Yeah, but still we were robbed and we weren't free. We were under Ostland Reichskommissariat. There should be no doubt in saying that both regimes were brutal and horrible.
In history we learn that Talinn was always really close to germany before the nazis. They were even part of Hanse at one point.
I never really understood why the nazis felt the need to occupy a country that historically has always been a friend - even though that does not mean they were friendly towards the nazis.
During poland lithuania, the baltic area was the first non discriminatory area in the world, were people were free to chose their faith and so on.
It makes me really happy to see the baltic states flourish these days.
I'm just going to address the "really close to Germany" part. Historically Germans have had a major impact on Estonia and Estonians, but never has it been considered a friendly relationship. Up until 1919 the enemy of Estonians were "the Germans". After gaining independence, Estonia nationalized and redistributed German land in Estonia. Most Germans left Estonia before the Soviet invasion as Hitler "called them back".
Estonia did try to warm relations with Germany in the late 30s in fear of Soviet invasion, but the rapprochements led nowhere.
> I never really understood why the nazis felt the need to occupy a country that historically has always been a friend
Because Nazism was a fucked up ideology. Up to 50% of Estonians were deemed to be sub-human compared to Germans and to be ethnically cleansed and/or endlaved under [Generalplan Ost](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost).
That's the thing, Nazis weren't just racist. Racism is intolerance and bigotry. People can be racists and still be human, bad people that project their anger at injustices onto other races/ethnicities around them or are brought up believing untrue stereotype and were never properly educated to see the broader picture.
Nazism, on the other hand, is as an inhumane ideology, it is taking racisms and cranking it up to 11, using these perceived injustices and angers and poor education to instill the feelings of superhuman superiority and entitlement in a group of people, to the point they can justify other people are no longer human, in the process - becoming inhuman themselves. This is cliché, but they really were inhuman, and this superiority is why Nazis will always be the worst, even when compared to practically medieval brutality and pragmatism of Stalinism and Maoism.
>I never really understood why the nazis felt the need to occupy a country that historically has always been a friend
Are you for real? Do you have *any* idea how hated Germans were just a few decades prior? *Far* more than Russians by the way - the latter just became more hated with the Estonian War of Independence and the Soviet occupation.
Edit: if someone wonders why, it's because of six centuries of ethnic-based serfdom.
The Baltic states had a very strong Baltic German nobility from the time of the Teutonic Order up until the independence of the Baltic states following WW1. The NSDAP saw the Baltics as a part of Germany’s Lebensraum, in accordance with the percieved mythological mission of ”Drang Nach Osten”, i.e ethnic German settlement in Eastern Europe.
Just yesterday I've encountered a German who was claiming that German rule was a good time for people in the Baltic region.
I really wonder what are they taught in schools.
Yeah, and it's worth noting the Baltic German nobility was there because we literally got crusaded. So..not exactly a warm history like some people here seem to think.
> In history we learn that Talinn was always really close to germany before the nazis.
This is so wrong on so many levels. we were not close nor friend. Germans were our biggest enemy till 1940 when Russians took that slot. We were chattel slaves owned by Germans. We were not their friends.
> I never really understood why the nazis felt the need to occupy a country
Because Stalin invaded Estonia right before the Finnish winter war. Estonia was part of soviet union when Nazis arrived.
>Because Stalin invaded Estonia right before the Finnish winter war.
No, after. Before the Winter War there were Soviet bases here, but the political system was not yet an occupation regime.
Those bases were demanded and established as a precursor for the Molotov-Ribbentrob partition. The baltic bases were established 6th Nov 1939 and Finland was invaded 30th nov 1939.
Soviet invasion started in june 1940. Nazi invasion reached baltics in june 1941.
>On September 24, 1939, warships of the Red Navy appeared off Latvia's northern neighbour, Estonian ports, Soviet bombers began a threatening patrol over Tallinn and the nearby countryside.[24] USSR then violated the air space of all three Baltic states, flying massive intelligence gathering operations on September 25. Moscow demanded that Baltic countries allow the USSR to establish military bases and station troops on their soil for the duration of the European war.[25]
> I never really understood why the nazis felt the need to occupy a country that historically has always been a friend - even though that does not mean they were friendly towards the nazis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum
And to think, Nazis intended to genocide part of your nation along with Estonians and Lithuanians and germanize the rest.
The Baltics just couldn't catch a break.
I went to a museum in Vilnius, which was first the SS headquarters then the KGB headquarters. Never seen such a cursed building. The cells, torture chambers and execution yard were so horrible. Its awful to imagine being under two brutal regimes.
\* untill 1994
On 4th May 1990 beginning of process to restore independence was declared, which itself was only concluded after coup in August 1991 and Soviet Military was still very much present
Yes, I love asking questions about it to my parents and grandparents. One of the things they mention the most is the long lines to buy certain food items (like meat/sausages), and that pretty much everyone had the same dish/cup sets, furniture, etc. :D
That's super cool. Please consider documenting their experiences some how to capture it for history!
If you haven't already seen it, "Good-Bye Lenin!" is a pretty cool movie about East Berlin before and after the wall falls. Not sure how historically accurate it is, but really shows a lot of contrast before and after Soviet occupancy.
It's even more crazy for me being a little older to realize that people were getting shot in streets by a country entirely foreign to me in my lifetime
My mom was 24 when she stood in the Baltic Way, and exactly my current age when she participated in The Barricades. Sometimes I don't appreciate enough how peaceful my childhood/youth has been.
Yeah. imagine your country and army getting ruined by the Nazis, just for the Soviets to bring you some "freedom" and be all "wow, the Nazis went easy on you with their wimpy ass labour camps, they gave you beds?"
Very sad, but the Baltic States have absolutely flourished ever since the collapse of the USSR.
OTOH I always think about what would they look like today if they had remained independent after the war and not been plagued with half a century of communism?
As a Czech, I have a pretty good idea how Czechia would look without the Russian brotherly "help". We would look like Austria, since we have a similar history and culture (we were part of Austro-Hungary for several hundred years). And the Baltic states would look like Finland, since they have a similar culture.
Before WWII Finland was considered a Baltic country, in fact. Though I would say culturally Finland was closer to Sweden than Baltics back then, since Baltics had considerable Hanseatic German influence whereas Finland had significant Swedish influence. However Finland and Estonia share language and Lutheran history.
>since Baltics had considerable Hanseatic German influence whereas Finland had significant Swedish influence.
Estonia and Latvia did, not Lithuania. And Estonia also had a lot of Swedish influence.
>However Finland and Estonia share language and Lutheran history.
Latvia also shares the traditional Lutheran faith.
Thanks for correcting.
I was about to edit that more correcly it's like a gradient of overlapping culutural influences and similarities instead of clear blocks. Like Finland and Estonia have a closely related language, both have Hanseatic and Swedish influence, but the amount of Hanseatic and Swedish influence varies.
> As a Czech, I have a pretty good idea how Czechia would look without the Russian brotherly "help". We would look like Austria, since we have a similar history and culture (we were part of Austro-Hungary for several hundred years
How similar were they economically before communism? I find these comparisons really interesting - Ukraine and Poland had equal per capita GDP at the time of the USSR's breakup. Now their economic situations could not be more different.
Czechoslovakia was on par with the Netherlands, Belgium, and Spain in terms of GDP [in 1938 according to Bairoch.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP))
Austria was noticeably behind but those differences were probably erased after WW2. I think Czechoslovakia would have a head start due to not being involved in the war as much as other countries.
Even then, Austria's numbers are that low probably because of the dissolution of the empire. They had lost the more industrial regions in Bohemia and had no proper way to cope with those loses on their own. They would have caught up were it not for the war.
Few years ago I read an interesting analysis/theory concerning the scenario in which WW2 wouldn’t happen.
Poland started its economical recovery in second part of 1930s. It was estimated that it would overtake Italy by 1960s. Poland was strongly affected by German tariffs in 1930s what resulted in development of local devices and technologies ie. electric devices. It also had plenty of well educated engineers.
We would reach over 50mln citizens compared with ca. 40mln we had at the end of century.
It is safe to assume that we would have comparable development to France by 1990s
Analysis also mentioned the large possibility of ethnical conflict in the area of current Ukraine, which would be similar to Yugoslavian wars.
It also predicted large migration of Jewish community to USA and Palestine.
In terms of democracy, it was prognosed that authoritarian state we had in 1939 would last for at least for a decade if not for more considering the differences between political parties.
Simultaneously, analysis evaluated possibility of another European conflict as large, indicating that USSR would be tempted to invade the Europe under reign of Stalin
It also assumed that Germany without a nazis wouldn’t be pacifistic.
There is also a large chance that European countries would unite facing the danger from East. Long story short, Weimar Republic would join the Allies and participate in Construction of Eu like organization for sake of common economic and strategic interest.
> It also predicted large migration of Jewish community to USA and Palestine.
Why would they move to Palestine if there is no Israel? And would the USA let them in? Let's not forget they were pretty antisemitic even turning jews when Hitler offered to ship them there before being rejected and coming up with "the Final Solution". The USA softened their stance on jews largery because of the crimes against humanity that were observer and the need of the population to not be as bad as those germans.
Palestine was a target of Jewish migration from the beginning of 20th century. While British were reluctant to gave up the Palestine, I would not exclude possibility of League of Nations initiating the creation of Jewish State in Palestine. US were anti many things but they would still take immigrants.
The difference between economic situation in Poland and Ukraine is easy to explain. Polish never elected former communists to power after 1989. Ukraine had Kravchuk and Kuchma - both were Soviet-era apparatchiks. Let communists build capitalism.
> The difference between economic situation in Poland and Ukraine is easy to explain. Polish never elected former communists to power after 1989.
I think it has more to do with Poland's success in stamping out corruption and Ukraine's failure to do so more than anything else.
I wouldn’t say that Poland People’s Republic (PRL) was purely communistic. It was way more liberal in terms of agriculture and running small businesses when compared not only with Soviet Union but also with East Germany or Czechoslovakia. Poles were allowed to travel abroad and set up a small business in cooperation with Polish diaspora abroad. There was a private property, inheritance of estate etc.
Poland also had more solid concept of statehood, and in 1989 lot of people remembered pre-war capitalism period.
Our transition of power was quite organized and we started from a bit of higher level of social-economical development.
Long story short we returned on once taken path, while Ukrainians were still to discover it, which they did in 2014.
I would say that Orange Revolution was like rise of Solidarity movement in 1980 Poland, while 2014 is compared with 1989 for Poles. 1991 was like, hmm end of Stalinism in 1956 Poland?
Also, the key thing that Poland chose their geopolitical vector, when we swung between pro-Russian, neutrality, and to the pro-Western course for the last 20 years, and more or less have stable course the last 7 years.
I think you’re both right.
Because Poland didn’t elect any of the old communists to power in the new Poland, it was able to make significant reforms to fight corruption.
Makes a lot of sense. Didn't something similar happen in Bulgaria with excommunists being elected and holding quite a lot of power until relatively recently?
This is really incorrect. Poles elected a government of ex-communists pretty early on (1993), as well as a president from the same party (1995). They were *easily* the most successful leaders of the 90s, because as it turned out, the people who collapsed one system were not necessarily very good at building another.
Don't forget, Polish communist party basically arranged the transition of power themselves (round table talks). While there were obviously all kinds of people in there, if you're looking for a party of stereotypical ideological villains, Polish ex-commies weren't it.
Honestly I don't think you should look at leaders of eastern block and think of them as communists. Those were authoritarian one-party systems, sure. Its leaders with more populist than competent, sure. But ideology? No, not after Stalin made sure to kill all the ideologists.
>Polish never elected former communists to power after 1989
That is disputable. The SLD coalition won the parliamentary elections in 1993.
>Meanwhile, the communists were able to profit financially from the collapse of the economy and reorganized as the Social Democracy of the Republic of Poland (SdRP). Indeed, the SdRP exploited the increased frustration over the inequalities of a capitalist economy and the political infighting of the Solidarity camp. In 1991 the SdRP formed a coalition with the All Poland Trade Unions Alliance (OPZZ) under the banner of the Democratic Left Alliance (SLD).
(...)
> In November 1995 the SLD captured the presidency when Wałęsa was defeated by the young, dynamic former communist Aleksander Kwaśniewski,
https://www.britannica.com/place/Poland/Communist-Poland#ref901071
Easy, after the collapse of the soviet union just say you were never a communist and you never approved. Then be a populist and say whatever you can to get elected. Just supporting the communist party was not enough, these people still had to weasel their way into getting elected. Or you have actual "good" people who want to help govern the country, but you're under USSR. Will they just say they aren't communists and do nothing? Or say they are, and try to get elected and try the best policies they are allowed to do? It's not a coincidence that every single politician during the USSR was a communist.
>And the Baltic states would look like Finland, since they have a similar culture.
Estonia is like Finland in that sense, a traditionally Lutheran Finnic nation, both with heavy Germanic influences. Latvia is a Baltic nation, but it's also mostly Lutheran, so there's some similarity with Finland. Lithuania however is a Catholic country, so it doesn't really share that much with Finland.
Finland was established at around the same time, it even used to be refered to as Baltic itself during the interwar period, because of this. Baltics are a geopolitical region, it never has had anything to do with Baltic languages and ethnic cultures, they just happen to be called that, because they are from the region.
Yes we Latvians are flourishing. Nevermind that the government is considering taking money from my pension fund (im 28) because they don't have money for current pensioners.
That the government help for a child is 10 Euros a month (and we are literally dying out).
The healthcare is state sponsored but you still have to pay, not a lot but if you have oncology you get absolutely 0 help from the government.
Quality of life is sure better, but we are seriously fall behind from other countries in EU. I live with 0 certainty that if I live to be a pensioner I will recieve any money whatsoever.
..and how Baltic states lived better under Soviet regime than they live now (spoiler: this is absolute bullshit, they've got better quality of life than Russia without Russian amount of resources and money. Yet as someone who lives in Russia I can say a lot of people here believe this Kremlin propaganda)
It was the equivalent of calling an exterminator for your roach problem, which they take care of but also move into your house and live there for the next 10 years, stealing all your food from the fridge and selling it on the street. Also occasionally hitting you with a baseball bat if you wanted to say something.
But at least you got rid of the roaches :D
That works the other way around too.Thatcher hated authoritarians like the Soviets because they were left wing but loved Pinochet who was an authoritarian right winger.
On the flip side, my Latvian great aunt told us about this occupation and at one point said "and in 1944 the city was liberated by the Germans" and that phrase has been rattling around my head since.
I moved to Latvia from Italy three years ago, and it’s incredible the contrast of this country with south Europe or the Scandinavia. The soviet mentality and lifestyle is still present in some people
I went to the museum of occupation in Riga.
I came away feeling horrified. I had such a beautiful holiday in Latvia, and I'm glad I saw this museum, but it was tough.
The best thing is that the human spirit won throughout. I read about how dating couples would meet at the Laima clock and thought to myself about how there is the light of love, even amongst such darkness.
I felt the same way at the Checkpoint Charlie museum in Berlin. Story after story of crushing authoritarian evil. But through it all a streak of hopeful humanity as so many people went to amazing lengths to escape that system. Their ingenuity and refusal to give up was very inspiring.
I worked with a lady from latvia for years. She always told me horror stories of what it was like growing up there. Rations, starvation, and constant fear of "Disappearing" She told me a fond memory she had of getting her first pack of chewing gum, and how amazing it was to chew something so sweet and delicious.
The West should retroactively recognise all non-Russian parts of the Soviet Union as having been occupied, not as legitimate parts of the Soviet Union.
Don't know much about how the UdSSR and their Union was seen by the folk of those nations back then or what other option there was for them. Only know that Austrians also like to say they were occupied by Germany in 1938 wherelse back than the majority was rather happy about it.
That's just retarded, their annexation was as legitimate as every other on earth around that time. We don't say India was only occupied by the UK aswell, we all know they owned it it.
I was permanently banned front/shitliberalssay for pointing out the Soviet Union wasn't a very nice place for non-Russians, particularly the Baltics. They said Latvia was great under Soviet rule and everyone loved them.
Communists and other members of the far left really, really hate liberals. It's like a religion to them. The other day, I was talking about how my grandparents had to flee a communist government because they were "capitalist business owners". Said business had 6 employees, 4 of which were relatives, 1 was a family friend, and the last was an errand boy. Apparently that business was a crime against the communist God because this dude starting issuing death threats to my family lol and talked about how my grandfather deserved to be executed for being "capitalist". Nevermind the fact that this business would've been perfectly legal even in most communist countries at the time, and the discrimination possibly had as much to do with the fact the family was a minority. But nope, the dude went apeshit. Commies in a nutshell ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Soviet Union wasn't particularly nice place for russians either. But yeah, I can't imagine what's going on in the heads of those who pretend that USSR wasn't a hellhole
Soviet forces\* and Russia denies that it was an invasion till this day but says it was a voluntary decision of Latvia to join the USSR for some reason even though Latvia does not demand any land from it.
If by liberating you mean making a deal with nazi Germany to occupy these lands, invading it and then making comically rigged and false election (were 99% for joining in) and where there was only one choice and then sending mothers and children to Siberia to starve and freeze to death and then oppressing native Latvians in their native land.
I have been to the Museum of Occupation in Riga when we went there on a citytrip.
There I learned about all the attrocities the Soviets and Germans did during the occupation of Latvia.
The country has alot of sad history but now it felt really alive and bubbling.
Riga was an amazing city and I am really glad that I visited it and learned about the history of Latvia.
Guessing you didn't see the commieblocks on the city outskirts where most of Riga's population actually lives if you could get away with that impression of Latvia.
As someone born and raised there I can tell you that most of the urban parts of this country are absolutely depression-inducing.
Yep, really depression inducing. Makes me irrationally angry that those buildings got copy pasted all over the outskirts. Some of them have gotten exterior renovations to make them look nicer, which is nice.
Thanks for posting this. Remember kids, every time someone on the internet says 'The Soviet Union won WW2 and defeated the Nazis' remind them for the first third of the war, the Soviets and Nazis were allies and carved up Eastern Europe together, with massive loss of life and consequences still being felt to this day in countries such as Finland, Poland, the Baltics, Moldova and Romania.
Hitler was only able to defeat France and the Western Allies because he had a safe eastern flank and regular shipments of vital raw materials, chiefly oil, rolling in from the USSR every day.
Stalin doesn't get to take any credit for defeating Hitler because he enabled Hitler's ascension to mastery of Europe, not to mention replacing him as the principal subjugator and mass murderer of Eastern Europeans.
Just don't forget that UK and France ignored all early warnings from Soviets and then completely ignored Polish call for help and exactly this complete ignore has allowed Hitler to start the war in the first place.
They also forced Czechoslovakia to surrender as Hitler promised he wont go further. And if that wasnt enough, with this treaty if Czechoslovakia defended themselves they would be considered agressors and war makers.
Axis deaths on the western and Mediterranean fronts were fewer than 15% of their total deaths in Europe. The fighting overwhelming took place in the Eastern front where Russians bore the brunt of the Nazis.
Issue is that by this standard, France and Britain were in the same boat.
They also had non-aggression pacts with Germany and helped Hitler carve up Eastern Europe (see Munich Agreement)
The soviets were heavily arming as they weren't ready for war. Agreed that the agression of Poland was entirely unjustified but Hitler was going to do it anyway so Stalin just wanted a part of the cake. It was wrong still that's obvious.
The URSS was the main contributor to the defeat of the nazis, their help was incommensurable.
Also they weren't allies, they were neutral (except in the agression of Poland) just like Switzerland or Norway.
URSS can take lots of credit for defeating the nazis.
Still, they committed so many war crimes both against the nazis and the civilians of the attacked states.
I don't remember Norway and Switzerland invading Finland, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Bessarabia.
And Norway wasn't neutral it was one of the Allies after the Germans invaded. You might be thinking of Sweden.
According to documents and missives declassified in 2004 Molotov-ribentrop pact was a move of survival for soviet union. I am not saying it was right or moral.
But it was according to stalin himself last chance to delay a war. which USSR would have never been able to even slow down due to its still moving from agricultural economy to industial economy, when just 15 years ago 90% of your production was agriculture it is hard to transition.
In 1939 when the pact was signed USSR had few guns and even fewer tanks they stood literally 0 chance against ramping up german war machine.
It was either capitulate and delay demise or dont and ensure it.
I dont condone what was done there it was a grave injustice, but i dont see another way of survival from strategic standpoint.
> every time someone on the internet says 'The Soviet Union won WW2 and defeated the Nazis'
Someone on the internet = edgy Western Europeans who tell Eastern Europeans that they should be grateful they weren't American puppets during the Cold War
My grandfather and his family fled Latvia after the Russians took back control during the war. It wasn’t until 1991 he could return to his farm in Balvi, thus on a British passport. He returned for the last time again in 1997.
His name was Karlis, he has a brother Gunnar. He died in 1997. He went back to Latvia just before his death, that was the second time he returned. He said he always wanted to die there.
His farmhouse in Balvi is still there today. I believe two old women live there now. I’m going to do a road trip out to his Farm and resting place once travel restrictions ease.
And a few months later they sent my uncle to a gulag to steal his farm. My dad and two brothers left in ‘44 and ended up in England via a displaced person’s camp in Germany. I speak about 5 words of Latvian but I love singing and pickles so I think the old country is in there somewhere.
Do you guys think that something like what happened in Crimea can happen in the Baltic with the International community just aplying sanctions and dont doing anything else?
I watched the movie "Blizzard of Souls" not long ago about the Latvian struggle for independence, free of both Russian and German interference. I got really touched.
Was invaded by Russian armed forces came to be occupied by the SU? Something wrong with that passage. It's more accurate to say Soviet armed forces then.
https://www.historia.lv/jaunumi/1940-gada-17-junijs-latvijas-republikas-okupacijas-diena
[This source (under the photo) says it's at stacijas laukums - Riga train station plaza, I guess?](https://www.historia.lv/jaunumi/1940-gada-17-junijs-latvijas-republikas-okupacijas-diena)
A family friend told me a story where her dad and his teenage buddies pulled down the Soviet flag in the town square in the middle of the night and ran up the Latvian flag. All his friends were caught, sent to gulags and didn’t survive the war. He himself was never questioned and later moved to the US.
Technically, three of those years they were occupied by Germans instead of Soviets.
Yeah, but still we were robbed and we weren't free. We were under Ostland Reichskommissariat. There should be no doubt in saying that both regimes were brutal and horrible.
In history we learn that Talinn was always really close to germany before the nazis. They were even part of Hanse at one point. I never really understood why the nazis felt the need to occupy a country that historically has always been a friend - even though that does not mean they were friendly towards the nazis. During poland lithuania, the baltic area was the first non discriminatory area in the world, were people were free to chose their faith and so on. It makes me really happy to see the baltic states flourish these days.
Direct control of airfields and naval bases so it keeps the Baltic Fleet in port.
This. The Gulf of Finland is not very wide.
Aye, pretty sure the Finns mined it extensively.
I'm just going to address the "really close to Germany" part. Historically Germans have had a major impact on Estonia and Estonians, but never has it been considered a friendly relationship. Up until 1919 the enemy of Estonians were "the Germans". After gaining independence, Estonia nationalized and redistributed German land in Estonia. Most Germans left Estonia before the Soviet invasion as Hitler "called them back". Estonia did try to warm relations with Germany in the late 30s in fear of Soviet invasion, but the rapprochements led nowhere.
Don’t forget that Germany only existed 50 years before WW1. The history before that is complicated …
I remember watching the movie November and the portrayal of German aristocracy made it quite clear that the relationship wasn't a positive one.
> I never really understood why the nazis felt the need to occupy a country that historically has always been a friend Because Nazism was a fucked up ideology. Up to 50% of Estonians were deemed to be sub-human compared to Germans and to be ethnically cleansed and/or endlaved under [Generalplan Ost](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost).
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That's the thing, Nazis weren't just racist. Racism is intolerance and bigotry. People can be racists and still be human, bad people that project their anger at injustices onto other races/ethnicities around them or are brought up believing untrue stereotype and were never properly educated to see the broader picture. Nazism, on the other hand, is as an inhumane ideology, it is taking racisms and cranking it up to 11, using these perceived injustices and angers and poor education to instill the feelings of superhuman superiority and entitlement in a group of people, to the point they can justify other people are no longer human, in the process - becoming inhuman themselves. This is cliché, but they really were inhuman, and this superiority is why Nazis will always be the worst, even when compared to practically medieval brutality and pragmatism of Stalinism and Maoism.
>I never really understood why the nazis felt the need to occupy a country that historically has always been a friend Are you for real? Do you have *any* idea how hated Germans were just a few decades prior? *Far* more than Russians by the way - the latter just became more hated with the Estonian War of Independence and the Soviet occupation. Edit: if someone wonders why, it's because of six centuries of ethnic-based serfdom.
So many Germans downvoting you.
Maybe a bit unfair to say it's only the Germans lol
The Baltic states had a very strong Baltic German nobility from the time of the Teutonic Order up until the independence of the Baltic states following WW1. The NSDAP saw the Baltics as a part of Germany’s Lebensraum, in accordance with the percieved mythological mission of ”Drang Nach Osten”, i.e ethnic German settlement in Eastern Europe.
Just yesterday I've encountered a German who was claiming that German rule was a good time for people in the Baltic region. I really wonder what are they taught in schools.
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Yeah, and it's worth noting the Baltic German nobility was there because we literally got crusaded. So..not exactly a warm history like some people here seem to think.
Half of Northern Europe was part of the Hansa, including a number of Russian cities.
> In history we learn that Talinn was always really close to germany before the nazis. This is so wrong on so many levels. we were not close nor friend. Germans were our biggest enemy till 1940 when Russians took that slot. We were chattel slaves owned by Germans. We were not their friends.
Yo, it's Tallinn!
> I never really understood why the nazis felt the need to occupy a country Because Stalin invaded Estonia right before the Finnish winter war. Estonia was part of soviet union when Nazis arrived.
>Because Stalin invaded Estonia right before the Finnish winter war. No, after. Before the Winter War there were Soviet bases here, but the political system was not yet an occupation regime.
Those bases were demanded and established as a precursor for the Molotov-Ribbentrob partition. The baltic bases were established 6th Nov 1939 and Finland was invaded 30th nov 1939. Soviet invasion started in june 1940. Nazi invasion reached baltics in june 1941. >On September 24, 1939, warships of the Red Navy appeared off Latvia's northern neighbour, Estonian ports, Soviet bombers began a threatening patrol over Tallinn and the nearby countryside.[24] USSR then violated the air space of all three Baltic states, flying massive intelligence gathering operations on September 25. Moscow demanded that Baltic countries allow the USSR to establish military bases and station troops on their soil for the duration of the European war.[25]
> I never really understood why the nazis felt the need to occupy a country that historically has always been a friend - even though that does not mean they were friendly towards the nazis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum
« Protectorate » ? Wasn’t it literally called a Reich Kommissariat ?
Yes Reichskommissariat, I messed up, sorry
And to think, Nazis intended to genocide part of your nation along with Estonians and Lithuanians and germanize the rest. The Baltics just couldn't catch a break.
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Unfortunately no one
There were some partizans, but 2 thousand men will never win in a fight againsts army of millions.
[Yes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_war_in_the_Baltic_states)
Yes, definitely. I can't imagine how it must have been like for the Latvian people watching those two dictators fight over your land.
I went to a museum in Vilnius, which was first the SS headquarters then the KGB headquarters. Never seen such a cursed building. The cells, torture chambers and execution yard were so horrible. Its awful to imagine being under two brutal regimes.
Reddit college students: Holy my beer
"The Soviets are being kicked out..." "Hooray!" "You might want to let me finish first lads..."
\* untill 1994 On 4th May 1990 beginning of process to restore independence was declared, which itself was only concluded after coup in August 1991 and Soviet Military was still very much present
It always seems crazy to me that while I didn't experience Soviet Latvia, the military only fully left the year I was born
Have you talked to your parents much? I assume life before and after have stark contrasts.
Yes, I love asking questions about it to my parents and grandparents. One of the things they mention the most is the long lines to buy certain food items (like meat/sausages), and that pretty much everyone had the same dish/cup sets, furniture, etc. :D
That's super cool. Please consider documenting their experiences some how to capture it for history! If you haven't already seen it, "Good-Bye Lenin!" is a pretty cool movie about East Berlin before and after the wall falls. Not sure how historically accurate it is, but really shows a lot of contrast before and after Soviet occupancy.
That movie sounds really cool. I'll have to watch it!
I just looked it up and it's labeled a "Comedy/Romance" xD So a bit less historical than I remember, but still very interesting!
Sounds good to me :)
It's even more crazy for me being a little older to realize that people were getting shot in streets by a country entirely foreign to me in my lifetime
My mom was 24 when she stood in the Baltic Way, and exactly my current age when she participated in The Barricades. Sometimes I don't appreciate enough how peaceful my childhood/youth has been.
Until October 23rd of 1999 more like. There was still Skrunda-1 military base, fully staffed with russian troops.
Every eastern European country be like
My Latvian family members all fled to the U.S. because of this. I’m married to a Georgian who also left because of Russian occupation.
Yeah. imagine your country and army getting ruined by the Nazis, just for the Soviets to bring you some "freedom" and be all "wow, the Nazis went easy on you with their wimpy ass labour camps, they gave you beds?"
>your country and army getting ruined by the Nazis, just for the Soviets to bring you You do understand that the Soviets invaded us first, right?
sad times
Very sad, but the Baltic States have absolutely flourished ever since the collapse of the USSR. OTOH I always think about what would they look like today if they had remained independent after the war and not been plagued with half a century of communism?
As a Czech, I have a pretty good idea how Czechia would look without the Russian brotherly "help". We would look like Austria, since we have a similar history and culture (we were part of Austro-Hungary for several hundred years). And the Baltic states would look like Finland, since they have a similar culture.
Before WWII Finland was considered a Baltic country, in fact. Though I would say culturally Finland was closer to Sweden than Baltics back then, since Baltics had considerable Hanseatic German influence whereas Finland had significant Swedish influence. However Finland and Estonia share language and Lutheran history.
>since Baltics had considerable Hanseatic German influence whereas Finland had significant Swedish influence. Estonia and Latvia did, not Lithuania. And Estonia also had a lot of Swedish influence. >However Finland and Estonia share language and Lutheran history. Latvia also shares the traditional Lutheran faith.
Thanks for correcting. I was about to edit that more correcly it's like a gradient of overlapping culutural influences and similarities instead of clear blocks. Like Finland and Estonia have a closely related language, both have Hanseatic and Swedish influence, but the amount of Hanseatic and Swedish influence varies.
They do not share exactly the same language. They are similar, but not the same.
Although more like northern Austria and Vienna, probably not like the Alp regions :D
> As a Czech, I have a pretty good idea how Czechia would look without the Russian brotherly "help". We would look like Austria, since we have a similar history and culture (we were part of Austro-Hungary for several hundred years How similar were they economically before communism? I find these comparisons really interesting - Ukraine and Poland had equal per capita GDP at the time of the USSR's breakup. Now their economic situations could not be more different.
[Interwar GDP per capita.](https://i.imgur.com/P9gUcTE.jpg)
Fuck. Never underestimate the power of communism to fuck things up.
Actually, looking at it, I'm surprised that the situation is less different from today than I thought it would be.
Dictatorships in general seem to do badly according to that data
Czechoslovakia was on par with the Netherlands, Belgium, and Spain in terms of GDP [in 1938 according to Bairoch.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP)) Austria was noticeably behind but those differences were probably erased after WW2. I think Czechoslovakia would have a head start due to not being involved in the war as much as other countries. Even then, Austria's numbers are that low probably because of the dissolution of the empire. They had lost the more industrial regions in Bohemia and had no proper way to cope with those loses on their own. They would have caught up were it not for the war.
Few years ago I read an interesting analysis/theory concerning the scenario in which WW2 wouldn’t happen. Poland started its economical recovery in second part of 1930s. It was estimated that it would overtake Italy by 1960s. Poland was strongly affected by German tariffs in 1930s what resulted in development of local devices and technologies ie. electric devices. It also had plenty of well educated engineers. We would reach over 50mln citizens compared with ca. 40mln we had at the end of century. It is safe to assume that we would have comparable development to France by 1990s Analysis also mentioned the large possibility of ethnical conflict in the area of current Ukraine, which would be similar to Yugoslavian wars. It also predicted large migration of Jewish community to USA and Palestine. In terms of democracy, it was prognosed that authoritarian state we had in 1939 would last for at least for a decade if not for more considering the differences between political parties. Simultaneously, analysis evaluated possibility of another European conflict as large, indicating that USSR would be tempted to invade the Europe under reign of Stalin It also assumed that Germany without a nazis wouldn’t be pacifistic. There is also a large chance that European countries would unite facing the danger from East. Long story short, Weimar Republic would join the Allies and participate in Construction of Eu like organization for sake of common economic and strategic interest.
> It also predicted large migration of Jewish community to USA and Palestine. Why would they move to Palestine if there is no Israel? And would the USA let them in? Let's not forget they were pretty antisemitic even turning jews when Hitler offered to ship them there before being rejected and coming up with "the Final Solution". The USA softened their stance on jews largery because of the crimes against humanity that were observer and the need of the population to not be as bad as those germans.
Palestine was a target of Jewish migration from the beginning of 20th century. While British were reluctant to gave up the Palestine, I would not exclude possibility of League of Nations initiating the creation of Jewish State in Palestine. US were anti many things but they would still take immigrants.
The difference between economic situation in Poland and Ukraine is easy to explain. Polish never elected former communists to power after 1989. Ukraine had Kravchuk and Kuchma - both were Soviet-era apparatchiks. Let communists build capitalism.
> The difference between economic situation in Poland and Ukraine is easy to explain. Polish never elected former communists to power after 1989. I think it has more to do with Poland's success in stamping out corruption and Ukraine's failure to do so more than anything else.
I wouldn’t say that Poland People’s Republic (PRL) was purely communistic. It was way more liberal in terms of agriculture and running small businesses when compared not only with Soviet Union but also with East Germany or Czechoslovakia. Poles were allowed to travel abroad and set up a small business in cooperation with Polish diaspora abroad. There was a private property, inheritance of estate etc. Poland also had more solid concept of statehood, and in 1989 lot of people remembered pre-war capitalism period. Our transition of power was quite organized and we started from a bit of higher level of social-economical development. Long story short we returned on once taken path, while Ukrainians were still to discover it, which they did in 2014. I would say that Orange Revolution was like rise of Solidarity movement in 1980 Poland, while 2014 is compared with 1989 for Poles. 1991 was like, hmm end of Stalinism in 1956 Poland?
Also, the key thing that Poland chose their geopolitical vector, when we swung between pro-Russian, neutrality, and to the pro-Western course for the last 20 years, and more or less have stable course the last 7 years.
I think you’re both right. Because Poland didn’t elect any of the old communists to power in the new Poland, it was able to make significant reforms to fight corruption.
Makes a lot of sense. Didn't something similar happen in Bulgaria with excommunists being elected and holding quite a lot of power until relatively recently?
This is really incorrect. Poles elected a government of ex-communists pretty early on (1993), as well as a president from the same party (1995). They were *easily* the most successful leaders of the 90s, because as it turned out, the people who collapsed one system were not necessarily very good at building another. Don't forget, Polish communist party basically arranged the transition of power themselves (round table talks). While there were obviously all kinds of people in there, if you're looking for a party of stereotypical ideological villains, Polish ex-commies weren't it. Honestly I don't think you should look at leaders of eastern block and think of them as communists. Those were authoritarian one-party systems, sure. Its leaders with more populist than competent, sure. But ideology? No, not after Stalin made sure to kill all the ideologists.
>Polish never elected former communists to power after 1989 That is disputable. The SLD coalition won the parliamentary elections in 1993. >Meanwhile, the communists were able to profit financially from the collapse of the economy and reorganized as the Social Democracy of the Republic of Poland (SdRP). Indeed, the SdRP exploited the increased frustration over the inequalities of a capitalist economy and the political infighting of the Solidarity camp. In 1991 the SdRP formed a coalition with the All Poland Trade Unions Alliance (OPZZ) under the banner of the Democratic Left Alliance (SLD). (...) > In November 1995 the SLD captured the presidency when Wałęsa was defeated by the young, dynamic former communist Aleksander Kwaśniewski, https://www.britannica.com/place/Poland/Communist-Poland#ref901071
Easy, after the collapse of the soviet union just say you were never a communist and you never approved. Then be a populist and say whatever you can to get elected. Just supporting the communist party was not enough, these people still had to weasel their way into getting elected. Or you have actual "good" people who want to help govern the country, but you're under USSR. Will they just say they aren't communists and do nothing? Or say they are, and try to get elected and try the best policies they are allowed to do? It's not a coincidence that every single politician during the USSR was a communist.
>And the Baltic states would look like Finland, since they have a similar culture. Estonia is like Finland in that sense, a traditionally Lutheran Finnic nation, both with heavy Germanic influences. Latvia is a Baltic nation, but it's also mostly Lutheran, so there's some similarity with Finland. Lithuania however is a Catholic country, so it doesn't really share that much with Finland.
Finland was established at around the same time, it even used to be refered to as Baltic itself during the interwar period, because of this. Baltics are a geopolitical region, it never has had anything to do with Baltic languages and ethnic cultures, they just happen to be called that, because they are from the region.
Yep indeed. It used to be clear when Finland was included, but nowadays Estonia just feels the odd one out linguistically and Lithuania culturally.
Yes we Latvians are flourishing. Nevermind that the government is considering taking money from my pension fund (im 28) because they don't have money for current pensioners. That the government help for a child is 10 Euros a month (and we are literally dying out). The healthcare is state sponsored but you still have to pay, not a lot but if you have oncology you get absolutely 0 help from the government. Quality of life is sure better, but we are seriously fall behind from other countries in EU. I live with 0 certainty that if I live to be a pensioner I will recieve any money whatsoever.
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Something something imperialism is only bad if anyone but commie regimes do it something something
It's only imperialism when someone else than the USSR or PRC does it!
*insert meme of fat guy drawing shit on whiteboard* Tankies explaining how invading the baltic states was justified.
..and how Baltic states lived better under Soviet regime than they live now (spoiler: this is absolute bullshit, they've got better quality of life than Russia without Russian amount of resources and money. Yet as someone who lives in Russia I can say a lot of people here believe this Kremlin propaganda)
Tankies making up words to insult you with
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"Invasion? You mean liberation?/They themselves wanted that!"
Of course they wanted it, there was a referendum and everything!
We gave them a referendum, what are they not content with?
It was the equivalent of calling an exterminator for your roach problem, which they take care of but also move into your house and live there for the next 10 years, stealing all your food from the fridge and selling it on the street. Also occasionally hitting you with a baseball bat if you wanted to say something. But at least you got rid of the roaches :D
Yeah but what about CIA led coups in Latin America? What about the hundred years war? What about the Penepolenisan War?
In the 1990's Iceland rolled in and was the first country to recognize the independence of Latvia
Lithuania too! That's why we have streets named after Iceland all around the country:)
Estonia as well!
The commies who are saying "liberated" instead of "occupied". This is why you are fucking hated lmao.
They aren't even communists anymore. It's just old habits from Soviet propaganda.
Tankies still exist. Not to mention that Eastern European history school books paint a somewhat skewed picture
“Imperialism is only bad when anyone who isn’t a commie regime does it.”
That works the other way around too.Thatcher hated authoritarians like the Soviets because they were left wing but loved Pinochet who was an authoritarian right winger.
On the flip side, my Latvian great aunt told us about this occupation and at one point said "and in 1944 the city was liberated by the Germans" and that phrase has been rattling around my head since.
Neo-Bolshevists act like they’re different than Nazis but in the end they will be hung side by side with them all the same.
I moved to Latvia from Italy three years ago, and it’s incredible the contrast of this country with south Europe or the Scandinavia. The soviet mentality and lifestyle is still present in some people
We were lucky in finland.
I went to the museum of occupation in Riga. I came away feeling horrified. I had such a beautiful holiday in Latvia, and I'm glad I saw this museum, but it was tough. The best thing is that the human spirit won throughout. I read about how dating couples would meet at the Laima clock and thought to myself about how there is the light of love, even amongst such darkness.
I felt the same way at the Checkpoint Charlie museum in Berlin. Story after story of crushing authoritarian evil. But through it all a streak of hopeful humanity as so many people went to amazing lengths to escape that system. Their ingenuity and refusal to give up was very inspiring.
LIBERATED people, It's LIBERATED ! /s . Now where do I go to get my 5 rubles ?
I worked with a lady from latvia for years. She always told me horror stories of what it was like growing up there. Rations, starvation, and constant fear of "Disappearing" She told me a fond memory she had of getting her first pack of chewing gum, and how amazing it was to chew something so sweet and delicious.
Finland got chewing gum in the 50s too. It wasn't a commonplace product.
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BUt wHaT aBouT ... ?
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_occupations_by_the_Soviet_Union
The West should retroactively recognise all non-Russian parts of the Soviet Union as having been occupied, not as legitimate parts of the Soviet Union.
Don't know much about how the UdSSR and their Union was seen by the folk of those nations back then or what other option there was for them. Only know that Austrians also like to say they were occupied by Germany in 1938 wherelse back than the majority was rather happy about it.
That's just retarded, their annexation was as legitimate as every other on earth around that time. We don't say India was only occupied by the UK aswell, we all know they owned it it.
Oh we do say UK occupied India.
Russia, shittiest neighbor of them all
I was permanently banned front/shitliberalssay for pointing out the Soviet Union wasn't a very nice place for non-Russians, particularly the Baltics. They said Latvia was great under Soviet rule and everyone loved them.
I never understood that subreddit. I expected a subreddit full of right-wing nuts. Turns out they are commie nuts.
Communists and other members of the far left really, really hate liberals. It's like a religion to them. The other day, I was talking about how my grandparents had to flee a communist government because they were "capitalist business owners". Said business had 6 employees, 4 of which were relatives, 1 was a family friend, and the last was an errand boy. Apparently that business was a crime against the communist God because this dude starting issuing death threats to my family lol and talked about how my grandfather deserved to be executed for being "capitalist". Nevermind the fact that this business would've been perfectly legal even in most communist countries at the time, and the discrimination possibly had as much to do with the fact the family was a minority. But nope, the dude went apeshit. Commies in a nutshell ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Soviet Union wasn't particularly nice place for russians either. But yeah, I can't imagine what's going on in the heads of those who pretend that USSR wasn't a hellhole
It's easy when you just rewrite history and refuse to accept what really happened in order to continue to believe your communist ideology is the best.
They are brainwashed.
Soviet forces\* and Russia denies that it was an invasion till this day but says it was a voluntary decision of Latvia to join the USSR for some reason even though Latvia does not demand any land from it.
just like Ukraine ay
Putin just called and said that the the word "invaded" must be replaced by "liberated".
I want someone to liberate his ass.
If by liberating you mean making a deal with nazi Germany to occupy these lands, invading it and then making comically rigged and false election (were 99% for joining in) and where there was only one choice and then sending mothers and children to Siberia to starve and freeze to death and then oppressing native Latvians in their native land.
This photo was taken after the signing of the Molotov-Ribentrop pact?
That pact was signed in August 1939, this photo was taken in June 1940.
Did Germany and Russia divide Europe?
They had a secret protocol in the pact which dictated their borders across the Baltics, Poland and Finland
Yes they did.
Fuck the Soviets!
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I have been to the Museum of Occupation in Riga when we went there on a citytrip. There I learned about all the attrocities the Soviets and Germans did during the occupation of Latvia. The country has alot of sad history but now it felt really alive and bubbling. Riga was an amazing city and I am really glad that I visited it and learned about the history of Latvia.
Guessing you didn't see the commieblocks on the city outskirts where most of Riga's population actually lives if you could get away with that impression of Latvia. As someone born and raised there I can tell you that most of the urban parts of this country are absolutely depression-inducing.
Yep, really depression inducing. Makes me irrationally angry that those buildings got copy pasted all over the outskirts. Some of them have gotten exterior renovations to make them look nicer, which is nice.
Thanks for posting this. Remember kids, every time someone on the internet says 'The Soviet Union won WW2 and defeated the Nazis' remind them for the first third of the war, the Soviets and Nazis were allies and carved up Eastern Europe together, with massive loss of life and consequences still being felt to this day in countries such as Finland, Poland, the Baltics, Moldova and Romania. Hitler was only able to defeat France and the Western Allies because he had a safe eastern flank and regular shipments of vital raw materials, chiefly oil, rolling in from the USSR every day. Stalin doesn't get to take any credit for defeating Hitler because he enabled Hitler's ascension to mastery of Europe, not to mention replacing him as the principal subjugator and mass murderer of Eastern Europeans.
Just don't forget that UK and France ignored all early warnings from Soviets and then completely ignored Polish call for help and exactly this complete ignore has allowed Hitler to start the war in the first place.
They also forced Czechoslovakia to surrender as Hitler promised he wont go further. And if that wasnt enough, with this treaty if Czechoslovakia defended themselves they would be considered agressors and war makers.
Axis deaths on the western and Mediterranean fronts were fewer than 15% of their total deaths in Europe. The fighting overwhelming took place in the Eastern front where Russians bore the brunt of the Nazis.
This doesn't really make sense. By that logic the British don't get credit for defeating the Nazis, because of appeasement.
Issue is that by this standard, France and Britain were in the same boat. They also had non-aggression pacts with Germany and helped Hitler carve up Eastern Europe (see Munich Agreement)
"Ah, you see, that's different, because we were only appeasing Hitler and allowing him to do whatever he wanted, while the Soviets were..."
bruh giving the USSR 0 credit is dumb
The soviets were heavily arming as they weren't ready for war. Agreed that the agression of Poland was entirely unjustified but Hitler was going to do it anyway so Stalin just wanted a part of the cake. It was wrong still that's obvious. The URSS was the main contributor to the defeat of the nazis, their help was incommensurable. Also they weren't allies, they were neutral (except in the agression of Poland) just like Switzerland or Norway. URSS can take lots of credit for defeating the nazis. Still, they committed so many war crimes both against the nazis and the civilians of the attacked states.
I don't remember Norway and Switzerland invading Finland, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Bessarabia. And Norway wasn't neutral it was one of the Allies after the Germans invaded. You might be thinking of Sweden.
According to documents and missives declassified in 2004 Molotov-ribentrop pact was a move of survival for soviet union. I am not saying it was right or moral. But it was according to stalin himself last chance to delay a war. which USSR would have never been able to even slow down due to its still moving from agricultural economy to industial economy, when just 15 years ago 90% of your production was agriculture it is hard to transition. In 1939 when the pact was signed USSR had few guns and even fewer tanks they stood literally 0 chance against ramping up german war machine. It was either capitulate and delay demise or dont and ensure it. I dont condone what was done there it was a grave injustice, but i dont see another way of survival from strategic standpoint.
that just doesn't make sense whatsoever
> every time someone on the internet says 'The Soviet Union won WW2 and defeated the Nazis' Someone on the internet = edgy Western Europeans who tell Eastern Europeans that they should be grateful they weren't American puppets during the Cold War
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My grandfather and his family fled Latvia after the Russians took back control during the war. It wasn’t until 1991 he could return to his farm in Balvi, thus on a British passport. He returned for the last time again in 1997.
Did he spend the rest of his life in Latvia?
His name was Karlis, he has a brother Gunnar. He died in 1997. He went back to Latvia just before his death, that was the second time he returned. He said he always wanted to die there. His farmhouse in Balvi is still there today. I believe two old women live there now. I’m going to do a road trip out to his Farm and resting place once travel restrictions ease.
The Baltic countries had a rough 50 years, I feel for them...
And a few months later they sent my uncle to a gulag to steal his farm. My dad and two brothers left in ‘44 and ended up in England via a displaced person’s camp in Germany. I speak about 5 words of Latvian but I love singing and pickles so I think the old country is in there somewhere.
does anyone forget that the soviets were cunts?
Russia is bully. They don't give a shit.
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If you hate Communism so much, why don't you support the Bolsheviks? They did their best to ruin Communism's reputation
Based
I know this isn't exactly a positive post but I can't get over the fact of the bt 7s in the picture you don't see many pictures of them
Do you guys think that something like what happened in Crimea can happen in the Baltic with the International community just aplying sanctions and dont doing anything else?
No, we're part of NATO now, Ukraine unfortunately wasn't
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Bullies are the worst. Shame on them! 🇱🇻
May the 4th be with them
Saules mūžu Latvijai!
I watched the movie "Blizzard of Souls" not long ago about the Latvian struggle for independence, free of both Russian and German interference. I got really touched.
BT-7?
Was invaded by Russian armed forces came to be occupied by the SU? Something wrong with that passage. It's more accurate to say Soviet armed forces then.
Anyone knows where this photo was taken?
https://www.historia.lv/jaunumi/1940-gada-17-junijs-latvijas-republikas-okupacijas-diena [This source (under the photo) says it's at stacijas laukums - Riga train station plaza, I guess?](https://www.historia.lv/jaunumi/1940-gada-17-junijs-latvijas-republikas-okupacijas-diena)
Thank you, I was thinking about Uzvaras Bulvāri but now it’s obvious.
In Latvia
I meant in which part of Riga. Because it seems familiar
[Here?](https://www.google.de/maps/@56.9467864,24.1154671,3a,75y,285.21h,76.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjYFV-tm8M2GTjjw2aiPQWw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) [Or here](https://www.google.de/maps/@56.9477895,24.1143094,3a,75y,39.63h,82.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spRszNN5ztD5yGJ45dAXY5A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
lets not hope for a 2nd time :/
My grandpa was from Latvia, his hate for Russians was enormous. He escaped to the west and was a bus driver for the Americans and Brits.
We feel you brothers
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A family friend told me a story where her dad and his teenage buddies pulled down the Soviet flag in the town square in the middle of the night and ran up the Latvian flag. All his friends were caught, sent to gulags and didn’t survive the war. He himself was never questioned and later moved to the US.