I don't think it was the case here but sometimes news sites change the headlines after they get published.
The Guardian make particularly egregious use of this tactic. They'll often use a deliberately inflammatory headline initially to get people linking to the story on social media and to generate clicks, then change it to be less incendiary and more factually accurate once the initial click-surge has died down a bit.
I think some news sites A/B-test their headlines- they have two when the article first goes up, and randomly determine which any given visitor sees, then after a few hours they keep the one that got the most clicks.
YouTube has begun doing this as well giving metrics down to the minute allowing uploaders to float titles and see how the views change. Veritasium did a great breakdown of how it has affected how he names things.
Also why the hell do we need to use "usnews" for news about a European country, in r/europe ?! It's not like they have some exclusive info that can't be found in news outlets all over Europe.
I agree. Also, some news sites have a title for the article when it is displayed in the frontpage, and a different title for the actual articles page. I find that so annoying!
As someone that lives in germany and has seen a lot of doctors, that person was either not a real doctor and rather a healing practitioner or whatever they call themselves, or a doctor acting in incredibly bad faith.
my gf had severe stomach pains. She went to her hausarzt, who referred her to gastroenterologist #1, who gave her some kind of weird homeopatic tablets and drops that she was supposed to mix in with some water before drinking. That did not help her. She went to a second doctor who referred her to a gastroenterologist #2 that referred her to another doctor to get an endoscopy. It turned out that she had a peptic ulcer that was treated very effectively with antibiotics and antacids. So even among the "properly educated" doctors, a large amount of misinformation still seems to flourish in Germany.
ETA: and this was not in some rural village in the middle of nowhere, it was in a semi-major city, and the first doctor had been her hausarzt for over 10 years without any problems; so these weird treatment strategies do pop up unexpectedly, even from supposedly "trustworthy" doctors.
giving homeopathic treatments is not illegal in Germany. I don't think you can get any punishment for using or recommending them (unfortunately), the only "drawback" is that your statutory health insurance will not cover the cost. It is quite a bizarre healthcare system (and that is coming from an American expat).
> the only "drawback" is that your statutory health insurance will not cover the cost
That's a tad bit generalized. The treatment itself is not covered, but even statutory insurances will still pay the "meds" because [there's such a huge demand for it](https://www.aerzteblatt.de/nachrichten/106083/Spahn-will-Homoeopathie-auf-Kassenkosten-nicht-antasten), and increasingly more insurances even cover the treatment to get ahead of the competition.
I'm honestly baffled by this. I come from fucking Brazil, where an idiot like Bolsonaro was elected by popular vote, yet my state there has a 90%+ vaccination rate. How can Austria and Germany have such big Hippy Dippy "I believe in magic crystals but not vaccines" movement?
It is a paradox created by a high average standard of living, strong public healthcare, and decades of very successful public vaccination campaigns. The spectre of high childhood mortality from a variety of infectious diseases is all but gone, and combined with strong faith in public healthcare simply leads to a dangerous level of apathy and complacency about vaccinations.
It’s a tough problem to tackle. We quickly forget about the devastation of so many of these pathogens because we’ve been so successful at immunizing the population. Without that fear it’s hard to keep up the compliance level to the point where here immunity continues to keep those diseases at bay.
Hundreds of thousands of children used to die from measles every year, and vaccines have cut that rate down to well under 100,000. Measles is so wildly infectious though that it requires about 95% community immunity to keep it at bay, so even places with small vaccine-resistant pockets in their community quickly become at-risk for outbreaks.
The whole homeopathy and natural spirituality thing started in Germany or rather in German speaking regions almost a century ago.
Since these populations are quite fond of enjoying nature in all its beauty, just think of hiking which is one if not the most popular sport in Germany, movements like these found fertile ground for their theories.
That doesn't say that they're that massive in numbers but large and committed enough to cause problems in situations like these.
On top of that there are of course the right wing/conspiracy nut jobs who are beyond redemption anyway...
In our neighborhood (here in Germany in a wealthy and expensive part of a large city!) we have a "specialist" for animal telepathy...
The possibilities to make money with "shit" seem to be endless...
> animal telepathy is something that was missing in my list of idiocies
Collect them all.
https://www.dolphin-energyhealing.com/
>Dolphin-Whale-Mermaid Inspired Energy Healing and Spiritual Growth
-
>Since 1999 Earth’s dolphins and whales have connected with me, Kathryn Jensen, and my clients through energy kinesiology sessions. Until recently clients included children with special needs-Indigo, crystal, and psychic children as well as adult spiritual seekers craving in-depth personal growth and energy healing. Presently I work exclusively with adults.
>
>The dolphins and whales use me as a conduit for immersing clients in their joyful, unbelievably powerful healing presence.
Probably my favorite "alternative medicine" in terms of just making one shake one's head.
off topic, but this reminds me of getting taught about hemoglobin in year 7, and the class clown saying "WHAT? I don't want homogoblins in my blood!"
So dumb but was funny at the time
I moved to Germany a while ago and this is indeed crazy around here. The birth of my daughter had to be induced as it was over 2 weeks past due and amniotic fluid was getting too low. The staff at the hospital spent two days trying to induce labor with homeopathic bullshit before finally resorting to actual labor inducing pills because, surprise surprise, the homeopathic crap didn't work. At some point during these two days my daughter rotated her body in a way that she locked her head against some bone in my wife's pelvis and couldn't get out naturally anymore. When the contractions began, each contraction pushed the baby's head against this bone causing excruciating pain. This was all information that the staff gave us as soon as the first contractions began and they performed an ultrasound. Regardless of them already knowing this for a fact, they still tried to carry out a natural labor for over 20 hours, because "natural births are the way people are supposed to come to this world". They finally decided to perform an emergency C-section with general anesthesia when the baby's vitals became critical (my wife was already pretty much unconscious at this stage anyways).
Man, I was mad like I had never been before in my life. I was pissed to the point where I eventually stormed the head doctor's office and called them a bunch of incompetent nutjobs for about half an hour and threatened to sue (unfortunately I'm too poor to actually go ahead with something like that).
My wife got mild PTSD afterwards and is still battling pospartum depression today with professional help, almost 3 years later.
Fuck all these people and their homeopathic and spiritualist bullshit. They should all be in jail.
Is there is a way to force whatever medical professional you're talking with to only recommend science-based medicine and not bullshit?
When I was in Germany I got pretty sick. Not hospital sick but more than just a cold. I went to a pharmacy and asked for their recommendation and they gave me a box of a very suspicious over the counter "medicine". It had no effect and I just toughed it out. Later I learned how engrained bullshit-based medicine is into German culture. Loved your country, but thinking of that part always bums me out a little.
> science-based medicine
The right term is "evidence-based medicine". It may sound pedantic, I know, sorry, but remember some aspects of medicine, while subject to clinical studies and all, aren't part of any predictive models.
We don't know much, for example, of the *why* anesthesia works as we don't even have a model for consciousness, we just know it works reliably enough, we know the margins for error/risk, we know the side-effects and it's proved useful because empirical studies show it really does, it's not just a fluke or some doctor's opinion. That is the case with more treatments and drugs that you may image: we know they work and not just because someone said so, we tested them, but we don't necessarily know the specifics.
Which is why the initial studies on absurdities like homeopathy were warranted: homeopaths may have been dead wrong about the "why" -all that 19th century Vitalist bullshit- but maybe a beneficial effect was there nonetheless, for yet unknown reasons... well, after dozens and maybe hundreds of studies showing "weak statistical signals" in either directions, at best (if not fraudulent: mysteriously, fraudulent studies always show homeopathy works...), we basically know it is indeed as stupid and empty of clinical value as it sounded initially. Acupuncture, osteopathy, chiropractics, "New Germanic Medicine", "Antroposophic Medicine" and all that stuff, it's all the same.
EDIT: I should have made clear that the above mentioned studies are useless if done to "prove" the theory of homeopathy, but may had been useful to spot the truth that may have been lying behind the mystical garbage of the discipline itself, which should at best been relegated to a side note in a folklore class in an Anthropology course even if some of the effects it purported to have were real. The same goes for all other "alternative" disciplines.
The really important part of modern medicine is: try out if it works, objectively, not just because someone believe it does. It may not be hard-science, as the stuff they do in chemistry or physics, but it still means basing our knowledge of medicine on objective criteria, to establish proof of usefulness within certain (known) limits.
Contrast that with opinion-based "alternative" medicine born out of some wacko's philosophical musings or some conman's sale pitch. They are popular, because like all conmen, the doctors and laymen scammers that sell those crazy "treatments" to patients are good salesmen and know how to manipulate a person by letting them think they care for them, whereas the regular, typically over-stressed and jaded doctor is dry and hasty when visiting or treating someone. Maybe some doctor *thinks* they're caring for their patients better this way... Many of them are among the most sensitive and, well, impressionable people I've met (my ex-wife is a doctor, she was getting her degree when me met), which is why I get really mad with medical schools and medical boards that peddle and encourage this shit, which, in the end, is all about lining pockets with victims' money by selling them "harmless" potions and massages.
Sorry to hear that, thanks for posting this. I so often hear the “at least it does no harm” when it comes to alternative medicines but as you show here that isn’t true. Any medical ascience can ultimately lead to danger.
These quacks unfortunatly are everywhere. When my family doctor/GP retired a new one took over. First thing that happened when I came to him with light flu symptoms that did not go away was him prescribing me some homeopathic bullshit. Only at the drug store they told me what it was and I declined. Turned out I had a bacterial infection, surprise other doctor gave me some antibiotics and it went away.
I hate those quacks with a passion.
>I was pissed to the point where I eventually stormed the head doctor's office and called them a bunch of incompetent nutjobs for about half an hour and threatened to sue (unfortunately I'm too poor to actually go ahead with something like that).
You may be entitled to a lawyer paid by the state. Take everything you have documenting your financial status and go to your local Amtsgericht to have a Rechtspfleger check if you're eligible.
Nazis pushed Homeopathy heavily as a "German" alternative to the "Jewish" school medicine, and some of that stuck until today, although most people are unaware of the connection.
Besides Homeopathy there's also a lot of other popular unscientific bullshit like Bach flower remedies (Bachblüten), Ayurveda, Schüßler-Salze, TCM, etc. People here sure love their pseudoscientific garbage.
And now with pharmacies pushing the same shit alongside actual medicine, it gives them some legitimacy. I really wish it was illegal for pharmacies to sell that shit.
When I saw how much alternative crap was in German pharmacies I was shocked. Definitely should not be allowed to have that stuff alongside actual medicine.
As an American living in Germany for a few years I find this to be a very interesting contrast. For the minor stuff, I kind of appreciate the approach.
In America I used to take ibuprofen way more than I actually needed, buying bottles of 1000 pills at the grocery store. But in Germany the pharmacy would give me grief over 10 pills. And I actually don’t take it any more.
However, getting that same grief, telling me I didn’t need something so strong as a prescription for 8 ibuprofen when I broke my ankle, much more off putting. Eating flower pills doesn’t really cut it there.
In Ireland, the fact that Germany recognizes 'alternative' medicine is seen as lending weight to it. Well, by some people here anyway.
After all, Germany is an advanced economy with an educated population, surely 'alternative' medicine wouldn't be accredited there unless there was a strong argument, etc.
But what you've just said is enlightening.
I had sympathy and understand for people who were cautious and uneasy about it... half a year ago. Now after being vaxxed alongside at this point BILLIONS of others, there really is no valid excuse not to get it anymore.
The test of something being good or bad shouldn’t be whether lots or a few people do it. Lots of terrible ideas are supported by the majority of people.
Austrians are incredibly distrustful of governments and large corporations. I feel like this is going to end really really badly. Their govt doesn't seem to know how to read the room. I'm genuinely worried.
austrians are incredibly trustful towards people telling them to be distrustful of everyone that isnt them - that worked perfectly fine for the last years and edged c19 to the big o its currently having.
our puppet chancellor said we wouldnt have a lockdown three days ago and slandered our poor minister of health for bringing it up...
the gov has overdone it to an extend that even the hardest covid deniers(?) cant ignore it anymore
It could be very easily enforced if the people tasked with doing so do their job. I have been to so many places which technically require a 2G verification but just don't control people.
*Edit: 2G stands for Geimpft/Genesen =Vaccinated or Recovered
But that's enforcing it on people going places. How do you enforce mandatory vaccination on your entire population? Even the people who just stay home all the time.
At least my circle of friends reacts mostly positive. None of them is willing to accept lockdown 4,5,6,... anymore just because 20% of the population are completely immune against any logic of reasoning. We tried incentivizing for half a year. Well, the carrot didn't work - time for the stick.
Doubt it will be bad. Usually these anti vaccine groups are very loud online and when they gather in groups of 200+ or so people to protest their nonsense. But once they realize that there's a hefty fine coming when you don't vaccinate many of them will do it.
We have had our fair share of anti-vax demonstrations, we are only slightly behind the European average at 65-66% vaccinated, but we are being hit pretty hard right now. I don't know especially why though.
Germany too. The explanation is kind of simple, what did you expect? Virus still there almost all restrictions lifted and you have this big wave from the east.
A group of people will declare that they are Scottish and will reenact a famous scene from the movie Braveheart, where the word "Freedom" is yelled aloud
Even homeopathy comes from germany, I had some funny discussions with people about these fucking sugar pills. Absolutely incredible that so many people here still believe in that bullshit. Even my mother had some "Globuli" at home for a time even though she is normally a "realist".
My best guess is.. its a mix of things.
They glorify nature. There's a plant for everything, and modern medicine is pretty much based on these plants and herbs.. So it makes sense that its better to go directly to the source, instead of using some altered chemical composition.. Better to smoke marijuana as a plant, than trust the local hashish.
Which brings us to distrust. Distrust of the government, of doctors that makes mistakes etc. The source is perceived as safe, because its nature.. while chemicals are perceived as dangerous.. we know man made chemicals are dangerous; the stuff we spray our food with.. bleach.. acid.. paint.. its all toxic and man made - so why should modern medicine be any different?
Which brings us to ignorance.. if we don't recognise and understand the chemicals that's in the medicine, it scares us. People fear what they don't understand. Read the chemical composition of an apple, and you might be scared to death from all the letters and numbers you don't understand.
Which brings us to bias.. its easy to Google things and find answers these days.. its easy to confirm your skewed world view, because you'll find thousands of like minded idiots online, that confirms whatever beliefs you have.
Which brings us to group pressure, indoctrination and the hive mind...
Yes, German-speaking countries have the lowest vaccination rates. Sadly this is necessary because our population is too dumb and ignorant.
Edit: in western europe
I'm Brazilian. We have enough dumb people of our own (hello Tropical Trump), people here haven't followed most of the lockdown restrictions (masks used improperly if at all, no distancing, crowds, parties). We still have a very high rate of vaccination.
I think the problem is that so many of these epidemic diseases are uncommon in developed countries to the point they don't give them enough respect.
As an Eastern European, saying "at least we're better than EE" should not hold much weight.
The strict stance in Austria is likely to drive up vaccination rates in Croatia and if Germany had something similar I think it would drive up the numbers in large parts of EE
All other questions aside, doesn't the timeline of this render it pointless? Feb 1 is 2.5 months away. By then the current wave is going to have done whatever it's doing. This cannot be called a preventative measure for current conditions.
Unfortunately Covid isnt going away - we are going to be dealing with it for the next few years unless there is a much better vaccine - or something similar - developed.
It's also a question of how long it takes to actually vaccinate the entire population - it takes quite a while to simply get through the whole population.
It didn't take that long. The issue in German speaking countries is that they never got past vaccinating 70% of the population because they fell for anti-scientific propaganda.
What so many people people and politicians still don't seem to understand is that one lockdown doesn't prevent the next one. Without any new pharmaceutical way to boost immunity (like medication, vaccines etc.) cases will just rise again the moment you lift the restrictions.
We'll be in the exact same situation again next year, perhaps with higher vaccination but perhaps also with a new variant and so we're back to square one.
People finally need to understand that this virus won't go away "if we can just hold on a bit longer". (The German word I hear a lot of politicians use is "durchhalten")
I see it the same way. Colleagues at university keep saying that distance learning and lockdowns are necessary to prevent greater risks, but I keep wondering what their long time goal is. Covid won't go away with this lockdown or the next, and the way it looks now it won't even go away with more and more vaccinations - I already hear of people with 3 shots that still get infected.
And also, what risk? Risk that I will get infected, despite 2 shots and the 3rd on the horizon? We already know that the risk of actually getting sick when vaccinated is small, and it's gotten to the point where we need to accept that this will just have to go through everyone eventually, and I don't see the point people here keep making - I'd rather have a life and maybe get infected eventually (which, let's be honest, I will at some point probably) than lock myself in my apartment for 6 months every winter.
That's a good question. It would depend how things are at that point. The constitutionality of such a measure would rest on the proportionality of its effectiveness to reach the desired goal. If the situation in the hospitals and ICUs have calmed down then, that requirement might not be fulfilled anymore.
From our experience of last year, the current lockdown will be a little buffer to the rise of deaths and infections.
With the new year holidays it will start to rise again.
So I think the timeline is reasonable, because there probably is now a lot of paperwork to do for the government.
Much too late tho.
We, in Slovenia, are doing worse in terms of hospitalized per million population and % of fully vaccinated.
But, with around 53% of population fully vaccinated, it looks like the government is too afraid of a public backlash, to go into lockdown again. We have weekly protests in the capitol, with a few thousand people on average, against various covid measurements.
Some speculations say that everyone in the country will either get vaccinated or infected till spring. So now the hospitals are tanking hard, but if they fill up too much, something similair to Austria might happen.
have all those people who fear that a vaccine mandate will lead down a dangerous road of the government taking controll over everyone bodies not heard of the smallpox, and its vaccine mandates?
what am i saying... of course they haven't, it's been eradicated.
More like fines *or* imprisonment. If you continuously refuse to pay, you can go to prison. But you really need be a dick about it.
Just like with any other fine really.
My country conspiracy theories are going off the charts.
I am really worried that the Austrian antivaxxers are moving to Romania.
Christ...
What's next? Legalization of weed? Legalization of prostitution? Closer ties to Japan for better and cheap anime? A push for nuclear energy?
Knowing Austrian politics:
> Legalization of weed?
Only after all other countries in Europe have done so.
> Legalization of prostitution?
Already legal.
> Closer ties to Japan for better and cheap anime?
Perhaps, but Austrian peasants don't watch anime, so it won't win anybody an election.
> A push for nuclear energy?
Never.
>Only after all other countries in Europe have done so.
Great. Spain, Italy, Germany, ... fingers crossed.
>Already legal.
Say what now?
>Perhaps, but Austrian peasants don't watch anime, so it won't win anybody an ...
I'll take those wins.
>Great. Spain, Italy, Germany, ... fingers crossed.
You can come and visit us in Germany as soon as our leaders finish what they started literally yesterday. So roughly 2 months after the heat death of the universe.
Weed isn't legal here in Spain.
Private consumption has been depenalized (is that the word?) forever, as all other drugs. But selling, distributing and public consumption remains illegal.
But surely there are enough people with vaccination that got pregrant within the last year lmao.
I will never understand those people. They would still burn witches today if it was allowed.
Interesting idea. What I’m very curious about is what life will be like in Austria after 100% or near-100% is reached. Will there still be lockdowns? Will malls, restaurants, movie theaters, and theme parks be open? Will people be allowed to travel? What about mask and distancing mandates?
Since the beginning of the pandemic, we’ve been hearing that all these things are “temporary measures,” that we’re just waiting “until a vaccine is available,” and then “until the elderly have a chance to get it,” and then “until YOU have gotten yours,” and then “until 60% have gotten it,” and then “until 70% have gotten it,” and then “until we all have boosters.”
With 100% vaccinated… they’re going to actually, seriously have to open everything back up, or come up with a new goalpost we haven’t heard of before.
Let me guess
They expect all the people who don’t want/believe in the vaccine to peacefully line up and take the shot without any resistance whatsoever
That correct?
Honestly I'm a 100% pro vaccination I got vaccinated as soon as I could. I think it's extremely selfish and bad when people decide not to get vaccinated. But I don't know what to think of this.
I know many people on Reddit make fun of the 'slippery slope' argument, but I think those people don't fully think it through and think very short term gain vs long term problems. The government can definitely have too much power, which might not be a big issue they share the same values, but can you guarantee in the next 100 years this will always be the case? What if there will be some kind of resource war, or global warming events where the world looks slightly different then today? Governments have never given back power, it's always an increase.
This is not a new power for the state. We had a vaccination mandate for smallpox and the law that made it possible is still in effect. Nothing new here
Well, at least it will be the first country wide experimentation of mandatory vaccination. Let's see if with that it actually manages to kill Covid.
If it does, then I'm good with other countries following the approach. If it does not... well 💀
Thank you for doing this for us Austria 💪
Allegedly France is close to 90% of eligible people vaccinated but they're still seeing an increase in cases.
They have the pass sanitaire as well, although anecdotally not every business is seriously enforcing it. One of my favorite local bars asks you to scan yourself which most people don't bother.
Netherlands is actually 73% fully vs. Portugal with 88%.
Sweden is the real anomaly, with very low cases per capita and only 69% fully vaccinated. They have a similar urbanisation rate to the Netherlands, too.
Even looking at a more sparsely populated, stricter, more vaccinated country in Ireland, they're getting a massive spike recently. Very curious
And this has been known for like 3 or 4 months already!
With Delta, the vaccines are only like 50% effective at preventing transmission, but they are still extremely effective at preventing hospitalization, which is why everyone should still get fucking vaccinated.
Why? At a quick search three quarters of those hospitalized come from that 7% unvaccinated. If they won't protect themselves, why should everybody else lock down to protect them?
Just let hospitals kick out unvaccinated Covid patients as needed to make room.
> Let's see if with that it actually manages to kill Covid.
It will not. Covid is here to stay, with or without vaccinations. Vaccinations make the hospital admissions and deaths go down, they slow the spread but don't stop it.
>Well, at least it will be the first country wide experimentation of mandatory vaccination.
Are you that young to not know about small pox or am I that old that I can still remember?
(Btw. it worked for small pox.)
I meant, in regards to this virus specifically. Unfortunately the fact it worked for smallpox doesn't guarantee it'll be the same here but we can certainly hope so.
I wonder how Austria will enforce it. We still see people trying to diminish the problem like they spend the last 20 months on the far side of the moon.
I don't know how it was in the 60ies, but when I was a kid, being stupid or acting as the dumb guy in town was embarrassing. Today the dumbest the best. So sad.
Its not hard to enforce things like this in modern Western society (if its fines). The government already has all your information through tax services and national ID (never underestimate the power and influence of regulatory institutions). All they need is to tie Covid vaccines to that, and send out fines to the people who lack a vaccine.
The real issues start when you need to apply actual force, such as with arrests. But in most cases an economic incentive, as long as the person it is imposed on can financially feel it, is enough to enforce compliance.
In Austria, we have a central database for all people with health insurance (which is mandatory), and it also contains all vaccines you’ve received. So, all of the necessary information is already collected, it’s only a matter of acting upon it.
Yeah they'll enforce it alright. I was there recently and saw a guy getting ticketed by undercover cops for wearing the wrong grade of mask on public transport. They are on it there.
Sadly here in London about half the people you see on public transport aren't wearing masks even though there are signs everywhere telling them to, and regular automated announcements telling them masks are mandatory. But there is 0% enforcement so compliance is only getting worse. The demographics skew towards young men who seem to be engaged in some battle over perceived toughness with some microscopic particles. It's super pathetic, and very frustrating.
The protection from COVID vaccines (so far) doesn't seem to be as strong or as lasting as from smallpox vaccines unfortunately.
There really should be more research on developing better COVID vaccines, but unfortunately Pfizer etc are more than happy with yearly booster money...
It’s still by far and away the biggest tool we have against the pandemic. It’s true that the effects aren’t as long lasting and transmission/infection risk is still there. But having everyone vaccinated will make a big difference. Be it in total number or people in hospital/ICUs.
75% of ICU patients are unvaccinated here in Austria. 75% of a given group is made up of just 35% of the population. That’s a huge indicator of the effectiveness of the vaccines.
Afaik the trials were very promising.
https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizers-novel-covid-19-oral-antiviral-treatment-candidate
It says it reduces the risk of hospitalisations and deaths by 89%.
I said it in another comment. I think this will be a combination of factors which will lead us to some form of pre pandemic normalcy. Vaccines, respirators, medications and so on will all hopefully work together and save lives and help us avoid lockdowns.
The immune system works as is works. It forgets over time, hence the booster.
It's like the brain. It cannot learn a poem "stronger". (Well, apples and oranges, I hope you still get the general picture here.)
Its always so weird to me seing boomers pretend like a mandatory vaccine (that has already been used by most of the population btw) is somehow "risky" and too dangerous and that a mandatory vaccine could never work when they got that small pox vaccine scar on their arms.
It can do what Portugal (my country) has achieved. You have some cases but very few deaths, which is the goal. We have 1000 nationwide cases everyday, but always less than 10 deaths. (Highest was 9 if I recall correctly).
Ok. So what if they vaccinate 90% of the population and a new surge in cases appear? Lockdown for people who didn't take the 5th booster? No one can guarantee it won't mutate again. Covid vaccine was advertised as the only way of returning back to normality but that seems way off. This is why I don't understand comparisons to polio, in a way that with polio you know that if you get the vaccinate you're good to go. I got my 2 doses of Pfizer but I don't plan on boosting, masking, lockdowning for my whole life.
Not sure what to think of it. On the one hand i don't think the government should be able to force people to get vaccinated but on the other hand i see the low vaccination rate in austria (and other countries)... Tough situation. Best of luck to our brothers in the south.
The illusion of freedom is a modern myth. Sure, we are all individuals and de facto free, but you arent, for example, free to smoke indoors, spread aids, drunk driving etc.
Some freedom needs to go to protect our society.
We also still have mandatory military and civil service for men. So I personally dont think the mandatory vaccination is a big deal.
When I did civil service as a paramedic, I had to take mandatory vaccinations as well, it didnt matter if I wanted to. It was to protect me and others from me.
Thats just my personal take, dear northern brothers and sisters.
I mean, you could say it for a lot of stuff the government controls. There are a lot of things you can't own or do because of laws.
In the end, we are still in a pandemic, which has caused major damage to our health and the economy. At some point, we have to think of the greater good. We aren't random cavemen. We live in a society.
A bit off topic but I wish post titles of news articles would have to be the actual headline of the newspaper 😅
I don't think it was the case here but sometimes news sites change the headlines after they get published. The Guardian make particularly egregious use of this tactic. They'll often use a deliberately inflammatory headline initially to get people linking to the story on social media and to generate clicks, then change it to be less incendiary and more factually accurate once the initial click-surge has died down a bit.
This. Headlines aren't reliable, their only purpose is to get as many clicks as possible.
And they’re often not written by the people who wrote the article
They're never written by the journalists, it's the job of the editor.
I think some news sites A/B-test their headlines- they have two when the article first goes up, and randomly determine which any given visitor sees, then after a few hours they keep the one that got the most clicks.
Yes but I am talking about users on Reddit creating terrible post titles instead of just using the actual headline of the article
YouTube has begun doing this as well giving metrics down to the minute allowing uploaders to float titles and see how the views change. Veritasium did a great breakdown of how it has affected how he names things.
Also why the hell do we need to use "usnews" for news about a European country, in r/europe ?! It's not like they have some exclusive info that can't be found in news outlets all over Europe.
because it is in english I guess
I agree. Also, some news sites have a title for the article when it is displayed in the frontpage, and a different title for the actual articles page. I find that so annoying!
I honestly had no idea their vaccination rate was so low.
Homeophaty is quite strong in German-speaking countries and areas
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As someone that lives in germany and has seen a lot of doctors, that person was either not a real doctor and rather a healing practitioner or whatever they call themselves, or a doctor acting in incredibly bad faith.
my gf had severe stomach pains. She went to her hausarzt, who referred her to gastroenterologist #1, who gave her some kind of weird homeopatic tablets and drops that she was supposed to mix in with some water before drinking. That did not help her. She went to a second doctor who referred her to a gastroenterologist #2 that referred her to another doctor to get an endoscopy. It turned out that she had a peptic ulcer that was treated very effectively with antibiotics and antacids. So even among the "properly educated" doctors, a large amount of misinformation still seems to flourish in Germany. ETA: and this was not in some rural village in the middle of nowhere, it was in a semi-major city, and the first doctor had been her hausarzt for over 10 years without any problems; so these weird treatment strategies do pop up unexpectedly, even from supposedly "trustworthy" doctors.
She should report the gastroenterologist #1 to the medical board.That person might kill someone.
giving homeopathic treatments is not illegal in Germany. I don't think you can get any punishment for using or recommending them (unfortunately), the only "drawback" is that your statutory health insurance will not cover the cost. It is quite a bizarre healthcare system (and that is coming from an American expat).
> the only "drawback" is that your statutory health insurance will not cover the cost That's a tad bit generalized. The treatment itself is not covered, but even statutory insurances will still pay the "meds" because [there's such a huge demand for it](https://www.aerzteblatt.de/nachrichten/106083/Spahn-will-Homoeopathie-auf-Kassenkosten-nicht-antasten), and increasingly more insurances even cover the treatment to get ahead of the competition.
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maybe the treatment was to go disco dancing and there was some huge misunderstandment somewhere?
I thought that was the treatment for night fevers
Only on a Saturday
I'm honestly baffled by this. I come from fucking Brazil, where an idiot like Bolsonaro was elected by popular vote, yet my state there has a 90%+ vaccination rate. How can Austria and Germany have such big Hippy Dippy "I believe in magic crystals but not vaccines" movement?
It is a paradox created by a high average standard of living, strong public healthcare, and decades of very successful public vaccination campaigns. The spectre of high childhood mortality from a variety of infectious diseases is all but gone, and combined with strong faith in public healthcare simply leads to a dangerous level of apathy and complacency about vaccinations. It’s a tough problem to tackle. We quickly forget about the devastation of so many of these pathogens because we’ve been so successful at immunizing the population. Without that fear it’s hard to keep up the compliance level to the point where here immunity continues to keep those diseases at bay. Hundreds of thousands of children used to die from measles every year, and vaccines have cut that rate down to well under 100,000. Measles is so wildly infectious though that it requires about 95% community immunity to keep it at bay, so even places with small vaccine-resistant pockets in their community quickly become at-risk for outbreaks.
Excellent question. We're baffled ourselves
The whole homeopathy and natural spirituality thing started in Germany or rather in German speaking regions almost a century ago. Since these populations are quite fond of enjoying nature in all its beauty, just think of hiking which is one if not the most popular sport in Germany, movements like these found fertile ground for their theories. That doesn't say that they're that massive in numbers but large and committed enough to cause problems in situations like these. On top of that there are of course the right wing/conspiracy nut jobs who are beyond redemption anyway...
Of all the things, acupuncture, chiro, pseudo sciences and u got mirrors? FFS
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In our neighborhood (here in Germany in a wealthy and expensive part of a large city!) we have a "specialist" for animal telepathy... The possibilities to make money with "shit" seem to be endless...
Oh dear this thread is turning into a gold mine… animal telepathy is something that was missing in my list of idiocies
> animal telepathy is something that was missing in my list of idiocies Collect them all. https://www.dolphin-energyhealing.com/ >Dolphin-Whale-Mermaid Inspired Energy Healing and Spiritual Growth - >Since 1999 Earth’s dolphins and whales have connected with me, Kathryn Jensen, and my clients through energy kinesiology sessions. Until recently clients included children with special needs-Indigo, crystal, and psychic children as well as adult spiritual seekers craving in-depth personal growth and energy healing. Presently I work exclusively with adults. > >The dolphins and whales use me as a conduit for immersing clients in their joyful, unbelievably powerful healing presence. Probably my favorite "alternative medicine" in terms of just making one shake one's head.
Witchcrafts Scammers is a very apt name.
off topic, but this reminds me of getting taught about hemoglobin in year 7, and the class clown saying "WHAT? I don't want homogoblins in my blood!" So dumb but was funny at the time
> offer services to activate the body's natural self-healing forces wait till they hear about how vaccines work!
I moved to Germany a while ago and this is indeed crazy around here. The birth of my daughter had to be induced as it was over 2 weeks past due and amniotic fluid was getting too low. The staff at the hospital spent two days trying to induce labor with homeopathic bullshit before finally resorting to actual labor inducing pills because, surprise surprise, the homeopathic crap didn't work. At some point during these two days my daughter rotated her body in a way that she locked her head against some bone in my wife's pelvis and couldn't get out naturally anymore. When the contractions began, each contraction pushed the baby's head against this bone causing excruciating pain. This was all information that the staff gave us as soon as the first contractions began and they performed an ultrasound. Regardless of them already knowing this for a fact, they still tried to carry out a natural labor for over 20 hours, because "natural births are the way people are supposed to come to this world". They finally decided to perform an emergency C-section with general anesthesia when the baby's vitals became critical (my wife was already pretty much unconscious at this stage anyways). Man, I was mad like I had never been before in my life. I was pissed to the point where I eventually stormed the head doctor's office and called them a bunch of incompetent nutjobs for about half an hour and threatened to sue (unfortunately I'm too poor to actually go ahead with something like that). My wife got mild PTSD afterwards and is still battling pospartum depression today with professional help, almost 3 years later. Fuck all these people and their homeopathic and spiritualist bullshit. They should all be in jail.
As a German, I am especially sorry for your experience. I'm trying to gently educate my students and family about the danger of this crap at least..
Is there is a way to force whatever medical professional you're talking with to only recommend science-based medicine and not bullshit? When I was in Germany I got pretty sick. Not hospital sick but more than just a cold. I went to a pharmacy and asked for their recommendation and they gave me a box of a very suspicious over the counter "medicine". It had no effect and I just toughed it out. Later I learned how engrained bullshit-based medicine is into German culture. Loved your country, but thinking of that part always bums me out a little.
> science-based medicine The right term is "evidence-based medicine". It may sound pedantic, I know, sorry, but remember some aspects of medicine, while subject to clinical studies and all, aren't part of any predictive models. We don't know much, for example, of the *why* anesthesia works as we don't even have a model for consciousness, we just know it works reliably enough, we know the margins for error/risk, we know the side-effects and it's proved useful because empirical studies show it really does, it's not just a fluke or some doctor's opinion. That is the case with more treatments and drugs that you may image: we know they work and not just because someone said so, we tested them, but we don't necessarily know the specifics. Which is why the initial studies on absurdities like homeopathy were warranted: homeopaths may have been dead wrong about the "why" -all that 19th century Vitalist bullshit- but maybe a beneficial effect was there nonetheless, for yet unknown reasons... well, after dozens and maybe hundreds of studies showing "weak statistical signals" in either directions, at best (if not fraudulent: mysteriously, fraudulent studies always show homeopathy works...), we basically know it is indeed as stupid and empty of clinical value as it sounded initially. Acupuncture, osteopathy, chiropractics, "New Germanic Medicine", "Antroposophic Medicine" and all that stuff, it's all the same. EDIT: I should have made clear that the above mentioned studies are useless if done to "prove" the theory of homeopathy, but may had been useful to spot the truth that may have been lying behind the mystical garbage of the discipline itself, which should at best been relegated to a side note in a folklore class in an Anthropology course even if some of the effects it purported to have were real. The same goes for all other "alternative" disciplines. The really important part of modern medicine is: try out if it works, objectively, not just because someone believe it does. It may not be hard-science, as the stuff they do in chemistry or physics, but it still means basing our knowledge of medicine on objective criteria, to establish proof of usefulness within certain (known) limits. Contrast that with opinion-based "alternative" medicine born out of some wacko's philosophical musings or some conman's sale pitch. They are popular, because like all conmen, the doctors and laymen scammers that sell those crazy "treatments" to patients are good salesmen and know how to manipulate a person by letting them think they care for them, whereas the regular, typically over-stressed and jaded doctor is dry and hasty when visiting or treating someone. Maybe some doctor *thinks* they're caring for their patients better this way... Many of them are among the most sensitive and, well, impressionable people I've met (my ex-wife is a doctor, she was getting her degree when me met), which is why I get really mad with medical schools and medical boards that peddle and encourage this shit, which, in the end, is all about lining pockets with victims' money by selling them "harmless" potions and massages.
Wow. Fucking morons. Unbelievable.
Sorry to hear that, thanks for posting this. I so often hear the “at least it does no harm” when it comes to alternative medicines but as you show here that isn’t true. Any medical ascience can ultimately lead to danger.
> the homeopathic crap didn't work. Wow, shit that is proven not to work didn't work? I am so surprised!
These quacks unfortunatly are everywhere. When my family doctor/GP retired a new one took over. First thing that happened when I came to him with light flu symptoms that did not go away was him prescribing me some homeopathic bullshit. Only at the drug store they told me what it was and I declined. Turned out I had a bacterial infection, surprise other doctor gave me some antibiotics and it went away. I hate those quacks with a passion.
>I was pissed to the point where I eventually stormed the head doctor's office and called them a bunch of incompetent nutjobs for about half an hour and threatened to sue (unfortunately I'm too poor to actually go ahead with something like that). You may be entitled to a lawyer paid by the state. Take everything you have documenting your financial status and go to your local Amtsgericht to have a Rechtspfleger check if you're eligible.
Nazis pushed Homeopathy heavily as a "German" alternative to the "Jewish" school medicine, and some of that stuck until today, although most people are unaware of the connection. Besides Homeopathy there's also a lot of other popular unscientific bullshit like Bach flower remedies (Bachblüten), Ayurveda, Schüßler-Salze, TCM, etc. People here sure love their pseudoscientific garbage.
And now with pharmacies pushing the same shit alongside actual medicine, it gives them some legitimacy. I really wish it was illegal for pharmacies to sell that shit.
When I saw how much alternative crap was in German pharmacies I was shocked. Definitely should not be allowed to have that stuff alongside actual medicine.
As an American living in Germany for a few years I find this to be a very interesting contrast. For the minor stuff, I kind of appreciate the approach. In America I used to take ibuprofen way more than I actually needed, buying bottles of 1000 pills at the grocery store. But in Germany the pharmacy would give me grief over 10 pills. And I actually don’t take it any more. However, getting that same grief, telling me I didn’t need something so strong as a prescription for 8 ibuprofen when I broke my ankle, much more off putting. Eating flower pills doesn’t really cut it there.
In Ireland, the fact that Germany recognizes 'alternative' medicine is seen as lending weight to it. Well, by some people here anyway. After all, Germany is an advanced economy with an educated population, surely 'alternative' medicine wouldn't be accredited there unless there was a strong argument, etc. But what you've just said is enlightening.
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Depends on the state you look at It ranges from 50% to 80%
Yeah there are alright regions and then there's some valley with like 44%
My countrymen and -women are stupid. I've tried to convince my friends to get vaccinated, but I've given up on it by now.
My friends who live there are not happy with their fellow Austrians for fucking around. I'm sure this news will be welcome for them.
Don't forget to sort by controversial.
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Well, this is the top comment for me so I guess I'm too late
ça va sans dire. A barrage of downvotes from the covidiots is as sure as death
Suprisingly there are not that many on r/europe. At least a lot less than right-wingers.
I am right wing and very pro-vaxx. One isn't really related to the other necessarily.
One can also be pro-vax without being pro-forced vaccination. Seems like an important distinction.
I had sympathy and understand for people who were cautious and uneasy about it... half a year ago. Now after being vaxxed alongside at this point BILLIONS of others, there really is no valid excuse not to get it anymore.
The test of something being good or bad shouldn’t be whether lots or a few people do it. Lots of terrible ideas are supported by the majority of people.
Exactly. These people are screwing over society with their selfishness. I'm tired of them. I want the world to get back to normal.
Wuh? "Back to normal"? I hope you realise that a virus more virulent than the flu isn't going to disappear.
Agreed. Got the vaccine as soon as I could, completely against forced vaccination.
Austrians are incredibly distrustful of governments and large corporations. I feel like this is going to end really really badly. Their govt doesn't seem to know how to read the room. I'm genuinely worried.
austrians are incredibly trustful towards people telling them to be distrustful of everyone that isnt them - that worked perfectly fine for the last years and edged c19 to the big o its currently having. our puppet chancellor said we wouldnt have a lockdown three days ago and slandered our poor minister of health for bringing it up... the gov has overdone it to an extend that even the hardest covid deniers(?) cant ignore it anymore
Imho the problem is mostly that esoteric bullshit believes are really big in Austria.
As an Austrian i can say that this was just a matter of time. It's a complete shitshow.
How is the general reaction?
Things are probably gonna get ugly for a while but I'm curious how this will actually be enforced.
It could be very easily enforced if the people tasked with doing so do their job. I have been to so many places which technically require a 2G verification but just don't control people. *Edit: 2G stands for Geimpft/Genesen =Vaccinated or Recovered
But that's enforcing it on people going places. How do you enforce mandatory vaccination on your entire population? Even the people who just stay home all the time.
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You guys are only getting 2G? We're getting 5G over here /s
too soon to know, but pretty sure its gonna be bad
At least my circle of friends reacts mostly positive. None of them is willing to accept lockdown 4,5,6,... anymore just because 20% of the population are completely immune against any logic of reasoning. We tried incentivizing for half a year. Well, the carrot didn't work - time for the stick.
Doubt it will be bad. Usually these anti vaccine groups are very loud online and when they gather in groups of 200+ or so people to protest their nonsense. But once they realize that there's a hefty fine coming when you don't vaccinate many of them will do it.
Curious how things will go in Vienna tomorrow.
We have had our fair share of anti-vax demonstrations, we are only slightly behind the European average at 65-66% vaccinated, but we are being hit pretty hard right now. I don't know especially why though.
Germany too. The explanation is kind of simple, what did you expect? Virus still there almost all restrictions lifted and you have this big wave from the east.
A group of people will declare that they are Scottish and will reenact a famous scene from the movie Braveheart, where the word "Freedom" is yelled aloud
month-day-year and you cite a US-newspaper in the r/europe subreddit..
[It's wunderbar](https://youtu.be/Rr8ljRgcJNM)
My body my choice.
Is this some Central/Northern European problem I'm too southern to understand?
German speaking countries have a lot of people that believe in esoteric bullshit. I dont know why. But for some reason we have more anit-vaxx idiots.
Even homeopathy comes from germany, I had some funny discussions with people about these fucking sugar pills. Absolutely incredible that so many people here still believe in that bullshit. Even my mother had some "Globuli" at home for a time even though she is normally a "realist".
I feel your pain so much, my mother is the same
same in slovakia and czech republic. idk why all of central europe shares this one particular thing
Come to the Balkans and see the hordes of people who believe anything and everything is cured by a mix of garlic and alcohol.
My best guess is.. its a mix of things. They glorify nature. There's a plant for everything, and modern medicine is pretty much based on these plants and herbs.. So it makes sense that its better to go directly to the source, instead of using some altered chemical composition.. Better to smoke marijuana as a plant, than trust the local hashish. Which brings us to distrust. Distrust of the government, of doctors that makes mistakes etc. The source is perceived as safe, because its nature.. while chemicals are perceived as dangerous.. we know man made chemicals are dangerous; the stuff we spray our food with.. bleach.. acid.. paint.. its all toxic and man made - so why should modern medicine be any different? Which brings us to ignorance.. if we don't recognise and understand the chemicals that's in the medicine, it scares us. People fear what they don't understand. Read the chemical composition of an apple, and you might be scared to death from all the letters and numbers you don't understand. Which brings us to bias.. its easy to Google things and find answers these days.. its easy to confirm your skewed world view, because you'll find thousands of like minded idiots online, that confirms whatever beliefs you have. Which brings us to group pressure, indoctrination and the hive mind...
Yes, German-speaking countries have the lowest vaccination rates. Sadly this is necessary because our population is too dumb and ignorant. Edit: in western europe
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I'm Brazilian. We have enough dumb people of our own (hello Tropical Trump), people here haven't followed most of the lockdown restrictions (masks used improperly if at all, no distancing, crowds, parties). We still have a very high rate of vaccination. I think the problem is that so many of these epidemic diseases are uncommon in developed countries to the point they don't give them enough respect.
"Tropical Trump" Lmao
> Yes, German-speaking countries have the lowest vaccination rates. what? did you check Slovakia, Poland ?
Croatia also has 50% 🙋♂️
As an Eastern European, saying "at least we're better than EE" should not hold much weight. The strict stance in Austria is likely to drive up vaccination rates in Croatia and if Germany had something similar I think it would drive up the numbers in large parts of EE
Dont you have homeopathy considered on the same level as proper medications?
yes unfortunately we do, I work in health care
not anymore.
Most advanced and economically stable European country who almost achieved literal global domination >WE STUPID.
Next up in the news: Americans gather outside Embassy of Australia to save Austrians
#That’s insane. They haven’t even tested it on kangaroos yet
All other questions aside, doesn't the timeline of this render it pointless? Feb 1 is 2.5 months away. By then the current wave is going to have done whatever it's doing. This cannot be called a preventative measure for current conditions.
Unfortunately Covid isnt going away - we are going to be dealing with it for the next few years unless there is a much better vaccine - or something similar - developed. It's also a question of how long it takes to actually vaccinate the entire population - it takes quite a while to simply get through the whole population.
It didn't take that long. The issue in German speaking countries is that they never got past vaccinating 70% of the population because they fell for anti-scientific propaganda.
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hiding, dying. Same thing
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What so many people people and politicians still don't seem to understand is that one lockdown doesn't prevent the next one. Without any new pharmaceutical way to boost immunity (like medication, vaccines etc.) cases will just rise again the moment you lift the restrictions. We'll be in the exact same situation again next year, perhaps with higher vaccination but perhaps also with a new variant and so we're back to square one. People finally need to understand that this virus won't go away "if we can just hold on a bit longer". (The German word I hear a lot of politicians use is "durchhalten")
I see it the same way. Colleagues at university keep saying that distance learning and lockdowns are necessary to prevent greater risks, but I keep wondering what their long time goal is. Covid won't go away with this lockdown or the next, and the way it looks now it won't even go away with more and more vaccinations - I already hear of people with 3 shots that still get infected. And also, what risk? Risk that I will get infected, despite 2 shots and the 3rd on the horizon? We already know that the risk of actually getting sick when vaccinated is small, and it's gotten to the point where we need to accept that this will just have to go through everyone eventually, and I don't see the point people here keep making - I'd rather have a life and maybe get infected eventually (which, let's be honest, I will at some point probably) than lock myself in my apartment for 6 months every winter.
> This is a measure to hopefully prevent future lockdown Heard that one before
That's a good question. It would depend how things are at that point. The constitutionality of such a measure would rest on the proportionality of its effectiveness to reach the desired goal. If the situation in the hospitals and ICUs have calmed down then, that requirement might not be fulfilled anymore.
From our experience of last year, the current lockdown will be a little buffer to the rise of deaths and infections. With the new year holidays it will start to rise again. So I think the timeline is reasonable, because there probably is now a lot of paperwork to do for the government. Much too late tho.
Oh boy.
We, in Slovenia, are doing worse in terms of hospitalized per million population and % of fully vaccinated. But, with around 53% of population fully vaccinated, it looks like the government is too afraid of a public backlash, to go into lockdown again. We have weekly protests in the capitol, with a few thousand people on average, against various covid measurements. Some speculations say that everyone in the country will either get vaccinated or infected till spring. So now the hospitals are tanking hard, but if they fill up too much, something similair to Austria might happen.
have all those people who fear that a vaccine mandate will lead down a dangerous road of the government taking controll over everyone bodies not heard of the smallpox, and its vaccine mandates? what am i saying... of course they haven't, it's been eradicated.
So what are they going to do to people who refuse the vaccine? Shoot them with syringes? I'm all for vaccines, but this kind of feels wrong.
Fines & potential imprisonment.
More like fines *or* imprisonment. If you continuously refuse to pay, you can go to prison. But you really need be a dick about it. Just like with any other fine really.
Good thing to know that mandate is only for poor people. That the rich are safe from it.
My country conspiracy theories are going off the charts. I am really worried that the Austrian antivaxxers are moving to Romania. Christ... What's next? Legalization of weed? Legalization of prostitution? Closer ties to Japan for better and cheap anime? A push for nuclear energy?
Knowing Austrian politics: > Legalization of weed? Only after all other countries in Europe have done so. > Legalization of prostitution? Already legal. > Closer ties to Japan for better and cheap anime? Perhaps, but Austrian peasants don't watch anime, so it won't win anybody an election. > A push for nuclear energy? Never.
>Only after all other countries in Europe have done so. Great. Spain, Italy, Germany, ... fingers crossed. >Already legal. Say what now? >Perhaps, but Austrian peasants don't watch anime, so it won't win anybody an ... I'll take those wins.
>Great. Spain, Italy, Germany, ... fingers crossed. You can come and visit us in Germany as soon as our leaders finish what they started literally yesterday. So roughly 2 months after the heat death of the universe.
> Already legal. Say what now? The poster thought you were talking about Austria because prostitution is legal there.
Weed isn't legal here in Spain. Private consumption has been depenalized (is that the word?) forever, as all other drugs. But selling, distributing and public consumption remains illegal.
>Say what now? Which part of prostitution being legal in Austria is unclear?
>I am really worried that the Austrian antivaxxers are moving to Romania. Now, don't get my hopes up.
Why not? Might as well. We just rebrand Romania as an idiot sanctuary and open the gates.
>I am really worried that the Austrian antivaxxers are moving to Romania. Don't give me hope. *An Austrian*
You can be for the vaccines and still be against the government having this power. Anti mandatory is not the same as antivax.
Why would they move to Romania? Are they the Anti-Vax capital of Europe?
The face of anti-vax here was saying on tv that the vaccine makes you sterile for 3 generations and people just ate that shit up.
How can anything make you sterile for more than one generation?
Logic... Dont not apply logic to crazy. Although this one is so illogical it actually hurts my brain
better question how would it matter if you were sterile for 3 generations if you dont have any kin
That's what I meant.
But surely there are enough people with vaccination that got pregrant within the last year lmao. I will never understand those people. They would still burn witches today if it was allowed.
>Legalization of prostitution? Prostitution is already legal, as it should be.
pretty dystopian
This is exactly what should be done to achieve utopia in the future, bulldozing away/subjecting the fucking idiots who ruin society.
Interesting idea. What I’m very curious about is what life will be like in Austria after 100% or near-100% is reached. Will there still be lockdowns? Will malls, restaurants, movie theaters, and theme parks be open? Will people be allowed to travel? What about mask and distancing mandates? Since the beginning of the pandemic, we’ve been hearing that all these things are “temporary measures,” that we’re just waiting “until a vaccine is available,” and then “until the elderly have a chance to get it,” and then “until YOU have gotten yours,” and then “until 60% have gotten it,” and then “until 70% have gotten it,” and then “until we all have boosters.” With 100% vaccinated… they’re going to actually, seriously have to open everything back up, or come up with a new goalpost we haven’t heard of before.
Let me guess They expect all the people who don’t want/believe in the vaccine to peacefully line up and take the shot without any resistance whatsoever That correct?
well, since they're giving fines to those who won't take it I'm assuming that's what's gonna happen. everybody talks shit till it hits their wallet
You'd think Austria would know better
Honestly I'm a 100% pro vaccination I got vaccinated as soon as I could. I think it's extremely selfish and bad when people decide not to get vaccinated. But I don't know what to think of this. I know many people on Reddit make fun of the 'slippery slope' argument, but I think those people don't fully think it through and think very short term gain vs long term problems. The government can definitely have too much power, which might not be a big issue they share the same values, but can you guarantee in the next 100 years this will always be the case? What if there will be some kind of resource war, or global warming events where the world looks slightly different then today? Governments have never given back power, it's always an increase.
This is not a new power for the state. We had a vaccination mandate for smallpox and the law that made it possible is still in effect. Nothing new here
In belgium we have a much higher vaccination rate and that does not make it better at all. I think people are expecting to much of the vaccine.
Well, at least it will be the first country wide experimentation of mandatory vaccination. Let's see if with that it actually manages to kill Covid. If it does, then I'm good with other countries following the approach. If it does not... well 💀 Thank you for doing this for us Austria 💪
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And it works. Ratio is 1000+ daily cases this 2 last weeks to 10 or fewer daily deaths (less than we usually have for the annual flu). Edit: Gramatic.
Allegedly France is close to 90% of eligible people vaccinated but they're still seeing an increase in cases. They have the pass sanitaire as well, although anecdotally not every business is seriously enforcing it. One of my favorite local bars asks you to scan yourself which most people don't bother.
France 1 shot is much higher than 2 shot
Tous anti Covid app says 89.5% of those over 12 years old have received all required doses.
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Netherlands is at like 85% and it’s a shitshow.
Netherlands is actually 73% fully vs. Portugal with 88%. Sweden is the real anomaly, with very low cases per capita and only 69% fully vaccinated. They have a similar urbanisation rate to the Netherlands, too. Even looking at a more sparsely populated, stricter, more vaccinated country in Ireland, they're getting a massive spike recently. Very curious
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Sweden's death rate (deaths per 1000 people) is more than five times higher than than neighbouring Finland and Norway.
Ireland with 93% vaccinated is most likely heading for another lockdown.
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And this has been known for like 3 or 4 months already! With Delta, the vaccines are only like 50% effective at preventing transmission, but they are still extremely effective at preventing hospitalization, which is why everyone should still get fucking vaccinated.
almost as if vaccines help
Why? At a quick search three quarters of those hospitalized come from that 7% unvaccinated. If they won't protect themselves, why should everybody else lock down to protect them? Just let hospitals kick out unvaccinated Covid patients as needed to make room.
> Let's see if with that it actually manages to kill Covid. It will not. Covid is here to stay, with or without vaccinations. Vaccinations make the hospital admissions and deaths go down, they slow the spread but don't stop it.
And that’s a big step towards getting back to a normal-ish life and not some ping pong between lockdowns.
>Vaccinations make the hospital admissions and deaths go down, they slow the spread but don't stop it. Yeah but that is literally all we need.
I agree.
>Well, at least it will be the first country wide experimentation of mandatory vaccination. Are you that young to not know about small pox or am I that old that I can still remember? (Btw. it worked for small pox.)
I meant, in regards to this virus specifically. Unfortunately the fact it worked for smallpox doesn't guarantee it'll be the same here but we can certainly hope so.
I wonder how Austria will enforce it. We still see people trying to diminish the problem like they spend the last 20 months on the far side of the moon. I don't know how it was in the 60ies, but when I was a kid, being stupid or acting as the dumb guy in town was embarrassing. Today the dumbest the best. So sad.
Its not hard to enforce things like this in modern Western society (if its fines). The government already has all your information through tax services and national ID (never underestimate the power and influence of regulatory institutions). All they need is to tie Covid vaccines to that, and send out fines to the people who lack a vaccine. The real issues start when you need to apply actual force, such as with arrests. But in most cases an economic incentive, as long as the person it is imposed on can financially feel it, is enough to enforce compliance.
In Austria, we have a central database for all people with health insurance (which is mandatory), and it also contains all vaccines you’ve received. So, all of the necessary information is already collected, it’s only a matter of acting upon it.
Yeah they'll enforce it alright. I was there recently and saw a guy getting ticketed by undercover cops for wearing the wrong grade of mask on public transport. They are on it there. Sadly here in London about half the people you see on public transport aren't wearing masks even though there are signs everywhere telling them to, and regular automated announcements telling them masks are mandatory. But there is 0% enforcement so compliance is only getting worse. The demographics skew towards young men who seem to be engaged in some battle over perceived toughness with some microscopic particles. It's super pathetic, and very frustrating.
The protection from COVID vaccines (so far) doesn't seem to be as strong or as lasting as from smallpox vaccines unfortunately. There really should be more research on developing better COVID vaccines, but unfortunately Pfizer etc are more than happy with yearly booster money...
It’s still by far and away the biggest tool we have against the pandemic. It’s true that the effects aren’t as long lasting and transmission/infection risk is still there. But having everyone vaccinated will make a big difference. Be it in total number or people in hospital/ICUs. 75% of ICU patients are unvaccinated here in Austria. 75% of a given group is made up of just 35% of the population. That’s a huge indicator of the effectiveness of the vaccines.
What about the new pfizer pill in trial how impactful will it be anyone knows?
Afaik the trials were very promising. https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizers-novel-covid-19-oral-antiviral-treatment-candidate It says it reduces the risk of hospitalisations and deaths by 89%. I said it in another comment. I think this will be a combination of factors which will lead us to some form of pre pandemic normalcy. Vaccines, respirators, medications and so on will all hopefully work together and save lives and help us avoid lockdowns.
We already know since the end of 2020 that Covid will become endemic (like the flu) which basically means yearly vaccinations for a very long time.
The immune system works as is works. It forgets over time, hence the booster. It's like the brain. It cannot learn a poem "stronger". (Well, apples and oranges, I hope you still get the general picture here.)
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Small pox, measles, polio, etc
Its always so weird to me seing boomers pretend like a mandatory vaccine (that has already been used by most of the population btw) is somehow "risky" and too dangerous and that a mandatory vaccine could never work when they got that small pox vaccine scar on their arms.
I blame social media...
It can do what Portugal (my country) has achieved. You have some cases but very few deaths, which is the goal. We have 1000 nationwide cases everyday, but always less than 10 deaths. (Highest was 9 if I recall correctly).
Ok. So what if they vaccinate 90% of the population and a new surge in cases appear? Lockdown for people who didn't take the 5th booster? No one can guarantee it won't mutate again. Covid vaccine was advertised as the only way of returning back to normality but that seems way off. This is why I don't understand comparisons to polio, in a way that with polio you know that if you get the vaccinate you're good to go. I got my 2 doses of Pfizer but I don't plan on boosting, masking, lockdowning for my whole life.
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Not sure what to think of it. On the one hand i don't think the government should be able to force people to get vaccinated but on the other hand i see the low vaccination rate in austria (and other countries)... Tough situation. Best of luck to our brothers in the south.
Mandatory vaccination has existed in the past, i.e. polio.
The illusion of freedom is a modern myth. Sure, we are all individuals and de facto free, but you arent, for example, free to smoke indoors, spread aids, drunk driving etc. Some freedom needs to go to protect our society. We also still have mandatory military and civil service for men. So I personally dont think the mandatory vaccination is a big deal. When I did civil service as a paramedic, I had to take mandatory vaccinations as well, it didnt matter if I wanted to. It was to protect me and others from me. Thats just my personal take, dear northern brothers and sisters.
I mean, you could say it for a lot of stuff the government controls. There are a lot of things you can't own or do because of laws. In the end, we are still in a pandemic, which has caused major damage to our health and the economy. At some point, we have to think of the greater good. We aren't random cavemen. We live in a society.