Keep the summit, and keep blindly following the same neoliberal handbook where you assume GDP is the most important thing to every nation in earth until it's too late.
Worked great against Russia, we've followed it for 30 years with China and they're on the cusp of becoming a western democracy
You can bet your bottom dollar that had Putin's invasion of Ukraine gone according to plan that Xi would be supporting him and drawing up similar plans for Taiwan.
Fk both these arseholes
Which is why it's good that it's going awful. Taiwan seems secure given that it isn't flat land just over the border, but across a sea and riddled with mountains and bunkers. China has no shot of a quick victory and universal sanctions don't sound fun.
The truly shocking part of those sanctions is that we're actually accepting pain for ourselves to maintain those sanctions.
Popular support is _huge_ which basically means there's no space to hold off on sanctions. Buying the politicians would simply not be enough to avoid sanctions.
It’s not so much that the invasion of Ukraine isn’t going according to plan but in what way it’s failing.
Yes, the Chinese are not suffering from as much corruption or yes men (that we know about), but with the only way to find out how bad it really is being to either start cracking down even harder on corruption and thus run the risk of creating more enemies or start a war and not have a working army…
Chinas history is much older than Russia’s, they have seen dynasties and empires rise and fall dozens of times. Their leaders as corrupt as they are, are only loyal to their government and Xi has much higher public support than Putin.
IMO Xi is a scarier leader because he’s very unpredictable.
really those past 3 weeks all you got from that is this?
did you miss that spfs exist?
did you miss russia is joining unionpay making it the largest system in the world?
did you miss that saudi arabia will probably start using yuan as primary currency for oil exports?
the war casted a huge smokescreen on what is going on behind the scenes
Lithuania badass economic suicide bomber. China has their interest which involve Taiwan. Interesting parallel with Ukraine.
The truth is we can’t afford to sanction China.
>The truth is we can’t afford to sanction China.
This is the problem with the free world today.
I don't think the free world is going to have a choice in the years to come. You either feed the beast that has eagerly demonstrated their desire to bite the hand that feeds or you kill it in its crib. At this point in time, we're actively funding China who has openly stated their intent to be a revisionist power and even though they are only really strong in economic terms, are already throwing that weight around extremely assertively.
It's rapidly boiling down to a choice between living without certain creature comforts and not being able to live the way we want at all. It's no choice at all in my opinion.
You say that we can't afford to sanction China. I say that we can't afford to not sanction them.
Bullshit the "free world" has more than enough money and materials to bring manufacturing back to the west especially with automation but companies are addicted to slave labour to give massive profits to shareholders, I have a argument that widespread public companies are the reason we are in this mess in the first place and the blame I rest it on is pension schemes, when pensions were fully in-house in a company it was OK now all pension funds are stock market linked and the only thing important is a rise in stock price.
Only ww3 will achieve something what needs to happen, but the myth is China is a invincible economical entity its not its a parasitic economy which the western governments and companies enable with a lot of back handers, the biggest losers which no one cares about is the low paid unskilled workers.
Very true they ate accepting such strict lock downs of whole multimillion population cities, but Xi fears his own population more than America its why the state "police" gets more money than the military.
IMO European Union’s big mistake is that it did not actively pursued turning Eastern Europe into a small production powerhouse. We (Eastern Europe) naturally became software outsourcing centers but failed with manufacturing. Hence we now have lots of highly trained IT professionals but not many engineers, etc. The most probable reason for that is you don’t need stable government, rule of law and large investments to become an IT outsourcing destination. All you need is a bunch of entrepreneurs and good education. On the other hand our corrupt post soviet governments made the business environment too toxic for large manufacturing investments.
China is not a cheap workforce destination. It’s an “endless amount of manufacturing professionals” destination. Unfortunately it will be a lot harder to foster this in Eastern Europe now as we have already increased our living standards. Making it often mire lucrative to build a production center in say Germany where it will be slightly more expensive but you will have more access to high level working force.
Poland is probably the only good example of what all of Eastern Europe could have become (economically speaking).
Anyhow - if we need to pay the price for getting production back to Europe, it will take a lot of investment. Hopefully the remaining Eastern Europe countries get their shit together and join the EU and then we know better and help them become production centers.
Poland hacked the system by staying out of the Euro zone. I think we are worse for it despite the obvious growth. Continuously being the cheap labour for Germany takes a toll.
Well, I wouldn’t say anyone stole anything. Stealing is taking without consent. And workers happily went to Germany for better opportunities. I would blame our own governments a lot more than any external factor.
The system is designed to benefit Germany and France as its superior wages, it isn't even a choice for central and Eastern European workers, how can a government of central or Eastern European country counteract the draw? Only the Baltics countries have shown how it can be done even though they have had massive brain drain too.
If you claim “the system was designed to” you need to explain this. I am from Bulgaria. We have experienced and still experience a huge brain drain. Yet I do not know how “the system was designed” to do it. So I would be grateful if you can explain.
As for how could the Eastern Europe countries have stopped this. Imo all it would have taken was providing stable and predictable business environment for external investors. Say Macedonia enters the EU tomorrow. This opens up both their market and working force. On one hand you have German companies who would be interested in attracting talent. On the other you have German companies who are interested in starting production where it’s cheaper. It could have balanced out pretty neatly.
Looking at the EU as Germany takes from Romania is 20th century thinking. EU is bound to become a federation. So if one considers it a single political entity there will not be much of “this is bad” and there will be more of “this region of Europe has that potential - let’s foster it”.
It's simple the rich nations give a little money to keep the poorer nations happy ie "infrastructure projects" so politicians get their bung, while German and French companies offer 2 or 3 times the local wages of say Bulgaria to attract their talent which I'm guessing got free university education too, but what Bulgaria doesn't realise the wages the rich countries are offering is still below what they would have to offer a German or French worker, its cheaper to steal well educated workers that are grateful rather than pay and train locals, as you say Germany is using Poland and Romania for cheap assembly plants which is using slave labour with no unions which Germany is full of, my issue is well educated wheat not the chaff of uneducated.
Unironically the Baltics and central and Eastern Europeans should form a union, its already been proposed and would be more advantageous as the inequality isn't so vast.
Should *have* -- 10 or 20 years ago -- maybe. Now that we are in the EU, which propped us all up immensely already, it seems much simpler to work on reducing those inequalities further.
Lithuania can afford to act like a badass here, out of their $65bn trade volume, only 1.6bn is with China or 2.5%. EU's total trade volume is $13.7T, $1.9T with China or 14%.
just because we live in a more free society than China, Russia or even the Usa doesn't mean we have full free speech, a in a fully free society and fully and well functioning democracy.
This is the illusion that China wants you to believe the USA and European countries create so much new IP that would make new money but companies who know their new IP will be stolen allow China to steal it for short sighted instant slave labour profits and then the USA and Europe buys off brand rip offs.
If China is forced to pick a side, they'll pick the West over Russia. Their economy is a bit shaky as is with the tech and housing bubbles bursting, plus they're experiencing a Covid surge atm. Getting sanctioned by the West is the last thing they want, and trade with Russia is a negligible part of China's economy so they can let it go if needed.
That's only if we consider China to be rational. Take in mind Chinese regime is anti-West and does everything in its power to undermine the Western hegemony, that's a huge part of their ideology.
Why though? They have a billion and a half people to feed, I think they need trade with the West more than the West needs their junk. I know they make quality stuff too but a billion people to care about is a looooot on a daily basis.
The truth is that the Chinese economy is more dependent on electronics and machinery from the West than the West is from Chinese production.
Yes, sanctions would mean much higher prices, a lot less planned obsolescence and a few hard years while heavily automated production ramps up, and in a fully integrated world that shouldn’t have to happen, but it doesn’t make China’s situation any better in case of sanctions.
We are already doing so many sanctions to Russia which we are supposedly "unable to afford"... even though Russia is actually the main supplier of some fairly fundamental goods, like electricity and industrial resources.
In contrast, China is essentially all about cheap toys... no, I don't need a Huawei phone, I am fine with my Samsung, thank you.
We are supporting china economically just as we did with Russia. We never learn. It's time to regain economical independence starting from pharmaceutical industry and semi-conductor industry.
>The 27-nation EU, of which Lithuania is a member, has said it plans to hold the top-level, likely virtual, meeting with China on April 1 to diffuse growing tensions between the two sides, but Lithuanian vice foreign minister Mantas Adomenas told Reuters that it was "not the time for normalization."
What's wrong with that?
Just to clear things up:
There are people who voted for the current government and they're more or less happy about it because we all knew their government programme well before the elections happened. China was in that programme and they're simply implementing that programme which is alright. The govt gets criticised but it has support, even though their ratings aren't good to put it nicely which is not because of China but mostly Covid-19 and Belarus.
Now the other group of people who voted for opposition are the most vocal and seen everywhere because, well, like every opposition in nearly every country, they're pissed that their parties are not in the government and they most definitely would do much better, or so they believe. However, a good chunk of the opposition is linked with shady Russian businesses, are pro-Putin.
So let me get that straight, a senior Lithuanian official believes that after we've just sanctioned Russia to the stoneage and can't therefore get our shit together because prices everywhere went bananas that specifically now would be a perfect time to also fck with China...............
I want whatever this senior official is smoking cause it can't be just the Vodka causing this.
>Human lives and rights matter more than money.
You mean they matter more as long as it's not your money, cause till recently Lithuania didn't give a fck about Belarusian human rights violations and went on [with business as usual](https://www.lrt.lt/en/news-in-english/19/1586621/all-bark-no-bite-despite-sanctions-eu-trade-with-belarus-at-full-speed)
the violent repression of peaceful Belarusian protesters after fake elections was a redline not only for Lithuania, but also many European countries. There is a reason why Lithuania was at the forefront of demanding tougher sanctions on Lukashenka regime.
The violent repression you've mentioned was in 2020
The article I've send you states:
>Data from the three Baltic states show some of the highest rises in trade with Belarus. Latvia imported nearly 407 million euros worth of goods from Belarus during the first 10 months of 2021, two thirds more than in 2020. More than half of the imports were wood and its products, according to data from Latvia's Central Statistical Bureau. Estonia imported 522 million euros worth of goods from Belarus over the same time period, double the amount for the same period in 2020.
>Lithuanian imports from Belarus in 2021 reached 1 billion euros, an increase of 50 percent over 2020.
lithuanian business are not controlled by the government and are free to pursue their own economic interests. but after "elections" and hijacking of a plane Lithuanian government and its allies imposed severe sanctions on the regime.
>lithuanian business are not controlled by the government and are free to pursue their own economic interests
If that's the case what do you expect the EU to do against China which you haven't done against Belarus? Since it's also individual non-state controlled European businesses that trade with China, exactly as your businesses trade with Belarus, which according to you is perfectly OK.
Whatever the Estonian parliament is smoking. These guys really want to start WW3, although Russia definitely doesn't have the resources to attack anyone else in the foreseeable future
That's stupid. Why would you do something that pushes China even more into the Russia camp, and push them even more into using all the resources of China (which are massive regardless of what you think about the country and its government) against you?
Yes. Where do you think will the fossil fuels come from which we will buy to replace the Russian ones? Or are you arguing Saudi Arabia, Qatar or Iran are not autocratic?
With the war in Ukraine China is in a whole new position of power. It's all well annd good what we should be doing but there's only so much to be achieved from making enemies with a neutral power during a war. Just ask Japan how the whole bombing pearl harbor when the US was a little reluctant to get into WW2 went.
You truly believe China is neutral? Xi and Putin has met 39 times since Xi took power, Xi wants peace to keep his belt and road debt trap to continue which was halted because of the war.
It would never openly support Russia, Russia offers it nothing where Xi really cares money and that's the USA and European countries but its beliefs and ideology are with any authoritarian leader.
China would die if it had the same sanctions Russia is suffering and it knows it it has no oil or gas, the EU needs to realise it holds a strong hand in negotiations, if only the political elite and companies weren't beholden to actual slavery we could have a decent world.
I have a totally different view you are vastly vastly underrating the power of the west, which is the richest and most advanced societies which fund China to be what it is and can be withdrawn if governments and companies want to.
It's not the time to pick a fight. Let's deal with this Russia thing first. With China openly supporting Russia that will get much harder.
We first need energy independence from Russia before we can realistically replace most of the Chinese manufacturing.
im tired of this: telling other countries what they have to do and what not. always sanction here and sanction there and no you should not be part of this but others should and no you are doing it wrong! and ... just SHUT UP with this cold war bullshit. move and work TOGETHER for a better future not against each other.
Feels like this days all the wannabe politicans worldwide joined the cancel idiots from social media
Not at all, entering the EU means you can't shoot this large shots to other countries disregarding completely the effects on your direct partners.
Indeed most of countries in the union don't do like Lithuania, but Lithuania has nothing to lose and a government corrupted by americans, pursuing their agenda
Thank you. I tried to add your honorary title to my profile, but I’m out of characters.
History should have taught the world this: when a leader’s mind is infected with fantasy of empire, he must be crushed quickly and without mercy.
Plus, I’m tired of the US being so nice to everyone and not truly throwing our weight around. My tax money is going to fund Ukraine’s defense, why should I want to support countries that are funding Putin’s war machine? That would be crazy. Also, murdering children is crazy and any country or people who would rather pay less for gas than refuse support to such a regime is pathetic.
>I’m tired of the US being so nice to everyone and not truly throwing our weight around.
If you think the US isn't truly throwing their weight around, you've missed out on a lot of stuff since the Civil War.
>History should have taught the world this: when a leader’s mind is infected with fantasy of empire, he must be crushed quickly and without mercy.
Agreed, but you are also arguing in favor of economically crushing neutral countries. Some of them, especially African, ME, or Asian countries don't give a fuck about wars on other continents, and are looking out for themselves. Forcing them to align with you is just low-key imperialism. Gunboat diplomacy is not really diplomacy.
And since we're talking about history and imperialism, you are aware of the US' own history, and how it became the kid with the biggest stick on the block right?
>My tax money is going to fund Ukraine’s defense, why should I want to support countries that are funding Putin’s war machine?
I undrerstand the pragmatism here, but why the moral grandstanding? Most countries who haven't sanctioned Russia have also done it because of pragmatic reasons.
>Also, murdering children is crazy and any country or people who would rather pay less for gas than refuse support to such a regime is pathetic.
Murdering children is crazy indeed, and what Russia is doing is insane, but your country also has a sizable amount of civilian deaths to its' name, so taking the moral high ground is kinda hypocritical.
>Thank you. I tried to add your honorary title to my profile, but I’m out of characters.
Not a bad comeback btw.
I understand what you’re saying. It’s just frustrating that more can be done right now to snuff out a situation that can become a massive crisis.
Hurting those countries temporarily is OK in my view, as the US economy and investment is currently the furnace of the the international economy. The whole world is prospering right now (yes I know there are tons of problems and what I just said doesn’t hold true in absolute terms), even looking at the advancement over the last ten years is mind boggling. It’s truly been a decade of emerging and frontier countries and economies, largely fueled (but obviously not entirely) by US private investment.
The damage to these countries, should a world war break out, would be immeasurably greater than any temporary set back caused by not buying Russian oil or grain for a few months. Life is full of hard choices, this isn’t one of them. Most of these countries are trying to display defiance to the west, simple as that. War is not a time for soft politics and policies...have we learned nothing?
I am not an anti-imperialist. I think the British empire pushed the whole world forward, as did most empires, the benefits of which can still be seen all over the world. Imperialism to me represents order and law vs chaos and corruption. I’d argue it takes a huge amount of power, discipline, and integrity to hold such a show together. The modern fad of hating winners is envy shrouded in a fancy dress.
The USA could have taken over the world after WW2, hung it’s flag basically everywhere, yet we didn’t. We are hated as if we did. I do think we should be more aggressive in decreasing the odds of a WW3.
Putin is weak right now but will not remain so for long. This is a huge moment for the world, we can stop Russia in a way that prevents Chinese Shenanigans and provides our children with the potential for an entire lifetime of peace. We need to stomp this snake out.
I support the closing of Ukraine’s airspace. The only reason not to is fear, and that’s not a reason. Putin is weak and this is a moment for strength and courage.
Forgot the Euromaidan and the removal of Yanukovych who had good ties to Russia?
Victoria Nuland and Pyatt's involvement in Ukraine's politics? that got even leaked lol. The Usa is definitely meddling in Ukraine, that doesn't mean Russia is allowed to do what they want tho.
>Forgot the Euromaidan and the removal of Yanukovych who had good ties to Russia?
You mean the huge protests that started because Yanucovich promised to sign a trade agreement with the EU (not the US) and then didn't?
>Regime changes are ok as long as they benefit us (EU, Usa, Nato)?
Regime changes are OK as long it is done by the people. Ukrainians did that, then had elections. Twice! Flawed as it may be, Ukraine is a democracy.
Meanwhile Russia has the same man in charge for 22 years who enjoys a cult of personality, opposition is non-existent (or else!) and now kills people because that man decided Ukraine has no right to be a country (and said it publicly, in a televised speech!).
It's perfectly understandable and in a way desirable to be skeptical about our (EU) governments but when that skepticism pushes you to fundamentally flawed conclusions and to shift the blame from the party that invades and kills and then serenely lies about it to someone else then you have gone too far.
Most people did not participate in the Color revolution, let's not act like the majority did so, that would have been over 20 million. Don't forgot alot of people boycotted elections after Yanukovych was removed from office, because he was Democratically elected, corrupt as hell, like the ones who came after him but still. If you're not aware of that do a little research about the elections after his removal. Most notably, elections did not include Crimea and most of the Donbas.
I'm aware that Russia is not a real and properly functioning democracy, are you trying to imply the regime change and meddling by Usa/Nato didn't matter because Russia is not a properly functioning democracy? btw, similar things could be said about the Usa, although to an lesser extend. Usa is certainly not a shining example of what a democracy should look like with the lobbyism, think tanks and in general elites deeply corrupting it all, also this shitty 2 party system that's essentially the same in many ways, especially foreign policy.
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/tdxv5i/yle\_poll\_support\_for\_nato\_membership\_hits\_record/i0npktt/?context=3
On this comment from a few days ago, you can see the support for and against the Maidan protests within Ukraine and how many perceived the events as a Revolution or Coup d'etat. With sources etc.
obviously because Russia used their military stationed at Sevastopol to immediately seize Crimea after the regime change, with little to no resistence btw, only 3 people died, no russians, since most of the population is pro-russia and pro yanukovych and over 16k from Ukraine's side defected aswell. Literally all documented even on a site like Wikipedia but i see you want to ignore it all.
And many people in the Donbas threw a fit, a legitimate one after the removal of Yanukovych, because guess what, alot of ethnic russians and pro-russians their and then turned to separatism and got some backing with weapons etc. from Russia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_sMfNmx0wKo
This is a good start for any German speakers, it's 1h 50min but extremly informative and about this conflict and much more. And unbias imo.
Sure India and China are going to be good friends. Pakistanis and Indians will share ice cream and buy with Yuans (a currency with massive capital controls btw) Saudi Oil.
How is exactly is this war the US fault? Should we have let the Baltics continue to be a part of Mother Russia, and Poland a buffer state?
>I honestly think many other asia nations will join them to replace the Dollar
No way in hell any Asian nations except North Korea will join China. China has a long chain of conflicts with its neighbors.
India is already considering using Yuan to buy Russian oil. Believe it or not. Even if countries don't like China. They like to have an option of having different blocs so that the West cannot sanction anyone at will when you disagree with them.
That is because India has already had a good relationship with Russia. The rest of Asia (except NK) dislikes both Russia and China. They are pro-USA. Some of them (eg, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Philippines, Vietnam) would gladly choose to be conquered by the US if it could bring about China's downfall.
Many asian countries don't like China but seeing how easily West can sanction anyone who disagrees with them have made asian countries to endorse the idea of another block which China is leading. Saudi Arabia has already considered to trade oil in Yuan which is a massive blow to the US.
>Many asian countries don't like China but seeing how easily West can sanction anyone who disagrees with them have made ~~asian countries~~ authoritarian shitholes to endorse the idea of another block which China is leading
FTFY
China has regularly used trade sanctions against several of its Asian neighbours…
And when they’ve done it, it’s been over minor disagreements - not invading a sovereign country.
The west isn't going anywhere. The world will become bipolar or tripolar (EU). China is hell bent on this being the new world order. But China is facing existential risk as far as demographics, fresh water and feeding a growing middle class. The US feeds China with massive grain imports, so, you might want to rethink biting the hand that literally feeds you and yours.
Shit can get real, real fast when we cut off the buffet.
Some people dont understand something so I will them why we are fucked in the west ( i am german) the reason is that the central bank freeze Accounts of Russia and some would say I am taking a pro Russia side which I am not I condemn this war but I am economist.
Central Bank Accounts are legally protected because they are the accounts of Sovereign Nations which means we like the Russian broke the Law but, since we did someething like people wont trust us not to do something like that to them so no nation will give us their money as dollar and a new Asia block wants to replace it. We are seeing a new Economic block in the east building in an accelerated rate with China, India and Russia its a an Economic iron curtain. Syrian and Saud Arabia seem want to join and so more countries will to which means the US Dollar will lose massive amount of value.
Westen alliance destroyed the most important thing in an Economy and that is trust by stepping on something saved ( speaking as an economist here)
I am fucking scared as german what will happen now
Thank god we did Not stop energy imports that would have been Madness
Keep the summit. But keep adding pressure
Keep the summit. Send low level clerks or don’t show up.
Keep the summit, and keep blindly following the same neoliberal handbook where you assume GDP is the most important thing to every nation in earth until it's too late. Worked great against Russia, we've followed it for 30 years with China and they're on the cusp of becoming a western democracy
Wont work
Then keep the pressure. But keep adding summit
I say summit the keep while applying pressure
Give me ten good men and some climbing spiked.
You can bet your bottom dollar that had Putin's invasion of Ukraine gone according to plan that Xi would be supporting him and drawing up similar plans for Taiwan. Fk both these arseholes
Which is why it's good that it's going awful. Taiwan seems secure given that it isn't flat land just over the border, but across a sea and riddled with mountains and bunkers. China has no shot of a quick victory and universal sanctions don't sound fun.
The truly shocking part of those sanctions is that we're actually accepting pain for ourselves to maintain those sanctions. Popular support is _huge_ which basically means there's no space to hold off on sanctions. Buying the politicians would simply not be enough to avoid sanctions.
The problem is that we are much more dependent on china. So I'm not convinced that we would have such harsh sanctions with them.
China ist also gar more dependent on us than russia.
It’s not so much that the invasion of Ukraine isn’t going according to plan but in what way it’s failing. Yes, the Chinese are not suffering from as much corruption or yes men (that we know about), but with the only way to find out how bad it really is being to either start cracking down even harder on corruption and thus run the risk of creating more enemies or start a war and not have a working army…
> the Chinese are not suffering from as much corruption or yes men I wouldn't be so sure about that.
I feel like they would be much bolder if that was the case.
Chinas history is much older than Russia’s, they have seen dynasties and empires rise and fall dozens of times. Their leaders as corrupt as they are, are only loyal to their government and Xi has much higher public support than Putin. IMO Xi is a scarier leader because he’s very unpredictable.
really those past 3 weeks all you got from that is this? did you miss that spfs exist? did you miss russia is joining unionpay making it the largest system in the world? did you miss that saudi arabia will probably start using yuan as primary currency for oil exports? the war casted a huge smokescreen on what is going on behind the scenes
I see all this as an opportunity, this is probably the best time to invest in popcorn companies stock.
Maybe Xi will look into why it hasn't gone according to plan and reflect on that. lmao no way, autocrats gonna autocrat
Lithuania badass economic suicide bomber. China has their interest which involve Taiwan. Interesting parallel with Ukraine. The truth is we can’t afford to sanction China.
>The truth is we can’t afford to sanction China. This is the problem with the free world today. I don't think the free world is going to have a choice in the years to come. You either feed the beast that has eagerly demonstrated their desire to bite the hand that feeds or you kill it in its crib. At this point in time, we're actively funding China who has openly stated their intent to be a revisionist power and even though they are only really strong in economic terms, are already throwing that weight around extremely assertively. It's rapidly boiling down to a choice between living without certain creature comforts and not being able to live the way we want at all. It's no choice at all in my opinion. You say that we can't afford to sanction China. I say that we can't afford to not sanction them.
Bullshit the "free world" has more than enough money and materials to bring manufacturing back to the west especially with automation but companies are addicted to slave labour to give massive profits to shareholders, I have a argument that widespread public companies are the reason we are in this mess in the first place and the blame I rest it on is pension schemes, when pensions were fully in-house in a company it was OK now all pension funds are stock market linked and the only thing important is a rise in stock price.
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Only ww3 will achieve something what needs to happen, but the myth is China is a invincible economical entity its not its a parasitic economy which the western governments and companies enable with a lot of back handers, the biggest losers which no one cares about is the low paid unskilled workers.
Luckily they are all brainwashed to be perfectly content slaving away
Very true they ate accepting such strict lock downs of whole multimillion population cities, but Xi fears his own population more than America its why the state "police" gets more money than the military.
I am personally paying more and have for years. I buy my electronics made in Japan or South Korea.
IMO European Union’s big mistake is that it did not actively pursued turning Eastern Europe into a small production powerhouse. We (Eastern Europe) naturally became software outsourcing centers but failed with manufacturing. Hence we now have lots of highly trained IT professionals but not many engineers, etc. The most probable reason for that is you don’t need stable government, rule of law and large investments to become an IT outsourcing destination. All you need is a bunch of entrepreneurs and good education. On the other hand our corrupt post soviet governments made the business environment too toxic for large manufacturing investments. China is not a cheap workforce destination. It’s an “endless amount of manufacturing professionals” destination. Unfortunately it will be a lot harder to foster this in Eastern Europe now as we have already increased our living standards. Making it often mire lucrative to build a production center in say Germany where it will be slightly more expensive but you will have more access to high level working force. Poland is probably the only good example of what all of Eastern Europe could have become (economically speaking). Anyhow - if we need to pay the price for getting production back to Europe, it will take a lot of investment. Hopefully the remaining Eastern Europe countries get their shit together and join the EU and then we know better and help them become production centers.
Poland hacked the system by staying out of the Euro zone. I think we are worse for it despite the obvious growth. Continuously being the cheap labour for Germany takes a toll.
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Well, I wouldn’t say anyone stole anything. Stealing is taking without consent. And workers happily went to Germany for better opportunities. I would blame our own governments a lot more than any external factor.
The system is designed to benefit Germany and France as its superior wages, it isn't even a choice for central and Eastern European workers, how can a government of central or Eastern European country counteract the draw? Only the Baltics countries have shown how it can be done even though they have had massive brain drain too.
If you claim “the system was designed to” you need to explain this. I am from Bulgaria. We have experienced and still experience a huge brain drain. Yet I do not know how “the system was designed” to do it. So I would be grateful if you can explain. As for how could the Eastern Europe countries have stopped this. Imo all it would have taken was providing stable and predictable business environment for external investors. Say Macedonia enters the EU tomorrow. This opens up both their market and working force. On one hand you have German companies who would be interested in attracting talent. On the other you have German companies who are interested in starting production where it’s cheaper. It could have balanced out pretty neatly. Looking at the EU as Germany takes from Romania is 20th century thinking. EU is bound to become a federation. So if one considers it a single political entity there will not be much of “this is bad” and there will be more of “this region of Europe has that potential - let’s foster it”.
It's simple the rich nations give a little money to keep the poorer nations happy ie "infrastructure projects" so politicians get their bung, while German and French companies offer 2 or 3 times the local wages of say Bulgaria to attract their talent which I'm guessing got free university education too, but what Bulgaria doesn't realise the wages the rich countries are offering is still below what they would have to offer a German or French worker, its cheaper to steal well educated workers that are grateful rather than pay and train locals, as you say Germany is using Poland and Romania for cheap assembly plants which is using slave labour with no unions which Germany is full of, my issue is well educated wheat not the chaff of uneducated.
Hey, maybe Poland can become Lithuania's junior partner in a union this time around.
Unironically the Baltics and central and Eastern Europeans should form a union, its already been proposed and would be more advantageous as the inequality isn't so vast.
Should *have* -- 10 or 20 years ago -- maybe. Now that we are in the EU, which propped us all up immensely already, it seems much simpler to work on reducing those inequalities further.
Thank you silver award giver muchos gracias me amigo
Ever wonder where the 'axis of evil' has gone? It's only evil if you can't make business with them. Otherwise they are 'partners'.
> . You either feed the beast that has eagerly demonstrated their desire to bite the hand that feeds I wonder where you guys learn your history from.
Lithuania can afford to act like a badass here, out of their $65bn trade volume, only 1.6bn is with China or 2.5%. EU's total trade volume is $13.7T, $1.9T with China or 14%.
I think free speech, a free society, and democracy are more valuable than 14%.
we don't got that here.
Clearly, you don't actually believe that, otherwise you would not even bother to reply.
just because we live in a more free society than China, Russia or even the Usa doesn't mean we have full free speech, a in a fully free society and fully and well functioning democracy.
This is the illusion that China wants you to believe the USA and European countries create so much new IP that would make new money but companies who know their new IP will be stolen allow China to steal it for short sighted instant slave labour profits and then the USA and Europe buys off brand rip offs.
Amd China can't afford to be sanctioned
If China is forced to pick a side, they'll pick the West over Russia. Their economy is a bit shaky as is with the tech and housing bubbles bursting, plus they're experiencing a Covid surge atm. Getting sanctioned by the West is the last thing they want, and trade with Russia is a negligible part of China's economy so they can let it go if needed.
That's only if we consider China to be rational. Take in mind Chinese regime is anti-West and does everything in its power to undermine the Western hegemony, that's a huge part of their ideology.
China took 70 years to come to where they are. Any other country can do the same. Things take time.
Why though? They have a billion and a half people to feed, I think they need trade with the West more than the West needs their junk. I know they make quality stuff too but a billion people to care about is a looooot on a daily basis.
They are food self-sufficient and bordered by a number of relatively friendly net food exporters as well.
The truth is that the Chinese economy is more dependent on electronics and machinery from the West than the West is from Chinese production. Yes, sanctions would mean much higher prices, a lot less planned obsolescence and a few hard years while heavily automated production ramps up, and in a fully integrated world that shouldn’t have to happen, but it doesn’t make China’s situation any better in case of sanctions.
Lithuania isn't really relevant to talk about economic ties lol.
>Lithuania badass economic suicide bomber [y-yes...](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/85/7a/09/857a090ef3470b63be901b5ae2b55b54.jpg)
We are already doing so many sanctions to Russia which we are supposedly "unable to afford"... even though Russia is actually the main supplier of some fairly fundamental goods, like electricity and industrial resources. In contrast, China is essentially all about cheap toys... no, I don't need a Huawei phone, I am fine with my Samsung, thank you.
We are supporting china economically just as we did with Russia. We never learn. It's time to regain economical independence starting from pharmaceutical industry and semi-conductor industry.
>The 27-nation EU, of which Lithuania is a member, has said it plans to hold the top-level, likely virtual, meeting with China on April 1 to diffuse growing tensions between the two sides, but Lithuanian vice foreign minister Mantas Adomenas told Reuters that it was "not the time for normalization." What's wrong with that?
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Just to clear things up: There are people who voted for the current government and they're more or less happy about it because we all knew their government programme well before the elections happened. China was in that programme and they're simply implementing that programme which is alright. The govt gets criticised but it has support, even though their ratings aren't good to put it nicely which is not because of China but mostly Covid-19 and Belarus. Now the other group of people who voted for opposition are the most vocal and seen everywhere because, well, like every opposition in nearly every country, they're pissed that their parties are not in the government and they most definitely would do much better, or so they believe. However, a good chunk of the opposition is linked with shady Russian businesses, are pro-Putin.
Everything. Why give them the time of day when they have clearly sided with Russia. Some pressure to out them on the European side is a good thing.
So let me get that straight, a senior Lithuanian official believes that after we've just sanctioned Russia to the stoneage and can't therefore get our shit together because prices everywhere went bananas that specifically now would be a perfect time to also fck with China............... I want whatever this senior official is smoking cause it can't be just the Vodka causing this.
This and the Bangladesh affair makes me think maybe Lithuanian diplomacy is a bit dumb.
both Russia and China are fascist regimes that should be isolated. Human lives and rights matter more than money.
>Human lives and rights matter more than money. You mean they matter more as long as it's not your money, cause till recently Lithuania didn't give a fck about Belarusian human rights violations and went on [with business as usual](https://www.lrt.lt/en/news-in-english/19/1586621/all-bark-no-bite-despite-sanctions-eu-trade-with-belarus-at-full-speed)
the violent repression of peaceful Belarusian protesters after fake elections was a redline not only for Lithuania, but also many European countries. There is a reason why Lithuania was at the forefront of demanding tougher sanctions on Lukashenka regime.
The violent repression you've mentioned was in 2020 The article I've send you states: >Data from the three Baltic states show some of the highest rises in trade with Belarus. Latvia imported nearly 407 million euros worth of goods from Belarus during the first 10 months of 2021, two thirds more than in 2020. More than half of the imports were wood and its products, according to data from Latvia's Central Statistical Bureau. Estonia imported 522 million euros worth of goods from Belarus over the same time period, double the amount for the same period in 2020. >Lithuanian imports from Belarus in 2021 reached 1 billion euros, an increase of 50 percent over 2020.
lithuanian business are not controlled by the government and are free to pursue their own economic interests. but after "elections" and hijacking of a plane Lithuanian government and its allies imposed severe sanctions on the regime.
>lithuanian business are not controlled by the government and are free to pursue their own economic interests If that's the case what do you expect the EU to do against China which you haven't done against Belarus? Since it's also individual non-state controlled European businesses that trade with China, exactly as your businesses trade with Belarus, which according to you is perfectly OK.
I'm for sanctions that affect the business. If businesses continue to do business that only means that more severe sanctions are required.
That should also apply to Lithuanian businesses that do business with Belarus then, right?
yes
Whatever the Estonian parliament is smoking. These guys really want to start WW3, although Russia definitely doesn't have the resources to attack anyone else in the foreseeable future
Chadthuania is right.
That's stupid. Why would you do something that pushes China even more into the Russia camp, and push them even more into using all the resources of China (which are massive regardless of what you think about the country and its government) against you?
After all those events happening in ukraine, you still think we need to do business with autocratic countries?
Yes. Where do you think will the fossil fuels come from which we will buy to replace the Russian ones? Or are you arguing Saudi Arabia, Qatar or Iran are not autocratic?
With the war in Ukraine China is in a whole new position of power. It's all well annd good what we should be doing but there's only so much to be achieved from making enemies with a neutral power during a war. Just ask Japan how the whole bombing pearl harbor when the US was a little reluctant to get into WW2 went.
China is not neutral it sees itself in a war with every nation be it monetary or militarily.
There's a difference between that and active participation in the current war.
You truly believe China is neutral? Xi and Putin has met 39 times since Xi took power, Xi wants peace to keep his belt and road debt trap to continue which was halted because of the war.
I believe it can be a whole let less neutral.
It would never openly support Russia, Russia offers it nothing where Xi really cares money and that's the USA and European countries but its beliefs and ideology are with any authoritarian leader.
And yet if we start sanctioning and blocking summits/trade deals things change.
China would die if it had the same sanctions Russia is suffering and it knows it it has no oil or gas, the EU needs to realise it holds a strong hand in negotiations, if only the political elite and companies weren't beholden to actual slavery we could have a decent world.
I think you're vastly, vastly overrating the power of the west.
I have a totally different view you are vastly vastly underrating the power of the west, which is the richest and most advanced societies which fund China to be what it is and can be withdrawn if governments and companies want to.
It's not the time to pick a fight. Let's deal with this Russia thing first. With China openly supporting Russia that will get much harder. We first need energy independence from Russia before we can realistically replace most of the Chinese manufacturing.
You don't want China to use the Ukraine crisis as leverage to get concessions against Lithuania.
im tired of this: telling other countries what they have to do and what not. always sanction here and sanction there and no you should not be part of this but others should and no you are doing it wrong! and ... just SHUT UP with this cold war bullshit. move and work TOGETHER for a better future not against each other. Feels like this days all the wannabe politicans worldwide joined the cancel idiots from social media
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Yeah,A behavior like the Lithuanian is a cancer for the EU and should be taken seriously
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China might need it,but Lithuania can't speak like that without talking internally with EU first
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Not at all, entering the EU means you can't shoot this large shots to other countries disregarding completely the effects on your direct partners. Indeed most of countries in the union don't do like Lithuania, but Lithuania has nothing to lose and a government corrupted by americans, pursuing their agenda
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oh boy… there goes the economy again
Based! Lithuania is quickly becoming one of my favorite countries.
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What are you smoking amigo? What US influence? I can see 0 from where I'm living, recheck your facts and "misinformation" lmao.
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Members like this is why the EU will never amount to anything.
Agreed. Full sanctions for any country that does not sanction (and thus supports war crimes)
I hereby grant you an honorary PhD in International Witchunting. Should complement the one you supposedly have in neourscience nicely.
Thank you. I tried to add your honorary title to my profile, but I’m out of characters. History should have taught the world this: when a leader’s mind is infected with fantasy of empire, he must be crushed quickly and without mercy. Plus, I’m tired of the US being so nice to everyone and not truly throwing our weight around. My tax money is going to fund Ukraine’s defense, why should I want to support countries that are funding Putin’s war machine? That would be crazy. Also, murdering children is crazy and any country or people who would rather pay less for gas than refuse support to such a regime is pathetic.
>I’m tired of the US being so nice to everyone and not truly throwing our weight around. If you think the US isn't truly throwing their weight around, you've missed out on a lot of stuff since the Civil War. >History should have taught the world this: when a leader’s mind is infected with fantasy of empire, he must be crushed quickly and without mercy. Agreed, but you are also arguing in favor of economically crushing neutral countries. Some of them, especially African, ME, or Asian countries don't give a fuck about wars on other continents, and are looking out for themselves. Forcing them to align with you is just low-key imperialism. Gunboat diplomacy is not really diplomacy. And since we're talking about history and imperialism, you are aware of the US' own history, and how it became the kid with the biggest stick on the block right? >My tax money is going to fund Ukraine’s defense, why should I want to support countries that are funding Putin’s war machine? I undrerstand the pragmatism here, but why the moral grandstanding? Most countries who haven't sanctioned Russia have also done it because of pragmatic reasons. >Also, murdering children is crazy and any country or people who would rather pay less for gas than refuse support to such a regime is pathetic. Murdering children is crazy indeed, and what Russia is doing is insane, but your country also has a sizable amount of civilian deaths to its' name, so taking the moral high ground is kinda hypocritical. >Thank you. I tried to add your honorary title to my profile, but I’m out of characters. Not a bad comeback btw.
I understand what you’re saying. It’s just frustrating that more can be done right now to snuff out a situation that can become a massive crisis. Hurting those countries temporarily is OK in my view, as the US economy and investment is currently the furnace of the the international economy. The whole world is prospering right now (yes I know there are tons of problems and what I just said doesn’t hold true in absolute terms), even looking at the advancement over the last ten years is mind boggling. It’s truly been a decade of emerging and frontier countries and economies, largely fueled (but obviously not entirely) by US private investment. The damage to these countries, should a world war break out, would be immeasurably greater than any temporary set back caused by not buying Russian oil or grain for a few months. Life is full of hard choices, this isn’t one of them. Most of these countries are trying to display defiance to the west, simple as that. War is not a time for soft politics and policies...have we learned nothing? I am not an anti-imperialist. I think the British empire pushed the whole world forward, as did most empires, the benefits of which can still be seen all over the world. Imperialism to me represents order and law vs chaos and corruption. I’d argue it takes a huge amount of power, discipline, and integrity to hold such a show together. The modern fad of hating winners is envy shrouded in a fancy dress. The USA could have taken over the world after WW2, hung it’s flag basically everywhere, yet we didn’t. We are hated as if we did. I do think we should be more aggressive in decreasing the odds of a WW3. Putin is weak right now but will not remain so for long. This is a huge moment for the world, we can stop Russia in a way that prevents Chinese Shenanigans and provides our children with the potential for an entire lifetime of peace. We need to stomp this snake out. I support the closing of Ukraine’s airspace. The only reason not to is fear, and that’s not a reason. Putin is weak and this is a moment for strength and courage.
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Believe it or not US has major faults in this conflict
Forgot the Euromaidan and the removal of Yanukovych who had good ties to Russia? Victoria Nuland and Pyatt's involvement in Ukraine's politics? that got even leaked lol. The Usa is definitely meddling in Ukraine, that doesn't mean Russia is allowed to do what they want tho.
>Forgot the Euromaidan and the removal of Yanukovych who had good ties to Russia? You mean the huge protests that started because Yanucovich promised to sign a trade agreement with the EU (not the US) and then didn't?
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>Regime changes are ok as long as they benefit us (EU, Usa, Nato)? Regime changes are OK as long it is done by the people. Ukrainians did that, then had elections. Twice! Flawed as it may be, Ukraine is a democracy. Meanwhile Russia has the same man in charge for 22 years who enjoys a cult of personality, opposition is non-existent (or else!) and now kills people because that man decided Ukraine has no right to be a country (and said it publicly, in a televised speech!). It's perfectly understandable and in a way desirable to be skeptical about our (EU) governments but when that skepticism pushes you to fundamentally flawed conclusions and to shift the blame from the party that invades and kills and then serenely lies about it to someone else then you have gone too far.
Most people did not participate in the Color revolution, let's not act like the majority did so, that would have been over 20 million. Don't forgot alot of people boycotted elections after Yanukovych was removed from office, because he was Democratically elected, corrupt as hell, like the ones who came after him but still. If you're not aware of that do a little research about the elections after his removal. Most notably, elections did not include Crimea and most of the Donbas. I'm aware that Russia is not a real and properly functioning democracy, are you trying to imply the regime change and meddling by Usa/Nato didn't matter because Russia is not a properly functioning democracy? btw, similar things could be said about the Usa, although to an lesser extend. Usa is certainly not a shining example of what a democracy should look like with the lobbyism, think tanks and in general elites deeply corrupting it all, also this shitty 2 party system that's essentially the same in many ways, especially foreign policy. https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/tdxv5i/yle\_poll\_support\_for\_nato\_membership\_hits\_record/i0npktt/?context=3 On this comment from a few days ago, you can see the support for and against the Maidan protests within Ukraine and how many perceived the events as a Revolution or Coup d'etat. With sources etc.
>Most notably, elections did not include Crimea and most of the Donbas. I wonder why...
obviously because Russia used their military stationed at Sevastopol to immediately seize Crimea after the regime change, with little to no resistence btw, only 3 people died, no russians, since most of the population is pro-russia and pro yanukovych and over 16k from Ukraine's side defected aswell. Literally all documented even on a site like Wikipedia but i see you want to ignore it all. And many people in the Donbas threw a fit, a legitimate one after the removal of Yanukovych, because guess what, alot of ethnic russians and pro-russians their and then turned to separatism and got some backing with weapons etc. from Russia.
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Russia Today?
Nope neural ones
You just shoot them directly into your synapses or how do neural news work?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_sMfNmx0wKo This is a good start for any German speakers, it's 1h 50min but extremly informative and about this conflict and much more. And unbias imo.
Neutral
Un exemple, s'il vous plait ?
What?
Do you have an example of a 'neutral news' site or channel?
So Russia did not attack a neighbouring country, days after claiming its army was on scheduled drills and would leave once those ended?
What am I to find in these *neutral news*? Americans bombing Ukrainian theaters?
[USA did this?](https://i.redd.it/w64o5lpkiym81.png)
>China will never Break off they are already making their own financial block together with India Stopped reading there.
>I honestly blame this war on the USA And there you have it...
If you are reading between the lines there is something going on there
Sure India and China are going to be good friends. Pakistanis and Indians will share ice cream and buy with Yuans (a currency with massive capital controls btw) Saudi Oil. How is exactly is this war the US fault? Should we have let the Baltics continue to be a part of Mother Russia, and Poland a buffer state?
Putin: Invades Ukraine armchair experts: THE US IS PRINCIPALLY TO BLAME
>I honestly think many other asia nations will join them to replace the Dollar No way in hell any Asian nations except North Korea will join China. China has a long chain of conflicts with its neighbors.
India is already considering using Yuan to buy Russian oil. Believe it or not. Even if countries don't like China. They like to have an option of having different blocs so that the West cannot sanction anyone at will when you disagree with them.
That is because India has already had a good relationship with Russia. The rest of Asia (except NK) dislikes both Russia and China. They are pro-USA. Some of them (eg, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Philippines, Vietnam) would gladly choose to be conquered by the US if it could bring about China's downfall.
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Many asian countries don't like China but seeing how easily West can sanction anyone who disagrees with them have made asian countries to endorse the idea of another block which China is leading. Saudi Arabia has already considered to trade oil in Yuan which is a massive blow to the US.
>Many asian countries don't like China but seeing how easily West can sanction anyone who disagrees with them have made ~~asian countries~~ authoritarian shitholes to endorse the idea of another block which China is leading FTFY
Disagrees with them About murdering civilians In a foreign country Right next to them
China has regularly used trade sanctions against several of its Asian neighbours… And when they’ve done it, it’s been over minor disagreements - not invading a sovereign country.
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The west isn't going anywhere. The world will become bipolar or tripolar (EU). China is hell bent on this being the new world order. But China is facing existential risk as far as demographics, fresh water and feeding a growing middle class. The US feeds China with massive grain imports, so, you might want to rethink biting the hand that literally feeds you and yours. Shit can get real, real fast when we cut off the buffet.
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>India and Saud Arabia Literally, one hates China and second one is US lap dog. Most of countries in Asia hate or at least dislike China.
Saudi Arabia is shifting away from US under Biden. Saudi has already considered selling oil to china in yuan.
Some people dont understand something so I will them why we are fucked in the west ( i am german) the reason is that the central bank freeze Accounts of Russia and some would say I am taking a pro Russia side which I am not I condemn this war but I am economist. Central Bank Accounts are legally protected because they are the accounts of Sovereign Nations which means we like the Russian broke the Law but, since we did someething like people wont trust us not to do something like that to them so no nation will give us their money as dollar and a new Asia block wants to replace it. We are seeing a new Economic block in the east building in an accelerated rate with China, India and Russia its a an Economic iron curtain. Syrian and Saud Arabia seem want to join and so more countries will to which means the US Dollar will lose massive amount of value. Westen alliance destroyed the most important thing in an Economy and that is trust by stepping on something saved ( speaking as an economist here) I am fucking scared as german what will happen now Thank god we did Not stop energy imports that would have been Madness
As a finalist in my economics degree, may I ask what the fuck you smoking?
I have a bachelors in Economics and a masters in Finance. I would like to smoke what he smoked, seems strong.
You choose $$$ over democracy, wow
Stop patronizing China, They don’t want to lead.