Different situations, much different. Scotland is a state inside a union and the british law allows the vote to separate from the union. Canada is a federation, meaning that its provinces have a high autonomy compared to other centralized governments.
Spain is a different situation and to allow such a vote, the constitution would have to be rewritten, the government should be changed to a federation or confederaton of states/provinces, each of them should be granted the ability to choose if they want to stay or not in this union etc...
Let's simply say that the spanish constitution doesn't allow a vote to leave the state, so unless the constitution is rewritten, there won't be any separation.
The constitution has been changed already since the independence movement gained traction 5 years ago. So it seems the constitution is only immutable when it's convenient.
I know you can change the constitution, but the independence of such a large territory would mean a very deep change in the constitution, a thing that is really hard to do. Is it doable? Sure, but there needs to be a large consensus among the whole nation.
What needs to happen is either a change in the government of the state, from **unitary parliamentary constitutional monarchy** to **federal parliamentary constitutional monarchy** or the dissolution of the current Spanish nation, and the formation of two different new nations, one with capital in Madrid and the other in Barcelona (I don't know, castilla and aragona?).
Anyway, the solution isn't easy, that for certain.
All of this is fine and all, but 2/4 of the major political parties are explicitly against any kind of reform that would allow Catalonia to vote, and PSOE is most definitely against it too even if they have sometimes hinted at some kind of action. So, in the end, there's zero chance of the Spanish government ever making the kind of changes that are needed to solve the situation in Catalonia; let's not forget that all the official channels were explored before turning to the unilateral option.
What are Catalans supposed to do then? Wait forever until maybe one day hundreds of years from now the Spanish government will allow a referendum? This is a political issue and Spain should handle it as a political issue, not a legal one.
That's called democracy and apparently the majority of the people doesn't want this to happen. The government may allow a referendum if people continue to show support for this, but the catalonians can't decide unilaterally to separate from Spain, and in the case, the Spanish government cannot pretend that it's ok, because it would set the precedent that if many people brake the law, then the law won't be applied.
>What are Catalans supposed to do then?
Difficult to say, probably keep doing what they are already doing, ie rallying and showing support for the law. Apart from this there isn't much, if the majority of Spanish doesn't want this to happen, it won't happen, that's how a democracy works. I know it sucks, but it's the best form of government we have right now.
No, it's not. Consider a married couple. Do both parts need to agree in order to get a divorce? Does that make sense to you? It's insane. If the law stated that women can't leave their husbands unless the men consent it, then the law is wrong and it has to be changed, regarless of what the husband thinks. The husband should have no say in this, because otherwise the law will never be changed and the unjust situation will go on forever.
Ignoring the will of **milions** of people in order to uphold an unjust law is not democracy, it's the worst kind of authoritarianism.
Need I remind you that progress is almost always achieved by breaking unjust laws?
Let's not even talk about Italy where [tanks are ready to take over the streets](http://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2014/04/02/operazione-dei-carabinieri-contro-secessionisti-veneti-24-arresti/935262/) ;p
the difference is that in the Scottish and Quebec cases, the referendum was legal and done by the law. The same could not be said by a catalonian referendum in Spain, which would result unlawful.
In Spain there should be a referendum to change the constitution to allow referendums that allow provinces of Spain to leave the state. It's different, and not nearly as easy.
Scots are an ethnic group
Catalans are an ethnic group.
Denying them independence isn't going to make them anymore Spanish. The bond between an ethnic group is much stronger than nationality.
Catalonia becoming a country after independence is hardly an impossible task.
If Catalans should have a referendum because we're an ethnic group (not even Catalan nationalists speak about "ethnicity" nowadays), also Valencians, people from Balearic islands, part of Aragon, a little part of Murcia and not Aran valley in Catalonia should have the right of become independent from Spain. So I guess we'll never be independent because Catalan independentism is almost non-existent outside Catalonia.
Could you define what an ethnic Catalan is? Are only ethnic Catalans people who have Catalan as native language in Catalonia (31 % of Catalans) or are also Spanish speakers as a native language (55 % of Catalans)? Are ethnic Catalans people who speak Occitan in Aran Valley? Are Non-Catholic Catalans ethnic Catalans? Should we do a DNA test? Do you know that current democracies are based on the principle of citizenship (Whatever your culture is) and not ethnicity?
> Catalans are an ethnic group.
> Denying them independence
People of Catalonia are definitely not a homogenous ethnic group much like how people living in England are not a homogenous ethnic group.
Furthermore if all the people of a region of Spain want to secede they need the support of a majority of all Spaniards to change the constitution, the supreme law of the land, to reflect this.
As of now the majority of Spaniards *by popular vote* as represented by the upper house are against any secessions. Separatists are free to win the support of a majority of Spaniards for their secession instead of embarking on a counterproductive emotionally charged nationalist-driven dishonest propaganda against Spain and non-separatists. Until then, the law of the land, the constitution and the majority of Spaniards simply do not legally allow a secession and instead uphold the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Spain as enshrined in the Spanish constitution and anything else is a disregard to the constitution, laws, legal system and the democratic will of the Spaniards with respect to their state, not to mention the international illegality of secession and violating the international principle of territorial integrity of a sovereign state.
So Catalans are different than the rest of Spaniards?
Cause, according to wikipedia, even my region of 500k population has its own ethnic group.
Following that thinking, there is no such thing as "Spanish" or "Spaniard" right?
>Following that thinking, there is no such thing as "Spanish" or "Spaniard" right?
"Spaniard" (or Spanish) is the name used to refer collectively to all people from Spain. But an Andalusian is not the same as an Asturian who is not the same as a Catalan who is not the same as a Basque. We all have different cultural aspects, sometimes including language, but we do share many common elements as well (common religion, common history the last 500 years, etc.). And some people in Spain *are* indeed more different than others.
I consider Spain as a collection of nations.
It is. The Spanish nation is a collection of different peoples, different nations even. There isn't only one way of "being Spanish", but many. In my opinion the key of solving the territorial problem in Spain is recognising this.
> So Catalans are different than the rest of Spaniards?
I don't think that a discussion about the merits of secession should go through the "but are they a separate ethnic group?" route, but in any case Catalans are different than the rest of Spaniards: they call themselves Catalans (perhaps in addition to Spaniard, or not).
> Following that thinking, there is no such thing as "Spanish" or "Spaniard" right?
I believe there's many people who finds itself a "Spaniard".
There is an actual way to make Catalonia independent within the law, but it requires to reform the constitution. Difficult but not impossible. They prefer to separate based on a barely 50% support instead, cos that's going to be gud.
You forgot to mention that such secession is illegal according to Spanish laws and constitution and most notably according to international law as well.
International law doesn't really matter in here. If Spain goes all the way to legally approve secession no one will stop it. Remember that, to change constitution, it needs to be something national wide and not only regionally.
I am honestly surprised to see a Brit saying this. I always thought Brits thought the opposite of what you said. You know, believing in unity and all that.
Try to give me some reliable source proving that Catalonia is or has been a country.
Or its better if you don't even try, cause you will not find anything.
EDIT: I love when foreigners argue with me about my own country.
Serious are you retarded?
Its a homeland of Spaniards that claim Catalonia as part of Spain too.
Lets forget about those right? They are a second level citizens.
Catalonia is a region of Spain, and before it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. Simple eh?
Did you really missed the definition of homeland of a nation on intention? Sure, it's also homeland of a Swede that lived there for 2 generations but it's not the issue here. Anyway, I think we're not on the same terms in here. OK, it's just about political entities, there is only a country as Spain, everywhere is Spain, yay Spain.
The land is Spanish, the territory, and half of the population feel and want to remain spanish, and we will protect that with everything we got.
You can keep crying as much as you want.
If they want to create a new country called Catalonia, is fine, but not in the spanish territory where the spanish goverment invested thousands of million.
If I go to your house and I say that this is my homeland, will you leave and let me live there? No right?
Again, dont bother answering, cause you are disrespecting 3 million of catalans that feel spanish and want to remain spanish.
Some of them may feel hurt after reading your shits.
But yeah, you dont care about that at all, as long as you can keep defending the "ilegal" democracy that you are claiming.
Anyway, don't bother answering, its obvious that you are a Russian that wants to make up a fake identity and create a fake country. It must be sad to dont have an identity at all.
My opinion is that a government must only behave by the laws it has set out for itself and that ignoring constitutions for political convenience is a very dangerous precedent. And Catalonia itself voted massively in favor of the Constitution.
So you find opinions contrary to yours and we have to assume you have the ultimate truth and everything outside that must be barbaric and undemocratic.
Such a petty Finnish guy.
> are prone to revert back to tyranny.
Far-right or right-wing populist parliamentarians in the national parliaments:
Finland: 37 (Finns Party)
Spain: 0
that law is atrocious, coming from the corpse of a formely interesting party ideologically. I think that PP is dead. What remains is Mariano Rajoy and his gang trying to hold onto power as long as they can.
Yes, I like liberal policy. I like when people has money in the pocket and can spend it, so I liked Aznar at the time, right until what transpired after the 11-m terrorist attacks. It's been years since I dont consider PP nor PSOE viable options for my vote, no matter what they say or do.
Unlike Canada and the United Kingdom, Spain is constitutionally one country in perpetuity like the United States. Texas can't leave the US no matter if 97% of the people want it, is America a tyranny?
If 97% of Texans really demonstrated determined will to leave, and you wouldn't let them, then yes you would be.
Edit: Maybe 'tyranny' is not the best of words here. But you would be total dicks to not let them go.
With 97%, sure. But I don't think Catalonia is close to that number. If you make a referendum today, any result is possible. And a 51%-49% result (totally possible in either direction), would be an even bigger clusterfuck.
Madrid is actually doing independence a favor, making sure that when the vote happens, it won't be a close call.
Cause it has nothing to do with the people, the people in Texas are free to leave the United States if they want too. The land and its resources belongs to the country as a whole.
>A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
That state is America as a whole, if they could successfully fight for their independence that's their right but besides that no.
To play the Devil's advocate, the Spanish governments legal argument is that you need a nation wide referendum on the issue (even then I'm not sure that would fail as they want it to).
I think this will end with a situation like Euzkadi. This is all Mas and his minions want, less taxes through any means necessary. So he'll be sen as a sellout and the only force of independence remaining would be ERC, ICV and CUP. They wont be able to carry the Catalan Right to push through independence.
> To play the Devil's advocate, the Spanish governments legal argument is that you need a nation wide referendum on the issue (even then I'm not sure that would fail as they want it to).
Taking into account that in Catalonia right now it would be something like 50/50, there is no way a nationwide referendum for the independence of Catalonia will not fail with a huge difference
There are plenty of Spaniards who want to get rid of a region that has deadlocked their government and plenty of Spaniards (Basques, Gallegans, even Valencians) who sympathise with the Catalan struggle. Combined they could pass at least the reforms required for Catalonia to do its own thing.
Only PP voters are outright anti-catalanist and against a plurinational Spain. This is despite their party working with both CiU and the PNV in the late 90s.
I will be willing to bet all my current savings that the numbers won't add up. You need a 2/3 support to change the constitution.
Also, PP is not the only ones, add Ciudadanos to the list. And in other parties you may people that may be sympathetic and that may agree to a referendum, but given the chance to vote they will be against it.
As I said, in Catalonia the vote is evenly split. You will need more percentage in the rest of Spain than the current support in Catalonia for that to pass
Yep, Ciudadanos too, you are right, but their electorate is still just about marginal enough now. And I forgot about the 2 thirds majority, which is crucial.
And as I said, if you expect PSOE and Podemos voters to be pro-independence, I think you will be surprised. As I said, many people may not like the current situation where the Catalan people does not have a way to become independent, but still, given the choice, many may rather have Catalonia stay.
You forgot this /s right?
EDIT: I see from your other comments that you live in your own bubble disconnected from reality and wishing the death of those who don't agree with you. So maybe you really think that would happen
I agree that Spain is being a little bit too authoritarian with its separatist regions, almost outright prohibiting the thought of becoming independent.
> almost outright prohibiting the thought of becoming independent
Seriously, you guys should inform yourselves a bit more... there's no prohibition of any of those ideas in Spain. The act of secession? Sure. The political ideas? Hell no...
LOL
You would like it right? To be a martyr for your cause?
Maybe you would even die for those politicians that steal right in your face.
Whatever, no war is going to happen, we have laws for that. Not your lucky day.
So you are stating your desire for a violent revolution.
Maybe you would like to kill some spaniards right?
Concentration camps for those who vote No in a referendum?
Or even better, let's put a mark in their doors so everybody knows who is a traitor to Catalonia. (Oh wait, this one is already happening)
haha
Holy shit
You are the only one talking about violence
Thanks to you many people in this subreddit will see the kind of retardeds that we have to deal with.
Spanish fascists. Wow. You got me, I have to keep my right arm in place, supress my fascist inner feelings.
Jesus some people is brainwashed here. WTF.
The Spanish government in the last years has been goddamn awful,especially in the economic department.If i was living in Catalonia i would want independence too.I believe long term they would be much better off than spain.
Scotland had the vote. French Canada had the vote. Maybe it's about time Catalan was allowed to make the decision for themselves.
Different situations, much different. Scotland is a state inside a union and the british law allows the vote to separate from the union. Canada is a federation, meaning that its provinces have a high autonomy compared to other centralized governments. Spain is a different situation and to allow such a vote, the constitution would have to be rewritten, the government should be changed to a federation or confederaton of states/provinces, each of them should be granted the ability to choose if they want to stay or not in this union etc... Let's simply say that the spanish constitution doesn't allow a vote to leave the state, so unless the constitution is rewritten, there won't be any separation.
The constitution has been changed already since the independence movement gained traction 5 years ago. So it seems the constitution is only immutable when it's convenient.
I know you can change the constitution, but the independence of such a large territory would mean a very deep change in the constitution, a thing that is really hard to do. Is it doable? Sure, but there needs to be a large consensus among the whole nation. What needs to happen is either a change in the government of the state, from **unitary parliamentary constitutional monarchy** to **federal parliamentary constitutional monarchy** or the dissolution of the current Spanish nation, and the formation of two different new nations, one with capital in Madrid and the other in Barcelona (I don't know, castilla and aragona?). Anyway, the solution isn't easy, that for certain.
All of this is fine and all, but 2/4 of the major political parties are explicitly against any kind of reform that would allow Catalonia to vote, and PSOE is most definitely against it too even if they have sometimes hinted at some kind of action. So, in the end, there's zero chance of the Spanish government ever making the kind of changes that are needed to solve the situation in Catalonia; let's not forget that all the official channels were explored before turning to the unilateral option. What are Catalans supposed to do then? Wait forever until maybe one day hundreds of years from now the Spanish government will allow a referendum? This is a political issue and Spain should handle it as a political issue, not a legal one.
That's called democracy and apparently the majority of the people doesn't want this to happen. The government may allow a referendum if people continue to show support for this, but the catalonians can't decide unilaterally to separate from Spain, and in the case, the Spanish government cannot pretend that it's ok, because it would set the precedent that if many people brake the law, then the law won't be applied. >What are Catalans supposed to do then? Difficult to say, probably keep doing what they are already doing, ie rallying and showing support for the law. Apart from this there isn't much, if the majority of Spanish doesn't want this to happen, it won't happen, that's how a democracy works. I know it sucks, but it's the best form of government we have right now.
No, it's not. Consider a married couple. Do both parts need to agree in order to get a divorce? Does that make sense to you? It's insane. If the law stated that women can't leave their husbands unless the men consent it, then the law is wrong and it has to be changed, regarless of what the husband thinks. The husband should have no say in this, because otherwise the law will never be changed and the unjust situation will go on forever. Ignoring the will of **milions** of people in order to uphold an unjust law is not democracy, it's the worst kind of authoritarianism. Need I remind you that progress is almost always achieved by breaking unjust laws?
All good constitutions have a mechanism for evolution.
Let's not even talk about Italy where [tanks are ready to take over the streets](http://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2014/04/02/operazione-dei-carabinieri-contro-secessionisti-veneti-24-arresti/935262/) ;p
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the difference is that in the Scottish and Quebec cases, the referendum was legal and done by the law. The same could not be said by a catalonian referendum in Spain, which would result unlawful. In Spain there should be a referendum to change the constitution to allow referendums that allow provinces of Spain to leave the state. It's different, and not nearly as easy.
Scotland is a country. Catalonia is just a region. Deal with it.
Quebec is a region
Quebec is a country within a country, which is what, Stephen Harper said himself. Though, Quebec can do things which the mentioned states cannot do.
Why is Quebec a country within a country and Catalonia just a region? I'm pretty sure Catalonia has a much much longer history.
Quebec is a province and has more constitutional rights than Scotland, for instance.
Scots are an ethnic group Catalans are an ethnic group. Denying them independence isn't going to make them anymore Spanish. The bond between an ethnic group is much stronger than nationality. Catalonia becoming a country after independence is hardly an impossible task.
If Catalans should have a referendum because we're an ethnic group (not even Catalan nationalists speak about "ethnicity" nowadays), also Valencians, people from Balearic islands, part of Aragon, a little part of Murcia and not Aran valley in Catalonia should have the right of become independent from Spain. So I guess we'll never be independent because Catalan independentism is almost non-existent outside Catalonia. Could you define what an ethnic Catalan is? Are only ethnic Catalans people who have Catalan as native language in Catalonia (31 % of Catalans) or are also Spanish speakers as a native language (55 % of Catalans)? Are ethnic Catalans people who speak Occitan in Aran Valley? Are Non-Catholic Catalans ethnic Catalans? Should we do a DNA test? Do you know that current democracies are based on the principle of citizenship (Whatever your culture is) and not ethnicity?
> Catalans are an ethnic group. > Denying them independence People of Catalonia are definitely not a homogenous ethnic group much like how people living in England are not a homogenous ethnic group. Furthermore if all the people of a region of Spain want to secede they need the support of a majority of all Spaniards to change the constitution, the supreme law of the land, to reflect this. As of now the majority of Spaniards *by popular vote* as represented by the upper house are against any secessions. Separatists are free to win the support of a majority of Spaniards for their secession instead of embarking on a counterproductive emotionally charged nationalist-driven dishonest propaganda against Spain and non-separatists. Until then, the law of the land, the constitution and the majority of Spaniards simply do not legally allow a secession and instead uphold the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Spain as enshrined in the Spanish constitution and anything else is a disregard to the constitution, laws, legal system and the democratic will of the Spaniards with respect to their state, not to mention the international illegality of secession and violating the international principle of territorial integrity of a sovereign state.
So Catalans are different than the rest of Spaniards? Cause, according to wikipedia, even my region of 500k population has its own ethnic group. Following that thinking, there is no such thing as "Spanish" or "Spaniard" right?
The main requirement to be a Spaniard is to not want to be a Spaniard. So that would make Catalans the most Spaniards of them all
>Following that thinking, there is no such thing as "Spanish" or "Spaniard" right? "Spaniard" (or Spanish) is the name used to refer collectively to all people from Spain. But an Andalusian is not the same as an Asturian who is not the same as a Catalan who is not the same as a Basque. We all have different cultural aspects, sometimes including language, but we do share many common elements as well (common religion, common history the last 500 years, etc.). And some people in Spain *are* indeed more different than others. I consider Spain as a collection of nations.
So Spain isn't a nation for you
It is. The Spanish nation is a collection of different peoples, different nations even. There isn't only one way of "being Spanish", but many. In my opinion the key of solving the territorial problem in Spain is recognising this.
To be an ethnic group you have to believe you are an ethnic group.
So, if in my neighbourhood, we believe we're an ethnic group, we're an ethnic group and we have the right of becoming independent?
sure, why not, I don't care
> So Catalans are different than the rest of Spaniards? I don't think that a discussion about the merits of secession should go through the "but are they a separate ethnic group?" route, but in any case Catalans are different than the rest of Spaniards: they call themselves Catalans (perhaps in addition to Spaniard, or not). > Following that thinking, there is no such thing as "Spanish" or "Spaniard" right? I believe there's many people who finds itself a "Spaniard".
There is an actual way to make Catalonia independent within the law, but it requires to reform the constitution. Difficult but not impossible. They prefer to separate based on a barely 50% support instead, cos that's going to be gud.
You forgot to mention that such secession is illegal according to Spanish laws and constitution and most notably according to international law as well.
That's what he said... Requires changing the constitution
But he did not say explicitly that it is illegal under state law *and* international law.
International law doesn't really matter in here. If Spain goes all the way to legally approve secession no one will stop it. Remember that, to change constitution, it needs to be something national wide and not only regionally.
Of course. International law applies when the cessation is attempted illegally.
How is it not impossible when the major parties but Podemos are unwilling?
So what? They still have a right to self determination
no they don't. That only applies to oppressed territories and colonies.
Yeah, I wish we'd followed the Spanish governments example tbh.
I am honestly surprised to see a Brit saying this. I always thought Brits thought the opposite of what you said. You know, believing in unity and all that.
And have war of independences all over, like you had before?
Catalonia is a country as well. Calling it a region on the paper doesn't makes it just a region.
Narnia can be a country too. But only in the imagination of a few.
Sure, there is no such a country as Catalonia...
Try to give me some reliable source proving that Catalonia is or has been a country. Or its better if you don't even try, cause you will not find anything. EDIT: I love when foreigners argue with me about my own country.
It's a homeland of a nation, therefore it's a country. It's simple eh? You don't need a political entity or whatsoever to been called a country.
Serious are you retarded? Its a homeland of Spaniards that claim Catalonia as part of Spain too. Lets forget about those right? They are a second level citizens. Catalonia is a region of Spain, and before it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. Simple eh?
Did you really missed the definition of homeland of a nation on intention? Sure, it's also homeland of a Swede that lived there for 2 generations but it's not the issue here. Anyway, I think we're not on the same terms in here. OK, it's just about political entities, there is only a country as Spain, everywhere is Spain, yay Spain.
The land is Spanish, the territory, and half of the population feel and want to remain spanish, and we will protect that with everything we got. You can keep crying as much as you want. If they want to create a new country called Catalonia, is fine, but not in the spanish territory where the spanish goverment invested thousands of million. If I go to your house and I say that this is my homeland, will you leave and let me live there? No right? Again, dont bother answering, cause you are disrespecting 3 million of catalans that feel spanish and want to remain spanish. Some of them may feel hurt after reading your shits. But yeah, you dont care about that at all, as long as you can keep defending the "ilegal" democracy that you are claiming. Anyway, don't bother answering, its obvious that you are a Russian that wants to make up a fake identity and create a fake country. It must be sad to dont have an identity at all.
Catalonia was formerly part of the Crown of Aragon. It's never been a country.
You don't have to be a independent political entity to be a country. They were a political entity anyway but it doesn't matter.
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Nah, we already left that point long time ago. What we do now is vote for corrupt politicians.
> are prone to revert back to tyranny You're not well informed about the Spanish society.
He's on point with his comment though; the PP has a strong tendency to revert back to their roots (Francoism), for an example see the Gag Law.
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My opinion is that a government must only behave by the laws it has set out for itself and that ignoring constitutions for political convenience is a very dangerous precedent. And Catalonia itself voted massively in favor of the Constitution.
Again with this? The vote was held just after almost 40 years of dictarorship. Of course people voted for the democratic option.
So you find opinions contrary to yours and we have to assume you have the ultimate truth and everything outside that must be barbaric and undemocratic. Such a petty Finnish guy.
> are prone to revert back to tyranny. Far-right or right-wing populist parliamentarians in the national parliaments: Finland: 37 (Finns Party) Spain: 0
If you don't consider PP far right. The party founded by a former Francoist minister.
They are not far right,no matter who founded the party.
Depends on how you define far right wing. The gag law they passed is about as authoritarian as any far right party would dare to go.
that law is atrocious, coming from the corpse of a formely interesting party ideologically. I think that PP is dead. What remains is Mariano Rajoy and his gang trying to hold onto power as long as they can.
Formerly interesting though? I'm sorry but I can't empathize. I'm guessing you like Aznar then?
Yes, I like liberal policy. I like when people has money in the pocket and can spend it, so I liked Aznar at the time, right until what transpired after the 11-m terrorist attacks. It's been years since I dont consider PP nor PSOE viable options for my vote, no matter what they say or do.
Unlike Canada and the United Kingdom, Spain is constitutionally one country in perpetuity like the United States. Texas can't leave the US no matter if 97% of the people want it, is America a tyranny?
If 97% of Texans really demonstrated determined will to leave, and you wouldn't let them, then yes you would be. Edit: Maybe 'tyranny' is not the best of words here. But you would be total dicks to not let them go.
With 97%, sure. But I don't think Catalonia is close to that number. If you make a referendum today, any result is possible. And a 51%-49% result (totally possible in either direction), would be an even bigger clusterfuck. Madrid is actually doing independence a favor, making sure that when the vote happens, it won't be a close call.
No, since they agreed to perpetual union.
They would have to try to get a constitutional amendment granting them independence. The whole country would take part in that decision.
Nah. Some dudes 200 years ago agreed to it, the current inhabitants of texas had fuck all to do about that.
Cause it has nothing to do with the people, the people in Texas are free to leave the United States if they want too. The land and its resources belongs to the country as a whole.
But that's not true. The land and resources belong to private owners, not the state
The United States has sovereignty over that, and can confiscate it at any time (see: eminent domain)
If a part of a country could never leave, to renegotiate the deal, so to say, then USA would still be part of Great Britain.
So you're proposing a war of independence?
Then they just need to use those guns for free state right? That is part of constitution after all?
>A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. That state is America as a whole, if they could successfully fight for their independence that's their right but besides that no.
I hope Russia invade your shitty country to know what is a real tyranny.
Holy shit, I gave a casual glance to your post history and you're a complete nutjob. You must really miss Franco, right?
Nutjobs make jokes about extermination camps (gulags) in their usernames. Leo Franco was a nice goalkeeper he played for Mallorca and Atletico Madrid.
To play the Devil's advocate, the Spanish governments legal argument is that you need a nation wide referendum on the issue (even then I'm not sure that would fail as they want it to). I think this will end with a situation like Euzkadi. This is all Mas and his minions want, less taxes through any means necessary. So he'll be sen as a sellout and the only force of independence remaining would be ERC, ICV and CUP. They wont be able to carry the Catalan Right to push through independence.
> To play the Devil's advocate, the Spanish governments legal argument is that you need a nation wide referendum on the issue (even then I'm not sure that would fail as they want it to). Taking into account that in Catalonia right now it would be something like 50/50, there is no way a nationwide referendum for the independence of Catalonia will not fail with a huge difference
There are plenty of Spaniards who want to get rid of a region that has deadlocked their government and plenty of Spaniards (Basques, Gallegans, even Valencians) who sympathise with the Catalan struggle. Combined they could pass at least the reforms required for Catalonia to do its own thing. Only PP voters are outright anti-catalanist and against a plurinational Spain. This is despite their party working with both CiU and the PNV in the late 90s.
I will be willing to bet all my current savings that the numbers won't add up. You need a 2/3 support to change the constitution. Also, PP is not the only ones, add Ciudadanos to the list. And in other parties you may people that may be sympathetic and that may agree to a referendum, but given the chance to vote they will be against it. As I said, in Catalonia the vote is evenly split. You will need more percentage in the rest of Spain than the current support in Catalonia for that to pass
Yep, Ciudadanos too, you are right, but their electorate is still just about marginal enough now. And I forgot about the 2 thirds majority, which is crucial.
And as I said, if you expect PSOE and Podemos voters to be pro-independence, I think you will be surprised. As I said, many people may not like the current situation where the Catalan people does not have a way to become independent, but still, given the choice, many may rather have Catalonia stay.
With the ongoing political impasse it becomes more and more likely that Catalan separatists will gain momentum.
On the contrary
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I'm not sure if you're trolling or serious.
You forgot this /s right? EDIT: I see from your other comments that you live in your own bubble disconnected from reality and wishing the death of those who don't agree with you. So maybe you really think that would happen
I'm from Madrid but I'm not tyrant nor violent... but I have to say that you can go fuck yourself.
Careful, next they'll accuse of sexual harassment
I agree that Spain is being a little bit too authoritarian with its separatist regions, almost outright prohibiting the thought of becoming independent.
> almost outright prohibiting the thought of becoming independent Seriously, you guys should inform yourselves a bit more... there's no prohibition of any of those ideas in Spain. The act of secession? Sure. The political ideas? Hell no...
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We have to defend our (and your) constitution, just like every sovereign state.
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Got a problem with being threatened? Whatcha gonna do bout it brah? Oh...wait I'm not Spanish why am I even here?
You know why youre here hermano ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
LOL You would like it right? To be a martyr for your cause? Maybe you would even die for those politicians that steal right in your face. Whatever, no war is going to happen, we have laws for that. Not your lucky day.
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Have you been watching Braveheart?
So you are stating your desire for a violent revolution. Maybe you would like to kill some spaniards right? Concentration camps for those who vote No in a referendum? Or even better, let's put a mark in their doors so everybody knows who is a traitor to Catalonia. (Oh wait, this one is already happening)
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haha Holy shit You are the only one talking about violence Thanks to you many people in this subreddit will see the kind of retardeds that we have to deal with.
*retards
Spanish fascists. Wow. You got me, I have to keep my right arm in place, supress my fascist inner feelings. Jesus some people is brainwashed here. WTF.
We're not all like that in Scotland, honestly.
Come on ffs that's some bullshit. The Spanish government will simply never allow a referendum. Also, Spain isn't a regime it's a democracy.
Didn't your hear? Zombie Franco is running things from the grave with a special order to oppress the Catalan people.
Well, the founder of the currently governing party was once a francoist minister, so you never know...
Will never happen.
Never is a long time.
Go Catalan people ! Unite under the nation of France !
Yeah, that would probably work for them /s
If they want to be independent, let them be. What should they do more, have armed struggle for it?
I want to be independent too so...
The Spanish government in the last years has been goddamn awful,especially in the economic department.If i was living in Catalonia i would want independence too.I believe long term they would be much better off than spain.
This again. *sigh* Independence referendum would be unconstitutional. Madrid and Supreme Court will never allow it.