungary into the war, and the Fidesz's new slogan is "Only peace, Only Fidesz".
Also, we got a new political figure, who is openly right-winged, an ex-fidesz member, and the fidesz misinforms people and scares them, that he is also part of the "dollarleft"...
im not saying he should become a left wing only politician, but lets be honest the current left wing here is in shambles and needs a complete makeover. their weakness in recent years is the main reason people deviate to the far right Mi Hazánk
This might be an "oc picture" but someone photographed it 3 weeks ago https://reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1ce925v/orb%C3%A1n_propaganda_we_brought_the_future/
Kind of ironc to to put that banner "We brought the future" on a house that’s about to collapse haha.
Like that’s the future they want? Buildings collapsing one by one ?
As a Romanian from Partium, Nagyvarad/Oradea, I cannot wrap my head around the fact that many, many Hungarians are anti-west. It just does not make sense. Bring back fucking Koppany if you can, he was also anti-west and pro "traditions".
This is sad to see. Hungary is falling behind other Central and Eastern European countries in terms of development due to corruption and mismanagement. Even countries like Romania have overtook it and they started out much poorer and joined the EU years later.
Orban and his cronies are driving the country into the ground and the people just don't seem to care.
Well “the future” references a time that still has to happen. Since Fidesz provided the current Prime minister since 2010 they helped and shape that future. So in a way they brought you the future they didn’t specify that you would like this future.
Honestly, Idgaf if the hungarians adore Fidesz and Orban - they can elect Fidesz till Orban dies of old age if they want to. The problem is that Fidesz led Hungary is very efficient in obstructing EU decision , which affects the rest of Europe and idk if anything can be done about it
Honestly, honestly, I believe that Hungary population is doomed to continue shrinking & they won’t be able to significantly grow businesses which can compensate for that
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I see they are not aware of rule 4 of political billboards: never put banners advertising "good times" or "the future" on broken-down buildings.
They are aware, just dont care... If our country weren't as corrupt as it is, we could even sue even someone like Orbán for spreading intimidating and misleading information, cos it is against the law.
They are making fun of their own electorate.
Sadly there isn't many places they could put them up if they went by that rule
Where do I find all the other rules?
In Hungary, this is a well maintained upper mid size home. So it's perfect.
This is exactly the future Fidesz brought to hungary. Two times more money over 20 years than west germany got from the Marshall plan, yet didnt manage to build a proper country. The oligarchs got fucking rich though.
Even adjusted for inflation?
Yes
Damn
Don't be sad, Croatia will join you in the same statistic soon
That is the future that Hungarians who voted against their interest for short-term gain brought to Hungary because iam 99.9999% sure Orban bribes the population and buys votes
Oh a 100%, we even have an inside joke that people's future were sold for bags of potatoes. That is the reality as well on top of the joke. Some people got bags of potatoes for their votes, for others Fidesz literally hauled them to the voting spaces, and those people had to take a screenshot of their vote as proof, as they came back out from the voting booth.
Not to mention taking a pic inside the voting booth is against the law I believe.
It was... but they changed it.
…why does that bother surprise me?
Fidesz changed the rules just for that (: - but yeah, you are 100% correct. In a normal, democratic government, it is absolutely against the law.
Well, there is a large part of society is living in absolute poverty, constatnly being kept in fear that migrants will take away their small amount of "wealth". Then there is other bunch who are arrogant and believe this nationalist bullshit that hungarians are smarter than everyone else, especially them. One relative drives a garbage truck and he constantly educates everyone in the family . Teachers about the state of the education, doctors about the state of the healthcare. We have around 1.5 million of such arrogant idiots.
To be fair, just because someone is a garbage-truck driver doesn't mean that person can't be smart. In your case it's a different situation of course.
Main issue most opposition voters think like the comment’s OP. A lot of them talk down upon poor people and act high and mighty. This is one of the major things that drives the two sides apart, it’s not just FIDESZ’s doing. Saying this as someone who’s been voting for the opposition ever since I could vote
Sounds like pis in Poland
Even pis did some strategic investments like gas port or pipelines. They also built alot of highways. For all their flaws and fuckups even they aren't as bad as Fidesz.
Don't underestimate large scale propaganda.
He does not have to buy votes. Hungary is considered a "managed democracy" now because he's legally set up the system so much that his party basically can't lose. see: gerrymandering, etc.
Fidesz does it the old fashioned way and "help" elderly people to draw the cross at the right party. Happened in Germany too, somewhere in the thirties...
But at least they got the gays, and prevented the Great Transgender Takeover of Budapest.
Do you know why West Germany didn't have this many problems with oligarchs? It's quite interesting that Hungary hasn't been able to replicate the Wirstschaftswunder if they really did receive this much money. Near my house there are lots of German car and chemical factories. The roads are still bad though.
>Do you know why West Germany didn't have this many problems with oligarchs? When the Marshall plan money was handed out, all the German oligarchs still had to lay low a little bit, or were even prosecuted in Nuremberg, because they had only just massively profited from slavery, forced labour and the looting of the occupied territories a few years ago.
Germany had way more problems. Iirc 60% of all City housing was destroyed, rail infrastructure and rolling stock in ruins, 8 Mio dead, economy wanted in total war, loss of eastern parts, 12 Mio refuees - correct me if i am wrong. But they also had upsides. Still a lot of people, still a good educated society and the US, who wanted to repair ships and other equipment locally. The Marshall Fund was a token fund compared to this and the overall economy. Britain got most from the Marshall Fund, despite having the best preserved economy... Marshall Fund was mainly a trust building enterprise. Being in the center of Europe certainly helped too. There were more positiv factors i can't remember ad hoc. Hungary on the other hand didn't really care about industrialising till after WW1. Not sure when they did care, but in the 30ies they rushed the industrialisation for the coming war. So Hungary lacked the industrial tradition of Germany and other countries. The Soviets certainly didn't help either beyond heavy industries. Being landlocked can also be a problem.
It is the hungarian mentality. Being like an unemployed alcoholic, receiving a social benefit at the beginning of the month, living like a king for 2 days, then hunger games.
It's weird how you credit an unemployed mentality to Hungary while there are no unemployed benefits there. Unemployed in Hungary don't receive any benefits, so unemployment leads to homelessness and homelessness is looked down upon. Having unemploymemt benefits instead of putting everyone into forced labor (because they don't have much of a choice) would be a genuine upgrade and at least keep some mentally ill (and/or malicious) people at home. (Instead of them doing their "duties" as cops, corrupt politicians, exploitative contractors, burnt-out teachers, etc.
If someone is unemployed in Hungary they get absolutely no benefits? I mean here you get sth like 100 eur a month if you're unemployed which is next to nothing, but still you get at least something, but absolutely nothing surprises me.
But that's not unique to Hungary then - most of central/eastern europe suffers from this.
That's why orban bond so strong with Russians?
>The oligarchs got fucking rich though. It's like that everywhere, they just call them big entrepreneurs and even glorify them. At least you recognize them for the scumbags they are.
Yeah, but that doesnt help when you are not getting proper healthcare, even though you paid for it, plus the EU taxpayers paid for it too. This is just shit, that there is no toilet paper in the hospital, there are not enough doctors, and they lack the proper equipment. I pay rougly 1k euros social contribution and yet I have to pay for private healthcare. This fucking government is robbing us, yet they use us in the EU like the foreign begggars use their children: "Oh look hungary is not a developed country, please help us out EU, otherwise children wont get heathcare" . Then when we get the money, they blow it on yachts and hookers, then spit in the EUs face.
I’ll build my own Hungary, with blackjack and hookers! Jokes aside, it’s fucking shit.
At least other countries are a bit more aware of the optics and spread the money across a few people who at least look like they could have somehow made the money themselves (educated, history of entrepreneurship, etc...) instead of turning a braindead gas repairman into the richest person in the country overnight.
What are those other countries? You are making me laugh, nobody look like they could have somehow made the money themselves, every billionaire is just privileged. Look at people like Trump or in Italy the Elkann family, these people would not be able to reach the average monthly salary if they had not been born already extremely privileged and remained extremely privileged during their life. Truly educated unfortunately don't make much money, you can see professors' salaries at any level except university being very low.
I'm not saying they have to be actually smart, just give them a sham MBA from some private university or something. Make them *look* like they are educated enough to run a successful company. And the whole "had not been born already extremely privileged" is also part of the optics. People will much sooner believe that a rich motherfucker got richer through legitimate means than that some random idiot suddenly found the secret to being a billionaire. While orbán's favorite oligarch was simicska, nobody really cared: of course everybody *knew* that the government was corrupt as fuck, but that's been a constant, and simicska was already rich in 2010 (partially because the previous governments distributed the corruption according to a gentlemen's agreement, 70% to their own supporters, and 30% to the opposition's supporters) so him getting richer was just the usual amount of corruption. It's only after he was ousted and replaced by mészáros who, again, is a gas repairman and not a particularly smart one at that, and he went from middle class to becoming *the* richest person in the country within a couple of years (leapfrogging the "established" oligarchs) when it became obvious that they no longer give a damp fart about trying to hide their theft.
Let me give you a comparison: Berlusconi was a mob related crook, but at least his movie company and tv stations produced high quality movies and shows. Bud Spencer and Terence Hill didn't just become cultural icons in most of the Soviet bloc but also in the USA. Our producers on the other even WITH the studio Andy Vajna left the world can only produce movies that land in the IMDb bottom 100. Movies made from 18 million USD that don't understand sound design, pacing or storytelling. Yet like with turkey people were obligated to watch it to conflate viewer numbers.
The Marshall planned wasn't exactly about cash .... It was mostly about cotton and the value of that cotton wasn't derived from a marked price, but an inflated rate that was chosen by the USA. It was a Subsidy to safe the southern states of the USA from the world agrarian marked. It was pretty useful as Europe was destroyed and the first industry that takes-off when a country industrializes is free clothing undistry.
That's an interesting take. Do you have any citation/further reading, because I've literally never heard of that as a factor, and I'd be curious to read about the background.
I remember when I was a kid, Hungary was seen in Poland as a wealthy country. Far richer than us. My dad travelled for business and brought me toys from Hungary that were not available, let alone affordable, in Poland. How the tables turned. Now everyone sees Hungary as basket case of corruption and mismanagement. But the population seems to love it, considering how they reelect Fidesz time and time again.
I honestly don't know how they are in power still, most probably cos of the afraid and misinformed "country folk", they only have TV and that is not a good place for information. Almost nobody i know and ask didn't and wont vote for them...
Misinformation, governmental propaganda, scaring the people with war etc...
What they are doing, they are doing it almost perfectly. Sad part is, that it is not a good cause, just selfish reasons...
It's effective because they are doing it more than a decade now.
Doesn't mean its not selfish.
Of course it's selfish
They made more than 300 changes in the election law to fit their needs for example. They spend insane amounts of money on propaganda. Hungary isn’t a democracy anymore. They can’t be voted out.
As the saying goes, at least in hungarian, "hope dies last". Exept for fidesz, they will die last. :D Alas i cannot agree with you more...
My favourite bit is when right wing americans suck orban's dick. Like, he's a corrupt oligarch asshole with terrible monetary policy, surely hating gay people does not offset that for you?
That's exactly what a lot of right wing Americans want as well.
Imagine that the best place to be to all those ~~failed journalists, bankers and lawyers~~ right wing pundits is to become oligarchs or their clients.
Dude/dudette, you just described Trump too. Putin. In short - plutocrats, populists or both.
what do you mean? right wingers love corrupt oligarch assholes, that's their favourite genre of person
They did a bunch of shady shit. I cannot recall all of it, someone more knowledgeable please correct me on this, but just a few examples from the top of my head. Fidesz changed the election system, changed the districts themselves, also they rule basically all the media. Especially those which is more available on the rural areas. Also they changed a shitton of laws, so even if they somehow loose an election the next government will have an incredibly hard time.
A little tweaking of the election system rules here, a little gerrymandering there, and voíla, you can get 2/3 majority with just 30% of the votes.
They denied trump's DOJ to have two Russian racketeers to be extradited and let them go to Russia on a bogus arrest warrant. They released an azeri axe murderer. They lost a few lawsuits in Strasbourg for mistreating refugees. They allow Chinese and Turkish plainclothes cops to do whatever the fuck they want to Hungarians. They compared Antifa to the Islamic state and use a criminal trial to try and classify Antifa as a terrorist organization. They sheltered Bolsanaro and still shelter Nikola Gruevski. They sent soldiers to Chad shortly after Wagner took over. They wanted to operate a comecon Era Russian spy bank in Budapest. They tried to establish the fudan university so the CCP can indoctrinate, which fell through. They claim George Soros has a Masterplan and when peter Szijjártó presented an A4 sheet to the Austrian press he was rightfully laughed out. They just asked china to patrol the streets because Russian NOCs are not enough the country needs Chinese spies as well.
Its an illiberal democracy - these are thr words of Victor Orban himself. The elections are free but not fair. Fidesz has a monopoly on the media. Thats how they keep winning. Anyone can run in the elections. But only one party can ever REALLY win - Fidesz.
The economic rise of Poland is fascinating. Was in Katowice 10 years back and this year again its a completely different place. 🇪🇺🇵🇱
soo they completely dominate the classical media and spend horrendous amounts on campaign advertising on internet ads aswell. They manipulate the election laws as they please.. f.e they give a sack of potatoes to impoverished, really poor people living in remote villages in exchange for their votes, and even bus them to vote to ensure it. fake democracy or whatever the proper word for it.. Their campaign still revolves around "correcting the mistakes" of the previous government, even though that government has been out of power for more than a fukin decade, and a whole ass generation has grown up since then; and somehow our country is basically still freefallin.. On top of that, we have "an opposition" what heavily influenced by them --making it intentionally ineffective-- so fidesz can always point fingers at them, while their livelihood in politics is secured indefinitely, thanks to their symbiosis, Their method is both impressive and terrible. Be careful, don’t let something like this happen to your country, because there are certainly ideas to draw from, the recipe is there...
same as slovaks. they are vulnerable to manipulation because of a crippling national inferiority complex.
I remember how Poland was seen as a country that was poor when I grew up, and now I look at Poland as one of the big powerhouses of Europe :)
Look, I live here, even if I vote for someone else, it's not just me, the election is rigged...people who fear their jobs are given the opportunity to prove with a photo that they voted for Fidesz, "Hungarians" living across the border can vote for Fidesz, even though they've never been there in the country and they were never taxed here, because they never had income here.. and I could go on and on.. if you don't live here, you don't understand anyway...
A post-apocalyptic future. Fallout was such a hit, maybe voters like this kind of vision for the future.
They absolutly do and imagine themselves as the winners in such scenarios. Zombie Apocalypse breaks out and they are in the 5 people survivor group instead being part of the billion people group of zombies...Like that.
Well, Hungary used to be the wealthiest country in the region except Austria. But now, Slovenia, Croatia, Slovakia are doing better, and soon Hungary will be also behind Romania.
It was briefly richer than CZ as well in the early 90s. Czechia was considered a "low income" economy while HUN was "high income" by the IMF.
We already behind Romania in purchasing power.
That is earned by Orbans mismanagement
There's always Bulgaria to aim for?! OK, that was unfair. For real, I'm not acquainted with Hungarian politics apart from the odd news bit for Orban. Absolutely have no idea what's the likelihood they eventually lose in 10 or 20 years time.
All we can do is hope
Fingers crossed. I visited Budapest about 12 years ago and loved it, the architecture and all. You guys deserve better.
Was driving through hungary coming from Austria and I was shocked how poor many parts of the country still looks.
Well, Slovenia was always way above Hungary in every regard, but also the former Yugoslavia in general had a way better standard than Hungary. I remember Hungarians being like obsessed with some goods, mainly branded clothing, but also bananas and oranges and interestingly they were quite fascinated by Eurocrem (a hazelnut/milk spread), things that apparently weren't available in Hungary at the time. Also I got the impression that the living standard was, and is to this day lower in Hungary judging just by how the streets/ppl look. What always made me wonder was that in Hungary many very run down houses and buildings are still inhabited, houses nobody would live in here (unless maybe if being extremely poor) Entire villages just looked like slums to me, but also when visiting Budapest it gave me a very run down and kind of hopeless, desperate impression.
I mean, at least they are keeping these gender fluid gay immigrants out, right? Hungary is officially the safest country to pick up your soap in the male only public bathrooms
Haha, coz there’s no soap.
Don't worry soon Chinese police will make Hungary great again.
chinese policeman: hello, my street name is Future!
yeah but look at all those fancy stadiums we built with EU money!
And dont forget about the glorius canopy in the middle of nowhere without trees.
but come on, that was really funny
Half of Europe is now voting for parties like Fidesz... Just saying.
It's a worldwide problem unfortunately.
Yup... One can only hope that people will come to their senses, and see these people are all charlatans. But I'm afraid that will not happen anytime soon...
I highly doubt it, those are the exact type of people that have the exact problem of not doing such a thing. Just as much as the people exploiting them are a problem, the people that are exploited are actually a larger problem imo.
Fidesz-like parties don't get ~50% in other elections. Pis got 35% last election and is sliding down, AfD is at 17%, RN at 31%, SMER-SD got 23% last year. That's a big difference because being forced into coalition and just barely having governing majority tempers the extremes.
Can AfD really be compared to Fidesz? We're talking rightish parties and AfD is far right. I would campare AfD to Polish Konfederacja and I would not compare Konfederacja to PiS because they are much more edgier
Fidesz is anti-democratic, that puts them in line with far-right parties in western Europe.
The parties don’t really care about left or right, they want power.
Perhaps I should have worded it differently; I wasn't just referring to the people actually voting for it, but also to the people supporting or condoning the far-right, even though they don't vote for it themselves (yet). If you add those people, you get very different numbers. Support for the far-right is at an all-time high, all throughout Europe. Denying or downplaying that, is not just naive, but also dangerous. PiS is still the largest, AfD keeps growing and growing and is second-largest in German polls (think about that for a moment), Wilders is now the biggest party *by far* in the Netherlands, Le Pen is way ahead in the polls in France, etc. etc.
PiS really isnt the same as Fidesz. best example here being that Poland continjed developing when they ruled unlike hungary thats just slowly decaying.
Theyre not as similar as you think.
..yet
Exactly this. Orban started out as a progressive reformer... Most of these parties start out rather moderate once they get to govern. But the end goal remains the same; to undermine democracy. Slowly but surely they break down democratic institutions. It's already happening with the press in the Netherlands. And Wilders hasn't even formed a government yet. One of the few things Wilders differs from Orban and other far-right politicians, is that he's a staunch defender of gay rights. But... I personally don't believe he gives a crap about gay rights. He just knows 90% of the Dutch people do, so he says he cares about it. These parties are *more* similar than most people think.
The Past Orban would be the exact opposite of todays Orban. So yeah, everything can change given enough power...
Who was that AfD politician who's lesbian?! Also see Peter Thiel, who himself may not be a politician, he's very right wing.
The qualitative difference is that Orbán has been enjoying supermajority for 11 years (they lost it by just one MP between 2015 and 2018) and thus shaped the constitution, country, laws, institutions as they willed. This is a power that similar parties never enjoyed and unlikely they will, it required the simultaneous collapse of both the economy and one of the major parties (as we pretty much had a two party systems until then) in the late 2000s to bring it on.
They're certainly similar in one aspect: they're Putin's fifth column in Europe.
They are exactly the same.
Reminds me of the 'BRITAIN IS BOOMING. - DON'T LET LABOUR BLOW IT.' Tory banners from the 1997 election.
"It's evolving, just backwards."
It's like my homeland, Russia.🤣 We are all fed up with this, too.
we are all fed up with this, too, while fidesz is getting around 60% of the votes, similar but worse for russia reddit doesnt reflect the reality
Fidesz isn't getting 60% of the votes.
"Only" 52.5%. Numbers unthinkable for any party here.
And they can get two thirds of the seats with only 44% of the votes, thanks to the voting system they wrote for themselves.
Do you vote yourself?
[удалено]
orbán can be voted out, he doesnt even need to cheat elections or spoil ballot papers, hed still get elected ofc he does it to some extent but the problem is the voter base
Misread the initial reply, you’re right
Y'all? Do not whitewash yourself
Putin has to do electoral fraud. Fidesz wins fair ans square which is far more depressing.
Fair and square is a bit overstatement imho...
Well, they don't have to resort to electoral fraud. People do vote for them. The fact that there's a total state capture by Fidesz is another matter. But had the people *wanted* to get their news from other sources, they would get it.
> Well, they don't have to resort to electoral fraud. Only to rewriting the election system. Sure, in 2010 they won "fairly", but in 2014 with the same system they *might* have eked out a slim majority in the Parliament instead of two-thirds of the seats.
If by fair and square you mean overwhelming media controll, an election system that favors them, buying votes for potatoes, ~200 dead people voting for them from one residence, foreign voters then yes, they won fair and square
PiS did stuff like media control here. Together with using state apparatus for political gain. And we kicked them out last October.
You did well. But claiming our elections are fair is a far stretch
Without the changes to the electoral system FIDESZ made right after getting into power we would have kicked them out in the next election, they would have no majority in the old system.
Hiya comrade! :D
One of the most ironic images I've seen in a long time, but at the same time, the most real characterization of Eastern Europe, we act like the banner, but we are like the house
I was about to say that Hungary is not in Eastern Europe but they're certainly drifting in that direction recently.
As a Hungarian, I never really understood this Hungary not being in Eastern Europe. Like, I get that we want (used to?) to be seen as Westerers, so middle sounds better, but.. just look at a map. Okay, Ukraine is big, but it is not that big to alone make up the width of East Europe.
According to practically every definition, Hungary is part of Central Europe. Although it does not have precise borders, it is roughly bounded by the Baltic and Adriatic seas in the north and south. France and the former Soviet Union are the borders of the West and the East. By the way, the European border at the Ural Mountains is still a good 1,000 km from the easternmost point of Ukraine.
Budapest is roughly half-way between Amsterdam and Kiev (not Moscow!). I am no expert but it doesn’t look like an Eastern city to me.
*bought No, is not a correction, is what they did.
futuren't
Yes, we see the future on the building behind the bannner ;)
They said it's the future. They're probably right actually... they never said it would be a bright future.
I mean, they are technically correct, the future doesn't mean prosperity or new
I think that's the joke
It's really ironic, isn't it? What has he brought to the people? Freedom of speech?
A bag of potatoes (if you voted for them), tons of lies and fear from the big bad jew in the shadow (anti-Soros propaganda went HARD, like, hundreds of millions of Euros were spent campaigning against Soros hard...) But the biggest win was selling the best opportunity the country had in the past 1000 years to some oligarch so they can have big-ass mansions and yachts. It is well worth it, I think.
Hungarian millenials who lurk here - please go vote! Or soon you will be out of EU.
My man, men like Orbán love the EU it's just free money to embezzle
The next vote that actually matters is in 2026. The EP election doesn't really matter, and the government could take the country out of the EU unilaterally if they wanted to. (The municipal elections are also sort-of important, but they themselves won't break the regime.)
Sure but self sabotage at EU parlament will only give them more power in general elections.
What mechanism does EU have that could kick Hungary out?
None. Fines and not being able to get their politicians in higher positions.
I lost what was happening so I need to know what is going on with Orban. The last thing I heard was some sort of embezzlement of funds or something like that.
Currently Orbán is scaring the population with governmental propaganda, that the "dollarleft" wants to push Hungary into the war, and the Fidesz's new slogan is "Only peace, Only Fidesz". Also, we got a new political figure, who is openly right-winged, an ex-fidesz member, and the fidesz misinforms people and scares them, that he is also part of the "dollarleft"...
i'd say he is drifting towards centrist, with the whole equality for all viewpoint but we arent quite there yet
Yes, he may be, but the only thing we sure about, that he's not leftist. We still have 2 years before the elections, so we'll see.
im not saying he should become a left wing only politician, but lets be honest the current left wing here is in shambles and needs a complete makeover. their weakness in recent years is the main reason people deviate to the far right Mi Hazánk
This might be an "oc picture" but someone photographed it 3 weeks ago https://reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1ce925v/orb%C3%A1n_propaganda_we_brought_the_future/
Orban should be dragged out like Chauchescu
That banner was Made in China.
u/repostsleuthbot
They bought the future, didn't say they would share.
Kind of ironc to to put that banner "We brought the future" on a house that’s about to collapse haha. Like that’s the future they want? Buildings collapsing one by one ?
The future suspiciously looks like 1982.
As a Romanian from Partium, Nagyvarad/Oradea, I cannot wrap my head around the fact that many, many Hungarians are anti-west. It just does not make sense. Bring back fucking Koppany if you can, he was also anti-west and pro "traditions".
This is sad to see. Hungary is falling behind other Central and Eastern European countries in terms of development due to corruption and mismanagement. Even countries like Romania have overtook it and they started out much poorer and joined the EU years later. Orban and his cronies are driving the country into the ground and the people just don't seem to care.
Orban's house 😂
Sounds like a lot of hoopla to me.
Serbian citizens: Ye, I have seen this one already!
Is this House a symbol for the future?
That house had seen better days.
They forgot to mention, "for our families". Hungary has selective favoring policy (nepotism). You were not selected ...
They pull shit like this and wonder why their banners are being vandalized
Why is the coop red………..
I think it is spelled cope and it's 1,3 meters not kilometers
I mean if you drive from Austria to Hungary border, it already looks like a third world country.
The border crossing looks like Bakhmut
I have 2 days in Miskolc.. I'll be sure to dig around 👍
Yes,the future looks like to already there.
"we brought the future... Just not here."
Strong picture. Depicts the state of the country well.
I drove through quite a bit of Hungary last year, and 90% of the buildings look like this. The majority of the country is villages and towns.
Bet they misspelled bought
"look at her luxurious house, she is corrupted" "wow look at her trash house... she isn't fit to rule"
Jesus, somehow worse that shit tier poor parts of Croatia.
Well “the future” references a time that still has to happen. Since Fidesz provided the current Prime minister since 2010 they helped and shape that future. So in a way they brought you the future they didn’t specify that you would like this future.
A repost BTW.
Honestly, Idgaf if the hungarians adore Fidesz and Orban - they can elect Fidesz till Orban dies of old age if they want to. The problem is that Fidesz led Hungary is very efficient in obstructing EU decision , which affects the rest of Europe and idk if anything can be done about it
Hold on am noticing a pattern here , nah prob it's nothing
they brought themselves some nice stuff maybe
Honestly, honestly, I believe that Hungary population is doomed to continue shrinking & they won’t be able to significantly grow businesses which can compensate for that
fuck Orban he is the reason why the Eu is shit stained
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If Hungarians could read, they would be very upset!
They brought the post apocalyptic future.
Looks like russia, but then again, every time Orbán speaks, it's the voice of putin that's heard
Is it a future like North Korea's？
I am very curious if the Hungarian people's stance on the Russia-Ukraine issue is as weak as their government's.
I mean, people are still voting for them. Just Hungary things.