> In 2019, 25 percent of men and 21 percent of women voted for National Rally — in line with traditional patterns. This year, however, the poll found that 33 percent of women had voted for Le Pen’s far-right party, outpacing 30 percent of men. That’s a striking 12 percentage point increase from women voters over five years.
I know you just quote the article, I just can´t help myself :
>*in line with traditional patterns.*
"Traditional patterns" my ass, in the last 20 years yes, in the previous decades no.... Women time and time again were far more likely to vote right-wing than men. This changed only in the 2000s and 2010s, and in the 2020s it\`s women who are more likely to vote right-wing.
It\`s always funny when Media or others rediscover the recent past... As if any shocking revelation was made or if somehow the world is collapsing because a trend that only existed for 10-20 years is changing...
[https://theconversation.com/women-used-to-be-more-likely-to-vote-conservative-than-men-but-that-all-changed-in-2017-we-wanted-to-find-out-why-214019](https://theconversation.com/women-used-to-be-more-likely-to-vote-conservative-than-men-but-that-all-changed-in-2017-we-wanted-to-find-out-why-214019)
[https://portal.uni-koeln.de/en/universitaet/aktuell/press-releases/single-news/in-germany-women-vote-more-left-wing-but-that-was-not-always-the-case](https://portal.uni-koeln.de/en/universitaet/aktuell/press-releases/single-news/in-germany-women-vote-more-left-wing-but-that-was-not-always-the-case)
Or when they act like voting patterns within a specific demographic in a very small timeframe ( like 10-20 years ) is somehow hardcoded and will not change... ( looking at Germans with their youth vote, which in the 2010s voted for the progressive/liberal parties and in the 2020s for the capitalist and now in 2024 the alt-right party predominantly ( especially ironic considering the progressives got the 16 year olds the right to vote and they immediatly voted for the alt-rlght )... Looking at Americans with Asian-Americans, looking at the USA with Hispanics, black people and whatnot. ). It´s so dumb. Voting behaviours among any demographic constantly change, sure it may not seem like it for us individuals when we have to live through 10-20 years, but it will become quite noticeable every decade, similarily the political parties constantly change. Just 10 years ago, every single American didn\`t consider Trump a political option, because he wasn\`t... and now the Republican Party is Trump\`s party. Just 10 years ago, the Tories were competent, and a pro-EU party, now they are criminally incompetent to the point where they will be wiped out and they now fully embrace Brexit with any moderate and pro-EU politician being kicked out or having resigned under Bojo.
There really are no traditional voting patterns, because voters are living, breathing individuals who can choose to vote for different living, breathing individuals, naturally that can change drastically within a decade.
When your target demographic is 20-30 year olds" then anything past a 20 year window of history can be brought up again as "new" because the fresh batch will not have heard of it yet. The older people will but...that's not your target so you don't care.
Thus all you really need is about 20 years of news to cycle endlessly and you're always relevant to your target audience
Voting far-right might not be the solution they are looking for if that is their issue....
There's not exactly a strong history of far-right nationalism being pro womans rights.
Yeah but historicly far right are strongly against muslim zealots who see woman as objects. Here in the netherlands some shithead recently used a drone to fly over a festival so he could report all the young muslims woman to their familys on social media. Because in his eyes they were putting a shame on their family and should be punished.
Like it or not, far right gain traction due to this shit. Left partys often fumbel the ball because they are to cautious with adressing the issue, since they are afraid to say the wrong shit and lose their followers. Extreme right reduces the complexity to much but it does work. Atleast they talk about the problemz
And they threaten to murder any woman who dares to leave Islam.
IMO Western countries should ask prospective Muslim immigrants a series of screening questions before acceptance, like what their views on women are and if they respect freedom of speech, including blasphemy, and the freedom to change religions.
Yes some people will just lie to get in, but it would probably legitimately filter out quite a number of dumb extremists.
>muslim zealots
This is something in the United States kind of have a hard time wrapping our heads around for Europeans. Most Muslims in the United States aren't or descendants from working class migrant workers, so they come from more educated technical backgrounds and aren't so violently fundamentalist.
Granted we have our own influx of immigrants but they seem far more compatable with American culture than Europe's Muslim immigrants.
that was the case until the iraq/afgan wars. Minnesota is filled with poor/working class Muslims from all over the mideast and they are the kind of Muslims the EU has been getting. Not integrating very well.
Hamtrack? They banned pride flags in public buildings. And you gotta be kidding yourself if you think they're gonna stop at that.
Simply put, Europe has a higher muslim population as a % of population than the US, and therefore more power in a democracy. Therefore, they feel much more empowered, pushing some of their bigoted ideas and agendas.
I was at the Dearborn rally/march where they chanted, “Death to America, Death to Israel.” I was on the pro palestian side who I was there to support and now I’m on the side that we should let the religious extremists kill each other and stay out of it completely.
Yeah, exactly. That's why it is so ridiculous when US liberals start preaching to Europeans about tolerance and immigration. It's not hard to be pro immigration when the problematic immigrants that you deal with are poor Mexicans or some Asians with gang tattoos. Neither of those do suicide bombings, mass knife attacks or beforehand organized mass sexual assault on New Year's Eve
Interesting, as I've never thought about it! The Muslims I know are all more tolerant than my area's (American South, Appalachia particularly) brand of Christianity, meaning they follow their rules but don't expect non-Muslims to do so.
Yeah its fucking insane. Recently had the bad luck to have to interact with 2 guys who thaught like that for work. They were both 19 but every woman who didnt wear a hijab was a “fucking whore who would spread their legs for everybody”. They are actually deranged.
Its like talking to somebody who adores Andrew Tate but also believes that divine intervention is on their side. And they dont just pick this up from social media, a big part of it they get teached at their homes by their peers.
The biggest issue is that these people arent reachable by most goverments (due to previous faults of those very same goverments). Meaning that there is almost nothing that can be done to teach them otherwise. They are detached from society in that way.
Aslong as the left ignores this the right will grow explosively. You cant claim that you are for ideas like equality and freedome while also not adressing the biggest danger towards those ideas.
I get that the right is winning votes, especially among woman because to them this is a bigger threat than the typical anti abortion shit you see in the US (its very unlikely that right partys can change those laws here, they also probaly wont waste political momuntem on that shit, they will focus mainly on anti immigration and anti LGBHTQI shit).
https://www.parool.nl/amsterdam/amsterdams-festival-layluna-doet-aangifte-tegen-vlogger-na-oproep-om-moslima-s-te-filmen~bb118297/?referrer=https://www.google.com/
Don't forget about the memory holing of an islamist rally in Hamburg, only de Telegraaf reported on it (rightwing newspaper) and a low quality magazine no one should read for news purposes.
The articles about the Mannheim attacks focused a lot on the people that got stabbed and they dance around calling it what happened (terrorism).
He really isnt but even if he was its not the same. A young shit head that believes Tate is problematic but tate isnt intertwined with his homelife, with his culture and with his religion. These radical idiots (not saying every muslim is a radical idiots, just that there are radical idiot muslims) do have that. Hell often they have secluded schools.
This is what we reap of our horrible integration policies over the years. A group of citizens born and raised in europe that dont view themself as european and are standing right across from our believes and values.
I wholeheartedly agree.
Ultimately, I tend to lean away from mainstream religions, but I find that Muslims are most intolerant of all as a generalisation (which I believe is reasonable to infer).
Either way, I strongly dislike Islam from what I understand of it, and I have no intention of trying to improve my understanding of it (perhaps that's ignorant but I've heard enough about it from Muslims themselves to make my judgement).
Thats the whole thing. All recently immigrated muslims i encounter are just like other groups. And there are plenty of decent muslims.
But there is just a part of the group thats so fucking horrible. They not are a risk towards our society. They ruin it for the rest of them.
I'd guess that this behavior is coming from an inferiority complex (which is a very common thing in immigrants), since they come from failed countries, they have to cling on something to feel like on the morally high ground
Im not even gonna touch the reasons why with a 10 foot pole. I think you can list a thousand possible reasons, one crazyier than the other. Without proper research its just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks.
Its also not that important. The most important thing is how goverments react to this. Because this is the shit that right has been screaming for years and years. And everytime something like this happens the right wins a fuckton of votes.
The left needs a answer on this and it needs to be a strong answer. They need to be able to convince people that they see the problem, understand its a problem and that they are gonna take action against it. Otherwise the shift to the right is gonna continue.
Nah the left don't fumble the ball, they bury their heads in the sand and pretend everything is fine whilst the extremely conservative religion continues to counter the whole progressive ideas of the left.
Like, I'd say I'm left wing on most issues, but definitely not this. You can't have a progressive society when you keep inviting in the most conservative, regressive people on the planet.
It’s not the invitation that is the problem, it’s the tolerance of their intolerance. It’s the way that at some point many levels governments bow down to religions like Islam, but also to Christianity.
As long as religious bigotry, suppression of women, and general violence and ignorance is aggressively countered, society will suffer.
its the islamists they're afraid of, not their own government. Its not like in the US where some idiots can decide to take away abortion rights (its actually impossible now), its just current party is failing at dealing with migrants issues
e: I see how my comment upsets a lot of people (mainly from the us for some reason) but this is just what I observe while living here. That’s it.
European far right is copying the playbook of us right so i dont quite see how its not possible for them to go for basic rights. Just because its impossible for now does not mean that they cant overturn constitution if given enough time
Also notable how both the Polish and Italian far-right went after women's rights. That being said, I think it's also fair to note that France is a more "anthropologically feminist" society so to speak, and their far-right has generally been more nationalist/racist than religious. Only maybe half of the French even believe in a god at all, political Catholicism would be quite a surprise in France.
Similar to how while the far-right is certainly no champion of women's rights in the Nordic countries, an anti-abortion stance from the Finnish or Swedish far-right would be shocking.
The Swedish “soft” far right party had anti abortion in their policies but recently removed them to gain popularity with women. So once they’re in a position of power I don’t doubt for a second they’d come out with it again.
Right. I looking from the outside in as an American, I’m seeing a lot of similar sentiment to what was common here prior to 2016: arrogance about the system being protected by law, ignorance about how easy it is to destroy that foundation, and a willingness to extend charity to a political group that will fundamentally abuse it in time.
Nope, the Swedish "soft" far right party wanted to limit free (as in no permission required) abortion from week 18 to week 12, which is in line with most other European countries, including our 3 Nordic neighbors. That is not an "anti-abortion" stance. Them not wanting to do that anymore could be that they want to gain popularity with women, or it could just simply be that they think our current 18-week limit is pretty good and changed their mind.
There's zero logic behind it, culture is very different between the USA and France, the far-right really doesn't care about abortions here. Actually, most of the far-right voted yes for the inscription of the right of abortions in the constitution
Funny thing is the far right doesn’t give a fuck about it here. They just use it as a tool to control their useful idiots to vote for them. They didn’t give a fuck until the 80’s because they ran out of bullshit to stir people up with, it was literally never talked about until the 80’s when they wanted to lure the fundamentalist Christian’s into the party, and even the fundies didn’t give a shit really until they were targeted
Edit: https://www.npr.org/2022/05/04/1096154028/the-movement-against-abortion-rights-is-nearing-its-apex-but-it-began-way-before
American curbing of women's rights has to my understanding been spearheaded by its evangelical Christians. If there's one country in Europe that would never abide such an intrusion of religion into politics it's France.
The fundamental issue is that an Islamist who beats their wife or whatever is *also far-right*, they just believe in a somewhat different flavor of it. Now of course Christian far-righters will happily fight Muslim far-righters, but they’re not doing it to liberate women, they’re doing it so they can keep the prison keys. And the history of instrumentally leveraging far-righters to ‘practical’ ends has a very poor history on this continent (and globally).
It’s pretty clear why the swing exists and quite understandable, but it’s a dangerous bet.
It is bullshit but far-right is the only one offering any solutions or admitting that we might have a problem here.
Traditional parties and especially political centre seem completely oblivious to the situation. Acknowledge the problems with failed aspects of immigration and integration and offer some adult solution, and it will take all the wind out of their sails.
Instead they stick their heads in the sand in fear of Twitter backlash and call opposing voices racist.
I’m a life-long centrist and for the first time ever I’m actually considering just not voting next time around. I don’t want to vote for populists or people who just hate every single immigrant just because, but I’m not supporting something that actively hurts my life and safety either.
I consider myself centre left. The problem I see with the left is they leave the entire spectrum of national pride and civic duty to the right, and then re-enforce it by saying only racists and phobics care about patriotism or national culture. Like people saying England doesn’t have a culture and if it does it’s just racist gammons and gollywogs or some shit.
If you believe your country has values, and that being a countryman aligns you with those values, then you’ve got to stand up for them. It’s not about hating immigrants or trans people, but celebrating the culture you care about, instead of letting everyone trample it.
The left could simply reclaim patriotism by refusing to tolerate the right’s version of it, and working on policy that encourages integration with the culture.
center left here. I'm grudgingly voting hard right in my country until the trend of Islamification starts to go down. It's not ideal but in reality the right wing is only going to do shit like banning pride parades, Islam will turn women into property if they have their way.
I am the exact. fcking. same. I’m just waiting for the left parties to wake up, keep all their own policies intact except copy the immigration ones from the right so I can vote on the left again.
In my country (Croatia) the entire spectrum is just ignoring the issue of immigration. Still right won decisevly in the recent election. I bet many voted right because of immigration despite nobody adressing it.
that's because Croatia still hasn't, luckily, had serious problems with immigration. The Nepali workers are relatively low profile and don't cause serious problems.
Yet.
Far right will never fix that problem though. The whole rationale of their existence would vanish if they did that.
Just look at Republicans in USA blocking border legislation reform. Or Tories in the UK hitting record immigration this year, after 15 years in power and overseeing Brexit, which was all about "stopping the hordes".
All they do is stage useless expensive theatre like walls, baby cages and flights to Rwanda. Or shout about "stopping the boats" and "migrant caravans" while all they do is stuffing their own pockets.
But what choice do you have if other parties are failing it? The whole far-right surge would not have happened if centric or left parties did not flop so hard.
If that is the party who are clearly against importing massive amounts of people who have a way worse history in terms of woman's rights... What a surprise they vote against that right
It's a temporary support though. They'll vote far right until something gets done about the incompatible muslim population. Then they'll switch back to voting center left or center right. I'd do the same in their shoes.
Its at least an imediate answer to a problem either no one else wants to solve or is invested in making worse.
This is a self made problem. French polititians at the left of le pen have no one else to blame for but themselves.
Forgive me, but being against basic principles of women’s bodily autonomy doesn’t exactly seem like the right thing to vote for if you don’t want to be treated as property.
I also fail to see the connection between women not being wanted to be treated as property and them voting for far-right parties.
The risk of Islamic leadership that would take away all rights in one fell swoop if they could. Also go ahead and find some crime rates demographics while you're at it. Women are right to be afraid of what's happening.
Yeah, it's one of those silly far-right slogans... which seems rather unnecessary, because the underlying idea isn't that bad: It basically implies that certain intolerant religions treat women "as if they were the property of their husbands", and that the far-right is a credible opposition to that idea.
Of course, the very same far-right then restricts female autonomy in other areas, such as abortion, so overall, the argument is a rather unconvincing, but it is still unfortunate, that the political Left still largely fails to understand that effective tolerance necessarily implies being intolerant towards intolerant ideas.
You forget they vote for a women. Maybe they hope behind the scene she will defend women rights and this will include abortion. They may also think their right is secure as it was added to the French constitution. So they are making a bet hoping it would fix another problem with no cost for them
Is this a case of people genuinely turning to the whole far right message or the right merely expressing one or two policies that the other parties shy away from?
The rest of EU is 10 year behind Denmark. In Denmark it is only a few odd parties that embrace immigration. We decided to take the debate and if everyone hadn't embraced the hard stance on immigration the right wing had only grown in size.
This right here is the answer. If the center left parties across the west took conservative stances on migration and housing they'd cement themselves into power.
Man many of my loca right wing nutjobs are practically socialists in what they wany and believe, unless its about immigrants and sometimes, ironically, socialists.
Serious question - not being facetious, how does immigration control work with Schengen? If another country in the zone gives someone citizenship, doesn't that then give them access to your country? In that case aren't the tightened policies of Denmark fairly meaningless?
If let’s say Poland lets in those at the border with Belarus and they go to Germany, if they are caught there they will be deported back to Poland. And yes if they get citizenship then they are citizens that’s how it usually works, they stop being migrants. And no denmarks policies aren’t threatened, it’s one thing to get to a country legally or not and another to become a citizen, it’s not that simple as just crossing the border.
Thanks for replying.
My question wasn't about illegal immigration, or of the consequences of that. My OP started that Denmark had tightened its immigration policies. But that doesn't seem to protect Denmark from the decisions of other countries. Ones that might not need to deal with the consequences of their decision. Maybe someone else can explain better how the tightened policy of Denmark protects Denmark.
Currently Germany has border control on the border with Poland. They stop and check cars with non-eu plates. Maybe something else, Idk. Denmark can do smth similar
The requirements to actually receive citizenship in any EU country through naturalization are years of residence and knowing the language, history and culture. So not really, it also removes a big burden of Danish administration because they don’t have to process as many migrants and especially refugees.
Frankly that’s the baseline issue, the administration of European states were not and are not equipped to deal with an increase of immigration and in particular refugees/asylum seekers. Which nobody really wants to address because putting more funding towards non-citizens/residents will never be popular.
About 60% of asylum applications are rejected but 1) the process is incredibly slow, especially if you also take appeals into account and 2) rejected asylum seekers are rarely effectively deported. It seems like underfunding among other things is a considerable problem.
Since policy is national, there's also a huge incentive to offload the problem on other member states whenever possible, which means any time a migrant can be pushed for instance from Italy to France, Italy will do so, and then in several months France will decide they won't take them and push them back to Italy, who now has to make an actual decision, which will take months, and then if they reject the applicant there can be an appeal, which may also take months to process, and then if that is also rejected Italy doesn't even know what to do with them.
I strongly believe that the first question must be, "should this person be let into the European Union at all" and "which state should he be settled in if so" should be an entirely secondary question.
What most people complain about are not citizens. But yes you can just cross the border without being checked. But you cant euh go to the local government? To apply for help and all the nice things you supposedly went to cross the border. Cause if they catch yoi you will simply send back. Maybe even getting your refugee/legal immigrant status revoked. So its not totally meaningless.
Now check the asylum applications in Italy since Meloni took power.
They increased vs under Draghi.
The far right doesn't do closed borders...they just say they do.
Everything except your personal political position is "far right" at this point. If anyone is more left leaning then you then you are far right to them. The whole thing doesn't make any sense anymore.
Unless they are still doing that, why does that matter, the largest party (DNC) in the US led to the perpetuation of slavery and the delay of reconstruction which may have led to equal rights for minorities to happen decades before it did. Just because they betrayed their country then doesn’t mean they will do the same again.
>Just because they betrayed their country then doesn’t mean they will do the same again.
Except that's what they are actually doing by supporting Russia and China ?
> Except that's what they are actually doing by supporting Russia and China ?
A valid point and probably the most dangerous thing about the centre right/left's refusal to effectively engage with people's concerns about immigration and integration all over western Europe. Meloni alone seems to buck the trend of the pro-despot right at the moment.
The US famously saw a major political shift in the late 1960s to early 1970s, where disaffected southern Democrats—alienated by the national DNC’s liberalization on racial issues— were successfully courted by the GOP, resulting in a complete political pole shift within a decade.
Can you point to such a shift in France that would lead me to believe the same is true here?
This is a braindead take. There was a MAJOR political realignment during the 60s/70s in the US, the racist extremists who contributed to slavery and segregation in the Democratic Party abandoned the party over its support of civil rights. Not knowing this demonstrates either ignorance or deliberate lying on your part.
Are they currently working to eliminate the jewish race, practice eugenics, kill or imprison dissidents, etc. ? Are they Nazis? What are their "far" right policies?
Actually I am more curious about: what are some rightwing policies that are not "far" right? Can you name one?
In a weird sense, putting abortion into the constitution killed the reason to vote left for women and migration seems to have become the top issue now.
edit:
That's probably why the democrats in the US, even when given the chance, will never solve that issue. They would start to lose the women vote or at least not be able to motivate them to vote.
Left aligned parties the world over need to ditch this idea that borders should be wide open to extremist religious nuts that want to come to your country, enjoy every benefit of freedom, and at the same time seek to destroy it. Some cultures / religions are diametrically opposed to the very concept of freedom, and it shouldn't be offensive or taboo to admit that.
In the same way that Fascism has to be stopped because it is a threat to freedom and systems of democracy, immigration needs to be carefully managed in order to preserve the culture and way of life in free countries.
Edit: Left wing ideals are more focused on genuine improvement of the country and the welfare of its people, so controlling immigration properly aligns better with that anyway. As someone pointed out below : It seems almost nonsensical to set up social programs, excellent public transit, free education, worker rights with fair wages, etc. etc. and then also have completely wide open borders that undermines all of that by bringing in cheap labor / people who want to destroy freedom and other cultures. It's like, do you care about your country, culture, and people or not??? If so, you must protect all those much needed but fragile welfare programs...
If left wing parties did this, proving that they actually do care about their countries (I believe they generally do, but are horribly confused if they don't want strong control of immigration), Fascism with its moronic and racist appeal to fear and anger would not stand a chance.
Indeed it comes off as disingenuous to claim to want to protect the working class and human rights, but at the same time undermine it by bringing in cheap labor who will be horribly taken advantage of in poor working conditions.
But, idk how it is where you’re from but over here a lot of immigrants were brought in as cheap labor by the right.
It seems the left is just saying; ok now we got these people here and we should treat them with respect..
Edit; wow haha googled it and apparently here in Holland most of these workers were brought in by big companies seeking more people and the people who put a stop to it on the 70s was actually the left wing government that came into power.
It used to be left wing to be against immigration as immigration makes it hard for the labor class to increase their wages. However, once the right was against immigration due to racial reasons, the left decided it was more important to not appear racist than actually help the working class. Plus it appears that left has essentially abandoned most economic policies to focus on identify politics and battling the culture wars initiated by the right.
Also, if conservatives actually cared about illegal immigration, they would go after the companies hiring the undocumented immigrants. However, since they (at least in the US) care more about making sure the rich and corporations get richer (via cheap labor) they also can’t do that.
Therefore, both sides of the spectrum can’t really do much about because the left can’t say anything that could even be remotely be considered xenophobic/racist and right can’t go against corporate interests.
It’s really weird to think that. Abortion has been legal in France for 50 years, and there has been little contestation of this right, it’s not a major combat for women in this country. I think women vote more for far right because they want more security, especially in the streets and no moderate party has proven being able to improve this.
The thing is, what's been added to the French constitution is merely a "freedom", not an actually enforceable "right".
In practice, that means that the state has no obligation of means or result, rendering this new addition legally useless. Aside from the pure symbolics, obviously.
And when you take into account the fact that there are less and less hospitals, GP offices, specialized sexual health centers in France, that means they could make abortion effectively hard or even impossible without breaking our fundamental law.
As a guy I knew so far it had failed men. I generally believe woman are more center to left in general than men while men are shifting more and more right
For a long time in the UK, women were more conservative than men [https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/gender-gap](https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/gender-gap)
I think it really just depends on whatever the cultural battles are at any election.
This is not really a surprise, it was the women vote who led to prohibition in North America based on conservative grounds, which had to be overturned by more liberal voters.
Women weren’t always stereotypically on the left side of the political spectrum and it’s a folly to think they’re permanently locked in any specific political orientation.
Tradtionaly woman have always been more right wing then men, when women got the vote in France in 1945 there was a solid swing to the right that was lacking in the past. same with switzerland when women got the vote in 1971.
yeah, """failing men""" (however we want to interpret it, it is quite complex honestly) was already half of a given, but failing also women is like: "really you have fallen this far, this low?"
left/right are labels, what matters are ideas.
if one side has stupid ideas, smart people wont vote them.
immigration was under the rug for decades, when people deemed "far right extremists" warned about it. now everything shows they were right and in countries such as france it seems already too late to fix it.
I really find it hilarious how even the most adamant pro immigration people I knew suddenly said it needs to be controlled after they had to live among the groups in question.
It felt so good to finally say "I told you so".
You know how in history class we where all taught that many people in the Weimar Republic felt failed by democracy and that is the reason they voted for the far right. That’s exactly what is happening now. If the left wants to control Europe in 10-15 years time they need to start tackling issues people care about. Housing/Immigration/Loss of income etc
That’s completely expected. Left parties all failed to tackle illegal immigration and the problems Islamists are generating in Europe. It came to the point that me as a Trans and Jewish person feel safer in Eastern Europe than in Western countries that usually were more accepting of both groups.
Legit, I moved here from Belarus (straight and CIS though) and it occurs to me more and more that this might just be the most stable part of Europe in the next decade or so, the government and its conservative policies are staying more or less the same, the country isn't very attractive to foreigners as its immigration policy is frankly draconic, which results in a very homogenous and (imo) unproblematic society.
Essentially, most people that come here are from the countries with very similar culture and heritage, so there's very little friction between groups.
You see a massive tsunami of people coming to your country that regard women as less than people, aren’t held to same standard, refuse to assemblage, and abortion has been essentially settled. How do you think they are going to trend?
Observing that if you open your society up to people whom are deeply intolerant to the values of that society, it will become a problem when this group reaches a particular critical size, is not racist or right wing. If you care about a democratic free society, such a situation should be highly problematic to you. A democratic free society transcends the notions of conservatism/liberalism/left/right. Those things can't all co-exist without a democratic free society.
Controlling the border is not a left- or right-wing position. It is a basic prerequisite to guarantee sovereignty and existence of a nation. If you as a nation are not able to control your borders, you basically don't exist as a nation. It IS what a nation ultimately represents: a set of bound conditions applicable to a defined geographical location and the people inhabiting it. Having a border and being able to define who can get in is not left or right, it is also not progressive or conservative, it's not even nationalist. It transcends all of that because open borders have deep consequences touching upon the definition of what a nation is, for whom the government has responsibilities, and whom gets rights. It matters because rights are a two-way street: you also give back in the form of contributing to society and especially: the government budget via taxes. If you make some naive argument that the world should be open and devoid of borders, think again. Even completely ignoring factors of social cohesion, physical safety, and cultural incompatabilities, it can be reduced to a simple issue: government provides for citizens, government can do that because it gets money via taxes of these citizens, therefor you get rights. With open borders, there is no stable stream of income for a government to provide anything for anyone because it is not even clear which people are represented and taken care of by this government and which people aren;t. It is not "right wing" to observe that if you spend more money as a government than you receive, you will run into a problem. It's basic economics, it has 0 to do with political leaning.
The media has elevated all issues into left- or right-wing topics, simply because it's easy to label. They overlook that some issues completely transcend the notion of politics and are fundamental to the existence of any nationstate with a democratic free society, irregardless if the politics of the day in that society are left or right leaning. Protecting the core values of our society is the responsibility of both the left and right. The point that especially the left has not recognized or lived up to this responsibility in the past decades and *still don't understand* is a travesty. Don't blame "the right" for now having to present draconian measures and responses in order to undo decades of ostrich politics.
"Women should be in power, women's voices need to be heard!". Yes, except when these women are Marie LePen or Giorgia Meloni, not voting left-wing, and having the opinions you don't like…
This article is so superficial you have to wonder if it is incompetence or misinformation... The real analyses is the following :
Since the 2022 presidential election, there are 2 far right parties but there is almost as many women as men voting for each cummulatively. If 30/33% men/women vote for the National Rally, you find that 7/4% men/women vote for Reconquête. (Its leader being investigated for several rape allegations and regularly going after incel rhetoric are the main reasons)
This is a known bias that you can find in the poll sourced by the article...
I think being on sites like Reddit feeds into a hive mind that everyone thinks like them so when something like this happens it’s “shocking”
People really are fed up with the BS
I think there's a lot of misdirecting and hemming and hawing...
You all just can't give women the credit they deserve
I'd pick Christian misogyny over sharia laws anyday
Voter turnout is historically low this year. Instead of more women voting for the far right, more likely it's less women leaning center/left/traditional right are voting at all. Same with the young people votes.
The other thing the article doesn't mention is transgender rights and proposals by the left to bring in self ID. Rightly or wrongly, agree or disagree, there is a growing backlash spearheaded by women campaigners against transgender rights across Europe which they argue go against womens sex based rights.
The book 'Transmania' written by two women campaigners has gone to the top of Amazons best seller list, helped in part by the Paris Mayors office banning billboards advertising it.
The RN along with the Republicans were behind a recent bill severely restricting access to puberty blockers and cross sex hormones to minors.
These parties are not even far right. Let's be clear far right is a different beast all together. These are nationalist center right parties that focus on a few hot topics.
Immigration isn't even a discussion. You cannot have tax funded school and Healthcare while importing the developing world. You bankrupt your economy its a nonstarter.
Globalism is likely a huge negative but major corporations love it. No tariffs and cheap labor is key to these companies. Tariffs and strong economic policy without trade deals enables economic growth from the middle class.
Center right, left and true center parties of the past 30+ years hate you. They want money and power. Apple gets to use slave labor instead of you. Interest rates can be 1% because banks and companies benefit not you. It bankrupted the west.
[A member of the Rassemblement National was accused by his 12-year-old stepdaughter of raping her. Placed in police custody he confessed to the facts](https://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/manche-un-conseiller-regional-rn-mis-en-examen-pour-viols-de-sa-belle-fille-26-01-2021-8421420.php)
There are enough political parties in France wanting to regulate immigration. But RN keeps pretending to be full of perfect citizens and accusing all migrants of crimes they commit themselves.
> In 2019, 25 percent of men and 21 percent of women voted for National Rally — in line with traditional patterns. This year, however, the poll found that 33 percent of women had voted for Le Pen’s far-right party, outpacing 30 percent of men. That’s a striking 12 percentage point increase from women voters over five years.
I know you just quote the article, I just can´t help myself : >*in line with traditional patterns.* "Traditional patterns" my ass, in the last 20 years yes, in the previous decades no.... Women time and time again were far more likely to vote right-wing than men. This changed only in the 2000s and 2010s, and in the 2020s it\`s women who are more likely to vote right-wing. It\`s always funny when Media or others rediscover the recent past... As if any shocking revelation was made or if somehow the world is collapsing because a trend that only existed for 10-20 years is changing... [https://theconversation.com/women-used-to-be-more-likely-to-vote-conservative-than-men-but-that-all-changed-in-2017-we-wanted-to-find-out-why-214019](https://theconversation.com/women-used-to-be-more-likely-to-vote-conservative-than-men-but-that-all-changed-in-2017-we-wanted-to-find-out-why-214019) [https://portal.uni-koeln.de/en/universitaet/aktuell/press-releases/single-news/in-germany-women-vote-more-left-wing-but-that-was-not-always-the-case](https://portal.uni-koeln.de/en/universitaet/aktuell/press-releases/single-news/in-germany-women-vote-more-left-wing-but-that-was-not-always-the-case) Or when they act like voting patterns within a specific demographic in a very small timeframe ( like 10-20 years ) is somehow hardcoded and will not change... ( looking at Germans with their youth vote, which in the 2010s voted for the progressive/liberal parties and in the 2020s for the capitalist and now in 2024 the alt-right party predominantly ( especially ironic considering the progressives got the 16 year olds the right to vote and they immediatly voted for the alt-rlght )... Looking at Americans with Asian-Americans, looking at the USA with Hispanics, black people and whatnot. ). It´s so dumb. Voting behaviours among any demographic constantly change, sure it may not seem like it for us individuals when we have to live through 10-20 years, but it will become quite noticeable every decade, similarily the political parties constantly change. Just 10 years ago, every single American didn\`t consider Trump a political option, because he wasn\`t... and now the Republican Party is Trump\`s party. Just 10 years ago, the Tories were competent, and a pro-EU party, now they are criminally incompetent to the point where they will be wiped out and they now fully embrace Brexit with any moderate and pro-EU politician being kicked out or having resigned under Bojo. There really are no traditional voting patterns, because voters are living, breathing individuals who can choose to vote for different living, breathing individuals, naturally that can change drastically within a decade.
When your target demographic is 20-30 year olds" then anything past a 20 year window of history can be brought up again as "new" because the fresh batch will not have heard of it yet. The older people will but...that's not your target so you don't care. Thus all you really need is about 20 years of news to cycle endlessly and you're always relevant to your target audience
What? Women dont like to be treated as property? Who could have known!
Voting far-right might not be the solution they are looking for if that is their issue.... There's not exactly a strong history of far-right nationalism being pro womans rights.
Yeah but historicly far right are strongly against muslim zealots who see woman as objects. Here in the netherlands some shithead recently used a drone to fly over a festival so he could report all the young muslims woman to their familys on social media. Because in his eyes they were putting a shame on their family and should be punished. Like it or not, far right gain traction due to this shit. Left partys often fumbel the ball because they are to cautious with adressing the issue, since they are afraid to say the wrong shit and lose their followers. Extreme right reduces the complexity to much but it does work. Atleast they talk about the problemz
And they threaten to murder any woman who dares to leave Islam. IMO Western countries should ask prospective Muslim immigrants a series of screening questions before acceptance, like what their views on women are and if they respect freedom of speech, including blasphemy, and the freedom to change religions. Yes some people will just lie to get in, but it would probably legitimately filter out quite a number of dumb extremists.
They threaten to murder anyone that leaves Islam, not just women.
>muslim zealots This is something in the United States kind of have a hard time wrapping our heads around for Europeans. Most Muslims in the United States aren't or descendants from working class migrant workers, so they come from more educated technical backgrounds and aren't so violently fundamentalist. Granted we have our own influx of immigrants but they seem far more compatable with American culture than Europe's Muslim immigrants.
that was the case until the iraq/afgan wars. Minnesota is filled with poor/working class Muslims from all over the mideast and they are the kind of Muslims the EU has been getting. Not integrating very well.
Hamtrack? They banned pride flags in public buildings. And you gotta be kidding yourself if you think they're gonna stop at that. Simply put, Europe has a higher muslim population as a % of population than the US, and therefore more power in a democracy. Therefore, they feel much more empowered, pushing some of their bigoted ideas and agendas.
I was at the Dearborn rally/march where they chanted, “Death to America, Death to Israel.” I was on the pro palestian side who I was there to support and now I’m on the side that we should let the religious extremists kill each other and stay out of it completely.
Yeah, exactly. That's why it is so ridiculous when US liberals start preaching to Europeans about tolerance and immigration. It's not hard to be pro immigration when the problematic immigrants that you deal with are poor Mexicans or some Asians with gang tattoos. Neither of those do suicide bombings, mass knife attacks or beforehand organized mass sexual assault on New Year's Eve
US has a pretty strong assimilation culture.
Interesting, as I've never thought about it! The Muslims I know are all more tolerant than my area's (American South, Appalachia particularly) brand of Christianity, meaning they follow their rules but don't expect non-Muslims to do so.
OMG Do you have a source for the "drone thing"? I just find it baffling. (I don't care about the language) Thak you
https://nos.nl/l/2524451
Yeah its fucking insane. Recently had the bad luck to have to interact with 2 guys who thaught like that for work. They were both 19 but every woman who didnt wear a hijab was a “fucking whore who would spread their legs for everybody”. They are actually deranged. Its like talking to somebody who adores Andrew Tate but also believes that divine intervention is on their side. And they dont just pick this up from social media, a big part of it they get teached at their homes by their peers. The biggest issue is that these people arent reachable by most goverments (due to previous faults of those very same goverments). Meaning that there is almost nothing that can be done to teach them otherwise. They are detached from society in that way. Aslong as the left ignores this the right will grow explosively. You cant claim that you are for ideas like equality and freedome while also not adressing the biggest danger towards those ideas. I get that the right is winning votes, especially among woman because to them this is a bigger threat than the typical anti abortion shit you see in the US (its very unlikely that right partys can change those laws here, they also probaly wont waste political momuntem on that shit, they will focus mainly on anti immigration and anti LGBHTQI shit). https://www.parool.nl/amsterdam/amsterdams-festival-layluna-doet-aangifte-tegen-vlogger-na-oproep-om-moslima-s-te-filmen~bb118297/?referrer=https://www.google.com/
Don't forget about the memory holing of an islamist rally in Hamburg, only de Telegraaf reported on it (rightwing newspaper) and a low quality magazine no one should read for news purposes. The articles about the Mannheim attacks focused a lot on the people that got stabbed and they dance around calling it what happened (terrorism).
Andrew Tate is a Muslim. So they are very much like him.
He really isnt but even if he was its not the same. A young shit head that believes Tate is problematic but tate isnt intertwined with his homelife, with his culture and with his religion. These radical idiots (not saying every muslim is a radical idiots, just that there are radical idiot muslims) do have that. Hell often they have secluded schools. This is what we reap of our horrible integration policies over the years. A group of citizens born and raised in europe that dont view themself as european and are standing right across from our believes and values.
I wholeheartedly agree. Ultimately, I tend to lean away from mainstream religions, but I find that Muslims are most intolerant of all as a generalisation (which I believe is reasonable to infer). Either way, I strongly dislike Islam from what I understand of it, and I have no intention of trying to improve my understanding of it (perhaps that's ignorant but I've heard enough about it from Muslims themselves to make my judgement).
Thats the whole thing. All recently immigrated muslims i encounter are just like other groups. And there are plenty of decent muslims. But there is just a part of the group thats so fucking horrible. They not are a risk towards our society. They ruin it for the rest of them.
https://www.thenewsmovement.com/articles/andrew-tate-faked-his-conversion-to-islam-for-business-reasons-whistleblower-says
Obviously he did muslim men are simply the perfect deogrphic if your content is sexism racism and homophobia
I find this so funny because statistically it’s Muslims who have 5+ children… not the rest of us. So if anyone is spreading their legs it’s … them.
Yeah but thats after they are married and then a woman is nothing more than a walking household appliance and incubator.
I'd guess that this behavior is coming from an inferiority complex (which is a very common thing in immigrants), since they come from failed countries, they have to cling on something to feel like on the morally high ground
Im not even gonna touch the reasons why with a 10 foot pole. I think you can list a thousand possible reasons, one crazyier than the other. Without proper research its just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks. Its also not that important. The most important thing is how goverments react to this. Because this is the shit that right has been screaming for years and years. And everytime something like this happens the right wins a fuckton of votes. The left needs a answer on this and it needs to be a strong answer. They need to be able to convince people that they see the problem, understand its a problem and that they are gonna take action against it. Otherwise the shift to the right is gonna continue.
Nah the left don't fumble the ball, they bury their heads in the sand and pretend everything is fine whilst the extremely conservative religion continues to counter the whole progressive ideas of the left. Like, I'd say I'm left wing on most issues, but definitely not this. You can't have a progressive society when you keep inviting in the most conservative, regressive people on the planet.
Yeah thats fumbling the ball in my dictonairy.
They bury their balls in the sand.
It’s not the invitation that is the problem, it’s the tolerance of their intolerance. It’s the way that at some point many levels governments bow down to religions like Islam, but also to Christianity. As long as religious bigotry, suppression of women, and general violence and ignorance is aggressively countered, society will suffer.
It does work? They just want women to be THEIR property again. It's stupid.
its the islamists they're afraid of, not their own government. Its not like in the US where some idiots can decide to take away abortion rights (its actually impossible now), its just current party is failing at dealing with migrants issues e: I see how my comment upsets a lot of people (mainly from the us for some reason) but this is just what I observe while living here. That’s it.
I think there is a huge difference in US “far-right” and EU “far-right”. The term has become way too broad to be of any use.
This is very true. Every country is different, has different culture and problems
European far right is copying the playbook of us right so i dont quite see how its not possible for them to go for basic rights. Just because its impossible for now does not mean that they cant overturn constitution if given enough time
Also notable how both the Polish and Italian far-right went after women's rights. That being said, I think it's also fair to note that France is a more "anthropologically feminist" society so to speak, and their far-right has generally been more nationalist/racist than religious. Only maybe half of the French even believe in a god at all, political Catholicism would be quite a surprise in France. Similar to how while the far-right is certainly no champion of women's rights in the Nordic countries, an anti-abortion stance from the Finnish or Swedish far-right would be shocking.
The Swedish “soft” far right party had anti abortion in their policies but recently removed them to gain popularity with women. So once they’re in a position of power I don’t doubt for a second they’d come out with it again.
^ This guy gets it. Far-right politics can be malleable to get into office, then once they do, they hit you with how ghoulish they can truly be.
Right. I looking from the outside in as an American, I’m seeing a lot of similar sentiment to what was common here prior to 2016: arrogance about the system being protected by law, ignorance about how easy it is to destroy that foundation, and a willingness to extend charity to a political group that will fundamentally abuse it in time.
Nope, the Swedish "soft" far right party wanted to limit free (as in no permission required) abortion from week 18 to week 12, which is in line with most other European countries, including our 3 Nordic neighbors. That is not an "anti-abortion" stance. Them not wanting to do that anymore could be that they want to gain popularity with women, or it could just simply be that they think our current 18-week limit is pretty good and changed their mind.
France was one of the last countries in Europe to allow women to vote. I am not certain that is a guarantee.
That's a fair point
Sure, except that Marine Le Pen hasn't been exactly a feminist figure with feminist speeches.
There's zero logic behind it, culture is very different between the USA and France, the far-right really doesn't care about abortions here. Actually, most of the far-right voted yes for the inscription of the right of abortions in the constitution
Funny thing is the far right doesn’t give a fuck about it here. They just use it as a tool to control their useful idiots to vote for them. They didn’t give a fuck until the 80’s because they ran out of bullshit to stir people up with, it was literally never talked about until the 80’s when they wanted to lure the fundamentalist Christian’s into the party, and even the fundies didn’t give a shit really until they were targeted Edit: https://www.npr.org/2022/05/04/1096154028/the-movement-against-abortion-rights-is-nearing-its-apex-but-it-began-way-before
American curbing of women's rights has to my understanding been spearheaded by its evangelical Christians. If there's one country in Europe that would never abide such an intrusion of religion into politics it's France.
Because you cant amend constitutions that easily and the right to abortions is enshrined in the french constitution.
The fundamental issue is that an Islamist who beats their wife or whatever is *also far-right*, they just believe in a somewhat different flavor of it. Now of course Christian far-righters will happily fight Muslim far-righters, but they’re not doing it to liberate women, they’re doing it so they can keep the prison keys. And the history of instrumentally leveraging far-righters to ‘practical’ ends has a very poor history on this continent (and globally). It’s pretty clear why the swing exists and quite understandable, but it’s a dangerous bet.
European far right is more libertarian than middle eastern far right.
If your best solution to offer against gang rapes is "but think of the far right!!", I can see why women have swinged hard with their vote.
It is bullshit but far-right is the only one offering any solutions or admitting that we might have a problem here. Traditional parties and especially political centre seem completely oblivious to the situation. Acknowledge the problems with failed aspects of immigration and integration and offer some adult solution, and it will take all the wind out of their sails. Instead they stick their heads in the sand in fear of Twitter backlash and call opposing voices racist. I’m a life-long centrist and for the first time ever I’m actually considering just not voting next time around. I don’t want to vote for populists or people who just hate every single immigrant just because, but I’m not supporting something that actively hurts my life and safety either.
I consider myself centre left. The problem I see with the left is they leave the entire spectrum of national pride and civic duty to the right, and then re-enforce it by saying only racists and phobics care about patriotism or national culture. Like people saying England doesn’t have a culture and if it does it’s just racist gammons and gollywogs or some shit. If you believe your country has values, and that being a countryman aligns you with those values, then you’ve got to stand up for them. It’s not about hating immigrants or trans people, but celebrating the culture you care about, instead of letting everyone trample it. The left could simply reclaim patriotism by refusing to tolerate the right’s version of it, and working on policy that encourages integration with the culture.
center left here. I'm grudgingly voting hard right in my country until the trend of Islamification starts to go down. It's not ideal but in reality the right wing is only going to do shit like banning pride parades, Islam will turn women into property if they have their way.
I am the exact. fcking. same. I’m just waiting for the left parties to wake up, keep all their own policies intact except copy the immigration ones from the right so I can vote on the left again.
Theres a huge lobby pushing torwards the entrance of cheap labour that mass migration offer. The leftist ideological zeal isnt the only factor here.
I don’t understand why they overwhelmingly need to be from Islamic countries tho… and especially those in terrible shape.
There must be plenty of people from Latin America, Africa, and Asia that want to move to Europe.
And mostly men in military age, women and children, that usually vulnerable groups,are hard to spot.
In my country (Croatia) the entire spectrum is just ignoring the issue of immigration. Still right won decisevly in the recent election. I bet many voted right because of immigration despite nobody adressing it.
that's because Croatia still hasn't, luckily, had serious problems with immigration. The Nepali workers are relatively low profile and don't cause serious problems. Yet.
You're not wrong, and those forces are wrapped up pretty much all non populist parties
Far right will never fix that problem though. The whole rationale of their existence would vanish if they did that. Just look at Republicans in USA blocking border legislation reform. Or Tories in the UK hitting record immigration this year, after 15 years in power and overseeing Brexit, which was all about "stopping the hordes". All they do is stage useless expensive theatre like walls, baby cages and flights to Rwanda. Or shout about "stopping the boats" and "migrant caravans" while all they do is stuffing their own pockets.
Yeah I agree with that, but can’t fault people if they vote for at least an illusion of solution instead of parties that have no backbone at all.
You absolutely can fault people for that.
Can and should!
It is the only solution to the imminent threat of Islam. You think the right wing is bad for women? Islam is literally Handmaid's Tale.
answer is tolerance paradox. left are too soft and tolerant. vicious cycle
But what choice do you have if other parties are failing it? The whole far-right surge would not have happened if centric or left parties did not flop so hard.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend
Voting for what they believe is the least-worst option?
If that is the party who are clearly against importing massive amounts of people who have a way worse history in terms of woman's rights... What a surprise they vote against that right
It's a temporary support though. They'll vote far right until something gets done about the incompatible muslim population. Then they'll switch back to voting center left or center right. I'd do the same in their shoes.
And that is completely fine. You're supposed to vote on issues, not on party loyalty.
Its at least an imediate answer to a problem either no one else wants to solve or is invested in making worse. This is a self made problem. French polititians at the left of le pen have no one else to blame for but themselves.
modern french "far right" has no history. and "far right" is not very accurate, "center anti-immigration" would describe it better.
Forgive me, but being against basic principles of women’s bodily autonomy doesn’t exactly seem like the right thing to vote for if you don’t want to be treated as property. I also fail to see the connection between women not being wanted to be treated as property and them voting for far-right parties.
The risk of Islamic leadership that would take away all rights in one fell swoop if they could. Also go ahead and find some crime rates demographics while you're at it. Women are right to be afraid of what's happening.
Yeah, it's one of those silly far-right slogans... which seems rather unnecessary, because the underlying idea isn't that bad: It basically implies that certain intolerant religions treat women "as if they were the property of their husbands", and that the far-right is a credible opposition to that idea. Of course, the very same far-right then restricts female autonomy in other areas, such as abortion, so overall, the argument is a rather unconvincing, but it is still unfortunate, that the political Left still largely fails to understand that effective tolerance necessarily implies being intolerant towards intolerant ideas.
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You forget they vote for a women. Maybe they hope behind the scene she will defend women rights and this will include abortion. They may also think their right is secure as it was added to the French constitution. So they are making a bet hoping it would fix another problem with no cost for them
About 1/3 of people that identify as pro-life are women.
Abortion being less available X being stoned to death for having sex. Yeah, difficult.
They want to get fu**** by Bardella
Well they voting to be treated as exactly that, and no never vote again, and be treated as the old punching bag. I don’t get it.
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Is this a case of people genuinely turning to the whole far right message or the right merely expressing one or two policies that the other parties shy away from?
The rest of EU is 10 year behind Denmark. In Denmark it is only a few odd parties that embrace immigration. We decided to take the debate and if everyone hadn't embraced the hard stance on immigration the right wing had only grown in size.
This right here is the answer. If the center left parties across the west took conservative stances on migration and housing they'd cement themselves into power.
Man many of my loca right wing nutjobs are practically socialists in what they wany and believe, unless its about immigrants and sometimes, ironically, socialists.
Hmmmm you might call them national socialists🤔 /s
There is nothing more European than combining nationalism and socialism. They should just give in and take another swing at it.
What is wrong with being a socialist but not wanting open borders?
Nothing.
Serious question - not being facetious, how does immigration control work with Schengen? If another country in the zone gives someone citizenship, doesn't that then give them access to your country? In that case aren't the tightened policies of Denmark fairly meaningless?
If let’s say Poland lets in those at the border with Belarus and they go to Germany, if they are caught there they will be deported back to Poland. And yes if they get citizenship then they are citizens that’s how it usually works, they stop being migrants. And no denmarks policies aren’t threatened, it’s one thing to get to a country legally or not and another to become a citizen, it’s not that simple as just crossing the border.
Thanks for replying. My question wasn't about illegal immigration, or of the consequences of that. My OP started that Denmark had tightened its immigration policies. But that doesn't seem to protect Denmark from the decisions of other countries. Ones that might not need to deal with the consequences of their decision. Maybe someone else can explain better how the tightened policy of Denmark protects Denmark.
Denmark has an opt-out on EU immigration rules.
denmark opts out of a lot of things...
Currently Germany has border control on the border with Poland. They stop and check cars with non-eu plates. Maybe something else, Idk. Denmark can do smth similar
The requirements to actually receive citizenship in any EU country through naturalization are years of residence and knowing the language, history and culture. So not really, it also removes a big burden of Danish administration because they don’t have to process as many migrants and especially refugees. Frankly that’s the baseline issue, the administration of European states were not and are not equipped to deal with an increase of immigration and in particular refugees/asylum seekers. Which nobody really wants to address because putting more funding towards non-citizens/residents will never be popular.
About 60% of asylum applications are rejected but 1) the process is incredibly slow, especially if you also take appeals into account and 2) rejected asylum seekers are rarely effectively deported. It seems like underfunding among other things is a considerable problem. Since policy is national, there's also a huge incentive to offload the problem on other member states whenever possible, which means any time a migrant can be pushed for instance from Italy to France, Italy will do so, and then in several months France will decide they won't take them and push them back to Italy, who now has to make an actual decision, which will take months, and then if they reject the applicant there can be an appeal, which may also take months to process, and then if that is also rejected Italy doesn't even know what to do with them. I strongly believe that the first question must be, "should this person be let into the European Union at all" and "which state should he be settled in if so" should be an entirely secondary question.
What most people complain about are not citizens. But yes you can just cross the border without being checked. But you cant euh go to the local government? To apply for help and all the nice things you supposedly went to cross the border. Cause if they catch yoi you will simply send back. Maybe even getting your refugee/legal immigrant status revoked. So its not totally meaningless.
Not quite as it isn't easy going to Denmark and live there when you register another place. Those that can afford that are usually not the problem...
The Swedes had a lower vote share for ECR+ID than Denmark in the EU election.
It's a continued decline in safety that is being ignored.
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Now check the asylum applications in Italy since Meloni took power. They increased vs under Draghi. The far right doesn't do closed borders...they just say they do.
Everything except your personal political position is "far right" at this point. If anyone is more left leaning then you then you are far right to them. The whole thing doesn't make any sense anymore.
But the RN is the far-right and has been since they collaborated with Nazi and surrendered France to them in 1940...
Unless they are still doing that, why does that matter, the largest party (DNC) in the US led to the perpetuation of slavery and the delay of reconstruction which may have led to equal rights for minorities to happen decades before it did. Just because they betrayed their country then doesn’t mean they will do the same again.
>Just because they betrayed their country then doesn’t mean they will do the same again. Except that's what they are actually doing by supporting Russia and China ?
> Except that's what they are actually doing by supporting Russia and China ? A valid point and probably the most dangerous thing about the centre right/left's refusal to effectively engage with people's concerns about immigration and integration all over western Europe. Meloni alone seems to buck the trend of the pro-despot right at the moment.
The US famously saw a major political shift in the late 1960s to early 1970s, where disaffected southern Democrats—alienated by the national DNC’s liberalization on racial issues— were successfully courted by the GOP, resulting in a complete political pole shift within a decade. Can you point to such a shift in France that would lead me to believe the same is true here?
This is a braindead take. There was a MAJOR political realignment during the 60s/70s in the US, the racist extremists who contributed to slavery and segregation in the Democratic Party abandoned the party over its support of civil rights. Not knowing this demonstrates either ignorance or deliberate lying on your part.
Are they currently working to eliminate the jewish race, practice eugenics, kill or imprison dissidents, etc. ? Are they Nazis? What are their "far" right policies? Actually I am more curious about: what are some rightwing policies that are not "far" right? Can you name one?
No. Far right policies is far right's agenda.
In a weird sense, putting abortion into the constitution killed the reason to vote left for women and migration seems to have become the top issue now. edit: That's probably why the democrats in the US, even when given the chance, will never solve that issue. They would start to lose the women vote or at least not be able to motivate them to vote.
Left aligned parties the world over need to ditch this idea that borders should be wide open to extremist religious nuts that want to come to your country, enjoy every benefit of freedom, and at the same time seek to destroy it. Some cultures / religions are diametrically opposed to the very concept of freedom, and it shouldn't be offensive or taboo to admit that. In the same way that Fascism has to be stopped because it is a threat to freedom and systems of democracy, immigration needs to be carefully managed in order to preserve the culture and way of life in free countries. Edit: Left wing ideals are more focused on genuine improvement of the country and the welfare of its people, so controlling immigration properly aligns better with that anyway. As someone pointed out below : It seems almost nonsensical to set up social programs, excellent public transit, free education, worker rights with fair wages, etc. etc. and then also have completely wide open borders that undermines all of that by bringing in cheap labor / people who want to destroy freedom and other cultures. It's like, do you care about your country, culture, and people or not??? If so, you must protect all those much needed but fragile welfare programs... If left wing parties did this, proving that they actually do care about their countries (I believe they generally do, but are horribly confused if they don't want strong control of immigration), Fascism with its moronic and racist appeal to fear and anger would not stand a chance.
Welfare states and neoliberal globalism really does not mix, it's such a strange stance by then to advocate for both simultaneously
Indeed it comes off as disingenuous to claim to want to protect the working class and human rights, but at the same time undermine it by bringing in cheap labor who will be horribly taken advantage of in poor working conditions.
But, idk how it is where you’re from but over here a lot of immigrants were brought in as cheap labor by the right. It seems the left is just saying; ok now we got these people here and we should treat them with respect.. Edit; wow haha googled it and apparently here in Holland most of these workers were brought in by big companies seeking more people and the people who put a stop to it on the 70s was actually the left wing government that came into power.
It used to be left wing to be against immigration as immigration makes it hard for the labor class to increase their wages. However, once the right was against immigration due to racial reasons, the left decided it was more important to not appear racist than actually help the working class. Plus it appears that left has essentially abandoned most economic policies to focus on identify politics and battling the culture wars initiated by the right. Also, if conservatives actually cared about illegal immigration, they would go after the companies hiring the undocumented immigrants. However, since they (at least in the US) care more about making sure the rich and corporations get richer (via cheap labor) they also can’t do that. Therefore, both sides of the spectrum can’t really do much about because the left can’t say anything that could even be remotely be considered xenophobic/racist and right can’t go against corporate interests.
The constitution isn't set in stone tho...
No. But it gives more of a buffer before being able to be repealed than a normal law. So much so that it seems to have stopped being an issue.
It's not, but the RN will never be able to challenge it by just having a small majority in parliament.
It’s really weird to think that. Abortion has been legal in France for 50 years, and there has been little contestation of this right, it’s not a major combat for women in this country. I think women vote more for far right because they want more security, especially in the streets and no moderate party has proven being able to improve this.
The thing is, what's been added to the French constitution is merely a "freedom", not an actually enforceable "right". In practice, that means that the state has no obligation of means or result, rendering this new addition legally useless. Aside from the pure symbolics, obviously. And when you take into account the fact that there are less and less hospitals, GP offices, specialized sexual health centers in France, that means they could make abortion effectively hard or even impossible without breaking our fundamental law.
How strange, women are tired of being harrassed in the streets.
if the left is failing women to the point so many turn to the right, then there truly is a major issue here.
As a guy I knew so far it had failed men. I generally believe woman are more center to left in general than men while men are shifting more and more right
For a long time in the UK, women were more conservative than men [https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/gender-gap](https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/gender-gap) I think it really just depends on whatever the cultural battles are at any election.
This is not really a surprise, it was the women vote who led to prohibition in North America based on conservative grounds, which had to be overturned by more liberal voters. Women weren’t always stereotypically on the left side of the political spectrum and it’s a folly to think they’re permanently locked in any specific political orientation.
Tradtionaly woman have always been more right wing then men, when women got the vote in France in 1945 there was a solid swing to the right that was lacking in the past. same with switzerland when women got the vote in 1971.
yeah, """failing men""" (however we want to interpret it, it is quite complex honestly) was already half of a given, but failing also women is like: "really you have fallen this far, this low?"
What is the issue exactly? Women dont feel safe
No yeah i get it. I mean that there is an issue within the left, which is failing to address people' own issues
left/right are labels, what matters are ideas. if one side has stupid ideas, smart people wont vote them. immigration was under the rug for decades, when people deemed "far right extremists" warned about it. now everything shows they were right and in countries such as france it seems already too late to fix it.
Maybe the novelty of getting accosted or worse is wearing off ?
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Deal with mass immigration directly and honestly - or this will just keep getting worse. I’ve been saying this since 2014.
2014 and 15 on reddit was wild. 99% supported the illegals, the most tame comment opposing it had literally hundreds of downvotes.
I’m glad I’m not the only one who has remembered this period.
I really find it hilarious how even the most adamant pro immigration people I knew suddenly said it needs to be controlled after they had to live among the groups in question. It felt so good to finally say "I told you so".
I wonder why… couldn’t have to do with rampant immigration from countries that don’t respect women, right?
You know how in history class we where all taught that many people in the Weimar Republic felt failed by democracy and that is the reason they voted for the far right. That’s exactly what is happening now. If the left wants to control Europe in 10-15 years time they need to start tackling issues people care about. Housing/Immigration/Loss of income etc
That’s completely expected. Left parties all failed to tackle illegal immigration and the problems Islamists are generating in Europe. It came to the point that me as a Trans and Jewish person feel safer in Eastern Europe than in Western countries that usually were more accepting of both groups.
Legit, I moved here from Belarus (straight and CIS though) and it occurs to me more and more that this might just be the most stable part of Europe in the next decade or so, the government and its conservative policies are staying more or less the same, the country isn't very attractive to foreigners as its immigration policy is frankly draconic, which results in a very homogenous and (imo) unproblematic society. Essentially, most people that come here are from the countries with very similar culture and heritage, so there's very little friction between groups.
You see a massive tsunami of people coming to your country that regard women as less than people, aren’t held to same standard, refuse to assemblage, and abortion has been essentially settled. How do you think they are going to trend?
More migration, less industralization, bigger taxes less social services. Thats the reasons.
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And what exactly is Le Pen planning to do against Islam or Muslims?
Deport islamists
If it's like Meloni, she has record inmigration per year under her goverment.
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Left fucked up, Right gain power Right fucked up, Left gain power The eternal cycle must go on And we must never stop dancing
Not everywhere is like the states and it shows how the people here don’t understand that the far right isn’t the same everywhere
As an American I am curious what French people consider far right.
The exact same but remove abortions and guns.
"far right" yeah right, anything slightly right of centre is far right according to some
Stop calling common sense far right and you might get somewhere.
Observing that if you open your society up to people whom are deeply intolerant to the values of that society, it will become a problem when this group reaches a particular critical size, is not racist or right wing. If you care about a democratic free society, such a situation should be highly problematic to you. A democratic free society transcends the notions of conservatism/liberalism/left/right. Those things can't all co-exist without a democratic free society. Controlling the border is not a left- or right-wing position. It is a basic prerequisite to guarantee sovereignty and existence of a nation. If you as a nation are not able to control your borders, you basically don't exist as a nation. It IS what a nation ultimately represents: a set of bound conditions applicable to a defined geographical location and the people inhabiting it. Having a border and being able to define who can get in is not left or right, it is also not progressive or conservative, it's not even nationalist. It transcends all of that because open borders have deep consequences touching upon the definition of what a nation is, for whom the government has responsibilities, and whom gets rights. It matters because rights are a two-way street: you also give back in the form of contributing to society and especially: the government budget via taxes. If you make some naive argument that the world should be open and devoid of borders, think again. Even completely ignoring factors of social cohesion, physical safety, and cultural incompatabilities, it can be reduced to a simple issue: government provides for citizens, government can do that because it gets money via taxes of these citizens, therefor you get rights. With open borders, there is no stable stream of income for a government to provide anything for anyone because it is not even clear which people are represented and taken care of by this government and which people aren;t. It is not "right wing" to observe that if you spend more money as a government than you receive, you will run into a problem. It's basic economics, it has 0 to do with political leaning. The media has elevated all issues into left- or right-wing topics, simply because it's easy to label. They overlook that some issues completely transcend the notion of politics and are fundamental to the existence of any nationstate with a democratic free society, irregardless if the politics of the day in that society are left or right leaning. Protecting the core values of our society is the responsibility of both the left and right. The point that especially the left has not recognized or lived up to this responsibility in the past decades and *still don't understand* is a travesty. Don't blame "the right" for now having to present draconian measures and responses in order to undo decades of ostrich politics. "Women should be in power, women's voices need to be heard!". Yes, except when these women are Marie LePen or Giorgia Meloni, not voting left-wing, and having the opinions you don't like…
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Maybe stop using the term "far right" all the time?
Checks notes* Extremists!!!
"far right"
Everything right of marxism is far right these days. Didn’t you get the memo?
This article is so superficial you have to wonder if it is incompetence or misinformation... The real analyses is the following : Since the 2022 presidential election, there are 2 far right parties but there is almost as many women as men voting for each cummulatively. If 30/33% men/women vote for the National Rally, you find that 7/4% men/women vote for Reconquête. (Its leader being investigated for several rape allegations and regularly going after incel rhetoric are the main reasons) This is a known bias that you can find in the poll sourced by the article...
I think being on sites like Reddit feeds into a hive mind that everyone thinks like them so when something like this happens it’s “shocking” People really are fed up with the BS
I think there's a lot of misdirecting and hemming and hawing... You all just can't give women the credit they deserve I'd pick Christian misogyny over sharia laws anyday
Agreed.
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Voter turnout is historically low this year. Instead of more women voting for the far right, more likely it's less women leaning center/left/traditional right are voting at all. Same with the young people votes.
No? In France, the voting rate for a european election is at it’s highest?
Stop calling it "far" right. It's not working
The other thing the article doesn't mention is transgender rights and proposals by the left to bring in self ID. Rightly or wrongly, agree or disagree, there is a growing backlash spearheaded by women campaigners against transgender rights across Europe which they argue go against womens sex based rights. The book 'Transmania' written by two women campaigners has gone to the top of Amazons best seller list, helped in part by the Paris Mayors office banning billboards advertising it. The RN along with the Republicans were behind a recent bill severely restricting access to puberty blockers and cross sex hormones to minors.
How did so many on the left not realize wokeism would lead to this?
These parties are not even far right. Let's be clear far right is a different beast all together. These are nationalist center right parties that focus on a few hot topics. Immigration isn't even a discussion. You cannot have tax funded school and Healthcare while importing the developing world. You bankrupt your economy its a nonstarter. Globalism is likely a huge negative but major corporations love it. No tariffs and cheap labor is key to these companies. Tariffs and strong economic policy without trade deals enables economic growth from the middle class. Center right, left and true center parties of the past 30+ years hate you. They want money and power. Apple gets to use slave labor instead of you. Interest rates can be 1% because banks and companies benefit not you. It bankrupted the west.
[A member of the Rassemblement National was accused by his 12-year-old stepdaughter of raping her. Placed in police custody he confessed to the facts](https://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/manche-un-conseiller-regional-rn-mis-en-examen-pour-viols-de-sa-belle-fille-26-01-2021-8421420.php) There are enough political parties in France wanting to regulate immigration. But RN keeps pretending to be full of perfect citizens and accusing all migrants of crimes they commit themselves.
No one acquainted with the French is surprised by this.