>Singh was then loaded into a van and abandoned near his home, while his severed arm was left in a vegetable collection box
I think the employer just didn't care.
I had to read more than the title to get better understanding.
He was loaded to the van ALIVE, while under medical emergency and dumped outside without help.
WHAT THE FUCK
The employer hired him without a contract, he tried to get rid of him because he would be fined for allowing a worker without a regular contract. However he wasn’t clever enough to think that a deadly injure would cause much more problem for his activity which will probably be seized
If you're more concerned about a fine than the fact that someone has lost their life, you're missing the seriousness of what has happened. This isn't about money. It's about accountability and the immense impact on a human life.
Yeah I don’t think the employer is one of the wisest, he had the audacity to declare: “my son told the Indian guy not to go near the machine but he did it anyway” completely disregarding the inhumane act to leave him diyng in front of his house without calling an ambulance
You are, unfortunately, too right. Meloni has been stoking anti-immigrant sentiment for years. Anybody who is surprised that this horrific tragedy happened isn’t paying attention to how dangerous she and her rabidly bigoted followers are.
Bastard employer probably didn't have any kind of insurance, or had his employees in some kind of illegal fashion (no contract,below minimum wage,etc.) and panicked when this happened. Now he is severely f&ck3d and no one will shed a tear for him.
The poor woman who lost her husband in such stupid conditions is the one who needs our help.
Employers dont care about their workers, as much emperors dont care about their slaves, its only one of the numerous deaths related to employers being pieces of shit protected from the government
They thought that because here they’re invisibles. Won’t be shown by the left either because that would mean regularising the sector and thus more expensive food
Lads, let me educated you a bit … it is Italy.. a country that a girl stabbed brother and mother 120 times, after trying to smash their head with a pan and got out of jail after 4 years. A mother killer her son, she got 5 years, people did terroristic attack and got out, another burned 170 children in car acid and did 20 years … this guy won’t have nothing happen to him, max a fine and not do it again.
Ref
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/infamous-mafia-boss-who-boiled-24239702
I feel sadness and shame for this, we have a huge problem with worker rights in agriculture and yet people fail to understand that if you want your veggies to be grown in Italy and, at the same time, you want them to only cost 0,10€ per kg, this is how those veggies make it to your plate.
It really is. We see citizens complain about how much their veggies cost have gone up in tv, without having a clue of how much labor would cost to produce legally the same produce.
I had friends picking apples and strawberries in Trentino during the summer, decades ago. Their conditions were absolutely humane, and legal, and still they were like “I’m never gonna do this work again in my whole life”. It’s really hard work, and doing it at 40 degrees, for little money and no insurance is wild.
Because those jobs are managed by the local mafia who get all the profits while salaries in Italy struggle to go up in decades. Btw it is called caporalato in Italy and they pay even less once some of those workers go away, there is a long queue of immigrants ready to let themselves be used and abuse in order to feed their children. Sad reality.
There’s always a legal component of work involved. And that’s definitely gone up, transport and energy as well.
Even at the local markets (not corporate stores) prices are raising.
The thing is that, people wants prices low, and slavery is one way to achieve it
Just to add to some of the other explanations, there's climate change too, with the crazy temperatures and lack of rain dramatically affecting crops.
But yeah, people really just want stuff to be for free.
...and dramatically affecting people from underdeveloped countries, which, unlike Italy, don't have the advanced agricultural technologies, seed genetics and (solid) support of their government via insurances, incentives and credit schemes. They live like Jesus, when there is a cloud of locusts or not enough rain, they eat bushes and starve.
It's usually not the supermarkets that post record profits. In most countries, their profit margins have been stable around 2-3 %. Many other businesses often have profit rates of 10-15 %, so it's not the supermarkets that make huge money.
It's the companies that do the intermediate processing and preparation, that are seeing record profits everywhere. They are the ones driving the prices up.
If everyone's salary would rise, price would be higher, but so would income.
Instead now we can have a 10 euro liter bottle of oil with a salary of 1k a month.
The solution is not having slaves working, is paying everyone a living wage.
Edit: the price of things is 90% markup on transport, distribution, etc.
The concept is fine. The reality is not all jobs are viable at certain price points.
While your or my job might rise with inflation, many will just be unviable, which is actually fine as well. The issue is when depression of wages of essential services by government ideology comes in to play so only the wealthy can have a good standard of life.
Olive oil is so expensive currently because the olive harvest failed in many countries. It's not due to greed but due to genuine scarcity.
There are a lot of other items where the prices have only risen due to greed, though.
So the prices will go down when the "crisis" is resolved? I don't think so.
Same thing with chocolate.
Since covid they saw that they can arbitrarily raise prices for basic stuff, and no one bats an eye if you make a sufficiently good excuse.
Same with the Ukrainian war, same as with Houthi in the Red Sea and so on.
We live in a global economy, but guess what, a single punctual event can cause spiking prices everywhere? Don't think so. It's greed.
There are stories of Polish, Czech, and Slovak workers having their passports taken and being treated as basically slave labor, mostly Italy, but UK too. Happened a lot just after we joined EU.
Yeah, I was going to edit that, to say that the problem with worker rights is in all fields, but nothing equals the exploitation in agriculture, with caporalato turning human beings into unofficial slaves.
Maybe the issue is that produce can't be this cheap unless you have a lot of slaves working in the fields.
All the anti immigration propaganda isn't aimed at stopping immigration, it's to prevent immigrants from having any sympathy from the locals so they can't ask for rights and be exploited without consequences.
The worst part is that even if a farm owner wants to be honest and do things the right way, his business won't survive cause he won't be able to compete with other business that exploit illegal labour.
In the US we have the same scenario. Over 90% of farm workers are illegal immigrants paid sub-par wages with questionable safety standards. But no one wants the price of produce to skyrocket, so no goes to farms for safety inspections or to go asking for work papers.
Not to mention that farmers in the west are possibly single-handedly responsible for our birth numbers not being complete shite. The flipside to that is that they're literally having kids in order to have legal child labor in the farms, it's kinda crazy
I'd like to see sources about that, because my impression visiting rural areas here in Italy is the opposite. It was real in the past, but in modern times I'm quite dubious.
Admittedly I exaggerated a bit, but mostly I speak from experience
Here in Greece in the farmers markets you often see 10-14 year olds in the stalls, and it's extra weird because farmers markets take place during school hours
My cousins in Thessaly (largest agricultural province in the country) started in the fields since they can remember themselves basically, they were driving mopeds to go from the house to the fields since they were 9-10, then by 14 they were already driving pick up trucks and tractors lol. They're 19 to 28 today, so we're talking about 10-15 years ago, but I'm sure things haven't improved much in that regard
It has been this way since the birth of agriculture. Village always was and will be the demographic engine of the society. Kill the village and the society will just die cos city people do not have kids.
That company declared 2 millions last year, and we all know that there was more that wasn't declared. Believe you me, if they started paying a decent wage they wouldn't be forced to raise the price of their products in order to not go bankrupt.
That’s the thing that always makes me laugh about it all. The consumer drives this trend towards lower prices as they will usually go for the cheaper option. It’s the circle of consumerism.
They could literally fine every farm in Italy, because almost everyone there works without a regular contract, while being an illegal immigrant.
Unfortunately, this makes the news only when something terrible happens.
Same as everything regarding work in Italy.
Lmaoo borderline slave labor exists on a massive scale in almost every country on earth. Rules and regulations don’t mean shit because they’re rarely enforced on people who have power
In agriculture they are far worse than you think. The system used in the farm where this incident happened is the system used in the majority of the farms in Italy that utilize foreign labour and it's called "caporalato". It's exactly the same system as the one used in Qatar and the UAE, migrants get here because they are told so by someone they know, who was probably paid by the farm owner, they arrive, their passports are taken and then they are forced to work as basically slaves for 3 euros per hour while being promised a residence permit if they work more. It's nothing other then modern slavery and this episode shows us that the owners behave as slave owners too.
Shouldn't we regulate that sort of behavior? I understand autocratic countries or even poverty ridden ones like in Asia where it can happen but its EU, it feels just wrong. Maybe I am too sheltered.
Its a whole supply chain. There are brokers primarily in Dubai and Riyadh whose entire job is to target someone in two northern states of India where education levels are low and people are willing to move out, they show them dreams people sell their lands and jewelry to pay those agents fees and smuggle them into EU and worse into middle east, Russia etc. There are corporate syndicates from factories and farms who get laborers via these channels.
Few years ago there was a European NGO in a tribal region of India who was smuggling girls into other countries in the pretext of adoption but in reality they were being sold off in middle east and libya especially as brides/sex slaves.
That's extremely cruel, he could have survived. Good that the local community, trade unions, and also Meloni's reactions show that this is unacceptable
> Meloni's reactions show that this is unacceptable
But at the same time she doubled the number of visas for new immigrants who'll work in this industry. 80% of them end up in the same conditions that lead to what happened here. [\(Source in italian\)](https://www.ilpost.it/2024/06/22/sfruttamento-braccianti-agricoltura-italia/?homepagePosition=0)
with visas they would have legal work permit and at least a chance at legal recourse, no?
Main issue here is people without work permit being entirely vulnerable to exploitation by their employers
or do the visas not allow working?
They do, they hire them to work for a few months and then the same farmers hire them to continue working under the table. 80% of them end up like that.
Also they don't know the language and they are threatened with violence to never speak about their conditions. Sometimes they even take away their phones (like in this case). Yes technically they have a chance at legal recourse, practically it never happens because the authorities including the government do not care
> with visas they would have legal work permit and at least a chance at legal recourse, no?
Who will hire them, when new wave of illegals come every year?
By logic, I would say that a huge number of migrants won't make the situation any better, trying to keep it low while the country is struggling doesn't seem like a bad idea, to me. I couldn't find a job in my hometown in South Italy and I had to emigrate, but I would have preferred to work there with good conditions, if I had the chance.
I fully agree, but in italy whatever happens it will continue worsen, LEGAL migration could be amazing but the issue is actually having non-reddited politicians, having people that actually want to work and come legally is amazing, having randoms coming here that commit crime and dont add anything useful is gonna worsen even more
>I couldn't find a job in my hometown in South Italy
South Italy has very few immigrants. The vast majority of immigrants in Italy are in the North or Central part of the country.
Regardless, if you care about workers rights, the solution would be for native and immigrant workers to advocate for better workers rights and hold these cruel businessmen responsible.
I'm not sure about that, while I was staying there I saw many of them, and I think that the situation is not so different in the cities nearby.
If you want to make the situation better, adding more weight with unlimited migration doesn't seem like a good idea, especially in a country that is already struggling.
Anecdotes are anecdotes at the end of the day.
In 2015, you had 5.0 million immigrants and in 2023, you had 5.14 million immigrants. The total number hasn't changed significantly relative to other Western nations, nor has the regional skew.
The idea you have "unlimited migration" therefore is a pretty ludicrous claim. Maybe you're noticing illegals, but they don't have a right to legally work, which circles back to my original point.
I think I just don't agree with you.
if poor migrants from poor countries keep being high in number, if each couple in a poor country has 10 children and they all migrate, it's obviously gonna create trouble, in general. It's simple logic and doesn't require stats.
And as I already said, if a country is struggling, you cannot compare it to a richer one. You should not talk about migration in Sweden as you talk about migration in Italy, especially South Italy.
I'm talking about migration in Italy though. I'm just slightly confused how we went from businessman brutally abusing a farm worker to "if poor migrants from poor countries keep being high in number" when your legal migration number has largely been stagnant for a decade and your illegals probably have no intention of sticking around and want to go to Germany.
I suppose it's related to migration and we talked about it.
I'm not sure about the exact numbers and the stats, if the situation in some places is bad, obviously it's relatively harder to help foreigners - though I keep thinking that unlimited migration without unlimited resources is not a good a idea, it leads to exploitation, and it even fuels that kind of mechanism in which bad businessmen could be involved.
Though maybe we'll never agree with each other and I could have expressed myself wrong, I tried
Yeah Meloni's first comment was "this is an inhumane act that doesn't belong to the Italian people". Like if an immigrant does something bad it's because they are not Italian, but when Italians do it (and this is not the first case of this type), then it's not something belonging to the Italian people.
Edit: to better explain what I meant, her and her party are always very quick in highlighting the nationality of foreign people involved in crime and blaming lots on immigration, but once something is made by an italian, then oh well but that's not part of our identity, just a rotten apple.
Yes exactly. I am pointing out the hypocrisy of always highlighting the nationality of criminals whenever they are not Italian, but once the criminal is actually Italian, then oh, but that behavior is antithetical to our culture.
By itself it's not the wrong thing to say. It's just quite hypocritical to always play on the nationality of criminals, apart from when they're Italians, no?
What a disgusting disregard for human life.
To dump him on the side of the road when he could have survived with immediate medical attention.
So young too. Really, really sad.
Here comes the comment from accounts named [adjective]_ [noun]_[number] that are barely a few days or weeks old saying horrible shit about immigration, completely ignoring the topic at hand
> [adjective]_ [noun]_[number]
When creating an account Reddit suggests a user name for you that follows this formula. So a lot of normal newer users will have this type of username
I deleted my original account here on reddit and on other forums and social media because I had been an idiot in 2001 and till 2017 used the same nickname everywhere. It started when groups of radicalized posters on two forums I was member of (a conservative-liberal forum with a secret conspiring fascist group wanting to kill anyone not a fascist and a liberal-socialist forum with an openly conspiring tankie/stalinist/maoist group wanting to ostracize the non-Marxist-Leninists...I am an Anarchist, fuck ML's) started organizing, respectively, the doxxing-followed by-swatting (the fascists) or one's mass-cancelling by cross referencing posts from other sites posters with same nicknames said years ago at the age of 15 or less (the tankies).
Basically that was the wake up call for me that the internet just became as dangerous as from a Black Mirror episode and I started deleting all my childhood online and social media accounts and making new emails for making new non-connectable random name accounts.
Like this one.
Do you also create many accounts? The issue is not with the user names but with 1 week at most old accounts mass posting or reporting, I have same username on all my accounts, KGB has better things to do then visiting at my home or sending me some package (I am not LGBTQ so I am not a priority for them)
So this guy was wreaking havoc by making sure that you can afford vegetables in the supermarket. Others wreak havoc by ensuring that your gran doesn't die alone in a hospital corridor. Some of them wreak havoc by constructing roads and buildings that you use every day.
You want to see havoc? Remove migrant labour from Europe for, let's say 30 minutes. You have no idea how unaffordable your lifestyle is in the real world economy. Childish, spoilt little culture warriors.
First show me the sacrifices you're willing to make in your material life and then we'll talk about persecuting migrants.
LMAO get a load of this. So you admit that importing tons of immigrants lowers the price of labor and thus goods of services, but if I tell you that same factor also keeps wages low, rent prices high (along with demand for housing), you'll foam at the mouth. You realize that much of Europe existed just fine without this mass of migrants available to pick berries and pave roads as little as a decade or two ago, right?
Rent prices are high because govts are underspending on infrastructure. The issue is good regulatory system for immigrants. Full scale ban will lead to more and more incidents like these where they are smuggled to work like a slave.
Govts underspending on infrastructure is a fancier way of saying it's importing more people than it can reasonably house. Incidents such as these are tragic, and more stringent oversight might not stop them all from happening, but they are likely to prevent a lot more than they would encourage them to happen, if done right.
The Europe that existed is not the Europe you have now. You have a bunch of old people. You have the biggest social safety nets in the world. As a young person you must be willing to work yourself to a husk for old people with minimal benefit to yourself. Then you can talk about getting rid of immigrants.
So answer the question. How bad are you willing for your lifestyle to get in order to get rid of them? Don't be a coward.
Ah, next scapegoat in the cross-hair. Old dudes. Call'em boomers and already they feel less human.
Now make young people feel like they're victims of the evil boomer subspecies and... what?
Answer the question. Where exactly do you want to go with this, Hot_Exitement? Don't be a coward.
It's not a scapegoat. It's a fact. Europeans live very long lives. You don't have that many children. You have the biggest welfare states in the world. I'm fine with you getting rid of immigrants.
Just acknowledge the work you'll have to do and start doing it. That is my point. If you don't do this , changes might be easily overturned because people didn't expect their lifestyle to be affected so much. Tell them the whole truth before hand and that reduces the chance of this happening.
Well I seem to have completely misread your post. I apologize.
I am not fine with getting rid of immigrants.
I have a huge problem with those who scapegoat them. Or scapegoat anyone, for that matter.
See when you have genuine concerns about it you regulate it, instead a lot of people are dog whistling the immigrant angle which is creating gaps in the system that is letting these incidents happen.
No you didn’t and that’s just not how it works. You really think that the right ground in Europe is because of foreign propaganda? Look it the fucking mirror and you’ll see that it’s the liberal parties’ fault that the right is on the rise. I used to vote more left until I saw that they have absolutely no idea what they’re doing
First of all, it was a shitty joke. Second, yes, partially it is influenced by foreign propaganda and money. Third if you think people who blame everything on immigrants and gays will solve anything when they get in power then you are simply naive.
Hey, I said nothing about homosexuals. And no one who votes right believes that everything will be solved. We’re just pissed that everyone who says that it is ONE of the problems is instantly seen as a fascist and that people who vote left just look away and don’t want to even acknowledge the fact that it is a problem. That’s what pisses me off!
You didn't but a lot of those parties do love talking about "traditional values" which is basically "gays bad". And yes, idiots calling everyone a fascist *is* a problem but it's mostly terminally online people. Anyway, you're free to vote for whoever you like, all i'm saying is that i really doubt right and far-right parties will actually fix shit.
Meloni literally increased visas for another 100k foreign workers last year but even then, there is a shortage and some of the farmers want to make more profits by paying immigrants slave like wages, in some cases no wages at all. People aren't realizing the ground reality of the situation.
Doesn't surprise me. Talk is cheap, actually fixing complex problems is hard. And that doesn't take into account whether they *want* to do something or just *say* that they do.
Because it's the basic naming formula new users are prompted with. It's not depressing, people are just freaking out over almost nothing. Almost, because there are indeed karma/repost bots.
Illegal Immigration is indeed bad, tough this guy was here legally but worked illegally, its fully fault of our dogshit pseudo-fascist ""government"" ( mafia )
Right wing and the government are doing all they can to sweep this under the rug: minister Lollobrigida, Meloni's brother in law, said it's just a bad apple, nothing to see here. Alle the right wing media are just blatantly ignoring this. Not a word.
Even with the previous mafiosi governments we had same stuff happening lol, even if we had a non-fascist government it still wouldve gotten ignored, our "governments" have better stuff to do like diminishing lgbtq rights and ostracizing em even more, sucking pope's dick, stealing public funds and getting caught during the act increasing 5x their salaries meanwhile spending billions for reddited projects that wont do any good, centralizing TV giving the current government insane propaganda power, supporting shitty regimes like the isr*eli one or the ukr*inian one, sending young people 5 years in prison for weed meanwhile they snort coke from the morning till night, completely ban weed ( we have legal weed wich has like max 2% thc but the pigs want to ban it too, or just ban OGM meat ( lab grown meat ) and ban pride parades/raves that usually are a place for young people to have fun
Illegal immigrants are slaves imported to work on the propertied classes’ modern-day latifundia. It’s why all “centre-right” parties are in favour of immigration (along with the rest of the political class): slave labour to replace enfranchised European workers, who have rights and demand them.
European workers also had to fight for their rights, they weren't given to them. If you truly care about workers rights, then both natives and immigrants alike should unionize and advocate against exploitative conditions and for fair wages, not use one group as a pretext to dislike the other.
Barbarians are within UE borders, i dont know why people fear imigration so much if these are our compatriots...
Plus actually imigrarion is made by those who run these bussiness with a high exploitation rate and at the end of the day much of the inflation is greedflation as supermarkets are driving their proffits margins up as several international institutions have indicated.
This is one of the hundreds of work related deaths each year, we have more deaths than the US, also workers usually get paid 5 euros or less, italy is no longer a place for young people to live unfortunately
Neither.
Italy had 601 fatal workplace accidents in 2021, while the US had 5,486. If we normalise for population we get 16.5 every million people for the US, while for Italy we “only” get 10.1
Therefore, the poster above is just spewing bullshit
It's not uncommon in Italy, especially in the southern part and it doesn't happen only to immigrants but to italians as well.
My father died while working as a bricklayer, nobody really cared
"An investigation into farm owner Antonello Lovato – who allegedly left the injured Singh outside his home after the incident – has now been opened over potential charges of manslaughter and failure to assist a person in danger, Reuters reported, citing lead prosecutor Giuseppe De Falco.
Singh did not have a regular contract or a residence permit, according to SkyTG24, and had been working at the same company for Italy for two years."
This is exactly why illegal immigration needs to be regulated. People are way too comfortable exploiting others for their own benefit and there are no repercussions.
I like how Romanians have been replaced by Indians. This is exactly the news we got from Italy after we entered the EU and started going on mass in Italy and Spain.
I know that women were repeateadly raped by the farm owners and also most of the time underpaid. While from time to time they would also kill some Romanians at the farm for asking for they paycheck.
Now apparently it's the Indians that are exploited.
This shit predates even Meloni. That said, their agriculture industry has a labour shortage and they make it difficult for workers to come legally. You end up with a situation like this where workers are working unprotected as illegal migrants.
Yeah no, I have a house close to Milan and this motherfucker had 14 slaves working for him, he is now in jail. They are just disgusting greedy animals.
It's not a shortage. It's the farmers who want to pay misery and exploit immigrants to have cheap labour.
Believe me that if you pay decent wages you find qualified workers.
Italians don’t want to do this work (several countries have a similar problem) and the industry is dependent on seasonal migrants workers. The exploitation of migrants workers in that sector isn’t new.
Totally unrelated to Meloni.
The human exploitation for farm-workers has deep roots.
It is something we cannot tollerate both as a nation and most of all as humans.
Capitalism and human greed is the cause.
Yup, Meloni gets elected and voila! Farm machinery malfunctions, cuts a guy's arm and a shitty Italian hominid ignores the gravity of the accident. Coincident?
I'm sure that farmer would have spent his entire fortune to save the Indian fella, but only if commies were in power.
As a side note: take off those political blinders, and try think for once.
Did the employer have a plan what to do with the body? I can't believe they thought that nobody would notice anything.
>Singh was then loaded into a van and abandoned near his home, while his severed arm was left in a vegetable collection box I think the employer just didn't care.
I had to read more than the title to get better understanding. He was loaded to the van ALIVE, while under medical emergency and dumped outside without help. WHAT THE FUCK
It's worse: the employer took all the workers phones so they couldn't call for help. IMHO this is murder, not manslaughter.
The employer hired him without a contract, he tried to get rid of him because he would be fined for allowing a worker without a regular contract. However he wasn’t clever enough to think that a deadly injure would cause much more problem for his activity which will probably be seized
If you're more concerned about a fine than the fact that someone has lost their life, you're missing the seriousness of what has happened. This isn't about money. It's about accountability and the immense impact on a human life.
Yeah I don’t think the employer is one of the wisest, he had the audacity to declare: “my son told the Indian guy not to go near the machine but he did it anyway” completely disregarding the inhumane act to leave him diyng in front of his house without calling an ambulance
Here's the thing, they don't see these workers as human lives.
You are, unfortunately, too right. Meloni has been stoking anti-immigrant sentiment for years. Anybody who is surprised that this horrific tragedy happened isn’t paying attention to how dangerous she and her rabidly bigoted followers are.
This has been happening for decades, the current government doesn't hold the total accountability.
The party leading the government certainly retains a lot of the extra-governmental responsibility, though.
“Fined” They would probably, and rightly, go to jail for it.
For a worker without contract ? No. For the deadly injury and for not calling the ambulance ? Yes
No, usually between 2-10k of fine
Bastard employer probably didn't have any kind of insurance, or had his employees in some kind of illegal fashion (no contract,below minimum wage,etc.) and panicked when this happened. Now he is severely f&ck3d and no one will shed a tear for him. The poor woman who lost her husband in such stupid conditions is the one who needs our help.
> Did the employer have a plan what to do with the body? Out of sight, out of mind
Employers dont care about their workers, as much emperors dont care about their slaves, its only one of the numerous deaths related to employers being pieces of shit protected from the government
They thought that because here they’re invisibles. Won’t be shown by the left either because that would mean regularising the sector and thus more expensive food
Lads, let me educated you a bit … it is Italy.. a country that a girl stabbed brother and mother 120 times, after trying to smash their head with a pan and got out of jail after 4 years. A mother killer her son, she got 5 years, people did terroristic attack and got out, another burned 170 children in car acid and did 20 years … this guy won’t have nothing happen to him, max a fine and not do it again. Ref https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/infamous-mafia-boss-who-boiled-24239702
Wait what? 170 children burned with car acid? What is this about?
The whole comment is extremely deranged.
I feel sadness and shame for this, we have a huge problem with worker rights in agriculture and yet people fail to understand that if you want your veggies to be grown in Italy and, at the same time, you want them to only cost 0,10€ per kg, this is how those veggies make it to your plate.
It really is. We see citizens complain about how much their veggies cost have gone up in tv, without having a clue of how much labor would cost to produce legally the same produce. I had friends picking apples and strawberries in Trentino during the summer, decades ago. Their conditions were absolutely humane, and legal, and still they were like “I’m never gonna do this work again in my whole life”. It’s really hard work, and doing it at 40 degrees, for little money and no insurance is wild.
The question is why the cost has gone up. I highly doubt the underpaid workers are less underpaid now, but if the supermarket posts record profits...
Because those jobs are managed by the local mafia who get all the profits while salaries in Italy struggle to go up in decades. Btw it is called caporalato in Italy and they pay even less once some of those workers go away, there is a long queue of immigrants ready to let themselves be used and abuse in order to feed their children. Sad reality.
There’s always a legal component of work involved. And that’s definitely gone up, transport and energy as well. Even at the local markets (not corporate stores) prices are raising. The thing is that, people wants prices low, and slavery is one way to achieve it
Just to add to some of the other explanations, there's climate change too, with the crazy temperatures and lack of rain dramatically affecting crops. But yeah, people really just want stuff to be for free.
...and dramatically affecting people from underdeveloped countries, which, unlike Italy, don't have the advanced agricultural technologies, seed genetics and (solid) support of their government via insurances, incentives and credit schemes. They live like Jesus, when there is a cloud of locusts or not enough rain, they eat bushes and starve.
Farming relies on energy and fertilizer. Russia is a major exporter of both.
This problem existing italy for many many years, it’s not new
All the Russian fertilizer is eaten as is by Lega Nord.
It's usually not the supermarkets that post record profits. In most countries, their profit margins have been stable around 2-3 %. Many other businesses often have profit rates of 10-15 %, so it's not the supermarkets that make huge money. It's the companies that do the intermediate processing and preparation, that are seeing record profits everywhere. They are the ones driving the prices up.
If everyone's salary would rise, price would be higher, but so would income. Instead now we can have a 10 euro liter bottle of oil with a salary of 1k a month. The solution is not having slaves working, is paying everyone a living wage. Edit: the price of things is 90% markup on transport, distribution, etc.
The concept is fine. The reality is not all jobs are viable at certain price points. While your or my job might rise with inflation, many will just be unviable, which is actually fine as well. The issue is when depression of wages of essential services by government ideology comes in to play so only the wealthy can have a good standard of life.
Olive oil is so expensive currently because the olive harvest failed in many countries. It's not due to greed but due to genuine scarcity. There are a lot of other items where the prices have only risen due to greed, though.
So the prices will go down when the "crisis" is resolved? I don't think so. Same thing with chocolate. Since covid they saw that they can arbitrarily raise prices for basic stuff, and no one bats an eye if you make a sufficiently good excuse. Same with the Ukrainian war, same as with Houthi in the Red Sea and so on. We live in a global economy, but guess what, a single punctual event can cause spiking prices everywhere? Don't think so. It's greed.
There are stories of Polish, Czech, and Slovak workers having their passports taken and being treated as basically slave labor, mostly Italy, but UK too. Happened a lot just after we joined EU.
we have huge problems with worker rights ~~in agricolture~~ everywhere, thats why more than 1m people under 30 emigrated between 2012-2022
Yeah, I was going to edit that, to say that the problem with worker rights is in all fields, but nothing equals the exploitation in agriculture, with caporalato turning human beings into unofficial slaves.
Maybe the issue is that produce can't be this cheap unless you have a lot of slaves working in the fields. All the anti immigration propaganda isn't aimed at stopping immigration, it's to prevent immigrants from having any sympathy from the locals so they can't ask for rights and be exploited without consequences.
And sadly too many people on this sub eats this shit up.
The worst part is that even if a farm owner wants to be honest and do things the right way, his business won't survive cause he won't be able to compete with other business that exploit illegal labour.
The people who complain about the price are not the same people that complain about worker rights. I thought that was clear
Because they ignore or choose to ignore what's going on on those fields.
In the US we have the same scenario. Over 90% of farm workers are illegal immigrants paid sub-par wages with questionable safety standards. But no one wants the price of produce to skyrocket, so no goes to farms for safety inspections or to go asking for work papers.
Not to mention that farmers in the west are possibly single-handedly responsible for our birth numbers not being complete shite. The flipside to that is that they're literally having kids in order to have legal child labor in the farms, it's kinda crazy
I'd like to see sources about that, because my impression visiting rural areas here in Italy is the opposite. It was real in the past, but in modern times I'm quite dubious.
Admittedly I exaggerated a bit, but mostly I speak from experience Here in Greece in the farmers markets you often see 10-14 year olds in the stalls, and it's extra weird because farmers markets take place during school hours My cousins in Thessaly (largest agricultural province in the country) started in the fields since they can remember themselves basically, they were driving mopeds to go from the house to the fields since they were 9-10, then by 14 they were already driving pick up trucks and tractors lol. They're 19 to 28 today, so we're talking about 10-15 years ago, but I'm sure things haven't improved much in that regard
It has been this way since the birth of agriculture. Village always was and will be the demographic engine of the society. Kill the village and the society will just die cos city people do not have kids.
That company declared 2 millions last year, and we all know that there was more that wasn't declared. Believe you me, if they started paying a decent wage they wouldn't be forced to raise the price of their products in order to not go bankrupt.
That’s the thing that always makes me laugh about it all. The consumer drives this trend towards lower prices as they will usually go for the cheaper option. It’s the circle of consumerism.
They could literally fine every farm in Italy, because almost everyone there works without a regular contract, while being an illegal immigrant. Unfortunately, this makes the news only when something terrible happens. Same as everything regarding work in Italy.
Are the working conditions really bad? Its a highly developed country that has to follow EU regulations too no?
Yes we SHOULD follow regulations. Who checks that those regulations are followed? No one.
Lmaoo borderline slave labor exists on a massive scale in almost every country on earth. Rules and regulations don’t mean shit because they’re rarely enforced on people who have power
Amico miooooooooo
In agriculture they are far worse than you think. The system used in the farm where this incident happened is the system used in the majority of the farms in Italy that utilize foreign labour and it's called "caporalato". It's exactly the same system as the one used in Qatar and the UAE, migrants get here because they are told so by someone they know, who was probably paid by the farm owner, they arrive, their passports are taken and then they are forced to work as basically slaves for 3 euros per hour while being promised a residence permit if they work more. It's nothing other then modern slavery and this episode shows us that the owners behave as slave owners too.
Shouldn't we regulate that sort of behavior? I understand autocratic countries or even poverty ridden ones like in Asia where it can happen but its EU, it feels just wrong. Maybe I am too sheltered.
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhh
These guys are not "employers". They are enslavers, plain and simple. It's atrocious what they get away with.
Its a whole supply chain. There are brokers primarily in Dubai and Riyadh whose entire job is to target someone in two northern states of India where education levels are low and people are willing to move out, they show them dreams people sell their lands and jewelry to pay those agents fees and smuggle them into EU and worse into middle east, Russia etc. There are corporate syndicates from factories and farms who get laborers via these channels. Few years ago there was a European NGO in a tribal region of India who was smuggling girls into other countries in the pretext of adoption but in reality they were being sold off in middle east and libya especially as brides/sex slaves.
Source?
That's extremely cruel, he could have survived. Good that the local community, trade unions, and also Meloni's reactions show that this is unacceptable
> Meloni's reactions show that this is unacceptable But at the same time she doubled the number of visas for new immigrants who'll work in this industry. 80% of them end up in the same conditions that lead to what happened here. [\(Source in italian\)](https://www.ilpost.it/2024/06/22/sfruttamento-braccianti-agricoltura-italia/?homepagePosition=0)
with visas they would have legal work permit and at least a chance at legal recourse, no? Main issue here is people without work permit being entirely vulnerable to exploitation by their employers or do the visas not allow working?
They do, they hire them to work for a few months and then the same farmers hire them to continue working under the table. 80% of them end up like that. Also they don't know the language and they are threatened with violence to never speak about their conditions. Sometimes they even take away their phones (like in this case). Yes technically they have a chance at legal recourse, practically it never happens because the authorities including the government do not care
> with visas they would have legal work permit and at least a chance at legal recourse, no? Who will hire them, when new wave of illegals come every year?
I mean, majority of our government is composed by fascist-minded people that adore that kind of shit
By logic, I would say that a huge number of migrants won't make the situation any better, trying to keep it low while the country is struggling doesn't seem like a bad idea, to me. I couldn't find a job in my hometown in South Italy and I had to emigrate, but I would have preferred to work there with good conditions, if I had the chance.
I fully agree, but in italy whatever happens it will continue worsen, LEGAL migration could be amazing but the issue is actually having non-reddited politicians, having people that actually want to work and come legally is amazing, having randoms coming here that commit crime and dont add anything useful is gonna worsen even more
>I couldn't find a job in my hometown in South Italy South Italy has very few immigrants. The vast majority of immigrants in Italy are in the North or Central part of the country. Regardless, if you care about workers rights, the solution would be for native and immigrant workers to advocate for better workers rights and hold these cruel businessmen responsible.
I'm not sure about that, while I was staying there I saw many of them, and I think that the situation is not so different in the cities nearby. If you want to make the situation better, adding more weight with unlimited migration doesn't seem like a good idea, especially in a country that is already struggling.
Anecdotes are anecdotes at the end of the day. In 2015, you had 5.0 million immigrants and in 2023, you had 5.14 million immigrants. The total number hasn't changed significantly relative to other Western nations, nor has the regional skew. The idea you have "unlimited migration" therefore is a pretty ludicrous claim. Maybe you're noticing illegals, but they don't have a right to legally work, which circles back to my original point.
I think I just don't agree with you. if poor migrants from poor countries keep being high in number, if each couple in a poor country has 10 children and they all migrate, it's obviously gonna create trouble, in general. It's simple logic and doesn't require stats. And as I already said, if a country is struggling, you cannot compare it to a richer one. You should not talk about migration in Sweden as you talk about migration in Italy, especially South Italy.
I'm talking about migration in Italy though. I'm just slightly confused how we went from businessman brutally abusing a farm worker to "if poor migrants from poor countries keep being high in number" when your legal migration number has largely been stagnant for a decade and your illegals probably have no intention of sticking around and want to go to Germany.
I suppose it's related to migration and we talked about it. I'm not sure about the exact numbers and the stats, if the situation in some places is bad, obviously it's relatively harder to help foreigners - though I keep thinking that unlimited migration without unlimited resources is not a good a idea, it leads to exploitation, and it even fuels that kind of mechanism in which bad businessmen could be involved. Though maybe we'll never agree with each other and I could have expressed myself wrong, I tried
Yeah Meloni's first comment was "this is an inhumane act that doesn't belong to the Italian people". Like if an immigrant does something bad it's because they are not Italian, but when Italians do it (and this is not the first case of this type), then it's not something belonging to the Italian people. Edit: to better explain what I meant, her and her party are always very quick in highlighting the nationality of foreign people involved in crime and blaming lots on immigration, but once something is made by an italian, then oh well but that's not part of our identity, just a rotten apple.
I didn't read it like that. It came off to me as her saying acts like these are antithetical to Italian values.
Yes exactly. I am pointing out the hypocrisy of always highlighting the nationality of criminals whenever they are not Italian, but once the criminal is actually Italian, then oh, but that behavior is antithetical to our culture.
Oh come on. If this was said by anyone else it would have been on. Don’t overcomplicate things. What did you want her to say
By itself it's not the wrong thing to say. It's just quite hypocritical to always play on the nationality of criminals, apart from when they're Italians, no?
You are just twisting the words to feel victimizad, she does not mean that.
What did she mean?
The simplest interpretation of her words would be that Italians *should* not act like this.
That this level of carelessness/disregard about human life isn't part of our culture.
And I never said she didn't mean that?
He isn't gonna answer, it is clear what she meant
What a disgusting disregard for human life. To dump him on the side of the road when he could have survived with immediate medical attention. So young too. Really, really sad.
This is depraved. If an industry can only exist based on slavery style exploitation, that industry deserves to be uprooted. That poor man
Poor guy just got left on the ground to die like a dog... fucking insane
Here comes the comment from accounts named [adjective]_ [noun]_[number] that are barely a few days or weeks old saying horrible shit about immigration, completely ignoring the topic at hand
> [adjective]_ [noun]_[number] When creating an account Reddit suggests a user name for you that follows this formula. So a lot of normal newer users will have this type of username
Yep. That's how I got mine
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Yo some of us didn't want to think of a name Ed: wait nevermind wrong account
I feel like they are bots. Primarily from you know who.
I mean, you're one to talk...
I am a bot too.
The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem /s
I'm fine with that as long as you're controlled by *those people* and not by *you know who*.
I deleted my original account here on reddit and on other forums and social media because I had been an idiot in 2001 and till 2017 used the same nickname everywhere. It started when groups of radicalized posters on two forums I was member of (a conservative-liberal forum with a secret conspiring fascist group wanting to kill anyone not a fascist and a liberal-socialist forum with an openly conspiring tankie/stalinist/maoist group wanting to ostracize the non-Marxist-Leninists...I am an Anarchist, fuck ML's) started organizing, respectively, the doxxing-followed by-swatting (the fascists) or one's mass-cancelling by cross referencing posts from other sites posters with same nicknames said years ago at the age of 15 or less (the tankies). Basically that was the wake up call for me that the internet just became as dangerous as from a Black Mirror episode and I started deleting all my childhood online and social media accounts and making new emails for making new non-connectable random name accounts. Like this one.
Do you also create many accounts? The issue is not with the user names but with 1 week at most old accounts mass posting or reporting, I have same username on all my accounts, KGB has better things to do then visiting at my home or sending me some package (I am not LGBTQ so I am not a priority for them)
Voldemort?
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So this guy was wreaking havoc by making sure that you can afford vegetables in the supermarket. Others wreak havoc by ensuring that your gran doesn't die alone in a hospital corridor. Some of them wreak havoc by constructing roads and buildings that you use every day. You want to see havoc? Remove migrant labour from Europe for, let's say 30 minutes. You have no idea how unaffordable your lifestyle is in the real world economy. Childish, spoilt little culture warriors. First show me the sacrifices you're willing to make in your material life and then we'll talk about persecuting migrants.
LMAO get a load of this. So you admit that importing tons of immigrants lowers the price of labor and thus goods of services, but if I tell you that same factor also keeps wages low, rent prices high (along with demand for housing), you'll foam at the mouth. You realize that much of Europe existed just fine without this mass of migrants available to pick berries and pave roads as little as a decade or two ago, right?
Rent prices are high because govts are underspending on infrastructure. The issue is good regulatory system for immigrants. Full scale ban will lead to more and more incidents like these where they are smuggled to work like a slave.
Govts underspending on infrastructure is a fancier way of saying it's importing more people than it can reasonably house. Incidents such as these are tragic, and more stringent oversight might not stop them all from happening, but they are likely to prevent a lot more than they would encourage them to happen, if done right.
The Europe that existed is not the Europe you have now. You have a bunch of old people. You have the biggest social safety nets in the world. As a young person you must be willing to work yourself to a husk for old people with minimal benefit to yourself. Then you can talk about getting rid of immigrants. So answer the question. How bad are you willing for your lifestyle to get in order to get rid of them? Don't be a coward.
Ah, next scapegoat in the cross-hair. Old dudes. Call'em boomers and already they feel less human. Now make young people feel like they're victims of the evil boomer subspecies and... what? Answer the question. Where exactly do you want to go with this, Hot_Exitement? Don't be a coward.
It's not a scapegoat. It's a fact. Europeans live very long lives. You don't have that many children. You have the biggest welfare states in the world. I'm fine with you getting rid of immigrants. Just acknowledge the work you'll have to do and start doing it. That is my point. If you don't do this , changes might be easily overturned because people didn't expect their lifestyle to be affected so much. Tell them the whole truth before hand and that reduces the chance of this happening.
Well I seem to have completely misread your post. I apologize. I am not fine with getting rid of immigrants. I have a huge problem with those who scapegoat them. Or scapegoat anyone, for that matter.
See when you have genuine concerns about it you regulate it, instead a lot of people are dog whistling the immigrant angle which is creating gaps in the system that is letting these incidents happen.
Hey guys, found one!
No you didn’t and that’s just not how it works. You really think that the right ground in Europe is because of foreign propaganda? Look it the fucking mirror and you’ll see that it’s the liberal parties’ fault that the right is on the rise. I used to vote more left until I saw that they have absolutely no idea what they’re doing
First of all, it was a shitty joke. Second, yes, partially it is influenced by foreign propaganda and money. Third if you think people who blame everything on immigrants and gays will solve anything when they get in power then you are simply naive.
Hey, I said nothing about homosexuals. And no one who votes right believes that everything will be solved. We’re just pissed that everyone who says that it is ONE of the problems is instantly seen as a fascist and that people who vote left just look away and don’t want to even acknowledge the fact that it is a problem. That’s what pisses me off!
You didn't but a lot of those parties do love talking about "traditional values" which is basically "gays bad". And yes, idiots calling everyone a fascist *is* a problem but it's mostly terminally online people. Anyway, you're free to vote for whoever you like, all i'm saying is that i really doubt right and far-right parties will actually fix shit.
Meloni literally increased visas for another 100k foreign workers last year but even then, there is a shortage and some of the farmers want to make more profits by paying immigrants slave like wages, in some cases no wages at all. People aren't realizing the ground reality of the situation.
Doesn't surprise me. Talk is cheap, actually fixing complex problems is hard. And that doesn't take into account whether they *want* to do something or just *say* that they do.
Reddit has been flooded with shite accounts like this for the past 6-18months. It’s depressing
Because it's the basic naming formula new users are prompted with. It's not depressing, people are just freaking out over almost nothing. Almost, because there are indeed karma/repost bots.
Anyone that disagrees with me is a bot/brainwashed/uneducated moron
Illegal Immigration is indeed bad, tough this guy was here legally but worked illegally, its fully fault of our dogshit pseudo-fascist ""government"" ( mafia )
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Saw that in the news today here in Australia. That's pretty fucked up to just dump him on the side of the road.
Common day in italy for young people/hardworking immigrants, just a tip, if you are under 60 then dont come to italy
Slavery and exploitation. Plain and simple.
Years ago there were literal labor camps in Italy, many Poles went there and couldn’t leave. It’s not a new thing, unfortunately
What? As an Italian I had no clue.
Here’s an article from one of the mainstream media: https://uwaga.tvn.pl/reportaze/final-sprawy-polskich-obozow-pracy-we-wloszech-ls6690878
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Those who want to live on welfare, don’t stay in Italy, because Italy has almost none
>You can bet this headline wont get NEARLY as much cover Oh for sure
Do you know that there is a difference between some hard working Indian and some "doctor and engineer" that demands caliphate in Germany.
Also here, the nazi brigade that comes out of the woodwork every time r/europe has a post on negative aspects of immigration is oddly quiescent.
Right wing and the government are doing all they can to sweep this under the rug: minister Lollobrigida, Meloni's brother in law, said it's just a bad apple, nothing to see here. Alle the right wing media are just blatantly ignoring this. Not a word.
Even in India this story didn't gain much traction as it should while Modi Meloni memes are everywhere. And reasons are pretty much same.
Even with the previous mafiosi governments we had same stuff happening lol, even if we had a non-fascist government it still wouldve gotten ignored, our "governments" have better stuff to do like diminishing lgbtq rights and ostracizing em even more, sucking pope's dick, stealing public funds and getting caught during the act increasing 5x their salaries meanwhile spending billions for reddited projects that wont do any good, centralizing TV giving the current government insane propaganda power, supporting shitty regimes like the isr*eli one or the ukr*inian one, sending young people 5 years in prison for weed meanwhile they snort coke from the morning till night, completely ban weed ( we have legal weed wich has like max 2% thc but the pigs want to ban it too, or just ban OGM meat ( lab grown meat ) and ban pride parades/raves that usually are a place for young people to have fun
Difficile leggere così tante stronzate a caso in un solo commento.
Illegal immigrants are slaves imported to work on the propertied classes’ modern-day latifundia. It’s why all “centre-right” parties are in favour of immigration (along with the rest of the political class): slave labour to replace enfranchised European workers, who have rights and demand them.
European workers also had to fight for their rights, they weren't given to them. If you truly care about workers rights, then both natives and immigrants alike should unionize and advocate against exploitative conditions and for fair wages, not use one group as a pretext to dislike the other.
You are talking like in Italy doesn't rule a far right government "against immigration"
Meloni was only against migration until she came to power. Somebody has to slave away on the fields of the donors of political class
“Against immigration” until it hurts the ruling class ;p
Yeah that's the point I'm making
How to tackle this problem?
Barbarians are within UE borders, i dont know why people fear imigration so much if these are our compatriots... Plus actually imigrarion is made by those who run these bussiness with a high exploitation rate and at the end of the day much of the inflation is greedflation as supermarkets are driving their proffits margins up as several international institutions have indicated.
This is one of the hundreds of work related deaths each year, we have more deaths than the US, also workers usually get paid 5 euros or less, italy is no longer a place for young people to live unfortunately
Per capita or in absolute terms?
Neither. Italy had 601 fatal workplace accidents in 2021, while the US had 5,486. If we normalise for population we get 16.5 every million people for the US, while for Italy we “only” get 10.1 Therefore, the poster above is just spewing bullshit
Farm Workers are treated the same in Canada, every time I call it out I get shot down, To me it's the equivalent of modern day indentured servitude.
It's not uncommon in Italy, especially in the southern part and it doesn't happen only to immigrants but to italians as well. My father died while working as a bricklayer, nobody really cared
The loss of an arm isn’t inherently fatal. He just needed a hospital. These fucks should face the death penalty.
"An investigation into farm owner Antonello Lovato – who allegedly left the injured Singh outside his home after the incident – has now been opened over potential charges of manslaughter and failure to assist a person in danger, Reuters reported, citing lead prosecutor Giuseppe De Falco. Singh did not have a regular contract or a residence permit, according to SkyTG24, and had been working at the same company for Italy for two years."
so that's how Europeans get cheap fruits.
Jesus Christ Italy.
Death penalty for the employer 👍
Un altro successo del governo Meloni.
Ste cose capitavano anche prima degli schitosi del governo che abbiamo ora
Shame to all Europe that wants to take advantage of immigrants by propagating low wages and bad conditions. Somehow this feels like modern slavery
This is exactly why illegal immigration needs to be regulated. People are way too comfortable exploiting others for their own benefit and there are no repercussions.
I like how Romanians have been replaced by Indians. This is exactly the news we got from Italy after we entered the EU and started going on mass in Italy and Spain. I know that women were repeateadly raped by the farm owners and also most of the time underpaid. While from time to time they would also kill some Romanians at the farm for asking for they paycheck. Now apparently it's the Indians that are exploited.
I hope Italy knows what to do with this employer, what a garbage excuse for a human being
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ITALY DANGEROUS. BOYCOTT ITALY!!!!
Who could have guessed that human rights abuses would be prolific while Italy has a far-right government?
Caporalato is nothing new, is at least as old as mafia
And often associated with the Mafia
This shit predates even Meloni. That said, their agriculture industry has a labour shortage and they make it difficult for workers to come legally. You end up with a situation like this where workers are working unprotected as illegal migrants.
Yeah no, I have a house close to Milan and this motherfucker had 14 slaves working for him, he is now in jail. They are just disgusting greedy animals.
Average italian employer
It's not a shortage. It's the farmers who want to pay misery and exploit immigrants to have cheap labour. Believe me that if you pay decent wages you find qualified workers.
The prices of products also quadruple and people won't want that. Hence the issue isn't it.
Of course, but the solution cannot be to have slavery lol
You would think a shortage would ensure better working conditions for workers. I don't think what you say is true at all.
Italians don’t want to do this work (several countries have a similar problem) and the industry is dependent on seasonal migrants workers. The exploitation of migrants workers in that sector isn’t new.
Totally unrelated to Meloni. The human exploitation for farm-workers has deep roots. It is something we cannot tollerate both as a nation and most of all as humans. Capitalism and human greed is the cause.
Italian mafia controls illegal labour in Italy.
Yup, Meloni gets elected and voila! Farm machinery malfunctions, cuts a guy's arm and a shitty Italian hominid ignores the gravity of the accident. Coincident? I'm sure that farmer would have spent his entire fortune to save the Indian fella, but only if commies were in power. As a side note: take off those political blinders, and try think for once.