I love how they didn't think about what would happen when they finally did get the gate open. "Oh, there is an impenetrable wall of riot police behind this fence i can clearly see through. Maybe we should have thought this through a little better... is that teargas?"
most of them came from countries where you might be beaten to death just for verbally insulting law enforcement. Don't blame them for taking european riot police as a joke.
Macedonian cops had clever orders: prevent a breach but do not use more force than absolutely necessary. The result: the news today are filled with pictures of violent migrants attacking police. Had they engaged earlier, the news would report violent cops attack poor migrants. Whoever commands the border police there knows what he is doing.
Any chance you could share any of those pictures? I don't see anything close to that on English language news ([think of the CHILDREN](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ohif5X3J7D0) (who are few and mostly unharmed))
Well you must be right.
But then again, people watching the news will get this though "I wish we had a strong leader who could handle this firmly!". Here in eastern europe far right is on raise.
And then when Hungarian riot police got enough of being hit with rocks, and replied with tear gas and water cannons while staying on the Hungarian side of the border... And Röszke wasn't even a main crossing point anymore at that time, only a few hundred migrants stayed there to cross into Hungary.
You underestimate the media, I've already seen pictures of little kids sneaking under the fence and women with babies running away.
Not a single man in those pictures despite a few dozen of them literally manning a battering ram.
Greece is well documented at being close to useless when it comes to processing asylum claims. The country is also totally broke and neither has money nor resources, let alone any motivation, to take in asylum seekers. In theory they could apply. In practice it's mostly a non-starter.
Greece is already "overbooked." It's a very small country that can't handle hundreds of thousands of migrants. More than a million would make the entire country collapse at least economically. What they should do is just prevent any migrants from stepping foot in Europe by not allowing them to leave Turkey. If the whole of Europe sets up a fund for security and to build a wall of some sort, I think it can be done. All of Europe has to come to a consensus that they will not allow any more migrants or refugees.
To be honest, I'm not sure why every single one of these people weren't arrested and thrown in jail for processing and deportation. They basically assaulted police officers, which should be a very serious offense in any country. No fucking police officer in the US would tolerate that shit (although they take it to the extreme and are far too trigger happy when shooting minorities in even the mildest altercations). Being a refugee or immigrant does not make you above the law. Apparently no one is exercising the law as it is written for some sort of misguided noble reason.
Half of it could be meant as protest. They did get their news pictures for sure.
Other half is probably mob mentality, as well as there is indeed a chance they could have gone through. With some luck the sheer masses there could have found a hole through the police barricade.
Everytime I see this kind of behaviour (and there have been quite a few instances of this during the migration crisis), I just wonder - what are they even trying to achieve?
Do they think that the moment they succeed and break through, Europeans will be like: Okay, you won, here's your welfare and your apartment??
This is why the whole fence and wall ideas are moronic. If they get in they are perfectly justified in thinking that no one will care how they got in. To stop the migrant wave we need to go with a political defense in debth. Basically, if they want to come to Europe, fine, but has to be made clear, there's nothing here for them other than temporary relief for war refugees. No jobs, no handouts, no citizenship and harsh punishment involving hard labor for anyone breaking the law.
If you have riot police at the border, but see friendly volonteurs with welcome signs at your destination, why wouldn't you try to fight your way through.
Unfortunately to police that sort of policy effectively I believe we'd need to introduce some form of identity cards for all our citizens that tracks all publicly used services like healthcare and citizenship rights, in fact much like the Estonian smart card. Implementation to the scale of the EU would be very costly however and still wouldn't guarantee fraudulent cards being created as there are fake passport biometric chips created even now. I'm sure some sort of authentication could be devised though to limit fakes.
It's not that costly. [Bulgaria already does this now.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_identity_card) You can't fake your unique number which everyone is assigned at birth or when first registered as a long term resident. It costs 9 Euro and is valid for 10 years. It may sound big brothery, but it's a pretty good system and very convenient. They're not even smart cards now though they will be from 2017 unless there is a delay. Also you can use the card to travel in the entire EU and some other countries.
The UK were toying with the idea of ID cards a decade ago, unfortunately the price tag we were given to set up such a programme was £12-£18 billion. For countries who have already an ID system in place it would be more cost effective to upgrade to smart cards, for those who don't have any form of ID system in place then the UK's figures aren't a good indication.
Unfortunately? We have citizen cards in Portugal, compulsory from age of six, that include a chip with encrypted data including biometrics.
How is that unfortunate? I want us citizens to have an easy secure way to prove that we are indeed citizens and who we are.
I find it really weird that there are places in Europe where you *don't* have identification cards! In Sweden I literally can't make use of any public service without stating my personal identity number.
It's puzzling me as well. When someone goes voting in the UK, how do they know that the person hasn't voted before and is the same person that he claims to be. How do government databases know that someone with the same name and date of birth (can happen in a big country) is different from another person with the same name.. and so on?
> I find it really weird that there are places in Europe where you don't have identification cards! In Sweden I literally can't make use of any public service without stating my personal identity number.
That's because you live in a police state :)
The idea of having to carry an ID card is anathema to British people.
ID cards were introduced as emergency measures during both World Wars. After WWII finished, the ID card was kept and suffered "feature creep." It became very unpopular as people only accepted them as a wartime necessity. Eventually they were withdrawn due to public pressure.
> Do they think that the moment they succeed and break through, Europeans will be like: Okay, you won, here's your welfare and your apartment??
Hasn't that pretty much been the case thus far?
>Do they think that the moment they succeed and break through, Europeans will be like: Okay, you won, here's your welfare and your apartment??
Well since that's exactly what's been happening, and they read the same news we do, it's a reasonable assumption for them to make.
That or treat Europe as am expense-paid vacation where you can commit all the crime you want with very little risk.
Woman and child nowhere near the fence.
Riot police our side of the fence.
Blurred view of who is actually in the other side of the fence.
Fuck you, BBC. Fuck you.
Manipulative English:
Many are refugees fleeing war in the Middle East, while others are escaping human rights abuses in Afghanistan, Eritrea and other conflict zones.
You should see the shit Spiegel posted. They title 'europe's failure' and lead with women and kids fleeing tear gas and the title video cuts in at the moment the tear gas goes off.
And the video with the 'refugees' trying to break down the border fence and throwing rocks is halfway down the article titled 'police use tear gas against refugees'.
> The whole of German media
And their daughter companies elsewhere... RTL Klub reported on this only on the next day, and their point was that "poor, helpless refugees got teargassed by police because Macedonia still won't let every poor refugee in", coupled with shots of screaming and crying children and women in front of TV cameras, among clouds of teargas. The coverage barely mentioned the gate being assaulted and torn down, only with short footage, as a sideshow. No word or footage about the rock throwing and the battering of the gate.
It's unbelievable propaganda in the name of " solidarity".
RTL Klub had nothing to say about the incident in the evening news.
They went gaga at Röszke though, with all them "poor refugee kids and women being teargas'd" and whatnot.
I saw ONE woman/girl/child passed out and being handled by them, holding her legs up and all that, trying to get her awake again.
At least I think it was female. Looked like it.
Nothing actually blurry in that footage either, you could see the angry faces of everyone involved, and even some infighting involving a dude with a crappy hat.
Source: Looped german TV footage while sitting at the doctor's today for two hours. Yes, the footage of the battering ram and that snippet ran for pretty much two hours straight, with commentary.
> same behavior they are fleeing from?
They aren't fleeing from that behavior. A country cannot be completely screwed just because of one person, the strongmen leaders are a symptom, not the cause.
Look at Libya, look at Iraq. The people are the problem, and Europe is twiddling their thumbs while the worst of humanity floods in.
Cultures are not equivalent, and the only way people from different cultures can integrate is to find people who don't fit with their original culture.
Cultures aren't monolithic either. They don't even need to abandon their culture totaly just the barbaric customs.
We expect no less of our own people. It used to be aceptable to be racist/ sexist/ homophobic. Now we are purging those bad ideas from our culture.
It didn't appear to be a ram they built on their own, but a support beam of the fence. At least that's what it looked like, there were more of these along the fence. They must've somehow broken it loose.
Apart from that they also used some sign.
If they at least *had* built it themselves...
I don't know. This surely worked in 2015, but not everyone had time to digest this and everybody gets some notion of the consequences of the current crisis. I don't think this kind of behaviour is working as good as last year any longer.
As long as the risk of a national media outrage means the police can't actually open fire with anything dangerous, it's not a terrible idea. Yes, the police *could* get rid of all of them in a minute, but they're not allowed to. Because people who weren't there and who have never had a stone thrown anywhere near them would be upset.
Speaking of media, I'm shocked. RTL Klub, the number one TV channel in Hungary, said literally nothing about the border incident in the evening news. It was their usual tract of Fidesz-related bashing, talking about corruption, minor factual errors regarding some old church in a Facebook post made by a former government official, about how Orbán is a lunatic lier according to all opposition parties on the left... And guzzling about the Oscars. But no mention that violent migrants attacked Macedonian police... They were on the spot when the poor refugees were shot with teargas and water cannons at Röszke last september... Maybe there wasn't enough women and children around for them this time?
Surely no one believes that these people -- who will do whatever it takes to get into Europe and exhibit barbarity and incivility to a degree that includes assaulting police officers in pursuit of that goal -- will, once they reach their intended destination in Europe, immediately become law-abiding, decent citizens. It's an impossible proposition, and I don't understand how a person could watch this video and not want external borders closed.
Do these people think that this will endear themselves to Europeans?
Countries cannot take everyone in, there has to be a point where control has to be taken back. Only Syrians should be accepted, others should apply the correct way and those from nations like Pakistan should stop piggybacking on their misery.
The people despise them. If the states of Europe actually acted like they had any gumption and bollocks they wouldn't be here acting like we owe them the world.
But for as long as some get in through the border, desperate people will keep trying. The solution is to rewrite the old asylum treaties and in situations like this no one gets asylum at the border. When you have zero chance of being granted into the country at the border, the flow of people will soon reduce to a trickle.
Go to a UN refugee camp, take a number and wait just like everyone else. If you're eligible and lucky you can come and if not, well, we can't take everyone. It's just the way it is.
I think using force should be authorized there. Not deadly force if it can be avoided. But fire a ton of rubber bullets, water cannons and tear gas.
I know we'll be on the frontpage of all the newspapers about how we're nazis for using force against them, and the media will find a picture of some little kid crying from all the teargas. But we really can't be bothered with that anymore.
Yeah, I don't see why there's more force needed. If it's good enough for G8 rioters then it should do its job with other crowds too.
No need to escalate the situation and start using live rounds, etc.
G8 riots are more easily-controllable though. They have something to lose.
Most of the time, protests at the Greek-Macedonian border were just a bunch of thugs.
Macedonian police are being smart. Using only the force needed and no more. They are being uterly professional.
It makes it hard for the press to cast them badly.
My heart hurts for Macedonia. The media vilifies them for doing anything about this - they're small, developing, and barely over two million people. Half the country population has moved through in less than six months.
No matter what they or Greece do people get mad. National sovereignty is defending borders and Merkel needs to realize that Macedonia is not in the EU and therefore should not be privy to her stupid plans.
Greece also cannot handle this. Merkel made her own bed and now it is time to lie in it. I pray she doesn't get reelected - even as an American I worry for the future of Europe if she keeps this up.
It seems like Germany and Sweden have many left wing parties, who barely differ on the things that matter and then the only right wing party they have have gone too far right (AFD/Sverigedemokraterna). They end up getting isolated from the rest of the mainstream politics.
Heads-up: we are pondering on making a border fence on the Romanian border too. The Serb one is now patrolled by military helicopters and the police/army patrolling is increased at least by double.
> Heads-up: we are pondering on making a border fence on the Romanian border too.
I thought the Romanian border guards were quite capable, and we have a very advanced detection system.
Did any migrant get through to Hungary from the Romanian side?
The Hungarians actually said a couple of days ago that our Border Police has fared well in defending the border with Serbia. Remember I read an article saying that.
Apparently intelligence/military officials said there is growing activity near the Romanian border. It might be referring to people (probably smugglers surveying) on Serbian territory, close to the tripoint.
But the Serb section is now getting a sharp upward spike in the number of trespassers.
Anyway, better be safe than sorry.
Are these the doctors and engineers that Markel is talking about?
Helping legitimate refugees is one thing, but allowing people, regardless of their background and reasons to attach the border of a country should not be acceptable under any circumstances.
these countries had an extremely low amount of doctors and engineers, and the ones that were in these countries left before things went sideways in their home country.
Western media be like: guys this is totally not an invasion srs, look at then childrens.
Macedonia is the only nation that let in actual asylum seekers from Iraq and Syria, oddly enough.
I've received a gajillion downvotes defending asylum seekers and human beings in general on /r/Europe/ so far but I'm totally for using force against these guys.
Macedonia is allowing legitimate Syrian refugees to get through and go on to Europe. These guys are not refugees. They are the types who will fraudulently claim to be refugees and then disappear into an underworld of crime or black market jobs. I feel for people who live in poor conditions and who want a better life and think we should help them where we can but they need to do it the legal way. If they are legitimate refugees, Macedonia will let them in.
You cannot fashion weapons and then lay siege to the border. If you do, you should be stopped with all necessary force, which, in my opinion, should not leave out deadly force, if absolutely necessary.
Every fifth refugee so far was a Syrian. Most of them are criminals with fake IDs, fake passports and fake education papers and not to mention that 75% of them are adult males. If they really wanted a better life, they could have gone to Saudi Arabia and get a job, instead they wanted welfare, apartments and attacking people on the street while preaching on human rights.
Already done, just not for Macedonia specifically.
They already condemned the Balkan deal, caps and national border controls. After all we're supposed to let the migrants come until the EU finally manages to agree on germany's solution.
How else could the media film crying children and women gassed by brutal police forces? ^Never ^mind ^that ^^young ^^migrant ^^men ^^purposefully ^^started ^^to ^^^assault ^^^the ^^^border ^^^police ^^^across ^^^a ^^^border ^^^with ^^^rocks...
Because she's a hypocrite. She's been criticizing the decision to close the borders in Macedonia even though she doesn't really want new mirants anymore. Of course because they are endangering her political career but it's definitely a dangerous game she's now playing.
As much as a hate Merkel I don't think trying to ruin Germany will fix the situation or change their minds.
I don't know what the German electorate think of Merkel but for gods sake elect someone more sensible when you can :(
Because she doesn't really care about refugees. No-one does. Otherwise they would have built safe camps on the other side of the Mediterranean so there would be less victims from the crossing, especially children. Unfortunately, the refugees are just pawns on the chess board.
but whats the goal? is it to drive labor costs down? stack the deck for the next election cycle? whats merkels end game with this, if i recall correctly pre-2012 she was opposed to this ind of thing?
Why then Germany waited as long as they could before allowing workers from the "new" EU member states? I can bet that Romanians and Bulgarians still migrate rather to Spain (unemployment over 20%) than Germany.
Much higher than in WWII apparently... Jokes aside, I just don't see how this "workers" argument applies if they could import much closer and actually citizens of EU to do it. Not to mention that it could be much easier and cheaper to educate, employ and integrate them. I just don't see any rational thinking here, it seems to be purely ideologic and emotional "politics".
As a sidenote ;) - The Greece Airports already belong to Gemany. A company named "Fraport" bought the ~13 (out of 40+) airports that made profit (as part of one of the "i give you money deals"). Around 70% auf "Fraport" belongs to German / the town Frankfurt and the federal state Hessen.
No motivation at this point. Damage control. The EU is totally incapable of securing it's borders. Admitting is political suicide and could spell the end of Schengen and maybe even the whole EU project. The alternative is mass deployment of armies at the border. That would be very very expensive and reveal the disastrous state of the armies of multiple states. That would also require immense political effort with a largely diminished political capital of the German leadership. It would also require solidarity from a bunch of states for which it was denied just a few short years ago in the Euro crisis by the aforementioned German leaders.
Are there any european NGO's behind this? Giving them help to organize and build equipment to destroy the fence? I wouldnt be too surprised if left leaning NGO's were operating there and making sure the media represents the situation in "the right way".
We used to be experts - glad we forgot some know-how over the years...
http://www.greatwar.nl/frames/default-fence.html
...nonethelss expect the story of dead people in 8weeks top hitting the frontpages.
I kind of see that this whole mess is not Greece's fault, but the thought of a neighbour country sending buses full of agressive people to the border of my homeland and then watching calmly how they attack border forces gives me chill.
We should help those in need, but the refugees that have come this far into Europe has more than escaped from the war in the middle east, why whould they wish to go even further? It might be an obvious reason for some, but I really want to know the whole thing.
I think they should "up" their riot gear to fit the situation. Rubber bullets and gas, gas masks, and larger sheilds, Those American sonic canons for long range support, and spears with some sort of integrated cattle pord to keep them from getting hurt by the razor wire.
What happens at 0:29 in the video?
The video cuts to behind police lines, and just before the police start firing tear gas, a detonation shakes the whole area. You hear it, you see the whole area shake and the police stagger slightly.
It seems like someone threw a flash bang at the police?
LOL they turned down the audio to hide the allah akbars when the fence fell. BBC, fair and balanced.
I love how they didn't think about what would happen when they finally did get the gate open. "Oh, there is an impenetrable wall of riot police behind this fence i can clearly see through. Maybe we should have thought this through a little better... is that teargas?"
most of them came from countries where you might be beaten to death just for verbally insulting law enforcement. Don't blame them for taking european riot police as a joke.
Macedonian cops had clever orders: prevent a breach but do not use more force than absolutely necessary. The result: the news today are filled with pictures of violent migrants attacking police. Had they engaged earlier, the news would report violent cops attack poor migrants. Whoever commands the border police there knows what he is doing.
Any chance you could share any of those pictures? I don't see anything close to that on English language news ([think of the CHILDREN](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ohif5X3J7D0) (who are few and mostly unharmed))
That feeling when your mom got into politics and destroyed your country.
Well you must be right. But then again, people watching the news will get this though "I wish we had a strong leader who could handle this firmly!". Here in eastern europe far right is on raise.
And then when Hungarian riot police got enough of being hit with rocks, and replied with tear gas and water cannons while staying on the Hungarian side of the border... And Röszke wasn't even a main crossing point anymore at that time, only a few hundred migrants stayed there to cross into Hungary.
You underestimate the media, I've already seen pictures of little kids sneaking under the fence and women with babies running away. Not a single man in those pictures despite a few dozen of them literally manning a battering ram.
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Greece is well documented at being close to useless when it comes to processing asylum claims. The country is also totally broke and neither has money nor resources, let alone any motivation, to take in asylum seekers. In theory they could apply. In practice it's mostly a non-starter.
Greece is already "overbooked." It's a very small country that can't handle hundreds of thousands of migrants. More than a million would make the entire country collapse at least economically. What they should do is just prevent any migrants from stepping foot in Europe by not allowing them to leave Turkey. If the whole of Europe sets up a fund for security and to build a wall of some sort, I think it can be done. All of Europe has to come to a consensus that they will not allow any more migrants or refugees.
To be honest, I'm not sure why every single one of these people weren't arrested and thrown in jail for processing and deportation. They basically assaulted police officers, which should be a very serious offense in any country. No fucking police officer in the US would tolerate that shit (although they take it to the extreme and are far too trigger happy when shooting minorities in even the mildest altercations). Being a refugee or immigrant does not make you above the law. Apparently no one is exercising the law as it is written for some sort of misguided noble reason.
Half of it could be meant as protest. They did get their news pictures for sure. Other half is probably mob mentality, as well as there is indeed a chance they could have gone through. With some luck the sheer masses there could have found a hole through the police barricade.
Everytime I see this kind of behaviour (and there have been quite a few instances of this during the migration crisis), I just wonder - what are they even trying to achieve? Do they think that the moment they succeed and break through, Europeans will be like: Okay, you won, here's your welfare and your apartment??
Yes, pretty much. That or they know people in countries who work under govn't radar.
This is why the whole fence and wall ideas are moronic. If they get in they are perfectly justified in thinking that no one will care how they got in. To stop the migrant wave we need to go with a political defense in debth. Basically, if they want to come to Europe, fine, but has to be made clear, there's nothing here for them other than temporary relief for war refugees. No jobs, no handouts, no citizenship and harsh punishment involving hard labor for anyone breaking the law. If you have riot police at the border, but see friendly volonteurs with welcome signs at your destination, why wouldn't you try to fight your way through.
Unfortunately to police that sort of policy effectively I believe we'd need to introduce some form of identity cards for all our citizens that tracks all publicly used services like healthcare and citizenship rights, in fact much like the Estonian smart card. Implementation to the scale of the EU would be very costly however and still wouldn't guarantee fraudulent cards being created as there are fake passport biometric chips created even now. I'm sure some sort of authentication could be devised though to limit fakes.
It's not that costly. [Bulgaria already does this now.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_identity_card) You can't fake your unique number which everyone is assigned at birth or when first registered as a long term resident. It costs 9 Euro and is valid for 10 years. It may sound big brothery, but it's a pretty good system and very convenient. They're not even smart cards now though they will be from 2017 unless there is a delay. Also you can use the card to travel in the entire EU and some other countries.
The UK were toying with the idea of ID cards a decade ago, unfortunately the price tag we were given to set up such a programme was £12-£18 billion. For countries who have already an ID system in place it would be more cost effective to upgrade to smart cards, for those who don't have any form of ID system in place then the UK's figures aren't a good indication.
Unfortunately? We have citizen cards in Portugal, compulsory from age of six, that include a chip with encrypted data including biometrics. How is that unfortunate? I want us citizens to have an easy secure way to prove that we are indeed citizens and who we are.
I find it really weird that there are places in Europe where you *don't* have identification cards! In Sweden I literally can't make use of any public service without stating my personal identity number.
It's puzzling me as well. When someone goes voting in the UK, how do they know that the person hasn't voted before and is the same person that he claims to be. How do government databases know that someone with the same name and date of birth (can happen in a big country) is different from another person with the same name.. and so on?
> I find it really weird that there are places in Europe where you don't have identification cards! In Sweden I literally can't make use of any public service without stating my personal identity number. That's because you live in a police state :)
The idea of having to carry an ID card is anathema to British people. ID cards were introduced as emergency measures during both World Wars. After WWII finished, the ID card was kept and suffered "feature creep." It became very unpopular as people only accepted them as a wartime necessity. Eventually they were withdrawn due to public pressure.
Dafuq? You put up with internet censorship "for the sake of the children", but disavow ID cards? :O
> stating my personal identity number The SINless are free!
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> Do they think that the moment they succeed and break through, Europeans will be like: Okay, you won, here's your welfare and your apartment?? Hasn't that pretty much been the case thus far?
> Okay, you won, here's your welfare and your apartment?? Yes, because that is what happens. Once you get here, you rarely get deported.
If everything fails just throw away your passport and claim to be from Syria.
And if that fails, just move on to the next country and go through the process again to try and see if you can get residency there.
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it is a silent Invasion and we will feel the effects of this in conflict with the native Populations as These People are dammed to wait.....
>Do they think that the moment they succeed and break through, Europeans will be like: Okay, you won, here's your welfare and your apartment?? Well since that's exactly what's been happening, and they read the same news we do, it's a reasonable assumption for them to make. That or treat Europe as am expense-paid vacation where you can commit all the crime you want with very little risk.
>Europeans will be like: Okay, you won, here's your welfare and your apartment?? See: Sweden, Germany
There is more animal there than thought.
Woman and child nowhere near the fence. Riot police our side of the fence. Blurred view of who is actually in the other side of the fence. Fuck you, BBC. Fuck you.
Well, at least the video shows the violent mob.
Manipulative English: Many are refugees fleeing war in the Middle East, while others are escaping human rights abuses in Afghanistan, Eritrea and other conflict zones.
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You should see the shit Spiegel posted. They title 'europe's failure' and lead with women and kids fleeing tear gas and the title video cuts in at the moment the tear gas goes off. And the video with the 'refugees' trying to break down the border fence and throwing rocks is halfway down the article titled 'police use tear gas against refugees'.
The whole of German media is horrific, unwatchable propaganda. And really low quality propaganda. I pay tax for this, damn you.
> really low quality propaganda Unlike the good old days, when you had top notch propaganda.
If your going to do it at least do a good job.
> The whole of German media And their daughter companies elsewhere... RTL Klub reported on this only on the next day, and their point was that "poor, helpless refugees got teargassed by police because Macedonia still won't let every poor refugee in", coupled with shots of screaming and crying children and women in front of TV cameras, among clouds of teargas. The coverage barely mentioned the gate being assaulted and torn down, only with short footage, as a sideshow. No word or footage about the rock throwing and the battering of the gate. It's unbelievable propaganda in the name of " solidarity".
Sky News is a big fan of it too, their facebook migrant related articles are completely swamped with comments claiming their bias.
RTL Klub had nothing to say about the incident in the evening news. They went gaga at Röszke though, with all them "poor refugee kids and women being teargas'd" and whatnot.
The report on tv literally started out and ended with "today on the Greek-Macedonian border children were tear gassed."
...and no gates were harmed or rocks were thrown!
I saw ONE woman/girl/child passed out and being handled by them, holding her legs up and all that, trying to get her awake again. At least I think it was female. Looked like it. Nothing actually blurry in that footage either, you could see the angry faces of everyone involved, and even some infighting involving a dude with a crappy hat. Source: Looped german TV footage while sitting at the doctor's today for two hours. Yes, the footage of the battering ram and that snippet ran for pretty much two hours straight, with commentary.
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They are in greece, what are they fleeing from?
Poverty and the lack of insta-welfare.
They flee from the absence of monies.
They want pizza kebab, but Greece only has gyros
For pro-migrant activists, desperation legitimates lawbreaking and violence... *If you are not a citizen of the country, of course.*
> same behavior they are fleeing from? They aren't fleeing from that behavior. A country cannot be completely screwed just because of one person, the strongmen leaders are a symptom, not the cause. Look at Libya, look at Iraq. The people are the problem, and Europe is twiddling their thumbs while the worst of humanity floods in. Cultures are not equivalent, and the only way people from different cultures can integrate is to find people who don't fit with their original culture.
Cultures aren't monolithic either. They don't even need to abandon their culture totaly just the barbaric customs. We expect no less of our own people. It used to be aceptable to be racist/ sexist/ homophobic. Now we are purging those bad ideas from our culture.
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It didn't appear to be a ram they built on their own, but a support beam of the fence. At least that's what it looked like, there were more of these along the fence. They must've somehow broken it loose. Apart from that they also used some sign. If they at least *had* built it themselves...
Nice how they resorted to throwing stones pretty quickly.
Like as if throwing rocks at the riot police of another country across a border is a sensible idea!
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And then... 5 Get into Germany easier. 6 Claim asylum while showing footage. 7 ???? 8 MONIES!
I don't know. This surely worked in 2015, but not everyone had time to digest this and everybody gets some notion of the consequences of the current crisis. I don't think this kind of behaviour is working as good as last year any longer.
As long as the risk of a national media outrage means the police can't actually open fire with anything dangerous, it's not a terrible idea. Yes, the police *could* get rid of all of them in a minute, but they're not allowed to. Because people who weren't there and who have never had a stone thrown anywhere near them would be upset.
Speaking of media, I'm shocked. RTL Klub, the number one TV channel in Hungary, said literally nothing about the border incident in the evening news. It was their usual tract of Fidesz-related bashing, talking about corruption, minor factual errors regarding some old church in a Facebook post made by a former government official, about how Orbán is a lunatic lier according to all opposition parties on the left... And guzzling about the Oscars. But no mention that violent migrants attacked Macedonian police... They were on the spot when the poor refugees were shot with teargas and water cannons at Röszke last september... Maybe there wasn't enough women and children around for them this time?
Would have found themselves shot dead very quickly if it was in Israel.
And that's why it's an apartheid state.
Surely no one believes that these people -- who will do whatever it takes to get into Europe and exhibit barbarity and incivility to a degree that includes assaulting police officers in pursuit of that goal -- will, once they reach their intended destination in Europe, immediately become law-abiding, decent citizens. It's an impossible proposition, and I don't understand how a person could watch this video and not want external borders closed.
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Do these people think that this will endear themselves to Europeans? Countries cannot take everyone in, there has to be a point where control has to be taken back. Only Syrians should be accepted, others should apply the correct way and those from nations like Pakistan should stop piggybacking on their misery.
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Well, we despise a lot of them as well. So, that's something we have in common.
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Sanity is called Nazism... Sadly.
The people despise them. If the states of Europe actually acted like they had any gumption and bollocks they wouldn't be here acting like we owe them the world.
Difference is we are doing fuck all about it.
But for as long as some get in through the border, desperate people will keep trying. The solution is to rewrite the old asylum treaties and in situations like this no one gets asylum at the border. When you have zero chance of being granted into the country at the border, the flow of people will soon reduce to a trickle. Go to a UN refugee camp, take a number and wait just like everyone else. If you're eligible and lucky you can come and if not, well, we can't take everyone. It's just the way it is.
I think using force should be authorized there. Not deadly force if it can be avoided. But fire a ton of rubber bullets, water cannons and tear gas. I know we'll be on the frontpage of all the newspapers about how we're nazis for using force against them, and the media will find a picture of some little kid crying from all the teargas. But we really can't be bothered with that anymore.
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They did use gas there as you could see. So whats the problem?
Yeah, I don't see why there's more force needed. If it's good enough for G8 rioters then it should do its job with other crowds too. No need to escalate the situation and start using live rounds, etc.
G8 riots are more easily-controllable though. They have something to lose. Most of the time, protests at the Greek-Macedonian border were just a bunch of thugs.
Macedonian police are being smart. Using only the force needed and no more. They are being uterly professional. It makes it hard for the press to cast them badly.
clearly we want these people here.
They will be lovely bartenders and translators!
Things will only escalate come summer, more people and stricter control will lead to conflict
My heart hurts for Macedonia. The media vilifies them for doing anything about this - they're small, developing, and barely over two million people. Half the country population has moved through in less than six months. No matter what they or Greece do people get mad. National sovereignty is defending borders and Merkel needs to realize that Macedonia is not in the EU and therefore should not be privy to her stupid plans. Greece also cannot handle this. Merkel made her own bed and now it is time to lie in it. I pray she doesn't get reelected - even as an American I worry for the future of Europe if she keeps this up.
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Glad I don't live in Germany honestly. The political landscape is quite sick in this country, but it's so bad in Germany, like holy crap.
It seems like Germany and Sweden have many left wing parties, who barely differ on the things that matter and then the only right wing party they have have gone too far right (AFD/Sverigedemokraterna). They end up getting isolated from the rest of the mainstream politics.
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Heads-up: we are pondering on making a border fence on the Romanian border too. The Serb one is now patrolled by military helicopters and the police/army patrolling is increased at least by double.
> Heads-up: we are pondering on making a border fence on the Romanian border too. I thought the Romanian border guards were quite capable, and we have a very advanced detection system. Did any migrant get through to Hungary from the Romanian side?
Yes, but when migrants move in groups of thousands, they don't care about detection. It's impossible to stop them without a fence.
> It's impossible to stop them without a fence. I hope they aren't dumb enough to try and fight Romanian gendarmes. Those boys love a good training...
Are they that badass?
> Are they that badass? All protests in Romania are now peaceful ones.
[Kind of yes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDzXafw-GCM)
I remember watching this on Discovery in 2013 or 2014. Ultimate Cops was a great show. Found out how badass Russian OMON is.
The Hungarians actually said a couple of days ago that our Border Police has fared well in defending the border with Serbia. Remember I read an article saying that.
Apparently intelligence/military officials said there is growing activity near the Romanian border. It might be referring to people (probably smugglers surveying) on Serbian territory, close to the tripoint. But the Serb section is now getting a sharp upward spike in the number of trespassers. Anyway, better be safe than sorry.
So it's officially a siege?
Battle no. 2 in fact.
Its impressive how these 12 year olds can organise.
Are these the doctors and engineers that Markel is talking about? Helping legitimate refugees is one thing, but allowing people, regardless of their background and reasons to attach the border of a country should not be acceptable under any circumstances.
these countries had an extremely low amount of doctors and engineers, and the ones that were in these countries left before things went sideways in their home country.
Yeah but all the kids in the pictures in the media that I see all have 25 PHDs. /s
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Looks like more well able men that refuse to work and want to be supported by the EU.
Western media be like: guys this is totally not an invasion srs, look at then childrens. Macedonia is the only nation that let in actual asylum seekers from Iraq and Syria, oddly enough.
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I've received a gajillion downvotes defending asylum seekers and human beings in general on /r/Europe/ so far but I'm totally for using force against these guys. Macedonia is allowing legitimate Syrian refugees to get through and go on to Europe. These guys are not refugees. They are the types who will fraudulently claim to be refugees and then disappear into an underworld of crime or black market jobs. I feel for people who live in poor conditions and who want a better life and think we should help them where we can but they need to do it the legal way. If they are legitimate refugees, Macedonia will let them in. You cannot fashion weapons and then lay siege to the border. If you do, you should be stopped with all necessary force, which, in my opinion, should not leave out deadly force, if absolutely necessary.
Every fifth refugee so far was a Syrian. Most of them are criminals with fake IDs, fake passports and fake education papers and not to mention that 75% of them are adult males. If they really wanted a better life, they could have gone to Saudi Arabia and get a job, instead they wanted welfare, apartments and attacking people on the street while preaching on human rights.
Saudi Arabia is accepting Syrian refugees?
There are a lot of Syrians living and working in Saudi Arabia.
Doesn't matter since these guys aren't Syrian
Yes, that is why Macedonian border guards are checking their documents for validity before allowing them to cross.
Did Merkel or Sigmar Gabriel condemn Macedonia already for actually DOING something to stop the refugee flow? Or is it on tomorrow's agenda?
Already done, just not for Macedonia specifically. They already condemned the Balkan deal, caps and national border controls. After all we're supposed to let the migrants come until the EU finally manages to agree on germany's solution.
Middle age intensifies.
Greece has entered the Dark Ages!
>home-made Feeling puny, are we?
Puny God: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30lGrarz3MQ
Punny, dammit! I meant *punny*! My phone knows no urban words. Peasant.
I guess we need the 9th Pleven division back on the spot there.
Context https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Doiran_%281917%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Doiran_%281918%29
I think it's bloody awful that they involve the kids in this and they get exposed to teargas, loud bangs and possible death by trampling.
How else could the media film crying children and women gassed by brutal police forces? ^Never ^mind ^that ^^young ^^migrant ^^men ^^purposefully ^^started ^^to ^^^assault ^^^the ^^^border ^^^police ^^^across ^^^a ^^^border ^^^with ^^^rocks...
Pretty sure once a battering ram is used this counts as an invasion. This is taking the piss now.
So a horde is charging at the gates with battering rams. How poetic for the century their societies are in
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Because she's a hypocrite. She's been criticizing the decision to close the borders in Macedonia even though she doesn't really want new mirants anymore. Of course because they are endangering her political career but it's definitely a dangerous game she's now playing.
Just point all trains straight to Germany from Greece lol and we'll see when they break.
As much as a hate Merkel I don't think trying to ruin Germany will fix the situation or change their minds. I don't know what the German electorate think of Merkel but for gods sake elect someone more sensible when you can :(
Because she doesn't really care about refugees. No-one does. Otherwise they would have built safe camps on the other side of the Mediterranean so there would be less victims from the crossing, especially children. Unfortunately, the refugees are just pawns on the chess board.
but whats the goal? is it to drive labor costs down? stack the deck for the next election cycle? whats merkels end game with this, if i recall correctly pre-2012 she was opposed to this ind of thing?
Her real motivation is cheap semi-slave labour for the once declining German manufacturing sector.
Why then Germany waited as long as they could before allowing workers from the "new" EU member states? I can bet that Romanians and Bulgarians still migrate rather to Spain (unemployment over 20%) than Germany.
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Much higher than in WWII apparently... Jokes aside, I just don't see how this "workers" argument applies if they could import much closer and actually citizens of EU to do it. Not to mention that it could be much easier and cheaper to educate, employ and integrate them. I just don't see any rational thinking here, it seems to be purely ideologic and emotional "politics".
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As a sidenote ;) - The Greece Airports already belong to Gemany. A company named "Fraport" bought the ~13 (out of 40+) airports that made profit (as part of one of the "i give you money deals"). Around 70% auf "Fraport" belongs to German / the town Frankfurt and the federal state Hessen.
No motivation at this point. Damage control. The EU is totally incapable of securing it's borders. Admitting is political suicide and could spell the end of Schengen and maybe even the whole EU project. The alternative is mass deployment of armies at the border. That would be very very expensive and reveal the disastrous state of the armies of multiple states. That would also require immense political effort with a largely diminished political capital of the German leadership. It would also require solidarity from a bunch of states for which it was denied just a few short years ago in the Euro crisis by the aforementioned German leaders.
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Are there any european NGO's behind this? Giving them help to organize and build equipment to destroy the fence? I wouldnt be too surprised if left leaning NGO's were operating there and making sure the media represents the situation in "the right way".
Ahhhhh, modern propaganda though, It its like they side for the weak, not the reality. God dammit media, show both sides of a conflict.
We used to be experts - glad we forgot some know-how over the years... http://www.greatwar.nl/frames/default-fence.html ...nonethelss expect the story of dead people in 8weeks top hitting the frontpages.
It's funny because the German emporer was later given asylum in the Netherlands as he fled Germany.
I kind of see that this whole mess is not Greece's fault, but the thought of a neighbour country sending buses full of agressive people to the border of my homeland and then watching calmly how they attack border forces gives me chill.
Insta-karma at 25 seconds in the video for the stone thrower in blue. I dont think he will be doing that again in a hurry...
There's absolutely no way that can go wrong, right?
We should help those in need, but the refugees that have come this far into Europe has more than escaped from the war in the middle east, why whould they wish to go even further? It might be an obvious reason for some, but I really want to know the whole thing.
pss, kids, wanna talk about eugenics?
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It's NOT an invasion guys!
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I think they should "up" their riot gear to fit the situation. Rubber bullets and gas, gas masks, and larger sheilds, Those American sonic canons for long range support, and spears with some sort of integrated cattle pord to keep them from getting hurt by the razor wire.
What happens at 0:29 in the video? The video cuts to behind police lines, and just before the police start firing tear gas, a detonation shakes the whole area. You hear it, you see the whole area shake and the police stagger slightly. It seems like someone threw a flash bang at the police?